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Monday, November 19, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Devolving Standards of Decency
by Mike Adams
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Recently, a young woman came by my office to discuss my opposition to abortion. Two of her friends had already had abortions though she had not. She was motivated to visit me by a discussion in her Women’s Studies class – one that broached the controversial topic of abortion and rape.

The feminist teaching the class was one affiliated with our Women’s Resource Center – an office that seeks to win the abortion debate by ensuring that it never actually takes place. The feminists figure that simply maintaining the status quo will look a lot like winning a “debate” to those unaware of the extent of feminist opposition to the First Amendment. They also seek to win the abortion “debate” by using the most extreme cases to justify abortion for the sake of convenience.

And so it came as no surprise that the feminist “scholar” won some points with these impressionable young women by asking them “How could anyone look a rape victim in the eye and tell her she must have her baby?” This was done without ever having to look a pro-lifer in the eye.

Since many of these feminists are English professors there is a decided preference to engage in soliloquy rather than dialogue. There is also a decided tendency to misclassify (or ms-classify) certain questions as rhetorical simply because they have not been subjected to cross-examination in the minds of feminists.

My answer to the feminist’s question is grounded in the assumption that it was not merely rhetorical. My answer is also firmly grounded in reality.

Laura is a real, living and breathing entity – very much like the U.S. Constitution, one might say. She hails from Texas which is also where her mother put her up for adoption in the 1970s. Having never met her biological mother, she eventually became curious about her background and why her mother decided to put her up for adoption. She began doing her research with the understanding that it might lead her to discover some things that were, to say the least, distressing.

And it did lead to distress. In fact, it could not have been more distressing as Laura eventually learned that her father was a rapist and her mother a rape victim. Although I am tempted to speak of Laura’s kindness, her contributions to society, and so forth, I will exercise my right to chose to abort this story (a First Amendment exercise, actually) in order to reframe the feminist professor’s question:

Would it have been more insensitive and indecent to a) tell Laura’s mother to have the baby (as someone seems to have done) or to b) tell Laura she should have been aborted.

And, make no mistake about it; this really is a matter of decency, or lack thereof.

In 1958, the United States Supreme Court stated (in Trop v. Dulles) that the Eight Amendment must “draw its meaning from the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society.” In this case, the government was prevented from stripping a man of his citizenship as punishment for a crime.

And look where we have since gone in the name of “progress.” Less than twenty years later, the Supreme Court would say that these “evolving standards of decency” prevented Georgia from executing a man for the crime of rape (see Coker v. Georgia, 1977). The man had a sordid past that included murder, though not murder in the first degree.

And somewhere in between these two cases (beginning in 1965) the Court would imagine a new Right to Privacy. It would take less than a decade before the right to contraception would give birth to a right to abortion, which would remain intact long after the right to avoid pregnancy via the act of sodomy would become part of the constitution.

People very seldom take seriously the retort of one politician who was asked whether a woman impregnated by a rapist should be able to terminate the life of the baby. His suggestion that we should execute the rapist and not the baby was pithy but wholly unrealistic in a society that has so progressed and matured in the eyes of the Highest Court.

There may well be many progressive readers of this column who are satisfied with the status quo; namely, with the extension of rights to rapists and rape victims, but not to the products of rape.

Leaving only one of the three persons in the equation (rapist, victim, and baby) without rights could well be seen as a devolving standard of decency that marks the regress of a secular society. This conclusion is perhaps best avoided by assuming that the unborn are not fully human and, as such, cannot be fairly characterized as persons.

But, in order to avoid an eerie feeling of hypocrisy, “progressive” supporters of abortion rights must simultaneously assume that the convicted rapist is a person who has somehow managed to retain his full humanity and personhood in the wake of such an awful transgression.

Somehow I cannot muster the hubris to assert that the humanity of the fetus is surpassed by that of the convicted rapist. I thank God that evolution has not conspired to make me a part of such a mature and progressive society.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Let's have some statistics. . .
I'd like for Touj or another of our dear leftward friends to find some numbers here.

Let's start by finding the number of pregnancies occurring from rape, which can all be assumed to be "unwanted". Then compare this figure to the number of "unwanted" pregnancies occurring from consensual relationships. Somehow I think the ratio will be small.

But let's not stop there. Let's further pare down this number to only those instances in both situations where a failure to abort truly would kill the mother.

I highly doubt that the ratio will be large. I highly doubt that this is the greater in "greatest good of the greatest number".

What we would have, then, is a tremendously small number of children who "have" to die, compared to an immense number who could be given up for adoption and have the chance at a productive life. Why should this great majority have to die for a small percentage that actually "has" to? What kind of morality is that?

Yes, I am male. So what? I practise responsible birth control. I don't engage in behavior likely to cause unwanted pregnancies. I can guarantee that no young lady will ever have to go through that kind of emotional strain because of me.

Future Consequence
Where life comes from its not our place to take away. G-d knits us together like a spiderweb in our mothers womb. That baby feels pain,chokes jerks away,there is plenty of proof in todays technology.
My mom was pregnant with me 4-5 months she was involved in a car accident.My dad was drunk driving and an army vehicle was speeding back to base hit our car. My mom flew through the windshield rolled down a hill and hit a telephone pole. She said Psalm 23 then passed out. Everytime she jerked in pain she could feel me curl up in pain inside her. She trusted in G-d to keep me safe she carried me full term.Very strong woman of faith. Life wasn't easy especially with an alchoholic dad but G-d had a purpose for my moms and my life.
I read an account of dream and vision this pastor saw in hell. One thing he saw was women carrying around umbilical cords with fetus shapes dragging behind them. A choice to murder is not a choice, its a future consequence unless repentance comes you will have to face before your creator.

Gestell
Gestell: "As for polarized alternatives (Touj's point), conservatives should embrace the view that everything is divided into good/evil, true/false, etc. This is an important part of your ideological identity."

SOME things are. OTHER things are not. It is FALSE to say that "EVERYthing is divided into good/evil." LOTS of things are NEITHER.

Why SHOULD Conservatives "embrace" something SO incredibly STUPID? Because then, they would be as mindlessly stupid as YOU would wish them to be??? Yet anOTHER false generalization. I think I have said enough.

Gestell
Gestell: "If you go to a columnist writing about Israel or the Middle East, you will surely find that the TH Jew-hating contingent has come out in the moonlight to rant."

Hmmm. Just checked under Burt Prelutsky's article "Jews and Evangelicals"... and failed to find this. 75 posts (right now) - ONE of which I would classify as "Jew-hating"....
.013% hardly constitutes a "contingent"....

Gestell: "As for polarized alternatives (Touj's point), conservatives should embrace the view that everything is divided into good/evil, true/false, etc. This is an important part of your ideological identity."

SOME things are UNambiguously evil. I would consider child molestation as one of these.

Gestell: "Liberals are the ones who find a world of moral ambiguity, colored in shades of grey, with all sorts of alternatives."

So. Do YOU harbor "morally ambiguous" "shades of grey" views on child molestation? Serious question.

Gestell: "Learn the premises of your own ideology, please."

Ok. YOU answer the question I posed above on child molestation. And I MAY begin to take you seriously when you lecture ME on what I SUPPOSEDLY "believe."

Gestell
Just wondering. Is THIS an example of what you mean when you say you are looking for "civilised debate"? Or what calm.Touj means by "discussion of depth"??

Gestell
Gestell: "So, conservative moralists, what shall it be? Having these sinners drawn and quartered would work well, I think. It's really public and messy and clearly settles the issue. Beheadings have ample precedent in some societies, as do death by fire. Real conservatives should have the stones to propose and implement what their principles truly require.
Actually, Mike owns enough firepower to do the job all by himself, although he would have to reload a few times."

Quite frankly, this is one of the MOST offensive things I have read under Dr. Adams' articles. And as you know, MANY offensive things get posted here. But YOU wrote this. Think about it.

"Real Conservatives SHOULD"???? I know of NObody who THINKS like this. At ALL. "Conservative" or otherwise. Nor do I like your reference to Dr. Adams in this context.

Gestell
Gestell: "The real question isn't about generalizing; it's about whether or not I'm misrepresenting the views about which I generalize. Obviously, that's fair game for the critic."

Exactly so. And my position is that you do so as a matter of routine at this stage.

Gestell: "For instance, I can state that many conservatives routinely denounce liberals as traitors and perverts because I can find lots of examples of this."

Believe it or not, I have NO problem with this sentence at ALL. Why? Because you have included the word "many." YES. Sure. But NOT "all." There is a WORLD of a difference between "many" and "all."

Gestell
Gestell: "Among the posts on pretty much every column on TH it is very easy to find conservatives wielding a very broad brush with their generalizations about liberals."

Yes, and as I have pointed out to YOU in the past, this is JUST as stupid as when YOU do it. YOU should be taking THESE *individual* people apart.

Gestell: "Since it is inherently impossible for anyone to say anything about a topic like politics without making some generalizations, I don't regard the claim that I'm generalizing as a very serious criticism."

I DO regard it as a "serious criticism." You end up talking PAST the very people you are trying to address, and possibly win to your side. There ARE "broadly HELD" views which can be categorised as "liberal" or "conservative" - sure. But YOU are attributing ATTITUDES to ALL "conservatives" which belong to the FEW.

For the record, I believe GENERALLY, that "conservatives" and "liberals" are GOOD people - unLESS I find in a PARTicular case, this not to be true. Then I address THAT INdividual case.

reply to JimmyJoe
Among the posts on pretty much every column on TH it is very easy to find conservatives wielding a very broad brush with their generalizations about liberals. Since it is inherently impossible for anyone to say anything about a topic like politics without making some generalizations, I don't regard the claim that I'm generalizing as a very serious criticism. The real question isn't about generalizing; it's about whether or not I'm misrepresenting the views about which I generalize. Obviously, that's fair game for the critic.

My claim is this: What I report when I say "most conservatives think X or Y," or "real conservatives believe A or B," I'm making a reasonable (not statistically formulated) inference from what I see on my computer screen when I read TH comments. For instance, I can state that many conservatives routinely denounce liberals as traitors and perverts because I can find lots of examples of this. If you doubt me, go to any columnist's column on gay issues, and you will most surely find a lot of gay-bashing. If you go to a columnist writing about Israel or the Middle East, you will surely find that the TH Jew-hating contingent has come out in the moonlight to rant.

As for polarized alternatives (Touj's point), conservatives should embrace the view that everything is divided into good/evil, true/false, etc. This is an important part of your ideological identity. Liberals are the ones who find a world of moral ambiguity, colored in shades of grey, with all sorts of alternatives. Conservatives know with absolute certainty that this perspective is false. Learn the premises of your own ideology, please.

calm.Touj
calm.Touj to Violet: "I have just read your question about the robber who leaves a toddler chained to your wall (strange)."

NOT strange, at ALL. She was using it by way of analogy, in a SPECIFIC context in response to a SPECIFIC point made by dbz77 above. A most APT analogy. Nothing more, nothing less. So to claim that she "conflated" a toddler and an embryo is false.

As for your "Sophie's choice"?? That you have "asked before"??? Silly point. Of COURSE there is a distinction to be made between an "embryo" and a "toddler" in terms of development - BUT.

This does NOT mean that we may DELIBERATELY destroy the embryo for ANY reason. NO one is asking you to "save an embryo over a toddler". We MERELY ask that you REFRAIN from deliberately killing it. No big thing.

And like I posted previously, what IS it with you, and your fellow "liberals" - that you will stretch and contort and think up EVERY possible - mostly ridiculous - scenario to justify the killing of the unborn?

I actually dont understand this at ALL. Your "prejudice" should be against rather than for such destruction and killing. I use the term "prejudice" in the neutral sense - in that MY "prejudice" would be in the opposite direction.

calm.Touj

calm.Touj: "Conservatives seem to buy into fairy tales and morality plays like children, Lilly is right."

I have replied to this point above, responding to Lilly. I cant be bothered posting it again. Next FALSE generalization, please...

calm.Touj: "They keep choosing world where everything can be summed up into catch-phrases, like cut-and-run, activist-judges, gay-agenda, pro-life, family values, etc. etc., all of which are meaningless buzz words that stand in and prevent discussion or thought of any depth."

THEY? Who's "they"??? More of that broad bush your friend Gestell is so fond of.... LOL! Nonsensical and FALSE generalisation. As for "discussion or thought of any depth"???? Like. What you have just posted now??? Dont make me laugh...

Oh. Gestell is complaining about not being able to have a "civilized debate" too... But what did YOU or HE contribute that has ANY thought to it? I dont see anything. The only thing you SEEM capable of is the FALSE generalization - just like Gestell and Lilly. Interesting pattern... Indeed.

As for your "conservative buzzwords" that we "keep using"??? With the exception of "pro-life" I cant recall EVER using ONE of those. And I use that ONLY in the context of THIS kind of debate.

Nor do MOST people I know who are "conservative." Check truetolife and Violet. Bet they dont "keep using" them either. Just to take two other examples who are on this thread. Would that be yet anOTHER "false generalization" on your part????

calm.Touj
calm.Touj: "The fact that we have had this president for 8 years proves this point;"

Wrong. It proves nothing of the sort. It "proves" that Al Gore ran an incredibly inEPT campaign to be pipped at the post by Bush. Similarly with John "For AND against" Kerry.

I could stomach neither Gore or Kerry. So Bush was my default vote. And with the exception of his superb choices for the Supreme Court, I cant rate him a conservative at ALL. So what's your problem?

Nor could I EVER vote Democrat while that party remains captive to NARAL and such people. So Bush gets my vote - NOT on his merits - or because I particularly like him - but because he isnt a Democrat!

calm.Touj: "he was elected on Rove-propaganda, telegenics, religion, and for the second time, gay marriage."

More nonsense. He was elected because he wasnt Gore or Kerry!

calm.Touj
See! You think just like a pro-lifer! Seeing as how there can be no "choice" between choosing a toddler (whom we can see) and a ten hour embryo (whom we cannot see) there is no possibility to make a choice!! That is the way it should be! No "choice" to end either life. Welcome to the beginning of a truly informed conscience--excellent! Now you just need to nurture that newly found mostly latent conscience and you'll be a life affirming person in no time. Happy Thanksgiving!

and I forgot to make
my point by Violet's conflation of embryo and toddler, not that cons bother with distinctions of meaning (which is my point, of course).

Hi, Gestell
Just had a chance to read this thread since 2 days ago - I wanted you to know that I basically agree with your last pot to me...people vote for incredibly naive reasons, and it always seemed to me that those who are most easily manipulated are the ones who see the world in binary terms of good-evil, black-white, etc.

The fact that we have had this president for 8 years proves this point; he was elected on Rove-propaganda, telegenics, religion, and for the second time, gay marriage. Conservatives seem to buy into fairy tales and morality plays like children, Lilly is right. They keep choosing world where everything can be summed up into catch-phrases, like cut-and-run, activist-judges, gay-agenda, pro-life, family values, etc. etc., all of which are meaningless buzz words that stand in and prevent discussion or thought of any depth.

vioet
I have just read your question about the robber who leaves a toddler chained to your wall (strange).

Tell me, (and I've asked this question before) if you had to make a Sophie's choice about the life of a toddler or the life of a ten hour old embryo, which would you choose?

It seems the toddler is not exactly the same as an embryo, is it?

Violet and truetolife
I love your posts!! I hope you also have a most wonderful thanksgiving.

Gestell: I dont love YOUR posts, but I hope you have a wonderful thanksgiving too!

Gestell
I see three of us conservatives at the very end of this thread: JimmyJoe, truetolife, and me.

Which of us three would you like to accuse again of calling you a traitor, pervert, agent of Satan, condemning you to h***, etc.? You know full well none of us has - the consistent tone of our posts IS virtually all the "civilized debate" for which you say you were looking. In fact, you owe us an apology, along with the majority of the conservative commenters on this site.

If you would like to see more civilized debate, please try engaging **ONLY** in that yourself. I guarantee you will find yourself having more productive discussions in your time here.

Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving.

JimmyJoe
I hope you have a wonderful and happy Thanksgiving!

JimmyJoe
Thanks! Now I don't have to try to respond to Gestell. Sarcasm is my forte ("Mom, he started it!") but God isn't finished with me yet. I keep plodding along and try to become more virtuous along the way. In the meantime, you DA MAN!!!

Gestell
Gestell: "I started out on TH a couple of years ago looking for civilized debate, but found instead people who start out calling liberals traitors, perverts, agents of Satan, etc.,"

Right. IF this is true, that you "started out" looking for "civilized debate" - but just found what you describe here, then it should have been OBVIOUS to you "a couple of years ago" that this wasNT a forum for "civilized debate." So - given your STATED desire for "civilized debate" - why stay around in the meantime?

Gestell: "And what I've learned is--never hesitate to take the cheap shot, or someone will beat you to it."

Well, if THIS is what you learned... Your time around here has been wasted. Fact is, beating ANYone to the "cheap shot" simply makes YOU cheaper... than them.

But. You basically post freely on a "Conservative site" - posts littered (and yes -I use that word deliberately) with insulting innuendo and false generalizations regarding "conservatives" - and then you are "surprised" to find yourself at the wrong end of a few "cheap shots"??? Right.

Gestell
Simple question. Did TRUETOLIFE refer to you in any of the ways you have outlined? If NOT - THEN you have NO right to "load" this nonsense on HER. Treat her as an INDIVIDUAL. That at least demonstrates SOME degree of respect for her personhood on YOUR behalf.


Gestell
Again, you keep falling into the same trap. Over and over. The trap of the "false generalization." You generalise from the particular to the general. So "liberals" never indulge in name calling but "conservatives" do???

I can NEVER recall referring to ANYone as a "traitor" "pervert" "agent of satan".... NOR is this COMMON usage among the MAJORITY of posters - whether "liberal" or "Conservative."

NOR can I recall a SINGLE poster "condemning you to h***".... I take your word that someone MUST have - but you are talking about a distinct MINORITY.

And so I find almost ALL YOUR posts to be EXACTLY that for which you condemn "conservatives". Highly and needLESSLY insulting. Because you are attributing to ALL the attitudes of SOME.

reply to truetolife
My insults are nothing compared with those routinely dished out by TH conservatives against liberals. I started out on TH a couple of years ago looking for civilized debate, but found instead people who start out calling liberals traitors, perverts, agents of Satan, etc., and that's just the way these folks say "howdy." Imagine what they say when they really want to get nasty. So, I learned, after being condemned to H*** by those Christians who've sneaked at look at the names in the Book of Life and just know that liberals are all left out. And what I've learned is--never hesitate to take the cheap shot, or someone will beat you to it.

John contd


JK: "I am shocked that Sadie rejects proposals like those from Mitt Romney and Hillary Clinton that require everyone to buy health insurance (similar to the requirement to buy car insurance).

"Shocked"? Or "shocked shocked"???? LOL! I think the word that she doesNT like here is the word "require".... Why should GOVT dictate what a person may or may not "require" to buy? That isNT the same thing as the Govt requiring of us that we dont KILL.

JK: "Why isn’t Sadie screaming for healthcare solutions that make sure every child is protected and parents are held responsible!"

Because she probably sees it as an intrusion of Govt into an area properly left to the individual to decide. No big thing. NOT a "life or death" thing in the IMMEDIATE sense. Which abortion IS.

JK: "Instead, Sadie fights for unborn children,"

Excellent. I'm glad she does.

JK: "but then shamefully quits the fight after birth-which accounts for only 4% of childhood."

This sentence makes NO sense whatsoever. Maybe it's just me.

John
JK: "Sadie Fields from the Georgia Christian Alliance has been consistently out spoken about the rights of unborn children."

Good.

JK: "Yet when it comes to the welfare of those children fortunate enough to be born, Sadie is willfully blind to how denial of needed healthcare could result in death for the child or the mother."

I suppose, considering that 1 million are aborted each year, those actually born ARE truly "fortunate" indeed.... But please define "wilful".

JK: "How can she be so outspoken about a child’s right to be born, yet so quiet about a child’s right to life-saving healthcare?

Easy. She may or may not like how you RAISE your kids - or how much/little healthcare you provide for them but considers it none of her business. However, she objects STRONGLY to your claimed right to KILL your kids. No inconsistency there at ALL... just for the record.

Oh come on Konooop: Please!

You take one person to make your stupid point.

So, because Sadie Fields does not see the need for socialized health care.... what... we should encourage more abortion, or force the country into socialized health care?

That makes about as much sense as me asking you if you've stopped beating your wife yet....




John
Who cares what "Sadie Fields" thinks either way on "healthcare solutions"? You are easily "shocked".... Sheesh. How lame IS this?!

Pro-Birth or Pro-Life?

Sadie Fields from the Georgia Christian Alliance has been consistently out spoken about the rights of unborn children. Sadie has made it clear that pro-choice Americans are supporting a parent’s the right to murder a child.

Yet when it comes to the welfare of those children fortunate enough to be born, Sadie is willfully blind to how denial of needed healthcare could result in death for the child or the mother. How can she be so outspoken about a child’s right to be born, yet so quiet about a child’s right to life-saving healthcare?

I am shocked that Sadie rejects proposals like those from Mitt Romney and Hillary Clinton that require everyone to buy health insurance (similar to the requirement to buy car insurance). Why isn’t Sadie screaming for healthcare solutions that make sure every child is protected and parents are held responsible!

Instead, Sadie fights for unborn children, but then shamefully quits the fight after birth-which accounts for only 4% of childhood.

The Truth about Healthcare

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/pro-birth-or-pro-l ife





dbz77
Sex outside of marriage is immoral. Sex between one man and one woman who are married is acceptable but can still be immoral if the couple chooses to not follow God's laws.

dbz77
dbz77 to Violet: "I am absolutely justified into opening my door and saying, "Bye, get out.""

Perhaps. Though this is (anOTHER place...) where your analogy breaks down. It isnt a question of merely "opening your door," is it? It IS a question of DIRECTLY and with FULL intention - killing the child. I suppose that is a ok too??

dbz77
dbz77 to truetolife: "So then sex is immoral?"

I dont know WHERE you drew this conclusion from what she posted... anOTHER red herring... I suppose... I would have concluded that she believes that the MISuse of the sexual faculty - because it is sacred - is immoral.

There is only one issue
Who should decide whether a woman should have an abortion?

The government or the person.

That is the only issue.

It is like: Who should decide what relgion to practice.

The govt or the individual?

If the catholic church had the same Power given to by the Romans, the church would decide


1. whether you could use a condom
2. IUD o
3. or whatever
4. and would kill you for heresy

We have graduated from that except some moslem countries who think like some pro life people and want to use the force fo state to determine
individual conscience about a cloudy moral issue.

Abortion is a moral issue in which there is no agreement; hence, keep govt out

aurowatchers
You just make statements in which you have no evidence for.

Abortion is murder. What defines murder? You? I am sorry to say what define murder is the common experience of people living together who makes rules about their society. It does not come from God; he was not around to define 1st degree; 2nd degree or manslaughter.

No one except a few nuts have considered it murder; dont you read; never in the history of abortion was any mother tried for any criminal offense for abortion but surely tried for killing a one day old baby. Neither was the abortionist ever tried for murder, manslaugher; only if he killed the murder in the process would he be charged with a capital crime.
You are entitled to your opinion just as the Pope is entitled to tell people that using condoms violates God's will.
But you are not entitled if we have any standards of dialogue to act like a one man God.
90% of the American people do not view abortion as murder.

Roe will stand; it will not be overturned; hope springs eternal for you guys. It is part of our culture as is the silly stuff on TV; pre marital sex; and other things that make you wish you lived in 1200.
Too bad; you cant go back.

Why are pro life people so nasty
It seems a contradiction in terms to be pro life and yet come across as so self-righteous and representative of what has been the worst of religious intolerance in the past. "I am more moral than you are" is what comes across. Bragging of good one is and those who differ.

Unless, you in a dream world, it is clear that a pregnancy is not the same as a borne child. And so, there is going to be a plethora of opinions of how to look at it. There are those who see no difference that if they had their way would ban the IUD. And then you get variations all over the place when it is okay and when is not okay.

One thing for sure few; and a very few, consider it murder; because if murder than no exceptions.

So at best it is what we use the term sacrilege for; and that is how many feel. They are not wrong; you cant chalange how people epxerience a pregnancy.
It is a controversial moral issue just was HS was and still is; and the way
virginity was considered a moral issue.
When you do not have agreement, except it is not murder which few agree to; what do you have? You have something like a relgious issue; and what do you do: You leave to the individual determinaton as we all such kinds of matters.
For those in pro life movement to cal anyone who sees it differently as immoral, stupid, killers tells more about them than about the women from the beginning of civilization have opted for aborton. Abortoin was invented in 1970.

dbz
i dont get your point about invaders.

This whole thread is juvenile. One does not have to get bogged in such abstract arguments.

One only brings up rape and other so called special circumstances to demonstrate the mass of the population does notview a pregancy the same as a born child. That is not philosophy; it is not abstract reasoning.
It is just the way the mass of people experience their world.

It is like religion; where people experience a sense of God in various ways or not at all

You can't argue with how people experience their world; it becomes a problem when some want to make their experience into law and impose it on others.

So abortion is a moral issue in which there is no consensus; and a general consensus that the what is inside is not a person with rights; all the special situations make that clear; Since not a person with rights, it is a matter of what value is put on it; that varies. Hence, given great respect for control over your own body, we leave it to the individual.

That is all there is to it. The posters here who are so self-righeious are no different than in Iran where adulterers are killed; hs are killed. Alll on the basis of tryanny of one's moral position.

Lilly
If Roe v Wade is overturned, abortions won't stop. The right to allow them will be returned to the states and some states will choose to continue to allow them. Some states will probably choose not to.

One major effect I think we'll see is that people will start actually using contraception. I don't work in the abortion industry, but I have a good friend who is a counselor at the student med center of a major university. One of his jobs is to screen girls who are referred for abortion. They believe it cuts down on depression and suicide if the girl has someone to talk to before she really murders her baby. Well, Mark's experience is that 90 percent of the girls he's screened over the years have not used contraception or they've relied on condoms which have a 23 percent failure rate in the laboratory (according to industry literature!). His job doesn't allow him to counsel these girls in any way. He's there to listen and to murmur things like "it's your choice" and "you shouldn't have to suffer" in response to whatever they say, but over the years Mark says he's wanted to scream "Have you never heard of the pill, the diaphragm, the Nova-ring? What is wrong with you that you don't plan ahead?"

I think Roe v Wade makes people lazy and that's why we "must" have abortion. If it wasn't available, contraception -- which is highly effective these days -- would be used everytime and carefully because people would have fewer options.

Abortion is NOT contraception. It's murder.

dbz77
Well, my dear sir, I earnestly hope I am nowhere near you should I ever be dependent and helpless and in need of a little temporary assistance.

I hope even more earnestly that YOU never find yourself in a situation where you are temporarily dependent or in need of help and people refuse to offer you even the most basic life-preserving assistance.

Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving.

Violet
"Oh, and while you're waiting for the jackhammers to come to remove the chain, you probably should feed the little tyke something or other. "
that is where you are wrong. I do not have to feed the tyke.

"Then you (again, if you're a human being) can't just open your door and say "bye, get out.""
I am absolutely justified into opening my door and saying, "Bye, get out."

dbz77
"I would simply evict the toddler from my home."

"Simply?" No,it's not simple.

Not simple at ALL. First you have to get the chain out of your wall. Then you have to get the chain off the toddler without hurting him or her, that is if you have a shred of humanity. Then you (again, if you're a human being) can't just open your door and say "bye, get out." You'd find a hospital or home to take care of him or her, or find someone to pursue adopting this abandoned child, or take him or her yourself if you so chose.

Oh, and while you're waiting for the jackhammers to come to remove the chain, you probably should feed the little tyke something or other.

Not so simple, is it? And that is the situation in which a raped an unwillingly pregnant woman finds herself.

And THAT is why pro-abortion people, and prolife people too by the way, need to spend much energy helping women in unwanted pregnancy situations, ESPECIALLY those who have been raped (a tiny percent of pregnancies, but the principle remains.)

Violet
I would simply evict the toddler from my home.

Similarly, rape victims have a right to evict the rapist's baby from their womb at any time.

TrueToLife
So then sex is immoral?

Voilet
LOL! Excellent response! Of course, maybe dbz77 WOULD shoot the toddler... and of course let the burgler off the hook... I wonder if he supports capital punishment?

Unrelated of course, but amazing how many are against capital punishment for the guilty and for capital punishment for the innocent...

violet
"...and on top of that has installed a heavy chain on your living room wall to which is attached: a toddler.

Would you be justified in shooting the toddler?"

That pretty much exposes the absurdity of dbz77's argument. Good job!

Amazingg
How interesting that so many of the marxist/feminists have nested in the English
Departments of major universities. Post-Modernism is welcomed there. At Cornell University, for example, there are about 46 instructors, but not one of them is a Shakespearean scholar; most are experts in Marxism, Marxist theory, feminism and feminist theory. No English lit, American lit, poetry of England and America, Tolstoy, Doestevsky, etc., imagine hiring one of these to teach in high schools. It reminds me of Saul Bellow's famous rejoinder to multiculturalism: who is the Tolstoy of the Zulus?"

it is so amazing
the kind of scenarios some anti life people will come up with to justify living immoral lives. Let's have sex any way, any time, any where and--surprise! surprise!! sometimes pregnancy is a result of sex!!! No problem. Snuff out the baby if its inconveeeeeenient.....but we'll talk about the less than one percent of abortions that occur as a result of rape to justify abortion. Hypocrites and barbaric savages. If the baby is wanted, it's a baby. If it's inconvenient, it's a parasite. All semantics to justify the snuffing out of their consciences. Pitiful.

dbz77
Your logic, I am afraid, leaves much to be desired.

Imagine a burglar coming into your home at night: smashing windows, cutting up wallpaper, taking your things, etc. You wake up and find he's gone, with your property no less, and on top of that has installed a heavy chain on your living room wall to which is attached: a toddler.

Would you be justified in shooting the toddler?

TrueToLife
If the baby is conceived through rape, then the baby is a foreign invader for the duration of the pregnancy.

dbz77
So, you're afraid of a baby and consider that little person the same as a burglar entering your home or a terrorist flying into the twin towers? You've got some serious issues to deal with. Don't be afraid of a little baby. He/she cannot harm you. Now settle down and try to get some help when you are able to get a bit of a grasp on reality.

Phileo
A baby conceived through rape entered the body by force - unless you claim that rape does not involve force.

Foreign Invader
"However, the baby is not the rapist. It is completely innocent."
The baby is a foreign invader.

Mother of 4
Superb post.

Hey there, truetolife...
If it wasnt for their blood-thirsty appetite for the life of the unborn, I would have FAR more sympathy with the "liberal" position in general. That to me is the single biggest turn off.

What is it with them, that they will rack (what they call!!) their brains to come up with the MOST extreme circumstances imaginable to justify it? Gestell with his pregnant 11-year-old. Our other friend who had to go to Poland to find a woman going blind.... What IS it with them?

I would just LOVE if they could overcome their prejudices in THIS area - and say some-ONE-thing in favor of LIFE. But I wont hold my breath!!

Gestell
You must do a lot of "toasting" to yourself! Because the words you use make you your own worst enemy.

Clay
Clay: "JimmyJoe, the reason that you often find Robert's statements incomplete and devoid of meaning is because he likes to start the sentence in question in the subject line of his post and then finish it, usually below his quote of someone else."

Heh. I know that... and STILL find his statements "incomplete" and "devoid of meaning"!!

reply to calm.Touj
If I thought that politics in the real world was primarily a matter of rational discussion and persuasion, along with some elementary good manners, I might be able to find conservatives simply amusing in their confusion and blameworthy for their ill will and crudity. However, politics doesn't work like that. No one can keep philosophically illiterate and ethically dysfunctional people from voting, and their votes can control this country. That's why I look forward to fragmentation among religious conservatives and will do what I can to stir up disagreements in their ranks. As the old toast has it, "Confusion to our enemies!"

dbz77 change term or change argument
If you will bother to Google the definition of invader, you will see "someone who enters by force in order to conquer". That comes not even close to describing an unborn child. If you invade my home, be ready to meet your maker. If you view a child as an "invader", you'd better stay away from MY child.

And if you will open your mind and realize the tremendous price exacted by abortion on the pregnant woman, the medical practitioner, our society and, most of all, the child, you MIGHT change your mind.

By the way, I'm glad YOU weren't aborted.

100% in Favor
I am 100% in favor of executing those who invade a woman's body via rape -- that is, executing the rapists.

However, the baby is not the rapist. It is completely innocent.

Remember the words of my fellow due date club member. "If I kill my baby because its father hurt me I'd be worse than he is."

One day those of you who think that a rapist has a right to life and an unborn baby does not may grow up and learn the critical distinction between a criminal offender and an innocent life.

It is bad to victimize a woman. It is worse to kill a baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

In the rare case that a woman who was raped conceives a child she cannot simply be made unpregnant. The baby lives -- a separate person, innocent of all wrongdoing, unstained by sin, fully human with all the rights of every other human.

Once can turn evil to good -- giving the child a fair chance at a good life via adoption and giving an infertile couple the child of their dreams. Or one can multiply evil by killing the child. It is not possible to unrape the woman and unconceive the child.

Anyone who believes that an abortion would make it like it never happened at all is delusional.

Len
Supposed a conceptus had the same right to life as born people.

Therefore, in the event of a foreign invasion, the ethics of killing the invaders are the same whether the invaders are born or unborn.

Now, an unborn conceived through rape is invading someone else's body, so...

correction
"Lilly acting like little children and brings up the adult aspect, but then winds up characterizing it in terms of an immature child."

Should have been worded like this:

Lilly accuses conservatives of acting like little chidren, and then brings up the adult aspect, but then winds up characterizing it in terms of a immature, selfish child looking for a quick fix.

Nam 65-66
You served in 'Nam, I presume.

Was it justified for the South Vietnamese to shoot at North Vietnamese invaders?

If so, why shouldn't rape victims kill those who invade their bodies?

calm.touj
"You are the perfect person to have responded to Lilly because you prove her point."

Oh yeah? How's that?

"I am so sick of listening to self-righteous, smug religious people talk about "taking responsibility" - all that has become is a catch-phrase, like the ohters that conservatives are so fond of, for dismissing the complexities and contradictions of human existence."

I don't remember mentioning anything about religious. I take it then, that any one who disagrees with you is automatically a "self-righteous, smug religious person".

Hiding behind the "complexities and contradictions of human experience" doesn't absolve you from taking responsibility for your actions.

"I'm glad, however, that life is obviosuly so simple for you, and that when you "take responsbility" everything ends up happy and alive."

Far from it. Sometimes taking responsibility for your actions isn't all roses. But taking responsibility for one's actions and dealing with the consequences is the adult choice to make. Lilly acting like little children and brings up the adult aspect, but then winds up characterizing it in terms of an immature child.

So are we to believe that taking responsibility for the consequences of one's action is a childish thing to do while rushing to the quick fix of abortion to dodge the consequences the adult thing to do in the world of "complextions and contradictions of the human experience"?




Foreign Invader
An unborn conceived through rape is inside the womb without the mother's permission. This comes from the fact that the mother did not consent to the rapist squirting his c u m into her vagina. Thus, the unborn would be a foreign organism inside another person's body without consent - a foreign invader.

If it is murder for rape victims to abort their babies, then it was murder for the Poles to kill the Germans who were invading their country in 1939.

The entire thesis of the pro-life argument is that the same ethics apply to killing unborn as killing born. Thus, if it is justified to kill foreign invaders, it would be no more wrong to kill unborn foreign invaders than born foreign invaders. If it is murder to kill foreign invaders, then it is no less wrong to kill a born foreign invader than an unborn foreign invader.

So which is it? Is it justified to kill foreign invaders?

Kali
I have met people my age whose fathers served in Vietnam.

Obviously, they survived, or I would have never met their children.

Was it wrong for the North Vietnamese to use lethal force against the Americans? After all, those American soldiers were as innocent as unborn babies conceived by rape. It was not their fault they were sent to Vietnam to fight the North Vietnamese, any more than it was the fault of unborn babies that their mothers were raped.

Gestell

"Aren't you just overwhelmed by all those TH readers who know just what to do with 11-year olds who are pregnant from incest? Yeah, me too."

Every time I get sucked into one of these stupid threads I want to set my hair on fire. Generally, I console myself by remembering that this does not represent all of America, and, actually, their inability to debate effectively and rationally is good for the left.

So, I say to them: Keep at it folks, you're our allies, our right flank, our setup for the delivery...If you ever learn to be interesting, or genuinely persuasive, if you ever learn that the way to convince people is NOT by calling them names and trying to legislate their private lives, it will be fun the in short run (intellectually)but bad for us in the long (practically).

Whatever you're doing, Big Mick, Anne, and the rest - KEEP IT UP, PLEASE!

Unless you have been there . . .
Try telling my brothers and I, my children, my grandchildren, my nieces and nephews that none of us should have been born. My father was the child of a 16 year old who was a victim of rape by her employer (she herself was orphaned at the age of 10 and had to work as a domestic to support herself, and later her child as well). Sorry, but I like waking up on this side of the dirt myself.

Certainly the circumstances were tragic, but my father is very much loved, and he is no less of a person because of the circumstances of his conception. We are talking about real, live human beings here, not just a blob of tissue.


calm.Touj
Why do you equate being pro life with Christians? Sounds quite judgemental to me. I know of many atheists who are pro life. Maybe the problem is not so much with your position on abortion, but your position on the condition of your soul. Very Freudian. Think about that for awhile. Hmmmmm...

Gestell
Aren't you just overwhelmed with all those TH commenters who are pro life and come up with REAL solutions? Aren't you just overwhelmed with true intelligence? Thought so....

reply to calm.Touj
Aren't you just overwhelmed by all those TH readers who know just what to do with 11-year olds who are pregnant from incest? Yeah, me too.

I guess real conservatives, especially Christian conservatives, would say (1) those little girls should have made responsible decisions about sexual activity and (2) obviously, they have to carry the baby to term. What then? Well, they can send the new moms back home with the new kid they are so clearly able to take care of now (individual responsibility!)

Oh, I forgot (3) If the 11-year old gets an abortion, she'll have to do some hard time for her murderous ways, or (alternative scenario) if she had been given information about contraception, that would have violated God's laws too. Between God and his conservative followers, the poor kid is in a classic double bind. Nice.

calm
so now you are justifying the victimization of millions of 22 week olds on the basis of the victimization of a few hundred 11 year olds.

The terms "arguing to infinity", "false moral equivalence" and "proportionality" come to mind.

Me, I'd gladly take their uncles, brothers, "fathers", "grandfathers" and cousins out and remove them from the gene pool so they CAN'T "victimize" anymore victims.

That's what I call making people take personal responsibility for their actions?

Don't see that creating a second victim DOES that.

Course it's a commiequeer Principle to hold everybody but the doer of the evil responsible for the evil.

the big mick

"calm"
Last century is last century. Ya got RU 486 or whatever it is and morning after equivalents now.

You got the pill and the patch and a whole bunch of other safe PREVENTATIVES.

NO EXCUSES!!

by the way- when my doctor is messin with me he WANTS all the info he can get. Why couldn't and shouldn't a babykiller doc PRESCRIBE an ultrasound--when and wherever--BEFORE he does his thing in the PP clinic?
It's still a CHOICE NOT TO isn't it! A CHOICE to EXCLUDE information--a commiequeer Stalin-Hitler some pigs are more equal than others standard operating procedure.

Again NO EXCUSE!

the big mick

Clay
You are the perfect person to have responded to Lilly because you prove her point.

I am so sick of listening to self-righteous, smug religious people talk about "taking responsibility" - all that has become is a catch-phrase, like the ohters that conservatives are so fond of, for dismissing the complexities and contradictions of human existence.

I'm glad, however, that life is obviosuly so simple for you, and that when you "take responsbility" everything ends up happy and alive.
I've mentioned previusly the years that my dughter-in-law worked as an RN in high-risk pregnancies and cared for 11 year olds who had become pregnant by incest. Too bad she couldn't tell them to "take responsibility" for their victimhood.

Violet, Lilly,
Violet, you said

"But neonatology, embryology, fetology and visual ultrasounding have made great strides since 1970 and women didn't get all the facts on the development of their children do today. It is also well established that your typical abortion place like Planned Parenthood (for just one example) will NEVER show a woman her baby's ultrasound or let mer listen to the baby's heartbeat before "

I know many people who volunteer or work at Planned Parenthood, and I don't know of any that have ultra-sound equipment - if there are any that do, it generally requires a skilled professional to operate them. Even my own Dr. has to schedule them on certain days when trained personnel are visiting the office. anyone contmeplating an abortion has plenty of places to go for an ultra.

Two, Lilly's post of 11:50 (So, if you overturn Roe?) describes exactly my memories and experiences of the pre-Roe years, and she is right, the solutions of knitting needles, toxic concoctions, and throwing one's self down the stairs or off a horse were the choices left to poorer women.


it shows one's ignorance
when someone thinks nothing of burning a baby or tearing it limb from limb and then gets all riled up over Michael Vick's dogs. Talk about childish! Refusing to see the life within while acknowledging already born puppies is the ultimate in walking through life with one's eyes closed. Simple solutions for simple people.