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Saturday, January 24, 2009
Phil Harris :: Townhall.com Columnist
Atheism - A Godless Delusion
by Phil Harris
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Throughout the ages, a single question hangs on the face of mankind like a hairy wart on the end of the nose. Each of us will live our lives, raise our children, and then lay down to die with this question asked, but never answered.

Who am I, and why am I here?

It is a question that Richard Dawkins and other rejectionists can never answer through the scientific method; although, they claim all mysteries of the Universe would surely be unraveled given enough time and study. In a rather perverse twist, it is those who believe that life continues that are assured to know all there is to know, while those who reject life beyond death will simply evaporate, along with the composite chemicals that give the illusion of self, knowledge, and consciousness.

Am I simply a clump of molecules, arranged in a complex fashion after billions of years of trial, error, and happenstance? This raises more questions for me than I had before, such as these:

Given that some concoction of chemicals accidently, and astoundingly became arranged in such a fashion that the spark of life came into existence, then…

…what additionally came into existence (chemically), to cause these innate compounds to seek their own survival, diversification, self improvement via evolutionary processes, self-discovery, and an insatiable awareness and curiosity about the environment and Universe?

It is amazing to realize that such an incredible chemical accident occurred on a planet that hangs in an orbit so precisely tuned distance-wise to the Sun. How fortunate that this same planet includes physical systems of weather and climate that insure fresh water cycles in such a way to support life of all types.

How incredible to note, that distinct clumps of "living" molecules have somehow colluded to assign life-sustaining roles to each other, such as the idea that plant life should process carbon-dioxide into oxygen, which is necessary for animal life, which in turn exhales carbon-dioxide. That animal life should consume plant life, and then excrete the digested plant life, which in turn would provide nutrients for new plant life.

The ridiculous caricatures of "God" that Dawkins and devout atheists stand up for the purpose of knocking them down have no chance when compared to these ingenious chemical compounds.

I may not hold the educational credentials of the likes of Dawkins, but I am intelligent, open minded, scientifically curious, and mindful of how little is truly known about the Universe we live in, despite the considerable knowledge that has been accumulated.

I can understand how one might look at all that is wrong in the world, and wonder how there could be a God looking on, seemingly uncaring and unwilling to stop the suffering. It is also easy to look at the behavior of mankind in the name of religion, or with religion as the excuse for unspeakable deeds and wonder how there is any goodness to be worshiped. Of course, this gives mankind a pass and places the blame for atrocious behavior at the foot of God instead.

The fallacy of such thinking lies in the assumption that God is misbehaving according to some Book of Proper God Behavior that I or anyone else is privy to. Must we believe that if God is real, that God is manipulating life on Earth, as if playing some kind of video game?

This clump of self-aware chemical compounds will continue to believe that there is more to the story of life and the Universe, than an unbridled, unstoppable run of chemical reactions. In fact, until Richard Dawkins can demonstrate the acquired ability to mix up a batch of molecules and produce a single blade of grass that is eager to join the evolutionary process, then I will take by faith that God does exist.

I will also take great interest in scientific discovery about the world and Universe I live in. One can appreciate both the scientific method and have a faith based view at the same time. Academics that have devoted themselves to eradicate religious views and those who hold them have absolutely no scientific basis on which to stand. Indeed, their willingness to claim otherwise should provide good reason for caution when considering any work they produce.

My mother and my daughter no longer inhabit this world, and I have no reason to believe that the persons they were, simply vanished due to the dissolution of their chemical processes. There is a spark beyond chemistry that is life and person, and whatever it is will exist despite the protestations and ridicule from Richard Dawkins and those who find comfort in utter nothingness.

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About The Author

Phil Harris is a software engineer, author of Cry for the Shadows and blogs at Citizen Phil.

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response to Freddie 9:42 PM
Actually I don't think that evolution says we evolved from monkeys. Evolution says that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. Big difference.

As for transitional species - How would you define that? If it's intra-species, then we have a change within a species (same species). If it's a new species, then it's a new species. What exactly is this transitional species? Is it the old one or the new one? There are plenty of species out there that are closely tied. At what level of genetic similarity are you willing to say that it's a transitional species as opposed to "just another species"? (maybe 98%..)

If you don't want to buy evolution, you can always move the goalposts on the definition for the "missing link". Too little change - intra-species adaptation. Too much - a whole new species. If you want proof it's up to you to define acceptable criteria.

Along those same lines - do you know what the mechanism is for environmental adaptation? I'll give you a hint - think mutation and selection. Drawing an arbitrary line on how far those mutations can go (keep it within a "species") will also require some explanation on your part.

Freddie
The "crock" is your understanding of evolution.

"According to advocates of Darwin's theory of evolution, monkeys evolved into apes, and apes evolved into early humanoids, who evolved into man."

Wrong, early humanoids and apes evolved from a common ancestor which is, you guessed it, now extinct. This means the rest of your post is incorrect as well. If you want to debate evolutionary theory you would do yourself a service to understand it first.

not knowing
it seems that a common theme in religion is the alleviation of all doubt. It allows people to wash their hands of all the big questions/worries... where did I come from, why am I here, where will I go... These are all answered by religion... emphatically.

The religious mind is not very comfortable with unanswered questions. The scientific mind is. Actually, the scientific mind lives for unanswered questions. That's what science is all about.

It really seems that much of the debate revolves around this central issue. How much uncertainty can you handle?

Religion offers step by step instructions for living your life, and tells you what you'll get in return. Aetheism offers none of this, so its members had better be comfortable with a great deal of uncertainty.

BTW - I find it interesting that debates about evolution / darwinism always seem to dissolve into discussions about abiogenesis. Just wanted to mention that evolution starts when the first replicator emerges. Evolution does not cover the emergence of the first replicator. That's a separate debate, but most darwin antagonists like to tie them together. For one, they don't seem to understand the difference. If they do know the difference, they throw it in to discredit the theory. Abiogenesis is a tougher argument than the evolution of self replicators.

OBSERVATION
According to advocates of Darwin's theory of evolution, monkeys evolved into apes, and apes evolved into early humanoids, who evolved into man.

Since apes and monkeys still walk the earth, this obviously didn't all happen in one hit.

And if we still have apes and monkeys, how come nobody has ever observed an ape or a monkey in the process of "becoming?"

If nobody has ever observed a transitional species, commonsense says inter-species evolutions (as opposed to intra-species evolutionary adaptations to specific environmental conditions) is a crock!

Consciousness
There is currently no possibility of a physical explanation for consciousness, either of how it exists or how it arose because there is no current physical definition of it and, I maintain, no possibility of a physical definition of it.

Chuck
If I may I would like to change my earlier answer. A logical and reasoned possibility for a natural process that would give rise to consciousness could be that competition among none conscious species required for a development in consciousness. Not being an evolutionary biologist or scientist at all I have no evidence of this, it’s only a theory, but as I promised, a reasoned and logical possibility.

anderson659
I am well aware that MellorSJ2 partakes in name calling but it was you accused me of the same, hence my response to you.

If you read my post to you at 8:56 Jan 26, you will see that I fully admitted to insinuation but… “Perhaps you conveniently missed all of that. Then again it does take a certain reading comprehension that most homosexual militants do not possess.”

It seems you will insist that I am homosexual, that’s ok. You have a belief, and I know it to be false. This is something I have come quite accustomed to on TH.

Fab. C. and Orlando
Early mono-theists were most certainly persecuted and the fact the prevailed shows great credit to their perseverance. However, later on after they were established, they certainly ruled and imposed their beliefs by force. This imposition continues today although it is more in-direct and less forceful. The short version: You’re both right.

So tell me Fab...
.. are you a bona fide current resident of PA?

Me too...
... time to think about dinner...

Very good
But unfortunately, I've got to go, so maybe this discussion can continue some other time.

M_from_idaho
"I did not say you should confer respect on any belief, only that you should treat others respectfully."

You have a point. But that is very difficult indeed. Consider the bombast of USPatriot56, or the insanity of Anderson659. Then there are the scripture quoters who clearly do not have the brains to understand that when the veracity of the bible is under question, quoting it as truth is not an argument. And finally--and perhaps most disturbing--we have the folk who once in a while flash some intelligence (Chuck for example) who then utterly destroy it. See four posts above.

"This is not an excuse. Any effort at raising the level of discussion is better than that of lowering it."

You make a good point.

"Yes, smoking is stupid, but that does not mean that those who engage in it are stupid in other areas."

How many stupid things are required before a determination of "stupid" is made?

"Truth be told, many of us, myself included, have done some stupid things. Should all of us be marginalized?

No, but there comes a point where respectful argumentation only encourages them, and the only proper response is mockery. Discussing the supposed safety of smoking, for example. Or the advantages of crystal healing. Or the infallibility of the pope. Flat earthers. Young earth creationists. Those who quote scripture as truth.

Nonetheless, I accept your point. Sorry.


MellorSJ2
Since surprisingly this discussion is still a going concern over two days after its original posting I thought I'd respond to your response of my posting. (#36)

“I see no reason for confer any respect on any belief unsupported by evidence.”

I did not say you should confer respect on any belief, only that you should treat others respectfully.

“True. But TownHall wouldn't be the place for that now, would it.”

This is not an excuse. Any effort at raising the level of discussion is better than that of lowering it.

“My late partner was one of the three smartest people I ever knew, but smoking killed her. I call that stupid.”

Yes, smoking is stupid, but that does not mean that those who engage in it are stupid in other areas and should be marginalized, as you suggest in your original post(#22). Truth be told, many of us, myself included, have done some stupid things. Should all of us be marginalized? I hope not.

In short
Chuck is recommending a book that contains fifty essays from "scientists" who believe in "scripture" and ignore or distort the facts. And admit it!

Ashtar gave this book 5 stars for the same reason I would based on these excerpts: Straightforward evidence of the lunacy of those who think the earth was created in six days.

Whoo boy.


Ashtar's favorite (and mine)

And finally, the ultimate gem of them all, a real shocker, already a classic, and suitably placed at the very end of the book.

>>>>KURT P. WISE (s. 332) Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand.>>>>>

And there you do indeed stand.

As for the Earth (and science), "and yet she moves".

Warmly recommended.

Third quote
>>>>> ELAINE KENNEDY (s. 294-295) Those of us who believe in a short chronology and a six-day creation do not have an adequate explanation for radiometric dates; however, we do know that much research needs to be done and we know multiple interpretations of the distributions concerning the processes involved are possible. Despite this possibility, dates are often used to refute biblical chronologies as though no questions or arguments oppose these conclusions. When interpreting scientific data, I use the same techniques and approaches as my colleagues, but my assumptions come from my biblical paradigm. I often recognise conflicts; indeed, the geologic literature reminds my daily that conflict exists, and many aspects of the geologic record are difficult to explain to the satisfaction of my colleagues or myself. This does not mean that they are correct and I am wrong, but rather that much research needs to be done. This attitude seems an impossible bias to some, but I find my faith leaves me open to alternatives, while I continually question the interpretations in my work because of my science. (...) Although I have been a Christian since I was seven years of age, it was not until I was in the midst of my geologic education that I decided to include my geologic assumptions within a biblical world view. In effect, I realised that I consider God's revelation more valid than human reason, because I experience His recreative power in my life daily.>>>>>

Ashtar's Comment: Elaine Kennedy admits that scientific evidence disproves the Bible, but she has decided to remain a creationist anyway, for purely psychological reasons, "because I experience His recreative power in my life daily". How sad. She could have become a good geologist.


Second quote
">>>>>STEPHEN TAYLOR (p. 284) I became a Christian at the age of 16 by seeking forgiveness for my sins and committing my life to the Lord Jesus Christ in a simple prayer. Although aware of the apparent contradiction between science and the Bible, the fact that Jesus believed in the Genesis account as historically true was enough to convince me as a young Christian that I should also! The disciple is not above His Lord. Many years later, I am more than ever convinced not only of the truth of the Christian gospel , but also of the harmony between the biblical revelation and true science. It is extremely important to realise that, contrary to what we are often told, there is no proven fact of science that can be shown to contradict the biblical account. When scientific theories appear to contradict, it is important to examine the evidence for and interpretation behind such ideas.>>>>>

Comment: Same basic story. At the age of 16, this man decided for some kind of psychological reasons to embrace a narrow, fundamentalist form of Trinitarian evangelical Christianity. Later, he distorted science to fit his preconceived subjective dogma!


Thx: Ashtar Command "Korton" on Amazon
Curious as to what was in Chuck's recommendation, I looked on Amazon. Here are some excerpts _from the book_ collected by an Amazon reviewer. My thanks.

">>>>>ANDREW SNELLING (p. 280): I believe in the creation of life by God in six literal days, and in God's destruction of life and the earth by a year-long cataclysmic global flood, for two reasons - first, and foremost, because the Bible clearly records these events as real, literal history, and second, because the scientific evidence, correctly understood, is totally consistent with this biblical account. As a geologist I continue to find scientific investigation of God's world very satisfying and exhilarating, because I always discover that ultimately the evidence in God's world agrees with what I read in God's Word.>>>>

Ashtar's Comment: Andrew Snelling believes in creationism first and foremost because the Bible tells him so. He then distorts the scientific evidence to "prove" his point. This is science?

anderson659
You ask, "Does the sentence about religion being an 'opiate of the masses' ring a bell?"

Yes it does.

You believe what Marxists say? Do you think they're straight forward and honest? Do you believe they understand the workings of the world? Do you let their definitions of things stand as the last word? Do you believe they won't say one thing and do another?

Try research.

An interesting easy read:
"in six days"

why 50 scientists choose to believe in creation,

edited by john f. ashton PhD, publisher, MasterBooks, paperback

Oh come now!
Brainless659 writes: "Mr. Mud Helmet Mellor does nothing but use name calling." (Love the irony in _that_.)

No no. You should know by now that mockery is my calling card. Name calling is just a sideline.


Roger D
Why is there such denial about creation?

Science is what we know today, and is dynamic. What we dont know is so much that it probably will never be unraveled.

Much has yet to be revealed

I have never understood how the created, presume to criticize the creator ?

Thoughts?

It's all abstract
I'll get to the point. You have one of those holographic pictures in front of your face. For a while you see hen scratches. If you use "both" eyes and "follow" instructions, a picture will hover about six inches above the paper. None of your five senses can detect it, but, there it is! For me, I use scripture for one eye and science for the other to detect God and see creation; for some this is impossible. By choice the atheists close the spiritual eye and the religious zealots close the scientific eye. Both don't get the true picture.
It's like someone said, "It's like explaining fire to a fish."
Creation had to have come first or this world would never have been assembled with such eloquence.
Billions of dollars invested in space exploration combined with a 25$ Bible and these great minds don't get it! What a waste.

RepAt, No, not hardly.
Mr. Mud Helmet Mellor does nothing but use name calling. It is what he understands and revels in. He also has an alter ego that he uses, or used to.

Perhaps you conveniently missed all of that. Then again it does take a certain reading comprehension that most homosexual militants do not possess.

You are entitled to your assertions, and your sly insinuations. Just dont pass them off as anything other than what they are.


Gilbert
"Republican's that want to attack these issues need to be a bit more pin-point with their mudslinging."

You Sir are absolutely right, but I fear your dream shall never be realized.

anderson659
Sure I was insinuating, but if that were the same as name calling it would be called name calling. So I'll stick with my assertion that I don't partake in much name calling, not that something like that should bother you. For someone that is so apt to call names (Mud Helmet) you sure are sensitive. It's dishing and taking, I'm sure someone explained that to you in grade school.

There are secular Republicans...
I am agnostic. I am a Conservative. I know atheist Republicans as well. The Demoncrats that are Christian don't seem to continuously attack the secular members of their own party. Republicans must stop eating their own. You can certainly identify the differences you have on the religion-related issues, but there is no reason to attack secular people in sweeping generalizations.

There are many good men and women I know personally that are secular, Republican, Conservative and disagree with the majority of the Dem's on even the religion-related issues. Republican's that want to attack these issues need to be a bit more pin-point with their mudslinging.

Barry Goldwater is rolling over in his grave over this issue.

MellorSJ2 Homosexual Militant Atheist
Mellor you are so full of yourself, get a grip.

Why don't you just blow away.....Cheers

donjindra- makes his own up.
Read Karl Marx. In no way is Christianity akin to Marxism, no matter what Gorbachev wants you to believe.

The Big Lie was everywhere in Soviet propaganda.

Marxism is a political, philosophy. Is that so hard to understand?

Does the sentence about religion being an "opiate of the masses" ring a bell?

Try going to a site other than the idiots that you cut and paste from.

Otherwise as one of the other authors pointed out you become nothing more than a useful idiot. And useful is questionnable.

RepAt/ Mud Helmet Mellor
Your insinuation was clear. I knew it when I answered the question. That insinuation is what homosexual militants proceed straight to every time.

As to calling people names, yeah, you do. And you also make clear insinuations as you did to me that are not at all anything more than name calling.

Hey mud helmet, while trolling around your homosexual web sites, let me save you some trouble. boxturtle. com. Start there.

Look for du, that would be Regan DuCasse, and Allen M who is LoveIs Equal or in his case LIE.

anderson659
Your assumption of my sexuality is false. I’m no homosexual, militant or otherwise. I don’t partake in name calling much either (except for Manuel he got me going a little). I only asked a question. You must admit that someone with such distaste for gays but such an extensive gay internet library is a bit curious.

I'd forgotten about that
"religion |ri'lij?n|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods"

You mean Stalin? Or Kim-il Jong? Why, yes!

I'd forgotten about this. Yes, indeedy. It was StandsHisGround who wrote: "She [that is, donjindra] actually called what the communists believe "Marxist religion"! Yes, you heard me right, Marxist religion. So apparently atheists reserve the right to call the belief system of other atheists "religion" - even if those atheists so branded no more believe in a Supreme Being or even the supernatural than the atheists calling them that."

Well, yes, StandsHisGround, atheists *do* reserve that right. Because that's the dictionary definition.


Standshisground – Marxist religion
The observation that Marxism is a religion is not mine. It's an old accusation. After all, Marxist dogma is modeled like the Christian religion. It has the mythic Garden of Eden stage of primitive communism, the forbidden fruit of means of production, the temptation and fall through capitalism, the lawgiver Marx, apostles like Engels, Holy words like Das Kapital, the certainty of a future historic battle between good and evil where good will again triumph, and the following paradise of the stateless perfect society. Zalkind even claimed the born-again, "New Man" was being fashioned under Soviet rule.

Many have seen this religious aspect. Reinhold Niebuhr wrote of the "imposing" doctrine of Marx: "It is more than a doctrine. It is a dramatic, and to some degree, a religious interpretation of proletarian destiny."

Even Bukharin complained that Marxism's "opponents and class enemies often treat it simply as a new mass religion." Then he proceeds to describe it in a glowingly religious manner.

Gorky even tried to convince Lenin to make the ideology more overtly religious through the "God-Seekers" movement.

After the Soviets fell, Sergei Kurginyan, a Russian communist revivalist said, "We regard communism not only as a theory but as a new metaphysics which leads to the creation of a new, global religious teaching." And, "It contains many fundamental features vitally important for civilization, features of a new world religion with its own saints and martyrs, apostles and creed."

Even Gorbachev admitted, "Communist ideology in its pure form is akin to Christianity."

So before you complain that atheists are trying to pull a fast one on you, do a little research.

BTW, I'm a he.


What?"
" I was pointed at several web sites to view what had been said about my posts."

There are websites that say things about Brainless659 says?

This I gotta see.

Perhaps, Fabius miracles happen
Mellor/Allen etc, hopefully will find their way home some day, much like the story of John Newton.

Newton went to sea, was a prisoner, worked on slavers, was a slave captain, and not a nice or good person. He turned his life around, and was ordained a minister in 1764. He found his personal salvation.

He was the one who wrote "Amazing Grace."

Coincidence
"I can understand how one might look at all that is wrong in the world, and wonder how there could be a God looking on, seemingly uncaring and unwilling to stop the suffering. It is also easy to look at the behavior of mankind in the name of religion, or with religion as the excuse for unspeakable deeds and wonder how there is any goodness to be worshiped. Of course, this gives mankind a pass and places the blame for atrocious behavior at the foot of God instead."

If you are going to criticize Dawkins and Hitchens it would be helpful to understand their argument. Atheists, by nature, do not blame God for anything, because, you know, atheists generally don't believe there is a God...

RepAt, your question?
Easy. I was pointed at several web sites to view what had been said about my posts. You militant homosexuals are fond of discussing the labels, and names, you call us here at TH on your web sites. I passed many of these comments on to other TH readers who had been mentioned as well.

When I posted a link just last week, a response was posted from David, who has the q-tips line at the bottom of his posts, to his site showing me he had posted my link on his homosexual web site.

He thanked me (sarcastically) for the info.

Anything elese RepAt? Here is another link passed on:

http://www.lc.org/profamily/school_liability_report.pdf

No need to thank me, I know you will enjoy it.

anderson659
How is it that you became so familiar with homosexual websites?

Chuck
Ok, I'll bite. And I admit you have me stumped. I know of no natural process that would give rise to consciousness other than accident, which is not an impossibility. This does not mean there is no answer, only that I don't know it.

RepAt
"Could you elaborate on the question please? I'm not entirely sure what you are asking as I did not say anything about conciousness."

RepAt, it's a thought experiment. Just go with it.


Basic Computer for Mellor
Hey Mud Helmet,

The godless liberal homo link is correct. It is operator error on your part.

When the page not found appears, simply click on the link right next to it, called :

Godless Liberal Homo. And guess what? Takes you right to the home page.

No need to thank me, glad I could help.

Try again Mud helmet.

Brain Identity and Cosmic Uncertainty
Cont.
But in accepting such an identity, one is forced to deal with both the certainty of death and with enormous cosmic uncertainties such as: 1. What might have caused our universe to possibly come into existence in a massive explosion or expansion about 14 billion years ago? 2. Are there other forms of life existing somewhere in our universe? 3. Do multiple universes exist? 4. Is it possible that one or more “supernatural powers” might exist that have capabilities that are orders of magnitude beyond what human brains are able to comprehend, and if so, did it (they) have something to do with the origin of our universe?
Those of us living in the 21st century, it seems to me, have the opportunity to understand and accept our true identities as particular human brains living within particular human bodies all of which were built by human DNA and modified by experience. But simultaneously, it seems we remain stuck with an enormous amount of cosmic uncertainty.

Brain Identity and Cosmic Uncertainty
In the 21st century we know that human DNA from an egg and a sperm when joined together in a single new cell contains all the information necessary to produce over a period of about 40 weeks trillions of cells organized into a new human brain and all the other organs and parts of a new human body. And once built, that particular new human brain and body are constantly subjected to an enormity of modifying experiences as they grow and develop and function over a lifetime.
Human brains have the capability of creating and using symbolic language as brain damage such as from strokes clearly indicates. “You” and “I” who are reading and understanding what is written here also have this capability of creating and use symbolic language because we are, in fact, human brains that reside in human bodies.
Terms such as “person”, “being”, “spirit”, and “soul” are leftover expressions of mythology invented by our ancestors who were unable to correctly identify themselves as particular human brains that reside in particular human bodies.


Mud Helmet Mellor Outre
Glad you could take a break from the mens side of the park restroom to be with us.

Tell me something Mello/SjDoc, were you the fella who wrote under the pen name Michael Swift?

This sounds exactly like you. I ran across it in 1987 when one of my cousins who was a homosexual showed it to me. He was also a godless liberal homo like yourself.

Here ya go, refresh your memory:

http://www.beyondtheshadesofgray.org/gayactivism/

If you have your old copy of the Gay Community News from February 15-21, of 1987 yu can read it yourself, or look up the link if you claim it does not work.

This might also explain your behavior:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1121283/Gend er-bending-chemicals-rivers-grow-potent.html

You really need to get past your crush on Fabius.

Ah! Brainless659
I was wondering where you were. But as Fab Cub't was also missing, I concluded you must have been on a tryst together.

I'd say "thanks for the links," but--owing to your usual incompetence--the first is not valid, and the second dull.

Mud Helmet Mellor
The self admitted homosexual atheist. As usual, parked on a thread demeaning believers and trolling for dates from other homosexual posters.

Here is a blog jus for you Mellor/SjDoc. it is called the Godless Liberal Homo.

http://godlessliberalhomo.blogspot.com/2008/06/expressing-a nger-at-politicians-who-are-html

Or, for a travel quest for you and the other atheist homosexuals here, how about the Carnival of the Godless? Here, you can sign up using this link;

http://ranaban.blogspot.com/2009/01/carnival-of-godless-109 .html

And I am still workng on a suitable candidate for your exorcism. But that is like finding someone to bet on the lions to win the Super Bowl next year.

Manuel, still a bigot.
According to you becuase I do not believe in your make believe fantasies I am a lecher, or oversexed pervert for the uninformed, and also a roach. But it is Atheism that is based on bigotry. Feel free to make up any facts you want but that doesn't make them true but lets get something very clear YOU ARE A BIGOT and you have proven it in your posts.

I did not say that science has proven god does not exist. Your simple mind invented that. What I said was some Atheists came to that conclusion through science. OR that scientific evidence that they believe to be fact gives them evidence to dispell your myths.

"This is the big contradiction. Why do unbelievers hate God if they believe he does not exist?"

Exactly, you make my point perfectly. Why would someone that does not believe in your god hate (or be a bigot) him. YOU irritate me immensely but I have no beef with your religion or your god. You point out exactly why your accusations are ridiculous.

Again you base Atheism off the actions of a few. Perhaps you would like to answer for Fred Phelps and the westboro baptist church.

You're right, I think the Universe has no purpose, and yet I am able to act just as morally as any christian I know. You are so sure about the immorality of Atheists can you now explain the immorality of christians? Apparantly your commandments don't work. Can you now explain just what the purpose for the universe is?

You can claim that Atheism is based of bigotry, but you can offer know evidence to that point. However all I need to do is quote some of your ramblings and it is very clear YOU ARE A BIGOT. Maybe you're not really a christian at all.





What fascinates me about this topic
Is how much of our thinking reveals our Aristotelian legacy, assuming that there is only one cause for one effect, or that cause and effect even had to happen in a particular sequence.

Not got laid lately, Manuel?
.

Or, you could read ...
.. Patrick's rant.

Worship god --> Obama
Hatemongers (with a bit of tax greed)
Hypocrites (attend services --> contrary)
Hypocrites again, ending in gibberish
And--amazing!--a sentence that both makes sense, and may even be true!

As you can see, Allen, this is very political indeed. (Or, we could just have Patrick committed.)

Lechers prove that Evolution is false
Lechers in this website are wasting their time mocking that God does not exist based on bigotry.

By this time you may be asking yourself, who are these lechers? Let me tell you who they are:

MellorSJ2, Don Juan, Koolmose, RepAt, gc, Jack, Vamnpire’s Reflection, steve, and other roaches.

For example, one lecher wrote:

“ Some atheists come to this conclusion because what science has shown them”

Really? I would like to know who they are and read how science “proved” that God does not exist.

“For anyone to show any real bigotry toward god they must acknowledge that the god exists”

This is the big contradiction. Why do unbelievers hate God if they believe he does not exist?

“Are some Atheists bigots?” Correction: all atheists, the rest of unbelievers are lechers.

“Absolutely, as are some Christians.” Good try, but let’s go back to my subject that atheism is based on bigotry and not science.

“You also touch on this myth that Atheists denounce the existence of god to somehow do away with morality.”

Oh yeah, just read the tirade of famous unbelievers like drunkard Hitchens, spoiled Sam Harris, and other senile evolutionists. Just read Nietsche, Sartre, Bertrand Russell, and others. It is because God is a moral, holly and perfect God that opposes, adultery, homosexuality, lying, fornication and other moral issues that unbelievers do like.

“Do you personally know any Atheists?” I can give you their phone numbers, address, and names. Since they do not believe in God, they feel not guilty or shame cheating on their wives, being bisexuals, lying, and etc. why should they? The universe has no purpose.

BTW, do not be offended. Why you guys should be offended? After all, life, for you guys, came from an ameba and the universe is just there with no purpose.

Worship Obama
The cool-aid drinkers have forsaken god to worship Obama. These hate mongers did not stop going to church they need the tax deductions. They attend services that talk about the philosophies that were and are contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ. They claim to be Christian, but they worship at the feet of the elitist Barack Obama, and all he is president of just the United States. All the gifts his stimulus plan gives will keep the worshiping continuing for a while now.

Or, you could read...
..gc's pithier, quicker off the mark, and, um, direct response.

Well done, gc.

Allen: The answer is No
The goal of a column of this nature is to get the xians in a frenzy.

Doesn't take long before the communists, atheists, gays, liberals in general and Obama in particular are blamed for every ill in the world. (And, of course, xians are credited with every good. The ten commandments, for example, will become the basis of all US law; all our founders will turn from Enlightenment men to out-and-out xians, Jefferson notwithstanding; xians are the fount of all morality; and on and on.)

Oh yes, this is very political indeed. Even by the unchallenging standards of evidence and logic of the typical religious debate site, this article couldn't get published.

godly nuts2
well said allen. the religious wack job facist right are an albatross tied around conservative's necks. they have destroyed the american conservative movement now polluted with their facism and sicko morality based on nothing more than fatuous poorly translated myths.

Was this column misposted?
It seems as though it ought to be on a religious debate site, not a political debate site.

godly nuts
it is wrong to be a pedophile because it is depriving another of their right to their own person.

one does not need religion for morality. that is a stupid cry from the deluded deists.

there are many more christian pedofiles and jerks in general than athiests. gimme a break. to suppose morality and christianity are connected is a sick pathetic joke only communism exceeds the evil of christians in death torture and abuse.

anyone one the speaks in tongues, believes statues cry, is waiting for a pseudo christ to return or talks to god and thinks someone is listening is certifiably nuts. crazy. not connected. to then be nuts and say you hold the key to morality just accents your napoleon suit. bastante de los idiotos de jesus. a pox on the evil and destruction you have left in your insane wake. religion destroys everything.

Chuck
Could you elaborate on the question please? I'm not entirely sure what you are asking as I did not say anything about conciousness.

What I was doing was comparing and contrasting a Theist point of view with that of an Atheist. Nothing more, nothing less. But if you reword or explain your question I am fairly sure I can offer a logical and reasoned response.

koolmuse
Of course! Try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjmjtOnDyYs

You should see how angry he gets when some xian disses him!

And there's an excellent book: Toads and Toadstools: The Natural History, Folklore, and Cultural Oddities of a Strange Association, abbreviated to the Book of Toadstools.

Of course, it requires some interpretation. For example, Toadstools 1:1 reads "Why should a fungus be named after a toad?" but _means_ "Why should the Great Elf live in Toadstool Heaven?" Such interpretation can only be had from recognized Elf Experts (such as myself), on payment of a small fee.

Payment can be made to that address in the Caymans.

RepAt
"The difference is when we apply "logic and reason the most likely and truly only possible solution" is that of natural processes."

What "natural process" brought consciousness into matter?

I eagerly await your logical and reasoned answer.

68431984
This piece by Phil Harris is a poorly constructed attempt to take a jab at atheism and there are many finely tuned arguments that can be put forth to challenge atheism -- this pabulum of old tripe is not one of them. In short, what Phil has missed that life by itself is meaningless and it is the individual, and him alone, that can constitute meaning to it -- and no one else.

Cutting through all the precursors to the notion of supernatural being, my question is how does a proof of existence of God make your definition of "a" God an accurate one? If there is "the" God, who is to say that it's defined in the boundaries proposed by the "monolithic" religions? That's the issue that I have problem with when people [of religion] attempt to define this unknowable entity in their own limited terms and legislate through those faulty assumptions.

Wishful thinking
"In a rather perverse twist, it is those who believe that life continues that are assured to know all there is to know, while those who reject life beyond death will simply evaporate, along with the composite chemicals that give the illusion of self, knowledge, and consciousness."

If you belive in eternal life, you will have it? And if you don't, you won't? That's ridiculous. Either humans live on in some form after their body dies, or they don't. You can't change that fact by belief.

This whole article seems to be based on the idea that your beliefs should match your desires. Even if the evidence doesn't support a creator, if you wish the universe had an all-powerful, loving creator, you should believe in one. Whatever you want to be true, believe that it is true.

This seems to be the underlying argument, though never articulated directly, of most creationists. They don't want to be the result of a long evolutionary process, so they choose not to believe it.

I wish I was a millionaire. I could choose to believe, right now, that I am a millionaire. That "faith" will not change my bank account today.

Erock33
Evolution does not tell you that what is right is whatever you want it to be. Evolution tells you that what is right is what helps to ensure the survival of the species.

Were the Nazis wrong in their ideology?

Nazi Germany was overwhelmingly Christian so you tell me.

Why is it wrong to be a pedophile?

Children do not produce more children, being a pedophile does not ensure the survival of a species. There are thousands of reason this is wrong but that's the evolutionary ezplanation.

Why can't I kill someone to better my situation?

Killing members of your species does not help the species as a whole, so in the case of Humans, and every other pack animal, killing others is not useful.


Joycey
"Faith in the truth comes from a being convinced after a search. It involves taking in the facts and using logic and reason to decipher what is the most likely and truly only possible solution."

Atheists agree with your comment about how to come up with a truth. The difference is when we apply "logic and reason the most likely and truly only possible solution" is that of natural processes.

"Believers believe in a miraculous universe.
Unbelievers believe in the impossible.
Why is it easier for an unbeliever to believe that no one did it?"

To us: Unbelievers believe in an amazing universe. Believers believe in the impossible. Why is it easier for a believer to believe that someone did it?

You see it's basically just a minor difference in opinion.

Idea of Right and Wrong
Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

Were the Nazis wrong in their ideology?
Why is it wrong to be a pedophile?
Why can't I kill someone to better my situation?

Why do laws made by man make these acts "wrong" when evolution tells me "right" is whatever I want it to be?

I know scientists
And they tell me they believe in God because the more they learn about the universe, the more they wonder at how it could possibly keep working. If we only examine the possibility of the life of any organism, explain the sub-microscopic structures in a cell that control every aspect of that cell's existence and the animal that houses the cell. What a pitiful life that ends with death. Kind of like childless homosexual couples.

Chosen
There is a component of faith that cannot be left out. "I chose you."

2Thes.2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1)chosen from the beginning
2)faith in the truth (What has actually occurred this is not defined as my truth of your truth but the Truth)
3)sanctification by the Spirit ( a refining process)

Faith in the truth comes from a being convinced after a search. It involves taking in the facts and using logic and reason to decipher what is the most likely and truly only possible solution.

Believers believe in a miraculous universe.
Unbelievers believe in the impossible.
Why is it easier for an unbeliever to believe that no one did it?

Manuel, Atheism and bigotry
Atheism is one and only one thing, a disbelief in god. Some atheists come to this conclusion because what science has shown them, others because of what they consider to be impossibilities in the bible.

For anyone to show any real bigotry toward god they must acknowledge that the god exists. How can you dislike what is not there? It’s like hating the tooth fairy.

Bigotry is an individual trait. Are some Atheists bigots? Absolutely, as are some Christians. If you require evidence just scroll down and read some of the posts by USPAtriot56 and his cheerleader Standshisground. In either case, the Atheists or the Christians, the bigotry is a personal shortcoming that has no reflection of their individual faith or lack there of.

You also touch on this myth that Atheists denounce the existence of god to somehow do away with morality. Do you personally know any Atheists? If so, are they particularly immoral? Many love to point out some of the more infamous Atheists in the world as evidence to this need for immorality. These individuals are the exception not the rule. There are individuals that lack morals in every single religion ever known, but they are almost always the exception to the rule. Using these outspoken morality haters to describe the majority of Atheists is no different than using Fred Phelps to describe all Christians.

Atheism is not about GOD.
Atheism is about the pursuit of personal pleasure. God has nothing to do with the subject except to make sure that His is not felt so that pleasure may be pursued without the consequence of guilt.

The one thing they cannot admit is that atheism itself is a religious expression that is used in an attempt to fill the God shaped void in every human heart.

Jack....Delusion
Isn't your statement equally true for the Atheist?

You believe thing with blind faith, just as the religious person does...

You believe there is no God...But you can't prove it...

You believe in Evolution...But you Can't prove it ...Evolution is only a theory that ..Darwin himself renounced the theory in his later years....

You don't believe there is a life after death...but you can't prove it.

The 10 commandments are the Basis of our Society...our morals and laws are on founded on it...

What specifically has Atheism contributed to the good of man kind?

Kool Mouse
The brave part of being an Atheist...will be facing what will happen to you IF THERE IS LIVE AFTER DEATH...


G.K. Chesterton said,
"It's the height of arrogance to say that one knows enough about the unknown to know that it is unknowable."

No Delusion
This article is one huge argument from personal incredulity. Mr. Harris just doesn't believe that everything could have come into existence like this so there just HAD to be some divine force behind it. He doesn't like the idea that human beings are complex systems of inter-related chemical and biological forces. And because humankind hasn't discovered everything about everything there has to be a god.

This is the same argument believers have always made and it is still every bit as invalid as it's ever been. Just because people don't like the idea that there's nothing divine behind life doesn't mean it's true. As for life after death there's something we can never know. And anybody who claims they do is not only wrong, they're arrogant. Mr. Harris is more delusional than the atheists he doesn't like and needs to understand the context to these issues and how not knowing something doesn't warrant creating irrational sky gods.

koolmuse asks a silly question :)
"Is the Giant Elf interested in donations?"

The Great Elf is ALWAYS interested in donations. Aren't all the religions (except the state religions, such as North Korea, which simply take the money anyway)?

Please send all $$$ to:

Save the Atheists!
The Great Elf Foundation
PO Box 666
Great Cayman

All deductions are tax deductible! And your soul will be saved too!

PS Don't forget to tell your children take their food out of the can and put it on a plate. "It'll taste better that way." -- Repo Man

PS for Mac
Indeed, you may in for a surprise....

But not as much of a surprise as the muslim "martyr" when he meets my maiden great-aunt Dora and her 71 spinster friends...

Mac
You might go back and read Vampire's reflection post 124.

This post won--as well it might!--today's award for Most Novel Reason for Atheism.

Excellent though his post was--and most deservingof the award--he did restrict himself to _public_ xians.

Think carefully: Would you _really_ like to spend eternity with some of the xians on this thread? I mean, StandsHisGround is good for a chuckle, once in a while? But _eternity_?!?! Would you really want to be on the same cloud as USPatriot56? Manual might be amusing for a while, but since he refuses to provide any evidence, any conversation would quickly tire.

No. Flay me alive. A much better eternity.

Try again, Manuel
"This poor piece of flesh thinks that he has demonstrated that God does not exist by attacking and mocking the Christian faith. "

I do? Fascinating! I'll be sure to send myself a memo.

In fact, by substituting a few words in Oakley's quotations, I have merely demonstrated that ridiculous is ridiculous--and that claiming it as religion does not make it any less ridiculous.

"Again, it is bigotry, not science, the foundation of atheism. "

Yes, "again." And again and again. But still not a shred of evidence. I wonder why...

A claim does not make it true, Manuel
Go on, provide one citation or example.

Drop-out proves that atheism is bigotry
MellorSJ2 writes:

“BTW, if you want to save your soul, give the Great Elf a try. Just don't eat any mushrooms, lest you sauteed for eternity in the Great Wok!”

This poor piece of flesh thinks that he has demonstrated that God does not exist by attacking and mocking the Christian faith.

Even the drunkard Hitchens recognizes the historical aspect of Christianity and its uniqueness among other religions. This is the reason why he and other unbelievers attack Christianity, because Christianity teaches that God is perfect and demands holiness from each one of us.

Again, it is bigotry, not science, the foundation of atheism.




Mellor SJ2:
Humor is a good thing. Hope you retain it on your death bed. I on the other hand look at it this way:

If I am wrong and you are right, we both end up in the same place. In the meantime I have done my best to follow Christ's teachings, sure can't hurt. Now following Allah's
(as fundamentalists do), is a whole other ballgame.
If I am right however(and I am confident that I am), eternity will be a supreme experience.
God Bless.

Atheism is based on bigotry, not science
The problem with atheism is that it uses science to justify its rejection of God. When we read the books of famous and popular unbelievers, we discover that their rejection is based basically not in science but in the moral character of God.

They use science to claim that God does not exist; but using science to deny God’s existence is not the same to claim that science proved that God does not exist. Both statements are different. The unbelievers like Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins and others fanatic unbelievers DO NOT WANT to believe that there is a God who is perfect and does not approve immorality.

The unbelievers understand that as long as people believe in a God that is stern and holy, immorality always will be morally wrong. The only solution is to declare that there is not God, and if there is, they do not want to recognize Him as God.

At this point, the discussion of God takes a philosophical form of argumentation. However, strange as it is, the unbelievers decided to attack Christians for what they believe. And by using sarcasm and fallacies they think that they can “demonstrate” that the belief in a God is nonsense. The question is where is the scientific evidence?

For example the crybaby of the unbelievers, Sam Harris, published their books addressed to Christians; however, a quick reading of his claims reveal that he is ignorant of the Christian faith, uses bad reasoning, and it is not based on science but in bigotry!

Atheism is not based on science but in bigotry. Science is ineffective to demonstrate the existence of God; it simply can’t. It would be really stupid to claim that because science cannot prove the existence of God, then God does not exist. This is bad reasoning.

It is bigotry and rejection of moral absolutes that drive unbelievers to reject the belief that there is a God. Science had nothing to do with it.

Evidence, Mac
I won't be holding my breath.

BTW, if yiou want to save your soul, give the Great Elf a try. Just don't eat any mushrooms, lest you sauteed for eternity in the Great Wok!

Vampire's Reflection: The God Question.
No one person is more or less than another. We are all equal