Monday, August 25, 2008
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Speaker Pelosi v. Archbishop Chaput and the Teachings of the Roman Catholic Church
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Posted by:
Hugh Hewitt at
3:46 PM
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Here's what Nancy Pelosi said on Meet the Press yesterday:
REP. PELOSI: And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator--St. Augustine said at three months. We don't know. The point is, is that it shouldn't have an impact on the woman's right to choose. . . . As I say, the Catholic Church for centuries has been discussing this, and there are those who've decided...
MR. BROKAW: The Catholic Church at the moment feels very strongly that it...
REP. PELOSI: I understand that.
MR. BROKAW: ...begins at the point of conception.
REP. PELOSI: I understand. And this is like maybe 50 years or something like that. So again, over the history of the church, this is an issue of controversy.
(HT: Carol Liebau who discusses the whopper at Townhall's group blog.)
Last week I spent a couple of hours on air with Denver's Archbishop Charles Chaput. Nancy Pelosi should read the archbishop's new book, Render Unto Caesar, but does anyone really believe she doesn't know she lied through her teeth on an issue central to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. (I'd love for readers and listeners to order copies for her offices in D.C. and San Francisco --and to look for the opportunity to put the book into her hands.) There is no doubt about what the Church teaches about the sanctity of unborn life, and it didn't begin teaching that 50 years ago. Pelosi's attempt to cloud this issue is really despicable and deeply dishonest, a display of her fear of explaining her own position. The worst part is that she is attempting to spread confusion --lies really-- about the Church's teaching which could mislead others who genuinely would like to know what the Church teaches about the issue.
Here's what the archbishop noted last week on my show:
HH: Now you bring up the pro-life issue, and we’re going to spend a lot of time talking about it, so here’s my first foray into it. We are talking on August the 19th, and I expect to rebroadcast this interview in the future, so it will be on August 19th, but it’s going to be rebroadcast again. But this is three days after a big gathering in Saddleback Valley Community Church auditorium with my friend, Rick Warren, who you may very well know as well, talked to the presidential candidates. Were you satisfied that that was a serious conversation about the life issue, Archbishop?
CC: Well you know, I didn’t hear it when it was on. I heard some of the tapes afterwards, some of the session, and I didn’t hear all of it, so my comments will be in that context. I certainly thought that Senator McCain gave a very clear answer, and I’m always grateful when people give me what they think in a direct kind of way. You know, for Senator Obama to say that it’s above his pay grade to know when we should begin to respect the human dignity of an unborn person I think is evading the question. We all have to make that decision. Every time we vote, whether to vote in favor or against pro-choice, or pro-abortion legislation, is making a decision. So I think that he’s made decisions, each one of us has to make decisions all the time in our voting. So to say it’s above our pay grade just isn’t dealing with the issue appropriately. So I hope that both sides of the issue will speak clearly and directly so that we can make decisions based on the facts.
HH: Now I think probably the most controversial paragraph in the book, and by the way, my hat’s off to you for organizing this. You make people work to get to the controversy, because it’s in a context that has to be developed out of American history and Roman Catholic theology. But it’s on Page 229. “My friends often ask me if Catholics in genuinely good conscience can vote for a pro-choice candidate. The answer is I couldn’t. Supporting a right to choose abortion simply masks and evades what abortion really is, the deliberate killing of innocent life. I know of nothing that can morally offset that kind of evil.” Thank you for the clarity. Is that opinion widely held among the bishops, Archbishop?
CC: Well, I would suspect that’s where most of us stand. I don’t know that they always say it in the same way I said it, but I think most of us stand there. You know, many of us are hesitant to speak very publicly on this issue, because we’re accused of partisanship or whatever. And I think bishops have to be very careful. I haven’t registered in a party, because I don’t want the people to use that as an excuse to say that I’m partisan. So I think bishops really stand in the same place, but may not articulate it the same way I did.
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HH: Archbishop, I want to go back to the abortion discussion. Quoting again from one of the later chapters in your book, “One of the pillars of Catholic thought is this – don’t deliberately kill the innocent, and don’t collude in allowing it. We sin if we support candidates because they support a false right to abortion. We sin if we support pro-choice candidates without a truly proportionate reason for doing so, that is a reason grave enough to outweigh our obligation to end the killing of the unborn. And what would a proportionate reason look like? It would be a reason we could, with an honest heart, expect the unborn victims of abortion to accept when we meet them and need to explain our actions as we someday will.” Are you aware of any such proportionate actions out there, proportionate reasons right now, Archbishop?
CC: Well, let me give you two answers to that. You know, as I say, it’s hard for me to come to the conclusion there are proportionate reasons. But here’s a case where I’m certain there would be. If you have two candidates running for the same office, they’re the only choices, both of them are pro-choice, but one is much better on the other issues than the other. I think that you can choose the lesser of two evils with a clear conscience. You don’t have to. You can decide not to vote, or you can vote for a third person who couldn’t be elected. But in those circumstances, you would be voting for a pro-choice candidate, but not because the person is pro-choice, but because the alternative is a worse situation. I also know that, and this is the second point, I know many good Catholics who have given a lot of serious thought to the abortion issue, and will still vote for a candidate who is pro-choice. They’ll try to discourage that person from holding that position, they’ll work really hard within their party to get the party to change its platform if it’s pro-abortion. But they’ve kind of examined all the issues, and weighed them together, and still feel that in a particular situation, that the candidate that they are going to vote for who is pro-choice is a better of the two. And the Church, you know, says you can do that if you have a truly proportionate reason. And I hope they work hard at it, and I don’t always understand how they arrive at their conclusion. It’s hard to imagine in my mind anything worse than the destruction of more than a million unborn children in our country every year through abortion. But I think that sincere people really do arrive at those conclusions sometimes.
Note how the archbishop tries to understand how a Catholic could vote for a pro-abortion rights candidate. But there is no mistaking the centrality of the issue or where the Church stands on it. Speaker Pelosi was being as deceptive as any public figure I have ever heard address the subject of Catholic doctrine, and the bishops should immediately issue the necessary rebuke less anyone be misled by the willful deception.
The only thing Pelosi accomplished by attempting this dishonest ruse is to return the focus to Joe Biden's extreme pro-choice record (though he fails to match that of Obama's which is the most extreme record possible given he voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.) Biden supporters made much of his Catholic identity and roots this weekend, but passed over that once again the Dems have nominated a candidate who by definition is deeply at odds with the core teachings of his own church. Biden is supposed to help shore up the Catholic vote, Why would Mass-attending, observant Catholics vote for someone who quite obviously rejects the Church's teachings?
Come to think of it, order a copy of Chaput's book for Slow Joe's office as well.

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is not solely concerned with the issue of abortion. Indeed, one could just as easily ask why a Catholic would vote for someone like, say, John McCain, who is so obviously at odds with the Church's teachings on matters of war & peace, economics, etc?
The point is that while the Church can and does choose to prioritize its political concerns, so too do individual Catholic voters. And inasmuch neither party or candidate wholly represents Church dogma, no Catholic who votes will be able to honestly claim to have "voted Catholic." |
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in good standing. It is important for all Catholics to know that Joe Biden has decided to oppose the teachings of the Catholic Church on the sanctity of human life. His position on the issue of the sanctity of human life is directly and entirely contrary to the Church's teachings.
Biden's being Catholic in name is not a good reason to vote for him. In fact, for people who abhor dishonesty and hypocrisy, Biden's being Catholic and a leader in trashing the teachings of the Catholic Church is a good reason not to vote for him. |
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since you have taken it upon yourself to claim that JSM has taken positions in direct and clear contradiction to Catholic teachings, it is incumbent upon you to be specific. Gross generalizations prove nothing and mean less when it comes to identifying the teachings of the Catholic Church.
The Church is very clear, precise and definite in its teachings on abortion. It is quite simple to compare Joe Biden's positions on abortion to the Church's teachings.
How Senator McCain's positions on war, peace and the economy directly contradict the Church's teachings in this area are open to interpretation and discussion. The same cannot be said about Joe Biden's positions on abortion and the sanctity of human life.
You are trying to confuse the ignorant about whether or not Biden is a practicing Catholic. He is not. |
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Your statements are completely false, and really, if you don't actually know anything about the Catholic Church, you probably shouldn't be talking about it authoritatively.
Mark:
You're right, there are other issues to be concerned with. It's a matter of weight. I find the murdering of millions of babies a year to be much more important than just about anything else the candidates have to talk about. |
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results of Socialism and their struggles. They think--or so they claim--that Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Che, and the others who murdered nearly 200 million "fellow travelers" in the 20th Century all made mistakes that they can correct and are thus irrelevant.
Leftists have a faith stronger than most Christians, and refuse to even acknowledge that fact, even as it destroys them and all those around them.
Lemmings... Just narcissistic, heedless lemmings...
It will be sad for them on the day of judgment, when all their deeds are made clear to them--and the price they will have to pay. May some of them who read this blog be granted a spirit of repentance and the wisdom to turn back to the Light... |
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Say what? An inaccurate representation in the media/on the Internet of a faith's *actual doctrine*? As a Mormon, I find this possibility hard to believe. HOW COULD SUCH A THING HAPPEN???
/sarcasm |
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You are either an ignoramus of epic proportions or a blatant spreader of falsehoods and lies.
You clearly know NOTHING about anything as it pertains to what Rev. Hagee has said nor the context in which he said it. You also know NOTHING about anything involving spiritual matters, at all.
But do go ahead and spout your truly mindless drivel as if it actually means something.
Better yet, why don't you just go. |
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BUT there is a bit of a difference between voting for 'a lessor of two evils' when BOTH candidates support abortion. This is NOT the case in this election.
And if a Catholic can feel absolved by voting for a Pro-Abortion candidate based on 'other issues' I would like to know what issue(s) would make them feel it is ok to vote for a candidate that SUPPORTS INFANTICIDE!!!
INFANTICIDE IS MURDER BY ALL CIVILIZED STANDARDS no matter what a persons paygrade is.
So now the Dem-Lib 'progressives' have put forth a ticket where one man supports Abortion & the other supports the MURDER of Live Born Infants.
No Act of Contrition Will Absolve Anyone Who Supports a Team Like That!!
W/O= |
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to tie herself in knots over this.
Life begins at conception.
However, per the majority opinion in Roe v. Wade, the state does not have a compelling interest in the life of the unborn fetus until the beginning of the second trimester.
There. That wasn't so difficult was it?
Religion vs. the secular law of a modern society. |
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The Archbishop issued a statement today that stated in part "Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is a gifted public servant of strong convictions and many professional skills. Regrettably, knowledge of Catholic history and teaching does not seem to be one of them." Pelosi's daughter last year said that she had never ever heard that abortion was an intrinsic evil and this was after going to Catholic schools through elementary school, secondary school and college.
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It's not either or. She is both an epic ignoramus and a spreader of falsehoods. Kimberlost stated,"average high level GOPer, with the Catholic Church and their world view of women it's more about power over women than about the unborn fetus or a woman's health issues." Imagine in her mind,the GOP and Catholic Church who want to save preborn(even girl ones)children are really just exerting their power over woman. Abortion is not exerting power? Forget the fact DNA of the baby scientifically proves it is not the "woman's body." The power to deliberately cause an innocent to die is the greatest power in the law. Exerting it blindly is the greatest abomination.
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The 40 million slaughtered here are on you as much as the Jews slaughtered in Germany were on those compacent Germans who smelled the ovens. "The cultural environment for a human holocaust is present whenever any society can be misled into defining individuals as less than human and therefore devoid of value and respect."William Brennan (not the justice)
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Give me a break! You ask Jennifer to "offer sound reasoning as to why", she would support blah blah. You Libs choose your POTUS candidates and everything else by sheer emotion. If BO were white, he wouldn't even have name recognition in the DNC.
Sound reasoning would be a waste of your time. Look at your candidate...he's an embrrassment with his credentials.
President McCain is going to be a real thorn in our side about immigration, but he'll still be better than the no-drilling, infantacide killing, open border, terrorist sympathizer, hate-filled bigot reverand loving, high taxing, gun controlling, no national defense UN loving, socialized medicine boondoggle loving democrat lawyer in charge?
Did I mention he's black? You have a fatally flawed candidate, including his wife, that's unelectable to any person I know. So now the DNC wants me to support infantacide. Not on our watch, Kimmy.
-- Never blame malice where sheer incompetence is sufficient.
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No, I'm not the Pope, but I am a Catholic, and I know what my Church teaches. Nowhere in Church doctrine does it say Adultery gets you excommunicated. One of the only things that DOES get you automatically excommunicated, though, is procuring or helping to procure an abortion.
Adultery is a mortal sin, and as such, is a matter for Confession, just like all other mortal sins.
Like I said, if you don't know about the Catholic Church or what she teaches, please, keep your thoughts to yourself. Or at least research what you're spouting. |
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Marvin the Martian writes: Monday, August, 25, 2008 5:13 PM "Kimberly You are either an ignoramus of epic proportions or a blatant spreader of falsehoods and lies. "
Not either/or. Both.
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I can understand why those who seek to enlighten me regarding the proclivities of our resident troll Kim. However, in my defense, my either/or statement was specifically referencing her slanderous statements against the Rev. Hagee.
I understand that Kim is probably both an ignoramus and a liar in general, but in the instance of her slander of Hagee, I was giving her the benefit of the doubt in that only one egregious character flaw could be on display there. :) |
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BO "I BELIEVE IN ROE V WASR"! Thus I came up with The profession of the Democrat Party's Faith "The Obscene Creed" of Barack Obama: We believe in the One Man, the Candidate of Almighty Change, the hero of Roe v. Wade, We believe in one Nominee, Barack Obama, the only American son of a Luo Tribesman, Candidate from Community Organizer, Lightweight Christian from the Illinois State Senate, weaned on Chicago Machine Politics and in GD America Reverend Wright's Trinity Church of Christ, true World Citizen of US birth, brainwashed, Globalist, one in thought with Alinsky the Father of US Marxism through Saul all Democrats were molded, for US voters and for our salvation, he came across from Hawaii, by the power of a generous Spirit his dad received a scholarship in America where he was born of the secular humanist Ann Dunham, and became a Politician. For our sake, he was verbally crucified under Hillary Clinton, he suffered, his campaign almost died nearly being buried during the early contests, in the Third Primary, held in South Carolina, he rose again, in fulfillment of the Main Stream Media Scriptures he ascended to the Nomination of our Democrat Party, and is seated far to the left hand of abortion promoting liberal "Catholic" Joe Biden his VP. He will come again in glory as President to Judge whether the living unborn and wounded babies of botched abortions should be condemned to death, and his Presidential term will end the Pro-Life movement and serve to further decimate the black population of America. We believe in the Evil Spirit of Pro-Choice, the taker of Life, which proceeds from defeating the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. As a result of supporting the legalization of Partial Birth Abortions, Barack Obama is worshiped and glorified by NRAL (National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League)
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He has spoken through the Prophets of the liberal MSM. We believe in the wholly speculative Gaia Hypothesis accepting its ecological dogma named after the Greek Earth Goddess and await for America to be sacrificed economically by the implementation of the Kyoto Protocol preached by our proselytizing Apostles who worship at the altar of the Universal Church of the UN. Although secular, this movement is practiced with religious like fervor for its fundamental tenets apply to the fear of Man Made Global Warming which is not grounded in the Scientific Method but accepted as faith based on the wholly subjective consensus of the "world's leading experts". We acknowledge the skyrocketing cost of fossil fuels as the redemptive baptism needed for the forgiveness of our Carbon emitting sins. We look for the resurrection of a Liberal Supreme Court to legislate from the bench perpetuating the number of dead children legalized by its Roe v. Wade decision and for US self governance to decline via the "Global tests" proposed by the UN dominated Life of the World to come. Amen. http://powdertracks.blogtownhall.com/2008/08/24/nicene_vs_o bscene_creed_of_barack_obama.thtml
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Catholic doctrine prohibits contraceptive drugs and devices, don't you?
Do you oppose those as well?
If not, why not? |
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"I ask again should those who abort be held criminally liable?"
Given that currently it isn't against the law, it is kind of a moot point.
However, if it were outlawed, then of course there should be some punitive actions taken. |
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I'm about as Catholic as you can get. I went through twelve years of Catholic school. My work for peace during the Viet-Nam war was through the church, and I'm very proud of that.
Part of our religious study during my class' senior year was on biblical history and church history. We studied the history of the gospels, the early Church, the development of doctrine, etc.
We did not dwell on abortion, but what Pelosi talks about seems to be what I recall from my religious instruction classes from that year. So I think she's right in this case. |
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Pelosi is right?
Give Humanae Vitae a read, will you.... |
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Absolutely! Murder one!! Instant death penalty no parole. No mercy for infanticide, yet you libtards want to protect the murdering sociopath and leave the innocent to be exterminated! Save the whales Becky, vacuum out an innocent human being and throw it in the dumpster to rot. Don't you see how libtarded you are? |
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The Very Sane Woman Who Points Out the Obvious writes: Monday, August, 25, 2008 8:21 PM You Know, I Think Pelosi Is Correct I'm about as Catholic as you can get. I went through twelve years of Catholic school. My work for peace during the Viet-Nam war was through the church, and I'm very proud of that.
Part of our religious study during my class' senior year was on biblical history and church history. We studied the history of the gospels, the early Church, the development of doctrine, etc.
We did not dwell on abortion, but what Pelosi talks about seems to be what I recall from my religious instruction classes from that year. So I think she's right in this case.
Arch says"
My God woman, you are really lost in the ozone. Did you not just read the arch bishop's statement Hugh posted above? You must have been to a libtard catholic church to be taught those tenets. |
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I'm no Catholic OR Evangelical, Babycakes. That said, it isn't quantifiably possible that you and Nancy are as stupid as you sound. Focus, Briggsy: See, IF the sperm & the egg don't come into close-up contact, there ain't NO human life. There. See?
When those rascals DO get together and burrow & hug and split and...THAT'S LIFE. Find me, please, a physiology professor who doesn't agree. Sheesh. |
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Speaker Pelosi is a real "piece of work", an anti-American-loving hypocrit, tells terrorists in Syria that America is wrong, wants to continue to send $720 billion every year to OPEC'ers who hate us ( Saudi Arabia may be running out of oil), rather than let us tap our own resources for the future safety of America. When the oil shortage in the mid-east hits, she wants America to go belly-up from lack of fuel to defend ourselves and our allies. The democrats are definitely NOT our friends. Drill Now, Build Now for the furure of America. Pelosi be damned.
Vote McCain for America! John Portland |
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