Saturday, November 07, 2009
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Pelosi: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail
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Posted by:
Meredith Jessup at
11:17 AM
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A letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) sheds some light on the consequences outlined in Pelosi's new health care proposal for those who choose NOT to comply with its new individual mandate--including up to a $250,000 fine and 5 years in jail:
Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below (courtesy Ways & Means Ranking Member Dave Camp, R-MI):
“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]
“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]
Criminal penalties
Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:
• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]
Rep. Camp reports that according to the CBO, the "lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker's bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.
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FYI: Losing one's job does not make them a deadbeat...going to the ER for me is a last resort, as I cannot any longer afford health care coverage. This entire pay system is a joke and very expensive, leaving many without early diagnosis.
The hospital are guilty, doctors, insureres, and illegals (right, illegals). This system is FOR PROFIT, not quality care! The Government is inept at every level. The cost of this new health care plan....endless. No one is talking about the additional cost of oversight, zeroing in on non-payer's, and illegals, who already, by the way get free care, unlike the taxpaying, law abiding citizens.
Me- Gee, so what are you saying here? That it's bad that it's a for-profit system? It strikes me that you would benefit from a single payer, Universal Health care system that treats your cold for $100.00 instad of you waiting to go to the emergency room for $1000.00, but you are horrified that an "illegal" might get it... |
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This is the perfect way for them to push a single payer government system. It will not take them long to let us all know that collecting fines and tracking down those without insurance is just too costly. The only way that they can make sure all are insured is by taxing all of us and using that tax to pay for single payer system. Anyone who things otherwise is foolish.
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careful with that axe: They know they are never going to collect from most of these deadbeats, they are just trying to discourage them from showing up at the emergency room every time they have a cold.
FYI: Losing one's job does not make them a deadbeat...going to the ER for me is a last resort, as I cannot any longer afford health care coverage. This entire pay system is a joke and very expensive, leaving many without early diagnosis.
The hospital are guilty, doctors, insureres, and illegals (right, illegals). This system is FOR PROFIT, not quality care! The Government is inept at every level. The cost of this new health care plan....endless. No one is talking about the additional cost of oversight, zeroing in on non-payer's, and illegals, who already, by the way get free care, unlike the taxpaying, law abiding citizens. |
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"The hospitals charge the uninsured ridiculous amounts because A) insurance companies don't pay actual costs, and B) the hospitals can price-gouge everyone who doesn't have insurance.
Collapsing at work and having to pay $900 *at an outpatient clinic* to be told I had a really nasty stomach flu and not an aortic aneurism, perforated ulcer, or inflamed gallbladder falls under B. Kindly tell me where the flying f*ck this gives you any sort of permission to call me or any other low-income worker a "deadbeat?"
By the way, running to the doctor/hospital for a cold is a phenomenon that appeared with the advent of your oh-so-holy "insurance."
Me- Silverdrake, I think you are one of those "Clingers" Obama was speaking of... I'm not defending the insurance industry. I think they are about as close to evil as you can get. But I also think the hospitals are trying to socially engineer in their own way. When you MANDATE treatment regardless of ability to pay at emergency rooms, that's practically inviting people to flood emergency rooms.
The thing is, the rules of a "free market" don't apply to health care. More the rules of "highway robbery". If you're sick or injured, you pay RIGHT NOW, and whatever they demand...
Now, if we had a single payer system that required people to pay what it actually COST to provide the service, and not what they thought they could get away with, you wouldn't have these problems. Which is why the other countries that have universal coverage are only spending half of what we do, and they live longer, are healthier and have a lower infant mortality rate. |
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Axe
Your really do not get it do you? Threatening to throw you in jail or fine you if you do not buy health care sounds far more like what you would expect from a communist government. Don't kid yourself about them making examples of some.
Me- Oh, I'm sure they will... but it'll usually be a person who is ASKING to be made an example of.
Like Tommy Chong. Got thrown in jail for selling bongs, just like every head shop operator in the last 40 years they don't bother with. But he's Tommy Effing Chong, a guy who has spent the last 40 years making dope 'funny'.
If you're the kind of a-hole who thinks paying a $25,000 fine rather than doing the responsible thing and buying a $5000 health insurance policy is a good way to thumb "the man" in the eye, maybe you deserve to go to jail.
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........with stupidity like this.
"They threaten to throw you in jail for copying DVDs.... how often does that actually happen? Unless it's someone pirating DVD's by the thousands, not really."
Oh yeah...let's all hang our hats on this scenario.
And to think, I thought any debate (if you can call any conversation with Ax debate) wouldn't be any fun.
Hey Ax! Got a copy of Pineapple Express?
I'll bet it's the Lawerence of Arabia of your collection.
LOL! You know....Lawerence of Arabia.....he runs the Shell station down the street.....
LOL |
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It took this long to finally stick the final nail in the coffin of this once great country. God have mercy on our souls.Please forgive all our greed, and our rebellion.Please do not turn from us right yet. Allow us turn back toward you.NO I am not LDS.I am a Born Again AMerican who has been taught all my life(and I am over 45)that this country is the best place on earth.I am so greatfal that my grandparents and my father who died serving this country are no longer here to see wwhat has taken place in the last year.I can not beleive that we are getting bills slammed down are throat and they are not even being read.Someone please tell me the reason for this Satrday night vote on healthcare from a COngress that PROMISED TRANSPARECY.Oh yeah,the ones who need to be transparent are us the citezens.Why are we going to race through a bill without reading it and then it does not even take effect until 2013?Can you explain this?It is the end of the country.explain the reason we are doing things that OTHER coutries are telling us NOT to do because they have tried and it does not work. In the world of recovery, when you try things that have been done before expecting different results it is called INSANITY!YES I SAID INSANITY!The POTUS and CONGRESS AND ALL THOSE THAT work in the capitol or DC law makers are INSANE.why is it that we only allow 8 years for the presidet of the US and those in congress (both house and senate) can serve FOREVER? WHy? PERHAPS it is time that we changed the laws and allow only 8 year terms. and then they must retire. I mean this one man has tried every year since 1955 to install this. PEOPLE WAKE UP.put your money where your mouth is than please STEP ASIDE and let the AMERICANS take charge again. I am AN AMERICAN! ARE YOU? |
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Anyone without insurance is a "deadbeat?"
F.U.A.T.H.Y.R.I.O.
The hospitals charge the uninsured ridiculous amounts because A) insurance companies don't pay actual costs, and B) the hospitals can price-gouge everyone who doesn't have insurance.
Collapsing at work and having to pay $900 *at an outpatient clinic* to be told I had a really nasty stomach flu and not an aortic aneurism, perforated ulcer, or inflamed gallbladder falls under B. Kindly tell me where the flying f*ck this gives you any sort of permission to call me or any other low-income worker a "deadbeat?"
By the way, running to the doctor/hospital for a cold is a phenomenon that appeared with the advent of your oh-so-holy "insurance." |
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Your really do not get it do you? Threatening to throw you in jail or fine you if you do not buy health care sounds far more like what you would expect from a communist government. Don't kid yourself about them making examples of some.
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Actually, you are right that medical billing is a huge game of smoke and mirrors.
Let me tell you my story. In 2007, I had an elective operation through my insurance company. Rest assured, I got a bill, and it was for $32,000. Well, after they got through with the insurance company, the Insurance company knocked everything down to about 16K, or which I paid about $2000 out of pocket...
Well, the insurance company stopped covering this kind of surgery immediately after that. (And the two employees at this company that had it were mysteriously the first ones let go when budget cuts came, even though we had seniority on everyone else... hmmmmmm) But another gal in the office wanted to have the same surgery, but to pay for it out of pocket.
Guess what they offered to do it to her for? Yup, you guessed it, $17,000. Same Doctor (I gave her a referral), same procedure, same hospital.
Now, to your point, yes, the hospitals probably DO charge the uninsured ridiculous numbers to discourage them from showing up without freakin' insurance. They know they are never going to collect from most of these deadbeats, they are just trying to discourage them from showing up at the emergency room every time they have a cold. |
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christine
Isn't it great that the government threatens you with jail if you do not buy health insurance. Does that sound like a free country? I do not think so.
Me- They threaten to throw you in jail for copying DVDs.... how often does that actually happen? Unless it's someone pirating DVD's by the thousands, not really.
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goosestepping, nonsapient, ideology-blinded, soundbite-parroting, scat-flinging monkey-bot statist totalitarians and other moronic idiots/ignorant persons who think that your "insurance premiums subsidize the uninsured," let me tell you a little story:
Some years back, I had to undergo re-constructive surgery after a dog attack. The hospital lost my insurance info (I had some, then) and sent the bill to me as a "private guarantor." The total was $5387. I called them and told them I had insurance, and gave them the info. They said NOT to send that bill to my insurance company; they'd send me another bill for that, as insurance was billed at a different rate.
The bill as issued for the insurance company totaled $1350.
Every single line item, as billed to a "private guarantor" (uninsured person), was anywhere from TWO TO TWENTY TIMES THE PRICE billed to the insurance company!
Your premiums subsidize the uninsured? Like hell, they do! The insurance companies cut sweetheart deals -- or engage in blackmail schemes -- with the care providers for a price that often doesn't cover the actual cost of the care provided. Then the providers turn around and price-gouge the living hell out of the uninsured to make up all their lost income. And if the uninsured can't pay the over-inflated bill, the providers turn it over to collection agencies who take the price-gouging victims to court and sue.
So kindly stop parroting "My insurance premiums subsidize the uninsuuuuuuured!" because the uninsured subsidize your freaking below-cost insurance premiums! |
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There are problems with health care. Some people get great access. Some people get lousy access. Some people get overcharged. Some people are broke. Etc, etc. Everybody knows this.
I understand the temptation to turn it over to the government. A wise, benign entity in charge could allocate fairly. Resources could be shared. Surely there's enough for everyone.
The problem is, we're describing a totalitarian state. Governments aren't wise or benign. They're stupid and bureaucratic, and they allocate resources for the politically favored. Look at the swine flu vaccine. With government running the show, the delivery was 10% of promised, and it goes first and foremost to places like the terrorists at Gitmo.
It's sick and weird that the people who, under other circumstances urge us not to trust the government, are today demanding we let the government take control over our most personal and intimate decisions. The government that controls access to health care decides whether you live or die. Have we gone mad?
I'll take my chances with the free market, with all its warts and imperfections. |
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issues from the muzzle of a gun.
And now Pelosi, et al. are going to put a gun to my head and rape thousands of dollars out of my limited income to stuff the already-over-bloated coffers of multi-billion-dollar mega-corporations in yet-another massive, fraudulent pile of suppurating bovine flop program of corporate welfare.
Bailout: Corporate Welfare. It did absolutely NOTHING to help the people trapped in exotic loans or suddenly un-/under-employed who were, did, and still are losing their homes.
Stimulus: Corporate Welfare. Except for the part where they robbed the lawful owners and gave the stocks to unions as payoff for campaign and voting support.
Cap-and-Trade: Corporate Welfare. With Pelosi and other crooks sinking millions into "green" companies that stand to make billions while people freeze to death in their dark homes.
Health Care "Reform": Corporate Welfare. Robbery at gunpoint of every individual (except the privileged few of Congress and SEIU, and millions of illegal aliens... Oh, let's call them what they are: foreign invaders!) whether or not said individual wants it, needs it, or CAN EVEN F*CKING AFFORD IT! -- for the benefit of bloated corporations from whom Pelosi and the other crooks have probably also bought massive amounts of stock.
Welcome to slavery. PCieg Heil! |
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Upon the US house passing the monstrous healthcare bill, Obama and the Democrats claim "This is a day we will make History", yes, a very sad day. This country is one more step closer to Socialism. These elitist Democrats don't care about the people in America they care about themselves and the control they will have it this bill is signed into law. What gives them the right to force someone to purchase health insurance under penalty of prison, HOW IS THIS CONSTITUTIONAL? The only hope now is to get some of the Senators to vote against the healthcare bill. Unfortunately, I do not see that happening, in fact I think Harry Reid would use the so-called nuclear option where they would only need 51 votes. Just remember, Obama and the Democrats said they had to pass the 787 billion dollar stimulus plan to save the economy. Upon passage they claimed unemployment would not go above 8%. It passed and unemployment is now 10.2% and rising, with the real unemployment at 17.5% or higher. |
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I thought for sure one a TH troll would catch THIS,
I wrote, "Next step: civil disobedience. I think I'll dig up my copy of Ralph Waldo Emerson."
Thoreau wrote "Civil Disobdience", not Emerson.
http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil.html
I'm going to love seeing the first half-black president turn the fire hoses on old, white people who march on the Capitol.
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Isn't it great that the government threatens you with jail if you do not buy health insurance. Does that sound like a free country? I do not think so. |
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Careful with that axe, Eugene writes:
I too am in the unenviable position of underemployed. With that comes the inability to afford health insurance. But I guess the Dem's got that covered with fines and mandates, whereby, I will be jailed (as a breadwinner, no support for my family and pets, no tax revenue for State and Feds, probable foreclosure and or bankruptcy), Lose-lose.
At least I will get some health care in jail. This is a very serious situation, where 7-10 million jobs have been lost and counting, added to the 46 million that were uninsured, plus "illegals" that need to be paid for by the taxpayer's.
KEEP up the good work PELOSI! |
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"Look what LBJ's Great Society has done. Turned huge portions of the society into crime-ridden poverty zones where people refuse to take responsibility. The War on Poverty has created even more irresponsible poor."
Me- Uh, no, what's created more poor is that big corporations have been systematically driving down wages and moving good paying jobs overseas.
Let's look at the REAL history here, okay. In the 1920's, you had what we had not long ago, a lot of fake wealth created by a booming stock market. Then a crash. Government created a lot of programs to make up where capitalism failed.
Then WWII came along, and we came out on top. Most of the workforce was unionized, people made good wages, the rich paid their fair share in taxes and we even started to address some of the racial inequity in this country.
Then the Republicans came along, and decided the rich were paying too much in taxes, it was too hard to move your job to some third world craphole where they pay slave wages, and you were actually being treated with human diginity because you belonged to a union. Well, enough of that sort of stuff...
And now here we are...
"Medicaid covers people who are poor. There are no poor who do not have medical insurance! Duh!"
Actually, there are a lot of poor who don't have health insurance because Medicaid ONLY kicks in when certain criteria are met. For instance, if I were laid off, I couldn't get Medicaid. I've made too much money this year. If I found myself unemployed, I'd be in serious trouble.
Yet here's the point. I've been working this wonderful "Temp to Hire" position for the last 16 months. Was only supposed to be 90 days, but always trust a Capitalist to take advantage of a bad situation. Well, they finally offered me a permanent position, which doesn't really pay any better than the temp position. (I'll still take it, because the insurance is better.)
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"Yes, I am LDS and the...stupidest thing I do is engaging YOU!"
Me- NO, actually the dumbest thing you do is continue to believe in a fake bible written by a petty con artist who wainted to boink 14 year old girls...
"Millions of tax payer $$ went into the attempt to protect New Orleans. Millions of taxpayer $$ were squandered in New Orleans corruption. You can blame GBW for acts of God, people who build cities in flood plains and Democrat cities that are full of corruption and stupidity. However, when you do you show you're own stupidity."
Me- I think I did credit all those other factors as well...Except God. he doesn't exist, so don't go blaming that poor guy. (Then again, why would you worship someone who causes floods that kill children?) But, yeah, Bush deserves his share of the blame, too. He should have ordered an evacuation, mobilized the Guard, etc. Oh, yeah, and not put a Horse Show guy in charge of FEMA. Heckuva Job there.
"As for LDS, let the record show"
That you are all a bunch of nitwits who believe in a fake religion. Uh, yeah, we know that. Weren't you paying attention when the other sky-pixie worshippers slapped down Mitt like a red-headed stepchild?
"You complain about GWB, but the last time I looked he was a GOVERNMENT employee at the time. The Katrina failure was a GOVERNMENT failure--and primarly a Democrat one. It was the local authorities' responsibility to plan ahead for the inevitable flood and have systems in place--including working with the feds ahead of time."
Me- Actually, George W. Bush was the guy who created Homeland Security and consolidated all the agencies that were supposed to deal with a problem like this under one house, supposedly to act better in such an emergency... and failed miserably.
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"What is the Constitutional
justification for FORCING someone to purchase a product?
What is the Constitutional justification for IMPRISONING a citizen for not purchasing a product?"
Me- Actually, states can already fine you for not wearing your seatbelt, not having auto insurance, etc. 70 years of Supreme Court Precedents back this up...
"LJ, Eugene's Axe, you want healthcare reform? Fine. Let's see YOU be the first to open your wallets to buy insurance for a family who doesn't have it. Let's see you do it WITHOUT being forced to by some Government flunkie. Let's see how generous you are with your OWN money before you decide you have a right to what I have earned. What do ya say, sports?"
Me- I say we are ALREADY doing it. That's my point. When Joe Dipstick shows up at the emergency room and runs up a bill he has no intention of paying, those of us who do have insurance pay higher premiums and those of us who pay taxes pay higher taxes.
"Just so ya know Jesus NEVER forced anyone to give who didn't want to-the rich young man was allowed the dignity of his own choice not to sell off all he had and give to the poor. Nor did He make a single move to force others to provide for the poor widow who gave everything she had. In fact, He NEVER removes anyone's responsibility for managing his own life resources, but wants us to give freely, WITHOUT coercion. That's why it's called 'charity', not 'theft'."
Me- Jesus also said to render unto Caesars what what Ceasars when people whined about paying their taxes...
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"Wait a minute! Earlier today on another thread you mentioned, and could not back up, a figure of 44,000 people dying because of no health care.
If we just leave them to die as you say, why the extra taxes and premiums?
Huh?Now which one is it?
Someone else is paying for it or they are all dying in the streets.
Which one?"
Me- Actually, it's BOTH. Too bad you are too retarded to comprehend it.
46 Million Americans have no insurance. Some because they are too poor, some because they are too irresponsible to provide for themselves.
A lot of the poor ones DIE because they ignore that sore throat or that lump or whatever, because they don't have the money to see a doctor.
Then you have MOST of the others who don't get insurance, get sick or hurt, show up at the emergency room, and their expenses are spread around to the rest of us.
ooooookay, Corky, do you comprehend now? I mean, I can talk to you like you are a retarded six year old, but that would be a waste of my valuable time.
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We should go to each and every office of these traitors to the American people, traitors to the Constitution, traitors to the Declaration of Independence, and immediately arrest them, put handcuffs on them, put them in orange jump suits, and frog-march them straight to prison for breaking their oath, spitting on the Constitution and for their total corruption!!!
These Stalinist-Libs are evil and the scum of the earth. They are predictable moronic Stalinists and they are despicable!!! |
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I have insurance now but when everything gets so screwed up that I can't afford it then I just won't have it. And I won't paying any fines to anybody. This is nonsense! I suppose they'll build debtors prisons out of the abandoned hospital buildings. |
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if the dems get their way on this they are heading for the next industry takeover. Maybe they'll finish with the entire insurance industry first - then we can all cancel our home, auto and life insurance so when the house burns down, the car gets stolen and the spouse dies, we all get to have the same little boxes to live in, the same buses to ride and every life policy will be deleted. Won't it be so much easier when all we have to do is go to our government appointed jobs at the government appointed time on the government controlled buses. No more tough decisions to make, just leave work and on Monday stand in the bread line, Wednesday stand in the powdered milk line and Friday stand in the cheese line. For anything else, you'll have to be connected to the elite, wealthy leaders.
This is not funny, it is what they want. |
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And his taxation-without-representation Parliament.
It is no longer even ponderable whether or not Obama, Pelosi, Reid, the other Democrats, liberals and leftists must be stopped.
IF such tyranny is passed by the Demockacrats, liberals and leftists, then all we have left is the Supreme Court, where inevitably legimate challenges will be made to the lawfulness and constitutionality of PelosiObamacare.
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L.J. You know you want to use the A word...Come out from inside your head...
So whats the story? Did they kick you off completely and now you are using a different email to come back? All your previous posts were erased. You cant erase whats stuck inside you though. |
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"Yes, 'Alive' you ARE forced to pay taxes. Auto Insurance. Ever try to get a mortgage WITHOUT buying Homeowner's Insurance???"
This is so ignorant, only a lib could make this statement. Honey, you obviously don't own a house. Homeowners insurance is required by THE BANK, not by the government, to protect their investment via your mortgage. Likewise, most states only require liability insurance on your car in case you hit someone else. The states don't require collision and comprehensive coverage, THE BANK does if you have an auto loan. C&C coverage is the most costly part of auto insurance.
These examples are NOT comparable to the House or Senate health bills either in intent or cost. How much sense does it make to tell people who don't have health insurance because they can't afford it that the government now requires them to purchase it to the tune of $15,000/yr for a family? Wasn't the rationale for overhauling the system that insurance was too expensive and people were going without care because of it? I don't know about any of you, but my family can't afford $15,000 a year so that Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama can feel good about themselves.
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...stupidest thing I do is engaging YOU!
Millions of tax payer $$ went into the attempt to protect New Orleans. Millions of taxpayer $$ were squandered in New Orleans corruption. You can blame GBW for acts of God, people who build cities in flood plains and Democrat cities that are full of corruption and stupidity. However, when you do you show you're own stupidity.
As for LDS, let the record show that millions of $$ and man hours go into helping people in need all over the world....and especially with Katrina.
Truck loads of ice, food, cleaning supplies and manpower were staged ahead of time and were immediately on the scene. LDS people went to NO from all over the country (my son-in-law traveled from Dallas) went to clean up the place.
In addition, LDS people in Texas (and probably other states) opened their homes and church building for refugees. Katrina refugees that were flown to Utah were met at the airport with hugs and freshly home-baked bread.
They were housed in neighorhoods were people cooked them hot meals and provided for their other needs.
You complain about GWB, but the last time I looked he was a GOVERNMENT employee at the time. The Katrina failure was a GOVERNMENT failure--and primarly a Democrat one. It was the local authorities' responsibility to plan ahead for the inevitable flood and have systems in place--including working with the feds ahead of time.
When people start depending on government instead of taking personal ADULT responsibility, they will find themselves sadly disappointed.
Look what LBJ's Great Society has done. Turned huge portions of the society into crime-ridden poverty zones where people refuse to take responsibility. The War on Poverty has created even more irresponsible poor.
Medicaid covers people who are poor. There are no poor who do not have medical insurance! Duh!
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Pelosi thinks it is okay to threaten people with jail for not getting government stand-in-line high cost low quality govt approved services - well if they would stop messing with this garbage bill and stop trying to control our lives, they might be able to get something done to bring jobs back - for instance - stop bail outs and buying private industries.
pelosi needs to be honest, this MANUFACTURED Crisis is a smokescreen for adding taxes, giving our money to Acorn and affiliates and to bail out the UNIONs in payback for the elections. The bill has more spending, more government agencies and new Community Organizations to monitor your lifestyle. This is a fraud.........like those pushing it in our faces. |
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People have given a thumbs up for schools and roads as most people use them. It's the lighthouse argument. Insurance is different. If u don't drive u don't have to pay for car insurance. Likewise u don't have to buy health insurance. Until now with the fascist libs in charge. The people don't want this but it doesn't matter to fascist like u who only care about the collective. And u still ignore the fact that govt ruins whatever they get hold of. Naturally u doochebags will only shrug when the doctor shortages and rationing start. |
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"Right now, everybody who shows up at an emergency room gets treated. Change that program and people will start taking some responsibility."
Me- No, actually, what will happen is that people will wonder why we let a poor child die needlessly....
Come on, think back to Katrina. Unless you were completely heartless or a die hard apologist for George W. Stupid, the site of dead bodies floating down Mississippi was intolerable.. Forget that they chose to live in a flood zone or that they were told a couple times a hurricane was coming and they should get the hell out of the way... Once they turned into a corpse, we were demanding why government didn't do ITS job. Blanco and Nagin (who were equally to blame) pointed at Bush and the s h i t stuck to him.
Once you say, "We are not going to let people die because of their bad judgment", then the argument inevitably becomes, how do we protect people best from themselves? Every OTHER industrialized nation found that answer. Single payer, universal coverage, no one makes an obscene profit.
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Regarding self responsibility;
Today in California, one can buy what would be considered catastrophic insurance to CYA. It would have a $3,000 deductible +/-, and run a single payer about no more than $1800 a year.
Since we don't have the single person price, we cannot compare, but if you were to x4 this price, you'd be at half the cost for a family. They can be 'responsible' for the first $3000.
Bottom line, there are cheaper way to be 'responsible'. This is more about CONTROL.
btw, did ya catch that Pelousy wants to repeal cost of living indexing on your tax bracket? Its in the Bill. That means if she wins, your income tax will find its way into the next bracket level after a couple of inflation adjustments to your pay.
No new taxes on the middle class? LIES! |
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This monster is soooo good for americans that our politburo refuses to include themselves. They voted Joe Wilsons amendment down in committee. So I asked my congresscritters aide, if he doesn't take it, why is is so good for me to have it? They run from that question like the moral cowards they are.
There will be a lot of Americans going to jail, because while many can't, I think a good number WON"T..let them try it..clog the courts..call them as witnesses, tie them up with legalities.
Demand jury trials.
I pray that Nazi, Obama's concubine will be wearing orange and iron bracelets in the NEAR future because of her treachery. |
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There is NObody dying in the gutter in this country from lack of health care. There is NObody dying from lack of food. There are NO children going to bed hungry. Everybody ever heard of WIC? Anybody ever hear of Medicaid?
There are children dying from gang warfare; there are poor people dying of obesity-related diseases; there are children dying from parental abuse. There are people dying from drug overdoses, there are people dying from alcohol-related auto accidents. There are people dying from tobacco-related health problems. There are people dying from AIDS they got from unprotected sex and dirty needles.
And there are small businesses dying everyday from high taxes, stupid regs, high fees and a bad economy that could by fixed by conservative, NOT liberal economic policies. |
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No they don't. That's the problem.
You can divide the world into two camps: straight-thinkers and goofy-thinkers. The Founders, influenced by the Age of Reason, were classical straight-thinkers. Their minds went from A to B to C--and able to see the eventual outcome.
The progressive statists are a bunch of romantic goofy-thinking baffoons. The best of them see a poor person and "think," Oh, government has to do something. I will get government to rob my fellow citizens to feed the the poor.
The worst of them (Geo. Soros/Al Gore types) are a bunch of ba$tards, using the soft hearts and soft brains of the goofs to plunder hard-working tax payers in order to line their own pockets and those of their cronies.
For this reason we were given a Constitution: to protect us from Plundering Pelosi, Ransacking Reid and Blood-thirsty Barry.
The Constitution was designed to protect us from dog-eat-dog, Darwinian government. But the goofy-thinkers have given their (and our) power over to one-party rule and checks and balances are a joke.
The only thing standing between us and a government gone wild is a bunch of tea party goers waving their signs at the FOX news camera.
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There has NEVER been a person who died in this country, legal or illegal, who has died of "no healthcare insurance"! Name one person who died where it states on their death certificate: "This person died due to...NO HEALTH INSURANCE!" Or prove to everyone here on TH where it states on their tombstone anywhere in this country, "Here lies John Doe. He died due to NO HEALTHCARE INSURANCE."
I'm waiting.... |
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violated her SWORN OATH and has violated the constitution and needs to not only be driven out of office but deposited in federal PRISON!!!! |
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"forced charity is unconstitutional tyranny."
It's also an oxymoron. Statist's brains are diseased. Can you imagine the conflict within brain of a statist? No wonder they're so angry all the time. Yikes!
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If a person doesn't have health insurance (like Rush Limbaugh doesn't), then they WON'T be treated @ tax payer expense.
THAT is accountability.
But forcing people to buy insurance is unconstitutional. Let natural consequences force personal responsibility.
Right now, everybody who shows up at an emergency room gets treated. Change that program and people will start taking some responsibility.
It's not government's job to figure all this out. Let citizens figure out their own problems. If there are a bunch of liberals who want to provide unfortunates with free goods and services and feel the government's the best agency to do it, check off a place on your tax return.
Say how much you want to contribute to help the poor and write a check. But forced charity is unconstitutional tyranny.
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"Do we really know who anyone is???"
Of course not.
But it's easy to know what you are.
That's a piece of cake! |
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We tried protesting, writing letters, emails, phone calls,....and still, for the first time in US history, we'll be penalized for simply being alive. If this isn't unConstitutional, nothing is.
Next step: civil disobedience. I think I'll dig up my copy of Ralph Waldo Emerson.
This is going to be exciting, como no?
And Ax? Responsibility is the price of Liberty. Govt destroys responsibility. The cost of being irresponsible (not buying insurance) should be born entirely by the irresponsible party. |
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Do we really know who anyone is??? (wink,wink) For all we know, none of these people exist -- they could all be monikers of TH employees who take several different names and help keep the arguments going.
Wouldn't surprise me. I'll never tell!!! ;--) |
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Some people equate buying a house and insurance - you don't have to buy a home so you don't have to buy insurance, the more equity you have the greater choice of coverage you have.
If you buy the minimum and your home with belongings are destroyed that is a result of your choice not mine.
You choose your auto coverage - you are required to have coverage because you can injure people or property with a large piece of machinery. If you choose the minimum coverage and wreck your car you lose, your choice not mine.
If you make personal choices about the care of your body and neglect it or opt for a big screen tv rather than insurance, your choice not mine. I set my priorities, you set yours, I should not have to be responsible for whether you take care of your body - your choice not mine. |
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I don't know --- anyone who writes the batsh1tt crazy way that you do should think twice about the "box of rocks" analogy.
But, still you haven't taken up the gauntlet. Start the revolution already! Oh -- that's right. You've given up and refuse to spend any more time defending your 'cause.' C'mon -- that's no way to act. if you do that, then you lose you know.
If you can't do more than do schoolyard name-calling then what good are you? Anyone can write on a blog and call people names, but can you argue in an articulate,cohesive way as to why you feel the way you do and why you're so enraged?? No -- you can't -- all you want to do is talk about taking up your guns and running through the streets.
You're so sure you're right, but you won't take the step forward. Go ahead -- run with your guns Ronna and see how far you get.
Maybe you'll surprise me.
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A parasite?? If you're pretending that you're a follower of Jesus -- forget it. You're just another potty-mouth "fake Christian" -- on one hand you get all worked up about "Jesus" and then talking out of the other side of your fat, ugly mouth, you're hurling filthy insults.
Now here's the news again -- read slowly so you'll understand: You. Pay. Taxes. Even. On. Services. You. Don't. Use. Get it???
Yes, "Alive" you ARE forced to pay taxes. Auto Insurance. Ever try to get a mortgage WITHOUT buying Homeowner's Insurance???
And stop with the "Jesus" quotes already. You act about as "Christian" as Osama bin Laden.
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To say that you are as dumb as a box of rocks and can do nothing but put down those of us who disagree with your brainwashed agenda of Obamao supporting ignorance would be a waste of time. You are a loser and an idiot, and someone not worth one minute of my time, so in under 20 seconds here, I will tell you that I shall never again waste any of it on you; and... you can go straight to hell where you and all your ilke will surely wind up one day. |
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Some people forget that it was Barney (I didn't know my partner was growing pot here) Frank and Chris Dodd (main scam artists) who pushed for more lending from their little side businesses Fannie and Freddie - they both publicly said Bush did not know what he was talking about when he expressed concern for the fiscal health of these Government entities. Frank loudly and crass as usual said Fannie and Freddie were sound. The dems crammed what they wanted into spending bills and went wild when they took the majority in 2006 - explains that sudden downturn right?
a
As for the public option in education, another example of congress interfering in private choice. what may have begun as well meaning move has turned out to be a costly failure.
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where the insurance will be free, as well as our food. they can come and arrest us now because we will NEVER get their gestapo forced health insurance. My husband and I will just close up our house and he wont' have to worry about making money to pay any bills. Trouble is, it will be the taxpayers who foot the bill to keep us, as well as all the others who will be there because they can't afford a government mandated health insurance bill that none of us want. Communism sound familiar to anyone with a brain?? Liberal trolls excluded of course! |
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justification for FORCING someone to purchase a product?
What is the Constitutional justification for IMPRISONING a citizen for not purchasing a product?
LJ, Eugene's Axe, you want healthcare reform? Fine. Let's see YOU be the first to open your wallets to buy insurance for a family who doesn't have it. Let's see you do it WITHOUT being forced to by some Government flunkie. Let's see how generous you are with your OWN money before you decide you have a right to what I have earned. What do ya say, sports?
Just so ya know Jesus NEVER forced anyone to give who didn't want to-the rich young man was allowed the dignity of his own choice not to sell off all he had and give to the poor. Nor did He make a single move to force others to provide for the poor widow who gave everything she had. In fact, He NEVER removes anyone's responsibility for managing his own life resources, but wants us to give freely, WITHOUT coercion. That's why it's called 'charity', not 'theft'.
Gawd you two are ignorant, teat-suckin' azzzhats. |
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Let me guess, and I'm going out on a limb here.....
The latest incarnation of spontaneous, jordan and many others??
Like i said, I going out on a limb.... |
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What a loser you must be!
How do you NOT know that you STILL pay public school taxes whether you have a kid at all, or have a kid in the school system? DUH -- You're calling ME a doofus? That's got to be the dumbest analogy I've ever heard!!!!
Unless you're one of those freeloading welfare cheats who doesn't pay taxes at all, which you most likely are. A little coward, afraid of the world.
You pathetic fools whine and snivel about the government but guess what? Bush removed much of the government oversight on the banking industry during his tenure. What happened in Spring of '08? The recession starts and banking failures galore because no one was watching.
So, yes, the government should intervene in Health Care and stop the insurance companies from collecting millions in premiums just so they can deny coverage to those who need it the most. If you don't want to pay for it then stick with the private companies but don't expect others to pick up the pieces when your coverage stops.
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The libs keep saying that no one will go broke under the so called 'taxpayer burden government control option' - they won't be honest and tell you that in addition to your annual premiums you will still have a max out of pocket cost of $5000 for an individual or $10,000 for a family. Generally these caps do not include the deductible, co-pays or drug charges only the cost sharing amount at whatever percentage "yet to be determined". Many employer plans have caps much lower than this already and individual plans have options for what limits you feel you need.
Just another smokescreen. |
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Go, go go!!!
Take your guns out and start that revolution!!! Don't just talk about it -- Do it. Go ahead -- I dare you.
See -- with people like you -- you are all talk, talk, talk but when it comes down to it you'd rather drink your beer, flop on your couch and belch insults to the TV then actually do anything.
Ronna, I'll bet you never even bothered to finish H.S. and have some miserable job that you hate where someone directs your every action. You haven't a clue as to what the difference is between Socialism, a social program or benefit, Communism and a Democracy. You don't even have a clue as to what they mean.
Like a child you just know they're "Bad Words" so you use them to get attention. And, like a child, or a moron, you get the terms all mixed up so you confuse wanting to help the less fortunate to have better life with some kind of evil.
You can try and educated yourself a little bit about what's really going on so you can craft a credible argument about what you object to and why you object to it instead of spewing.
OR, you can swill your cheap beer and go on a website like this and take out your anger on the keyboard and not worry or care if anything changes.
It's your choice.
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"Uh, buddy, I think it's called "responsibility". If you aren't buying insurance, and you get hurt, who do you think pays for that? The REST of us do in higher taxes and premiums"
Wait a minute! Earlier today on another thread you mentioned, and could not back up, a figure of 44,000 people dying because of no health care.
If we just leave them to die as you say, why the extra taxes and premiums?
Huh?
Now which one is it?
Someone else is paying for it or they are all dying in the streets.
Which one?
Thump!
Ohhhhh that's going to leave a mark! |
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bad examples, doofus. most of us cannot pay for our own roads now can we? And there are some people who do not use the public schools because they suck. So you're suggesting to let govt do for healthcare what they've done for education? better try again, dork. it wasn't like we tore down the old road system to build a new and crappier one. this is forcing everyone to hand over money that they don't need to hand over. you commie mofos will learn the hard way one day. |
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If this passes as it reads in Merideths blog I'm sure they will treat it no different than not paying taxes. I must have got to the troll with my drooling remark so he did what all liberals do and tried to use it for himself. |
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embocile ebmbacile embucile, etc. you are one as well as your black President who is only a buffoon because he is unfit and ineligible, Remember now - he is also half white...oh and just for the record, I hate that part too. And I suppose you support your hideously ugly, dream lover Pelosi, the bugged eyed daughter of Satan's policies as well. Oh, and honey, I promise you - I don't have any TOY guns! And one last thing; I WILL BE ON THE FRONT LINES OF THE REVOLUTION, AND I WILL BE LOOKING FOR ANSWERS! I WILL PUT MY GUN WHERE MY MOUTH IS! Is that plain enough for ya? |
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"EMBICILE" is right -- only an Uneducated IMBECILE (Correct spelling) like yourself would suggest a revolution.
But, hey you go right ahead. Get out your toy guns and start running in the streets -- I'll even tape it for YouTube.
Go ahead, Ronna -- put your money where your drooling mouth is and you start that revolution, girl. You start screaming out loud like you do on this blog about how the bad black man in the white house is ruining the country.
Scream it loud and clear. And then give it to Fox to recruit for the conservatives.
Stop blathering and put it to action!!! You go get 'im!!!! |
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Don't you dunderheads get it??? People don't bleed to death in the street in the U.S. like they do in 3rd world countries, so if you don't have the means to pay, someone else will.
Who do you drooling simpletons think pays for schools, roads, bridges, state parks, etc....????? Even people without kids pay for schools because educated people benefit everyone, just like healthcare for all benefits society.
No one with any credibility that is, is suggesting that the public schools be eliminated and that you pay for your kid's education and if you don't have the money, no education. OR, you can't drive or walk on the road (excluding toll roads) unless you pay.
If someone can explain how that is NOT socialism and tyranny, yet healthcare for all means everyone should become hysterical about turning into a communist then let's hear it. |
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or allowing prisoners to be released early due to overcrowding and lack of funds to keep them running already, how do the nefarious goons in Washington expect to be able to house the hundreds of thousands more Americans who don't have $15,000.00 to pay for a health insurance plan they don't want and can't pay for anyway because of the current economic crisis brought on by our greed-agenda-generation, dumb-a*s officials in the first place?
A lot of people today who have lost their jobs, had their houses foreclosed on, lost their car, etc., and aren't sure where their next meal is coming from sure as hell aren't going to be running right out and buying an insurance policy because Pelosi the RAT tells them to.
So, I want to be clear about what will happen to those of us who refuse for whatever reason to get that policy. Will the Pelosi Gestapo come knocking on our door and drag us off to a Commie prison camp? And who will pay for our stay there? The taxpayers who are already overburdened that's who.
Who will take care of the children of those who have young families? How will those who have been incarcerated look for work while they're locked up? What are these embiciles thinking anyway? Why are we allowing any of them to hold office while they screw us out of everything we have dreamed and worked for all our lives?
When are the American people going to wake up and drag them into the streets and take back this country?
Viva La REVOLUTION, AMERICANS.
WHATEVER TYPE OF REVOLUTION IT TAKES, PEACEFUL, OR VIOLENT - VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
AND SOONER RATHER THAN LATER! |
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This is where this whole nightmare is going. First they kneecap the banks, then the auto industry, now suprise, suprise, they are coming after all of us. Who didn't see this coming? And immediataly some drooling statist steps in and says sure, sure you should pay, its only being responsible to be a good servant to the collective. This is going to end badly. |
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With regard to the citizens putting up with it, they aren't. It is just that Pelosi, Reid, Obama et al could give a flying fig about what the citizens think or want. |
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pay up or else, suckers. mob-like behavior by our own government. Aholes like eugenix don't stop to think that plenty of folks don't need health insurance for long periods of time.
Now, about those "poor" people who, we all know this will happen, will not be able to pay up. Who will pay for them? How about illegals? This is a strong arm joke and the citizens are putting up with it. |
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Uh, buddy, I think it's called "responsibility". If you aren't buying insurance, and you get hurt, who do you think pays for that? The REST of us do in higher taxes and premiums...
Now, once again, you guys are the ones INSISTING that the private sector can do a better job than the government. Well, prove it. |
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and the establishment of a tyrannical government resulting in the loss of your freedom and liberty. |
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Passing a healthcare bill has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with creating new mandatory payments to the government under penalty of law. Guess the income tax isn't enough for them, they want to force you to buy insurance even if it kills you. |
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