Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Friday, August 15, 2008
Pat Buchanan :: Townhall.com Columnist
Blowback From Bear-Baiting
by Pat Buchanan
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost -- in Tbilisi.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Pat Buchanan is a founding editor of The American Conservative magazine, and the author of many books including State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America .
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Pat Buchanan's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
neo cons try to start a war
What I don't get
why not to engage Russia with aid, smart investments and humanitarian aid! We never did that at all, but we spend trillions in China, which is 100% dictatorship.
After all, I think that Russia is more important to the security of USA than China, keeping in mind that Russia has tens : TENS OF THOUSANDS OF NUCLEAR WAR HEADS!!! We are about to either kid ourselves or kill ourselves by supporting some idiots from former Soviet Union circle, especially when those little 'Fidel Castro's' creating huge hardship for American people.

why the war and why it has to be now?
P.S. M. We are only as good as people whom we have elected to lead us!
Why our country is being hijacked by a bunch of neo con goons, who’re by themselves are a bunch of dysfunctional cold war drug induced teens which hold important position in USA government?
Why they are preparing us for a new nuclear war with Russia?
What’s going on? And btw will 2012 be the last year of the human race, as that was predicted?

a Putin loyalist?
Buchanan sounds like a true loyalist for Putin - anti-Semitic, bash America and defending Putin even though Putin has been launching intemittent attacks for some time now. Does Buchanan really think that Putin got all his military tanks and armor there over night. It took months of planning and getting all that gear over the Caucasus Mountains. This was all planned and set into motion months before the Olymics began.

McCain should keep reading Pat's article
John McCain should continue reading Buchanan's article instead of being brainwashed by the Neocons and Charles Krauthammer...and their proposed Neocracies in the caucasus region.


Pat Buchanan writes:

"We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus."


John McCain writes:

"Georgia stands at a strategic crossroads in the Caucasus. The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which brings oil from the Caspian to points west, traverses Georgia. And if that pipeline were destroyed or controlled by Russia, European energy supplies would be even more vulnerable to Russian influence."


LARRY McDONALD ON CROSSFIRE MAY 1983
Subject: McCAIN, OBAMA AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER !
What follows in this video and the one that will be posted shortly hereafter comes from a May 1983 Broadcast of Crossfire in which Congressman Larry McDonald takes on Pat Buchanan and Tom Braden.

They wrangle over the John Birch Society, the CFR, the CIA and the NWO. Congressman McDonald had just been named as Chairman of the staunchly conservative John Birch Society.

It is interesting to note that three months after laying out the strong links between the CFR, the UN and the CIA, as well as Soviet Russia in this broadcast, Congressman McDonald was killed in the Russian shootdown of Korean Airlines flight 007 over international waters.

What is more interesting to note is that now, 25 years later, we can plainly see that he was completely justified in calling what he saw a conspiracy, and that the conspiracy has achieved most of its aims without opposition from the American people.

My sole comment beyond this is that people get the government they deserve. So, America, what kind of government DO we deserve? Who will you vote for into offices this year and what will they bring to us?

Watch this video and the one I will post shortly hereafter and judge for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlkD5z740w0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma6Cnqqv39M

excellent Pat
Talk about disproportionate responses :
Israel wants us to bomb Iran because the president of Iran stated the truth : the holocaust is a myth ! Former French President Chirac staed: even if Iran has a couple of nuclear devices, it will not give that much of an advantage ! They have a nuclear Pakistan and India as neighbors . If Israel has 200 nuclear devices, what are they afraid of ? It is becoming obvious: they are afraid of any head of state who brings to light the hoax of the twentieth century: the vulgar lie that there were gas chambers that asphyxiated to death thousands at a time and in total millions of Jews using an insecticide ! What a stupid story ! How humiliating for anyone to actually believe in such a fantasy .


Good read
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/080815_bush.htm

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury during President Reagan’s first term.

paulcraigroberts@yahoo.com

Seattle Observer

RE: must see tv

LOLOLOLOL!

NATO NONSENSE

I am not intersted in defending Europe. Europe is not even interested in defending Europe.

Europe is not America, and so the founding fathers didn't put a power in the Constitution to defend the liberties of foreigners. If you want that power: change the Constitution.

This notion that America is responsible for the liberties of foreigners is an invention, a fiction. It is a DEMOCRAT PARTY POLICY, from Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and the Truman Doctrine. It is NOT republican party policy.

Europe has a larger GDP than the USA--let them buy and install their own defenses.

I don't CARE to defend Muslims in Europe either.

The biggest threat to American security is the hispanic invasion to our shores, therefore the biggest threat to America is Bush, McCain, and Obama.

Bush wants you distracted from this invasion.

You are easily distracted from that which is of greatest danger to you.

The stupid party: GOP

defender of freedom
must see tv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBh9D2WIGsE


Paolo writes:
"What Am I Missing Here?"
Juschill, what you are missing is that California has every right to secede from the union, as does every one of the fifty states.

Just as the individual states ACCEDED to the union, so they have the right to SECEDE. Several states, at the time of the signing, specifically reserved this right to secede.

The right to secede from the Union is a powerful counterweight to central government tyranny. I think California secession is a marvelous idea. As an independent nation, it would have the world's eighth biggest GNP. They would do much better if they were independent of their tyrant masters in Washington.

No CA does not have the right to secede. That right was abrogated by military force from 1861-1865, and then the SCOTUS ruled there was no such right in 1866.

More food for thought
ohn Galt 21st Century writes: 3:52 AM EST


Subject: Candlelight, well said
And well reasoned. 1823 was sailing ships and horseback taking weeks and months to spread the news of any event.

Hmm, food for thought...
====

ts:
George Washington wrote:
"much reflection, of no inconsiderable observation, and which appear to me all important to the permanence of your felicity as a People."

His Foreign Policy is the same with submarines or missiles.



Problem is, it would take 10-15 minutes to read and that is way too much to ask in this day from so many.


Daniel Webster, on the centennial of Washington's birth in 1832, said that the Address was

"full of truths important at all times",

and he called for

"a renewed and wide diffusion of the admirable paper, and an earnest invitation to every man in the country to re-peruse and consider it."

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. ...

It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
===

We need to follow G. Washington's foreign policy.
NOT the CFR's, which is a MERCHANTS FOREIGN POLICY


Louiselouise
He did. Have you heard of Chechnya?

While I'm at it let me ask you this. Have you ever heard of "The American Committee for Peace in the Caucasus"?
http://www.peaceinthecaucasus.org/

They are modest and have removed the membership list. This is bad, for there were a number of notable neocon on the board, William Kristol being one of them. Bear in mind that it was Chechens that murdered all those Russian children in Beslan. They also blew up two airliners in mid flight over Russia. That place is in north Ossetia. Why are neocons supporting genuine terrorists?

It Would Be Nice
if Putin would take care of some of the Muslims in that region. Putin doesn't have the ACLU interfering--he could do a good job.

Buck
"While we may disagree with Buchanan,regarding Georgia,you gotta admire him for service to Three Republican Presidents and his ability to stir Passionate Debates and Discussions.

We Love Ya Buchanan. Run in 2012 ! It makes Politics more interesting and diverse."

We agree on something here. Well stated and quite correct.

"What Am I Missing Here?"
Juschill, what you are missing is that California has every right to secede from the union, as does every one of the fifty states.

Just as the individual states ACCEDED to the union, so they have the right to SECEDE. Several states, at the time of the signing, specifically reserved this right to secede.

The right to secede from the Union is a powerful counterweight to central government tyranny. I think California secession is a marvelous idea. As an independent nation, it would have the world's eighth biggest GNP. They would do much better if they were independent of their tyrant masters in Washington.

Candlelight, well said
And well reasoned. 1823 was sailing ships and horseback taking weeks and months to spread the news of any event.

Hmm, food for thought...

Reply to Eric
Your reply sounds reasonable on the surface and the reality of spheres of influence are obviously relevant. But I think a lot of those "lines in the sand" may be out of date and need some changes.

The Monroe Doctrine you mentioned was created in 1823. It would seem that purely geographical issues should take a back seat to new facts, such as the world's dependence on access to the Persian Gulf, through which 20 - 40% of the world's oil is shipped. What if Iran, formerly part of the Persian empire, decided to put the Persian Gulf within its sphere of influence after we leave? What if it did so with the military support of Russia, which it already has?

And how can we move lines in the sand closer to home in an age of space-based technology and weapons? Or ICBM's and submarine launched missiles (which can legally travel 12 miles from most shorelines?)

Where do we draw the line against cyberattacks, like the one that preceeded the invasion of Georgia, and practically shut down the government? Where do we draw the line if the North Pole becomes a major source of oil with countries creating military bases there?

I think the Monroe Doctrine was right for its time and is still important. But the public needs to realize the planet is much smaller than it seems. And in my opinion, if America starts seeing itself as just another country, instead of a world philosophy, which it has always been, then the game is over, and decay will set in.






killing servicemen
Actually the Russian military was uncharacteristically restrained . Somehow no one talks about 10 Russian servicemen deliberately killed by the Georgians in the first few hours. If that happened to the US military Tbilisi would be pulverized, and the Pentagon would be issuing statements like "We regret the loss of civilians but.."

Texas
"I return to my analogy. If California (now with a majority of former Mexican nationals) declared itself free of the U.S. because it is ethnically more closely connected to Mexico, should the U.S. just say, "sure, why not?"

What am I missing here?"

Didn't Texas have a majority of American nationals and we came to it's rescue? I am missing something here?

tahssard - facist?

You must be living in the Bizarro World where invading a country halfway around the world woule be an example of small government at work and miding you're own business is considered facist.

"If you read all his posts" which you clearly have not, you would realize he's a Christian who puts Jesus first and the family second and the state way down the line.

"Unlike Patrick Buchanan, Vladimir Putin, and the late Saddam Hussein the rest of us have thankfully moved on since then."

Somehow I suspect that you actually worship at the altar of the State and this is more Bizarro-logic. Was the U.S. invasion of Iraq an act of facism? Do the state's have a right to secede?

Here,Here
I want to second John Galt. Buchanan for President in 2012!!!!

Where is Pat's "line in the sand"?
Candlelight:

I agree with you that a line has to be drawn in the proverbial sand. That is what the Monroe Doctrine is all about. But it's not especially intelligent, or conservative for that matter, to draw the line right in Russia's back or front yard. The old concept of sphere-of-influence applies here. Eastern Europe is in Russia's sphere-of-influence just as North and South America is in ours. When we meddle politically and militarily with the countries adjacent to Russia, especially former Soviet republics, we cross a line equivalent to the one that Communist Russia crossed when it tried to subvert several of the countries in Central America during the 80's. And everyone remembers that America did not take that threat lying down. Neither will a proud people such as the Russians. And it's not a matter of liking or defending Russia's heavy-handed approach to this crisis. Russia has always been a bully and deserves no defense in the way it is reacting to Georgia's suppression of its ethnic Russian majorities in these 2 potentially breakaway provinces. But I have to agree with Pat Buchanan that it is not in our national interest to provoke Russia in its own back yard. Let's draw our lines in the sand closer to home.

Pat, Run again in 2012
The environment should be ripe for your wisdom about then.

Not Our Fight
NATO should become "EURO".

We don't have a heavy infantry division, much less an armor division, to send to the defense of ANY of these new "NATO" countries. Where would it come from? How, and how fast, would it get there?

Our NATO "war plans" always focused on reinforcing West Germany if the Soviets tried their chances there. We rehearsed getting "something" there in 48 hours, and "more" within a week.

Tell me that Pelosi would allow a vote on starting "Desert Shield" in Poland or the Ukraine. Tell me this administration would win it. I'll tell you you are WRONG.

Time for the EU to start taking care of itself. Which they won't, because they are economic hostages to Russian oil and gas supplies.

Pat speaks sense, here. 5 stars.

Talent Scout,
I see no difference between Hitlerite Scum, and Stalinist Scum.

What I despise more than this, however, is that American school children and university students do not know that Stalin is every bit as guilty as Hitler for the Second World War.

It was the secret protocol of the Stalin-Hitler pact that made the war possible. Three weeks after Germany invaded Poland from the West and had neutralized the Polish Army, the hyena Stalin invaded from the East. The two divided Poland between them. Hitler could no more have invaded Poland without Stalin’s permission than Stalin without Hitler’s permission.

In no way do I mean to imply that you don't know all of this already. However, less than 1% of all Americans know this.

As imperfect as he may have been, and this applies to all of us, Churchill was a great man who saved western civilization. Pat does not get this very simple fact.

Louiselouise
This has been explained more than you can shake a stick at, along with why his wife, Shelly couldn't have children.

What I want to know why your heroes didn't serve?

Let's start with Cheney.

A thousand cheers
A thousand cheers for Pat Buchanan, who has the courage to point out the hypocrisy of the West. As Pat says, there was a golden opportunity in the early 90's to establish open, friendly relations with Russia. Our idiot leaders--both Democrat and Republican--squandered that opportunity.

The Georgia/South Ossetia/Abkhazia situation is obviously a local affair. It is absolutely none of our business.

America does not own the world. Our policy should be "open and friendly relations with all nations," to paraphrase Washington. The military, especially, should be reserved for use only in defending America--not South Ossetia or South Korea or the approximate 130 nations in which we station troops.

All US troops should be brought home.

Pat Buchanan is a true, limited-government, humble-foreign-policy conservative. It is a shame that the modern conservative movement now advocates the biggest, most wasteful, most expensive government program ever invented: foreign wars.

WAY Down South
Ok
Understand where you are coming from now, I was thinking about this article is all.

I disagree with Patrick on some of his views concerning Israel as I support Israel 100 percent.

But I also believe the attacks on him over any criticism he makes about Israel is way past anything he has ever said about Israel.

I have noticed if anyone criticizes Israel, they get accused of anti semitism.
Course it is true with so many but not Pat in my view.


You say:
In his May 27 article “How the West Lost The World,” he promoted his book,

"Churchill, Hitler and 'The Unnecessary War”

If a person loves Nazi Germany and Hates Winston Churchill, they will love this book.
===
I read the article, not the book.
Pat made some very good points in his article.
We did defeat the Nazi's by teaming up with communists who were worse than Hitler for murdering civilians.
We have no problems in America with nazi's, but we have millions of communists it seems.
So does Europe

This is what I got from his article, may be wrong in what his intent was, but its how I read it.


Where is Pat's "line in the sand"?
That will soon become the next question.

This morning, a top Russian general said that Poland's agreement to accept U.S. missiles in its country exposes Poland to attack by Russia's nuclear weapons. "Poland, by deploying [the system] is exposing itself to a strike - 100 percent." In other words - a "first strike."

It also directly implies their right to use nuclear weapons, as a first strike, "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them ..." - such as the U.S. or Europe. The Russian general, Nogovitsyn, reiterated that placing a "missile defense" system in Poland or the Czech Republic "would bring about an unspecified military response." They are apparently not too interested in any discussions.

My understanding of Buchanan's attitude, he would have the U.S. draw a line in the sand on the beaches of Coney Island and Santa Monica. Cross that line, and he will get very upset.

Europe depends on Russia for its energy. Even more today with their newly-acquired control over the Caspian pipelines. Georgia is back in the Soviet orbit and gravitational forces are pulling other formerly independent and free-spirited satellites back into that same sphere.

If the U.S. didn't depend on imports for everything besides hamburgers, our options would be simpler. But we need to know what the options are in today's interconnected world.

Where should we draw the next "line in the sand?"

Talent Scout,
When I write to Pat Buchanan,

"You are a lousy historian Mr. Buchanan."

I am referring to far more than just this article.

In his May 27 article “How the West Lost The World,” he promoted his book,

"Churchill, Hitler and 'The Unnecessary War”

If a person loves Nazi Germany and Hates Winston Churchill, they will love this book.

Well said TalentScout
>Seems to me, the President is unaware of the danger in his policies that are pushing the Russians into a defensive and offensive stand.

This is my perception as well. Cheney et. al think they are geniuses with their grasp of realpolitik, but any short-term advantage of their actions is overridden by the long-term consequences which they always seem to discount. Years of provocation of Russia led to Russia's aggressive stance in Georgia.

KGB Putin
A faction of the former USSR has resented when we "helped" them break apart by screwing around with their economy by multiple means. They basically couldn't afford to keep up with our military capability. Putin would like nothing more than re-assemble the USSR which would be evern more powerful now because they are willing to use their natural resources to get rich and WE AREN'T. Now, unfortunately, we are in a similar situation with our energy non-action and the state of our economy they were in. We became too dependent on foreign oil, but it doesn't stop there. We are too dependent on foreign manufacturing also. Putin KNOWS we are incapable of doing jack about this Georgia situation short of nuclear strikes. Our fighting force is fatigued, not to mention the shape of the equipment. Our global influence is drastically diminished now. Just another pitch for one term presidents. But alas, he can't shoulder the full blame. Everytime you buy an import anything, you build global demand because those workers involved with producing that item now have more money to spend and they're happy to do so. We're so screwed future wise.

Patsy Never Was In Danger
of being drafted. Or, if he had been drafted into the military, he would not have served. Tell us why, Pats.

Let's just do nothing, and lie about it.
Who needs another war? Even one that will never happen, cuz we're afraid of another WWI and Vietnam and, uh, all those other pointless wars that we keep on loosing the peace of. No more war! -- especially about something as obscure and unimportant as breakaway provinces in breakaway former-soviets. It's like a soap opera, all these names and characters and all this history and plots and story lines and suchlike. Evil twins and returns from the dead. How gnostic. How Manichean.

So Krauthammer proposed the following: 1) suspend the NATO-Russian Council that gives Russia a seat at the NATO table; 2) "bar Russian entry to the World Trade Organization" -- clear enough: a little neighborhood watch thing, like not renting out your garage-apartment to crack dealers; 3) dissolve the G-8 by simply withdrawing from it and reconstituting the G-7 -- Russia can be its own G-1; 4) plan to boycott the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, where ever that is; and 5) declare that any removal of the pro-Western Saakashvili government will "lead to recognition of a government-in-exile. This would instantly be understood as providing us the legal basis for supplying and supporting a Georgian resistance..."

All good ideas that will have an effect. Oops, pardon my sloppy diction. That WOULD have an effect, if they were to happen, which they won't, cuz no one really cares. Not enough to sacrifice all that goodwill that doing nothing wins from Russia. I mean, they have oil, and we mustn't trouble the waters by spilling oil on it, or some such mixed and very clever if somewhat sloppy metaphor that I'll work out and insert here later, sometime after you've read this. It's just that nothing but talk and ineffective symbolism will be employed. You know, diplomacy, of the sort that Obama is always hinting at and urging so eloquently.

Jack
Your point is very well taken, but I still don't approve of Russia's actions this past week. The bear is large enough, wealthy enough, powerful enough and holds enough cards that it's behavior this past week just looks paranoid and aggressive, not protective.

I read you perfectly Waydownsouth
You said:
"You are a lousy historian Mr. Buchanan."

And Patrick is exactly right in the points he makes.
This is an article, not an encyclopedia of every piece of information or thoughts and actions concerning Russia and Georgia.


Pancho and Talent Scout
Pancho, Ossetia is still a part of Georgia. It is not a sovereign nation. How many members of the international community have recognized Ossetia and have exchanged ambassadors?

As for Kurdistan, of course I accept that it is part of Iraq’s sovereign territory. The United States has assiduously stated that it shall remain so. At no time did the U.S. ever recognize a sovereign Kurdish state. The U.S. has no desire to either destroy Iraq’s territorial integrity or to Flip-Off the Turks.

As for the no fly zone, coalition forces conquered Saddam’s Iraq and issued the cease fire terms. Saddam’s representatives accepted them. As long as he could get away with it, Saddam was always welcome to either ignore or repudiate the terms. He did so on many occasions.




Talent Scout, I never argued that Georgia’s actions were justified. I never implied in any way at all that their move against Ossetia was a good decision. In fact, I wrote,

“I will not argue whether or not Georgia was justified in its move on separatist Ossetia.”

I only stated that Russian troops had invaded Georgian territory. And they did do so.

You wasted a lot of key strokes trying to repudiate something I never stated.

Learn to read more carefully.

Thank you Pat !
Thanks for telling it exactly like it is! Thank God, McCain was not making any decisions on this one. He came out drooling like and old man dog. He has spent months encouraging Georgia to stage a stunt like this. But the American people are not about to be fooled twice..we learned something from Iraq..Once again, we can not trust McCain to protect our conservative values! Teddy Roosevelt would come out of his grave at the comments "we are all Georgian"--no we are not. I am an American and citizen of the United States of America.

Iamfree

When two folks are involved in a conflict, one of the best techniques for getting them to resolve it is to have one person try to explain his opponent's point of view.

I was trying to get you to consider how you would react if you were in Putin's place. I submit you would do exactly what he is doing: you woudl be a fool not to do so. Putin's reaction is exactly the reaction which so many conservatives in the US advocate when the US is in conflict. We constantly hear how important it is to stand up against aggression. We hear how dangerous it is to let our opponents gradually sneak into a position of power. A few months ago all we heard about was the danger of appeasement.

So Putin is standing up to aggression, trying to prevent the West from sneaking into a position of power, and avoiding appeasement. When WE do it, we are upright, brave, and doing God's work. When anybody does it against us, they are the devil incarnate.

That's a position based on ignorance.

Sorry for error on "oil" reference
Had been reading so many commentaries that ignored the oil issue, I forgot that Pat brought it up at the end of his. My mistake.

Caroline Glick, slick Glick
She does not mention the agreement Georgia broke.

"Frankly speaking, it is our fault. We shouldn't have entered South Ossetia in the first place."
President Eduard Shevardnadze, who signed the agreement with his then Russian counterpart Boris Yeltsin
June 22, 1992

http://rfe.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/2/4F5D153D-4136-4 3DC-8559-68570797C994.html

Been saying the same thing
for years Pat...big miscalculation of foreign diplomacy....

"But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members."


Two opposites can't both be right
Pat wrote: "After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours." ... with special emphasis on "what he claims is his own country" and "back into Georgia..." That's one clear and serious allegation and it's either right or wrong. He says that Georgia, in effect, had attacked another sovereign country, and that country, in this case, Russia, acted in self defense.

But Caroline Glick, in today's Jerusalem Post, turns Buchanan's argument on its head:

"While South Ossetia and Abkhazia are separatist provinces, their sovereignty is not in dispute. They are part of Georgia. Georgia acted legally when it tried to protect its territory from separatist violence last Friday. Russia acted illegally when it invaded. Yet aside from the Georgian government itself, no one has noticed this basic distinction. "

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218710365631&pa gename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Obviously, Glick's argument would do little to support Pat's obsessive desire to find a neocon hiding behind every rock and turn every international crisis into an Israel-bashing opportunity.

If Georgia's army had threatened Russia, or had kidnapped Russian soldiers inside Russia, or had fired 5,000 missiles into Russia after it tried to save its soldiers, the story would support Buchanan.

Besides that, the simple fact that Buchanan never used the word "oil" or "pipeline", which we all know was the real motive behind Russia's pretext of self defense, indicates blatant dishonesty and deception.

Jack
Thank you for clarifying. But here's the thing...Russian paranoia should not excuse poor behavior on it's part. No matter how this is sliced, Russia has infringed on sovereign territory (notwithstanding the claims of dissidents in S.O. to the contrary), sticking it's nose in where it does not belong. Georgia poses no threat to Russia (not so long as the bear is the largest nation in the world and far richer in oil than Georgia). It would be like Mexico attacking the U.S. if California decided to leave the union and the U.S. moved to stop it.

All of that aside, however, I'm still unconvinced that the U.S. should to anything more in this situation. Georgia is an ally, so we should certainly do all we can within international diplomacy frameworks to protect her, but I don't want to see us extend any further military aid to that part of the world, particularly while we have Iran to deal with more urgently.

Last time Pancho.
From Wikipedia:
"Georgia has one of the world’s richest and oldest histories, stretching back to the prehistoric times. The rise of the early Georgian states of Colchis and Iberia in c.1000 BC formed the unique Georgian civilization which achieved its renaissance [1] [2][3] and golden age in the twelfth through thirteenth centuries. The history of Georgia has been marked by a series of invasions and subjugation by foreign empires (including Rome, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and the Russian Empire). However, throughout the long history of turmoil, the Georgian nation has endured and preserved its national identity."

Georgia existed long before there was a such thing as a Soviet Union. If you don't like that, here is another website that gives a brief synopsis of Georgia's history:

"http://ggdavid.tripod.com/georgia/history.htm"

So, bottom line, Georgia was independent of Russia prior to its annexation into the Soviet Union. Period.

Iamfree
The nations in which we currently have the greatest military and political interest form a semi-circle around much of the old Soviet union. The Russians have stated they believe we seek to encircle them with avowedly hostile nations. Adn we seek to arm those nations.

If you look at the map, the American efforts in the middle east, the Georgia/Poland situation(which are quite closely related), and the drive to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, it's not hard to see that they have a point.

If you were Putin, you'd behave exactly as Putin has behaved. You'd be an idiot not to. I know it's hard to imagine, but try to think of Mexico and Canada joinng the old Warsaw pact. Or imagine Mexico installing "defensive" missiles supplied by the Russians. Would we consider that an act of aggression?








Escept
>Stalin and Co. murdered 10 millions of their own. You can NEVER trust Russkies.<

Stalin was a Georgian, not a Russian.

You are a lousy historian
Yourself WAY down south.

Pat is not supporting Russia, nor am I.
No more than if the subject was about hiking in the wilds of Alaska and warning about provoking bears is for the bear.

Georgia is the one who is responsible for the present situation.
They broke their own agreement with both Russia and South Ossetia.


quote:
"Frankly speaking, it is our fault. We shouldn't have entered South Ossetia in the first place."

Former President Eduard Shevardnadze

Tbilisi has no right to unilaterally amend the 1992 peace agreement. Georgia, in turn, says it has the right to do so.

1992 South Ossetia Agreement
The Sochi agreement on 22 June 1992.

http://rfe.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/2/4F5D153D-4136-4 3DC-8559-68570797C994.html

Fact is, no matter what the past history was or is, Georgia made this agreement with Russia and South Ossetia and are the ones who have broken the agreement.

Russia has responded to the Georgian assault with its own Military, just exactly like The present President of Georgia knew they would.

He wanted this war with Russia and it looks like the President does too.

Sovereign territory
>Just because Moscow issued passports to Ossetia’s citizens, this doesn’t make Ossetia part of Russia.

Russia started “this fight” with Georgia by invading its sovereign territory.<

Question. Did you consider Kurdistan part of Iraq's sovereign territory during he 90s when Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq?
If so, wasn't the no-fly zone which protected Iraq a violation of Iraq's sovereignty? Wasn't the Kurds setting up their own independent government a violation of Iraq's sovereignty?

The case for South Ossetia is even more assertive, since they were an autonomous region before Georgia decided they should be part of the new Republic of Georgia. South Ossetia, as an autonomous oblast has their own sovereignty, which Georgia violated. The bes arguement you make is that it was disputed territory, not a sovereign part of Georgia.

I agree with much
of what you write but this article must be the most stupid you ever did. Don't compare Russia and USA. I've lived under communist rule and you have no idea what you are talking about. Russia is going back to the way they used to be.
Russians are worse than Germans. Stalin and Co. murdered 10 millions of their own. You can NEVER trust Russkies. They split my country in 1939 under false pretenses after their own provocations (just like Germans). From what I heard Russia may have had something to do with creating the problem by provoking Georgia to attack the wayward provinces. Shame on you Pat and the uninformed idiots here.

Sugary Sweet...
Okay, I'll bite (since I'm shockingly ignorant)...what on earth does Israel have to do with this mess?

It doesn't matter anyway...
We are in no position to start another war front. Instead of rubbling Iraq and assert ourselves as truly a world power not to be messed with, we now have a fatigued fighting force using weathered (for lack of a better term) equipment. You would think we learned something about wars by now, but apparently we haven't. Not only are we dependent on many other countries for energy, we are dependent for goods including *gasp* food. We have painted ourselves into a corner and it will take some brave souls in congress to turn the tide. The problem is getting them to run and get them elected.

Besides, Russia could argue we did the same by invading Iraq.

Emerson
"There is properly no history; only biography."

Putin vs Saakashvili: the problem in a nutshell.

“No change of circumstances can repair a defect of character.”

Putin, bully but no fool, is a force we won't be taken in by again, thus we understand & can deal with him.
Saakashvili, both bully & fool, is not the dog we want to back in this fight.

Revisionist Pat At It Again
“Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it.”

Mr. Buchanan, I will not argue whether or not Georgia was justified in its move on separatist Ossetia. I do, however, take umbrage at your disingenuous statement. Georgia’s military was entirely within its own sovereign borders. Not once did it cross into Russian territory.

Just because Moscow issued passports to Ossetia’s citizens, this doesn’t make Ossetia part of Russia.

Russia started “this fight” with Georgia by invading its sovereign territory.

If Great Britain had intervened against the North during the Civil War, they could just as easily have claimed that the North was the aggressor because it had invaded the South.

You are a lousy historian Mr. Buchanan.

Move fPat move
Hey, Pat ... why not just pack up and move to Russia?
. We know you like the structure of a strong state, and you really don't think much of your birth nation ... so get out!

Jack...
Sorry, I guess I'm one of your "99.9% of Americans" who are ignorant, but I still don't understand what you are getting at with this comment:

"Afghanistan for sure. Iran. Iraq. Pakistan. Poland. And now Georgia. Get a map, draw a line through all those countries and tell me that Russia is just being blindly aggerssive."

If you are being literal, a straight line cannot be drawn thru these countries, some of which are not even contiguous. I have not said Russia is being blindly agressive, although I reassert that it needs to mind it's own business and stay out of Georgian affairs.

Please specify what you are getting at since I'm clearly too stupid to understand you.

No, it wasn't
>Georgia was independent of Russia before Russia annexed it into the Soviet Union<

The last king of Georgia, George XII, from his deathbed sent to ST. Petersburg a special embassy , beggging the Tsar "to take Georgia under his full authority." On December 18, 2000, Tsar Paul I(son of Catherine the Great)formally accetped the offer and George died 10 days later. - from the book "To Caucasus" by Fitzroy Maclean

I suggest you read it you insist on making false comments on the region.

Iamfree
No, I did not mean geopolitical, though it beceomes that. I meant geographic. In what nations do American currently have the greatest political/military interest? Afghanistan for sure. Iran. Iraq. Pakistan. Poland. And now Georgia. Get a map, draw a line through all those countries and tell me that Russia is just being blindly aggerssive.

I make no apologies for saying that most Americans are ignorant of what goes on around the world. It is what it is.

Talent
" can actually listen to anyone and decide for myself what I accept or reject."

And your point is..?


Ryan01 and Jack...
Ryan01, thanks for more information. The more we know, the better we can think thru issues. Sadly, Jack has decided to take another approach...insulting people rather than educating:

"...how many do you think can find the nation of Georgia? How many realize the geogrpahic (sic) relationship shared by Ukraine, Georgia, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. DO you?"

Yes Jack, I do know where Georgia is. I have no idea what your second question is referring to. Do you perhaps mean "geopolitical"? If so, yes, I know the relationship.

Jack, not everyone who will disagree with you is uneducated or ignorant. They simply have a different worldview. Before assuming that I am ignorant of geography or geopolitical issues simply because I ask for more information, you might want to consider whether insulting me will further your desire to communicate your point of view. If you were speaking of Americans as a whole and not me specifically, I apologize, although I'm still not sure it helps any dialogue to make sweeping indictments of "99.9% of Americans." Just a thought.

wow ! now that's another perspective
If I heard this from the like of Chris Matthews.. I'd ignore it. But from Pat, it reminds me of this question-

Why do we care about the other side of the planet?

Pancho...
"Actually, Georgia has always been a part of Russia. Yeah, South Ossetia decided to declare imdependence in the 90s because that's when it was no longer part of Russia. Now, you do some math."

Georgia was independent of Russia before Russia annexed it into the Soviet Union. And South Ossetia did not declare independence. It was forced upon Georgia by Russia. And the vote that you put forth that supports your argument is about as valid as President Medvedev being democratically "elected".

Here is the difference
bookfiend. writes: 1:57 PM EST
Subject: Talent Scout said
TS: "I am listening to Rush- He is talking about this too."
====
I am not like you
I can actually listen to anyone and decide for myself what I accept or reject.

I like Rush alot, simply because so many morons (like you?) hate him

One of the few columns by Pat
that anyone with a clear thinking brain should understand. It is the internationalist attitude of both parties that has been accelerating since the end of WWII, the idea that we can move the world to a New World Order on our terms, that is the cause of this "situation".

If ever there was an election where "we the people" needed to re-assert our authority and get rid of the elites who are destroying America, this is the one!!!

The two parties have accrued too much power and that is why we find ourselves in a mess, not only domestically, but internationaly as well. If we once again vote the lesser of two evils and elect another elite to the Presidency, we will authorize more of the same: more big government, less personal freedoms, and greater influence to the internationalists who hate America.

If you care to see how the elites have perpetrated the biggest scam ever and hijacked our birthright, I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. We cannot afford another elite President!

Check out the site, why not? The elites have robbed us of our inheritance! Is anyone willing to step up and fight to reclaim it?? Thanks, Joe

BF
"Oh, great, the perfect way to become fully informed in a way that is accurate, objective, and insightful and articulate. Please spare us the quotes next time."

:D This is also superb and quite funny!

Uh, no
>South Ossetia has always been a part of Georgia. South Ossetia only decided to declare independence in the 90s. South Ossetia is heavily laced with Russian bureaucrats. You do the math.<

Actually, Georgia has always been a part of Russia. Yeah, South Ossetia decided to declare imdependence in the 90s because that's when it was no longer part of Russia. Now, you do some math.

>the de facto independent republic governed by the secessionist government held a second independence referendum[6] on November 12, 2006, after its first referendum in 1992 was not recognized by the international community as valid.[7] According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%[8] and the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations[9]. However, it was not recognized internationally by the UN, European Union, OSCE, NATO and the Russian Federation, given the lack of ethnic Georgian participation and the legality of such referendum without recognition from the central government in Tbilisi.[10] The European Union, OSCE and NATO condemned the referendum.<





Sounds Logical, But...
This all sounds logical, but the speed with which Russia "responded" means they had been planning for months and months. They did not just respond; they used this situation as an excuse to do what they intended to do.

Read what a guy like Ralph Peters says. And he is not some "neocon."

Robin
You are clearly one of those Americans that Jack refers to that loves to mouth off about this historical and complex situation without knowing the first thing relating to it, and probably unable to find it on a map.

How is this not a civil war? Are you serious?

Get a few facts - not from TH or Rush Limbaugh. I mean facts- before you pontificate on this subject.

Pat, you are way off...
as usual. You are so bent on creating a USA that is isolated from the rest of the world, you are willing to sacrifice reality. You call yourself a "real conservative" while you cavort with Matthews and Olberman on MSNBC. It appears to me Russia interfered in what was essentially a civil war within Georgia. We were lambasted by NBC for getting involved in Iraq in a civil war...a statement NBC had to retract as wholly untrue. However, in Georgia, how is South Ossetia, a part of Georgia, wanting to be independent of Georgia and Georgia saying no and backing it up, how is that not a civil war? Did Russia have the authority to intervene? If the USA was to divide into two separate countries, one liberal and one conservative, would any other country have the authority to interfere?

iamfree
First off, let me write you're welcome.

That's interesting. I'd love to see any links you might have on this. Keep in mind there is a one day's difference between here and there. The most I have seen from the WSJ, the AJC and some other papers is an acknowledgment, usually buried in the article an admittance the Georgians cross the demarcation line. Of the electronic media coverage, CNN was the worst.

I've heard that too. I do know that a drone was shot down over Abkhazia.

I'm with you. This isn't a hill I want to die on or anyone else. It is in their backyard and I think the US should stay out of this mess. The humanitarian aid is a fine idea, except I want it delivered by the Red Cross and not the US Air Force and to the S. Ossetians as well. I have a feeling that certain folks had something to do with this ill thought out plan. The Russians are already suspicious that weapons might be on those flights and in view of the previous conduct of the Bush administration I can understand why.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080814/116045281.html

Saakashvili is a loose cannon who needs to have his touch hole spiked. His latest antic was to claim that the US military was going to take over all ports and airfields, hence, the Red Cross above. This guy sounds like he is trying to widen the war.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSLD498933200 80813

This story has been, so to speak, shot down by the Pentagon.

Here's something else for you. Check out his resume.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/

One more for good measure:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/georgia.ht m

Talent Scout said, Jack said
TS: "I am listening to Rush- He is talking about this too."

Oh, great, the perfect way to become fully informed in a way that is accurate, objective, and insightful and articulate. Please spare us the quotes next time.

Jack: "Americans of all stripes are rushing to a judgement about the situation while possessing almost no information. None. Most Americans can't find the state of Georgia on a map: how many do you think can find the nation of Georgia? How many realize the geogrpahic relationship shared by Ukraine, Georgia, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. DO you?

Yet they will pontificate and, in some cases, discern the approaching end of the world. Ignorance of the highest order is at work, and it shows in the writings of people who don't recognize that Buchanan, in this case, is correct in his assessment."

Jack, I think you should post this on every TH thread, every hour. Then, send it to Limbo.


Lepanto the Leftist,gcalknet
Lepanto, people like you amaze me. Anti-slavs like you think everything Russia does is so evil. You just seem to have a hard time handling the facts as presented. Buchanan is strongly in the conservative tradition, its interventionists like yourself who are in the extreme leftist tradition. As for extremists like gcalknet, you actually think that isolating the Russians will prevent another Cold War? You are the only one out of the loop.
you need to back and reread cold war history, the soviets imploded from within. Its a shame this country never elected Buchanan for president and instead geniuses like yourselves gave us Bush, Clinton, and Bush. Thanks folks great job.

PAT AND MSNBC. What A Shame.

An excllent conservative on every social issue, Pat Buchanan continues to be stuck on the lowest rated cable news station on T.V. Why? His loony foreign policy viewpoint?

BINGO!

Fox would probably love to have him, but Pat's isolationist views are a problem. Soon hopeless MSNBC will tire of him and find a new token conservative. And Pat? He might end up on some local news show.

What a shame.

ANNE: Noticed this mrbmrb (or whatever) nut on Burt's thread. What's with this guy? Shooting to win the "Biggest Creep Of Townhall" title?!

I think he has a lock on it.

IAMFREE et al
You ask a critical question. "What am I missing here."

For 99.9% of Americans, the answer will be "everything." My point is that Americans of all stripes are rushing to a judgement about the situation while possessing almost no information. None. Most Americans can't find the state of Georgia on a map: how many do you think can find the nation of Georgia? How many realize the geogrpahic relationship shared by Ukraine, Georgia, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. DO you?

Yet they will pontificate and, in some cases, discern the approaching end of the world. Ignorance of the highest order is at work, and it shows in the writings of people who don't recognize that Buchanan, in this case, is correct in his assessment.

The Bush administration has been advocating positions and acts that are a clear provocation to Russia. And there will indeed be blowback. Many American conservatives advocate a pre-emptive attack on Iran's nuclear capacity. Most conservatives loved the idea of the Iraq invasion. Will they support a Russian invasion of Georgia like they supported the American invasion of Iraq? Will they support Russia pre-emptively attacking Polish missile installations as they support attacks on Iran?

Most Americans simply think and believe what their appointed talk show hosts tell them to think.


Pancho...
...South Ossetia has always been a part of Georgia. South Ossetia only decided to declare independence in the 90s. South Ossetia is heavily laced with Russian bureaucrats. You do the math.

"Actually, the shortest distance between Azerbaijan and Turkey is through Armenia, not Georgia. Ceyhan is a Mediterranean port, not Black Sea."

No. Going through Armenia is a greater distance. Look at this map and observe.
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/mapcenter/map.aspx

Status of S.O.
Okay, my computer is screwey and like 3 times I tried to post and my computer went to "not responding".

So, this time I'll keep it short: what is the exact status of S.O. - I see it as part of Georgia unless someone can prove to me otherwise. I know they THINK they are independent, but they are not internationally recognized as such.

To me this is Russia stirring the pot when it simply wasn't its business. It's between Georgia and the S.O.

I make no moral judgments or choose sides about whether S.O. should secede or not. It's too complicated an issue. But I don't think this is the way to handle it, although I feel that Georgia was fed up with Russia interfering. Russia has a serious bias and was not neutral and should not have been involved in the talks or the involvement should have been limited.

As a Veteran of the Cuban Missile Crisis
And Americas right and willingness to have gone to war with Russia over them placing missiles in Cuba, the reverse is just as true.

The President is now placing missiles in the Russian's world that corresponds to Cuba's proximity to the USA.

Russia is just as willing to go to war as we were back then.
And if the President will not stop his pushing the Russians, we will soon be at war with Russia.

And who knows what end that will produce.

Seems to me, the President is unaware of the danger in his policies that are pushing the Russians into a defensive and offensive stand.
Why is he ignoring the potential of war with Russia?
Why is he so caring about the borders of Georgia and ignores the Mexican Army crossing our own?

Buchanan is Out of the Loop
Georgia did not "invade" a country, it sent troops into its own province. After his last book, I thought Pat had finally lost it; now I'm convinced. The former Soviet "territories" were all, at one time, independent countries, swallowed by that bear. It is vital to stability in the region that Ukraine, Georgia and the rest be admitted to NATO. And if Russia does not like it-Tough. We cannot continue foreign policy based on how the Russians will react. Follow the Reagan model: bring the countries into NATO, arm eastern Europe, and isolate Russia. Voila; no new Cold War.

Ryan01...
Thanks for the excellent background, but you seem to be saying that American media has not said much about the Georgian barrage. I don't really agree with that; I've been hearing about it non-stop since August 8.

I'm still a little confused...I've read in several places that the Georgian attack was not unprovoked, but rather that Russian planes invaded Georgian airspace, as much as daring Georgia to do something. For whatever reason Georgia finally attacked, it seems to me that they have the right to try to prevent Russian interference.

The bigger question, in my view, is whether the U.S. should get involved. Although I do believe we should provide whatever support we can to allies, I'm not sure that this is a hill we want to die on. The Georgian president seems to have overreacted to Russian provocations, but I'm not sure the U.S. would do anything differently if we were similarly provoked by, say, Mexico or Canada if one of our states tried to break away.

I am listening to Rush
He is talking about this too.
He mentioned how the Russian Military was ready to jump into the fray, and was fully prepared for war with Georgia.
Not only are the Russians prepared for War with Georgia, they are also just as prepared to fight anyone who is looking for a fight in their area of the world.
Including Condi Rice and GW Bush, Nato and the Ukraine, toss in Poland and all comers.

I just wish Rush would mention the aide the United States has been giving for the Georgian Military build-up.
The presence of US Military and Israeli in Georgia is part of the Russian's reasons to have been ready for this fight.

Russians will not ignore Bush's meddling.

From Pravda with love
"Bush, shut your stupid mouth up"




Russia vs. Georgia
It appears that Pat is indeed more knowledgeable of American hypocrisy, current events and history than most advisers in the present and past U.S. administrations. His judgment is also balanced and morally good. If his suggestions are followed, America may attain its golden age. But I believe selfish political leaders will never listen to him and I can only see future gloom and doom for the good, old USA, which is now wantonly wasting much time, money and energy, manpower and resources overseas, which could have been utilized for the country and the 30-35 million suffering, poor Americans. Our soldiers are sent abroad and they come back dead in body bags or as wounded veterans without legs or hands or eyes. Pity the bereaved widows and families -- Roland "Skull-ant-tea".

GOOD NEWS!
So Patrick J thinks Russia won? He ain't called one right yet.

If Buchanan had been around in the 1930s, he would have said that China Started it, Japan finished it. And every move Japan made worsened its fundamentals.

The reason this fracas took place is that Dien Bien Putin is a wannabe riding a kleptocratic tiger that keeps demanding ever more easy cash flow. He no satisfy, him toast.

He has made a modest tactical gain that is pretty certain to prove costly AND he has left a US ally damaged but functional.

SDI will preclude a Pearl Harbor scenario and
homefront drilling will ruin his petro-loot.
Get with it.


Iamfree,
This mess started when Saakashkili broke a cease fire that was supposed to have resulted in talks the next day by launching an artillery barrage at the town of Tskhinvali and sending his army across the cease fire line. The hardest thing is to find stories reporting this barrage. The best sources are the foreign press. More research is in order here for this attack killed a large number of civilians and ten Russian peace keepers stationed in the area by a previous negotiated agreement. This is what set the Russians off.

Prior to this both sides, the Georgians and the South Ossetians had been skirmishing. Another factor is that there was a considerable amount of smuggling going on that no doubt also contributed to the violence. Both sides moved additional forces to adjacent areas.

Initial Prelude just before the attack. This pertains to the upcoming talks.
http://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPubli cation=4&NrIssue=281&NrSection=1&NrArticle=19821

This article from "The Guardian" (yes, I know) gives a good summary of how the whole mess got started back when the USSR broke up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/09/georgia .russia1

Here is an excellent account of the war itself all the way up to 11 August.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4 500160.ece

I hope this is useful.

Sochi agreement
By Georgia, Russia, North and South Ossetia made it clear of the terms for peace.
Georgia broke this agreement, not the Russians.

Shevardnadze:
Well, this is something that should be agreed upon with Russia. I believe the agreement with Russia is not enough now and that [the Georgian government] should now negotiate with the Ossetian side on the basis of the [Sochi] agreement.

How can this be done? Where should we place our hopes? I don't know, I'm not familiar with these issues. [In August 2004] -- I think it was in [South Ossetia's ethnic Georgian village of] Tamarasheni [in Tskhinvali's suburbs] -- a Georgian unit fought South Ossetian forces and our soldiers were literally brought to their knees.

This shows that we need to be seriously prepared, whether for peace or war.

Frankly speaking, it is our fault. We shouldn't have entered South Ossetia in the first place.

http://rfe.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/2/4F5D153D-4136-4 3DC-8559-68570797C994.html

Saakashvili started this and broke the Sochi agreement.

Only Russia can keep the peace in that area of the world.
Anyone who wants to ignore this fact will not make it go away.

Georgia can kiss South Ossetia and Abkhazia good-bye.

Who is going to make the Russians get out?
GW Bush or Nato?
Then get ready for WW III

Russia is prepared for war that they believe, true or not is being pushed on them.
There will never be another Operation Barbarossa that catches the Russians unprepared.
Call them paranoid, call them aggressors, whatever.
The Russians will fight America or Nato from their own ideas of what is right or wrong.

The President is being awfully pushy in their view, and does not matter of who is right and who is wrong, Russians will determine their own course of action anyway, like it or not


Jack...
Forgive me, but from what I know of South Ossetia, it is a region WITHIN Georgia with a large population of people who would like to be autonomous of Georgia (and who have de facto declared themselves to be so). However, pretty much the entire international community does not view it as separate from Georgia. And my understanding is that the "overwhelming" vote to align with Russia that you speak of was generally boycotted by almost all of the ethnic Georgians in the region and was not sanctioned by the government.

I return to my analogy. If California (now with a majority of former Mexican nationals) declared itself free of the U.S. because it is ethnically more closely connected to Mexico, should the U.S. just say, "sure, why not?"

What am I missing here?

Andrews
I think your assessment of Buchanan is a little hyperbolic, but I will give you that he is often an odd duck.

Still, his view of what has happened in Georgia is not his alone, and whatever leads you to think he is a nazi-lover does not automatically make his assessment invalid.

And I really wonder, after the fact that the first invasion was committed by Georgia, where America got the cajones to scold any country that violates a sovereign country. What sorry,
ridiculous hypocrites.

Critical Issue
What is critical is the lack of information upon which Americans are being asked to form their opinions. Until Russia became involved, did anyone here even know South Ossetia existed? Did anyone hear a big news story about the attack ON South Ossetia by the Georgian military?

DId anyone know that Sout6h Ossetia was an autonomous unit for decades and that they have always wanted to remain aligned with Russai. Did anyone know that they voted overwhelmingly in South Ossetia to remain aligned with Russia? That those opposing Georgian control consider themselves freedom fighters?

I doubt it very much. But now people are howling about it without knowing a thing about it. They want to restart the cold war. They ignore the role of NATO and the US in the whole thing. It all boils down to "us good, them bad."

Ignorance is a bad basis upon which to form an opinion. Buchanan, in this case, is exactly right.

Sorry, typo
I meant to write "protectionism" rather than "isolationism". I was writing something else at the same time and the two overlapped.

Sorry about that.

bookfiend
Sorry, but I have been calling Pat on his goose stepping, horstwesseleid singing ways for some time now.

He is not a "respected old columnist", he is a Nazi admirer who once had the sense to hide it better. At one time he wrote fairly conservative articles, still marred by isolationism and strange nationalist theories, but then he forgot to hide his Nazi love, and it became evident to most that he is a nut.

What is more amusing is watching the Buchanan admirers explain away his fawning paeans to Hitler.

Pancho
Wow, more evidence. Those who call others "sheep" because they disagree also tell me they have no substantive arguments. Or else they are simply so arrogant they can't believe everyone doesn't agree with them. Neither makes your case seem very strong.

Interesting to watch
cons coming out with their torches and pitchforks to do in any previously-admired columnist who says something they don't like.

This column is one of the first intelligent, thought-out analysis of what is going on in Georgia, whether you like it or not. What's pathetic is McCain's we-are-all-Georgians cheesy political theater that he can always count on to suck in the less informed and most easily manipulated among us.

I read, in fact, this morning, that McCain is sending his campaign advisors (including, I suspect, his Georgian lobbyist adviser who is obviously calling in a few favors).

this unfortunate episode is the result of abject stupidity, and is being fueled by Americans with their own personal agendas.

As for the Russians over-reacting, I'm not defending it, but does anybody remember Israel bombing Lebanon back to the stone age?

andrews - The Stalinist
Stalin was a Georgian. He's he one who drew the borders that Georgia says are legitimate.

You're a sheep, following the anti-Russian position because you think it's conservative. It's not. Freedom for South Ossetia means freedom from Georgia. Always has. Even Stalin set up South Ossetia as an autonomous oblast.

It is not
>If so, then whether or not South Ossetia has lengthy historical ties to Georgia or not is irrelevant. It is part of Georgia now, and Russia should mind it's own business.<

It is not part of Georgia. It has been autonomous even before Georgia was independent.

Buck
Got some news for you. I can't be a RINO for I hate the Republican party for its internationalism. The same goes with the Democrats. How do you like siding with Saakashvili (that's the thug running Georgia) since he is a good friend of George Soros?

Thanks again for your comments above proving my point. People like you are why people like me refer to the Republicans as the "Stupid party".

By the way, can you even find Georgia on the map and I don't mean the one in the US. There are two different ones. (hint: it's overseas)

Funny
The more people blame "neocons" for this conflict, the more certain I am that Georgia is in the right.

I thought perhaps there was some grey area, but once I see people frothing at the mouth shouting about "neos" driving poor Russia to reluctantly invade, I know there is less grey than I thought.

The shortest distance
Actually, the shortest distance between Azerbaijan and Turkey is through Armenia, not Georgia. Ceyhan is a Mediterranean port, not Black Sea.

However, the Armenians and Azeris have fought border wars themselves, plus there is an offshoot in Tbilisi which does go to a Georgian Black seaport.

Two Words for Buck...

Grow Up.

Hmmm..
Is Putin replacing Hitler in Pat's heart?

Well, at least it will seem like familiar ground. There is a history of antisemitism, both hate Poles, and Putin's even using the Sudetenland tactics.

And for those who say it isn't "really" part of Georgia, would you also allow Mexico to invade Texas to aid "separatists"? The logic is pretty much the same.

A little class please...
C'mon, folks, is it necessary to spray the thread down with testosterone and insults? It's so much more fun to read the threads when people conduct themselves with a little class.

A few posters have mentioned that Georgia had been under attack by elements within South Ossetia supported by Russia prior to the Georgian attack. I have not had a chance to review the timeline. Is that true? If so, then whether or not South Ossetia has lengthy historical ties to Georgia or not is irrelevant. It is part of Georgia now, and Russia should mind it's own business. This would be like California deciding it does not wish to be part of the U.S. (dare to dream) and in order to break away, decided to start conducting assaults in Arizona or Nevada. If the U.S. retaliated, and Canada invaded the U.S. to stop us, would we be happy if the world said we were wrong? Just a thought.

Vasoline or K-Y
Gee, Pat. What do you like want used on you when meeting with your russian handlers?

Absolutely garbage and trash.
First of all, it is completely disingenuous that Patrick Buchanan would now become a libertarian conservative that, when he was serving in the Reagan he did not raise any of these concerns. In fact, if he did, it was his duty to resign his post because his beliefs were running counter to that of his boss. Hmm, this sounds like a certain press secretary that served in a current administration that decided to print a book bashing his boss because he didn't like what his boss was doing...but was actively defending his boss while employed by said administration.

That said, I am absolutely sick and tired of people trying to make this the fault of the United States. Let's take this so called bypass of the oil pipeline from Azerbijan to the Caspian Sea. It just so happens that going from Azerbijan, through Georgia and finally Turkey is far more cheaper and efficient than going Azerbijan, through Russia, cutting back through Georgia and going back through Turkey. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line: the shortest distance between Azerbijan and the Caspian sea is through Georgia, NOT Russia.

Secondly, it is always with hindsight when we can say how we should or shouldn't have acted, but that rarely helps with future events. We're not clairvoyant. If we're going to play this game, perhaps we shouldn't have partnered with the Soviet Union to fight the Germans and then after that, we shouldn't have given Russia a seat at the UN Security Council. This way, we would've cut Russia out of all relations and would not even have to worry about dealing with them. Then again, I think that this would have only made the situation even worse, but since we're playing this game of isolationism and noninterventionism in international affairs, I might as well jump in with both feet.


JFK a Neocon?

JFK would be the worst of the worst according to today's Liberal definition of Neocon.

Actually, JFK was far more aggressive than Mr. Bush in defending Freedom loving people around the world. Risking Nuclear annihilation over tiny little Cuba and a few missiles. Sending the CIA out to every corner of the Globe. Supporting Mercenaries, etc.

Neocon is a nice title. And when the peace-loving narcissistic Liberals find themselves with their backs against the wall, facing Mr. Bear, they will rejoin JFK and say...

Me Too!

...
Mr.Buchanan, I salute you!

Buck! I agree that Ryan is slightly

less than limited, not to mention clueless (as are MOST lefists.)

But, YOU have got to get yourself under control. You're acting and behaving just like we expect from the lunatic left..

That juvenile name calling isn't helping you make a point. STOP lowering yourself to their gutter level....

You've got a little "growing up" to do, and possibly some "anger management" to deal with.





Let the EU handle this
We really need to transition to a world where problems with the ex Soviet republics are EU problems. The American people are NOT interested in maintaining an empire -- this is true of many conservatives (like me) as well as most liberals.

We can't afford it, we don't want to do it, and it is not in our national interest to do it.


The only time I have been ashamed
to be an American was when we brutalized the Serbian civilian population to snatch away Kosovo. Imagine if a foreign power plucked Philadelphia from us. Russia suffered a humiliation in the treatment of its ally and intrusion into its sphere that anyone familiar with the Russian spirit knew she would not long abide.

The accounts are now square, no? Saving for the fact that, unlike the Kosovo genocide, Georgia's attack on ethnic Russians in South Ossitia actually happened.

Jesus spoke a pithy parable in Luke 13 about the appropriate thought process for king with 10,000 who considers war with an enemy boasting a force twice as large.

Russia's self-respect and nationalism are refreshing counter currents to these emasculated citizens-of-the-world times. We should embrace her that we might learn from her.

Where's the Beef?
My first time through 'comments' is probably my last. What a boat load of drivel, particularly PB's unsubstantiated assertions. Apologies to those few who reasonably called PB on his unfounded generalities regarding the situation

A better analogy
>Saddam and Putin were two peas in a pod.<

Actually Saddam has more in common with Saakashvili. Both of them decided to punish those in autonomous regions for being breakaway provinces, Saddam with the Kurds and Saakashvili with the South Ossetians.

he only difference is that when Saddam gassed the Kurds, we said nothing, did nothing. Well, that's not exactly true. We did provide Turkey with weaponry so that they could kill and oppress their Kurdish population.

How funny...
Yet somewhat sad, to hear of G. WALKER Bush speak of this conflict. The man, and the country he so uniquely represents, have absolutely no credibility on the world stage in terms of morality. His country now murders innocents and tortures, by his command. Yet the Idiot -in- Chief stands like a martinet, braying about "bullying" by Russia. What a clown.

Isn't this All Bill Clinton's Fault?

For all the Liberal trollers...

It was Bill Clinton and the Liberal ninnies who Bombed Serbia... Forced Serbia into Putin's Homosexual arms... and Frightened the little Psychopath Putin into reconstituting the KGB.

Where exactly did Bush bomb any Russian ally?

Oh, that's right, Iraq. Bush took out a fellow Psychopathic Killer buddy of Putin's.

Saddam and Putin were two peas in a pod. Perverted sexual-psychopaths with hygiene and homicide issues.

But, to the ignorant Liberals, even poisoning journalists does not constitute the label of Psychopath. No, you ignorant ninnies call murdering reporters, justice. And mass graves, environmentally friendly.

Pathetic!

Mr. Buchanan, first I pray
"Forgive Pat, for he knows not about what he speaks."

Then I say read Anatoliy Golitsyn's book "New Lies For Old." One fellow said he researched the book and found Anatoliy's predictions running at about 85%. From what I have read in the book, I can agree that Anatoliy is somewhat a prophet on the former USSR and communistic goals.

Because of having read parts of this book mentioned, I never agreed that we (USA) won the Cold War. By nature, men are evil and we will always have evil men in this world who wants to subject the world to their dominion.

A Christian nation's only recourse, and the only one that will work, is "When a strong man armed keepth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Now the questions are: Is America a Christian nation? Do we want America to be the strongest nation armed? Or Russia? Do we want to live under Russian rule? Or Islamic rule?

I'll still choose American.

Saakashvili's real foolishness
was to believe that NATO would save him from the wrath of a power-mad self-perceived czar (who really wants the old Russian Empire--extending all the way to the Vistula) who doesn't entirely care about how it looks in media, compounded with the fact that the US is in an election year with mandatory change of president. Putin, seeing "now time to roll" and helped by Saakashvili's foolishness, took the opportunity

See BBC's report today about Russia "losing propaganda war"--which misses the fact that Putin doesn't care how Western media perceive him.

Who said?
>South Ossetia is part of Georgia, not Russia.<

Stalin. South Ossetia and Abkhazia were gifts to Georgia from Stalin.

Buck
"I don't Drink or Smoke and I work out every day.

Want a piece of me Twerp ?"

Now I know you're not only a drunk, but a loudmouth fool on top of it.

Thanks for the early morning laugh.

Historical?
>Excuse me, Buchanan, South Ossetia is within and an integral part of Georgia under internationally recognized and historical borders.<

Well, yeah, if you're a Stalin fan. Stalin, a Georgian, was the one who made the borders of the Soviet Republic of Georgia which contained the autonomous oblasts of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

When the USSR broke up, South Ossetia and Abkhazia immediately pleaded that they not be engulfed by Georgia. They voted overwhelmingly for independence numerous times, but, you're right here, the internationalists ignored them in their glee to see the empire of the USSR dismantled.

There is no more Georgian historical claim on South Ossetia and Abkhazia than there is Russian historical territorial claim on Georgia.
And were it not for Russian protection thriough the years, Georgia would have been overrun by marauding Muslims from Persia or Turkey or Nazis.

Nice article Pat.

Buchanan’s Premise Pathetic
This article would be excellent if any of the facts were true. South Ossetia is part of Georgia, not Russia. With Russian assistance criminal forces in South Ossetia attacked legitimate forces in Georgia. Georgia attempted to stop this illegal attack within its borders when the Russian Army violated the territorial sovereignty of the Georgian nation. Buchanan has joined the far left in blaming the West for all the world’s problems. Pathetic!

Love ya Pat, a true patriot.

May God richly bless you and may the Lord open the eyes of your understanding to the word of God (the bible). Amen.

What a tradegy that Pat never graced the office of the president of the United States for 8 years as Commander in Chief. What a tragedy that won't begin next January either.

Pat is right.

Bush has no moral authority to judge what Putin did, none. He is a man who has no understanding of human nature (Bush, that is). He is devoid of wisdom and very little intelligence.

I hope the democrats impeach him, though the republicans ought to have done it before the 2006 election. They were too gutless and immoral to do so and have now lost the high ground.

Rudy Guiliani was on Salem Radio a few days ago exemplifying the stupidity of the Bush wing of the GOP. He said, Putin had no justification for invading Georgia like Bush had for invading Iraq after we were attacked on 911. Does this guy really believe this lie, because if it is not a lie, he only proves he is dumb as dirt and shouldn't be on the radio representing the GOP.

Lord help us, the GOP leadership is truly wicked and insane. That leaves the nation to the mercy of the ravenous wolves on the left.

The big umbrella hanging over the circus tent of the Republican Party is strangling it.

Checkmate
Fast tracking Georgia for NATO membership was based solely on controlling that pipeline. Georgia, after all, is of no other strategic value, unless, of course, NATO also wants to surround Russia.

NATO was formulated as a Europeon alliance. Georgia is not in Europe. It's in the Caucasus. And, it is clearly within the Russian Sphere of Influence.

Bush and NATO have ignored this. Bush has tried to rewrite the foreign policy handbook. Previous Presidents understood and accpeted the policy of sphere's of influence, and none would've extended NATO to Georgia. And they never even tried.

Bush did - and the Bear simply reminded him of this indisputable historic reality. Georgia was not a part of Europe, shared no common borders with other NATO members or with Europe, and could neither be supported nor supplied by NATO without other countries granting access to their air space or their land.

Russia knew this, and equally knew that her ICBM's ensured that no one would directly confront her over Georgia.

You can make book on the following. First, Georgia will lose the breakaway provinces. Second, Russia will control the pipeline. Third, Georgia will never be a part of NATO.

This is not about sovereignity, this is about power and sphere's of influence.

Bush over-reached, and has now been checkmated.

Good Ol' Uncle Pat
Pat Buchanan has once again secured his place as the crazy old uncle in the attic.
Well, someone has to play that role...but why does he have to be "our" uncle?

Pat is like...
... the little girl with the little curl. When he's right, he's very, very right... and when he's wrong (as here), he's awful.

Equivocation
I am not familiar with all the details of th conflict in Georgia. But I am irritated at Pat's nearly-constant denigration of the US. I know the mentality: what glory in pointing out the vileness of and obviously vile form of government. But it one find fault with the best form of government ever to be on the face of this earth, then that elevates the fault-finder to high level.

US aggression and Russian aggression are not the same thing. Russia having missiles in Cuba in the 60's is not the same thing as US having a missile defense shield in Poland.

US invading a sovereign nation that threatend us and its neighbors is not the same thing as Russia invading a nation who was no threat to Russia. If I understand it correctly, the conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia is and INTERNAL conflict, is it not? What business did Russia have in it.

The history of the last 100 years has shown that US's "invasion" have generally been to free people: Russia's invasions have been to dominate them. There is quite a difference there. One can argue whther our invasions were a good idea, but most have been for good motives.

What happened to you, Pat?
You have many fine qualities. A capacity to see yourself as others see you is not high among them. So this was Saakashvili and Bush's fault? What a joke!

einahteb...Good Point!

Maybe these nations have something to fear?

Maybe living on Russia's border gives them insights?

Insights Pat cannot see, or in classic Liberal-speak, does not wish to see.

Otherwise... Why are they "Begging" to join NATO?


Wait...
I don't really understand how allowing former Soviet states into NATO is some sort of strike or offense against Russia. They no longer answer to Russia. It's their choice. That's the whole point of sovereignty.

Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, etc.?

Russia is quite supportive of the enemies of Freedom. It's not that Russia (USSR) 'used' to support these tyrants, they never stopped supporting tyrannical regimes.

Russia stopped helping Cuba etc. because they ran out of money... They're still on the same side as the commies. (Just who is helping Iran's psychopathic government build A-bombs?)

Putin and his gang of thugs have destroyed Democracy in Russia, jailed capitalists, murdered journalists, and show no support of a Democratic middle-East.

Pat created 'his' big picture out of several 'selective' little pictures. Chris Matthews will have a nice leg-shiver while reading this nonsense article.

Serbia is a decent argument, Clinton overreacted in classic Liberal style. But, to ignore Putin's goal of Euro-Asian dominance is just dumb.


If The USA Can Do It Why Not Russia
Jorge Bush and neos invade a country without provocation and wants to place missiles in Russia's face -- and Jorge wants to get serious. What a stupid dumbbell and I voted for him twice - what a stupid dumbbell. And the "best" that the Repubs throw at us to vote for is McShame. What a world! Obamamama has the best solution, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, which ever hardly slowed up a Russian tank before.

Buchanan Is WRONG and stupid
Given how Pat Buchanan has been writing drivel in recent years about foreign policy matters, I expected that he would write something off the mark concerning Georgia. But this article takes the prize for being WRONG and indeed is disgusting.

Buchanan condemns Saakaskvili's "invasion" of South Ossetia? Excuse me, Buchanan, South Ossetia is within and an integral part of Georgia under internationally recognized and historical borders.

Buchanan's approach, like left wing isolationists, is to blame the victim of Russia's brutal invasion, and it was Russia that did the invading here. Similarly, his revisionist history of World War II blames Poland. It is all nonsense that does not face up to the aspirations of dictators. Hitler's Nationalist Socialist Germany was committed to war and expansion of its eastern borders. Putin's Russia is committed to the use of war to re-establish the old Soviet Union. Putin, whom McCain rightly has seen as KGB, detests the democracy that Georgia is building, free of Russian domination, and detests Saakashvili, an American educated lawyer who is dedicated to a free democratic Georgia.

Yet, Buchanan ignores Georgia's commitment to democracy and true independence and, siding with the KGB Putin, lambastes Georgia for its "audacity" to having territorial integrity. No mention is made of Russian steps before the invasion to break South Ossetia away and make it effectively part of Russia.

This is not analysis on Buchanan's part. This is stupid rationalization to do nothing. The problem with doing nothing, just as with Hitler, is that Putin won't stop with Georgia. A far more dangerous conflict will eventually erupt, and we will wonder why we did not stop it earlier with Georgia. Buchanan's kind of isolationism was shown by World War II to be wrong. We don't need to be listening to Buchanan and relearn old lessons at great cost.

Lessdon Learned
Do not start a war you cannot win! That situation called for diplomacy period. South Ossetia wanted to join North Ossetia as a state in Russia. Georgia did not want that to happen so Georgia tried to stop them with an attack that failed.

The Big Bear rolled in with tanks, personnel carriers fulled of Russian soldiers ready to kill anyone in view.

They spanked Georgia like a baby. Looked like Georgia had a ragtag Army who deserted the posts and left their ammo in tact on their vehicles.

The Russian pilots did a bunch of damage to Georgia that will take a very long time to rebuild. Now Russia, the victor with the spoils is calling the shots.

Russia is POed about the oil pipeline running thru Georgia from the Caspian to the Black Sea and they want control of all the energy (oil) in that part of the world so they can control the world.

Is anyone willing to die for Georgia?
The purpose of our government is to protect us: this is compromised by foreign adventures. I will die for my country, but not for Ukraine or Georgia.

The appeal to our vanity is Georgia's greatest weapon in this fight. Get the Americans to act on their self-image as liberators of the world.

Incidentally, this column was one of the few media mentions of Georgia's initiation of military force.





Pat is right and courageous here
Awesome.

Where's Ronnie when you need him
Ronald Reagan handed us a country that was unquestionably the greatest on earth. Had he remained our leader this noblest of men would have treated the defeated russians with the dignity and respect due a great adversary, giving them aid and help to rebuild their country.

Instead, the rookies who succeeded him looked down on and thumbed their nose at them, and as their country was being plundered by gangsters of every hue we shook our common head - Well, what did you expect from THEM.

In making the colossal errors listed in Pat's fine piece the US behaved like a schoolyard bully and showed a total lack of decency, let alone class. We never looked back, we kept going from blunder to blunder, reacting to this event or that event rather than acting from principled strength as Reagan had done.

The drifting started with the rudderless Bush senior and only got worse with time. We left huge openings in our sloppy game. The islamists, Iran, China, Hugo Chavez, etc. moved into those gaps, those open doors, because we left them there.

Putin is doing the same thing, but he is by far the best player on the scene, he knows all of our weak points and he will play us likea balalaika. Stay tuned.

Wow. It has taken us only 20 years to squander Reagan's City on the Hill and to find ourselves sleepwalking in the middle of a fine day.



MORE UTTER NONSENSE FROM THIS FOOL!

Hey, Pat. How's the Isolationist Party of America coming along? Let's look over the party's bylaws.

1. The United States must never fight any war ever. Also, they should immediately apologize for helping save the world and defeat Germany twice. Especially WW II.

(Note: The defeat of Nazi Germany, the country Pat loves with all his heart and soul, still bugs Pat. He'll never get over it.)

2. Israel must NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER attack anyone. They must sit there, do nothing, and wait to be destroyed by their enemies. This is fair.

(Note: There's much more. However, suffice it to say Rules 1 and 2 sum of Pat's Isolationist Party. Sum it up perfectly, actually.

Insightful article by Buchanan
I read this morning where Poland now is more vigorously pursuing U.S. missile batteries on her soil, and the obvious conclusion is this decision was prompted by the Russian response to the provocations of Georgia on South Ossetia.

So while Buchanan is correct that Saakhashvili foolishly blundered on south Ossetia, the feedback among some former Soviet states is one of increased apprehension over the reemergence of the Russian bear.

Are they justified in their apprehension?

Perhaps.

But more likely not...unless, like Georgia, they provoke the Bear.

Only an idiot would say the USSR is back.

But Russia has put the world, including the United States on notice, that she intends to reassert herself as a major power.

So neocons who drool with anticipation over the prospect of making an enemy of Russia should take solace from the stupidity of Saakhashvila, for it now has given policy makers here a reason to reappraise our relationship with Russia.

Not only do we have implacable enemies with most the Muslim world, including Iran, and increasing worries over China's military prowess, but now we can chalk Russia up as an enemy.

A neocon wetdream if ever there was one..as long as it is someone else's kid who is called on to serve our nation as a consequence of having so many dragons out there to slay.

Neocons only set up these situations.

But neocons and their kids don't actually do the fighting...they don't slay no stinkin' dragons.

That is for the kids of the lower social/economic classes.

Russia, the Muslim world, soon China, hey, we got loads of dragons to slay.

Whoopie.

Make em all enemies.

Agree with Buchanan on the utter hypocrisy of Bush opposing self determination for south Ossetians(from Georgia), yet clamoring for self determination of Muslims in Kosovo(from Serbia).

Indeed, Bush has even called for an Islamic state(Kosovo)in the heart of central(Christian) Europe.

Patrick Buchanan in three words:
Old style fascist. If you read all his posts you realize that sums it up. The state is the unit of importance, the state has the right to try and conquer and enslave as much of the rest of the world as it has the military might to. All must have allegience to their state and attempt to do what is good for their state at the expense of the rest of the world.
Any interaction between the state and the rest of the world is to be handled with only the interests of the state in mind and all other states are expected to do the same. Human civilization is reduced to a giant eternal game of Risk(tm). in the 19th century this was how things worked and everyone accepted that. Unlike Patrick Buchanan, Vladimir Putin, and the late Saddam Hussein the rest of us have thankfully moved on since then.

Sugary Sweet
"Most Americans sure are stupid, aren't they?"

In Buck's case, make that drunk, too.

Just desserts!
Finally, someone in the national media calls a spade a spade. How does murdering South Ossetians in their sleep merit a seat at the NATO table? And he did it with our arms & our training.
I don't care if he went to Columbia Law and speaks 5 languages. Raw aggression by a democrat is still raw aggression. The US needs this guy like it does another 9/11. He's not only treacherous but without the good sense to not go around poking the Russian Bear.
Buchanan had some big brothers. Maybe that's part of why he's so spot-on here.

PUTIN NOT the FOOL


silly people::

Putin is NOT THE FOOL::: the 50% of USA illiterates, incompetents, brain fried druggies, democrats, Obama are the FOOLS

Putin knows exactly what we are: HOLLYWOOD ga ga ga star gawkers: Kiddy porn kings: brain fried druggies, drunks, lazy slobs, parasites, leeches, gluttons, and illiterate:

HE knows that WE will elect Obama and Putin cannot wait for Jan 20th: OBAMA will destroy the USA in the first 100 days:

a TIRE GAUGE< RATIONs is NOT an economic strategy


Putin's march to CONTOL ENERGY::

take an honest look:::

Putin needs 100% control of the oil / gas pipeline:

Putin almost died laughing at Obama's order to have everyone in the world get an equal share:

Putin has been finding, drilling, pumping, raking in the cash, and building vaults to store more cash into the future:

Obama's tire gage will NOT save the West from Putin:

Putin gave NATO THE FINGER: he has one objective and that is to control the world by controlling all energy resources:

Putin is wetting his pants with glee that the USA is so obsessed with the Hollywood star immature, incompetent, dumber than utterly stupid Obama and he is going to have 4 banner years of unlimited wealth and control of the WORLD:

Putin is in a position to give the world the finger: He has IRAN< CHINA< N KOREA and Hugo Chavez under his thumb and will become WORLD dictator of who gets what share of energy:

SOLUTION: the USA must drill everywhere NOW:






Five stars
[True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?]

And to add insult to injury "we" also shipped in a load of cluster bombs three days prior to the end of this mess, knowing the Israelis were going to cover southern Lebanon with them out of spite for being bested by Hezbollah.

There is a lesson here. A large power doesn't allow a small one to drag it into its problems like Israel constantly tries to do with us and succeeds all too often. It is idiocy like this that got WWI started.

I feel sorry for all those people who got killed on both sides due to criminals like Saakashvili and the neocons. It is entirely appropriate to try them as war criminals.

At the end a number of us will appreciate Medvedev and Putin's action in insuring we won't get stuck with a Caucasus mountain version of Israel or worse, WWIII due to these idiots.

Pat is right!
It's just a shame that we have neocon nitwits everywhere calling the shots instead of a commonsense conservative like Pat. Instead of making friends with Russia, we go out of our way to tick them off. Nice job neocons.

Comrade Buchanan!
The only "fight" Buchanan ever finished was his struggle to get out of the draft.

A+
PLEASE Mr. Buchanan, don't ever leave us. As columns like this one demonstrate, you are one of the only rational (and truly conservative) voices remaining in America today. You would have been one of the greatest presidents in American history. Not in your name does America continue on its tragic course.

Thank you, Mr. Buchanan
It's refreshing to see a TH columnist write about what's really going on instead of the usual just responding to what liberals are saying about Bush, McCain and etc. or else defending them no matter what they do.

Being a conservative does not mean being an echo for Bush/McCain. It means standing up for conservative values. Doing otherwise amounts to being a CINO/neo-con and pushing for people to stay duped. They'll soon be forgotten, but you won't.

Georgia wrong to shell when attacked?
Pat - My understanding is that Ossetia was shelling Georgia before George retaliated. True, they would have been better off to bite the bullet like Israel regularly does - but to take offense at Georgia for attempting to stop the shelling - at least that is the information I got on the radio this evening from KTTH Seattle Radio.

Talent Scout
I live just north of Atlanta and I just thank my lucky stars they only got as far as this Gori place, wherever that is.

Seriously, for once I agree with you Talent Scout. What in God's name did the neocons hope to gain from backing this mountebank Saakashvili?

your country needs you Pat
to other conservatives: being fair and thoughtful is a virtue too.

Exactly the way I see it Patrick
Except for this statement you made.

"Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear"

Thats wrong Pat
Mikheil Saakashvili knew what he was doing and now has the attention of the world on Russia's response to his knife attack on a sleeping city.

Its very easy to find fault with the Russians now, everyone in the world knows these guys will fight back.

Course President Mikheil Saakashvili relied on Russia acting like Russian's and sure enough the Russians are hitting back hard.

President Mikheil Saakashvili is probably having champagne tonight to celebrate his victory in the sympathy he is getting now from a world who thinks this moron is a victim.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.