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Monday, October 22, 2007
Mike Adams :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Islamic Fascists Get Away With Hate Speech
by Mike Adams
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When, in class one day, a student said that “hate speech” was not free speech, I asked him the following: “Can you even define hate speech?” After a long silence, I assured him that I, too, was unable to define hate speech. But, since then, I think I have come up with a suitable definition that helps me understand both the failure of speech codes and the success of Islamic terrorism.

My new understanding of hate speech comes from a recent speech given by my boss Chancellor Rosemary DePaolo. As usual, Rosemary was trying to do damage control as a result of her most recent administrative blunder. The current controversy intensified when the President of the Faculty Senate fired off a couple of nasty emails to the Provost copying the entire faculty in the process. The angry missives correctly criticized the upper administration for making major decisions affecting the faculty without properly consulting them through the Faculty Senate.

At our next university-wide faculty meeting, the Chancellor addressed the controversy without any reference to the substance of the charges against her administration. Instead, she responded to the criticism by talking about the need to maintain “civility” and a “collegial environment,” which, she said, could not be appreciated fully until it was lost. Many, including myself, thought that a lecture by our chancellor on the topic of civility carried as much weight as a lecture by Al Gore, Jr. on the topic of obesity – or perhaps a lecture on good puns by Mike Adams.

Everything was put in proper perspective when a liberal sociologist properly characterized references to “civility” in higher education as intentional efforts to avoid substantive discussions. In other words, he seemed to be generalizing beyond DePaolo to all of those who play the “civility card.” I resisted the temptation to talk about sociologists who play the racism card and feminists who play the sexism card.

But I recognized immediately the connection between the sociologist’s observation and the campus speech code movement, which seeks to ban “hate speech.” And, after letting his words sink in, I formed this new definition of hate speech:

Hate speech is verbal communication that induces anger due to the listener’s inability to offer an intelligent response.

Because this inability to offer an intelligent response is due to one of two reasons, there are really two different types of hate speech: 1) Speech that is too dumb to merit an intelligent response, and 2) Speech for which the listener is too dumb to offer an intelligent response.

Instances of the former are numerous in the society-at-large. For example, when a member of the KKK says “I may not be much, but at least I’m not a nigger” there is really no way to respond intelligently. Nor is there much hope that any response will be understood and appreciated by someone ignorant enough to make such a remark. So the speech can be properly characterized as hate speech.

Instances of the latter are numerous in academia. For example, three years ago this week, I wrote a piece explaining how speech codes produce a form of reverse Darwinism. I argued that only those who are emotionally unfit are likely to become uncomfortable simply by hearing a contrary point of view. I argued further that they are indeed quite emotionally unfit if they actually remain upset long enough to file a complaint aimed at enforcing a speech code.

Of course, after I wrote my piece a feminist started crying and went to the feminist (now former) chair who, in turn, gave me a lecture about civility. In other words, the feminists weren’t smart enough to address the substance of my remarks. Shocking, isn’t it?

Hence, I accurately predicted that the codes seek to weed out the speech of the emotionally stable majority - those who do not cry at work - through the vehicle of complaints filed by the emotionally unstable - those who cry at work but never file complaints directed towards the suppression of their own views.

The similarity between the two principal forms of hate speech is obvious:

They both induce anger in the listener, regardless of whether the speaker expressed his view with any feeling of hatred or animosity.

And this leads to an understanding (see bold sentence below) of the apparent hypocrisy of gays and feminists who a) cry “hate speech” (while actually crying in some cases) against conservatives who do not wish to kill gays and feminists, and b) tolerate “hate speech” by Islamic fascists who really do wish to kill gays and feminists.

Islamic advocacy of violence is not classified as “hate speech” because it induces fear, not anger.

This, of course, explains the failure of speech codes (and probably multi-culturalism in general). Since the enforcement of the codes relies largely on the emotional reaction of the listener rather than the content of the speech, the codes create insurmountable problems within both the First and Fourteenth Amendments.

And, of course, it explains the success of Islamic terrorism. It is indeed a strategy that induces fear in an effort to destroy the proper function of the First Amendment through threats and intimidation too serious to simply ignore.

But, of course, this is not as it should be. And I intend to offer a solution to the problem when I speak during Islamic Fascism Awareness Week. Like true First Amendment terrorists, some Muslims are trying to prevent the week’s events from happening. But the true American patriots who outnumber them will not be deterred. They simply will not provide the fear necessary for the survival of their tyranny and the destruction of our precious liberty.

Dr. Adams’ speech will take place at Clemson University on Thursday, October 25th. It will begin at 7 p.m. in Room 100 of Hunter Hall. Anyone in the audience who does not want to risk being shot should wear an orange cap.

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About The Author
Mike Adams is a criminology professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and author of Feminists Say the Darndest Things: A Politically Incorrect Professor Confronts "Womyn" On Campus.
 
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Nobody insults properly these days. . .
Or almost nobody, anyway. It seems that most descend to the adult equivalent of "you're ugly!", and "you're fat!", and "your mother!" Honestly, if you're going to insult someone, (and this goes for both sides of the spectrum here)at least do it in a clever and witty manner.

Winston Churchill, now, was a master of the art of the calculated retort. He knew how to turn the words of enemies against them. Funny, though, that his exchange with the Lady Aster would be considered hate speech today:

Lady Aster: "Mr. Churchill, were I your wife I should poison your tea!"

Churchill: "Madam, were I your husband, I should drink it!"

For the record, Lilly certainly is civil in all her discourses I have seen. I don't agree with her on a lot of things, but I can respect her because she makes the effort to think things through. (Something that a lot of people on both sides sometimes seem to fail to do.) Regardless of whether I think she has the right answer, she has my respect.

Lilly and Gestell,
It's funny how you talk of how uncivil town hallers are but don't mention 95% percent of the liberals who post here, who do nothing but insult and call names. However, we must not be all that bad as you continue to read the articles and post here daily. I'd say your observations are just a little biased.

sonofsam
Are you trying to say that victims (in this case Jews) of a satanic group (Islamo-fascists), have no right to defend themselves (neither verbally nor militarily) from those “puppets-of-satan” (Islamists quite similar to Marx, Stalin, Hitler, Clinton, Gore, etc) who are attempting to eliminate non-Islamists from the earth?

For years Jews have been responding to terrorist attacks by Islamo-fascists – it’s time that the Islamo-fascists are eliminated from the face of the earth as the “puppets-of-satan” (Islamists) have given word that they are out to destroy anyone (including other “puppets-of-satan”) who don’t have the exact same satanic beliefs that they do.

Getting away with ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm
Tuesday, 10 April, 2001, 16:01 GMT 17:01 UK
Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs

Rabbi Yosef is known for his outspoken comments
The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has provoked outrage with a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs.

"It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," he was quoted as saying in a sermon delivered on Monday to mark the Jewish festival of Passover.


The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them

Rabbi Yosef is one of the most powerful religious figures in Israel, He is known for his outspoken comments and has in the past referred to the Arabs as "vipers".

'Stirring up hatred'

Palestinian cabinet minister Hassan Asfur urged international civil institutions and human rights organisations to consider Rabbi Yosef a war criminal in future.

He added that no punishment would come from Israel "because its political culture and action are in line with [the rabbi's] racist statements".

Salah Tarif, the only Arab cabinet minister in the Israeli government, also criticized Rabbi Yosef, saying "his remarks add nothing but hatred".



Civility Needed
Liberal/socials certainly need a class in civility. Granted, some rightists(?) need a little civility as well, but by and large civility classes should be filled with leftists.

Was Tom Tancredo shown any civility during his speech at Columbia? Has the dauntless Ann C. ever been shown any civility at her speeches? Will or has any speaker this week during Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week been shown any civility? How many times has Lizzy Edwards chided her fellow liberals about civility? Rhetorical questions all.

doctorfixit
Wow, what a deep and profound post. Words dont mean anything...you must be college educated.

So then, If I walk into a bank, and yell that I have a gun-even when I dont- I should not be arrested and prosecuted?

Or to use the example you cited: if I yell fire in a crowded theatre, I should not be fined for causing a panic?

In your circular attempt to show us how deep you are, you really only succeeded in outsmarting yourself. In other words, your post was pure nonsense. By your rational, we should never arrest anyone for phoning in a fake bomb threat. I do want to hand it to you though; of all the silly posts I have ever read here, yours wins hands down for the most asinine. Please, in the future do not try so hard to impress us all with your superior intelligence.

I'm shocked
I'm shocked by this article, truly shocked.

You mean there actually is a tenured professor at an American university who is conservative?! Is that even permitted?

Touj writes
(apparently using only one finger)

"Who is talking about Communists and Marxists? Who is defending socialism? Who was even talking about Socialism?????"

This followed, of course, by the mandatory Liberal prejudiced personal attack.

Response:

Dear fellow-traveler,

The idea of regulating language in order for it to serve the interest of the so-called "oppressed" was first formulated by Karl Marx in 'The Communist Manifesto.'

The idea is that words serve the goal of the dominant class to maintain the status quo.

This notion was then further elaborated by Lenin in 'What to do?" (1918),

Then, in post-War II Europe the ideas of Marx and Lenin were then extended to everyone with brown skin, women, homosexuals and the disabled using different excuses, like for example; extingishing Nazi ideology, combating racism, sexism, etc.

This was accomplished by thinkers that were either openly Neo-Marxist or, crypto-Communist; i.e. Adorno, Chomsky, et. al.

This "fact" was the point of my post. Knowledge of this connection does not require frecuent visits to the Army-surplus store but instead, to your local library. It is not my fault if you have no idea or, are ignorant about the source and origins of your regurgitations.

If you want to be a radical -as it seems you do- I suggesst you better get at least a cursory knowledge of radical philosophy. Otherwise, like in this case, you look ignorant.

Sincerely,
Chairman Mao.

"Hate speech"; touchy Redneck
In 1856 a sensitive slaveowner named Preston Brooks was peeved by a speech given by a brave Abolitionist US Senator, Charles Sumner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Brooks

Because Slaveowner Brooks was accustomed to whipping people when angry, he bashed Sumner with his cane and nearly murdered him. Right on the Senate floor, no less.

Brooks thought Sumner's free speech was "hate speech." Brainless Brooks didn't understand.

p.s. Southerners rejoiced over the assault and battery by one of their own and later named a GA County after Barbarian Brooks.

Name a County for John Wilkes Booth?

Words Have No Power
Speech, or writing, or any form of communication, is neutral. It is a symbol of something else. An idea, an object. Speech is merely a sound pattern. Writing is merely an arrangement of contrasting dots on a background. These symbols only have meaning when we choose to internalize them, and then interpret them, imposing on them a meaning. Then we may choose to have an emotional and/or a rational reaction. I disagree that any speech can "cause" a reaction. Even yelling "fire" in a crowded theater does not "cause" panic, despite the opinion of the judge who thought this was an acceptable waiver of First Amendment Rights. Any attempt to prohibit communication based on the reactions that someone choses to have to the communication is illegitimate. The responsibility for emotions resulting from the intake of communication rests solely with the receiver, not the sender. The receiver can choose not to receive, not to listen, to ignore, to dismiss, to discount, or to become angry because they don't like the message. The sender is not responsible for any of these reactions.

Calm down, "Calm down".
Speaking truth is not always pleasant. Sometimes the truth hurts. I see nothing wrong with calling an idiotic statement idiotic. Is there a kinder word for idiotic? Why must we all jump through a billion hoops to find that one special word that won't offend? I can't believe how sensitive society has gotten.

Who hasn't said to even a friend at some point..."Don't be an idiot." (Or something to that affect.)

I think what Rose & Beckie were trying to say is that when a liberal, who comes to TH for the sole purpose of aggitating as this is clearly a conservative site, they call TH patrons morons, idiots, losers, etc, BEFORE a single conservative even posts! God forbid a conservative actually gets his/her ire up and self defends or even retaliates. Libs come on TH and throw egg and get upset when egg is thrown back. I think it to be rediculous that Libs would even go to a site they disagree with. I would never visit Daily Kos because it flies in the face of everything I hold dear and why waste my time posting to people that have their mind made up in a different direction than my own. What's the point? (Other than to aggitate)

A friend of mine
back in Oregon told me that blacks and other minorities can't be racists, because racism can only be found in the ruling or oppressing class. I asked her what she thought of the book, 'Mein Kampf', by Adolph Hitler. She decried it as the menace it was. I asked her if she knew when he wrote it. She didn't. "While he was in jail for that unsuccessful uprising he was in after WWI. How could someone be a racist and be oppressed (incarcerated) at the same time?"

She actually began to question the bunk her professors had poured into her willing skull. If it applies logically and equally on both sides of the argument, it makes sense. Otherwise, you've got what Mike refers to: My Taking Offense means You are full of Hate.

Try to get that one past the debate team.

spot on
Good Column, Mike. Excellent definition too, professor, as you've equally tasked the speaker and the hearer with the subjective.
"Hate" crimes anyone?

Les
not all speech is free. The Supreme Court carved out a few areas where government can regulate speech, for the good of society. Things like pornography, defamation, fighting words, commercial speech, clear and present danger, and as I wrote above, a true threat.

As I wrote on TH on another day, our Constitution was not written, nor meant to be, a complete document. The Founders made it a good outline, and left the details to be hammered out by the courts. The words "shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech" is the big outline. Over many years and through many cases, just exactly what that means has been refined. In the modern times, hate speech is being considered and may soon become an unprotected area, that is, subject to laws. Firstamendmentcenter.org has some good reference material.

Well Written Article
The label of "hate speech" is clearly a means to attempt to silence opposition opinions without engaging them. Here in Texas those who advocate that our immigration laws be enforced without consideration of race are routinely accused of being "hateful" and "racists." Those who are pressing for amnesty, multiculturalism, and de facto open borders to the benefit of their particular ethnic group, on the other hand, are portrayed in our newspapers as "activists."

Al Gore's Picture
This has nothing to do with Dr. Adams' editorial, but I am sick to death of that picture of Al Gore holding up his hand as if he is the Pope!

Science is a good thing
I agree, science is a good thing. However scientific expertise doesn't automatically make a public policy expert.

touj
you have this habit of discussing things of which you have little knowledge such as hate speech; i belong to an org thefire.org which deals on a daily basis with so called hate speech on universities; most of the action taken against conservatives

you can check it out

http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/8509.html

to get a full insight into this get

the shadow univ alan kors and silverman

Conservative definitions of hate speech
1. Life is complicated; it can't be figured out in a bumper sticker

2. Gay people are not trying to convert your children

3. Good women sometimes make difficult reproductive choices

4. Science is a good thing

5. Read more!

motley
That is a great list you have started. If I had more time, I would add more to it. OK, just one.

Children having children will keep mother and child in poverty.

motley
are libs born that way or are they self made. I always thought there was some level of inate skepticism to all aspects of life but it doesn't seem that way with the left. They seem to willingly accept the ludicrous such as the globull warming scam, ufo's, and the infalibility of the clnton's

Liberal definitions of hate speech.
(a) Take responsibility for your own actions, and life.
(b) Do unto others as they would do unto you.
(c) Be a patriot--Love the country that succors you.
(d) Honor thy father and mother.
(e) Islam is an enemy of western civilization.
(f) Radical Muslims are not nice people.
(g) American troops are the good guys.

And the lists goes on...

touj
stop the nonsense; we did not invade iraq because of veils; in fact the forced waring of viels came after invasion when the shiitte extremists took over some areas

to all
anybody voting for hillary has no moral center. It is so obvious.
if i have to explain, then the listener is already a lost cause.

treasonous republicans writes:
"stunned
"the muslim world hardly has the infrastructure to be fascists"

OH MY GOD! You just called Muslims primitive and/or backwards!
HATE SPEACH! HATE SPEACH!!

touj
it is because of people like you that we lost so many in ww2;
there was resistance to the last minute in spite of what was happening in europe and japan, that kept u unprepared; we were a sitting duck

had we prepared in the 30's we would have saved many lives;

the quest for peace can surely be a sign to your enemies that you are a push
over; never again will we allow ourselves to be unprepared as were prior to ww 2

The whole point of the un was to prevent what had happened in ww2;
it did not work out; so it is left to us;

it is the US that saved germany when the russians blockaded it; we called their bluff; and we were armed to take care of them if they went further

you are so full of justice talk; the corporations are screwing the american people and all that jazz; we are doing very well in this country if citizens get an education, dont get pregnant and dont have people like you rewarding sloth by govt programs;

going to war is based on a cost benefit analysis; and that is why we went to war in iraq; it is not capable of math. proof; one can only use general principles and history; you might have chosen not to; but once there, you whould be supporting our victory unless you think the victory of ad queada and weakened or dysfunction iraq is in our interests

touj
we are seeing two different missus clinton's. As there is no way to separate the two clinton's we are looking at another 4/8 years of a twosome in the oval office. As for her acting confidident there are still the times when asked questions she doesn't like and the occaisional blow-ups that result. But the constant pandering to every special interest group with more dollars from the treasury or more promised dollars down the road is still disturbing. But her total lack of experience outside of govt is still the most troubling. For her there is always another govt program or more govt spending to alleviate some injustice. But last week when she insisted there is no crisis with social security shows a loss of contact with reality. many studies have indicated there is severe trouble down the road without a number of changes yet she can't seem to understand that. No doubt the seniors represent a sizable voting block but will there still be available funds for those just entering a system facing bankruptcy, unl;ess of course all those economists are wrong. I just have no faith in govt solving any crisis, as their track record doesn't give one much confidence based on past history.

Dems. are wedded to military defeat
and economic ruin.

In the latest news magazines, take a look at all the columns now predicting a recession for 2008.

They just love death and doom and gloom.

What a wonderful party.

Can't wait for Rudy Giuliani and his running mate Mitt Romney or Fred Thompson or John McCain or any other of the wonderful Rep. candidates beating the pants off Hillary.

In Zogby, 50% of likely voters just said they'd NEVER vote for Hillary. She has no more executive leadership exp. than my dog. She has hung around Bill debasing and degrading his various women over the decades so he could hang on to power long enough for Hillary to drag herself into the limelight.

She may be the most wonderful gift the Rep. Party has ever been given. I hope it has the sense to accept the generosity.

Len
Please don't try to force me into a corner of indifference and a black and white view of the world and it's history -- of course, I find it hard to understand a society that veils women, but it's not genocide. Why would I not have trouble with chastity belts? Mt God, I spent my teens in the fifties when social chastity belts were the norm - why would I want it to be codified by a torture device? I hate torture, in any form, and I hate the subjugation of women in any form, but if I say that on another thread I'm called a - gasp - feminazi or want my country blown up.

A little off the subject, but historically the very notion of chastity in women is male-induced and male enforced. I've seen real chastity belts while touring a midevil torture museum in Italy, made by men for women.

Back to the point, I am also in favor of liberty, in fact, I wish we had more of it here in the US. But we didn't go to war to liberate the Iraqis - if you don't believe me, go back over some of the news that appeared at that time. Nobody talked about liberating anybody, it was all for WMD. The rationale changed when WMDs were found to be non-existent.

As for WWII, we stayed out of it for a long time, it was only when Pearl Harbor was bombed that we entered it, so that wasn't a war about liberating Jews, either, as much as we would like to think so.

People don't go to war for romantic, altruistic reasons unless they're crazy. Or, if they've been so sheltered all their lives they have no idea what the realities of war are all about.


touj
you like hillary; you mean you like socialism

could you imagine hiilary ever doing what guiliani did in ny; could you imagine hillary thumbing her nose at the race who res as Rudy did in cleaning up crime which of course actually helped the black citizen

never in a million years; he has a record of accomplishment in very difficult situation

Lincoln debated douglass in 1958 and lost; lincoln beat douglass in the presential ract in 1860; as soon as the war broke out, douglas ran to the white house and offered support

the dem party are traitors in spirit; we are not in some colonialist war for some selfish grabbing or land which one could make a moral objection to

just take this recent turkey business in the middle of the war; could you imagine in the middle of ww 2 a censure of more viscious regime ussr

you are jaded; you dont see the larger picture

bush does not put his finger in the wind as does clinton; rudy does not put his finger in the wind; he has held fast on pro choice in his party
whereas hilllary looks at the polls as did her husband
anyone who supports her lacks a moral compass; sorry, it is so obvious

touj
when we defeated the axis in ww 2, we cleaned up their societies from totalitarianism, both for our own future security interests and because we felt the right thing in itself

when we defeated hussein in the first gulf war, we did not do that based on the now obvious mistaken theory that it would upset other arab govts if we removed hussein; we encouraged revolts but the generals allowed iraq to use it airforce to rain down destruction on the shittes and kurds;

i think this reflects your thinking about veils and yellow stars, we treated the arabs as not worthy of freeing them; only free westerns from bad things.

We went to war in the current situation after 9/11 for a variety of reasons; one was to correct the mistake of not getting rid of him the first time; we found ourselve still at war with no fly zones; a failed sanctions policy by a corrupt un that was enriching hussein and screwing his people

but the primary reason was the middle east because of oil necessary for our survival was important; not to steal it, but trade for it; hussein was only a cause for destabilization of that area; that is why even in clinton admin, called for regime change; possibility of weapons;
someone like you would like to gamble on hussein; no worry;
the prudent thing was to err on the side of not trusting him;

911 as ben laden has stated was result of us running away; a paper tiger; from Carter in iran crisis; reagan in lebanon, clinton in mogadsh; and treating other attacks as criminal
it was a complete reversal of an appeasement and weak policy
not some nefarious plot by neo cons.

bush to his credit completely reversed his own pre election approach of withdrawing from intervention; things had changed

you dont have vision; you are no abe lincoln

touj
what is difference between forced wearing of veil and punishment for not doing such and forced wearing of yellow star and punishment for not doing so

one is ethnic; one is sexual; i guess you would have no trouble with forced wearing of chastity belts either of course on woman

it does not we go to war for such; after all, we did not declare on germany when they began their ethnic discrimination on jews in the 30's; apparantly if it is done in western society, it bothers you; or your moral sense; but if somewhere else it does not. you apparantly are a non=believer;
i happen to believe in our declaration and take seriously ;john stuart mill's on liberty; it is not clear to me what you believe; all your points are on the periphary

Wildwest
Actually, what's amazing is that Hillary has lept miles ahead of Obama, for all his good looks and charm. What that tells me is that people are finding her speeches more substantive, that she inspires more confidence, and that she's more sure-footed.

Actually, my respect for her has grown precisley because of the skill she has shown in this campaign - as I said, I can do without photogenic poseurs and frankly, I also think she is outshining Giuliani in the brains and quick-wit department. Her campaign is definitely working for her, while it worked against Obama- kind of in the same way it's working against Fred Thompson in the sense that the reality hasn't risen to the expectations.

I still like Richardson, though, although I know he's not going to make it through the primaries. I think he's got the best experience, he's good on his feet, he's states-manlike and I think he has integrity as well as smarts.


and, Len
I'm sorry to sound harsh but I think that metaphors like "moral ecosystem" is a certifiable form of intellectual masturbation if not a writing felony.

Sentnces like: "Every tool of philosophical advancement and communication that we use to develop our opinions about this war are denied to countless human beings on this planet, many of whom live under the regimes that have, in my opinion, been legitimately targeted for destruction"

Maybe we could just call it literary masturbation and be done with it.

Len
You are the one here swimming in an emotional bath.

Muslim fundamentalists beleive westerners like you and me are going to straight to hell, that our materialism and raw moral and cultural decay will poison the world and make us suffer forever. Their moral imperative is to save the world by killing us.

Based on your reasoning here, they have just as much right to invade our country and stamp out what they see as pure evil as you or I or your young hero in the military.

Also, Len, don't you think that comparing a veiled woman to a persecuted Jew in 1941 is kind of a stretch? I've read alot of your posts and thought of you as too smart to drag up the Nazi thing. And what does it have to do with slavery? As far as I know, none of these women were kidnapped and many of them stay veiled because the prefer it. Don't they have that right? Who are you to tell them otherwise?

More, I don't understand comparing the death toll in Iraq to the American Civil War - they are the same how? And, are you comparing Americans and Americans or Americans and human beings?

I would like you to tell me what you think we have gained by this disaster - it's easy enough to list the things we have lost. It's also easy enough to cloak this misadventure in sentiment and bathos, but it certainly doesn't help.

touj
the only thing i will admit concerning the missus clinton is that her handlers are keeping her on track. I have yet to see her nimble on her feet. But running against the other two lightweights has done nothing for any of the three. They are essentially clones of each other. I watched both the missus clinton's and obahma's announcement. I really thought from the authenticity of obahma's announcement he would issue a real threat to preventing her coronation, however he has yet to show there is any real difference between the two of them. She has many vulnerabilities buty obahma acts like he is part of the non ready for prime time cast. I think m,any wanted a choice alas he hasn't provided one

Say what?
Mike,

I'm not sure what you said but "I don't take any crap!"

touj
sure forced wearing of veils are fine; like yellow stars; and what about slavery; many slaves happy blacks;

what are you. go on to read a someone with strenght

pick up hirsi ali's books

gee whiz

we are not invading countries to get rid of veils; but once we are there should we not protect those who dont want to wear

them relativism at its best;

where do you draw the line; okay to hang homosexual; that is also a cultural trait; what about stoning adulterers

mental mastubation as he puts; ratinalizations



sawmiller
also read the first link by hitchens; mark, the soldier, read hitchens piece on the war which influenced him; when hitchens found out he died; he was shook up and wrote a beautiful piece on mark and his family who he got to meet, it is my first link for the vanity fair piece

TOUJ
I thought of you when mark mentioned mental masturbation; wringing the hands.

We lost half million in the civil war;; at cold harbor in less than 20 minutes grant lost 7000 men; if he had to that battle over again he states in his memoirs, he would not have done; but he is not like you and did not say the civil war was a mistake

History will tell; the fact there were displaced iraqis is irrelevant in the short run; world war 2 had more

you fit the description that temporarily overtook orwell; temporary

you are as you say old; you are burnt out and i think shortsighted

you have stand up sometimes; if wrong, so be it; who knows;

you are jaded; if you read again you will notice well he handles the mental masturbators; and this guy was no flamiing right winger

That mistakes have been made prior to petreus is clear; but that is another issue; had the current strategy would done from the beginning we would have avoided the mess; you are not a student of history; terrible mistakes are part of war; one has to see the long run

The clinton pulling out of mogadushi; the rwanda that is you. Not a pleasant thought of how to live.

touj. writes:
I told you before - I'm not a devotee of hers but even you must admit she is running a brilliant campaign so far and that has to say something either about her or her wise choices in advisers and executives.

Touj., running a brilliant campaign, and running a country are two entirely different things. She can run a campaign, or at least her advisors can, running a country, I don't think so.

Questions for you. Do you think she would be where she is today, if she had not been married to Wee Willie Weinie Wagger? (4W)

When it comes to paying for her baby bond, health care, and government 401k, who is going to pay? Don't just say the rich through higher taxes, the top 50% of income earners pay 96% of the taxes now. How much more do you want?

Who is one to emulate Touj or MaR E END
Please remember that the problems that plague Iraq today were set in motion centuries ago and were up until now held back by the most cruel of cages. Don't forget that human beings have a responsibility to one another and that Americans will always have a responsibility to the oppressed. Don't overlook the obvious reasons to disagree with the war but don't cheapen the moral aspects either. Assisting a formerly oppressed population in converting their torn society into a plural, democratic one is dangerous and difficult business, especially when being attacked and sabotaged from literally every direction. So if you have anything to say to me at the end of this reading, let it at least include "Good Luck" Mark Dail

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/hitchen s200711?currentPage=1

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewpr ofile&friendid=46348938

http://www.slate.com/id/2175284/fr/flyout


Brilliant Article.
God Bless You. Keep on keepin' on.

Who is one to emulate Touj or MaRK 4
One thing is for certain, as disagreeable or as confusing as my decision to enter the fray may be, consider what peace vigils against genocide have accomplished lately. Consider that there are 19 year old soldiers from the Midwest who have never touched a college campus or a protest who have done more to uphold the universal legitimacy of representative government and individual rights by placing themselves between Iraqi voting lines and homicidal religious fanatics. Often times it is less about how clean your actions are and more about how pure your intentions are. So that is why I joined. In the time it took for you to read this explanation, innocent people your age have suffered under the crushing misery of tyranny.

Every tool of philosophical advancement and communication that we use to develop our opinions about this war are denied to countless human beings on this planet, many of whom live under the regimes that have, in my opinion, been legitimately targeted for destruction. Some have allowed their resentment of the President to stir silent applause for setbacks in Iraq. Others have ironically decried the war because it has tied up our forces and prevented them from confronting criminal regimes in Sudan, Uganda, and elsewhere. I simply decided that the time for candid discussions of the oppressed was over, and I joined. In digesting this posting, please remember that America's commitment to overthrow Saddam Hussein and his sons existed before the current administration and would exist into our future children's lives had we not acted.


Len - one more thing
You and I might think it's strange that women in muslim countries are restrained and need to be veiled - but don't you think it's up to them to work it out?

I'm actually kind of aghast at the condescending assumption that Americans need to go everywhere in the world and tell others how to live, run their societies and communities, what to believe, and how to organize their governments.

who is one to emulate Touj or Mark start
SORRY THIS IS THE FIRST PART

Mark Daily 's Latest Blog Entry [Subscribe to this Blog]

WHY I JOINED  (view more)

Christopher Hitchens on Iraq  (view more)

[View All Blog Entries]

   Mark Daily 's Blurbs
About me:
Why I Joined: This question has been asked of me so many times in so many different contexts that I thought it would be best if I wrote my reasons for joining the Army on my page for all to see. First, the more accurate question is why I volunteered to go to Iraq. After all, I joined the Army a week after we declared war on Saddam's government with the intention of going to Iraq. Now, after years of training and preparation, I am finally here. Much has changed in the last three years. The criminal Ba'ath regime has been replaced by an insurgency fueled by Iraq's neighbors who hope to partition Iraq for their own ends. This is coupled with the ever present transnational militant Islamist movement which has seized upon Iraq as the greatest way to kill Americans, along with anyone else they happen to be standing near. What was once a paralyzed state of fear is now the staging ground for one of the largest transformations of power and ideology the Middle East has experienced since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Thanks to Iran, Syria, and other enlightened local actors, this transformation will be plagued by interregional hatred and genocide. And I am now in the center of this. Is this why I joined? Yes. Much has been said about America's intentions in overthrowing Saddam Hussein and seeking to establish a new state based upon political representation and individual rights.


Wildwest
You know that you and I have different opinions on Hillary - but in real life people are not cardboard cutouts of villains and heroes. Like Giuliani, they're generally a combination of frailties and stengths.

Conservatives are so frantic about Hillary, that they are in danger of jumping the shark and not being taken seriously any more when they condemn her - it's beginning to seem kind of funny when I see yet another column about Hillary eating live babies for breakfast...also, you always say exactly the same things about her.

I told you before - I'm not a devotee of hers but even you must admit she is running a brilliant campaign so far and that has to say something either about her or her wise choices in advisers and executives.

Mountain Rose
"Perhaps you will remember that when the Republicans, under the leadership of Mr. Newt, tried to keep the budget under control, according to their promise to the American People, Bill Clinton shut down the Federal Government just before Christmas, and then turned around and blamed Newt for it."

Did you read the site I gave? Just wondering, because I don't see how Clinton's shut down of the F.Gov. could effect the rise of earmarks. That site, btw, also is unbiased. No doubt, the dems have done some bad things as you say. One must weigh ones priorities. Thanks for the civil response.

Len
I'm sorry, but the obviously sincere and heartfelt- yes, I chose that word deliberately-declaration from a 24 year old does not answer the real questions of this war. I'm sure he feels exactly what he expresses - so would I probably have, at that age. but to be honest, I think that using the cause of Iraqi freedom as a justification for this carnage is just a little naive, and talk of "moral crusades" is self-serving. The fact is, this "moral crusade" , (as opposed to Darfur or Congo) was chosen for specific reasons, one of which was unabashed hubris, opportunism.

As for the costliness of war, this was a war we started, remember? And it was going to cost about 8 billion, remember? And it was going to be paid for with Iraqi oil, remember that?

We have not saved the Iraqi people as this young man would like to think - we have driven most of them out of their country, caused a civil war that robbed almost 100,000 families of sons, fathers, and brothers, increased the ranks of insurrectionists and religious fanatics, (many of whom were uncommited beforehand) and tipped the balance of power so that Iraq's natural enemy, Iran, will most likely rule the middle east in this new century. We have lost respect, credibility, friends, and all moral highground that was once our greatest strength.

It will take decades to get any of it back.

who is one to emulate Touj or Mark 3
When all else failed, I would retreat to my fragile moral ecosystem that years of living in peace and liberty had provided me. I would write off war because civilian casualties were guaranteed, or temporary alliances with illiberal forces would be made, or tank fuel was toxic for the environment.

My fellow "humanists" and I would relish contently in our self righteous declaration of opposition against all military campaigns against dictatorships, congratulating one another for refusing to taint that aforementioned fragile moral ecosystem that many still cradle with all the revolutionary tenacity of the members of Rage Against the Machine and Greenday.

Others would point to America's historical support of Saddam Hussein, sighting it as hypocritical that we would now vilify him as a thug and a tyrant. Upon explaining that we did so to ward off the fiercely Islamist Iran, which was correctly identified as the greater threat at the time, eyes are rolled and hypocrisy is declared. Forgetting that America sided with Stalin to defeat Hitler, who was promptly confronted once the Nazis were destroyed,

America's initial engagement with Saddam and other regional actors is identified as the ultimate argument against America's moral crusade. And maybe it is. Maybe the reality of politics makes all political action inherently crude and immoral. Or maybe it is these adventures in philosophical masturbation that prevent people from ever taking any kind of effective action against men like Saddam Hussein.

What's the matter touj.?
"I posted the address to a site that lists every example, you idiot.

What more do you want, sign language?"
Idiot? Is that the best you can do? What kind of sign can you give me? You probably can show me how high you can count.

Anyway you made the claim about secret laws, I didn't.

Your link appears to be the work of someone with a lot of time on his hands. You? Whatever list might be there will take more than a few minutes to find. Better yet why not, provide the link directly to the list? Too hard? Easier to resort to name calling and ridicule.


who is one to emulate Touj or Mark 2
Many have framed the paradigm through which they view the conflict around one-word explanations such as "oil" or "terrorism," favoring the one which best serves their political persuasion. I did the same thing, and anyone who knew me before I joined knows that I am quite aware and at times sympathetic to the arguments against the war in Iraq. If you think the only way a person could bring themselves to volunteer for this war is through sheer desperation or blind obedience then consider me the exception (though there are countless like me).

I joined the fight because it occurred to me that many modern day "humanists" who claim to possess a genuine concern for human beings throughout the world are in fact quite content to allow their fellow "global citizens" to suffer under the most hideous state apparatuses and conditions. Their excuses used to be my excuses. When asked why we shouldn't confront the Ba'ath party, the Taliban or the various other tyrannies throughout this world, my answers would allude to vague notions of cultural tolerance (forcing women to wear a veil and stay indoors is such a quaint cultural tradition), the sanctity of national sovereignty (how eager we internationalists are to throw up borders to defend dictatorships!) or even a creeping suspicion of America's intentions.


Hate Speech....
Is a term coined by Democrat politicians who wish to silence people they disagree with.
Interesting that the hate speech laws directly contradict the 1st amendment, no?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Yet Congress DID make a law abridging the freedom of speech!
It's called 'hate speech' and passing laws against it is a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.
Yet the foolish lefties decided that they are above the supreme law of our land...
As much as I disagree with Noam Chomsky's political views, this one is absolutely correct:
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. "

touj
if you are looking for someone who is smart, savy, capable, and realistic you can't be looking at the missus clinton. She has the slimmest of resumes, runs from hard questions takes credit for the accomplishments of others, and wants the whole world to overlook everytime she got caught with her finger in the cookie jar or mutters another stupidity. Her claim that she is a strong woman is laughable when she was not only an enable for a serial womanizer but headed up the crew that tried to destroy the women who came forward with their claims of bubb'as boorish behavior. But to be fair give three things she has actually accomplished on her own, most when asked this question draw immediate blanks. But her biggest flim flam is telling the gullible left that she is uniquely qualified but she can't say what she is qualified for

touj
I suggest you read the following. These are moral men. Maybe you can learn or rethink. Pay special attention to Hitchen's quotes from Orwell, you come across as burnt out old man;

in the last article, at the bottom there is a reference to book by those on the left; not your kind of kos; the havel kind; you might want to read it


http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/11/hitchen s200711?currentPage=1

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewpr ofile&friendid=46348938

http://www.slate.com/id/2175284/fr/flyout



touj
you write:I wasn't even afraid for my life on 9/11, or 9/12, or 9/13 etc. That was the conservative mantra and the excuse for a costly and pointless war.
_________
Very profound. Most wars are costly. So that is irrelevant.

Secondly, you state that is pointless. Is that a fact, I look up somewhere like the distance to the sun.

Be somewhat humble:

In my opinion, it is pointless.

expansion
And remember, in addition to the rules I described above, the people who come to this site to "trash" the columnists and the readers and non-leftwing posters can write anything that they choose. They can slant, they can distort the truth, they can write blatant lies, and call all manner of names, with impunity. But, as soon as any one of "us" is moved to point out that something they have written is untrue, or, shock and horror, respond in kind to being called stupid, that is an offence against decency, and proves that we are just too awful to live.
What would be the result if, for a single week, no one recognised the writings these people post here? I know, I have said similar things before, and been told that this "dialogue" is a good thing, but it strikes me as a waste of time and effort. How about a reverse Field of Dreams, if you ignore them they won't come?

Tom and Horn
Have you ever heard of satire?

(BTW If one were to combine your names one would have the name Tom Horn, who was a bad guy in the west towards the end of the 19th century. Steve McQueen starred in the movie. Tom Horn had a Winchester Model 94 .44-.40 which was and is a VERY bad gun.)

But I digress:

Loyal Democrat is KIDDING!!!

He uses satire as his weapon and you two didn't seem to get it, hence the award. He is a favorite here when he chooses to grace us with his (her?) presence, which is not often enough. I did not post with malice in mind, but there do come times when people (like you two) who are not familiar with him/her take what is said literally, which is not a good idea when dealing with satire. I was once taken in and when I realized it I acknowledged it with a one word post, that word being "whoops".

Let me repeat - No malice intended.

It's late and my dog needs to go to the river for a swim.

ttfn

trughes
Does your doctor know your off your meds? Perhaps you should read Krauthammer because you give them way too much credit.

To touj.
I like your reading list. I have just come to the conclusion that the reason the middle of this country is so ignorant of the world is that their source of info is limited to television, and dominated by the lying, government branch called Fox. Talk about Fascism. That single source of government lies, hatred and ignorance is as close as it comes, because, according to my previous thoughts, it STARTS from the private enterprise and the profit motive but extends into the government.

But I beg everyone who can think, to consider that there is no opposition to this government, no opposition to the war, no love of peace, no admiration for the finest creations of the human mind, until the lie of 9-11 can be exposed. All those things will go down in flames with the next false flag attack. Remember the Reichtag, and the Bay of Tonkin. It's really an old trick.

The neo-cons are deep and they have built a second government within, just as Ollie said he was doing. Yet, the irony is that anyone sworn to defend the real government, must defend the actions of the secondary, as well. Listen to these fanatics on this site and you know it's true.

You are free to escoriate me, but I urge to to think.


Ken in Tennessee
There are alot of phrases like "Islamo-Fascist" that don't really mean anything:

Activist Judges
Cut and Run
America-haters
family values
feminazis
gay agenda


These are just a few.

touj. writes:
Lumberjack
Keep laughing, my friend. She may not be the movie-star image we would all like to see but I think you had better get used to it.

Who's laughing? She and her policies scare the crap out of me. Higher taxes, more failing social programs, more of Slick's antics, more hatred of the military, more politics of personal destruction on her and her mininions part are not exactly reassuring.

The rules
For the benefit of those who try to engage those who log onto this site to: 1. call people who log onto this site idiots (but doesn't that include them?); 2. Call the columnists who's writings appear here idiots; 3. Accuse President Bush and his administration of being the epitome of evil and being responsible for all badd occurrences since Noah's Flood; and 4. Call all conservatives and religious people vile names; allow me to explain "The Rules."

First, Any criticism of any of those people, or anyone on the "left," is hateful, vicious, and not permissible. Second, Any disagreement with those people's idea of how the country and the economy should be controlled and run, is hate speech, and not to be allowed. Three, and this is the most important one, no humour of any kind, especially satiric humour should ever be directed at any of these people, because they have no sense o humour whatsoever, except when one of them is making fun of, deriding, slandering, libelling or otherwise blackguarding a conservative. Try to understand that they may call those they disagree with and hate, anything and everything they choose, and that is acceptable, but if you make fun of them, you are a despicable meanie!
Have a happy day.

Treasonous
I find your discussion interesting, but I don't see an answer as to why FDR wasn't fascist. I think it's obvious, he wasn't oppressive.

I find it interesting that my copy of the O.E.D. (1932) only includes the word the supplement and there: "One of a body of Italian nationalists, which was organized in March 1919 to oppose Bolshevism in Italy, and as the Partito nazionale fascista, under the leadersip of Signor Mussolini assumed control of the Italian government in October 1922; transt. applied to similar organizations in other countries."

As a sort of historical perspective, the word seemed to come into the English language only through its (oppressive) opposition to Bolshevism.

The free online dictinary by Farlex says.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

I think the favoring of private business was probably the raison d'etre rather than the definition of the system. I mean that it was the businesses, fearing socialist take-over that invented the system of government rather than the system of government somehow choosing that partner in their means of socio-economic control.

But I totally agree - it describes where Bush is going. Wasn't that Blackwater we saw helping out in New Orleans?

Movie stars
Fred Thompson is a movie star and he's not quite the movie star image we thought he'd be either. Good ole boy Fred's campaign has fallen flatter than a snakes' belly in a wagon rut.

But at least he's not an Islamic Fascist, whatever that means.

CAV
Well, if you think the site address I provided is a conspiracy site try one of the many others -they can't all be conspiracy sites.

There are also good press sources for this, they are easy to find by going to a newspaper that you trust and looking at the archives.

Lumberjack
Keep laughing, my friend. She may not be the movie-star image we would all like to see but I think you had better get used to it.

JMind
My assumption that you get all your news from TH is that you didn't even seem to have heard the national discussion about Bush and secrecy. The only place I can think of that would not dare to go there is TH and maybe FOX.
So, I guess you could say it was deductive.

Where do I get my news? I listen to BBC during the night when I can't sleep; I read TalkingPointsmemo.com on line, I read the Christian Science Monitor, the NY Times and my local newspaper during the day and at night. And yes, I do watch/listen to specific programs on NPR and Public Television; Front Line, Nova, and Washington Week in REview, and Diane Rheems, who has both conservative and liberal guests, on the radio. I have never watched FOX except for about ten minutes, it's too lightweight. I do read conservative columnists in the TIMES and occasionally the Wall Street Journal.

touj... the problem
is that you didn't back them up. I read your post and the site you pointed to is a conspiracy site. If you use snopes to validate and stay away from the vitriol of leftist sites you may be able to see the lies for what they are.

Hillary may be shifty, but she's not presidental. I and many like me will never vote Democrat, they're too far away from our moral and our life outlook.

Also
If you think the site is questionable, there are many, many others. There are also huge amounts of newspaper archives including conservative papers like the Wall Street Journal that will provide the same information.

I didn't have to provide zzz with a response at all, but I did because I thought his request for specifics was a fair one. I expected a fair response. I should have know better - I'm on a conservative website.

196CAVTrooper
Look, when zzz commented that I had not posted specific resources I did just that, even providing a link to a specific site, and mentioning that there are many available. He responded with a snide post accusing me of trying to avoid backing up my facts, ignoring the fact that I had posted quite a bit of back-up. He obviously didn't read my post, just wanted to deliver insults. I can hand them back.

Reply to Taft
Perhaps you will remember that when the Republicans, under the leadership of Mr. Newt, tried to keep the budget under control, according to their promise to the American People, Bill Clinton shut down the Federal Government just before Christmas, and then turned around and blamed Newt for it.

Of course, the former President's willing accomplices in the MSM started up with the howling pack act, as usual.

"The Gingrich that Stole Christmas," read the headlines.

Oh yes, the attack machine of the Left is good at derailing the purposes of conservatives and then are immediately ready to start up with their pre-prepared howling points.

Another example is the dirty trick they pulled on the first President Bush, to catch him raising taxes when he promised "read my lips, no new taxes." They planned to con him into giving in and signing a bill that raised taxes, and immediately upon his doing so, instead of thanking the President for working with them to iron out a compromise, they started with the Jackel Pack Howling-points.

These are typical Leftie tactics that only make me yawn.

touj. writes:
I'm not looking for a Barbie doll or the guy next door. I want smart, savvy, capable, and realistic.

Well one out of four is a good day for Hillary.

touj... in your typical condensention
you betray yourself. You assume someone cannot "cut and paste" so you call them an idiot. They asked you, specifically, for something specific. Instead you point them to a "site" that is questionable. You, personally, need to provide instances and specific laws that this administration have put in place that limit our freedoms.


Ken
I agree that the missing ingredient is oppression, although the increasing secrecy, (which apparently even eludes most citizens) is not a promising indication.

I understood what you were saying about the term "islamo-fascist" and I agree there also. The problem is, it is term that was invented by talk show hosts who are not known for their semantic scruples. Like most bumper-sticker slogans and jingoism, it is a term that is designed to provide an emotional flash, a "frisson", and a short-cut to any number of meanings that don't force people into being precise in their speech or their thinking.

For a while, one talk show host changed the term to "Islamo-Nazis" but that kind of fell flat and he returned to the original slogan.

I don't think Adams really understands, or cares, what he means also. Propaganda is all about intellectual short cuts and buzz words..it is never designed to withstand the scrutiny of critical thinking.

My life is filled with professional people who are very possibly muslim - I don't know, nor do I care.

You wrote, "Change the word "Muslim" in some of these writings to "Jew" and it could straight from Mein Kampf". When I read that it occurred to me that only 50 years ago we changed the word "Muslim" to "Japanese-Americans" and said exactly the same things.

Fear makes people careless and susceptible to this kind of rhetoric - it is far more dangerous to me that anyone with a middle eastern name.

touj
...just type "Liberal / idiots" into your search engine and you will find many sites, but you have to acturally read them if you want the information.

touj.
You speak about not generalizing and then you make wild assumptions...Do I know you? How would you know one way or the other where I get my news? I haven't posted enough for you to have formed a great deal of opinion on who I am or where I stand.

Typically, one of core things that I do post on is bias in the media. Liberals believe FoxNews is biased to the right. Even if I grant, for the sake of discussion, that Fox is biased to the right, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, NYT, BBC, PBS are biased to the left, not to mention, most films out of hollywood, television, and "documentaries" (fahrenheit 911, Sicko etc).

So, where do you get YOUR news?

I repeat:
In case you can't figure out the steps to paste the address in your computer, just type "Bush Administration / secrecy" into your search engine and you will find many sites, but you have to acturally read them if you want the information.

Touj.
I think you are correct that modern America, like most industrialized societies, has found many marriages of convenience betwewen industry and government. The ingredient lacking for fascism is oppression. At least to date, I don't believe the American government is trying to oppress its own citizens.

But my real problem with Adams' column is I do not know who he is talking about when he is talking about Islamic Fascists. I get the feeling he's not really sure either. That was the point I was trying to make, perhaps unsuccessfully, in my earlier posts. Perhaps I can look forward to learning during Islamic Fascist Awareness Week. Often when I see the term "Islamic Fascist" used, it is used as a blanket condemnation of Muslims here at TH and elsewhere. Change the word "Muslim" in some of these writings to "Jew" and it could straight from Mein Kampf.

Very specifically, is Adams talking about American Muslims or non-Americans? He cites Muslims who are opposing the First Amendment, which leads me to think he's talking about Americans here. Numerous studies have shown that the American Muslim population is among the most moderate in the world. The assimilation of American Muslims into our society has provided them with opportunities they never had previously, if they came from other countries. That's the reason very few have be lured to the darker side of Islamic extremism. Are these the "Islamic Fascists" Adams is talking about? American Muslims? If so, I think he's either off-base, using sloppy thinking or just plain paranoid.

zzx375
If you don't know how to paste an address into your computer, just type "Bush Administration - Secrecy" into your search engine. There are hundreds of sites and they're all in English.

zzx375
I posted the address to a site that lists every example, you idiot.

What more do you want, sign language?

touj still generalizing
Couldn't cite one specific example of one of those secret white house/justice department law, just "There are too many examples to relate here"?

So many secret white house laws, so little time.




196CAVTrooper
Hillary's biggest problem is that she's not the warm and fuzzy, puppy-loving, hallmark-card-sentiment spouting politician that conservatives love so much and are so swayed by.

Frankly, I think that somebody who can run such an effective campaign organization that understands the various constituencies in what is a diverse and multi-layered country is somebody who has the ability to be a no-nonsense, lets-get-real- and- skip- the -sentimentality president.

I'm not looking for a Barbie doll or the guy next door. I want smart, savvy, capable, and realistic.

T R
Nice list. Clearly from an unbiased site as indicated by the name (obviously a take on PNAC, which isn't as evil as your fellow BDS sufferers would have you believe) and the "bushco" in the ip address. The list is almost as long as the list of Clinton's buddies that have died or been killed. I'm sure that anyone who cared could make a similar list about any president. What I didn't notice was a huge number of corporate "foxes" watching over their former "henhouses." With the exception of Sec. Snow, I couldn't find ONE.

What I see here is a chicken-egg scenario - the question being whether your hatred for republicans influenced your susceptibility to ridiculously biased "information" or whether your gullibility has caused you to hat republicans.

Hate of our constitutional republic
The fascists (Communists, Naxis, & Muslims) join hands together keying hate-filled comments against our Constitutional Republic (and it's followers), which (thanks to the party comprised of communists/nazis (& some muslims) - aka Democrats)) is only a few years from becoming a socialist fascist nation. Yet, as they've infiltrated certain offices, they are allowed to condemn members of this Constitutional Republic for speaking out against the fascists (Communists, Naxis, & Muslims).

THE RETURN OF NIKITA
THE RESURRECTION OF NIKITA

BY LISA RICHARDS
OCTOBER 22, 2007

When Nikita Khrushchev gave his secret speech to the Twentieth Party Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on February 25, 1956, it sounded like a man who truly believed in freedom as he denounced Stalin. Khrushchev declared he wanted a “peaceful co-existence” with the United States and Europe...


Khrushchev never dissolved communism, nor was he any friend to the U.S.; maybe to Hollywood communists who adored him and “Uncle Joe,” but not to America. Khrushchev worked for Stalin; he did Stalin’s dirty work; he was Stalin’s second hand man turning a blind eye and never speaking up against Stalin’s atrocities, pointed out by that one audience member to the newly elected communist leader...

The truth is, Khrushchev was instrumental in helping Stalin massacre 100 million innocent souls in order to purge the Soviet Union of an unfit race after WWII—Jews.


After Khrushchev gallantly spoke of peace, he turned like the communist he was, pushing the U.S. further into the Cold War: 1. Khrushchev promised economic aid to Afghanistan and Burma only if they swore allegiance and support to the Soviet Union, 2. in 1953, Khrushchev acquired the Hydrogen Bomb thanks to the traitorous American Rosenberg’s, 3. in 1955, The Warsaw pact of military alliance with communist countries against NATO was signed. These countries pledged to use nuclear power against NATO if war broke out, 4. 1957: the Space-Race began against the United States, 5. 1966: Khrushchev launched the Sputnik Satellite, 6. Khrushchev began a propaganda war against the United States and Great Britain.

Does any of this sound presently familiar? Does it echo a bit…oh I don’t know…Putin-esque?...

fOR REST GO TO MY BLOG

copyright 2007 Lisa Richards
http://www.lisa-richards.com
E-mail: lisa-richards@lisa-richards.com

196CAVTrooper writes:
Touj... let's not leave out..
Hillary, who panders to the crowd she's speaking too. If you're a Southern Baptist, you'll hear Southern Belle Hillary (or worse, if you want Southern Baptist Hillary) If you're in the Northeast you'll hear a character from a Stephen King novel. In any case the message will be determined by the poll that her team sent out.

And if Hillary is in front a black church, you'll get black Hillary.

JMind
Well, I suppose that when TH is your only source of information you can be forgiven for your ignorance.

touj- one other thing
When I hear people who have met the President in person, they talk about how charming and eloquent he is, and that they wish that he spoke as well under the glare of the camera as he does privately. They usually come away from the private meeting liking President Bush more than ever.

Touj... let's not leave out..
Hillary, who panders to the crowd she's speaking too. If you're a Southern Baptist, you'll hear Southern Belle Hillary (or worse, if you want Southern Baptist Hillary) If you're in the Northeast you'll hear a character from a Stephen King novel. In any case the message will be determined by the poll that her team sent out.

Mountain Rose
Here is an article about Newt you might be interested in, as you seem to be an honest RWer.

Second, although the Republicans pledged to cut pork barrel spend-
ing in accord with their “Contract With America,” in 1995, Speaker
Gingrich sent a memo to the Appropriations subcommittee chairs, say-
ing that some of the Republican Members might need projects to help
RISE OF ACADEMIC EARMARKING AND ITS EFFECT ON ACADEMIC SCIENCE 99
them get reelected. So the “Contract With America” lasted only about
nine months. From that point on, the Republican Party firmly embraced
academic earmarking, as suggested by their control over the spending
committees and the growth of these projects.

http://www.aaas.org/spp/yearbook/2002/ch10.pdf

zzx375
" Who, what, when, where and how would help dispel the aura of generalization hanging about on this one."

Gee, among people who read the news every day this is pretty basic and something everybody who spends time away from their computers seems to know. Bush is famous for his secrecy, from the secret Energy policy meetings to the secretorder for torture that was issued right after he pretended to go along with the congress and the debate principally with John McCain.

There are too many examples to relate here, but here is a list:http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/index.html

If you don't like that one there are tons of them in newspaper archives and on line.



Crazy world
I am in constant awe at the lack of common sense demonstrated in the esteemed world of academia. From suspending 5 year olds for drawing a gun, to feminist putting condoms on vegetables in the full view of young children.

Calm Down, CalmDown
Thank you for copy-and-pasting my words so many times. I AM rather proud of them!

I was, of course, speaking of people who put themselves into the public eye: our politicians and the members of talk radio, who seem to have a code to speak carefully and respectfully of their opponents.

Not every talk show host is respectful, and there are satirists, such as Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh, but when I compare the discourse of a man like Newt Gingrich, which is intellectual and dignified, to the rude and inflammatory speech of Harry Reed (wouldn't you change your name?) and Nancy P.Lousy, which is mean-spirited and continually angry, there is no contest as to who is the professional, and who is the jerk.

touj. writes:
How is it possible to be so naive and still walk around in public? Bush talks a certain way when the cameras are on just for people like you.

I suggest talking to (or reading) some of the people who know him personally, or listen to some of the off-guard moments that were picked up by microphones when he didn't know they were on.

Touj, I got a hot flash for you. People tend to speak differently, based upon the situation, whether formal or informal speech is required, and with whom they are associating. I can assure you that when I am in class giving lectures, my speech is quite different than when I am in a conversation with friends and family. In class it is formal, correct, and precise. When I am in informal situations, the fifth generation Texan comes out, in that I use colloqiualism, my accent becomes a little more Texan, and I am a little less than refined in my use of four letter words.

Rose
Over-the-top rhetoric?

Try listening to conservative talk radio.

JMind
I left out the various instances where liberal courts invent new rights and create law by judicial fiat. I too was trying to keep it simple.

Have to say I'm pulling for the Rockies now that my Tribe's eliminated.

;-)

Rose
You were the one who characterized conservatives as people who "deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech."

You were not talking about Bush. You were generalizing about conservatives, which obviously prompted Calmdown to respond by posting actual conservative attempts to "avoid rudeness in kind" --

Your memory notwithstanding, you were positing that all conservatives are gentlemen, speak respectfully, blah blah, and all liberals " say things that shock, using rude, inflamatory and sometimes obscene langage designed to provoke their oponent and hurt their feelings, yet this is not hate speech."

You are observing one form of behavior to define one-third of the American population, and another behavior to describe another third.




zzx375
Come on...you know...the "secret" laws. These were the laws used to "give" Bush the presidency, "lie" us into Iraq, and listen to all our calls whenever they feel like it.

196CAVTrooper
Actually, I have to forgive touj for not understanding the branches of government..I live in Massachusetts and our judges like to create laws from time to time.


Reply to Touj
Touj sez "...How is it possible to be so naive and still walk around in public? Bush talks a certain way when the cameras are on just for people like you. I suggest talking to (or reading) some of the people who know him personally, or listen to some of the off-guard moments that were picked up by microphones when he didn't know they were on."
*********************************************

This is one of the difference between conservatives and Lefties: that we know there is a difference between private and public discourse.

If you have to eavesdrop on the private conversations of a public official, in order to find him say anything negative, that says more about you than it does about him.

All I have to do to hear Lefties say hateful things is to watch CSPAN or the evening news. The nasty, over-the-top rhetoric that the Lefties on Capital Hill engage in on a daily basis is depressing. Sometimes I wonder how they sleep? Perhaps such talk is cathartic to them.

One would think that the voters would prefer people who engage in public self control and comport themselves with a professional demeanor while engaging in government business, but it seems that the Lefties have watched the Jerry Springer Show once too often, and think it is normal to act like an undisciplined toddler from the Senate floor.

That is, on occasions when they are sober and conscious.

Touj generalizing
"...Given the secret laws that are passed by a white house and justice department that violate the constitution and are never made public, this doesn't seem to be that radical an idea."

Who, what, when, where and how would help dispel the aura of generalization hanging about on this one.

touj. You don't seem to understand...
Legislative branch: Create law (vote to send to Executive for approval/denial)

Executive Branch: sign into law or veto

Judicial Branch: determine whether or not law is constitutional or not


Earth to Chairman Mao
Who is talking about Communists and Marxists? Who is defending socialism? Who was even talking about Socialism?????

I'll bet your closet is full of army camoflage and your cellar is full of bottled water and guns.

touj
"That was the conservative mantra and the excuse for a costly and pointless war"

And...ummm...how is this statement not a generalization?

Is this hate spech?
"But communism abolishes all eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property." Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto.
xxx

How come Socialist hate is the highest form of morality yet, hate against the evil enemies of individual freedom is somehow been turned into a fascist reaction?

Republicans: when are you going to learn that your very existence depends on defeating these ideas?

Socialist are not trying to improve you they are trying to extinguish you.

My first encounter with Leftie hate
When I was a new Christian, and a relatively new conservative, I attended a popular and well known Mega-Church in the San Fernando Valley.

There was an important official from the LAPD who used to attend my church as well, and from time to time, he was asked to speak to the congregation. He was a very nice man, and spoke respectfully about everyone.

One day, he told a story about how he was invloved in a dangerous situation that could have erupted into a race riot, and was able to dispel the tension, and later the crowd, using friendliness and humor.

Around that time, he was being considered to replace Darrell Gates, and I was hoping for him to ascend to the position that I believed he deserved.

Shortly after that, I was over at my mother's home, and her Leftie husband was ranting about this man and calling him a racist.

Racist?

I had heard many things he had said about people of other races, and nothing he ever said led me to believe that he was a racist. He was respectful and cheerful, and always used neutral or positive language. He always chose his words carefully, to avoid offense.

So I was shocked to hear this. When I asked what made my stepfather think he was a racist, the reply was that the man was a racist because he was a racist, and though he had never met the man, while I had, he refused to listen to a word I said.

As time went by, I discovered that any time I politely disagreed with logical arguments, he would shout me down and tell me that I should not just parrot back things that I hear from others. He would never use logical arguements in return, just vitriol. Incidently, these were often my own arguments that I would come up with on my own, but he would not believe that, because he was convinced that a person could only be conservative through brainwashing.

Over time, I have found that this is the typical method of the left, to just talk louder and faster, call me names and never address the issues I bring up.

Rose said
"No, I am talking about political leaders, like George Bush, who goes out of his way to speak like a gentleman, though he does have a "down-home" dialect."

How is it possible to be so naive and still walk around in public? Bush talks a certain way when the cameras are on just for people like you.

I suggest talking to (or reading) some of the people who know him personally, or listen to some of the off-guard moments that were picked up by microphones when he didn't know they were on.

freetothink and others...
Most of us have fallen for LD's posts the first time we have read them so to call a new poster (Tom in this case) dumb for falling for an LD post is not called for--just a quick note about LD's proclivity to write satire is sufficient.

And yes, we have to continually do so since he is so good at it and there are always new readers/posters to TH who read one of his missives for the first time. The good news is that LD writes in such a way that his "rantings" are not too far from the liberal talking points of the Daily Kos or moveon.org, etc. That is what makes them so good. And that can lead true liberals (aka Conservatives) to misconstrue his satire for the beliefs of a liberal.

Treasonous Republican Hater
-no. an example would be how bush has put industry lobbyists into key regulatory committees designed to oversee those industries. sit down little boy.

Please provide the names and the industries they were lobbying for before they went to work in this administration.




Reply to Gestell
Gestell writes: Monday, October, 22, 2007 5:48 AM
"reply to Mountain Rose
What planet are you on? Do you even read a lot of your own posts, let alone many others on TH?
If you do, how can your write such nonsense as the following:
"Conservatives deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech." I read TH daily and find virtually nothing that resembles what you say. Liberals are called every name imaginable (and a few that aren't), are constantly linked to every vice and sin the fevered minds of conservatives can come up with, and routinely characterized as enemies of everything decent. I know, I know; you're going to say that all of the above is just accurate description, and never mean-spirited, crude, or insulting. Talk about George Orwell!"
***************************************

Gee Gestell, so glad to know you are a fan! I am flattered that you read EVERYTHING I say!!!

I do admit that I engage in saying rude and deliberatly offensive things, designed to bait Leftie Losers. I was not defending myself, because I know that I say things to make you mad.

No, I am talking about political leaders, like George Bush, who goes out of his way to speak like a gentleman, though he does have a "down-home" dialect.

Gray Ghost
Is it possible for you to express yourself without generalizing? Your post is just a litany of silly accusations against one-third of the American population - do you really think that liberals don't write long columns about Islamic "hate speech" because they are afraid for their lives?

I wasn't even afraid for my life on 9/11, or 9/12, or 9/13 etc. That was the conservative mantra and the excuse for a costly and pointless war.

We Have Lost Sight of Mr. Adams' Topic
This thread, although very interesting, has lost sight of Mike Adams' topic; i.e., "Why Islamic Fascists Get Away with Hate Speech".

He explains it quite well. To the Liberal mind, only the Liberal Left has the "Right" to label speech as "Hate Speech". The Liberal Left is scared to death of the "Islamic Fascists". (They realize if an assault team of 100 Al Quida types were to be transported to San Francisco, with enough ammunition; then the population of this city would be reduced in short time by at least 25%.)

In other words, the Liberal Left are intellectual bullies. They will not label Islamic Fascists' speech as "Hate Speech"; because they are afraid of getting killed.

Ken
Appreciated your post.

I agree that the U.S. cannot be characterized as fascist for many reasons, but I wonder if the person who wrote the original post may have been referring to the growing partnership between corporate power and government. Politicans all the way to the President who are obligated by virtue of large donations and gifts find themselves cooperating by writing laws and regulations that favor industry and profit, even when they work against the common good. We have especially seen this in the thank-you gifts that were rollbacks to environmental regulations directed at mining and corporate agriculture. Then, of course, there are the secret meetings and agreements with energy corporations.

Some people are now calling our country "corporatist" and others see it as a gradual slide into fascism. Given the secret laws that are passed by a white house and justice department that violate the constitution and are never made public, this doesn't seem to be that radical an idea.

TomMY Boy
LD writes in satire, get it! Good lord you can't be that dumb.
You may want to try other site and work your way up to this one.
Your just not ready for the majors kid.

LD...
Your description of fascism and socialism is way too factual! What is up with such a posting!?

But thanks for putting some clarification on what fascism is really about. It is so funny to hear the term bandied about by those who have no clue as to its real meaning or any historical context.

Discussion with "progressive"
In an unproductive "discussion" with a proclaimed progressive, I was informed that Imus' remark "nappy-headed ho's" was hate speech but Ahmajinedad's mumblings at Columbia were a legitimate "differing point of view."

I didn't bother to respond.

Clarification
The last paragraph in my earlier post is NOT Justice O'Connor's words, those are mine.

Beginning with "Therefore, it is ok..."

And, here is an interesting definition of hate speech, from Erwin Chemerinsky, Dean of UC Irvine School of Law:

"Hate speech is speech that expresses animosity on the basis of race, national origin, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexual orientation."

Note that Dean Chemerinsky, while a very learned man, is a liberal of the most left leaning sort. His definition is based on an expression of animosity, whatever that is. Is that to be interpreted by the listener? Or by the intent of the speaker? Or by that creature of the law, the Average Reasonable Person?


TruLib
Ownership entails responsibility for failure; control does not. If a business fails due to oppressive regulations, then it can be said that the business just wasn't properly managed by the owners. Likewise, there are budget constraints and a requirement for profitability under fascist control.

With socialism, there is no requirement that a business be properly managed because any financial failings will be covered by the deep pockets of government. Hence, an industry must still perform within financial limitations under fascism, whereas it can be incompetently managed and operate at a loss under socialism.


SCOTUS definition
in Virginia v Black (2003), our US Supreme Court decided a case involving a burning cross, and gave some instructive language on hate speech.

The court reviewed the definitions of "fighting words", and "speech advocating imminent lawless action", then discussed speech that is a "true threat."

From Justice O'Connor: “True threats” encompass those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals...

The speaker need not actually intend to carry out the threat. Rather, a prohibition on true threats “protect[s] individuals from the fear of violence” and “from the disruption that fear engenders,” in addition to protecting people “from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur.” ...

Intimidation in the constitutionally proscribable sense of the word is a type of true threat, where a speaker directs a threat to a person or group of persons with the intent of placing the victim in fear of bodily harm or death..."

Therefore, it is ok to speak to others in a way that means "I hate you because you are..." as long as there is no intimidation or threat of violence. Speech that communicates disgust, "you make me want to puke," abhorrence, ridicule, and revulsion are examples of acceptable, protected speech.




Tom
Being a newcomer, and regardless of which side of the political fence you sit on, you will find that all you have to do to get called vicious names is to disagree with one point that is agreed upon by three or four of the people who pretty much spend all day every day on TownHall.

Most of the time, "thoughtful and intelligent" conservative views are not what emanate from this site. Although their are many many posters who have a good deal of history, experience and logic embedded in their brains and backgrounds, I find it to be a rare thread on TH in which I can actually learn something or read something that gives me food for thought. It's too bad, because there really ARE a few people here who are good debaters and accomplished writers and presenters. But they are easily drowned out by the foot-stompers and name-callers. There's A LOT of anger on this site.

Most of the time, TH is just nasty name-calling (except for Loyal Democrat who is actually pretty funny and offers a good comic-relief break.) Calmdown is correct in what he/she writes here.

In short, some of the articles here are interesting, but there is a lot of intolerance and fury when you get to the comments sections.

Words matter, Pt. 2
The word "fascist" also implies a solution that may or may not be the right one. We know how to deal with fascists from our experience from World War II, right?? And so the proper way to deal with this threat is a Global War on Terror, right?

Maybe not so much. Think back to the old American frontier. There were Indian tribes that wanted to be our friends, there were those who at least were not our enemies and there were those that wanted to battle any white intrusions into their territory. But then the prevailing policy became the oft-quoted, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," our own actions united the tribes and made settlement harder than it could have been.

And that's the major problem with the "Islamic Fascist" policy of the Global War on Terror. It unites, at least in our minds and increasingly in theirs, the fact that we are enemies of all these groups. Certainly there are those that are enemies of America, but there are many others whose concerns are purely local and have nothing to do with us. If our policies understood these distinctions and did a better job identifying our enemies, we could do a better job exploiting the differences between them. That would make our effort to defeat our real enemies much easier.

Loyal Democrat
Hitler described the Nazi movement as a socialist one. Is there really a difference between ownership and control? Sounds like lipstick on the pig.

Words matter, Pt. 1
Let me first say that I don't give a whit about being politically correct, although I do not generally try to offend people if I can help it. Call it good manners, politeness or concern for the feelings of others. My parents raised me that way and I guess I have to live with it. Usually I find that I can make the points I want to make in a constructive way rather than being insulting.

But words do matter, not because of the offense they might give, but they way they inform our thinking. That's why I object to the term "Islamic fascists." Although the philosophy of many Wahhabis and other Islamic radicals is certainly oppressive and dangerous, calling them fascists tends to make them look more dangerous than they really are.

Fascists, at least in the technical definition, are those who combine the power of the state with the economic power of their nation in order to impose oppression. Think back to the fascist regimes we fought in World War II. Although the old Soviet Union was a "leftist" state and not a right-wing one, where fascism is generally said to originate, it exhibited many more fascist tendencies than Islamists.

Islamic radicals are a much different animal and to defeat them, we have to understand the differences. They are generally stateless organizations, lacking governmental or economic power. But like the father of modern terrorism, Vladimir Lenin, they understand that their use of terrorism is a sword that cuts with two edges. First they scare people and undercut their sense of security with terrorist acts. But Lenin also noted that unwise governments also tend to overreact and do unwise things to combat terrorists. In that way, the government tends to alienate more people and drive them into the terrorists' arms. Our national intelligence services have been warning us about this effect of our policies against Islamic extremism for several years now.

calmdown
My point is that accurate descriptions are not automatically “uncivil” or “unpleasant”. TR’s posts epitomize ignorance and hate....I’m sorry I didn’t use the PC terms you might have preferred.

LD, oustanding explanation...should be mandatory reading in high schools across our country.

A little help for those that need it...
Fascism - The private ownership of the means of production, subject to total government regulation.

A business is privately held, but is subjected to heavy regulation by the government. This is the definition of fascism, pure and simple. It is an economic term, nothing else. The fact that Nazi (National Socialist) Germany was fascist has caused the term to be misapplied by those wanting to discredit their political opponents by comparing them to Nazis.

Nazism has an allegience to Socialism in that both seek government control over the means of production. They just differ in the idea of private ownership. Fascism is just a bit more tolerant of individual rights than socialism is in that fascists allow some semblance of private ownership of the means of production.

Anyone that promotes heavy government regulation over privately owned industry is a fascist. Those that seek government ownership of the means of production is a socialist.

Hence, government controlled health care that utilizes private hospitals is fascism. If the government takes ownership of all hospitals, then we have socialized medicine.

Hope this helps...


Icedog
I think you missed my point, which wasn't about the Treasonous Republicans post, it was about Rose's post.

There is a reason that I never replied to Treasonous' post.

Post This
Conservatives are from Mars and Liberals are going to hell without the handbasket......

Rose and DJ Detloff
Rose, here's another example of the measured, civil responses that you praise conservatives for:

"Your comment was one of the most inane things I have ever read and I feel stupider for having read it!"

My word, thoughtful and intelligent conservative views are just popping out of TH like bunnies today!!




calmdown
Before you try to criticize my response to “treasonous republicans”, I ask you to please read the comments he posted.

Now tell me, are his comments “ignorant and hate-filled” or not? I stand by my comments.

LD You Are Special!
I like your style. The sheer irony of your post is impresive. You definitely would be my choice for the Comedy Club in LaLa land. I can just see those tinfoil heads lapping it up. And it wouldn't dawn on them that they have been set up until some conservative told them so. And even then it would be met by disbelief and accusations of the ever popular "Hate Speech" for mentioning that they are playing the buffoon to your standup. LMAO! I love it!
Thanks again.

Beowolf
I think you just hate Lilly because she has about 55 IQ points on you and you're jealous.

Rose and Truthseeker
Rose said:

"Conservatives deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech."

Truthseeker wrote:

"i've come to
the point that i just skip over the liberal idiot posts. they know no truth and so are not worth reading. blather, thats what they say. and bs, and the depths of their ignorance is amazing."

Pandm wrote:

" Mr Treasonous really isn't foaming at the mouth. It is merely spittle mixed with a large quantity of gray ooozzzee from his brain"


These must be more examples of the conservative eloquence and respect you were talking about.

Rose and Beckie
Rose, your wrote:

"Conservatives deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech.

Beckie wrote:

"Good Lord!! Your mother lets you out of the house that gelatinous gray matter so closely resembling Jello that you're dangerous to your self and others? Please go back into the house and put your pretty white jacket back on, you might get hurt out here. Obviously a product of local "public" schools and a liberal arts degree."

Is this another example of the civil and polite conservative discourse you were talking about?

Fascist US?
I read TR's post and had to laugh. All those who cry about the horrors of the Patriot Act need to look into the jurisprudence of other nations. Those "enlightened" European nations have far more oppressive laws under normal circumstances. Would our civil libertarians ever tolerate the UK's official secrets act? Would they embrace the frequent presumption of guilt in several legal systems? Would they accept the incredible investigatory powers afforded to many of our more enlightened European neighbors?

Sorry, but the small increases in state power in the Patriot Act still leave us miles behind most of Europe in the authoritarian realm. Sorry whiners, but the US is still nowhere near the "Fascist Gulag of Amerikkka" you dream it is.

(Sorry if you can no longer make unmonitored calls to known terrorists overseas, I know what a hardship that can be...)

Loyal Democrat
The elegance with which you proved Dr. Adam's column is beautiful. There is no way to have intelligent conversation with someone who blinds theirself to logic and refuses to consider the opposite point of view for even a second. To you this will be hate speech. Your comment was one of the most inane things I have ever read and I feel stupider for having read it!

Rose, and Icedog
Rose wrote:

"Conservatives deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech.Conservatives deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech.


Ice dog wrote:

"You are the textbook caricature of a frothing lunatic leftist. From your posts, it appears your unbridled hatred has combined with your staggering ignorance and produced an extremely pathetic, but potentially dangerous and unstable individual.


Rose - Is this the kind of respectful conservative speech you were referring to?




Dr. Adams is spot on
in this post. I especially like his explanation--
"Islamic advocacy of violence is not classified as “hate speech” because it induces fear, not anger."

It is visible in the Left wing community(MSM, liberal pols, academia,etal. You know who you are). Notice they never showed the Mohammed Cartoons but are willing to show any desecration of the Christian Religion. The difference--we won't blow up your office--we'll pray for you.
Jimmy Carter will go anyplace to criticise Bush but folds up into butt kissing mode when he is in Cuba. By the way Jimmy--thanks for Chavez in Venezuela. And poor Michael Moore had to sit next to this simpleton at the Democratic convention. Michael must have been mortified. And who can ever forget Dan Rather's fawning interview with Sadaam.

That being said, however, I must say that the attacks on the opposition posters at this site has fallen to HuffPo/Kos level. We should be adults and ignore the silliness. If they don't want to discuss issues intelligently, it is their loss. It's the same problem that conservatives had in the last election and Christians have had over the years. Christian and conservative ideals are valid but some conservatives and Christians are not ideal.


RE: calmdown
calmdown wrote:
My favorite example of this is the conservative reaaaction to Lilly, who has never delivered a personal insult, called anyone a name, and whose posts are always only an expression of an opinion or an account of some study or article she has read.

.....

Nor has she ever once uttered anything that was anywhere within the realm of something that anyone with a brain would say.

Ok, that's a lie. She did ONCE utter something that was not just complete nonsense.

Then calmdown wrote:
You were better when you were writing about the sex life of vegetables.
There's just no substitute for experience.

.....

Oh, the STAGGERING irony.

Answer all-too-simple
Becaust thats the only type of speech of which Islamonazis are capable!

Tom and Marine43...
I'll let you in on a little secret. Loyal Dem is the Alexander Pope of the TH forums.

The founding fathers would.......

......definitely have been accused of hate speech especially after making reference to God in their founding documents.

Could the ACLU go back and file an attack on them based on what they had to say.??. Is their a judge with the bells to agree with the ACLU on such a charge.??.

Now we're getting down to the nitty gritty.



treasonous republicans
You are the textbook caricature of a frothing lunatic leftist. From your posts, it appears your unbridled hatred has combined with your staggering ignorance and produced an extremely pathetic, but potentially dangerous and unstable individual.

I used to believe people like you only existed in fictional stories...please seek help, seriously.

Typical
Dr. Adams, great job...one of your best.

It still amazes me how Dr. Adams breaks liberals down to their very core and so clearly points out their illogical and ignorant ideology.

....and then the libs, just like clockwork, show up on here and validate every point Mike has just made.

Tom & Truthseeker

According to ANN:

If liberals had any brains they would be___________.

Guess you can fill in the blank without additional help. Semper Fi.......



Uncle Max
Your instructions to Tom should have made clear he was to stand CLOSE to the intersection and not IN the intersection. Obviously he needs all the help he can get.

I nominate and second the following.....

........as best post of the day as it most accurately describes what Mike Adams brings to our attention.

Thanks to the author(ess), Mountain Rose writes: Monday, October, 22, 2007 12:31 AM
Hate Speech is anything a Leftie says is Hate Speech

Read and vote. Results will not be published as this poster has already decided the outcome.



i've come to
the point that i just skip over the liberal idiot posts. they know no truth and so are not worth reading. blather, thats what they say. and bs, and the depths of their ignorance is amazing.

Uncle Max
I suppose I must apologize to you. I'm man enough to admit that I indeed missed it. Being a first-time poster here, I read that literally. However, just when you think someone can't be that stupid and what they're saying has to be a joke, some leftist comes by and actually does it or says it with complete sincerity. So you will excuse my literal reading I trust. Damn, I hate when that happens. Can I blame it on Monday and Monday morning at that?

did you say intelligent response?
http://www.netanyahu.org/peopthatneve.html
PEOPLE THAT NEVER EXISTED IN HISTORY NEEDS A USEFUL PAST.

It is curious that so often those who purport to scorn old myths go on to make up and promote new myths...In his book on the so-called "Palestinian people," Kimmerling and his associate Joel Migdal seek to provide a suitable, useful past for the "Palestinians." In line with Kimmerling's own words, they promote the relatively new myth of a Palestinian people --which never existed in history. The book covers sociological and historical aspects of the so-called Palestinians, while neglecting the conceptual problem of a "Palestinian people" almost totally. The history presented in the book is rather superficial and often wrong, while the questions of when the notion of a "Palestinian people" first emerged and who conceived it and who promoted it and why and how it developed are neglected. This is curious since the sub-title of the book, Making of a People, would lead the reader to think that these questions would be answered in the book. After all, the formation of a people has to do with, among other things, when (and if!) it became aware of itself as in some way a people, a distinct people, different from others, and when (and if) others came to think of it as a distinct, separate people, and whom do the "Palestinians" see as being part of their collectivity and who is left out. The authors do not prove that a "Palestinian people" exists, rather they assume it, consistently using the term. At the same time they neglect the political impact of the new notion, the new label, in contrast with the earlier notion of "Palestinian Arabs" or possible alternative notions, such as "Arab Muslims of Palestine," etc. The usefulness of a separate "Palestinian" identity as a weapon of psychological warfare against Israel does not seem to occur to them.

goldilocks & Uncle Max
Where do I pick up that sign?

Uncle Max
I've never really considered getting a labotomy, but perhaps that would allow me to "get it." I suppose it would be easier to go through life as a simpleton, letting someone else take care of me. Search as I do, I just can't find any excitement in that kind of existence. Plus, I've seen what it's done to you and LD.

Tom, Uncle Max was a bit harse in
pointing out that LD is a satarist and you as a newer poster here did not immediately recognize that as I am sure Uncle Max knew from the first read. Everyone here has lit into LD until being informed that he is a satarist and is merely taking the liberal viewpoint to its inevitible illogical conclusion.

Mike, another great article describing the lunacy and hypocracy of the leftists.

Satire
Tom and Horn.

Loyal Democrat was speaking tongue-in-cheek.

Uncle Max
I guess that's an honor coming from you. A true hit and run. Care to elaborate?

tr
Under your ridiculous definition of fascism, FDR would be a fascist.

So, how about the leaders of Burma, or Myanmar as they prefer to call it? Are they fascist, and if so, are they more so than Bush?

Most of us think of fascism as heavily oppressive. We think of Iran and Burma as heavily oppressive, but not the U.S. When MoveOn.org gets shut down, I'll start calling the U.S. fascist. But we aren't even close to what is happening in those countries.

did you say ihcite to violence?
e.g.
From HumanEvents 01/30/07:
For America is on a collision course with an Iran of 70 million, and the folks who stampeded us into Iraq are firing pistols in the air again.
At the annual Herzliya Conference, U.S. presidential aspirants, neoconservatives and Israeli hawks were all invoking the Holocaust and warning of the annihilation of the Jews.
Israel's "Bibi" Netanyahu, who compares Iran's Ahmadinejad to Hitler, said: "The world that didn't stop the Holocaust last time can stop it this time. ... Who will lead the effort against genocide if not us? The world will not stand up on behalf of the Jews if the Jews do not stand up on behalf of the world."
Said former Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz: "Iran is the heart of the problem in the Middle East. It is the most urgent threat facing the world, and needs to be dealt with before it's too late." After meeting with the Department of State's Nicholas Burns, Mofaz called 2007 "a year of decision."
Richard Perle assured the conference that Bush will attack Iran rather than see it acquire nuclear weapons capabilities. Newt Gingrich also brought his soothing touch to the proceedings: "(C)itizens who do not wake up every morning and think about possible catastrophic civilian casualties are deluding themselves.

From HumanEvents 03/20/07:
For it was Pelosi who quietly agreed to strip out of the $100 billion funding bill for Iraq a provision that would have required President Bush to seek congressional approval before launching any new war on Iran.
"Last week, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi received a smattering of boos when she bad-mouthed the war effort during a speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, and the Democratic leadership, responding to concerns from pro-Israel lawmakers, was forced to strip from a military appropriations measure a provision meant to weaken President Bush's ability to respond to threats from Iran."

horn
you were a close second

calmdown: Really?
“My favorite example of this is the conservative reaaaction to Lilly, who has never delivered a personal insult, called anyone a name, and whose posts are always only an expression of an opinion or an account of some study or article she has read. Yet conservatives (including you, Rose) have called her vicious, crazy, dishonest, unpatritiotic, etc., etc., etc.”

Really? Do you realize “chivalry” is just another form of sexism? Poor “lilly” is a big girl and is quite capable of defending herself. I don’t recall anyone employing profanity any ad hominem attack directed at Ms. Lilly. . Unlike DU and DK, TH doesn’t allow profanity.

WRT the creative employment of vegetables, I guess who would know…


Beckie
Mr Treasonous really isn't foaming at the mouth.
It is merely spittle mixed with a large quantity of gray ooozzzee from his brain.

Tom
Your OUTSTANDING response to our hero LD means that you have won the coveted right to stand out in traffic close to the busiest thoroughfare where you reside with a sign hung about your neck proclaiming:

I DON'T GET IT

I'm sure that I speak for many of my fellows here when I extend you my (our) heartiest congratulations on your accomplishment

Gestell: Really?
“I read TH daily and find virtually nothing that resembles what you say. Liberals are called every name imaginable (and a few that aren't), are constantly linked to every vice and sin the fevered minds of conservatives can come up with, and routinely characterized as enemies of everything decent.”

Really? First, show some intellectual honesty by kindly referring to yourself as being a "Neo-Marxist" (I’ve read you blog) since most people who refer to themselves as being "liberal" are the most "illiberal" people I have ever met WRT entertaining the notion of "valid" opinions contrary to their own. Secondly, on TH there are examples of ham-fisted ad hominem attacks on both sides of the spectrum (e.g., one left-wing nut stated emphatically that I should have been "fragged" by the enlisted men under my charge.) However, said attacks do not compare to the vitriol & profanity one would receive on left-wing sites like DK and DU if one were to make the mistake of being open minded and posting an opinion contrary to the “Bush Derangement Syndrome” socialist group think.

Keeping Hate from the Masses
The definition of Hate Speech is short and simple - so pay attention.

"If I hate what you're saying, or what I think you're trying to say, you're guilty of hate speech."

Accordingly, since liberals clearly comprise the intellectual base of this great country they are the only segment qualified to hate anything or anyone with impunity. Hence, only conservatives (or neo-cons) can be deemed guilty of "Hate Speech".

All Loyal Democrat, et-al are trying to say is that the founders of this country weren't serious when they penned the words "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech..." Indeed, what they meant was "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech except in cases where it causes someone else to become offended, to disagree or to cry..."

Too Dumb To Respond To
Loyal Democrat's comments on Mike's article are in point of fact a perfect example of the new definition of "hate speech." They, of course, fall under the first definition of hate speech, which is "speech that is too dumb to merit an intelligent response." My comments will certainly be characterized as "hate speech" by Loyal Democrat under the second definition, "speech for which the listener is too dumb to offer an intelligent response." However, for the rest of you I'd like to point out that I don't have rulers, save my God. I am a free man.

How's this for hate speech?
http://WWW.MEMRI.ORG Special Report #1, November 1, 2002

'Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: "The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs and Other Animals"'

That works for me

Rule # 1
"treasonous republicans writes: Monday, October, 22, 2007 6:31 AM
stunned
who is a fascist? the united states government is more of a fascist state than anything else on the planet. the muslim world hardly has the infrastructure to be fascists."

...looks like you did to me.

treasonous republicans
According to Webster
From the Latin word fascismo a little before Mussolini time.

look it up.

A political philosophy .........a dictoral leader, severe economic and social regimentation and forcible suppression of opposition. Well that describes our Republic, where do you get such ideas.


I guess you just want to bring out the worst in people. I have almost done the unthinkable and used unintelligent remarks to characterize you, I have to stop reading such uninformed posts, is there an ignore button here.

treasonous republicans writes:
oldrelayer
fascism was first called corporatism by mussolinni. it has to do pretty much with a union of corporations and government and then a strong national identity (with us or against us). the nazis were definitely fascists. as is the bush administration

So when Bill Clinton hooked up with Loral to sell missle technology to Red China did that make him a Facist?

T.R. is the reason toys don't have lead paint anymore.

treasonous republicans writes:
mike adams
"Why Islamic Fascists Get Away With Hate Speech"

- how many times do you have to read this to realize the irony of the statement on it's face. fascists? you are a buffoon.


The above is proof that terrorism works.

love and hate
In America we have the right to love who we please and hate whom we please. I guess we should only have 'love speech'...or pleasing speech. lol. I would think lying is hate speech or slander. If so, the biggest purveyors of hate speech is the US Congress and the WH.

Liberals do not fear Muslim Fascists
because they do not believe that they mean what they say.

Since most liberals do not mean what they say, they project their own mindset on the Islamic Fascists and, just as when Hitler made no secret of what he meant to do, and just as they watched him achieve his goals on the way to doing exactly what he said he would do, they persisted in saying He Does Not Really Mean That ... they cannot accept the fact that the Islamic Fascists really mean to drop a stone wall on the heads of their fellow homosexuals and behead Madonna and Britney. All the adversaries they have met to this point have simply tried to reason with them; they have no experience of someone putting a rope around their necks with the intention of hanging them from a hook on a crane -- so they continue to ignore what the Muslim Fascists say because they cannot believe they mean it.

Well now
Rights are not "granted." They theoretically exist without permission, such as the rights to "free speech, "abortion," "a job," "affordable health care," "a living wage" and "chicken done right." among the thousands of other "rights" proclaimed by the left.

treasonous republicans....
"who is a fascist? the united states government is more of a fascist state than anything else on the planet. the muslim world hardly has the infrastructure to be fascists."
Good Lord!! Your mother lets you out of the house that gelatinous gray matter so closely resembling Jello that you're dangerous to your self and others? Please go back into the house and put your pretty white jacket back on, you might get hurt out here. Obviously a product of local "public" schools and a liberal arts degree.

(Warning: The PC Police have deemed the above statements to be Hate Speech and the transmission of said speech may induce hysteria and rabid foaming at the mouth. If you have recieved this post in error, please delete it from your files.)

treasonous republicans writes
""Hate speech is verbal communication that induces anger due to the listener’s inability to offer an intelligent response.

Because this inability to offer an intelligent response is due to one of two reasons, there are really two different types of hate speech: 1) Speech that is too dumb to merit an intelligent response, and 2) Speech for which the listener is too dumb to offer an intelligent response.""

You broke rule #1, your hate speech regarding the US as biggest facist does not merit an itelligient response. In addition you incorrectly interpreted STUNNED's statement as hate speech, but it was not, as rule #2 so clearly indicates, you my friend are just too stupid to elicit an intelligient response.

calmdown
I agree with you. While I hardly ever agree with Lilly (she is a neolib of the first order) she does not deserve the rancor ladeled on her by a lot of folks on TH.

Hate speech-REVERSAL of free speech
If hate speech were WRONG, we would have to grant ANYONE the right to say ANYTHING.
We know it when we hear it, like porn. No further definition is ALLOWED, nor will be tolerated.
Hate speech CANNOT, by definition, come FROM a (self-admitted) member of a minority. You ARE a member of a group IF YOU SAY SO.
BECAUSE we feel your pain (and we self-admit to being a member of your group) WE can speak for you.

sheeple
Loyal democrat, Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa wow that must be some good koolaide.

Oldrelayer
The reason homosexuality is not allowed in Iran: makes the goats jealous.

Buzzwords
"Hate speech" is just another neolib buzzword. It is not meant to mean anything, any more than "neocon" .

(Ask any neolib what a neocon is and why he uses the term in the way (s)he does and (s)he he'll stare at you blankly. (I. on the other hand, can tell you exactly what a neolib is)).

Neolibs are big on buzzwords, since they are intentionally vague. The term "feminist" is a neolib buzzword. No matter how you define feminism, you'll immediately get hordes of wild-eyed harpies up in your face, screaming that that"s NOT what feminism is.

The terms "racist" and "homophobe" are other terms used as buzzwords by neolibs. While they have specific dictionary meanings, they are most often used by the left to label anyone who criticizes anyone or anything connected to blacks or gays.

LD...Welcome back...
...where you been,man?

Hate speech: Speech that I disagree with.

End of discussion.

TR, huh?
They don't have the infrastructure? Talk about not having a clue. I heard Larry King on the radio many years ago say that blacks could not be racist because they weren't in a position of power as a minority to affect the lives of whites. This kind of ignornance is so far out there, you just can't make that stuff up.

TR, try living in the middleast sometime. You just may get a clue.

Treasonous republicans
I normally do not get involved with this kind of thing but I can’t help myself this morning, this is just too outrageous.

I suspect you don't have a clue what the real meaning of fascism is. True it has been diluted and used to call any group you don't like a fascist group. But generally it is accepted that it means oppressive, few would argue although you might that the Nazis were fascist. The only things that I can think of as oppressive about our good country is some of the things we needed to do after 9-11, and that is so mild really a minor inconvenience that most people are more that willing to live with to hopefully have a safer society. Although it is scary that officials to test the system were able to get onto a plane 8 out of 10 times with a fake bomb.

Oppressive is Iran. When Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said they didn’t have any homosexuals it was one of the things that wasn’t a lie, they have killed them all, now that is oppressive. Many in this country might not like homosexuals but we sure don’t kill them.

I am trying to understand where someone gets these outrageous ideas, or do you just like to see the backlash from saying such unintelligent things.

Mike Adams
You were better when you were writing about the sex life of vegetables.

There's just no substitute for experience.

Gestell and Rose
Sorry, Rose - Gestell is right - your posts are often among the most vivid examples of name-callihng and insult.

My favorite example of this is the conservative reaaaction to Lilly, who has never delivered a personal insult, called anyone a name, and whose posts are always only an expression of an opinion or an account of some study or article she has read. Yet conservatives (including you, Rose) have called her vicious, crazy, dishonest, unpatritiotic, etc., etc., etc.

Like Gestell, I found your post above jaw-dropping. I hope you won't mind if I follow up with examples over the next few days.


Loyal Democrat
You are correct because hate speech is any speech directed at informing the People that the Constitution is being circumvented. It matters not how much money is taken from the workers pocket and used to better only one person (college Grant) or one segment(Katrina victims)as long as it meets the "Greater Good" test. To H*ll with the Constitution.

Mike, you're wrong
"Islamic advocacy of violence is not classified as 'hate speech' because it induces fear, not anger."

I have yet to see any evidence that leftists fear the Muslims when they advocate violence. Even when they engage in violence that is directed against leftists (like the murder of Theo van Gogh), I have yet to see the slightest evidence that the left is either fearful or angry about this.

I've argued with leftists many times not only here at TownHall but elsewhere on the Internet trying to get through to them that MUSLIMS ARE THEIR ENEMY, but I don't think I've persuaded a single leftist of this.

No, Islamic advocacy of violence isn't hate speech for the left because Muslims are "victims," and anyone who is a victim cannot engage in hate speech. This also explains why hate speech by blacks against whites doesn't count, and why hate speech by women against men doesn't count, either.

Intellectual art
OMG, loyal Democrat, get a clue.

What a great article. Feel smarter after reading it, I don't mean that sarcastically.

I once heard that Art is anything that make you feel either bad or good, if you love it or hate it, it is art.

As I was reading the article I was thinking this is Intellectual art in the sense that it makes you think, I really like that. How do subscribe to all his articles?

Griping doesn't help, email me barrym@tds.net or visit my giant blog

treasonous republicans
No need to guess where you stand. Your name sets it up perfectly. Strange that as a kid, one of the worst digs was calling a person a traitor. You are against anything that is right, good, and has been successful. Your desire is to tear down this country. From what I've read of your posts, you won't be satisfied till we meet the same fate as Rome. However, we are on to you and your ilk (great word, ilk. stole it from Groucho Marx) and will fight you.

reply to Mountain Rose
What planet are you on? Do you even read a lot of your own posts, let alone many others on TH?
If you do, how can your write such nonsense as the following:

"Conservatives deliberately comport themselves as gentlemen, speak respectfully, take the feelings of their oponents seriously, and avoid replying to rudeness in kind, yet they are supposed to engage in hate speech."

I read TH daily and find virtually nothing that resembles what you say. Liberals are called every name imaginable (and a few that aren't), are constantly linked to every vice and sin the fevered minds of conservatives can come up with, and routinely characterized as enemies of everything decent.

I know, I know; you're going to say that all of the above is just accurate description, and never mean-spirited, crude, or insulting. Talk about George Orwell!

hate speech
the left seems to imagine they can define any form of speech they dislike as hate speech. This seems to always include speaking for others. The leftist hears something that is not directed his way but KNOWS that someone, somewhere will be offended. I suppose if I was likewise as aragant to presume to know what goes on in others minds I could easily find offense. But rather I chose not to be pc and actually care less whether someone. somewhere is offened by what I might say. The left by implication is saying the only way to stop hate speech is to stop communicating both verbally and in print. We mustn"t risk offending anyone except of course that it is pc to hate and then we get our usual free pass

liberal talk radio not hate speech
To loyal democrat:
Only conservative talk radio is hate speech. The Air America types are not hate speech. They can't make money in the so called Free-Market (just try to get anything in it for Free, it is just more of Bush lies). The Air-America network is for America. They put it in the name! The Government should pay to support them!!
And anyone that disagrees with your post is is a hatter and should be taxed more.

LOL posted this before but it didn't show.

And here I was, ignorantly
thinking that there was no such thing as hate speech! All I needed was the proper definition.

At last !
A definition of "Hate Speech" that makes some sense!

Loyal: Are you trying to make me laugh?
Loyal Democrat sez: "There is not one person in the world that can equal Gore's scientific insight and intellect, yet critics come from all corners with claims that Gore's information is flawed. Such criticism harms us all, and is therefore hateful."
********************************************

Really, I can get you a job doing stand up in Beautiful Downtown Burbank! Thanks again, I needed a laugh!

I hope many of the speeches...
...will be video taped and put on the web.

The Internet is the only place this information is available.

I hope as many of the speeches as possible are put up on YouTube and other sites so people can actually see them.