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Tuesday, December 12, 2006
FAQ - The Shiites and the Sunnis
Posted by: Dean Barnett at 11:35 AM

1) Who are the Sunnis and the Shiites?

They are the two main sects of Islam. And generally speaking, they’re not crazy about each other.

2) What are the differences between them?

Historically, they suffered their fissure 13 centuries ago when they differed over who the rightful heir to Muhammad was. Beyond that little nugget, the typical congressman shouldn’t have to worry his pretty little blow-dried head about the origins of the two sects.

The Sunnis historically were much more political than the Shiites. Devout and fundamentalist Sunnis felt (and feel) that there can be no law above the Koran. That means they feel that government by necessity must be a theocracy. Also, fundamentalist Sunnis consider Shiites to be apostates. An apostate is an even worse thing to be than an infidel.

Shiites traditionally were relatively non-political. You’ve seen this kind of Shiite philosophy in action in Iraq where Ayatollah Sistani supported the formation of a secular government and declined to claim the reins of leadership himself.

3) So who’s Sunnis and who’s Shiite?

The Shiite majority countries are Iran and Iraq . The Sunni majority countries are everyone else.

4) But wait. I thought you said Shiites were more open to secular governments than Sunnis. Then how do you explain Iran? Is Iran not a theocracy?

The ascension of the Khomenist Shiites in the late 1970’s marked a sea-change for the Shiite world. The Khomenists brought theocratic dictates to the Shiite realm. Before that and even after that, Shiites would have secular leaders like Yasser Arafat who in spite of his many flaws was at least not a religious nut. But with the Khomenists’ star continuing to rise, the Shiites are becoming every bit as radicalized as the most radical Sunnis.

5) Can Sunnis and Shiites get along?

While of course tolerant people of any faith can get along, rigid fundamentalist Sunnis and Shiites don’t get along. Like I said, the radical Sunnis like the Wahabists and those in Al Qaeda consider the Shiites to be apostates. The Khomenists think much the same about their Sunni brethren.

6) Why’s that?

Because they practice slightly different faiths. The Shiites like Ahmadenijad wait for the 12th Imam. The Sunnis like bin Laden consider this apostasy. And vice versa.

7) But wait. You said Syria is a Sunni country. And yet they seem pretty snug with Iran. What gives?

The controlling Baath party in Syria is part of the Shiite Alawi sect. Even though the Alawis make up only 10% or so of the population, they are in firm control. So Assad cooperating with Iran is a Shiite/Shiite partnership.

8) How come the Sunni majority tolerates Assad’s leadership?

It’s a dictatorship, dummy. Dictatorships get “tolerated” until they’re not anymore. But since Hafez Assad seized power in 1970, he and his chinless ophthalmologist son have had a solid grip on things. When the so-called war on terror started, Syria was considered a low-hanging fruit because of the country’s massive Sunni majority and Bashir Assad’s weak nature. But the fruit has gotten a lot higher over the past several months with Israel’s failed war against Hezbollah and Iran’s increasing brazenness in supporting its Syrian puppets.

9) What really worries me is that Iran will get a nuclear bomb and then give it to Al Qaeda. Am I wrong to have such a concern?

Right church, wrong pew. So to speak. Iran and Al Qaeda will never work together. Ever. Iran is run by fundamentalist Shiites. Al Qaeda is composed of the world’s most radical Sunnis. They hate each other even more than they hate us. Iran would never give Al Qaeda a weapon of mass destruction because if they did, it would be every bit as likely to detonate in Tehran as in Manhattan.

But Iran has its own terror group that is more lethal, better funded and better organized than Al Qaeda. Iran runs Hezbollah. If Iran wanted to give a weapon of mass destruction to a terrorist group, it wouldn’t need to outsource the project. Its own in-house terrorist brand is a lot more efficient at what it does than the cave-dwelling losers who comprise Al Qaeda.

10) That’s sobering. I guess we should be fighting Iran and Hezbollah. After all, we did declare a global war on terrorism and together they represent the globe’s most dangerous terrorist threat.

Yes, we should. And the fact that we aren’t tells you all you need to know about the Global War on Terror. At this point, it’s a pile of hooey. After we got to Al Qaeda and made them pay for 9/11, our country lost interest.

11) So, the big question: Can the Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis live peacefully alongside each other?

It depends on how fundamentalist and radicalized each sect in Iraq is. We know each sect has its elements that are bent on violence. The question is whether these elements are fringe groups or the mainstream. If they’re fringe groups, they can be destroyed and peace could break out. If they’re the mainstream, there’s no hope.

12) So what if they’re the mainstream? Then what?

Then the country has to be broken up, with the Sunnis getting a piece and the Shiites getting a piece and the Kurds holding onto their piece.

13) That’s disappointing. It doesn’t quite match the original vision of an Islamic Jeffersonian democracy that swirled about our heads three years ago, does it?

Radical Shiites and radical Sunnis have as much interest in living in a Jeffersonian Democracy as the typical American has living under Sharia. The quicker we come to peace with that fact, the better.

14) Now that I know all this stuff about Shiites and Sunnis, I’m not sure it was such a good idea to invade Iraq. Gosh, I probably should have read some books between 2001 and 2003. Anyway, are we better off having invaded Iraq? Did I do the right thing supporting the war?

Relax. You did the right thing in supporting the war. We cannot afford the existence of states that will support and sponsor terrorism, especially terrorism aimed at us. That’s why Saddam had to go. And that’s why the lunatics in Tehran have to go. And it’s why Assad has to go as well.

15) But why can’t we just leave the region and end this national nightmare? Besides, I’m a Republican Senator up for reelection in ’08!

While we might want to disengage from the problems, our problems have no interest in disengaging from us. Believe it or not, Senator, there are more pressing national concerns than your reelection. If Iran and Hezbollah are allowed to continue on their current course, we will long for the good old days when the worst that the bad guys could do to us was fly a few airliners into buildings. Trust me on that.

Compliments? Complaints? Contact me at Soxblog@aol.com.



View in ascending order View in descending order
jack writes: Thursday, December, 14, 2006 9:08 AM
bottom up
This article makes me think we should have started with the low hanging fruit first -- liberate Syria and destroy Hezbollah; then move up to Saddaam; etc. Solve the easier problem before doing the harder, not vice versa.
ScarletPimpernel writes: Wednesday, December, 13, 2006 10:04 AM
thanks Deadpan
excellent summary of the sunni-shia histories. I might add that in Afghanistan the Sunni treat the Shias like slaves and dogs as well. The Taliban were seen as heroes for fighting the Russians. Then things went Animal Farm when the young toughs from the Taliban found time on their hands. The women were treated the worst. I get frustrated by folks who say the "Arabs" or the "Muslems" don't want democracy. B.S. Lebanon and Syria are full of people waiting to try it. I believe Lybia also could work. Afghanistan and Iraq had millions of people brave the situation to vote. With a little more encouragement from us they could be the new Civil Rights heroes.
Mike writes: Wednesday, December, 13, 2006 9:16 AM
What dead-enders won't admit
"The Saddam who posed a threat to his neighbors but none whatsoever to America? *That* Saddam?"

Yes, that Saddam, the same one mentioned in this key finding of the Duelfer Report:
___________________________________________
"By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo, by the end of 1999."

"Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq’s WMD capability—which was essentially destroyed in 1991—after sanctions were removed and Iraq’s economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop a nuclear capability—in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks—but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities."
______________________________________________

It is clear now that Saddam hoped to re-establish a WMD program -- he simply had to finish wiggling out of the sanctions first. So we have a madman sitting on huge oil reserves, nursing a seething desire to avenge his humiliation at the hands of the Americans and bent on acquiring the weapons that would allow him to save face.

A good argument can be made that Iran was (and is) a greater threat than Saddam, and that we should have taken out Iran and not Iraq.

Good arguments can also be made that the invasion and occupation of Iraq have been poorly handled or bungled or whatever, just choose the Bush-bashing term best fits your level of hate.

But in light of what we have learned since the invasion, I see no way to argue that Saddam should have been ignored.

But you dead-enders are never going to admit this stuff, are you?

Fenderdeluxe writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 9:20 PM
Saudis...
"...but the Saudis are not our friends. They've been exporting Wahhabism and Salafism (essentially the same fundamentalism) throughout the world by paying for mosques and paying imams to preach in them. They are the true source of the terrorist jihad on the world, since they have caused it to spread and radicalize Muslims in all over. "

Nail meet hammer. That's exactly right in my view. But on a practical level, I'm not sure what can be done about it. The Saudis, in so many ways, live in separate worlds. They are just reasonable and cooperative enough on one hand, but then on the other, do the exact opposite by spreading Salafism. It all seems so passive/aggressive. How do you pressure a government like that - that no other countries want to pressure (read: oil) - to change??? I'm really at a loss. It's very clever the way they do their thing.
PierreLegrand writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 8:27 PM
Shiites and Sunnis collaborate...
To think otherwise is to be misinformed.
Deadpan writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 7:14 PM
There is a long history of domination
Sunnis see themselves as being the only true Muslims who have the right to rule wherever they are. When we destroyed Saddam's government, it was like issuing an Emancipation Proclamation.

Shiites venerate the early martyrs of Islam and their Imams who were in the bloodline of Mohammed. They build shrines and hold processions and pilgrimages to them.

The Sunni fundamentalists ban all such practices. When the Saudis took over the cities of Mecca and Medina they destroyed all the shrines build through the ages. They even destroy headstones in cemeteries.

The view the Shiites as less than infidels, more like traitors to Islam than fellow muslims. Now the Shiites have been given a chance for power over their own lives and they won't give it up gladly.

We should also recognize the differences between Khomeini, who followed Marxist principles in establishing the Iranian Revolution and Hizbollah, and traditional "quietist" Shiites like Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who has encouraged most of our efforts to establish a democratic government. Muqtada al-Sadr strikes me and wanting to be the Iraqi version of Khomeini, but he is the son of an Ayatollah venerated as a Martyr after being liquidated by Saddam. If anybody takes him out, we had better not be involved.

The most important thing more most Iraqis is that they not be subjected to Sunni rule again. They are not likely to turn to Iran for the same reason many of them fought in the Iran Iraq war. They consider themselves Arabs and the Iranian Persians and do not want the Mullahs any more than a return to the Baathists, who are secular and tend toward fascism.

This is a very important post, Dean. I'm glad that people are beginning to wake up to the deep ignorance of the Sunni-Shia differences.

My view is that we can live with traditionalist Shiites, but the Saudis are not our friends. They've been exporting Wahhabism and Salafism (essentially the same fundamentalism) throughout the world by paying for mosques and paying imams to preach in them. They are the true source of the terrorist jihad on the world, since they have caused it to spread and radicalize Muslims in all over.
PierreLegrand writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 4:09 PM
Shia and Sunni's will collaborate!
Heather,

Thank you for the kind words. But I must insist that this be done correctly. Dean is incorrect to state that Sunni and Shia will not collaborate, they are doing it in Iraq, they have been doing it with Al Qaeda. We are simply too big a mouthful for any one group to swallow. We are not dealing with fools. None of them believe they can take us on by themselves...

We have been dealing with too much misinformation to continue down this path. I hope that Dean does not take this the wrong way but in the almost 6 years since we have been attacked we have STILL not correctly identified our enemy.

Let us not forget the Marines suffered their worst single day in casualties since WW2 not in Korea, not in Vietnam but at the hands of Shia Muslims operating under the banner of Iran.
heather writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 3:25 PM
great precis!
Now, this little overview should be copied and sent to every single member of Congress. I am Canadian, and so will send it to Harper and anyone else I can track down in the Federal Govt.

Legrand and Patty have good additions; however, we can't be too complicated the first time round for these guys. Their attention span is extremely short. Just learning "Sunni", "Shia" and "Kurd" will be enough.
Patty writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 3:19 PM
Kurds are both Sunni & Shia
Your well-done analysis should probably should be printed into pamphlet form and handed out at dinners within the beltway.

One detail: In discussions regarding Iraq,commentators often divide Iraq into 3 parts - the Sunni, the Shia, and the Kurds. (in point 12, you do this).

This is confusing because the Kurdish are an ethnic group not a religion.

Just as the Irish come from Ireland and can be Protestan or Catholic, so the Kurds come from Kurdistan, and can be either Sunni or Shia, (or even Christian or Jewish, for that matter.)

My understanding is that the majority of the Kurds are Muslims, and the majority of the Kurdish Muslims are Sunni.
Blu writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 3:15 PM
three words, Snap
(1)Terrorist (2)training (3)camps.

As I've said many time, you don't know anything about this topic. Go away. Find a library. Read a book.
PierreLegrand writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 2:59 PM
Thanks though for the opportunity
To comment
PierreLegrand writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 2:55 PM
Btw why don't tags work?
Very difficult to be clear without tags.

PierreLegrand writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 2:54 PM
Sorry Dean
Right church, wrong pew. So to speak. Iran and Al Qaeda will never work together. Ever. Iran is run by fundamentalist Shiites. Al Qaeda is composed of the world’s most radical Sunnis. They hate each other even more than they hate us. Iran would never give Al Qaeda a weapon of mass destruction because if they did, it would be every bit as likely to detonate in Tehran as in Manhattan.

This is not actually factual. This is the same logic that stated Saddam and Al Qaeda would not work together. For that matter who would have guessed that the Soviets and Nazis would work together, or that after that relationship broke up that the Soviets would work with us. From the Washington Post.

On Iran, by contrast, the report concludes that al Qaeda's relationship with Tehran and its client, the Hezbollah militant group, was long-standing and included cooperation on operations, the officials said. It also details previously unknown links between the two, including the revelation that as many as 10 of the Sept. 11 hijackers may have passed through Iran in late 2000 and early 2001 because Iranian border guards were instructed to let al Qaeda associates travel freely, sources familiar with the report have said.

Commission and government officials emphasize that they have found no indication that Tehran knowingly helped in the plot. But the commission report will cite evidence that Iran allowed al Qaeda members into the country even after the attacks.


The rest of the post was well done.
ScarletPimpernel writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 2:43 PM
great summary Dean
I said I learned all I know from reading Vince Flynn novels (haha. I know, but read them and see if the newspapers don't have the same stories in them). But had all the info in this article been stuffed into a novel of his I would have put it down after about 50 pages. My head is a spinnin'.
ScarletPimpernel writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 2:40 PM
snappa
change your name to non-sequiter. it would fit better. it's like herding cats trying to figure out your points. you started out nicely then it just fell apart.
Otter writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 1:31 PM
Just keep ignoring ALL history
prior to Bush getting into office, snappedDigger. The rest of us will continue to get a clue and work to solve the problem- well, we would if you and yours hadn't handed Congress over to jihadist enablers.
snapDigger writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 1:28 PM
Someday, Someday...
"Relax. You did the right thing in supporting the war. We cannot afford the existence of states that will support and sponsor terrorism, especially terrorism aimed at us. That’s why Saddam had to go."

The same Saddam who hadn't sponsored an anti-American terrorist act since the '90s (the attempted Bush I assassination)? The same Saddam who was a *secular* dictator loathed by the Islamists we're supposedly so terrified of? The Saddam who posed a threat to his neighbors but none whatsoever to America? *That* Saddam?

Someday, you dead-enders are going to admit this stuff, just as red-diaper babies were forced to admit that the Rosenbergs were Commies. But for now, your response will probably be some Stephen Hays-inspired blather about how Saddam was really, truly a friend of the Islamists (the equivalent of those ex-communists trying to prove that there really were no communist agents in the U.S., it was all J. Edgar Hoover's lies, comrade).
Otter writes: Tuesday, December, 12, 2006 11:42 AM
How muslims discuss islam with a
non-muslim:

NM: What IS the difference between sunni and shia, anyway?

M: Infidel! How DARE you criticize how faith! You MUST be silenced!

(Hate to say, but in the last year I've seen enough to know this is a pretty close approximation. And YES. The response is very often that big of a disconnect from what one is trying to do.)
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