Thursday, May 17, 2007
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Re McCain - This is the End
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Posted by:
Dean Barnett at
5:27 PM
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If I may be so bold, I’d like to embellish on Hugh’s point on why this immigration bill is dreadful news for the McCain candidacy. McCain has been a stalwart on Iraq; he’s also been appropriately hawkish on the wider war, although I’ve yet to see any indications that he actually understands it. Although his position on coercive interrogation techniques is outside the party’s mainstream, even McCain’s critics sense that he’ll fight the war aggressively. This is all good, and his greatest asset as he seeks the Republican nomination.
But in order to get that nomination, the party faithful will have to overlook the many thumbs in the eye Senator McCain has delivered to conservatives over the past six years. For those of us with long memories, he doesn’t really have a chance. But a lot of people are more forgiving types, so maybe he can be so strong on the war that Republican voters will essentially forget McCain/Feingold, McCain/Kennedy, the Abu Ghraib grandstanding, the Gang of 14, voting against the Bush tax cuts...You get the idea.
Today’s events put the non-viability of the McCain candidacy into stark relief. McCain has committed so many offenses to conservatives over the past six years that he can’t realistically hope to emerge from their shadow.
Republicans are hopping mad over the immigration deal that’s been struck. Even as a relatively passive observer of the entire debate, I find this creature to be an abomination. The Counter Terrorism blog refers to it as a national security disaster. I would add that it’s also a moral disaster. And John McCain, more than any other single senator, is responsible for it.
Compliments? Complaints? Contact me at Soxblog@aol.com.
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I hope a massive dip in McCain's polling becomes quickly evident because it will be a stark illustration that this bill has electoral consequences. And in that case, this may push some House members on the fence into the "no" camp.
But there is a strong and worrisome possibility that the other major candidates will be drinking the Rove "jobs americans won't do / opposing illegal immigration vociferously costs us votes" kool-aid and won't speak out appropriately. Giuliani and Romney could easily screw up this golden opportunity.
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"And John McCain, more than any other single senator, is responsible for it."
Come on, he is up there, but Kennedy is more responsible - if only slightly. And it is not gramatically correct to start a sentence with a conjunction.
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Am I the only one who thinks Teddy Boy hates America so much because of the deaths of his two brothers that he is out to destroy this nation? How else do you explain the Immigration Bill of 1965 (which has done exactly what he said it wouldn't do) and this new disaster which will change forever this nation for the worse. God help my children and grandchildren. |
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Thank you Mr. Barnett, for writing the truth about this card carrying republican that has never appealed to true conservatives, and has never been loyal to the party that gave him his card! He is a true war hero that should have had enough sense to exit before the ego overwhelmed the brain. His ACTIONS as a false conservative has done far more damage than any STATEMENT that Ron Paul could make on stage. And the citizens deserve to know the truth about his real voting record! |
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Come on, Dean. Conservatives with "long memories" shouldn't be excited about your guy Romney, either. |
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I am a McCain supporter, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt.
However:
1. On amnesty -- this is a realistic approach. There are 12 million illegals here now, we can ignore them, we can have pipe dreams about deporting them all, or we can come up with a realistic solution. I think that is what this provides, PROVIDED that real enforcement follows.
2. On "coercive interrogation" -- you are talking about torture. He has been tortured, he knows what it does and how it is bad for our troops.
3. On the wider war -- I think he knows what it means, and why it is important to fight it intelligently and with victory in mind. |
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Romney has the almost the identical position to Bush & McCain. Why the double standard? From this week's debate:
MR. WALLACE: Governor Romney, you have also called Senator McCain's immigration plan amnesty. Are you prepared to say that sharing the stage with him tonight? And how do you explain your statement to the Lowell Sun last year in which you said, quote, "Those that are here paying taxes and not taking government benefits should begin a process toward application for citizenship as they would from their home country." Why isn't that amnesty as well, sir?
MR. ROMNEY: Well, my view is this. People should have no advantage by having come here illegally.
MR. WALLACE: But you're not telling them to go home, sir.
MR. ROMNEY: I am going to tell them to go home, but they start by beginning the process of applying for citizenship. But I do not believe -- or applying for permanent residency. They're not going to be barred from doing that, but they do not get any advantage by having come here illegally. That's the key part of what I objected to in McCain-Kennedy.
McCain-Kennedy, what it did is said that people who are here illegally get a special pathway. They're not like all the other immigrants in the world that want to come to this great country; they get a special pathway. That's what's wrong about it. If you're here illegally, you should not have a special pathway to become a permanent resident.
My view, you have to secure the border, number one, have an employment verification system, number two, and number three, say to those that are there illegally, get in line with everybody else; you're not going to have a special doorway, any particular advantage, by having come here illegally, to become a permanent resident. |
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I disagree strongly that McCain and Republicans have made a mistake. Bush and McCain have succeeded in solving a problem that bedevils us, threatens our present security (we NEED to know WHO is here and need to encourage it) and our future security (Social security and whether a permanent Hispanic underclass will be burning OUR cars) |
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The Republican Party is dead. Long live the Constitutionalists. |
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This deal wouldn't have happened if the Republicans held firm. John McCain is the one who wheeled and dealed and made it happen. |
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I wouldn't vote for him if he was the Republican candidate. I might have to stay home because I couldn't vote for the Dumocrats who are communist/socialist/humanist/atheist/elitists who think that they, and they alone, have all the answers to the world's problems. |
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he never had a chance to win
now he wants to make sure no one can win
all hail Comrade Hillary! |
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Once again, McCain sells out the GOP's soul, not just his own, for the sake of a deal.
Remember when McCain-Feingold was getting started, he had a provision for paycheck protection, to even the playing field with unions. And what was the first thing he sacrificed to get a deal? Yep, the one thing Republicans wanted. Same with this - throw out the fence, keep the crap we don't want.
Thanks for nothing, McCain. Again. |
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The Non-viable Senator from Arizona leads in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Michigan. Over half the early states.
http://americanresearchgroup.com
Inside the margin of error nationwide, and closing according to four separate polls in May, while Giuliani goes to pieces like a $2 watch.
http://pollingreport.com/wh08rep.htm
Yeah, real non-viable. Kinda like all your other prediction, eh, Dean? |
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it shows the need for a true conservative candidate
also, better start campaigning in Spanish right now fellas, here comes the deluge |
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Hugh, you are the biggest poseur in the media.
You demonized Tom Tancredo for opposing illegal immigration, but now you are shedding crocodile tears over this new deal.
The fact is, there's not a dimes worth of difference between McCain, Romney, or Giuliani on this issue and you know it. |
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He does what he thinks is right, no 2 ways about it. Doesn't care about entrenched GOP interests but about America's future. |
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I have been willing to give John McCain a hearing.
NO MORE!
Out, out, out with McCain, and please Senator Thompson step forward.
And a great big salute to Mitt Romney. |
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A pox on both their houses. |
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I have to disagree that McCain is doomed because of this, Bush got by when conservatives knew his position on this matter.
To be frank any of the top tier would be an improvement on Bush's performance, whether one agrees with and support the President at this point. If people found Bush electable, McCain should be far more palatable. |
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In a November 2005 interview with the Globe, Romney described immigration proposals by McCain and others as "quite different" from amnesty, because they required illegal immigrants to register with the government, work for years, pay taxes, not take public benefits, and pay a fine before applying for citizenship.
So let me get this straight--Romney was for this deal before he was against this deal.
Where have I heard that before? |
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Of the War on Terror, that is! McCain is smoking if he thinks this proposed bill is good for him or for the country. What this bill demonstrates is that unless the GOP comes down on the side of America, we're doomed. A country that does not secure its borders is no longer a sovereign nation; what will we become then?
Perhaps we're going to split up, with Texas becoming part of Mexico, along with NM, AZ, and California too. Yuk, that's not what I'm in favor of.
Better the Dems take over because then we'd have a clear political enemy to oppose rather than the worms and snakes growing in the Republican closet. What's very true is that our GOP senators and representatives have lost touch with America and have spent way too much time inside the DC Beltway!
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Proposition 187 was never enforced; it was stopped by the courts. Republicans thereafter (not saying in reaction to same) fled the state more than Democrats did, and demographic trends, including an influx of naturalized Hispanics, naturally tilted the field in favor of Democrats.
Prop 187 did not make Hispanics less likely to support Republicans; they already were inclined to vote Democratic and did so regardless.
To clear up one myth occasionally spread that Hispanics supported 187, a solid majority of Hispanics did vote against it. However, it did not galvanize them to come out to the polls - Hispanic vote percentage was 9%, while Hispanics constituted 15% of the eligible voters. |
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because although I am not a McCain supportor, he shows some character and does not just take the positions that he thinks will get him elected. And I think he is the most solid on life issues and the war on terror of all the major republican candidtates. I am truely sick of pandering policticians, Hillary above all. |
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What does Senator McCain mean when says that this comprehensive immigration reform bill needs to be rushed to a vote before it gets caught up in "extra-curricular activity"? Before it has a chance to read by Senators voting on it? Before it has a chance to be debated? Before its details become known to the voting public?
If so, then he knows that it will be unacceptable to the voters. If he is nonetheless proud of his leadership in creating the bill, then he believes that he knows better than his constituents. Does he really expect that his constituents will think highly of him for this arrogant attitude? |
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This deal is being reported in the MSM that it will be facing a pitched battle on the Senate floor next week. If we can bloody those who vote for this bill, even if it passes it is hard to see how a congress who faces re-election in 2008 will pass it. On the other hand, that Pelose proposal yesterday could turn the process into a secret vote. We are witnessing just how corrupting special interest money can be and how morally bankrupt our elected leaders truly are. I give alot of credit to Romney for being the first to step up and denounce this bill. |
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What a picture, the former Democrat Arlen, the degenerate Kennedy, and a self-styled deal-maker John McCain.
One hell of a picture, isn't it?
I can't imagine McCain's campaign for the nomination having much life after this.
Even if substantively it was worth the while, {which it isn't}, POLITICALLY, it would still be brain dead.
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"I don't believe in rounding up 11 million people and forcing them at gunpoint from our country," Romney said. "With these 11 million people, let's have them registered, know who they are. Those who've been arrested or convicted of crimes shouldn't be here; those that are here paying taxes and not taking government benefits should begin a process towards application for citizenship, as they would from their home country."
Rudy? John McCain? Nope. Mitt Romney!
Actually I agree with Mitt on this. At least I used to agree with Mitt before he changed on this position.
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Teddy R. was busting up corrupt special interest trusts, those famous "robber barons" who were bankrupting the economy, McCain is doing their bidding. You are confusing McCain's arrogance and corruption with Teddy R's moral committment to fight corruption. We need more Teddy Rs and fewer McCains. They are polar opposites. |
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Joe writes,
In a November 2005 interview with the Globe, Romney described immigration proposals by McCain and others as "quite different" from amnesty, because they required illegal immigrants to register with the government, work for years, pay taxes, not take public benefits, and pay a fine before applying for citizenship.
So let me get this straight--Romney was for this deal before he was against this deal.
Where have I heard that before?
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Problem is is that what Romney addresses here and what has come about in this recent compromise aren't the same thing. The differences may not be stark, but they are not the same thing. I am not, however, surprised to see you jump at ANY opportunity to view it as a change in position.
Just a little while ago, Joe was sounding all reasonable about changing position is not flip flopping even though he doubted Romney's motives for changing positions. Notice how when there is legitimate grounds to question McCain, he can't pull out the Romney accusations quickly enough! |
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I do not believe Mitt honestly believes we should send 11 million illegals out of the country to get on line for citizenship. Mitt is saying that now to pander to folks who are passionate about this issue in the hopes they will support him for President. |
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"Problem is is that what Romney addresses here and what has come about in this recent compromise aren't the same thing. The differences may not be stark, but they are not the same thing."
Do you suggest the current deal is more watered down that the earlier one? |
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honestly believe that he does.
Of course, everyone knows that doing enforcement first isn't the same as instantly deporting 11 million folks. That's a canard that pro-illegal immigration people like you like to cite. |
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He is saying he would tell them to go home and is, at the same time, recognizing and explaining that that doesn't matter. It won't happen. Saying we should tell them to go home and get in line is not the same as saying he would send them out of the country. There is asking someone to do the right thing and recognizing the reality of the situation. The problem with the current compromise is that it allows a much faster track to citizenship rather than having those already here illegally get in line and wait their turn. |
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You said: "Problem is is that what Romney addresses here and what has come about in this recent compromise aren't the same thing. The differences may not be stark, but they are not the same thing."
Is the first deal more favorable to border security than the current deal? If so, how? And If not, how does that explain Romney's change from the first deal to the second (other than pandering)?
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If it's Monday I voted for war.
If it's Tuesday I voted against funding it.
If it's Wednesday I am for the war.
If it's Thursday I think we should bring our troops home.
If it's Friday--Oh never mind--I'm both. |
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Is what a flip flopper is.
People who evolve their positions, aren't. |
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The first deal provided for more fencing, which Romney supported. In an interview with O'Reilly he even suggested naming it the Bill O'Reilly ....... Lame, but it illustrates the point. Furthermore, the current bill gives a much faster path to citizenship than was previously provided for.
To the main point of this post. I don't think this kills McCain anymore than McCain-Feingold kills McCain. What kills him is when he takes shots, even "effective" ones at his opponents rather than standing up for the legislation. McCain is always at his best when he stands up for what he has done even if it is unpopular. He has been faultering in this for a while now. He won't stick up for what he has done, but he won't have a change in position and explain why his position has changed. That too is pandering. It is just a different way of going about it. |
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Are both toast for their position on this issue. McCain headquarters sends me emails regularly; I just sent one back to them demanding that they take me off their mailer list; telling them that John McCain is another in a long line of Nationalists that will sell the American people down the river in a heartbeat for the right price.
Bill O'reilly says we have no other choice. Bull crap, we can get mad and we can get loud and we can fight for our country & for our freedoms; we can fight for the laws that already exist; we can fight for the constitutional rights given to us.
The time for action is NOW..... |
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FROM DA KING
Sen. Isakson and Sen. Chambliss stand with Kennedy for largest amnesty in history
DEAR GEORGIANS,
Your two Senators stood at the press conference this afternoon and lent their support to the worst immigration bill in history — and there have been some disastrous ones.
After months of promising the voters of Georgia that they would never participate in full legalization of the 12-20 million illegal aliens, these two Senators are embracing a bill that will allow more than 98% of them to remain in your communities and job markets forever.
And your Senators didn’t even get the trigger they talked so much about. Rosemary Jenks is reading the bill and says that there are loopholes that allow the full amnesty whether or not any additional enforcement measures are ever implemented. In fact, the enforcement sections are as riddled with loopholes as the 1986 amnesty, Rosemary says.
Sen. Isakson and Sen. Chambliss have been played as fools by Pres. Bush and Sen. Kennedy.
Their embarrassment would be greatly reduced if you can persuade them to vote NO next Monday.
The state of Georgia and the good citizens of Georgia are being used as the primary props to try to convince the nation that this bill will end illegal immigration and do what is best for the American people.
It is in your hands whether Sen. Chambliss and Sen. Isakson will be allowed to continue to represent you in this way.
Chambliss, Saxby GA (R) 912-232-3657 2 East Bryan Street Savannah, GA 31401
202-224-3521 SR - 416 Washington, DC 20515
770-763-9090 100 Galleria Parkway Atlanta, GA 30339
229-985-2112 419-A South Main Street Moultrie, GA 31776
706-738-0302 1058 Claussen Road Augusta, GA 30907
478-741-1417 300 Mulberry Street Macon, GA 31201
Isakson, Johnny GA (R) 770-661-0999 One Overton Park Atlanta, 30339
202-224-3643 U.S. Senate Washington, DC 20510
Phone, fax and visit these offices. These Senators are prepared to sell out Georgia next week.
READ MORE
http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/we-got-sold-out
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This has absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia and everything to do with THE RULE OF LAW.
These illegals have snubbed their noses at the laws of a supposedly sovereign country and now they're going to be rewarded for it.
I am all for legal immigration but bill is absolutely disgusting. Not only are illegals rewarded, but our borders will remain as porous as ever. Wait and see.
Sadly, many Americans have already blown off the fact that three of the Fort Dix Six were ILLEGAL aliens. |
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These next 2 years are vital to the future of this country. For 2007 we must make certain that McCain/Kennedy or whatever it's called this year does not pass the House. It will pass the Senate. The President will sign it, followed by the Totalization Treaty with Mexico, which qualifies former illegals with just 6 qtrs(18 mo) even if worked illegally, the benefits that we had to work 40 qtrs(10 yrs) to qualify for.
In 2008 we must make the candidates address border security and immigration enforcement.
20-30 million citizens of other countries are in our country illegally, 55% from Mexico, most of the rest from other Central and South American countries. Let's not ignore the leftward voting trends of these countries. It is notable that they picked May Day, an old communist day of celebration for their marches.
Most polls show at least half of the American citizens of Hispanic descent want the borders and laws enforced. Republicans will not win by alienating their current voters to get 40% of a new small block that will grow very large, very fast if amnesty is granted. That will grow the Democrats vote larger and faster as the influx increases exponentially as the result of another amnesty. It will spell the end of the Republican Party. The people who used to vote Republican will stop voting or form a new party. Conservatives will lose political influence and we will slide inexorably towards socialism (it has already started).
Most of what you hear about this issue is political propaganda that tries to convince you to give up your country without a fight, including on Fox News. The big money players are all on board the cheap labor express, they care not that American citizens do not want another amnesty. We know the last one resulted in 10 times the number of illegal aliens and a general disregard of our laws. The next one will be equally successful.
We need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We need to restore respect for the law and the faith of the American people that their government is not selling them out. Amnesty for the illegal aliens is also amnesty for the corrupt companies who have been employing them. Money trumps everything, including love of country. Multi-nationals have no loyalty to country by definition, they see us as a market, not a nation. They see people as workers, documented or undocumented, no difference. If they can't send the work to where the labor is cheaper, then they want to bring the cheap labor here. Citizenship is meaningless.
If we love our Constitution and our representative Republic and we intend to keep it we must not surrender our sovereignty or abandon the rule of law. Profits must not supercede security. We should not create a new path to citizenship. We have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other country, illegal aliens have ignored it and bad choices do have consequences.
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What if instead of omnibus bills with triggers we have more modest and discrete bills in scope, but are infinitely more effective.
So trigger one is a bill that builds the Fence and creates effective enforcement.
Then come back a year or two later after the Fence is built and say to the American people, "the fence is built and working, but we have some unfinished work to do and here is what we propose, as always feel free to give us your input."
That is limited bills that work trigger further limited bills, etc. |
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Who cares about 2008 or Iraq War? We don't have a country anymore if this passes. We will be like Mexico, but with higher taxes and worse weather.
What's the point in voting in 2008..Illegals are already voting actively and this will only increase now. We'll have 100 million new welfare recipients demanding all kind of services.
I have just changed my position on war. Bring the troops home now. They are needed here (to take this country back). |
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Since Mexicans don't want Mexico, why don't we just march in and take it? They are rich in natural resources but can't find any Mexicans to do the work that Mexicans won't do. There are more Mexicans in LA County than in Mexico west of Mexico City. Who would stop us? And why? They obviously don't want the country. Let US give it a shot. |
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This reform proposal bill is bad enough, but I'm even more upset by the mentality, attitude, and arrogance that produced it.
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It makes no sense to surge in Iraq to try to prevent terrorism, at the same time you make it easy for the terrorists to hit you at home (with a bad border bill).
It is this type of inconsistency that makes McCain so dangerous. He is stubborn just like Bush and also quirky. He is always going off on tangents because he can broker a deal with the Dems. It always hurts the Rep Party and the country. He just is not a good deal maker and that is the kindest thing I can say.
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The Dems and also McCain and other Reps will not enforce the enforcement part once they get you sucked in and committed.
Tancredo was right we past a bill authorizing 800 miles of fence. 2 miles have been built so far. Further, the Govenor of TX flipflopped the minute he got in office and refuses to have a fence in TX. |
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After watching this gagle of misrepresentation called the "TOP TIER" by our free press(sic), I can't wait for the BOLD statements that get released by them regarding this bill! McCain will(AND SHOULD)be treated like an aids patient with a nose bleed! "Sanctuary Rudy" and "Flip Flop Mitt" will be digging through their photo albums to see if they can find any photo standing next to a border agent.(With 1500 a year quiting they need to find a photo to see what one looks like soon)Fred Thompson has publicly gone tough.(Hoping nobody remembers those one million illegals from Nicararagua in 1997 he voted amnesty for)....Meanwhile poor old Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter are out there begging stupid voters,"PLEASE LOOK AT OUR VOTING RECORDS!!!" Noone has quite figured out that if 77% of Tancredo's doners gave $200. or less, and 10% of Mitt's doners gave $200. or less, there might be a reason? It's a little tuff to tell Tancredo that "I own him" if a gave $87.50(Ha-Ha).....But I can vote!!!!! |
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McCain is the only candidate working with Democrats.
If you all think you can get a die-hard Republican elected in 2008 you are out of your cotton pickin' minds.
No Republican, McCain included, polls better than any Republican. McCain understands that. The rest of you are all just beating yourself righteous chests.
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A tsunami is coming, and though you can't hear the rumbling, I sincerely suggest you run for the hills, because this tsunami is going to swamp the Democratic Party as we know it out of existence. |
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Formal immigration policy may be set in Washington by presidents and senators, but how it actually works on the ground depends on how seriously local and state government actually approach enforcement. Instead of blaming McCain and other realists for belatedly trying to deal with an existing huge problem, why not look at how that problem developed in the first place?
The People’s Republic of Northern California is far from the only local government that has simply refused to enforce our existing immigration laws for much of the past 40 years. Specifically, before I would allow Giuliani or Romney to score political points at McCain’s expense on this issue, I’d like to hear of one single instance of immigration enforcement in Rudy’s NYC or Mitt’s MA during their tenures.
Were employers fined or prosecuted for hiring illegals? Was the immigration status of arrestees checked? Welfare and unemployment recipients? Drivers license applicants? I’ve never heard of NYC or MA doing anything like that under either man. Like most leftist cities and states; they brag about being compassionate (to cheaters, not to law-abiding immigrants and the rest of us), and about having don’t-ask policies regarding legal residency.
Rudy and Romney want to have it both ways. In practice they are pro-amnesty, but they don’t preach what they actually do. They let people like Tancredo take the heat for being pro-enforcement and they let people like McCain take the heat for talking amnesty. But they themselves get to talk tough yet do nothing. If it works, they please the left by being lax on immigration, and they can fool some of the right by talking a different tune.
Hopefully, it won’t work, and their empty talk will offend the left while their non-enforcement will offend the right. |
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Thaale,
you're making it up. Truthfully you don't know anything about Romney's record, do you?
Romney had the state police cooperate with federal authorities in turning over illegals to them (something that many states won't do) and I believe he vetoed a bill to give illegals cheap tuition.
Rudy's record is that he opposed the welfare reform bill because it would have taken benefits away from illegals. |
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Not wanting to pay for tuition for illegals is at least something, but it’s pretty minor. I don’t think McCain wants to do that, either. And it’s not an active step toward doing anything about enforcement, it’s just not adding another “right” to the many that illegals already informally enjoy. He didn’t buy all the illegals new Escalades either, but I’m not counting that as a proactive step that was taken.
Yes, as a lame duck in his last month of office Romney signed an order that would have allowed state police to cooperate with US Immigration. This order had no effect as Deval Patrick of course reversed it when he succeeded Romney right afterward. Signing last-minute “poison pen” laws that your successor will have to overturn is a cheap political ploy. Clinton did the same thing when he was leaving office. If Romney had really meant it, he would have issued that order four years earlier and then backed it up during his term! But that would have meant incurring intense heat from the open-borders crowd. How is this any different than what I said he did: talked tough but acted weak? |
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When the dikes broke during Katrina & flooded New Orleans, it would have been a useless waste of effort to start dealing with the flood waters before fixing the broken dikes; pumping out the old water would only make room for more to flood in. You had to fix the dikes first & stop the influx of water.
It's the same with the illegal immigration problem. We can't deal with the illegals already here in any realistic way until we stop the incoming flood of more. First, fix the border. Then, figure out what to do with those already here. |
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When you let Willie Horton out of prison, your future political career is in his hands. God forbid that any illegal immigrant commits an act of terror before the 2008 election. Anyone who can be blamed will be blamed. Anyone who can say, "I told you so" will tell you so. A number of senators have just rolled the dice. Should they lose, the voters will be unforgiving. |
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