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Sunday, September 17, 2006
If It Was a Prize Fight, It Would Have Been Stopped at the First Commercial Break
Posted by: Dean Barnett at 12:08 PM

I just finished watching the George Allen – Jim Webb debate on “Meet the Press.” For conservatives wishing for Allen to retain his seat, their best hope is that Virginians were otherwise occupied this morning or that the state’s NBC outlets were having technical difficulties.

Before offering my analysis, I should confess a pre-existing fondness for Jim Webb. Like virtually everyone who has read some of his books, I respect him as an artist but even more as a man. Webb is a war hero, an outspoken and outsized intellectual, a patriot who has tirelessly served his country, and all-in-all a tremendously admirable individual. Our political system is richer when people like Jim Webb decide to enter it.

That being said, I didn’t think Webb would be a very good politician. Webb’s background didn’t suggest that he would take to the tasks that a politician must constantly assume – relentless and humiliating fundraising, the endless happy tolerance of fools, and an uncanny ability to condense complex issues into 90 second sound-bites.

I should also say that given the vital partisan stakes involved this election season that Hugh and I have frequently discussed here, I squarely and unequivocally support Allen’s re-election.

Or at least I did until this morning’s debate. Now I’m not so sure.

IT WOULDN’T BE FAIR TO ALLEN to ignore the fact that he had to deal with being double-teamed by Webb and “Meet the Press” host Tim Russert. Still, Webb outclassed Allen in every aspect of the clash.

When it was time to talk about the candidates’ biographies, Allen really didn’t have a chance. There aren’t too many people in America who have biographies that compare with Webb’s.

The biggest surprise was what a nimble and effective political debater Webb turned out to be. At one point, Russert thrust into Webb’s face an article Webb had written in 1979 where he said that women should not and essentially could not lead men into combat. The language the young Webb used to make this argument was, shall we say, provocative:

“I have never met a woman, including the dozens of female midshipmen I encountered during my recent semester as a professor at the Naval Academy, whom I would trust to provide those men with combat leadership.” (Emphasis added.)

For some reason, the Allen campaign spotted an opportunity in this ancient article, even though it is a common sense argument that women should not be leading recon missions or commanding infantry. I know not everyone will agree with the previous sentiment, but I’d wager 90% of the population would. So in other words, if you want to win an election and this becomes an issue in the election (which it is thanks only to the remarkably maladroit Allen campaign), you’re better off being with Webb’s 1979 argument than against it.

Again, for reasons that I don’t fully understand, Allen has decided to attack Webb from the left on this issue. When Russert pressed Webb on the matter, Webb was subtle and effective. While he apologized for his intemperate tone and wished that he had been more mature when he wrote the currently controversial article 27 years ago, he refused to throw his argument under the bus. He acknowledged room for women in the military, but he did not surrender the common sense ground that the infantry and similar areas should remain a male preserve.

There were also the notable stylistic differences between the two candidates. Allen seemed like a politician through-and through. Webb seemed like he was intellectually and spiritually slumming while exchanging barbs with Allen and dealing with the sometimes insipid questions from Russert (e.g. “Both of you chew tobacco. Is that a good example to set for the young?”).

Even if Webb weren’t so impressive, Allen might well have cost himself the election with his continuing inept efforts to defuse “Macaca-gate.” Considering that Allen knew the issue was bound to arise in this morning’s debate, his defense of his comments was fairly shocking: He claimed that “macaca” was a word that he just made up on the spot when he called a young Webb volunteer that name while the video-recorder whirred.

When Allen offered this latest explanation, I’m pretty sure even in Massachusetts I heard the sound of half a million Virginia conservatives simultaneously slapping their heads and screaming, “Oy vey!

AS EVERYONE HERE KNOWS, I THINK IT’S A MATTER of considerable import that Republicans maintain control of Congress. But, I have to admit, I can imagine far worse things than having a man like James Webb in the Senate.

Compliments? Complaints? Contact me at Soxblog@aol.com.



View in ascending order View in descending order
NoDonkey writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 12:45 PM
Jim Webb will not get my vote
I vote in Virginia, and all I need to know about Jim Webb is that he's a Democrat.

I will never vote for anyone irresponsible, disloyal and stupid enough to be a member of the vile Democrat Party.

Can't wait to vote against Webb on November 7th. Allen may not be the best candidate but he doesn't have to be - he is not a Democrat.
Dean writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 1:18 PM
NoDonkey
That's a reasonable point of view.
wtex55 writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 1:35 PM
The Adoration of Webb
Dean.....I faithfully read this site daily and look forward to the insight that you and Hugh offer.........however, your willingness to champion a Democrat is disappointing and puzzling at best.Do you really think that Webb would be able to withstand the pressures of Reid and Co? If so, he would be an extreme rarity and one without much influence as evidenced by the recent Libermann debacle.

If he is such a remarkable man with many virtues and a passion for defending his country, why has he aligned himself with a party that scorns values, promotes pacifism, and often acts against the best interest of their country? At best, his judgement is called into question and at worst the sincerity of his spoken beliefs.

I am very disappointed in your effort today and fervently hope that you can clarify your statements and regain a measure of credibility with a former fan of yours.
the scribblers writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 2:39 PM
Webb's virtual TKO
Interesting take, Mr. Barnett. And if your thoughtful post doesn't get you an "Yglesias Award"* nomination, well, then there's something wrong with the system. (Indeed, maybe Mr. Sullivan should consider renaming it the "Barnett Award.")

///

* http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/awards.html
harris writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 2:40 PM
Allen vs Webb
Did we watch the same debate? But then I'm a woman who faced his kind of attitudes in the 70's and 80's. Don't tell me he changed. He obviously hasn't as demonstrated by his squirming answers today. Heck, the little woman should stay in the kitchen where she belongs. I thought it was a big win for Allen, though I am not a huge Allen fan. There's absolutely no way I would vote for Webb after watching the debate this morning.
Arizona Mike writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 3:09 PM
George Allen vs Jim Webb
I had a sick feeling watching Sen. Allen squirm while attempting to address Russert’s Macaca question. I felt sick because there are so many people who don’t follow the inside political stuff the way we all do. Some of these people will either read or hear about his Meet the Press moment from the Webb perspective and cast their ballot for the wrong reason. I cant figure out why anybody, especially an incumbent Republican would subject himself to one of Russert’s nationally televised debates for a state race.
JohnCar writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 3:09 PM
Hello wtex55
wtex55 writes "If he is such a remarkable man with many virtues and a passion for defending his country, why has he aligned himself with a party that scorns values, promotes pacifism, and often acts against the best interest of their country?"

wtex, is it possible the assessment of the man is correct and your assessment of the party is in error?

Dean should be commended for bringing some much needed balance and credibility to Hugh's blog.
Bartemis writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 3:10 PM
What I saw
What this Virginia voter saw was a lot of boilerplate party spin and talking points regurgitated by Webb. And what's the deal with that hairdo? If it wasn't a rug, it sure did sit on top of his head funny. I don't recall there being any gray, either. I'm not all up to speed on Webb's history - I know there are those who say he served with honor and distinction in the military and government but, the talking points blather and the 'do left me with a distinct impression of phoneyness.
Buster writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 4:01 PM
Webb - an unaffordable luxury
Re: "I can imagine far worse things than having a man like James Webb in the Senate."

Maybe we should start "imagining" with Harry Reid as Senate Majority Leader and a host of others whose names shall remain unmentioned (I just finished lunch).

I love your work Dean but as they say take a deep breath and listen to Hugh's interview with Martin Peretz. Even Mr. Peretz cringes at the idea of some of the current incumbents becoming Chairman.

Despite many of his pluses JW would be much more attractive if he were a Republican alternative. Although his vote on many issues if he were a Republican might line up more with Chaffey or Tom Keane, at least he could be counted on for the Leader vote and a Supreme Court nominee. As a Democrat it is highly unlikely he will vote as an independent free spirit. He wouldn't survive the blowback in his caucus!

In the current Democratic Party it is as unlikely that Webb will pull the others along as Casey will influence abortion legislation in favor of pro-life issues.
BB10 writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 4:45 PM
Josh, Is Sen. McCain Also a Loser?
Josh says above: "Webb served in the military. Wow, now what? Oh, he served in the military in the only war we lost. Loser"

By your logic, is Sen. McCain a loser too?

And McCain got captured. By your logic, does that make him worse than Webb?

I'll look forward to your further thoughts.
NoDonkey writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 6:17 PM
That's a reasonable point of view.
Thanks for agreeing with me.

It's entirely reasonable to vote against Democrats at each and every opportunity, when in my view they have slandered our Commander in Chief and have undermined our military during a time of war for partisan political gain.

Disagreeing with policy is one thing, lying about that policy and then working to undermine it is something I cannot and will not forgive.

If I live to be 100 I will never forgive the Democrat Party for what they've done since 9/11. I can't respond to people like Jim Webb and his party in any meaningful way except by voting against them at each and every opportunity.
Gary  writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 6:59 PM
With All Due Respect
I'm just reading the transcript of the debate &, frankly, I'm not impressed with Webb at all. Here's one of his lines that's telling:

We didn’t go into Iraq because of terrorism, we have terrorists in Iraq because we went in there.

OH REALLY, MR. WEBB??? What about Abu Nidal? What about Salman Pak, which documents have proven was a terrorist training camp, with terrorists getting training in hijacking, bombmaking & suicide bombings? Give me a break.

Dean, Charisma's nice. BUT THE TRUTH MATTERS & Webb damaged himself by not being truthful with that statement. Bet on the Allen Campaign using that line in a commercial.
park writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 7:00 PM
Dean, I just watched the debate...
Dean,

When I first read your post my heart sank. I am not a pit bull for Sen. Allen, nor am I a Webb hater. I am a Conservative. I know what is at stake in the Mid-terms so when I read that Allen had his proverbial pants pulled down in front of the nation and was spanked by Webb I was concerned.

I just watched the debate and I must say I am genuinely mystified by your analysis. Sen. Allen isn't the fastest gun in the west I know but he was NOT destroyed in the debate- not by a long shot. Perhaps your prior experience with Sec. Webb has clouded your view. My only concern is rather over the top lament of the man you say you support will add some wind to the sail those who would in fact make Pat Leahy chairman of the JC in the senate.

regards,

Park
ChairmanMao writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 7:35 PM
The last war is history
Don't tell me what you did the last time.
Tell me what you are doing for this war.

We all knew another man who was excellent with words, who is smart, courageous, extremely well-read (he has read an average of two or three books each week since he was a teenager) and he can be affable, a good listener who with distinction served his country.

His name is Aldrich Ames and he is one of the coldest, bloodiest, traitors this country has ever produced.

Every argument, every position, every stance has to be viewed as it supports our troops in the current conflict. Not white collars in Washington but how it supports the men spilling their blood in the deserts of the Middle East.

John Kerry is a disgraced Viet Nam hero.
And so is Randy (Duke) Cunningham

The list is still open.

It is always the same with Republicans being 'nice,' having the right backgroung is paramount to everything else.

Democrats don't know how to be a minority. Republicans are scared of being a majority.
arayem writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 8:31 PM
Allen vs, Webb
I didn't see the debate but I read the transcript. Webb's policy toward Iraq sounded terribly facile - we tell the Iraqis we don't want to colonize them and turn the whole thing over to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. I also didn't know Webb opposed the first Gulf War, so if he had his way Saddam would not only be the dictator of Iraq but Kuwait (and maybe Saudi Arabia) as well. His remark about woman wanting to attend the Military Academy because they were horny was incredibly sophmoric.
JohnCar writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 8:37 PM
Hello Gary
You said: "What about Salman Pak, which documents have proven was a terrorist training camp, with terrorists getting training in hijacking, bombmaking & suicide bombings? Give me a break."

Salman was a hoax pushed by the usual disingenuous Hannity-style hacks. The CIA and MI5 helped Saddam set the place up for counter-terrorism training after Iran hijacked one of their planes in the '80s.

Even a serial fabulist like Cheney wouldn't dare float it as a genuine link to Islamic terrorism.

Mr.Webb was right.
Philly writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 8:54 PM
NBC decides voter's choices??
I guess I dissent from the view that I just cannot believe voters in Va., except perhaps in some parts of N. Va., will ever be influenced by an NBC debate! The Tidelands will not be. Allen is a decent guy and Webb is a Dem whose marching orders will be from Reid, Kennedy, Leahy, Biden, and the rest of the usual suspects. Webb will not make our nation safer since he will go along with the socialist pacifists of the Left. Period. His values voting will not be conservative. He will not want W's jurists confirmed. He will not expand or make permanent tax cuts. C'mon Dean, I know you are young and an idealist, but no Dem. is worth losing not only Congress, but perhaps our national security and judicial future.
Chris M. writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 9:06 PM
Allen versus Webb
I think I saw a different debate also. I thought Allen easily swatted away the ridiculous macaca and Confederate flag canards, while Webb fumbled the equally ridiculous women in combat questions. Allen masterfully pinned Webb down advocating redeployment (cut and run) and than ridiculed his opposition to the 4 bases we are building in Iraq for force protection. Webb insisted the bases were going to be permanant US bases. His plan for Iraq is have GW immediately issue a statement we have no interest in occupying Iraq and talk to Syria and Iran....Then cut and run in 2 years.

Also I'm former USMC and am tired of these chickenhawk attacks from Dem candidates like Webb against Cheney, Bush, Allen etc.. I'll follow them before Cleland, Webb, Kerry et. al...On the Republican side because McCain was a pilot and Hagel a Sargeant in Vietnam that gives them more moral authority and foriegn affair and security expertise than someone who hasn't served...what a crock.

Overall a good performance for Allen. I like his folksy optimism...kinda like RWR.
Dave in Centreville writes: Sunday, September, 17, 2006 9:10 PM
George Allen was terrible
George Allen was terrible on Meet the Press. He wouldn't even try to answer the questions, and just spouted meaningless doubletalk.

I know that a Senators do not run foreign policy and do not run the military. But at least they can and should ask tough questions when asking them might do some good. I'm looking for a Senator who will do that.







Fred writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 2:05 AM
Allen vs Webb
"...an uncanny ability to condense complex issues into 90 second sound-bites..."

Unfortunately, that's last century thinking. Today, politicians are expected to summarize the old 90-second sound bit into an 8-word sentence, preferably including such words as "It's," "All,"
"Bush's" and "Fault."
Prysson writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 10:53 AM
Late to the Party
But I see Dean's been dominating the beer keg.

I cant disagree that Webb came off better in teh debate, but I just don't think its going to have a significant impact on the race.

Noone watches Meet the Press but political junkies and I don't think those votes are up for grabs anyway. I personally dont think enough people in Virginia watched Meet the Press to decide the outcome. Webb may gain a point or two but havgin a good day with Tim Russert isn't goign to win him the election.

Having said that, I am not a big Allen fan. He's a republican to be sure but I have never been particularly impressed by him. Still he is the incumbant, he is ahead, he stopped the bleeding after the Mucaca comments and still had a 7-8 point lead.

As much as I hate disagreeing with you Dean I can't see the debate changing things significantly...but hey. Time will tell.
Boozer1000 writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 3:58 PM
Where do the "old fashioned" conservativ
Friends of mine have told me that my politics are about three steps to the right of Genghis Khan. So I find it strange to be disowned by neo-conservatives who insist that my criticism of the Bush administration's position on the Iraq war makes me liberal, defeatist, peace-nik. I, like other conservatives such as George Will, Bob Novak, and Pat Buchanan, opposed the Iraq war before we invaded. It was a major foreign policy mistake and we need to vote out candidates (like Allen) who refuse to admit a mistake and continue to support this insanity out of blind loyalty to the President.

In addition, I am baffled by Bush's out-of-control spending, record budget deficits, massive trade deficits, and burdening an already near-bankrupt Medi-Care system with an inefficient and costly new drug program. Why are we spending nearly $500 million for the two bridges to nowhere in Alaska that Senator Allen voted for three times?

Given that we have a Republican President and Congress I wonder whatever happened to the Contract with America’s promise for a balanced budget amendment. How many Republican Congressmen that were elected in 1994 are still running for re-election despite the Contract with America’s term limits pledge? Were we conned by Newt and the Republicans?

I don’t know about the rest of the conservatives who have been lied to and disowned by their own Republican Party, but as for me I plan on voting for the Democrats this time out. Specifically, I find James Webb in Virginia to be a very impressive candidate. For a change it is nice to be able to vote "For" a candidate instead of "Against" the worst of two evils.
virginiavalues writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 6:30 PM
To JOSH
Let me tell you something sir, you don't understand the first concept of freedom and dissent in democracy.

Your version of reality and patriotism is at bit faulty in the least if not entirely idiotic.

To insult Jim Webb, and his son who is in Iraq as we speak is disgraceful and as unpatriotic as you claim everyone else to be that doesn't support your tunneled version of the world.

I want to know if you think the intelligence officers in the CIA, and the military are in the same pack of "sell outs" that you so describe in your short commentary above you sir are the sell-out.

You have been sold out and blinded by your own ignorance.

Pay no attention to the intelligence information of our own government, or the intelligence of the military that fight as we speak.

Pay no attention to the military commanders on the ground, or the handful of retired military officers and generals that have spoken out against this obvious failed leadership and failed policies.

I once proclaimed to be part of a party that believed in honesty and moral authority. I left after I slowly began to realize that not only do any parties in America display this but at the very least the American Republican Party we see today is not that of Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Ike Eisenhower, or even Ronald Reagan.

I am serving my country in unform today, I have been in OIF and OEF. I can tell you without a doubt that our nation's military will no longer stand for lies.

We took an oath to defend the constitution of this country, and beyond all party lines true patriots of this country intend to keep this vow regardless of the price, penalty, or burden.

The American people will come out and vote against this policy of lies, and vote for the only alternative possible.

Even if that is the spineless Democratic Party you speak of.

I know where I stand, with the American people and Constitution of the United States.

You can call me traitor, you can call me sell-out, but you have sold out your own integrity and logic for lies.

In the end you will realize, that I am the patriot and you the traitor.

Long live democracy!
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