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Monday, July 07, 2008
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
My Right to Unlimited Rights
by Mike Adams
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Not long ago, I was having a gathering of about eight people at my house. The last guy to show up walked right into my kitchen and then protested because he couldn’t find any bottled water in the refrigerator. Next, he complained that we ate all the snacks before he showed up thirty-five minutes late. When he finally came into the living room to sit down, he asked what we were talking about. I told him we were talking about economics, which involves not just demand but supply. I joked that he wouldn’t have to demand any bottled water and snacks if he’d remembered to supply some, too. That drew a laugh from one of our mutual friends.

This trait of being more in love with consumption than production is one shared by most of my socialist colleagues in academia. They base their lives on the idea of taking “from each according to his ability” and giving “to each according to his need.” The problem is that they do a better job of articulating their needs than promoting their abilities. This is, of course, because socialists are generally short on abilities. They seek socialism because they think being guaranteed an average outcome is safer than trying to beat the average in a system based on merit, which is otherwise known as ability.

Anyone watching the 2008 presidential race has doubtless seen a similar dynamic among supporters of Barack H. Obama. Most of his supporters have been talking about rights without any mention of the notion of responsibilities. Like supply and demand, and need and ability, the terms rights and responsibilities are best understood in relation to one another. For example, I have a 2nd Amendment Right to Bear Arms that the government cannot simply take away from me on a whim. But I also have a responsibility for everything that occurs between the time I discharge a bullet and the time the bullet comes to its final stopping point.

But consider the following list of “rights” that supporters of Obama have recently told me that we all have:

Everyone has the right to a college education. I can’t imagine what it will be like as a college professor once Obama implements this one. I’ve been teaching to the occasional unqualified black and the occasional unqualified athlete for years. But now that everyone, including, presumably, the mentally retarded, has a right to a college degree, I might just retire and become a firearms instructor. Hopefully, Obama will not grant a Right to Firearms Education to both idiots and the insane. (Author’s Note: This one came from Obama himself).

Everyone has a right to breathe clean air. This is a really bad idea for the Obama campaign. If everyone starts to enforce his right to breathe clean air in the presence of swarthy young Muslims, Obama might lose an important part of his electoral base.

Everyone has a right to free health care. I recently learned this from an incoming Drexel law student appearing on The O’Reilly Factor. Bill did a great job by asking her whether this right is in the constitution or whether it just comes from the fact that she is a really nice person. She was forced to admit that it was not in the constitution. She should do really well in law school because she’s a really nice person.

Everyone has a right to demand that the rich pay taxes in proportion to their ability to pay taxes. I recently learned this from an incoming Yale law student on the same segment of The Factor. Everyone agrees that the rich should pay more taxes than the poor. What is controversial is the notion that they should also pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes. But that was not the issue in this segment. The issue was whether the existing gap in the proportion of taxes paid by the poor and the rich should be widened and, if so, by how much. When someone says we have a right to tax the rich “in proportion to their ability to pay” they mean “tax them until they can no longer pay” or “tax them until they are bankrupt.” Many people who hold this view were not actually alive during the Carter Administration. But they have taken history classes from people who assure us that he was really not such a bad president.

Every gay man has a right to feel comfortable. I heard this one from a first-year law student at Yale. He actually informed me thrice that his right to be comfortable as a gay man trumps the First Amendment. I guess they don’t teach constitutional law until the second year of the Yale law program. But the question is: How did this sissy get into Yale Law School?

After spending only a little time listening to followers of the Dali Bama I have concluded that, in Obama’s America, everyone gets to declare at least one new fundamental right regardless of whether it is written into the constitution. And so, naturally, I am going to declare first that I have a right to unlimited rights. (This is sort of like making one’s only wish a request for unlimited wishes).

My second declaration of a new right is a little more complicated. First, I believe that I have a right to demand that you show me a copy of the U.S. Constitution every time you demand a new right. And if you cannot identify the constitutional basis of your proposed right, you forfeit that right as well as your right to vote in 2008. And, of course, I get to cast the vote you forfeited.

So, those of you prone to simply announce fundamental rights without any constitutional basis should beware that this could soon deprive you of the right to vote. Until now, it’s only deprived of you the right to sound intelligent.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Well, you surely are persuasive...
I mean, I was going to vote for Obama just because he's so much more attractive than the alternative.

As much as I disagree on your extreme republican views on... everything...

Gosh, I hate it when you're right.

bottled water
The rip off of the centry!

My favorite "right"
I found this one in the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights: the right to electricity. Can you imagine what an American lawyer could do with that if it was a right in this country? Or will we be getting that right as soon as the Obamessiah is prez? Sheesh, what a bunch of maroons.

God Given Not Constitution Given
While I agree with the sentiment in your column, I must remind you that the founders and ratifiers of the Constitution did not hold that only those rights enumerated in the Constitution were valid. That's why they gave us the 10th Amendment. The Constitution protects rights; it does not grant them. Only God does that. For example, there's no enumerated right to life in the Constitution, but one certainly exists.

For Gruntz
First of all, I think you have named yourself appropriately. Second of all, your statement about whether or not your rights were contained in the Constitution was stated in the following manner: Lest anyone doubt that these rights indeed are protected under the United States Constitution, look to much of the whole of American history from (and especially) the Progressive Era and the New Deal, not to mention the 14th and, importantly, the Ninth Amendments to the Constitution.

First, you tell us to study history (funny, I didn't think liberals read history) and look at the New Deal with violated a lot of constitutional principles and was only justified by the government because of the Depression. Then WWII came along and put people back to work. Sigh, hard power. Then you don't mention any enumerated rights in the Constitution, preferring the catchall due process 14th and the Ninth (those rights not given to the government are reserved for the people). So, where else are all of these rights you are talking about located in the Constitution? Inquiring minds want to know.

Desert Rat
Well, the word "right" is a legal term. So you could make the argument that all the rights we've ever had are all the rights there are, and it's the law's job to recognize our preexisting natural rights and protect them, but not make up new ones.
You could also argue that rights are not primordial entities, but as far as anyone can tell, man-made things forged by consensus. If you value secular democracy, you'll probably prefer the second possibility, because the first one forces you to choose whose tradition is going to be privileged in deciding what our "universal" primordial rights are. On the other hand, if you are a theocrat deep down, you'll want to argue point #1.

The gay thing
It's not about the guy's right to feel comfortable, in the sense of having his feet up on the ottoman all the time. It is about his right to be free from abuse, which is not a "special" right, as many anti-gay activists would claim, but only the same basic dignity that is the birthright of everyone. I know this is obvious, but it's just one more of Mike Adams' pernicious, belligerent, and unwarranted mis-characterizations that have become the hallmark of his writing style. This column is full of them, but that one struck me as especially worth pointing out today.

Children have the right to ...
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, just like adults. That clearly includes children, male and female, along with all adults.

When a child is abused sexually or other wise, whether they like it or not, such abuse alters the brains, and awakens emotions that should not be awakened, or even explored until that are more mature. Children want to learn and they appropriate good discipline--it is necessary. That is not abuse. A child that does not learn to be disciplined through personal self-mastery was abused for lack of loving council, and encouragement.

I have a Right to Life Liberty and
the pursuit of happiness. In addition, so do defenceless Human Embryos.

When our internal compass goes haywire, it is not reliable. The reason it goes haywire is because we have failed to choose reliable values and standards that are truly of time-less universal self-evident principles of law--we simply fail to see their merit.

The constitution is an inspired document protects our God given rights, to freedom; but freedom is not free.

We have a right to own a car, but a car is not free; we must purchase that car. Freedom comes with a price and you will find that on my blog.

http://e-spirituality.blogtownhall.com/2008/07/08/freedom_i s_not_free!.thtml

Actually - one more thing
It's oaky to call them "Founding Fathers" rather than the diminutive "founders". They were, afterall, men, and they all had children (as far as I know... though that doesn't matter.)

Was George Washington the 'Father of our Country' or... something else?

And Farshooter
I can't say I agree with your opinion - simply because it tends to rely on having the ability to read the Founding Father's minds.

But, well put, and I certainly agree with your RIGHT to post it! :)

Take care, partner.


Entertainment
I don't post here often - generally I just stop in to read how the liberals are making horses' behinds of themselves. They certainly didn't let me down this time.

What NUT jobs!!! (They better be careful - Jesse will "cut them out".) HA! ha-ha-ha!

Who needs TV SitCom! We have silly liberals!!!

Y'All tend to forget --
The words, "Show me where the right to xxxxxxx [take your pick] is in the Constitution" denies one small fact.

The Bill of Rights was never intended to be an all-inclusive listing of our inalienable rights. Y'All treat them like they are limited to those, and those only, and that there are no others. Research the reasons given for their inclusion and awaken. The founders knew what they were doing and how governments acted to deny rights.

Our founders listed those specific rights to absolutely forbid the government's denying us those rights; the Amendments are extremely clear, unambiguous and based on common sense. It is the lawyers and the judges who quibble about their meaning, perhaps because they have no common sense.

So asking where a particular right is listed in the Constitution is nonsensical. The others just weren't seen as important enough to the preservation of our truly important rights to be specifically listed.

What Libs Don't Realize and Never Will
IS that it's not a right if someone else has to provide it for you.

Period.

Gestell...
I agree that the founders weren't trying to come up with an exhaustive list. I think the issue Mr. Adams was trying to press in this article is that there is an explosion of "rights" being thrown about.

The social contract implied in parenting has been codified to deal with abusive parents and child molesters. I would argue that as an example of where one person's rights end where they start infringing on those of another. A child doesn't have the option of just ignoring an abusive parent. They are stuck in their situation.

I'm overweight (working on it, but...). If someone calls me "fatty" or "blubberb__t" should I sue them? Or should I just walk away? If it is my boss or a coworker, what keeps me from just finding another job? As an adult, I have options to deal with others' biases and/or stupidity. I don't see that I have or need a "right" when there are other means of remedy.

And, to misquote Jesus, the stupid will always be with us. Change happens through peoples' hearts, not through the law.

Gestell
In the last paragraph of his post he defines liberal stupidity, arrogance and intent.

He writes that conservatives think they can demean people they "despise". His remedy is through criminal law.

In another words, disagree with him and face prosecution. The thought police, criminalization of anything but his way.

He must have been a speechwriter for Fidel Castro.

Brandon
So you found the site while you were searching for a site to help you pass your GED test?

Actually it is too funny sometimes. Guys like you provide amusement. Everyone gets a reminder of what a condescending elitist type thinks.

Excuse me, I have to go now, my religion and my guns are calling me.

reply to 1udagudguys
The amendment process certainly could be used for creating and implementing rights, but the question of their basis can still be asked. If the language of the Declaration and of the 9th Amendment is to be believed, there simply ARE "other" rights, as yet unidentified.

My point was that there is absolutely NO good reason to suppose, as many cosnervatives do, that unless some right is literally named in the Constitution, it does not exist. For example, a child has an absolute right to be supported, and neither neglected nor abused, by his or her parents. Find that in the Constitution. Of course, it's not there, but I think most of us believe there is some sort of right involved.

If we want to stick close to the ideas available to the Founders, there are a couple of ways to look at the question of identifying the "other" rights. One would be to argue that the rights "retained" by the people (the language of the 9th) are those recognized in the constitutions and laws of the states. Another source would be the tradition of common law, known to all the Founders in great detail. The fact of the matter is that the Founders weren't overly worried about coming up with exhaustive lists of rights, and they didn't put any such list in the Constitution. They employed rights every day that came from one or the other (or both) of the sources I mentioned.

Does anyone have a right NOT to be an object of hate and abuse because he or she is a gay or lesbian? Conservatives would probably say "no," arguing that there is a constitutionally protected right to insult and degrade those they despise. Ordinary criminal law would seem to be the place to look for protection in this area.

Liberals on rights
I'll claim here to speak for many liberals (although not all, obviously, to explain how we tend to understand "rights." A "right" is an enforceable claim. If I have a "right" to something, then my claim to it must be honored when I make the claim. So, if there is a "right" to vote, the opportunity to vote must be made available to me when I show up at the polliing place. No one can refuse to let me vote (unless I have been convicted of a crime and my right to vote legally taken away). Government must enforce the claim, if I'm otherwise qualified to vote, and properly registered.

If the owner of a restaurant refuses to seat me because I'm handicapped, he violates a right. Conservatives often defend the idea that the owner should simply be able to seat or refuse to seat anyone for any reason, including his own bias or ignorance. Liberals reject this argument.

Liberals differ on how closely any particular right has to be connected to the Constitution. This is why liberals so often referr to "human rights," rights we have siimply because of our humanity. Many conservatives find the concept of "human rights" unacceptable. For example, a woman has a human right not to be a sex slave; no constitutional language or argument is needed for this.


Gestell
You are correct that the Constitution includes non-enumerated rights. However, your thesis that they can be anything is incorrect. One's rights end where another's begin. That is when one must steal from another to gain a "right" it is not a right but a simple theft. Thus, the "right to go to college" at the expense of another is not a right at all.

Claiming the right to be "comfortable" is idiotic. If one is comfortable while taking the rights of others to discuss a matter denies the right not only of free speech but the opportunity, maybe a right, to as much information as possible.

As they grew I told my now adult daughters that the greatest gift I could give them was the gift of divine discontent. This has driven them to succeed and prosper, as I knew they could. Had I encouraged them to be "comfortable" I fear that they might have become couch potatoes or worse. They exercised their right to achieve whatever they had the talent and drive to achieve. My wife and I only gave them the tools. They are working on happiness.

Gestell...
I think the issue Adams was addressing here is that the current campaign has brought out a lot of discussion of things that might be nice to have, but labelled as 'rights.'

How do we know what they are, and who gets to figure that out? I thought that was what amending the Constitution was all about. And if not mandated at the Constitutional level, then let the states have their say.

I think there is a disconnect between the right and left on the definition of a 'right.' My working definition is something to which I am entitled. That implies, to me, that it should not be withheld from me. In that sense, I am largley responsible for providing so that I can enjoy those rights. If I am able to provide but unwilling, it is not the system that is denying me - I'm denying myself.

Are there folks who are incapable? Sure. Provision should be made for those people.

But making provision for the exceptions does not equate to defining a right for all, in my view.

The issue Adams won't discuss
Adams thinks that the only rights we have are those included in the Constitution, or at least he seems to recognize no other rights. This is actually a very unConstitutional position; I'll even go on to say it's an unAmerican position. The Founders did not claim to have written down all the rights human beings might have in what was, after all, not a philosophical investigation of rights but a document that set up the basis for a government.

Consider: In the Declaration of Independence, the famous inalienable rights "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are those rights specifically identified. The phrase is preceded by "among these," meaning, plainly, that the three rights do not exhaust the rights that all men have. No text of any Founder imposes a limitation of rights to just the three mentioned in the Declaration.

In fact this absence of limitation is included in the Bill of Rights, in the 9th Amendment: Here's the full text: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

As plainly as any conservative originalist could possibly want, the document says that the people have "other" rights. Well, what are they? What do they include? And, to get to the real question, how do we know what they are, and who gets to figure this out?

We liberals can easily argue that Americans have rights in addition to those mentioned in the Declaration, maybe even rights to some of the things a conservative like Adams doesn't want to consider.


Thank-You
I sure wouldn't mind having an extra vote. Bring along your constitution and show me where you have a Right to vote.
A loyal fan

For the attack dogs...
Ya know, I really enjoy when I read an article and then get to see comments that have something to do with the article.

If I may suggest, why don't the group of you who are focused more on insults and non-sequitors meet somewhere and have Will measure your manhood?

I wasn't really keeping count, but about half the posts on this seem to be the angry banter. Let's be adults, if possible.

Wow! What a Read!
Just wanted to throw something in here for thought.

Found this quote last night while surfing the net.

From F. Lee Bailey (I don't care what you think of him, just ponder this quote):

"Can any of you seriously say the Bill of Rights
could get through Congress today?
It wouldn't even get out of committee."


Bravo
We live in a country that focuses solely on rights or p[erceived rights and says very little about responsibility. There should be bipartisan respect for your example of rights using the Second Amendment. You have the right to bear arms, but you have a responsibility for the bullet that leaves that arm. We have to have both rights and responsibilities in ths country.

"Positive Rights"
Positive rights are easily distinguished from the rights guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. A so-called "positive right" can only be ensured by pointing a gun at the head of someone else. Which is to say that the only mechanism available to those who advocate positive rights is extortion. The justification for said extortion boils down to envy: "they're too rich", "they are just the winners of life's lottery", "they must have exploited us", ad nauseum.

Someone tell me why a social order based on the sin of envy should be promoted or tolerated. Don't blather about fairness, social justice or other flatulent catch phrases with no objective meaning. What makes anyone think that such a social order doesn't inevitably lead to a warlord's boot on the neck of every individual? Don't insult people's intelligence with utopian delusions of remaking human nature. That path led to ~100,000,000 dead in the 20th century alone, and the identity of the warlords involved is well-known: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and all the rest. Deal with reality, just this once.

Ayn Rand had it right - the advocates of collectivization are promoting a death cult.


Gruntz
You claim "To reclaim the rights we have lost or found endangered over much of the last 30 years or so, especially under the shameful regimes of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, "

Please elaborate as to which "rights" you've lost? If you are looking for shameful regimes, then I suggest those of Carter & Clinton. If you are concerned about losing rights, then look at the cities and states that are always trying to curb our 2nd Amendment rights, like say D.C. Everytime congress raises our taxes they take a little more of our property rights. If you are so concerned about your 1st Amendment rights, then why are libs for the "Fairness Doctrine" which simply uses gov't power to limit speech on the radio?

To: The Socialist's among us
We just won a fifty-year cold war against socialism. Reagan was brilliant enough to recognize that such a system would implode upon itself. Margaret Thatcher praised Reagan as having won the cold war without firing a shot.
The human spirit always seeks to have more than one presently has. This is the spark of innovation. Without such an incentive to do better, a society will stagnate; i.e.: The Scandinavian countries, Canada, and others. The only socialist countries to show progress are those who are allowing capitalism in some markets. Even the poor in our own country seek to better themselves by having the government forcefully take property from those who earned it and then redistribute it (hopefully) to them.
We soon will vote for a new president. McCain was never a consideration of mine, however; I will cast a vote for a continuation of the American way of life, not for one of Socialism.



I have a suggestion
For Hal, Overlard, Gruntz, Weenie Will, and the others who post here to amuse themselves by calling people names instead of debating ideas you all need to get some manners.

So, in the interest of fairness and diversity, please note that:

Will posts on the Huffington Post as Willfromca.

I encourage everyone here to register on the Huffington Post, and engage Will in his own backyard. (journalistically speaking of course, not literally).

Since the door swings both ways and debate is about both sides, let us all engage in a little free speech over at the Huff Post, Daily Kos, etc.

Thoughts?


Thank you for proving my point
Overlord29
Location: TX

Reply # 205
Date: Jul 8, 2008 - 12:02 AM EST

"I dont think that I have ever on this forum ...nor attacked anything but someone's ideas"


Nope, you never attack "anything but someone's ideas."


Overlord29
Location: TX

Reply # 212
Date: Jul 8, 2008 - 1:27 AM EST Jeff's Dad
your son is a liar. you are a liar.
-----------------------

Robert Location: TX
Reply # 186
Date: Jun 3, 2008 - 7:18 PM EST
MyOpine
Be sure and keep in good stock of grain alchohol and distilled water....

Robert
-----------------------------

Robert Location: TX
Reply # 192
Date: Jun 3, 2008 - 7:29 PM EST

"Why do you think Fox News has all its babes in "up to the crotch" skirts...?"

Robert
-------------------------
Robert Location: TX
Reply # 174
Date: Jun 6, 2008 - 10:39 PM EST
You just act old
Lumberjack7392 ...

and act as an extremist.
--------------------------
NOPE, not a "single" personal attack on anyone. More like 4 that I pasted here from my log of your insults of other posters.

And for the record, Wobbie, neither I nor Jeff give a rat'sass if you believe, or like, that he is a 2dLt. in the USMC.


OH REALLY NOW??
Overlord29
Location: TX

Reply # 205
Date: Jul 8, 2008 - 12:02 AM EST

"I dont think that I have ever on this forum ...nor attacked anything but someone's ideas"


THIS POST HAS TO BE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, THE BIGGEST WHOPPER YOU'VE EVER TOLD ON THIS FORUM!!


AND FOR THE RECORD, "CAPTAIN" WIMP, when someone here is challenged on a claim they make, THE ACCEPTED CUSTOM HERE ON TOWNHALL is for the challengee(that's YOUR sorry As$) to prove their claims are true.

INCLUDING MY SON, EVERYONE HERE EXCEPT YOU AND HAL, has proven that they are who and/or what they claim to be, when challenged.
IT'S FAR PAST your time to step up, or shut up.

IF YOU WANT TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT, by the other people here, EARN IT, like EVERYONE ELSE has done.

Until YOU actually grow a pair, AND PROVE THAT YOU ACTUALLY ARE who and what you say you are, AND start treating EVERYONE ELSE on this board WITH RESPECT, DON'T FREAKING WHINE about getting picked on.

I FOR ONE, DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT!!

Well,
I must be up early for my job interview, so I must hit the sack. Robert: FOANDESABATM.

Robert
I have never said that you live in CO, at least try to get your facts straight. You have never admitted that you don't you know the difference between the Constitition and Posse Comitatus. And you do attack People personally. When it it comes to admitting mistakes, you NEVER DO. So SFTU until you can figure what the facts are, Garritrooper.

Overlord29 scribbles:
Subject: Well Lumberjack that certianly
is your interpretation, but other then that...you have nothing to back that up. On the other hand you have called Hal a "drunk" which has no interpretation but being used as an insult, you have claimed that "I" am lying about things, but have offered no proof to back up your claim...

I dont think that I have ever on this forum or if I have it has been very very limited and I mostly have expressed regret...made fun of a persons "screen name" as you have...nor attacked anything but someone's ideas...

and isnt the back and forth of ideas the foundation of free speech?

Except you attack the person, and their beliefs, do not brook any disagreement with you, will not admit when you are wrong, and expect everyone to fall at your feet in awe.

It is the far right who is always trying to limit that.

why do you insult Hal all the time? why do you always say "you are bitter because you are passed over" (or something like that)
Is that all you can do?

I dont get it.

anyrate...

when you can prove that something I have said about who I am is false...TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT

You need to prove that they are true.

until then all we have is your opinions isnt it?

Robert

As do you.

Summers:
What part of Texas are you in?

Overlord29 scribbles:
Lumberjack where I am
being called "The Old Man" is a sign of respect...


you constantly insult people...as do most of the right wingers here.

Why? does it make you feel as though you are accomplishing something?

Robert

Except Overdork, you are NOT using it as a sign of respect but as an insult, and have used as an insult to me before. When it comes to insults, to find the biggest hurler of insults around here, look in a mirror.

Jo
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! I have not been on line all day long, just now and again. I missed that.

I think Hal deserted our discourse! Off to the showers for me.

Have a good evening!

Hal:
I have to say I have enjoyed this reading session very much. You are like a kid with a stick stirring up an ant hill and having a great time.

This one (about you) was my favorite:

"You are still a Retired, Passed Over, REMF, Sad Sack, Feather Merchant Desk Jockey, Garritrooper, Southern Hating Bigot, Murtha As$ Kissing, Liberal Moonbat, Alleged Oil Company VP, ENRON Board of Directors Member, Citer Of His Own Articles as Proof, Historically Challenged, Economically Ignorant,Little Man Who Could Walk Under a Door, A Self Important Pompous Windbag, Lard as$ed, Democratic Party Fanatic"

As you would say: LMAO.

Hal Donahue
Come out, come out, wherever you are. I don't have all night.

Was that Halidoofus talking?
Or did somebody just "blow sanitary" all over TH?

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Unqualified Students
"I’ve been teaching to the occasional unqualified black and the occasional unqualified athlete for years."

And, of course, to the unqualified white student too. I'm sure you left that out by mistake.

Hal Donahue
What a lot of projection by you!

Now, put on your strap and stop being obtuse. Give something other than a sophomoric spew. Go back 'twenty years'? You're spot on. Go back to the genesis of the problem and examine it as it progressed so that each person who has a controlling interest in it can be evaluated as to the correctness, or lack thereof, of their action. You can't unload all of your anger on just one actor in a chain of actors unless you lack any reasoning capacity.

It is inexplicable to me that you come to TH, I assume, daily to argue pointlessly. Tell me, Hal, what gratification do you get? You never seem to set forth an argument or an agenda, you seem satisfied with cutting and pasting every remark so that you can retort with a LOL or, more frequently, a LMAO. Come, now. Is that your very best? You throw out generalities as though you think they are sufficiently engaging. Is that your very best? Then, you claim that you contribute more than the rest of mankind and only your opinion, however starkly contrary to fact, is the only correct one. Is that your very best? Why not engage in specifics? Is that beyond your capacity? Are you incapable of debating an idea? How about an original thought, Hal? A well thought out, original thought that is developed so that it may be understood. Don't give links to sites; give an original, closely held belief. Then explain why you don't think that anyone else has the same right to hold a contrary belief.

For example, I do not believe that waterboarding is torture. You, John McCain, Barack Obama, and Mother Goose are entitled to think I am wrong. You have the right to hold your opinion, as do I. Reasoning can change opinions. Gross exaggerations from a faux clairvoyant do not.

Great article Mike!
Histerical, yet sad because it's the truth. And the limp wristed moonbats have their panties in a wad tonight! Socialism - a theory or system of social reform in which those that do not can leech off the backs of those who do. A system which has never succeeded, even though it's been tried repeatedly. A system which precludes communism and leaves all the power in the hands of a few. A system for people who need a crutch and cannot succeed in the real world.

A Townhall Poll
Who is a bigger coward? Robert The Coward or Hal Drunkahue?

Summers
",,, Stay on topic. We are not discussing military actions or contractors. We were discussing taxes that pay for far more than military."

Nope those contractors are on the welfare rolls as much the rural white guy in the trailer or the urban mom in the high rise

"..Bush the torturer? How did you get there? How does an accusation of being a torturer connect with home ownership?"


Just being specific about which Bush and FYI no accusations but fact by his own admission

".. If you want to discuss home ownership and the screw-ups in government intervention there, then you need to start with Carter who got into ensuring everyone could buy a house and started the whole thing off."

Typical LMAO that was nearly 20 years ago please try and at least recognise responsibility even if you cannot accept it


"...Then, there are Clinton's fingerprints all over the place, just like on White House interns and every other woman he came into contact with."

Jealous???? LOL

"If you can't afford it, you shouldn't buy it. If you do, don't look to me for sympathy."

I would never look at your for anything but I must ask do you consider yourself one of them Christians?

"...I am still active politically and in my community, Hal. Surely your thought processes go further than that. Or not. Maybe the latter explains your fallacious accusations so broadly cast. "

If you truly are then even I applaud you so seldom that is found usually just ineffective whining

Hal Donahue
You introduce nonsequiturs as if they were some damning response. Stay on topic. We are not discussing military actions or contractors. We were discussing taxes that pay for far more than military.

Bush the torturer? How did you get there? How does an accusation of being a torturer connect with home ownership? If you want to discuss home ownership and the screw-ups in government intervention there, then you need to start with Carter who got into ensuring everyone could buy a house and started the whole thing off. Then, there are Clinton's fingerprints all over the place, just like on White House interns and every other woman he came into contact with.

If you can't afford it, you shouldn't buy it. If you do, don't look to me for sympathy.

As to your vague and overbroad parting 'shot', I have done both, Hal. I am still active politically and in my community, Hal. Surely your thought processes go further than that. Or not. Maybe the latter explains your fallacious accusations so broadly cast.

Lumberjack7392
Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 9:32 PM EST Subject: LOL

I'd say almost never. All you do is echo DU< DailyKOs, DNC, HuffPuke talking points,

Only if they are mine dearie. And you????

Summers
"...I appreciate the tax reductions for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that more people paid taxes, actually paid taxes. I do have a problem paying for services for able-bodied people who have never paid taxes. And, I do have a problem bailing people out on their mortgages."

Really???? So you oppose the welfare queens Halliburton and Blackwater? Glad to hear it.

You mean when Bush the torturer said we created more homeowners than any other regime you raised the BS flag???? If so I apoligise if you went rah, rah then you are a taker

"You forever accuse others of not doing their part. What, precisely, do you consider any person of legal age in this country should be doing to satisfy you? "

Oh that is easy military or government service followed by building the business community of your home and getting involved in your local political environment - either D or R

Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Subject: Lumberjack7392
"...And you are a pro at stroking things. BTW, when was the last time you had an original thought? "

LMAO no ROTC here and thoughts? Almost always LOL

I'd say almost never. All you do is echo DU< DailyKOs, DNC, HuffPuke talking points,

Wait, does doofus have a RIGHT to a

seat belt for that bar stool?

Overlord29 scribbles:
Subject: Off the meds Lumberjack
all you can do is insult people....old man

LOL

Robert

And what do you call that, Ovderdork

Lumberjack: Please, be nice to halDoofus

He's taken way too many headers off his bar stool, and has sustained way too many concussions. Brain impaired, don't ya know?

What we're trying to figure out at this point, is exactly how he sits on the bar stool at all. Seems he's laughed his "LHAO" so much....

Lumberjack7392
"...And you are a pro at stroking things. BTW, when was the last time you had an original thought? "

LMAO no ROTC here and thoughts? Almost always LOL

Hal Donahue
Why moan and groan about taxes? Like death, they are a certainty in life. I pay mine without complaining that I didn't qualify for a 'tax incentive'.

I appreciate the tax reductions for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that more people paid taxes, actually paid taxes. I do have a problem paying for services for able-bodied people who have never paid taxes. And, I do have a problem bailing people out on their mortgages.

You forever accuse others of not doing their part. What, precisely, do you consider any person of legal age in this country should be doing to satisfy you?

Hal Doofus Scribbles:
The Blackbird
"A former poster by the name of willibeax has volunteered for the hypnosis study. He just lurks on the threads now."

Willi got tossed???? WOW and they still let lumber wander around....

They let you babble on, and toss out insults at will.

Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Subject: Wrat Wrangler
"Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 7:00 PM EST Re: Mustangs?
Does a stint at OCS following a mediocre career in ROTC count one as a "mustang" to you guys?
...-Ray NRA Life Member "

LMAO not quite. Are you a Vet? So often NRA types just sit at home slowly stroking their weapons....
LMAO

And you are a pro at stroking things. BTW, when was the last time you had an original thought?

The Blackbird
"A former poster by the name of willibeax has volunteered for the hypnosis study. He just lurks on the threads now."

Willi got tossed???? WOW and they still let lumber wander around....

Wrat Wrangler
"Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 7:00 PM EST Re: Mustangs?
Does a stint at OCS following a mediocre career in ROTC count one as a "mustang" to you guys?
...-Ray NRA Life Member "

LMAO not quite. Are you a Vet? So often NRA types just sit at home slowly stroking their weapons....
LMAO

CR-Hemorrhoid Study
The AMA has received the names of some more volunteers for the Cranial Rectlitis- Hemorrhoid study. The following have graciously volunteered:
Van, Will and Sophie. A former poster by the name of willibeax has volunteered for the hypnosis study. He just lurks on the threads now. He sent me an e-mail saying his heart was broken when his suppressed desire wouldn't elope with him. Life is tough. :-(

Outryder's educated idiots
"Look at all the educated idiots we have running around."

Mike Adams went to college.

Melinda
Given your attitude about Dr. Adams, I suspect the only friend you have is the one the one you see in a mirror, and even that's a little iffy.

Hal:
You are not a mustang, just the south end of a north bound horse.

Summers/CKHustler

"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 5:48 PM EST CKHustler
One fallacy in Hal's thinking is that, somehow, you used up the largesse of public schools and highways and now you are 'not giving anything back'. Public schools and highways are not largesse, they are part of the infrastructure needed in any country that has hopes to be something other than a third world country. "

WOW perfect you nailed it but be careful many here think they are handouts and frills they do not have to provide - you are in RINO territory

"Furthermore, THIS 'LARGESSE' IS FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS PAID AT THE TIME, JUST AS YOU PAY TAX DOLLARS TODAY. "

You bet they were and you don't pay them or scream too much. I wonder why. I owe my community and that is why I came back and that is why I work now to give something back

"...More children, more workers, more taxpayers, more taxes, better 'infrastructure'. "

Higher earning happy citizens equal better life for all
It is only money folks admittedly said by one who has a bit,,,

For Republicans, the Senate outlook is b

How bad is it?

LATIMES-Mississippi, one of the nation’s most conservative states, has not elected a Democratic senator in a quarter-century. It has voted for Republican presidential candidates in the last seven elections.

But this year, there is a real chance that the state will send a Democrat to the Senate.

That prospect is a window onto a remarkable political trend that has been eclipsed by the fireworks surrounding the 2008 presidential contest: Democrats are running strong Senate campaigns in states such as Mississippi, Alaska and North Carolina that Republicans have long taken for granted.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/for-republicans-th e-senate-outlook-is-bad

More manufactured rights
Oh, but it's even worse now. The liberals used to clamor for the right to health care. Now, they clamor for the right to health INSURANCE. The right of the parasite to leech off the medical system is no longer enough for them. Now, they want respectability to go with it; they want the appearance of self-sufficiency as they take the unearned.

Wrat Wrangler writes:
Re: Mustangs?
Does a stint at OCS following a mediocre career in ROTC count one as a "mustang" to you guys?
Rats like his 5" and I prefer a MK-48 ADCAP. Chacon a son gout!

No, by definition a mustang is a former enlisted.

Re: Mustangs?
Does a stint at OCS following a mediocre career in ROTC count one as a "mustang" to you guys?
Rats like his 5" and I prefer a MK-48 ADCAP. Chacon a son gout!

-Ray
NRA Life Member

I know a fed who favors a .357 Python.
He can pump all 6 into a circle the size of a tennis ball from 15 yard (further than the average gunfight in the real world) so fast it almost sounds like full auto.

If it ain't broke and it works for you USE IT!

-Ray
NRA Life Member

CKHustler
One fallacy in Hal's thinking is that, somehow, you used up the largesse of public schools and highways and now you are 'not giving anything back'. Public schools and highways are not largesse, they are part of the infrastructure needed in any country that has hopes to be something other than a third world country. Furthermore, THIS 'LARGESSE' IS FUNDED BY TAX DOLLARS PAID AT THE TIME, JUST AS YOU PAY TAX DOLLARS TODAY. They have never been a 'free gift'. What does Hal want, child labor? Then, his Party should be against abortions, including late term abortions. More children, more workers, more taxpayers, more taxes, better 'infrastructure'.

hal, where is he runnin?
I asked about why he wanted healthcare if he didn't think socialist healthcare was better, and he ran.

I asked what socialism is, if universal healthcare is not it, he ran...

Hal...where are you runnin?

Good song btw. Where are we runnin?

Vic
Yea, but thats next! dum dum DUMMMMM!!!

If they can infringe on each part separately, then they can get the whole eventually. So really, if they do that, this ruling meant nothing.

Unlimited rights
The Ninth Amendment states, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

A problem occurs when a large group of Americans maintain that this broad statement of rights includes the right for them to use the force of the imperial government to get into my wallet and to take away some of my rights.

CKHustler
Revolvers

Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Lumberjack7392
YAWN

Just about what I would expect from you, yhou bigot.

Lumberjack7392
YAWN

Hal
If that isn't socialism, what is?

You are taking from one to give to another. That is basically the definition of it!

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

so how is it not socialism?

Have you ever heard that you make your own luck? Work hard and make smart decisions and you will succeed. You always assume you are better than others and they can't make it. I suppose that is your superiority complex showing again.

CKHustler
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 4:22 PM EST Subject: Vic
on semi-auto guns? haha!! so are they going to piece together the same law using certain types? Like, we ban all automatic guns, and all semi-auto guns. Whats left for handguns? lol

That amendment will spark a civil war someday "

You best hope not......

Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Lumberjack7392
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 3:52 PM EST Subject: Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Subject: ca
"...What does the skin tone of young Muslims have to do with clean air? Actually, what do young Muslims in general have to do with wanting to breathe clean air and why would they be against it? Am I not understanding a joke?"

Not a joke plain prejudice "

"When it comes to prejudice, you have absolutely no room to talk given your ant-Southern hatred and bigotry. So, SFTU "

LMAO

Hal, you'd have to laugh for many millenia to laugh your amazingly large lard as$ off. And you are a bigot.

And your response is about what I would have expected, a total non-sequiter.

CKHustler/ AliveInHim
"Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 4:03 PM EST Subject: Hal

"...Sure you soaked up society's largess and now that payback time is here you want to skip out on your debts"
--------

"You call that an answer? haha!!

So basically here is what Hal just said."

No what I said above is what I said

"...You were smart in making life decisions, and now you will be penalized for that. "

Smart or lucky? Any successful person I know usually admits that luck had a lot to do with it. and the investment your community made for you like roads schools public safety

"...This person over here was busy drinking himself into poverty while you worked hard, but he deserves the same healthcare as you do! "

LMAO what about the guy who got cancer at 20 couldn't get to school struggled and still can barely make it? What about that solid steady guy who is a little "slow" will never get much above minimum wage? You always go to the extremes life seldom is so clear cut

"hahaha!!! socialism at its best! "
that isn't socialism at all

Vic
on semi-auto guns? haha!! so are they going to piece together the same law using certain types? Like, we ban all automatic guns, and all semi-auto guns. Whats left for handguns? lol

That amendment will spark a civil war someday

Lumberjack7392
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 3:52 PM EST Subject: Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Subject: ca
"...What does the skin tone of young Muslims have to do with clean air? Actually, what do young Muslims in general have to do with wanting to breathe clean air and why would they be against it? Am I not understanding a joke?"

Not a joke plain prejudice "

"When it comes to prejudice, you have absolutely no room to talk given your ant-Southern hatred and bigotry. So, SFTU "

LMAO

Vic writes:
More on the 2nd Amendment "right"
that that ruling everyone loved so much said can be "regulated".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377203,00.html

DC now is contemplating coninuing the ban on semi-auto pistols because the SCOTUS said certain types of firearms could be banned.

Infringment will and is occurring where it stated simply "no infringment" is allowed.

I am sure that the criminal classes of DC, will follow the ban on semiautomatic pistols.



Rights and What is "Fair"
I have heard a lot of politicians on both sides (but mostly on the Left) talk about "fair" prices for this and that. Currently the most popular fair issues are fair prices for gasoline and fair prices for health care. In these statements, the pols are always talking about what is "fair" to the consumer. I cannot remember, and I challenge anyone to remember any time, ever, when the phrase "fair price" applied to the producer of the goods or service in question. Never happens. QED TANSTAAFL

More on the 2nd Amendment "right"
that that ruling everyone loved so much said can be "regulated".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377203,00.html

DC now is contemplating coninuing the ban on semi-auto pistols because the SCOTUS said certain types of firearms could be banned.

Infringment will and is occurring where it stated simply "no infringment" is allowed.

Hal
AliveInHim
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 2:31 PM EST HalD
What moral right do you claim, that you believe that you or others are entitled to a portion of someone else's earnings? What or who is your ultimate authority for such a belief?"

Sure you soaked up society's largess and now that payback time is here you want to skip out on your debts
--------

You call that an answer? haha!!

So basically here is what Hal just said.

You were smart in making life decisions, and now you will be penalized for that. This person over here was busy drinking himself into poverty while you worked hard, but he deserves the same healthcare as you do!

hahaha!!! socialism at its best!

Blackbird
Honey Chile, top of the day to you!

CKHustler writes:
Hal
Then what are you claiming of socialistic healthcare? It sounds like you REALLY want it for some unknown reason. If your not claiming its better, then why do you want it?

Because like any Dumbbuttcrap, he wants the government to control another aspect of our lives.

Hal Donahue
Some Muslims, i.e. Albanians, are caucasian. Are you sterotyping all Muslims, Hal?


Charles
"Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 2:49 PM EST Hal
I don't include the military in the category of "government employees", by which I mean civil service types."

"Police and fire personnel are not as bad in terms of effort, but compete with the rest of the slugs when it comes to milking the system for unjustified overtime, excessive benefits, bogus disability claims, etc. Retirement at half pay after 20 years, regardless of age, is a ridiculous concept."

OH dear now I understand you are jealous LMAO
What do you do in life?

"Most other government employees are hacks who couldn't cut it in private industry."

Oh the government wouldn't hire you huh?

"..In emergency rooms, those who can't pay should wait their turn behind those who can, unless their injuries are life-threatening. There is no right to medical care."

How do I know that YOU can pay??? The biggest deadbeats I see are folks like you that get wiped out completely because of poor or no insurance

How do I know they are illegal aliens? If they only speak Spanish and are not from Puerto Rico, the probability is high that they are here illegally. "

That isn't true at all at least not where I live in the NE PA

"The illegals here are either drug dealers or mushroom workers. The drug dealers came from New York, where they were driven out by Rudy Guiliani. The mushroom workers are hardly needed (the world can survive withouit edible mushrooms)."

Why don't you get out and clean up the mess are you a typical conservative complainer not a doer?

Hal Doofus Scribbles:
Subject: ca
"...What does the skin tone of young Muslims have to do with clean air? Actually, what do young Muslims in general have to do with wanting to breathe clean air and why would they be against it? Am I not understanding a joke?"

Not a joke plain prejudice

When it comes to prejudice, you have absolutely no room to talk given your ant-Southern hatred and bigotry. So, SFTU

AliveInHim
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 2:31 PM EST HalD
What moral right do you claim, that you believe that you or others are entitled to a portion of someone else's earnings? What or who is your ultimate authority for such a belief?"

Sure you soaked up society's largess and now that payback time is here you want to skip out on your debts

"Just askin'. "
Just answering

ca
"...What does the skin tone of young Muslims have to do with clean air? Actually, what do young Muslims in general have to do with wanting to breathe clean air and why would they be against it? Am I not understanding a joke?"

Not a joke plain prejudice

Rondak: Sufferage
Rondak:

Not being familiar with the incident in question, I don't want to comment on it. Its entirely possible that those senators were deprived of their right to be seated, or that those states were not yet in compliance with the terms of the surrender, and were therefore NOT seated.

But no one would claim that the US Government has been run without mistakes or usupations of power. People are involved and therefore such things are GOING to happen, even with well-meaning people in office.

Obama proposes that Judges have a duty to decide what the Laws SHOULD be, and will appoint judges who feel empowered to do so by policy. This is dangerous to liberty and breaks the very principles of our government. It is one thing with the princples of our government are broken by a well intentioned but misguided act, worse when done deliberately, and even worse when the breaking of such principles is advocated as policy.



The Blackbird

"...whistling our of your backside as usual when you say conservatives feel that our military, police, fire, etc. are worthless slugs. "

Judge them by their actions not their words


Ron
Subject: ca #115
When I read that post, I had the impression that the muslims are considered the "unwashed" with the resulting smell.
--------------------------

Thanks Ron. I thought that was what Adams was implying. That still doesn't explain the word "swarthy" in his phrasing, unless he just doesn't know the meaning of that word. Also, I was unaware that young Muslim men smell particularly bad, let alone bad enough to cause air pollution. Of course, it comes one paragraph after Adams uses only "unqualified black" students and "unqualified athletes" as his examples for people that aren't necessarily college material so it's possibly just another not-so-subtle racial message.

Will and Gruntz
Will, are you still trying to justify your lifestyle and thrash Dr. Adams with your swishy stick? It's like this ... shut up.

Gruntz, I see someone else pointed out the fact you are somehow losing yourself in your mumbling. About the only thing in your ramblings that made anything close to sense was saying the 14th amendment addresses "rights" and that it does. It simply says we have equal protection under the law. That means we cannot be treated differently for the same outcome, poitive or negative.

The 9th amendment is harder. Our founders had difficulty writing this one. Essentially a faction did not want to have a limit on themselves or prosperity because they did not list some "right." Another faction simply wanted to write a provision against extending the power of the Congress (thereby reducing individual) and not write some "vague" protection of "rights" not listed therein. As I say it is too complicated. In the end the 9th is farly worthless. Some libertarians want to point the 9th to "natural rights" and we can see how difficult that mouthful of mush can be. I certainly believe the 9th was added to pacify the angst between the federalists and the confederalists. I like the text Madison drafted better than what became the 9th. He wrote, "The exceptions, here or elsewhere in the constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people, or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution." Made more sense.

Currently the 9th is viewed as an amendment that limits the reach of the federal government. That is perhaps the better way to interpret it.

Hal re:2:57 post
For once you are correct about something: every doctor knows other doctors that essentially suck. Sometimes, most of the time, it is a difference in philosophy but all too often it is sheer incompetence. The establishment is terrified to take these docs to task because it will stir up a huge hornet's nest plus they are scared that they might be next. One may say the same about lawyers, architects, barbers etc. It is disingenuous to speak about the tort problem as if you know something about it; loser pays and medical review are in place in several states and have worked dramatically to lower the volume and monetary totals of med malpractice claims. It is not complex- sue a doctor and lose and you pay his/her lawyer fees. That way, the doctor does not win the case only to see their malpractice fees go up anyway.

Rights Are Not Created By Constitution
When you indicate that any asserted right must be found in the Constitution, you do a disservice to the true meaning of the American Revolution - that our rights are not derived from any government, but from our Creator. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men . . . are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." The miracle of our system is that "We the people" agreed to relinquish a few rights ("the consent of the governed") to our government for the good of the whole. The framers of our Constituition specified the limited power of our government, and then, bowing to those who felt it did not do enough to protect the rights given to us by our Creator, subsequently drafted amendments to specify which rights are so important to us that the governmant cannot, under any circumstance, deny us those rights. This Bill of Rights also stipulates that the enumeration of those most important rights was not meant to deny the existence of others.

That being said, one cannot create rights simply because one thinks they are good. One cannot create a right to free medical care. One might assert that society has a moral obligation to provide free medical care, but a moral obligation does not create a right. One might argue that society would be better off economically and socially if all citizens were better educated through free college educations, but that does not create a right. Free medical care and free college educations means free for some at the expense of depriving others of their property (money) to pay for it. Therefore free medical care and free education cannot be a right, because it deprives others of their most fundamental right to property. The rights to life, liberty and property are considered the top three most important rights, in that order, and are unassailable.

hull down

hull down? Means over the horizon.


OBTW, Hul, 100 % of service people who have served honorably, are disgusted with you. Why? Look in the mirror.

Hul: I only see slime.

Rest of the World: Exactly.

OK, maybe I have been too harsh with such a floating chunk of feces. Nope, I am dead on target.

Shouldn't you check yourself into GITMO? You are an enema to this great country.

May rats chew off your appendages, and mice crawl up your nether regions,



Oh, and just to cheer you up, 99% of the other posters on this site have 20 times or more than your accomplishments.

I know you enjoy that!


What does your pool smell like?




Max Power
Did you see where Hal Drunkahue found YET ANOTHER Ugly Shrill Woman to order him around? Michelle Obama! LMAO!

Hal Drunkahue
Location: Corner Bar, Scranton, PA

HIC! LMAO! I’ll bet you Ignorant, Gun Lovin, Bible Thumpin, Conservatives had lots of fun over The 4th of July. What VILE Racists you all are, to celebrate a country built by Slavery. To celebrate a country where ILLEGAL residents are denied FREE HEATLH CARE. HIC! LMAO! You Rural, Racist, Southern, White, Conservatives PAY FOR YOUR OWN Healthcare and think you are special. What about The Drug Dealers and/or Addicts in places like Boston, LA, Baltimore and Scranton, PA, The Irritable Bowel of Pennsylvania? HIC! LMAO! I suppose you think they should pay for their own insurance too. NEVER MIND that the money they spend on crack could be used to buy insurance. You Racist Animals think ILLEGALS should have to pay for Health Insurance too. HIC! LMAO! NEVER MIND that they are BREAKING THE LAW by living in America. You Racists think they should all be locked up! HIC! LMAO! A Liberal, FDR for example, WOULD NEVER use profiling to incarcerate a specific ethnic gro…er…NEVER MIND! I REFUSE to waste anymore time on you Idiots. I have to go file a Police Report, some lowlife stole The Cork out of my supper! HIC! LMAO!

Hal
You grossly underestimate technology. There are many ways to identify a person and we are rapidly finding new cheap ways to do it.

If you are fooling yourself that the government can give us great healthcare, I suggest you run over to Burts column about our education system and what they did with that. The government cannot be trusted to handle our healthcare. They are increasingly inefficient and wasteful.

Theoretically universal healthcare should work, as should socialism. The thing neither accounts for is human nature. That is the reason socialism will never work as well as capitalism. Human nature does not allow it to work.

Oh Please Hal...
"Illegals are part of the problem but they work (and I must add you Republicans allowed it by not enforcing the rules)."

Simply not true...this was a failure on both sides of the aisle. But leave it to you to give democrats a pass...

"I can see it now; your wife runs you to the ER in the middle of the nite with a cardiac problem and you are refused service because no ID"

This is simply left-wing hysterical rhetoric. Thanks for proving that extremes are seldom right.

Ron
That was written tongue-in-cheek. I am still dealing with my student loans from school and will be paying that "second mortgage" until about the time I retire.

Oh Boy...
Hal blurts out that extremes are seldom right.

Seeing as how he's a Left Wing Extremist, I would have to agree...

Hul d, yer present...

Scranton LA meeting... [ LA = Liars Anonymous ]

hi, my name is hul. hul donkeyhoo

"Hi, Hul "

yes i am a ly-aholic.

i started this meny yers ago even before i bribed my way into the militarry, by pretending to be a human.

i kwickly lerned haow to braun-nose, suckup, and pander. i also lerned parasitic toadyism, i foun a leeder an i grabbed his butte, surgically implanted my lips, an rose to the rank of lt. col., REMF. (hic) LMAO (hic)

REMF is a VERY elite groop of about 1 in 10,000 to 20,000 in the miltery, this is out uv sum 3 to 4 millions of truups. (I reely wuzzent un ov em cause i hate therm)

REMF; it is very hard to get into, the vast majority cennut do it because thay hev weak stomachs.

My best move, en the one thet mad me lt. col, was i reed a r-tickle in new jerk times, thet say,
only 1 in 10,000 rounds of ammo ecturly disable enema.

then troops rekwest 10,000,000, yes 10 million rouns! ken yu bereve thet? (hic) LMAO


LMAO, so i sent the troopz 1000 roundz with a note. when you use the effectively, i will send yu anuther 1000 rounds. LMAO (hic)

Quit wasting ammo !!!


Orderly, get in here! We're going to the club, AND YOU ARE BUYING, or you get a poor evaluation!

Now dimmit, now!

Not sure when mi downfall wuz... mebe it was hittin un mi orderly. Or maybe it wuz hinnit on the bartender. (hic) LMAO (hic)



KER THUUMMPP ! OH KRUD .
LMAO
i jerst fall off the barstool (hic) LMAO (hic-hic)

Anne, yor a jrek en yu caused this. i hat yu !!!! Makin foon uv mi concussions, i no you got this frum thet jerk the rat!

Oh crud, now i stitter when i hic.~ (hic-hic) LMAO!

OBTW, LMAO means 'Lying My Arse Off" LMAO (hic-hic)


CKHustler
"..Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 2:07 PM EST Hal
This is not to say that I think our healthcare system is going well. Illegals are a main part of the problem. They should be refused all care. They came into our country illegally and should not reap our rewards. Its part of breaking the law."

Well that is only in areas the hardest hit areas are rural I think I saw. Low income low insurance with urban areas next. Illegals are part of the problem but they work (and I must add you Republicans allowed it by not enforcing the rules). Are you saying that being an illegal should carry a death sentence in a medical emergency? Worse do we go no ID no service? I can see it now; your wife runs you to the ER in the middle of the nite with a cardiac problem and you are refused service because no ID

"..Lawsuits are another major part of the problem. Anytime the prosecutor loses he should have to pay the defenders lawyer costs. That would at least partly solve the problem. "

See and maybe CVN can jump in here Drs do not enforce standards every doc I know knows someone they would not send an enemy to see. Maintain standards and then let's talk

"Frivolous lawsuits should be thrown out much more often as well."

That appears to be hjappening

"Just those two problems together would save the American people millions. "

that may be right if handled properly but it is a multiple BILLION problem

ca #115
When I read that post, I had the impression that the muslims are considered the "unwashed" with the resulting smell.

BlackBird-LJ7392
While I was on vacation I heard Weasely Clark made some disparaging remarks about John McCain. What did Hal Drunkahue, The Defender of Veterans, have to say about that? The Drunk says only Conservatives denigrate Veterans. What does that make Jerk Murtha, Weasely Clark and John Kerry?

MOBY !

Please, all. envision a large open septic pit, full of feces. Now envision hul donkyhoo doing the backstroke with a large container of cheap Vodka, resting on his belly. You might think it is Moby, but it is none other than our resident hul, in his natural envirionment,

This REMF is not fit to lick the boots of a real serviceman or woman. And, given his environment who would want that.

Glad you asked, Jean Kerry, that is who. Another? John Murtha. Another? Botox Pealousy. Another? Oslammayomama Oblameya.

Hey hul, What does that stuff taste like. I do not really want to know, I just enjoy poking iron rods through your wothless hulk.

OBTW, yer fren, wobbie says, "i luv yu bro, come, play wit mi soon."






Hal
I don't include the military in the category of "government employees", by which I mean civil service types.

Police and fire personnel are not as bad in terms of effort, but compete with the rest of the slugs when it comes to milking the system for unjustified overtime, excessive benefits, bogus disability claims, etc. Retirement at half pay after 20 years, regardless of age, is a ridiculous concept.

Most other government employees are hacks who couldn't cut it in private industry.

In emergency rooms, those who can't pay should wait their turn behind those who can, unless their injuries are life-threatening. There is no right to medical care.

How do I know they are illegal aliens? If they only speak Spanish and are not from Puerto Rico, the probability is high that they are here illegally. Most of the Hispanic population here is from Mexico and the Dominican Republic, mostly illegal. Either way, if they can't pay, go to the end of the line (or go home where I'm sure the medical care is much better).

The illegals here are either drug dealers or mushroom workers. The drug dealers came from New York, where they were driven out by Rudy Guiliani. The mushroom workers are hardly needed (the world can survive withouit edible mushrooms).

CVN65 #73
You didn't mention the hundreds of thousands of debt they incur to go to medical school, and the additional hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt they incur to get all the equipment they need for their practices. They have to pay all this debt before they can think about buying that small house you mentioned. Let's not forget the malpractice insurance they have to buy for all the bs lawsuits they face for something that was not their fault.
BTW our family doctor is a woman from South Korea and she is excellent.

The Blackbird & Lumberjack
Personally, I think the only reason Hal made LTC was that his CO was embarrassed to have a middle-aged junior officer in his command.

Mr Donahue! From what
I read from your comments during the short period time I've visited TH, you sir, if you are a Mustang, are the exception to the rule that Mustangs are outstanding officers. No wonder you were forced to retire rather than being RIFFED back to your permanent enlisted rank. That's what happens to walkin' eagles.

Hal:
You are still a Retired, Passed Over, REMF, Sad Sack, Feather Merchant Desk Jockey, Garritrooper, Southern Hating Bigot, Murtha As$ Kissing, Liberal Moonbat, Alleged Oil Company VP, ENRON Board of Directors Member, Citer Of His Own Articles as Proof, Historically Challenged, Economically Ignorant,Little Man Who Could Walk Under a Door, A Self Important Pompous Windbag, Lard as$ed, Democratic Party Fanatic

Even The Best systems Have Losers..

You are a loser. You always will be. Loser !

Hal Donahue
Location: PA

Reply # 1
Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 2:17 PM EST Ratas y Ratones
"...Mustangs, from my readings, have to hold themselves to much higher standards than officers to even be considered as officers. This Does not, in any way denigrate our excellent Officer Corps. ( OK, hul donkyhoo is an exception )."

LMAO guess who is a mustang LOL
Flag as Offensive... No I will not flag you as offensive because I want everyone to see how stupid and worthless you are,

Loser.

A present, soon... :-)

HalD
What moral right do you claim, that you believe that you or others are entitled to a portion of someone else's earnings? What or who is your ultimate authority for such a belief?

Just askin'.

serious question
"If everyone starts to enforce his right to breathe clean air in the presence of swarthy young Muslims, Obama might lose an important part of his electoral base."

What does the skin tone of young Muslims have to do with clean air? Actually, what do young Muslims in general have to do with wanting to breathe clean air and why would they be against it? Am I not understanding a joke?

Mr. O'Donahue! You are
whistling our of your backside as usual when you say conservatives feel that our military, police, fire, etc. are worthless slugs. No way Jose. More problems with your hemorrhoids?
Oh by the way I recently learned from anonymous sources that The American Medical Association is planning a study on the effects of Cranial Rectilitus (CR) and hemorrhoids on the thought processes and being able to express one’s self coherently without obfuscating. They will pay $1000.00 to each candidate and already have several volunteers who suffer from CR. Most notable are yourself, MDoggg, Perry Winkle, MRC2, Taft, and Wobbie. Several more are needed to get accurate results. They are also planning a companion study using hypnosis on other volunteers to see if CR can induced with hemorrhoids to follow. This is the first study of its kind and the results will be published in the New England Journal of Medicine in their Fall report.

PS: Several politicians who are known to suffer from CR were invited but they declined to participate citing conflict of interest.

Summers
"...Democrats want to insure cradle to grave care for all. Is the purpose of the Democrat support for late term abortions to limit the number of people who get to the cradle? "

Do they???? And you folks claim every sperm is sacred geesh extremes are seldom right

Ratas y Ratones
"...Mustangs, from my readings, have to hold themselves to much higher standards than officers to even be considered as officers. This Does not, in any way denigrate our excellent Officer Corps. ( OK, hul donkyhoo is an exception )."

LMAO guess who is a mustang LOL

Charles
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 1:22 PM EST CVN65
Berks County, still mostly a beautiful suburban and semi-rural area, but with a festering sore (City of Reading) at its center....Medical care is a significant issue."

So finally you see why what we have must be repaired. You are not an island you are part of a society. Healthcare needs fixing

" If someone has a medical emergency requiring emergency room care, even if fully insured, one must wait in line behind a mob of illegal aliens who use the emergency room as their family doctor, with the taxpayer and insurance customer paying."

Bush the torturer told them to go there or did you miss that??? How do you know they are illegals by the way?

some form of universal coverage would eliminate it

Hal
This is not to say that I think our healthcare system is going well. Illegals are a main part of the problem. They should be refused all care. They came into our country illegally and should not reap our rewards. Its part of breaking the law.

Lawsuits are another major part of the problem. Anytime the prosecutor loses he should have to pay the defenders lawyer costs. That would at least partly solve the problem. Frivolous lawsuits should be thrown out much more often as well.

Just those two problems together would save the American people millions.

Charles
"...Government employees at every level are worthless slugs, and doctors under any universal health care system would be virtual government employees."

I know that is how conservatives really feel about the military, police, fire etc but I seldom see a conservative say it out loud thank you for being honest

"If the liberals can no longer blame private insurance companies, they will neeed to blame the doctors for costs and cut their salaries accordingly. This will drive out all but the incompetents. "

It really depends on how you set it up bottom line system broken and it is destroying our declining businesses

Hal
Then what are you claiming of socialistic healthcare? It sounds like you REALLY want it for some unknown reason. If your not claiming its better, then why do you want it?

CVN65/CKHustler
"...Following an idea to it's logical outcome is anathema to the left; they are only interested in intentions, not the actual results. They don't care about the unintended consequences, they will just find a scapegoat like "Big Medicine" or "Big Nursing" and, with the help of the MSM, put the blame on them. Try to woo Hal with catchphrases and buzzwords. I suggest "If you like Osama, Vote for Obama" :)"

I guess you are indeed part of the problem if you cannot notice how sick medicine is...

Doc and Doc... Sorry if double posts...
TH screwing up still...


AMEN! CVN65, Doc.

Your previous: conservs will see the spoof, libtards will think you are one of them. I know better!

My son got his Medical training in the Army, and now works as a P.A. in Georgia.

He makes more money than I do as an ex-college Professor, and working Engineer. I shout HOORAYYY ! Yes, I believe his way was harder than mine.

He did it the HARD WAY, Mustang! Raw Boot to Captain, and retired after 23 1/2 years active duty. Saw action in Gulf I, Bosnia, and Gulf II. Obtained his College Degrees the Hard way. A little bit at a time.

Mustangs, from my readings, have to hold themselves to much higher standards than officers to even be considered as officers. This Does not, in any way denigrate our excellent Officer Corps. ( OK, hul donkyhoo is an exception ).

I myself, worked my way through college, while working full time, and supporting 7 people. I have zero sympathy for those who sit on their hal donkyhoo, and expect others to take care of them.


"Eternal Father, Strong To Save, whose arm doth bind the restless wave..."


Rats
(and mice)
USN 1960-1966 FTG2, TinCan Sailor, WestPac, DESRON9


CKHustler
".. Why is that, especially if, as Hal claims, socialistic healthcare is soo much better. "

Hal does not claim that

Hal
If socialistic medical care is SO superior, why did Fidel Castro come to America for treatment? I mean, he would have gotten the best doctors in Cuba, yet he thought he would be better here? Why is that, especially if, as you claims, socialistic healthcare is soo much better?

Summers
"Democrats want to insure cradle to grave care for all. Is the purpose of the Democrat support for late term abortions to limit the number of people who get to the cradle?"

What a truly excellent post....

Charles
" Subject: Hal
I don't know about you, but in Pennsylvania everyone is required to go to the motor vehicle office to have a photograph taken, even after the license id renewed online. So are are either lying or not from Pennsylvania."

Photo card was five minutes too

"How can I judge medical care? I judge the quality of medical care by the results."

You could be inn trouble then ignorance is not bliss

"I would prefer a white male American born and trained doctor. Guess I'm just prejudiced."

Your call I just want the best available
.

9th amendment...
I know others brought it up, but this article (trying to be funny I know) seems to have forgot that the 9th amendment exists. Just because something is not in the constitution doesn't make it not a right...

Posted or Not? Doc and Doc...
CVN65
Location: PA

Reply # 16
Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 12:48 PM EST Subject: Up All Night Doc
How dare you expect to make a profit on the misery of others! They really, really need the care, so they should get it, free of charge, if necessary. We will let you keep enough money to have a modest home and pay off your massive student loans. Do not expect to live as well as a lawyer, banker or lobbyist, though. You see, we do not care if you studied in college while others partied, we do not care that you gave up most of your youth and energy to pursue your profession, we do not care about the holidays, school events or kids' brithdays that you have missed to take care of us, all we see is that you make too much money and we aim to end that. WE can, and will, demand that you work for Big Brother, at our fee schedule, on our time demands and still maintain private malprctice insurance so that you can be sued but WE can not. We also will not consider tort reform or a "loser pays" system so that our constituents can feel free to sue you at any time for any reason. Now get back to work, we need the tax dollars from you rich guys, you greedy, heartless bastreds.

CVN65
"..Hal, just how do you think Free Health Care for All will end up? Did you consider all of the docs that will retire a few years earlier than they had planned?"

No one wants free healthcare least of all me. Do you enjoy workijng more and more hours for less and less pay all the while watching your quality of life drain away. If you do not think healthcare in the US is briken than you are almost certainly part of the problem

"Or all of those that choose another profession rather than be a goverment slave? "

That is how capitalism works. Are you not now a slave to the insurance companies now? every get tired of begging?

"Unlike you, I have experience providing healthcare in the military, VA, public health and private settings. Guess which types are the least productive and least cost-effective? Vets only go to the VA because it is free; if they could go elsewhere, they would."

LOL you are so wrong. Every day I see vets refusing to go to the VA because it is too far away.

"..When I was in Boston, the wait time to see a VA dentist was two years- is that your idea of timely care?"

Not at all and you Republicans still refuse to fully fund VA but guess what it is much better now. But I know little about the VA except there is a high satisfaction factor from those who use it.

" I would advise you to only speak about topics you know well, but that would limit you to speaking about working on a losing political campaign and being a government servant. "

LMAO wrong I have far more skills and government servant is least of them LOL

For Larry, essie and others...
...discussing the 'right' to vote.

From Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution:

"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature."

I'm no expert in interpreting the Constitution, but it seems to me that the Constitution establishes in this clause that the only requirement for "Electors" is that the people who are allowed to vote for their representatives to the US House must be the same ones that vote for their State House of Representatives.

It is my understanding that in 1789, when the Constitution was ratified, it was standard 'law' in each of the 13 states that only male property owners could vote.

Even the famous "equal protection" clause (14th Amendment) does not declare voting as a universal right, but merely that the right of voting cannot be subject to discrimination for race, creed, color, or national origin.

Also, the Constitution is replete with references to the rights and authorities of "Citizens", with a capital "C". This is in distinction to "the People" and certainly in contrast with aliens of all stripes.

Since the beginning of our founding there have always been limitations and restrictions on who could vote. Such could not have been the case if voting were an 'inalienable right' under the Constitution.

Doc, Doc, You do be da same... :-)
CVN65
Location: PA

Reply # 16
Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 12:48 PM EST Subject: Up All Night Doc
How dare you expect to make a profit on the misery of others! They really, really need the care, so they should get it, free of charge, if necessary. We will let you keep enough money to have a modest home and pay off your massive student loans. Do not expect to live as well as a lawyer, banker or lobbyist, though. You see, we do not care if you studied in college while others partied, we do not care that you gave up most of your youth and energy to pursue your profession, we do not care about the holidays, school events or kids' brithdays that you have missed to take care of us, all we see is that you make too much money and we aim to end that. WE can, and will, demand that you work for Big Brother, at our fee schedule, on our time demands and still maintain private malprctice insurance so that you can be sued but WE can not. We also will not consider tort reform or a "loser pays" system so that our constituents can feel free to sue you at any time for any reason. Now get back to work, we need the tax dollars from you rich guys, you greedy, heartless bastreds.

~~~~

Continued...


My cars have rights too then!
My cars want to blast down the road at 100+ MPH. So they have a right to a perfectly paved and banked roadway.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Hal
"...Isn't it logic that if healthcare is free, then the provider must be providing it for free."

no it is not I guess you skipped ;ogic in school?

---
explain how it could happen otherwise? Money has to come from somewhere if people aren't paying right?

And to this "free" healthcare...if millions upon millions aren't going to be paying for it, since they already don't pay taxes, who is paying for it? Its free for them right?

Hal
Do you still maintain that you can renew your driver's license without going to a PennDOT office to have your photo taken and license issued? Or are you like the rest of the Obama cultists in denying everything, no matter how trivial, even when caught in a lie?

Government employees at every level are worthless slugs, and doctors under any universal health care system would be virtual government employees. If the liberals can no longer blame private insurance companies, they will neeed to blame the doctors for costs and cut their salaries accordingly. This will drive out all but the incompetents.

Hal Donahue
Democrats want to insure cradle to grave care for all. Is the purpose of the Democrat support for late term abortions to limit the number of people who get to the cradle?

Georgetwin/CKHusler/All
Back when I was in HS Bill Cosby had this album out.

http://www.amazon.com/Why-There-Air-Bill-Cosby/dp/B0000062T I

Yes, he did have a career as a standup comedian before he went to TV and no, his material was not obscene.

Anyway, the point is the answer to the question on the Album Cover was, contrary to the picture, for HalD to waste by breathing.

What a waste of O2 and space.

CKHustler
"...Isn't it logic that if healthcare is free, then the provider must be providing it for free."

no it is not I guess you skipped ;ogic in school?

"...Though, the premise of the argument is wrong in the sense that the healthcare is not free. So basically, democrats are lying to the American people."

Reaaly??? Which plank of the Democratic Party says healthcare should be free?


CVN65
Berks County, still mostly a beautiful suburban and semi-rural area, but with a festering sore (City of Reading) at its center. Reading is now majority Hispanic, many of whom are illegal aliens.

Medical care is a significant issue. If someone has a medical emergency requiring emergency room care, even if fully insured, one must wait in line behind a mob of illegal aliens who use the emergency room as their family doctor, with the taxpayer and insurance customer paying. "Free" health care will only make this worse.

Hey, Mike !
Mike, you are mean !

Your every column makes one poster sooo mad, he posts to say things that are totally unrelated to the theme of the column.

You should be more nice to silly-willy.

Why not write it a tribute such as this humble offering:




A prissy, a hissy,
a blue and pink sissy.


Oh Will, a shill,
a bill, and still.


A bird, a nerd,
a snerd, a furd.


I'm gay, every day,
You Nay, I pay.


A , nickel a sickle,
A dirty brown pickle.


There now, you Mr. nasty Mike.

Go back to your disgusting hererosexual, Christian lifestyle !
You dirty 'straight' !



Ssgt
Like his Sissy Mary Buddy, Weasely Clark, Hal Drunkahue needs booster shots of Liquid Courage throughout the day.

Charles
Sadly, Hal is from PA. He probably meant that he could renew his registration online. He didn't write anything about his driver's license. Where in PA are you hailing from?

essie
Reply # 30
Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 9:04 AM EST Larry (Can't find "Right to Vote")
Try Article 1, Section 2:"The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States" "chosen by the People" sounds like a voting right to me.

How about Section 4:"The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof"

Ah, but the legislators chose their Senators (wish they still would), and Electors still choose the President. The state legislators under federalism had broad powers to determine their representation to the federal government, and who was included in the franchise.

Georgetwin
Is it his famous "Irish Seven Course Meal" (a six-pack and a potato)?

Georgetwin
"Somebody stole his bottle opener and he can’t get his lunch open."

don't you twist off the pacifier?

CKHustler
Why the logic and facts? This is Hal that you are posting about- don't confuse him with logic. Following an idea to it's logical outcome is anathema to the left; they are only interested in intentions, not the actual results. They don't care about the unintended consequences, they will just find a scapegoat like "Big Medicine" or "Big Nursing" and, with the help of the MSM, put the blame on them. Try to woo Hal with catchphrases and buzzwords. I suggest "If you like Osama, Vote for Obama" :)

A new gov't enforced right
Since the right to a college education means gov’t funded education, and the right to health care means gov’t funded health care, why not a gov’t program to fund our right to keep and bear arms??

I’ve got just the program! Go here and get in line! Remember, over 160 million people lack adequate protection. Do it for the children!

http://redhead.blogtownhall.com/2008/06/30/the_left_on_righ ts.thtml

Medical Care
Is socialistic medical care is SO superior, why did Fidel Castro come to America for treatment? I mean, he would have gotten the best doctors in Cuba, yet he thought he would be better here? Why is that, especially if, as Hal claims, socialistic healthcare is soo much better.

CVN65-UANDoc
Hal Drunkahue is upset today. Somebody stole his bottle opener and he can’t get his lunch open.

Hal
I don't know about you, but in Pennsylvania everyone is required to go to the motor vehicle office to have a photograph taken, even after the license id renewed online. So are are either lying or not from Pennsylvania.

How can I judge medical care? I judge the quality of medical care by the results.

I would prefer a white male American born and trained doctor. Guess I'm just prejudiced. I do have one very competent female doctor, but one always needs to be careful about affirmative action pass-throughs. As for Third World doctors, there is no way to judge their education and training, so I prefer to pass.

Fundamental Opportunities
I call liberal "rights" like health care and education fundamental opportunities. I think it's a much better term.

I have often contemplated that if someone took a snapshot of my life right now, they would say I have an unfair advantage over others. My monthly mortgage payment is $670 for a 3200 square foot house. I have two cars, but no car payment. I don't have to pay a credit card bill. I have a comfortable but not extravagant upper middle class income.

However, if you look back at each decision point in my life, I was at a disadvantage if anything. Far from being given a leg up by my parents, before I moved out a week before my 18th birthday, I was frequently asked to cover utility bills for my family. There was never an option presented to me that wasn't available to everyone else in the country who had made the same decisions up to that point.

Now I'm being asked to pay to provide the same things I worked years to earn to others who squandered those exact same opportunities, because I'm more "fortunate"? No thanks.

This is why I'm a foster parent. Children need to be insulated from their parents' worst mistakes, but having met some of the adults democrats want to protect, I believe there needs to be a lot more suffering for adults' own mistakes. Providing a hand up is important, but what the government currently provides is ridiculous. It reminds me of trying to hold a two-year-old who squirms and squirms until you can't hang on anymore, then acts as if it was your fault they fell down, instead of being grateful for you preventing a much worse injury.

Hal on drivers license
"...What the public will receive, for the most part, is the type of service we receive at the motor vehicle bureau when we go to renew our driver's license."

Really? WOW I just renew online very quick and very easy

-------

Can't do that here in MN. We must go to the DMV, wait forever in lines that hardly move because the government employees are in slow motion. Get up there pay the government some more so we can drive. Basically it wastes a couple hours if there are even 15 people in the building.

Up All Night Doc
Just kidding. I am in the same boat as you. I will turn the sarcasm button off now. Just like Hal Drunkahue to propose something but never bother to follow it to it's logical conclusions. Hal, just how do you think Free Health Care for All will end up? Did you consider all of the docs that will retire a few years earlier than they had planned? Or all of those that choose another profession rather than be a goverment slave? Unlike you, I have experience providing healthcare in the military, VA, public health and private settings. Guess which types are the least productive and least cost-effective? Vets only go to the VA because it is free; if they could go elsewhere, they would. When I was in Boston, the wait time to see a VA dentist was two years- is that your idea of timely care? I would advise you to only speak about topics you know well, but that would limit you to speaking about working on a losing political campaign and being a government servant.

Charles
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 12:32 PM EST Up All Night Doctor
makes an excellent point about "free" health care. Such a system will ultimately make all doctors government employees."

Why??? Is there no other way?

"...What the public will receive, for the most part, is the type of service we receive at the motor vehicle bureau when we go to renew our driver's license."

Really? WOW I just renew online very quick and very easy

"I for one would prefer to pay for quality medical care instead of free bureaucratic medicine."

Are you getting quality medical care now? How do you even know LOL

"The medical profession was once considered in high esteem. Now it seems that most of the new doctors come from the Third World. The system is already deteriorating. "

I still hold the profession in high esteem and I do know many of the second world docs are very highly trained and excellent

Hal
Look at the personal attacks spewing from him today.

Isn't it logic that if healthcare is free, then the provider must be providing it for free.

Though, the premise of the argument is wrong in the sense that the healthcare is not free. So basically, democrats are lying to the American people.

I see Hal couldn't possibly see the meaning of that though. haha...it takes the best and brightest, and you are a liberal...so...

Up All Night Doc
How dare you expect to make a profit on the misery of others! They really, really need the care, so they should get it, free of charge, if necessary. We will let you keep enough money to have a modest home and pay off your massive student loans. Do not expect to live as well as a lawyer, banker or lobbyist, though. You see, we do not care if you studied in college while others partied, we do not care that you gave up most of your youth and energy to pursue your profession, we do not care about the holidays, school events or kids' brithdays that you have missed to take care of us, all we see is that you make too much money and we aim to end that. WE can, and will, demand that you work for Big Brother, at our fee schedule, on our time demands and still maintain private malprctice insurance so that you can be sued but WE can not. We also will not consider tort reform or a "loser pays" system so that our constituents can feel free to sue you at any time for any reason. Now get back to work, we need the tax dollars from you rich guys, you greedy, heartless bastreds.

Up All Night Doctor
"...Date: Jul 7, 2008 - 12:17 PM EST Subject: Health Care
...I know that few care about us "rich doctors" but...if there is a right to receive free health care then there must also be an OBLIGATION for doctors and nurses to provide health care...for free."

With logic like that you claim to possess an MD?

"... No wonder the "best and brightest" are avoiding medical school. "

Are they? And why is this not the case elsewhere? Are you claiming to be among the best and brightest?

swamp fox
oh, dont be such a pansy. it was funny.

Up All Night Doctor
makes an excellent point about "free" health care. Such a system will ultimately make all doctors government employees. What the public will receive, for the most part, is the type of service we receive at the motor vehicle bureau when we go to renew our driver's license. I for one would prefer to pay for quality medical care instead of free bureaucratic medicine.

The medical profession was once considered in high esteem. Now it seems that most of the new doctors come from the Third World. The system is already deteriorating.

anderson659

Halfwits like Gruntz really crack me up. They get out their college ruled paper and their #2 pencilsand start scrawling their grand plan for all mankind. They see themselves as wise and comassionate, when in reality they're hopeless dorks.

Notice when you hear them talk about remaking society or fostering radical change, it's always change that happens via the business end of a gun. That is, of course, the government's final answer to any arguement.

Gruntz is just another in a long line of fools who've attended too many liberal humanities classes.

http://www.trythinking.net

Big fat government.
Our home is worth 1/2 of our next door neighbors. Our home is 1/2 the size. We chose a small home. Our neighbor pays a great deal more in taxes. This is something I don't understand. Why is he paying a higher property tax? We use the same roads, police, fire dept., library, parks and schools. He does not use them more than we do. Why is he paying more? Shouldn't we pay taxes according to use. The elderly are getting tossed out of their family homes because they cannot afford to pay the rising property taxes on fixed incomes. Does the government have a constitutional right to take more money from the rich than from the middle class and poor? Why? Shouldn't local governments scale down to bare bones their employees. When I go to city hall the place is full of people sitting around doing nothing. How can we the voters prevent this? Is it the government's constitutional right to grow as fat as it wants sucking down more and more of our livelihood?

Hal Drunkahue
Hey Gutless Wonder, did you Redline The Breathalyzer on the 4th?

Hal Drunkahue
Hey Gutless Wonder, Did you peg The Breathalyzer on the 4th?

Health Care
I know that few care about us "rich doctors" but...if there is a right to receive free health care then there must also be an OBLIGATION for doctors and nurses to provide health care...for free. No wonder the "best and brightest" are avoiding medical school.

Socialism vs Freedom
Today’s Liberals may or may not believe “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need’ but they certainly do not practice it. To do so would require acknowledging that those with the ability to work harder would have greater needs in order to sustain their efforts, whether their efforts are physical or mental. What they actually practice is ‘from each according to his productivity, to each equally’.

To my conservative friends, I would point out that we err when we claim that socialism never works. It works just fine, for example, in ant and termite colonies where individuals are genetically engineered with certain abilities to perform certain distinct tasks for the greater good of all. Some forage for material to stock the colonies food farm, some nurse the eggs, some maintain the infrastructure, some tend to the queen, some protect the colony. Those whose work requires more physical exertion consume more of the food. In doing so, they are oblivious to the efforts and even the existence of those who produced it, and none are free to choose the role they will play. That is what is required for socialism to work, a lack of freedom and, to compensate for that, a lack of self-awareness.

Mankind has self-awareness and therefore requires freedom. Freedom is equal opportunity.

Georgetwin
LMAO you are such a whiner

rights
There seems to be an assumption in America that everyone has a "right" not to be offended! Change the law, anything, so that I will not be offended by someone else's opinion or voice in the public arena. This is the beginning of loss of free speech in this beloved country, because if I am offended, then I can sue for damages and shut the mouths of those who are guilty! What a travesty of justice! I cite Don Imus as an example of this prevalent attitude as a prime example of being able to express an attitude that offends someone. So shut him up, as he is not politically correct!

Ssgt
We should tax according to Body Weight. Fat Girlymen like Hal Drunkahue, Jerk Murtha and Al Bore will be in the 90% bracket.

Hal Drunkahue
Shut Up, Take a Hike ang Pull the Cork out of your Lunch.

LMAO
A racist, homophobe LMAO a perfect conservative Thanks I will keep this piece on hand to show the few people still remaining on the fence

On the subject of rights....
Let's take health care as an example. You say you have the right to health care...What if I don't want to become a doctor. What if no one wants to become a doctor...do you force someone to become a doctor?

A right is a right only if it is available to everyone with NO obligation on anyone else to provide it. As someone else said earlier, rights are being confused with privilege.

WiseOne - loved the joke!

Why is socialism popular?
Adams notes people vote for equal outcomes because they fear to be rewarded according to their ability. This mindset is becoming more prevalent, and self-reliance less prevalent as society becomes more complex. A farmer knows dang well he doesn't want to trade his own judgement for that of someone far away who will not be punished/rewarded for the outcome. An assembly line worker seeing no result from good or bad effort, may well vote for a union's promises, or the siren song of tax the rich. Our schools are failing miserably in creating self-reliance and accomplishment in our children. I don't mean feel-good words about diversity and universal self-worth. I mean actual accomplishments so at each level the student can see the results of effort and feel that satisfaction that comes from control of one's environment. Kids that know their merit will be rewarded seek politics that reward merit.

Gruntz the blind
Mr. Gruntz "evil private corporations" don't come to your house and use snipers to put a bullet through the head of your baby, your dog and your wife, that is a function of government.

It is a significant difference.

Goggle; Janet Reno:Rubby Ridge
Goggle; PolPot:Killing Fields
Goggle; Robert Mugabe

negative vs positive rights
The Federalists argued that the Bill of Rights were unnecessary, as rights were inherent (negative) and that the delineation of rights in a formal addendum to the Constitution would lead people to believe that their rights descend downward from the central government. In other words, its flawed to assume that because a right is not outlined in the Constitution, it does not exist at all. That is why Madison insisted on the 10th Amendment.

I disagree with Adam's implied argument that only positive rights are justifiable, but I agree that a right to one's property (upon which this country was founded) cannot co-exist with "rights" to other people's property.