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Wednesday, January 09, 2008
Matt Barber :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who's the Worst Person in the World?
by Matt Barber
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It’s not Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.  It’s not even Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot or Adolph Hitler.  No, according to Keith Olbermann — that blinkered liberal extremist who plays a newsman on TV — Wendy Wright, President of Concerned Women for America (CWA), is “the worst person in the world.”  

While discussing abstinence education during a recent interview on the Fox News Channel’s Special Report, Wright accurately pointed out that the most strident devotees of that abysmal failure tagged “comprehensive sex education” are most likely to benefit financially when children and teens become pregnant or contract sexually transmitted diseases.

During the interview, Wright hit the nail squarely on the head, saying, “In fact, they want to encourage [kids to have sex] because they benefit when kids end up having sexually transmitted diseases, unintended pregnancies and then they lead them into having abortions.  So, you have to look at the financial motives behind those who are promoting comprehensive sex ed.”

And the financial motives are staggering.  According to its own annual report, Planned Parenthood — which receives its lion’s share of profit from abortion — performed 264,943 abortions in the 2006 fiscal year, raking in an astronomical $55.8 million in profit … free and clear. 

It doesn’t take a Phi Beta Kappa to figure out that Planned Parenthood — one of the foremost cheerleaders of “comprehensive sex ed” — has a vested interest in seeing that young girls become pregnant and have abortions.  It’s a classic case of “the fox watching the hen house.”  “Comprehensive sex ed” spells money in the bank because it actually encourages kids to have sex.  It doesn’t work, and they know it.           

Well, Wright’s comments didn’t sit well with the left.  Liberal bloggers went nuts, and in a recent episode of MSNBC’s poorly rated “Countdown with Keith Olbermann,” the painfully “progressive” talking-head took issue with Wendy for pointing out this clear conflict of interest, crowning her “the worst person in the world.”

Toward the end of his decidedly obtuse monologue, Olbermann — whose joke writer is also apparently on strike — smugly quipped, “And the condoms the sex educators keep trying to make available to the kids, those are for what … water balloons?” 

Well, Poindexter, yes, in fact.  That’s precisely what kids are using them for.  Take the African AIDS epidemic.  As CWA reported a few years back, Dr. Margaret Ogola of Kenya testified at two United Nations conferences that, “‘family planners’ have put so many condoms into Kenya that the children use them as balloons and play with them in the streets.” 

Tragically, we all know how “comprehensive sex education” has worked-out in Africa.    

Unfortunately, it’s no better right here at home.  Despite a culture that relentlessly extols the phantom virtues of so-called “safe sex” and practically throws condoms at children by the handful, STD and teen pregnancy rates remain high. 

Like a broken record, liberal educators and cultural elites incessantly regurgitate, “always have safe sex,” while the only thing impressionable, hormone charged kids hear is, “have sex!”

Of course, “safe sex” is code for “use a condom,” and everyone knows that condoms are anything but reliable.  It’s like telling kids to walk a paper thin latex tightrope.  There’s a good chance it’ll snap and there’s no safety net below. 

Even radical feminists such as the vice president of the Gainesville, Florida, National Organization for Women (NOW) and a “committee chair” of the University of Florida NOW, publicly admitted during testimony before a Food and Drug Administration (FDA) hearing that condoms failed them personally — sometimes on multiple occasions.  If experts like NOW feminists can’t use condoms effectively, how can we expect children to? 

Easy answer — We can’t. 

Look, we know that abstinence is the only foolproof method guaranteed to prevent unwanted teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease.  Yet the many successes associated with abstinence education go completely unreported by a biased media, as a handful of rigged studies conducted by “comprehensive sex ed” proponents make headlines. 

It’s a clear attempt to undermine the impressive success of abstinence education, while — at the same time — endeavoring to salvage its failed “comprehensive sex ed” counterpart.  If it weren’t so serious, it’d be funny.  Still, Planned Parenthood is laughing all the way to the bank.     

So, congratulations Wendy.  It’s obvious from the left’s reaction to your comments that you struck a tender nerve.  Anytime you inject truth into the analysis, they go apoplectic.    

And if Olbermann is the chief protagonist for liberal thought, I think the conservative movement is going to be just fineAnytime you’ve got Keith Olbermann’s goat, you know you’re doing something right.

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About The Author
J. Matt Barber is Director of Cultural Affairs with Liberty Counsel and also serves as Associate Dean with Liberty University School of Law.
 
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How About Michael Savage?
Interesting that you would attack a clearly liberal commentator who makes his own opinions, yet in the past, you have defended the equally offensive Dr. Michael Weiner, A.K.A. conservative shockjock Michael Savage ("Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder", anyone?)

The only difference between the two commentators is that one is liberal and one is conservative. SO, if it comes down to defending one shockjock's comments while condemning another's based soley on politics, then isn't that a little bit conservatively BIASED?

I'll give you some time for your weasel brain to compute that through.

Here's your solution...
To those who actually think the 1950's were golly gee whiz real and you can keep kids from having sex just by telling them No.

Instead of the RU486 pill, invent the U-R-CELE-B8 pill. It will make teens not want to have sex. We just need a miracle drug that will overcome our inherited drives (God given instincts) to procreate.

After all, teens who are immature and judgmentally-challenged can't say yes if their libido is put to sleep-o, until they're what... 18? 20? 21?

It is simple-minded, negligent and down-right absurd to think that the few dollars made from condoms and birth control is enough to bribe health teachers.

Promote abstinence, but not ALONE.

You wonder why we have so many teen pregnancies and abortions?

We won't tell our kids about sex, won't let the teachers do it, won't give them protection, or let anyone else do it... won't give them options - until it is too late. Then, the only options are keep it, kill it or give it up.

Educate. Protect. Options.

Any ONE of those three would make the above article quite moot.

Matt and Ms. Wright, do you even have memory of being a teen? Let alone the sex part? Tell you what, if you actually having sex right now with a willing partner, try giving it up for 6 years. Get back to me if you make it.

WJ

The 264,000
Hey, what about all those not born because people abstained from sex?

Frosty the Snowjob
frost writes: Wednesday, January, 09, 2008 10:22 PM

"Then that thing about a fetus and baby?
"Babies" (per se) are not destroyed by abortion. EMBRYOS or FETUSES are. As mentioned above, there is a considerable difference between a POTENTIAL baby... a protoplasm-of-potential, and a Viable being. Again, a beating heart does not mean "life"."

You must have been asleep in biology class, and certainly have never consulted a Latin-English dictionary. Either that, or you are lying to yourself.

264,000 potential liberals
Dakkon Blackblade writes: Thursday, January, 10, 2008 12:49 PM
Potential
"264,000 potential geniuses.
264,000 potential life saving surgeons.
264,000 potential world leaders.
264,000 potential Mozarts."

264,000 potential child molesters.
264,000 potential terrorists.
264,000 potential murderers.
264,000 potential Hitlers.

Reply to Ken
Ken writes: "Perhaps you can tell me why Planned Parenthood opposes even the most minor restrictions on abortion?"

For the same reason the NRA opposes any restriction in gun ownership. They are both polemical organizations, and their role is to ensure that the law doesn't get moving on a slippery slope. I don't agree with their decision in either case, but I *do* understand why they behave the way they do, at least in this partisan political climate.

afrika
Perhaps you can tell me why Planned Parenthood opposes even the most minor restrictions on abortion?

New and Impressive Summit of Foolishness
I'd thought I'd read bad logic on this site before, but this deserves some measure of immortality.

The axiom is that everyone does everything for money, when you get right down to it. So, planned parenthood BENEFITS when its stated intentions fail.

By that logic -- if you can call it that, and for which there is ZERO evidence, other than slanderous conjecture -- your doctor should be happy when you get sick, your dentist when your teeth rot, etc. Those who claim to help us are all liars, you see.

What it does show is the mindset of the people who'd believe this: that everyone is a cynical, money-obsessed, unprincipled opportunist, whose sole goal is to keep the money flowing. No one "on the left" could possible have kids' best interests at heart. No, they REALLY just want them to get STDS. Then they get more money to help prevent them! Win-win! Yuh-huh.

Think. Focus.

elko.mike
"I was unaware of the fact base you provide and it is an argument against social engineering by the courts. It isn't their job and they create a good deal of mischief trying to do it."

I completely concur with your comments on the courts and social engineering. You might want to read Norma McCorvey's autobiography, "Won by Love." She tells of how she was exploited by Sarah Weddington and other attorneys. The attorneys claimed they were working in behalf of women, but they were only trying to advance their own careers.

Ken: As you know,
the outcome is what matters to them.

I was unaware of the fact base you provide and it is an argument against social engineering by the courts. It isn't their job and they create a good deal of mischief trying to do it.

------------------------------------------

Ken writes:
Friday, January, 11, 2008 11:53 AM
elko.mike
If "Roe" were a criminal case, civil libertarians would be demanding that it be given another hearing.

elko.mike
If "Roe" were a criminal case, civil libertarians would be demanding that it be given another hearing. For instance:

- Norma McCorvey, alias Jane Roe, claimed she was raped. She now admits she lied.

- Ms. McCorvey's attorneys compounded her lie by claiming she was gang raped.

- Other witnesses, such as Bernard Nathanson, grossly exaggerated the number of women who were dying from illegal abortions.

- Ultrasound technology was not available in 1973. This would throw more light on the development of the fetus.

In other words, the Roe vs. Wade decision was based on perjury, falsified evidence, and obsolete medical knowledge. Why shouldn't the Supreme Court give it another hearing?

Ken: My dog in the fight ..
isn't so much Roe, per se, but it is wondering about construction. In that sense, I wonder about a few things relating to Roe

* Griswold in which the court found a "right to privacy" which the court uncovered in a penumbra of emanations for the 4th, 5th, 9th and 14th amendments. The language of all that seemed tortured to me and a more straightforward construction could be made around liberty.

* Harvard Law School article written in 1890 by Brandeis that argued that we needed to have the notion of a right to privacy. I've read it a few times and don't grasp it fully.

* Roe itself which says, in essence, that a woman's right to privacy trumps the right of the fetus to live. The reason for privacy to be important, I think, is that if Griswold was cast as liberty instead of privacy then the court would have to say a woman's liberty trumps the right of the unborn child to live. That sounds problematical as the Declaration lists life as the first right.




Sohpia
I caught much of what you wrote before they removed your comments from the thread. One minute they were there, the next they were gone.

Looks like Devout Agnog is still there though.

Earlier you posted that you have no children yet. Clearly birth control has worked for you if by age 32 you have none. Better get to work. You may want to ask your husband about renting a Ferrari for the weekend.

If and when you do have children though, you will be amazed how your perspecive will change on many of the issues discussed here. It's easy to say you will promote premarital sex to your child when you have no children. Same thing with pro choiceers who like to promote choice all day long up until the day their 14 year old comes in the door pregnant and wants an abortion. All of a sudden 14 year olds aren't mature enough to make such life altering decisions on their own.

P.S. to elko.mike
"Why this is interesting to me is the passionate defense of Roe during confirmation hearings centers upon stare decisis. Well where is that when considering doctrine that's been around for 800 years. Just wondering."

When I posted my previous response, I hadn't yet seen your "oops" statement. You do make a good point. Stare decisis seems rather thin when you consider such landmark cases as Scott v. Sanford (which affirmed slavery) and Plessy v. Ferguson (which upheld racial segregation).

elko.mike
"Interestingly common law in the 1800s bestowed rights on the unborn child when it "quickened". My understanding is that the mother can feel the child move and it occurs at about 15 weeks."

No disrespect intended, but I hardly think it's appropriate to base modern medicine on 19th century standards. With the advent of ultrasound, we now know much more about life in the womb.

Even so, I wonder how Planned Parenthood would react to the idea of banning abortions after fifteen weeks? I doubt they would be very hot for the idea, as they have consistently opposed even the most minor restrictions on abortion.


Ken: Respons Oops
I meant to type 1200s, "Interestingly common law in the 1800s bestowed rights on the unborn child".

Why this is interesting to me is the passionate defense of Roe during confirmation hearings centers upon stare decisis. Well where is that when considering doctrine that's been around for 800 years. Just wondering.

Ken: A response to your question ..
is, what is it if not a human?

Interestingly common law in the 1800s bestowed rights on the unborn child when it "quickened". My understanding is that the mother can feel the child move and it occurs at about 15 weeks.

in the 1200s Henry of Bracton, regarded as the Father of Common Law wrote: “if one strikes a pregnant woman or gives her poison in order to procure an abortion, if the foetus is already formed or quickened, especially if it is quickened, he commits homicide”.

------------------------------------------------

Ken writes:

Friday, January, 11, 2008 9:41 AM
What if it IS human?

Moderate Mark
Looks like I missed out on more of the conversation from yesterday. Had to work. Hate that.

You stated:"Last note on abortion, well all have the same goals. I do hope for the day that not a single abortion is performed in the US but to achieve this we need abstinence, birth control, education and parent being involved."

I think you are right here. I doubt there is no one thing that works exculsively. Sure abstinance works 100% of the time it is practiced but in practical terms it does not work exclusively. As you stated, one of the most important thing is for the parent to be involved. It is scary that a 14 year old girl can go to PP with the high school counselor and get an abortion all without parental consent. This eliminates the parent from the equation completely. This is poor policy.

What if it IS human?
In case anyone is wondering, I am not the same "Ken" that posted earlier, as I am 100% pro-life and I thoroughly despise Planned Parenthood.

If a fetus is not a human being, then we can argue such concepts as "freedom of choice." But what if it IS a human being? If such is the case, then we have perpetrated a slaughter in this country that makes the crimes of Hitler and Stalin pale in comparision. Worst of all, the vast majority of women who receive abortions are not victims of rape or incest. Most women have abortions purely for convenience.

Getting back to the original question: is a fetus human? On that point, the evidence is undeniably and overwhelmingly on the pro-life side.

T.C.: Good one! :-)
.

Anne
You say Siberia. I say Outer Mongolia. Mox/Nix.

My wife, btw, favors Xanadu for S.P.Q. & Co.

Xanadu. Hmmm. Just might be the perfect place. One way tickets? Yep!

Absentee ballots? Nope.

They would get roller skates, however.


T.C.: Close. I hear it's to Siberia!

But, you'd have to ask sophie since she's been banned a few times. (Actually, a lot of times! LOL)

I agree... jetpilot could take roberto and lilly, and a few more who I could easily name.

And since roberto claims to BE a pilot, jetpilot has someone to fly the right seat! :-)

One way trip! Right on!


The only quetion I "might" have is, do they get absentee ballots? :-(








Anne
Banned to where? How 'bout this.

jetpilot takes Robert and Lilly along with S.P.Q. to Outer Mongolia.

One way trip, of course.

Perfect flight plan?

Helping the poor
I just don't believe that what the government has been doing is working - and after over 40 years of trying the same thing, only more of the same, that seems obvious to me. I know charity can't cover everything, but the money they spend goes a lot farther. I think people who have serious medical needs and children that are in dangerous situations should be protected - so the government does have to help, but the government isn't doing it well because of all of the loops money goes through. So perhaps we need to re-think how we protect those who need it. But don't get me wrong - all life is precious, from conception to death, it's life in stages of development. Some don't want God to be in charge of their lives because they'd rather play God. For me, the jury is still out on the homosexual lifestyle period. That doesn't mean I'm a "homophobe". That just means that I believe there are absolutes - and I know I have no right to judge, because I also am never absolutely right. (I should be getting some cleaning up done right now! (-: My daughter has a gay friend, and he is a very nice, kind person who is a great support for her. That doesn't mean I have to think everything he does is OK, just like everything I do isn't always OK either. I get to leave that to God, and know that He loves me no matter what .

lutheran chick: Pay them no mind...


They're losers! Leftist Losers! Lemming Leftist Losers! Limited Lunatic Lemming Leftist Losers!

Neither of them has said anything worthwhile in... well.... I don't even remember that they have!!!

And PSYCHO Sophie will most likely be banned AGAIN...







ModerateMark - Constitution, not "us"...


ModerateMark writes: "The quote "government of the people, by the people, for the people," means it up to us what are government should do."


No.


It means that our Constitution determines what our government should do (and what we are authorized to do).


Liberals just don't like what it says... and they have similar problems with Authority at every level...


Sophia Pagan Queen
I know some people will never be convinced of certain things even if the evidence flew up and hit them in the face. But the people you are saying don't care for babies are the ones who do - who give freely and willingly of time and money - who aren't interested in profits or races or sexual orientation - who feed the hungry, help the sick, teach about how all people are of great value and are loved no matter what, and help people out of poverty by helping them to see their lives have meaning and value. If that makes me and many people I know into evil people, I would sure like to know why. But the government can't love and care for people - its purpose is to protect. LBJ declared war on poverty 43 years ago by putting into place a welfare system. And we think the war in Iraq is lasting too long?

Oh geeeeeze, she's baaaaaaaack!

Had to appreciate the few civilized days we had... when we had them, that is.


It's so sad!
The pro-abortion, pro-Planned Parenthood types just can't keep from showing selfishness, lack of respect, and a ME-FIRST! attitude. If our society continues to live that way, it will be difficult to justify calling it a "society". It would be hard to live as neighbors and co-workers with people who don't care at all about the weak and helpless. It was said that a beating heart doesn't make a person - I suppose that will also apply when someone's children thinks medical bills are eating up too much of their inheritance.

Sophia Writes:
"She is however one ugly sour pussed uptight self-righteous bi-yatch!

And I'm pretty certain from her bitter angry demeanor that she is a woman who has NEVER had a good lay!

Poor thing!

I think her husband took the abstinence pledge.

Can you blame him?"


Are you sure you aren't describing Hillary and Bill here? Oh wait, Bill didn't take the abstinence pledge. He took the "fornicate (just for you Sophia) everything BUT Hillary" pledge.

Moderate Mark/Sophia
Hey this could be the next article on TH. "Sex, Ferrari's and the Autobahn."

Now if we could just figure out how to get Pepperoni Pizza with double cheese and watching Football in the mix.

Sophia
What about driving a Ferrari on the Autobahn while having sex.

Gotta love liberal logic
You libs attack the premise of Matt Barber's article with talking points that are themselves challenged by the premise of Matt Barber's article, and cite this as proof that Barber's article is wrong.

At the risk of sounding condescending here (and thus sounding like a liberal), I highly recommend that you take some classes in elementary logic, because your ability to form coherent arguments is nothing short of atrocious.

And Scott, way to hang in there with courage in this pit of vipers. It's always nice to see proponents of "tolerance" of others' viewpoints bare their teeth and froth at the mouth at the merest insinuation that their own viewpoints are the least bit flawed. And the hysteria seems to always reach a fever pitch especially when their precious "right" to fornicate with impunity and foist the consequences of their actions upon innocent bystanders is challenged.

For your consideration
The only 100% effective method of birth control is abstinence. Only one documented failure in 2008 years.

Abstinence Ed
Teaching kids to have safe sex because "they're going to do it any way" is like teaching a course in drunk driving because people are going to drive drunk any way.

Ken, your forced logic doesn't work
Ken writes: Wednesday, January, 09, 2008 1:30 PM
Laughable
"It doesn’t take a Phi Beta Kappa to figure out that Planned Parenthood — one of the foremost cheerleaders of “comprehensive sex ed” — has a vested interest in seeing that young girls become pregnant and have abortions."

That's about the most bone-headed thing I've ever read.

Let's try that logic out elsewhere, shall we?

"Gun manufacturers have a vested interest in promoting murder (and other crimes), because that will cause more people to buy guns (to either commit crimes or defend themselves)"

Sounds silly, huh?
__________________________________________

First, the logic which applies to the viscious abortion mills, that they want children to experiment with sex because they are 'progressive,' because they are intellectuals, because they are elite, because they are humanists, etc so that there are more pregnancies to abort makes great sense. But you cannot necessarily make that work in the case of guns. If you want to force it to work it will, for example: "Gun manufacturers have a vested interest in promoting self defense and hunting, because that will cause more people to buy guns to defend themselves with and to hunt with."

Yes, your lib/lefty nonsense sounds silly, right!

And
Dakkon Blackblade writes: Potential
"264,000 potential geniuses.
264,000 potential life saving surgeons.
264,000 potential world leaders.
264,000 potential Mozarts."

264,000 potential child molesters.
264,000 potential terrorists.
264,000 potential murderers.
264,000 potential Hitlers.
=================================================

Guess we'll never know will we?

Anyone watch L&O last night? I was surprised at the lengths they went through to protect a potential homosexual infant at the expense of the mother's health - isn't that a conflict of the liberal montra? Then the "Oh well it was for the best" attitude expressed over the abortion of a child might have had Downs - then turned out not to.

Worst Person in the world?
I'd consider nominating Mr. Olbermann for this award. He slanders and bashes a good President. He ridicules the pro-life movement. He is a bad sportscaster (which is probably why he went into the loony left business). And he works for the most sleazy, unethical news organization out there- NBC. NBC has a long history of staging news- does anyone remember the GM pickup explosions, the staged pedophile busts, or then-NBC station KCNC's staged dogfights back in the 1980s? At least when CBS's Bush story was proved to be false, Dan Rather and several producers lost their jobs. When NBC reporters stage news, they just get higher profile positions on Dateline or else aid Olbermann in his verbal atrocities.

NBC should be off the air and Mr. Olbermann should be in a well secured padded room at Creedmoor Psychiatric Institute in NY.

Potential
"264,000 potential geniuses.
264,000 potential life saving surgeons.
264,000 potential world leaders.
264,000 potential Mozarts."

264,000 potential child molesters.
264,000 potential terrorists.
264,000 potential murderers.
264,000 potential Hitlers.

Moderate Mark
Oh I wanted to respond to your last comment regarding white babies. Don't sweat it. I don't have a PC card in my wallet so I wasn't bothered by it. Plus you might be correct as I really don't know what the statistics are.


Ray
Regarding your comment about Abstinance Only education, the idea that people will accept all of it or none of it does not accurately reflect how people think.

First, people are more likely to accept factual claims from teachers (even when they are inaccurate) than moral claims. So if they sense that teachers are trying to impose their morals on them they may ignore them while believing the factual claims given. Kids also tend to think that adults are too risk adverse and so be willing to accept factual claims while rejecting the suggested consequences of this.

Secondly, people often believe the stuff they want to believe. So while few teens want to believe that sex is as risky as they have been told, pretty much all male teens who choose to have sex want to believe that using a condom doesn't actually do much. So it is not at all implausible that many teens take away the message that condoms are a waste while ignoring the abstinence message.

And most studies bare this out. Abstinence only has a short term effect on preventing sexual activity, but its only long term effect seems to be to discourage condom usage. This may well be part of the explanation of why unwanted pregnancy rates are now starting to climb after falling steadily during the abstinance plus years of sex ed. (And most likely that will result in an increase in the number of abortions, although that data seems to come out with more of a delay).

Moderate Mark
Hey there is nothing wrong with new uniforms.

But like you said there is a serious issue when the heads of these non profits are making large salaries. Take what you gave to United Way and then ask yourself "How many of these donations does it take just to pay that one salary" Sort of makes you feel like you wasted your money.

Sorry to get cynical as I believe giving money to non profits is a good thing and does benefit many (and no I don't think you wasted your money). It does get frustrating though to constantly hear about such flagrant greed.

A Few Quotes......
On the subject of blacks, immigrants and indigents:
"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born."

On the purpose of birth control:
The purpose in promoting birth control is "to create a race of thoroughbreds".

On the rights of the handicapped, mentally ill, and racial minorities:
"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control."

On the extermination of blacks:
"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."

As some of you already know, these quotes are all by Margaret Higgins Sanger, a liberal god and founder of Planned Parenthood.

Moderate Mark
I posted a comment in reply but it seems to have gotten lost. Too long to retype but boiled down I was wondering if the non profit orgs are indeed forced to have a zero budget, then this in turn can easily lead to corruption in the organization ie higher salaries etc... How much extra money left over is acceptable? I don't know, but pressuring organizations to spend it needlessly seems like poor policy. Imagine if Bill Gates were not an atheist. Most Churches wouldn't know what to do with his tithe. Clearly somebody would get a pay raise.

lutheran chick
I like your style of name calling, although I believe the PC term for pornography supporters goes something like "Adult Entertainer's Union Guild."

Planned Parenthood
There are few more vile and evil groups in the US than Planned Parenthood and their allies in the abortion business (like NARAL). Their support for abortion is not "Controversial" as the Left likes to put it, it is Satanic. It's one thing to argue that abortion is a necessary evil in this world because some people may actually need it for some reason or other. I don't buy that argument for a nanosecond, but it's reasonable.

No their idea is not to simply make it "Safe, Legal, and Rare" but to encourage it as the best possible means of having your cake and eating it, too. They declare it a natural right, they blast any politician who has even the slightest hesitation in going along with their platform, they have t-shirts for women to proudly display "I had an abortion." ANY restriction is opposed, even those imposed by non-governmental people (parents, husbands, doctors, etc.) They hate the newest ultrasound technology that shows real-time, moving, 3-D images of the unborn child. Anything that would put it in a young girl's head that abortion might not be a good idea is quashed. They even support kidnapping a child to take her accross state lines without her parents' knowledge, let alone consent, to avoid a given state's notification laws. (They have opposed laws to restrict that practice.)

The world would be a better place if the abortion-on-demand crowd simply didn't exist. Then, maybe, we could have a reasonable debate on what constitutes choice and what rights ought to be protected.

Pregnancy
With all the preventive methods available to young girls at no or little cost why do so many girls and women become pregnant?I bet that in most schools the nurse would give out the preventive products free.By the way Iv'e been married for 53 years and still find my wife sexy.

To No one
The greatest flaw of media liberals is that they always, and I mean always, talk down to their audience.

It's been the biggest mistake of the liberal, elite media for years. To their credit, some in the MSM like Charles Gibson completely understand this. Peter Jennings never understood it. Dan Rather never understood it. Katie Couric pretends to understand it but she doesn't.

Now to MSNBC. Notice how the all news people are stuck there. No other network will take them. Kind of a shame too, because Tucker and Morning Joe aren't all that bad.

So that brings us to who? Yep. It brings us to the fearless leader of the MSNBC train wreck. The face of MSNBC. The guy with the big "L" on his sweat shirt. You guessed it. Little Keithy.

Little Keithy. Our poor little, baby. Another night and pounded once again in the ratings by Bill O. What is it now? Something like 900 consecutive nights of being kicked, punched, chopped and grounded into little pieces by O'Reily. Ahh. I could almost cry again for him. Almost.





more name-calling
I guess that I need to add pornography supporters to hypocritcal and sexually-stifled. Actually, I don't believe sex is a spectator sport or recreation. It's a way that expresses deep love and committment - "and the two shall become one." Frost, you're throwing out statistics because they don't agree with what you believe to be true. Can't people who disagree stay with facts and keep from name-calling and put-downs? It hasn't done well in Congress - instead of being concerned about what it best for the country, they seem to be concerned about power. Having one party in complete control would probably not be best - "power corrupts, but absolute power..." Just as they do, if we ignore facts, and only depend on feelings, we become cocerned only about our own welfare, and not the welfare of others - whether it be a sexual partner or a baby.

Moderate Mark
I don't know (and I don't really care) what the statistics are regarding available white babies up for adoption. Frost was using the argument to support abortion (disguised as choice), as if the 51% non-white minorities would be better off aborted.

Your comment about non profit makes sense. My only question is if PP has a surplus at the end of the year, why do they continue to need federal tax money?

Lutheran Chick
You are probably right about the Political Corectness comment. We personally didn't care about such nonsense when we approached adoption. We simply were looking to expand our family.

I am looking forward to the day when it will be Polically Correct to no longer be Politically Correct.

Biology 101
There's only one way to get pregnant: sexual intercourse.

If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex.

Any questions?

Everyonesfacts
Abstinance advocates make money when states choose abstinance?

Really?

How?

And How Much?

Lilly...
"Would you prefer your partner to say, "By the way, I have AIDS but we don't need to use a condom because my Abstinence Only teacher said they don't do any good"?"

Now that is just silly and you must know it. In the first place, if said partner was influenced by an "Abstinence Only" teacher, then abstinence would be the course of action encouraged by that influence. At least, if not in particular, in this case where the risk is real and present.

Secondly, nobody says that the use of condoms do not "do any good" in regard to preventing sexually transmitted diseases; they say that the use of condoms do not provide enough protection to overcome the risk. My point, clearly, is that few would/should rely on the use of a condom for protection when the partner is a known carrier; therefore encouraging their use when the partners status is unknown is to rely on chance, not protection.

Finally, the question was not what one would prefer the attitude of the Aids carrier to be but what one would do in response to that attitude. My response would be 'thanks but no thanks' as opposed, say, to donning the condom followed by a soul searching tongue kiss to start things off.

Bluepiper
I am glad someone brought that up.

Non-profit does not mean that no one gets rich. All it means is the corporation has no shareholders who receive dividends and that it gets preferential tax treatment. (There is a bit more, but for our purposes, that should just about cover it.)

Employees, directors and lobbyists for non-profits can be paid millions of dollars, whether it is called a "non-profit" or not.

So please don't tell me that "because it is a non-profit" no one is getting rich. The non-profit label says nothing about the motives of employees and directors. Greed can drive in the non-profit world just as much as the for profit world.


and on the other side
the abstinence crowd makes $ when states or
districts choose abstinence.

This is news?


Lon, you you you...
You wrote: "It is true that human beings have a drive towards sex, but they also have a drive towards violence."

That is a complete crock of BS. There are no genetic, instinctive, or hormonal human traits which drive humans to violence. There are diseases and mutations which may make it more likely, but that is ABNORMAL.

NO NORMAL humans have a violence drive.

ALL NORMAL humans have a SEX DRIVE. People get horny because of it. Did you miss that in your upbringing? Planned Parenthood and company monopolize on it.






AH, Liberals!
"Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization." HAH! Can you explain why they are rolling in money and those who provide abortions get rich? Liberals think only with their groins; sex is the end all and be all of their philosophy, and it doesn't matter what kind of sex they have as long as it is sex! Liberals support every perversion of sex that there is; homosexuality, pedophilia, adultery, fornication in general, zoophilia, pornography in every fashion, etc, etc, etc. They have turned our society into Sodom and Gomorrah.

Medical Profession
I agree with Wendy Wright. It's like when I go to my doctor. It's as if he needs to find something wrong with me. He needs patients, he needs to write prescriptions, labs are depending on him for blood and urine samples, different specialists are depending on him to send him patients with various ailments. When my doctor sees me I get the feeling that I'm being mined, sort of like gold. It's all about money and if anybody believes that the medical profession isn't all about money they have not had to pay 10 dollars for a hospital's aspirin yet. Healing is sort of a sideline. Doctors are supposed to be about life and health. How that ties in with abortions for pregnant teens and promiscuous sex is a little beyond me.

Hockey Goon
Or Hussein Obambi's horrible vote to DENY ANY MEDICAL SERVICES to children who survive abortion!

They just let it suffer and die.

Liberals have EARNED a spot in H*ll, many times over.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/

Who know what Olbermann says?
How does anyone know what Keith Olbermann says? His audience is composed of: his mother. MSNBC is kept on the air by NBC to make itself look good by comparison of ratings. Olbermann's salary is secretly paid by CBS to keep him on the air to be able to compare ratings with Katie Couric (who does not have a rating per se, the audience is a show of hands) and have her come out better in her time slot than someone else, plus to make Dan Rather-Biased appear to have been rational, or quasi-rational at least.

As a reminder
frost writes: My God - - "baby murdering?"
Zealots can be rather "trying" -- and the anti-Choice folk, scary. Really.

=================================================

Perhaps you should listen to the last democratic presidential candidate. John Kerry said life begins with conception - but he was OK with killing them anyway.


FROST
Frost writes: my son came to me for money to get his girlfriend an abortion. BUT after finding out it wasnt his , he let her move in and she decided to have the baby afterall.

Wow how moving, let me get this rite, When you thought it was your sons baby it was ok for your son to come to you for money for an abortion but when you found out it wasnt his your STUPID ARSE son let her move in and now he is helping her raise another mans baby. Boy sounds like you and your son have his priorities backwards.

Sounds like to me someone has been tapping your sons GIRLFRIEND while he is away. We men/fathers know what it means when we say some girl might be carrying my baby.(GIRLFRIEND)

arrggh!
i hate double posts! sorry...

Is it just me....
....or does anyone even care what Keith Olbermann thinks?

I don't care what Bill O'Reilly thinks, either.

Or Rush Limbaugh.

will...
I feel sorry for you, but I feel even sorrier for the young women that you use, abuse and discard.

will...
I feel sorry for you, but I feel even sorrier for the young women that you use, abuse and discard.

To Matt Barber
Like Air America, MSNBC, despite the constant aid of those on the left, is dead in the water.

This drives George Soros and the far left right up the wall as their perverted view continues to be completely ignored.

Yes. There are things to be thankful for. And now we come to Little Keithy.

Little Keithy, who crys himself to sleep every single night and wakes up every single morning screaming "I hate you Bill O'Reilly. I hate you. I hate you." Ahh. There now. Don't be upset, Little Keithy.

No one in the great big world of T.V. wants to watch Little Keithy. It's almost enough to make me cry. Almost.




Scott
will writes: “But there is always that mystery of DISCOVERY in a body you've never had sex with.”


Scott wroter - Are you talking about living human beings, or cadavers? Or plastic dolls?

Ha! I was thinking the same thing...

ROBERT!
HOLY DOG DROPPINGS!

You and I actually agree on something. Your post at 0138 was good. It was devoid of any symptoms of BDS and actually made some real sense.

Although I'm wondering exactly what "gad" means.

Visit the #1 blog on TH. (Click on my handle or the link below to be WHISKED to the blog that liberals HATE!)

PS: Thanks to all of the libs who send me hate mail!

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/

I guessed it
it was a liberal.

Gee, go figure.

Check my blog for an article, hitherto UNREPORTED in the Lib Stream Media as well as The Goreacle's mission to Ecuador.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/Default.aspx

On big business
In 2003, President Gloria Feldt earned $460,277.

Not too shabby compensation for 'serving one's principles'.

According to this document, PP spent $888,065 on executive and director salaries, plus $20,398,104 for other salaries. Plus $2,732,531 in other employee benefits. This is almost starting to look like a big business. I don't suppose any of these salary-earners would be interested in making more money, or in at least keeping the same level of earnings?

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/images/PPFA/PPFA_990.pdf

I wonder how much money doctors make from their dealings with PP?

Nope, no possibility of monetary motivations in THIS lilly-white industry.




The real problem...
...is that choice results in consequences. That means that the issue isn't whether PP or CWA is right, but that the children in adult bodies want to engage in what is undeniably a pleasurable activity without having to deal with the potential consequences--i.e. babies.

What we should be teaching, or encouraging parents to teach, isn't so much abstinence only as responsibility for one's choices and actions. What that really boils down to is one choice--accept reality and your place in it, or deny reality and your place in it. People who make the first choice on an ongoing basis generally act in a responsible manner when it comes to making all the other choices. People who make the second choice on an ongoing basis generally act in an irresponsible manner when making all the other choices.

Ask yourself first whether you've chosen to accept reality and your place in it or not, then ask how you'd like your children to choose.


To will
"But there is always that mystery of DISCOVERY in a body you've never had sex with. You don't really maintain that sense of discovery & awe with a body you've been having sex with after 10 years of marriage."

I've been married for 19 years and can tell you that the thrill of exploration is not the only, or even greatest, thrill of sex. However, a person must exercise some trust in, and commitment to, another human being in order to find this out and get past the adolescent phase.


To Frost
"Strange part is, it's sexual REPRESSION THAT causes weirdos to unleash their craziness."

Would you agree that the America of the 1930's was more 'repressive' sexually than contemporary America?
Well, which had higher rates of child molestation? If your contention is true, then such crimes would be FAR more prevalent in the 1930's (or the 1880's for that matter) than today.
Work the numbers and let me know.

Here's What I Don't Understand...
Here's what I don't understand: do groups like CWA advocate abstinence education IN ADDITION to comprehensive sex education, or do they advocate abstinence ONLY education? I have no objection to abstinence education whatsoever, as long as there is other information for those teens who don't want to abstain. That's why I feel that there is so much objection to abstinence: because they don't exactly know what context the term abstinence education means.

frost - are you advocating now?


frost writes (10:22pm): "CT and a few others -- proved my point... name-calling and innuendo, based on nothing other than emotion?"


Please be specific in your accusations, providing quotes when applicable, so those who you are accusing can respond if they are so inclined.



~~~



frost wrote previously (8:01pm): “Hey, I'm not advocating a thing EXCEPT Freedom of Choice. The evangelical zealots do sufficient advocating....”


frost writes (10:22pm): “ ‘Babies’ (per se) are not destroyed by abortion. EMBRYOS or FETUSES are. As mentioned above, there is a considerable difference between a POTENTIAL baby... a protoplasm-of-potential, and a Viable being. Again, a beating heart does not mean ‘life’.”


Are you advocating a position *now*, or are you just “offering some other arguments or items I've come across" again? -- (frost, 8:01pm)



~~~



frost writes (10:22pm): "Contrary to what many would have you to believe, court testimony states "the predominant response to abortion (by women) is RELIEF - - there are far fewer psychiatric disabilities than from women who are DENIED abortions."


*Now* are you advocating a position, or are you just offering “those aforementioned items for conversational (or debate?) purposes" again? -- (frost, 8:01pm)


will - Where to begin?


Your post from 9:54pm is very crude, will.


will writes: “But there is always that mystery of DISCOVERY in a body you've never had sex with.”


Are you talking about living human beings, or cadavers? Or plastic dolls?



~~~



will writes: “You don't really maintain that sense of discovery & awe with a body you've been having sex with after 10 years of marriage.”


What exactly is it that you expect to “discover” with a “body you’ve never had sex with” before, a third arm? An 11th finger? An extra breast? Webbed toes? What?



~~~



will writes: “Make your case for marriage if you want, THAT'S ONE THING, but don't hoodwink people into thinking that sex with the body you've been married to for 10 years is better than getting some strange.”


Most people who get married are married to a PERSON, not just “the body”. Has it not yet occurred to you that sexual fulfillment has as much (or more) to do with what occupies the space between your ears as it does with whatever reproductive organ you might possess?



~~~



will writes: “If married sex was as good as you say, there'd be no porn industry.”


Right… this conclusion is based on the premise that the “porn industry” is exclusive to married people…



~~~



will writes (9:09pm): “When I was a teenager in high school (not THAT long ago)”


There’s a surprise… ;-)



CT and a few others - - -
- - proved my point... name-calling and innuendo, based on nothing other than emotion?
You're not going to change many minds that way.
And, Lutheran Chick - - you can speak of mogonomous sex, but you'll never convince some of us. Then that thing about a fetus and baby?
"Babies" (per se) are not destroyed by abortion. EMBRYOS or FETUSES are. As mentioned above, there is a considerable difference between a POTENTIAL baby... a protoplasm-of-potential, and a Viable being. Again, a beating heart does not mean "life".

Contrary to what many would have you to believe, court testimony states "the predominant response to abortion (by women) is RELIEF - - there are far fewer psychiatric disabilities than from women who are DENIED abortions.

And, for those who want to outlaw the "Morning After" pill -- a three day old human embryo is a collection of just 150 cells, that’s all It’s called a blastocyst. For the sake of comparison, there are more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly.

Again, I'm not for abortion, just Choice.

That's all -- have a book to finish. G'dnight.

lutheran chick
"...knowing that married, monogamous people have the best sex..."

That is a completely subjective comment. Save your statistics! If you have sex with 25 different attractive individuals, some of it is bound to be good, some of it bad. But there is always that mystery of DISCOVERY in a body you've never had sex with. You don't really maintain that sense of discovery & awe with a body you've been having sex with after 10 years of marriage.

Make your case for marriage if you want, THAT'S ONE THING, but don't hoodwink people into thinking that sex with the body you've been married to for 10 years is better than getting some strange. If married sex was as good as you say, there'd be no porn industry.

ModerateMark - I believe you are wrong.


Aurorawatcher’s last post was at 6:18pm, so it is unlikely that she is here to defend herself, and while she certainly does not require me to defend her, I know her character well enough from this forum to say that I believe your perceptions are in error.



ModerateMark writes: “So you are admitting that your husband was committing fraud by screwing up furnaces to consume more oil. And since your husband was willing to commit fraud we should assume PP would also be willing to commit fraud. Gotta love the conservative thought..”


She admitted no such thing, and I don’t believe she would condone her husband doing any such thing. She said her husband was “in the trade”, so he would have knowledge of such practices. That is not saying he was working for the fuel company, and even if he was (and even if others were committing fraud) it certainly does not mean that her husband was engaging in this activity as well.


I am confident that her husband’s actions are honorable, as well as her own, because from the many posts of hers which I have read over the past year or more, I know she is a Christian who takes God’s Word seriously.


Secondarily, it would be stupid to have made such comments and used her husband as an example if he was involved in committing fraud, and she’s not stupid.


I suspect you’ll find that out, first-hand ;-)



~~~



ModerateMark writes: “Sound like you approve of this tactic. Thou shall not steal does not apply to oil furnaces?”


I am confident that Aurorwatcher does NOT approve of that tactic in any way, shape or form. I am also confident that she would be the first to tell you that stealing is a sin, and it applies to everyone.



~~~



ModerateMark writes: “All right, I not being fair to your husband. He didn't do it right? wink wink...”


Subtract the “wink wink” and I believe your comments are most likely to be accurate. I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.



I've noticed that
all the lefties cite false information, use faulty logic to their pro-abortion stance. That's not surprising since Science and facts have already proven them wrong on many of the lies surrounding abortion. So, pro-abortion supporters are either A) Ignorant B) Sticking their fingers in their ears when these truths and facts are mentioned, much like little children do when they don't what to hear what is being said.

babies
The only difference between a "baby" and a "fetus" is the mother's attitude toward her pregnancy. It's nice to toss around how pro-abortion zealots really only want women to have a choice, and all of the hypocritical religious sexually-stifled evangelical Christians want to destroy everyone's fun and make them miserable. Sex and pregancy are connected to your emotions and your heart - do you protect that with a condom or an abortion? Some of the kindest, most sincere and loving people I know really care about kids and want them to have a happy, healthy life. This doesn't include being led to believe that your hormones are out of control, and so since you're undoubtedly going to have sex anyway, you'd better be sort of protected (finally, condoms are being called "safer" sex). Knowing that you are in control of yourself, knowing the true statistics about condoms, knowing that married, monogomous people have the best sex (that's a statistic - yes, conservative Christians really do like sex - we prefer calling it making love to our spouse). There's just so much harm done by the Planned Parenthood philosophy it just makes me sad. And it's hard to adopt a baby of a different race, because it's not politically correct. Many people I know who have adopted finally went to overseas adoptions because they just couldn't in the United States. Sorry so long - it's a passion of mine and there doesn't seem to be any communication - just name-calling.

it's comforting to note that
neither side has the monopoly on pinheads or fatheads or idiots or jerks or just plain ignorami (plural of ignoramus)

Well at least Matt Barber isn't
giving us another anti-gay blog today. Though it IS about sexuality. Barber seems to have a one-track mind.

I hope Matt doesn't turn out to be like the Rev. Ted Haggard, getting oil massages from his personal trainer while high on meth. Matt is just way way way too obsessed with straight sex & gay sex & teen sex to be above reproach.

I'm not sure what universe Matt Barber inhabits. When I was a teenager in high school (not THAT long ago), lots of people were telling me not to have sex (we all did anyway of course). Nobody was "throwing condoms" at us. But I'm telling you, at some of these wild Friday night parties, I WISH people were throwing condoms. I knew a couple girls who got pregnant & dropped out of school.

Moderate Mark
Not sure which way to take your comment. Are you suggesting that there are too few white newborns because all the blacks are being aborted or are you insinuating that the reason for the long wait is because all the adoptive parents are waiting for a white newborn?

In most cases (not all) the birth mother has full control on where their baby goes. They choose the adoptive family. We had no stipulations on our adoption and we waited over 4 years. Race or gender was not specified and we had three failed attempts before we were finally chosen. Our main fault was we have three other children and many mothers were looking for the ideal situation where they could help infertile couples have a baby. So the fact that we had children made us unappealing to most birthmoms.

Who's the Worst
It would be a different world if Abstinence worked for everyone. The reality is that an Abstinence Only program will lead to more unwanted children to people who are not ready for parenthood. Trying to make sur that those with impulse control issuses have babies to teach them that having babies to early is not a productive way to handle things.

If you thik that a lack of birth control will make pre-martial sex go away then I have some beach front property in Kansas that I would like to sell you.

Frost
Here is some information you can use in your next argument for freedom of choice.

Over 50% of women that were considering an abortion changed their mind after having an ultrasound of their baby. If you really want them to have a choice, then you would agree that PP should offer ultrasound services to women seeking abortion. That way the women can be sure to make their decision fully informed of the situation.

http://www.silentnomore

Schiiiiish - - -
Nitpicking, mental gymnastics challenges? Hey, I'm not advocating a thing EXCEPT Freedom of Choice.
The evangelical zealots do sufficient advocating....
And I'm only offering some other arguments or items I've come across.
Usually I cite the source, but other times I boil down the information from several sources.
Or perhaps I was in a rush and lacked time...?
Thus, you see, I offer those aforementioned items for conversational (or debate?) purposes, mostly because they're things that those "social conservatives" are so opposed to (without stating too many legitimate reasons, aside from often calling names?), generally in semi-sanctimonious fashion, okay?

Seconding Wyler
Wyler....it looks like the U.S. as a whole is already ahead of you on your suggestion to ignore Keith Olbermann. Which is why Olbermann is routinely getting hammered in the ratings every night by Bill O'Reilly. Which is why Olbermann's show is so often nothing more than a broadside on Bill O'Reilly. A lot easier to cudgel O'Reilly than to actually successfully compete with him, huh, Keith? Olbermann's show has degenerated into the scorched-earth rantings of a man who will probably soon be joining the list of past MSNBC O'Reilly competitors who are now airtime history. This is the same reason that liberal talk radio has failed so miserably in competing with conservative talk radio: liberals haven't learned that anger and vituperation don't in themselves make for attention-deserving programming. Of course, much of the left has nothing left beyond these to offer in support of their worldview, so I don't expect the left to change its ways now anymore than one can expect a leopard to change its spots.

The Frost Propoganda Machine claims:
"Adoption??? 51% are non-white minorities - but most prospective adopting parents want white or healthy kids."

What's your argument here? That the 51% that are non-white minorities are better off being aborted?


BTW: The average waiting period for adopting a newborn domestically is 36 months from the time paperwork is started. The reason is simple. Supply and demand. Too many adoptive parents and too few newborns to be adopted.

Error
I meant my post to refer to IgoCommando's post..
sorry ex-Wyomingite

ex-Wyomingite "Was it.. wrong?
PP helped prevent you from ruining your life? Resisting what is harmful would have been better. Is it truly wiser to kill the tiny little sons and daughters couples fear would interfere with their/your fun? Killing preborn children is PP's business. Contraception, the precurser to abortion is also a silent death..of an innocence which resides in the heart as well as death of the real living pre-born children who have been conceived in the woman's body.

For over 2,000 years Christians have known what science backs up with imperical evidence..that life begins at conception.

When you consider your own death will you please consider begging God's pardon. The wellbeing of those little people PP'd killed at your behest was your responsibility. Premarital sex isn't like smoking or drinking.

God forbids us to kill, in particular the innocent..we are not excused when we assign that task to PP.

May God have mercy on those preborn babies and their mothers who are in danger of abortion and contraception. And may He convert those who are a threat to them.

Ignore Olbermann
For those of us who do not make our living monitoring vapid chatterers like Keith Olbermann, I suggest that we not waste our time on him. I don't go so far as to say he's a moron, but there are many other writers and commentators more worthy of our time and thought. I will say that Olbermannn, like many others who have a forum, become so enamored with themselves that they think they actually having something valuable to contribute on a variety of important issues. Most people have trouble enough doing one job very well. Olbermann is clearly out of his league and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously on topics such as this. I say, ignore him!

frost - really poor argument


frost writes: “I read somewhere that the countries with the least abortion include Belgium with an abortion rate of 6.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44. The Netherlands, 6.5. Germany, 7.8. In the USA it’s 22. THEN, compare it to countries where abortion is illegal: Egypt, 23; Brazil, 40; Chile, 50; Peru, 56.”


You “read somewhere”? Did you recall all those details from memory? Why not cite your source?



~~~



frost writes: “Thus, if pro-life laws are the best way to reduce abortion, then why are the world's lowest abortion rates found in Pro-CHOICE countries -- while some of the world's highest abortion rates are in countries that outlaw abortion?”


First, I don’t know that anyone is arguing that “pro-life laws” are the BEST “way to reduce abortion”, but they are certainly a necessary component.


Second, surely you realize that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of other variables involved in each of the nations you mentioned?


Third, you are familiar with the concept of correlation not being equal to causality?


Okay - -
- - but I certainly do not call myself a Christian (although I was brought up as an Episcopalian, was an acolyte and choirboy) because of the hypocracy I've observed.

For whatever it's worth, I go "direct" and am a Deist with Libertarian leanings.

My suggestion is to let the individual states choose (as in the case of Oregon and Dr. Assisted Suicide) -- that way there are 50 options, not just one which could be totally screwed up, and that's true with the abortion/choice issue, gay stuff and other things like those pesky stemcells.

ex-Wyomingite
'...the frat boy first in line for the annual hazings...'

You nailed it! That's exactly the impression I've always taken from Olberman (besides him being a mediocre hack.)

He reminds me of Ben Affleck's character from Dazed and Confused. Even amongst his own friends he had some uses, but even they didn't really like him.

As for Planned Parenthood; I honestly have mixed feelings here. Yes they're an abortion factory, but they did manage to keep an 18-year old version of myself; along with his uninsured 18-year old girlfriend, out of trouble by providing affordable and reliable birth control. I paid cash, she got a quarterly shot+condom=no little commandoes running around. Was it premarital sex and wrong? Absolutely. Did PP likely help us in the prevention of ruining our young lives? I think so. In retrospect, we were going to be young and stupid regardless. At least we were smart enough to go there and purchase appropriate protection.

Not as crazy as he sounds...
The premise of the article is correct- there is a lot of money to be made with so called comprehensive sex education. I was speaking to the director of pharmacy for one of the largest colleges in the mid Atlantic about the items that they use. The top two are birth control and Cipro to end urinary tract infections. They also provide counseling and direction for unplanned pregnancy (directing people to Planned Parenthood). There is a vested financial interest in unprotected sex and its consequences, and the items are a large profit center (and yes I am a part of Big Pharma, but with no exposure in the birth control area).

Not considered are the millions of potential taxpayers that have been terminated since Rowe v. Wade. We boomers will look back and regret the errors of our ways when we are sucking the system dry and have been responsible for ending the lives of millions of potential contributors. Oh- and yes- abortion is morally wrong- I wanted you to look for a moment at the practical side.








frost, pro-life, or choice.
__It's exactly what wrote. It's a choice! Whether legally sanctioned, or not, I'm letting Christians know they will live, or die, with the consequences. It's no skin off my teeth, I've seen the judge face to face, and have been given the opportunity to give a helping hand. Born during a time abortion was illegal, and of responsible parents, who would never entertain the notion. Could be I'm speaking for those who never got the chance. Time will tell, and I'm not worried.

I'm not certain - - -
- - - about exactly when these figures were compiled, but they may be enlightening...?

Brazil, where abortion is not "allowed" -- (and with 40% of our population) has TWICE AS MANY ABORTIONS-A-YEAR.
At the end of the 1900s it was estimated that 100,000 women have died in Rumania by ILLEGAL abortions since they were outlawed.
Those nasty coathangers again.....
Battered children??? 2.2-million abused each year. "Unwanted burdens"
450,000 kids suffer abuse or neglect - or are in forester/state facilities... "Who wants THEM"?
Adoption??? 51% are non-white minorities - but most prospective adopting parents want white or healthy kids.

Those are a couple things often overlooked, neglected in analysis, or uncomfortable truths that the anti-CHOICE zealots convemiently forget.

I'm not "for" abortion -- just CHOICE. Candidly, I can't stand those sanctimonious sould who'd presume to tell my daughters what they may or may not do with their bodies.

My first wife and I were pro-Choice, we had two kids. My second wife and I were pro-CHOICE and had three children.

I rest my case.

Hey, Expounded - - -
- - I read somewhere that the countries with the least abortion include Belgium with an abortion rate of 6.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44. The Netherlands, 6.5. Germany, 7.8. In the USA it’s 22. THEN, compare it to countries where abortion is illegal: Egypt, 23; Brazil, 40; Chile, 50; Peru, 56. Thus, if pro-life laws are the best way to reduce abortion, then why are the world's lowest abortion rates found in Pro-CHOICE countries -- while some of the world's highest abortion rates are in countries that outlaw abortion?

Analogy is true
A good friend was a long-time counselor at a student health center at a major university. It bothered him how many girls came in requesting a referral for abortion and how many young people had STDs. He mentioned his feelings at a professional conference (a LARGE professional gathering of psychologists and social workers) and was told, hey, it keeps us working.

A couple of years later he quit the high-paying job to become a low-paid missionary to runaway teens. At least now, he says, I can tell them the truth about sex and its consequences.

Sex ed is often conducted by organizations like Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood gets paid to teach sex ed, then it gets paid to perform abortions and treat STDs. So, yes, that would seem like a conflict of interest.

It's like hiring your heating fuel company to tune your furnace. The fuel company's money is made through the sale of fuel, that's why they offer such low tune-up prices. So, do you really think they're tuning your furnace to peak efficiency? My husband was in the trade. They aren't. They have a conflict of interest and they know which side of the bread the butter is on.

It's the same with Planned Parenthood teaching "safe" sex education when they make their majority money off the consequences of failed "safe" sex education. Conflicts of interest always harm the customer before the service provider.

And, some of you think this is a good idea????

264,943 abortions in the 2006
__And I'll bet all those Christians who voted for a candidate who supports abortion, have no qualms with this number. They, instead, voted for a candidate who supplied a greater good for those living among us. We will never know what good may have come from those lives shortened before they drew their first, independent, breath. We do know some good was done somewhere, somehow, for somebody, following their independent passions.

The worst person in the world
is someone who works at Air Canada. Without question and without doubt. Or perhaps they are all tied for No. 1.

I am tired of waiting for sex to go out of fashion. I think I will go get a pizza.

non-profit?
Would anyone explain what the extraordinary donations the Gate's and other lib billionaires hand PP each year are? profits? or opportunities with which they intend to lure ever more naive young adults/legislators/supporters into the ugly world of the depraved who'd rather kill their own offspring than consider themselves children themselves, of the Creator of the Universe who's judgement is yet to come.

Frost
I agree with everything you said. By the logic presented in this article, cardiologists invest in fast-food and tobacco companies hoping to inspire more heart attacks, thus increasing their own income. Gotta love those angioplasties.

Scott
I am not sure to what degree violence can be glorified in a way that does not encourage violence in the way that the glorification of sex encourages sex (not that it exactly needs encouragement).

"gun dealers" begins with a "g" "abortion provider" begins with an "a" that is a clear difference between the two. It does not show that there is a disanalogy between the two. In general one needs to not just show a difference, but also to show why that difference is relevant.

Barber's attack is that Planned Parenthood supports abstinence plus sex ed because they have a vested interest in increased teen pregnancy. This is a simpleminded argument on many levels, one of which Ken captured with his analogy to gun owners who do have a vested interest in the rise in crime, but do not therefore act to support a rise in crime rates.

Barber's attack is particularly silly because most serious studies support the benefits of abstinance plus sex ed, so to get the evidence that Planned Parenthood is acting out of self-interest one needs to believe that the people at Planned Parenthood believe the studies otherwise accepted only by CWA over the studies accepted by just about everyone else.

As I noted in my comment to religious lib, planned parenthood is a group run mostly by people who see themselves as do-gooders who could make more money more safely elsewhere. I assume the same is true of the crisis pregnancy centers. So it is hardly surprising that planned parenthood would support the measures that would reduce their business. After all a reduction in abortions would give their doctors more time to work at their more profitable private practices.

Ray
Would you prefer your partner to say, "By the way, I have AIDS but we don't need to use a condom because my Abstinence Only teacher said they don't do any good"?

Awards Given Here
Anyone who believes this nonsense is definitely The Stupidest Person in the World.

JMan
Congratulations on actually looking at the annual report and seeing that Barber had tricked you into thinking that his claim about their profits came from that report. It is a bit odd that that is not how you phrased what you discovered, but no doubt that was just a stylistic oversight.

I actually noted that the 3% was not a listing of profits in the parenthetical remark that followed the claim. I was noting that Barber had simply made up his figure, that is why I gave it as the closest relevant statistic and noted that it was not actually a breakdown of profits by specialization.

While abortion is a more expensive procedure, it does not follow that it is a more profitable procedure for Planned Parenthood, since it is a much more time consuming and procedure, and Planned Parenthood is dealing with a clientele that cannot pay top dollar. For the obvious political reasons, their other services are more likely to be receive government funding and so are likely to be more profitable. (Note that a significant portion of the money that comes in is in the form of grants rather than fees for service, and these are less likely to be for their abortion services).

So I hope we can agree now that Barber's claim that most of Planned Parenthood's profits come from abortion is not based on anything in the annual report, and that the annual report is consistent with abortion being a cash cow and with it being a loser subsidised by their other services.

Hmmmm -
As I recall, it was James Dobson who brought Randall Terry's "Operation Rescue" to the sttantion of the world; was he not the one who introduced Mr. Terry's concept, perhaps?

And, while I mean no disrespect, my faith and trust in those "professional" evangelists is certainly lacking. If you require an example who most can relate to, look no farther than Born Again's Jimmy Carter.

And, again, concerning Planned Parenthood, in my mind, it's a pretty good organization. One of my sons wanted to borrow some funds so that a young woman might acquire an abortion. My wife suggested Planned Parenthood - - which would have terminated a very much unwanted pregnancy -- but they made those appropriate tests which discovered that he was not the potential father after all.

Incidentally, the young lady was kicked out of her parents' "fine Baptist" (or Pentacostal?) home. And my son put her up in a separate bedroom until, as it turns out, she didn't have an abortion but made arrangements to carry the fetus to term and had the baby for a couple who wanted to adopt.

Planned Parenthood asked for nothing for those tests/couseling. And they, obviously, didn't push the abortion idea -- in fact, they cheered her decision to help that couple who wanted to adopt.

No -- too many insufferable "social conservatives" make my skin crawl with their holier-than-thou attitude(s).

Ken
I am not referring to the individual employees but the organization as a whole, including its Washington lobbying activities. They actively lobby for more taxpayer money and to promote "comprehensive sex education". They WANT young people to have sex. This is because they make money from selling them contraception, testing them for STD's, "counciling" them on sexual issues, and if they get pregnent, encouraging them to have and providing them with abortions.

If PP really wanted to discourage unplanned pregnancies, they would stop promoting the only action that leads to unplanned pregnancies. But if they did, they would have to rely exclusivly on other-than-pergnancy services, which would cut out their profitable abortion product line.

If the American Cancer Society started promoting smoking, obeisity, laziness and processed food, then your argument would make sense. But they don't. Same thing with the animal group. These groups actually have compassion for cancer patients and animals respectivly, which is why they promote policies that help them. PP, on the other hand, promotes policies that are demonstrably detrimental to teenagers and their children.

Ken
"Of course not, but it's raised to counter the implication of Barber's that the "lion's share" of profits comes from abortions."

You are countering the implicatiions of the article by "implying" that abortions are only a small amount of PP. How is this any better than Barber?

Isn't it curious
Every time somebody writes a column concerning teens and sexuality, the leftist/libertine trolls come out in force. Why is that, I wonder? Have any of you guys been on Dateline recently :P?

Jman
"The 3% is the proportion of total 'procedures' that abortion represents. For this calculation, an abortion = 1, an AIDS test = 1, and providing BC = 1. It is NOT the proportion of Planned Parenthoods PROFITS derived from abortion."

Of course not, but it's raised to counter the implication of Barber's that the "lion's share" of profits comes from abortions.

Barber would like many to think that PP is simply an abortion mill -- i.e., that's all they do. (In fact, a commenter above seems to think this is true).

Ray, sorry for the omission
The word "profit" does involve more than just money. Thanks for your agreement...

Frost
Fetus Removal Business doesn't have the same ring to it.

Tell me, do most of the pregnant women on Frost Island walk around excited about the "fetus" in their belly?

frost has clouded judgment; and Ray
frost writes: "...Dobson's good buddy Randall Terry is so anti-sex, he's goofy..."

First of all, Terry is no "buddy" of Dobson's. Second, as a pro-life evangelical, I renounce, repudiate and excoriate Randall Terry and his rhetoric.

Will you, similarly, renounce Olberman and Planned Parenthood?

My God - - "baby murdering?"
Zealots can be rather "trying" -- and the anti-Choice folk, scary. Really.

Just as noted earlier, supercilious guys like James Dobson and his troops gnash their collective teeth and suffer terminal angst about the "Sex and Violence" on the TV and movies, right?

I have NEVER (repeat, N E V E R !!!) heard them cite any violence, ever. They're just a tad too busy looking thru bedroom windows and trying to ban the "Morning-After" pill. Sex-crazed dingdongs!

Strange part is, it's sexual REPRESSION THAT causes weirdos to unleash their craziness.
Dobson's good buddy Randall Terry is so anti-sex, he's goofy -- read his quotes and those others who would love to ban ALL contraception.

Nutty people, who'd probably love to bring back the rack and village stocks, 'ay?

Jman
Jman asks: "Are you actually claiming that PP would want to promote policies that make people LESS likely to engage in the very behavior that supports their livlihood? "

First of all, let's dispel the notion that working for a non-profit is some tremendous "livelihood". You're not selling BMWs to high society folk. You're performing standard medical services to (quite often) low income people. It's preceisely *because* it isn't a money machine that PP has to rely so heavily on government grants and donations.

But behind your question (and blatently stated in the Barber article) is the conspiratorial notion that PP employees and volunteers secretly WANT kids to get pregnant and have STDs. Are you willing to extend that conjecture to other organizations? Does the American Cancer Society (another non-profit organization which makes money) secretly *want* people to have cancer? Does the ASPCA secretly hope that nobody gets their animals neutered?

If so, you're getting into tinfoil hat territory here.

Or maybe you just don't understand the concept of altruism.

John Konop
Have you Ever made a post that was actually On topic?

Just curious.

Do you trust FOX news?
Fox News: We Report — Even if We Know It’s False
Do you trust FOX news?

HP-I’ve been dealing with the media and politics for 25 years, but I’ve never had a more surrealistic day than January 8. Several times that day Fox News reported that I was joining Sen. Hillary Clinton’s campaign. It was a big story - at least until the stunning election returns.

The only problem was, it wasn’t true.

Fox News never even tried to contact me to verify their story, and when I contacted Fox, I felt like a character in a Kafka novel — or at least Curb Your Enthusiasm


READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/fox-news-we-report -even-if-we-know-its-false

Planned Parenthoods 3% Myth
All those quoting the 3% figure from PP's annual report seem to lack critical thinking skills, so I will try to lend help.

The 3% is the proportion of total "procedures" that abortion represents. For this calculation, an abortion = 1, an AIDS test = 1, and providing BC = 1. It is NOT the proportion of Planned Parenthoods PROFITS derived from abortion.

Abortion is an invasive surgical procedure that is more expensive than STD testing or contraception, so these numbers are useless with respect to this article. They do however, represent a clever attempt by those at Planned Parenthood to minimize the appearant importance of abortion to their bottom line in the eyes of uncritical observers like Ken and Lon.

A questin for ken
Ken wrote:
"Contraception: 37%
STD testing: 29%
Cancer Screening and Prevention: 20%
Other Women's Health Services: 10%
Abortion: 3%

That's right. THREE.
Making a profit off abortion? Puhlease."


Ok, I'll play along.

One question, If Abortions only make up 3% of their services, can you explain why they just built a huge 100+ bed Abortion Factory in indiana????
By the way, they bought the property and built the building under a shadow company to hide the fact of who was really moving in till it was ready to open.

Why is this? If liberals are such a Majority in this country, PP should be parading down the streets to the front door!

Could it be that they know deep down in those shriveled little raisins they call hearts, that they are actually a small minority, and have to hide their true intentions from the world?

Nah that can't be it, they are the "enlightened ones"

264,000 potential geniuses.
264,000 potential life saving surgeons.
264,000 potential world leaders.
264,000 potential Mozarts.

Oh wait, I forgot, they're just "Bundles of cells".

You libs want to know why the world's problems haven't been cured?
You aborted the people with the answers.


phileo???
I am not sure I understand your point. The people who practice abstinence certainly benefit from it by not getting sexually transmitted deseases. Is that what you meant by 'profit'? If so, I agree with you. If not, what???

Federal Tax Money goes to PP
Planned parenthood gets some funding from Federal Tax Dollars. (up to $200 Million annually depending on the year)

....and somebody said the baby murdering business is not profitable?

common sense
Does Planned Parenthood profit from providing abortions? Yes.

Does this mean Planned Parenthood would profit from teens' being sexually active? Yes.

Finally, who profits from abstinence education? The people who practice abstinence, of course.

Common sense makes sense, doesn't it.

Lon - Recheck your facts
I'm afraid Planned Parenthood tricked you. Don't feel too bad that you fell for it. The 3% figure you quoted was based on the total number of procedures conducted. This means that an abortion = 1 and and a HIV test = 1. While this breakdown has absolutly nothing to do with the total financial contribution of the specific procedures, you tried to pass it off as refutation of Barber's claim that the "lions share" of PP's profit comes from performing abortions. I don't want to assume malice when stupidity would suffice but you don't seem very stupid.

Since reasonable people can disagree about exactly how large the "lions share" is, it is difficult to say that Barbers statement is unequivically correct. What we can say, however, is that your apples-to-oranges comparison is decidedly NOT evidence against his claim.

As far as my "strained disanalogy", I never mentioned the NRA so I am not sure why you decided to invoke them. You also assert that PP promotes policies that reduce their necessity without any evidence that their policies do in fact reduce their necessity. They make money from contraception, prenatal care, STD testing and abortions. Sexually active people are the only ones that need services like these. Are you actually claiming that PP would want to promote policies that make people LESS likely to engage in the very behavior that supports their livlihood?


Lon - Recheck your facts
I'm afraid Planned Parenthood tricked you. Don't feel too bad that you fell for it. The 3% figure you quoted was based on the total number of procedures conducted. This means that an abortion = 1 and and a HIV test = 1. While this breakdown has absolutly nothing to do with the total financial contribution of the specific procedures, you tried to pass it off as refutation of Barber's claim that the "lions share" of PP's profit comes from performing abortions. I don't want to assume malice when stupidity would suffice but you don't seem very stupid.

Since reasonable people can disagree about exactly how large the "lions share" is, it is difficult to say that Barbers statement is unequivically correct. What we can say, however, is that your apples-to-oranges comparison is decidedly NOT evidence against his claim.

As far as my "strained disanalogy", I never mentioned the NRA so I am not sure why you decided to invoke them. You also assert that PP promotes policies that reduce their necessity without any evidence that their policies do in fact reduce their necessity. They make money from contraception, prenatal care, STD testing and abortions. Sexually active people are the only ones that need services like these. Are you actually claiming that PP would want to promote policies that make people LESS likely to engage in the very behavior that supports their livlihood?


The Safe Sex Rap
P.P. will be putting out this "song" next.

The Safe Sex Rap

We know you're gonna do it, so do it, do it!
Everybody does it so do it, do it!
Only squares don't do it so do it, do it!
And when you go to do it, do it with a condom!
Ah do it, do it! Do it do it do it!
Ah do it, do it! Do it do it do it!
C'mon man, just shut up and do it!

Is that comprehensive sex ed or what?

Lon - Part 2


Lon writes: “If noone had abortions, Planned Parenthood would lose the income it gets from abortion, but it would also dispense with the expenses related to abortion. (Think of the savings in the cost of security that Planned Parenthood would have if they dropped abortion as a service).”


Now you’re cookin’ with gasoline ;-)



~~~



Lon writes: “Since abortion represents a comparatively small proportion of their business, it is not clear that it would hurt their bottomline.”


I have not yet seen anyone provide a link to the official Planned Parenthood annual report to support any of the various allegations that have been made. Mr. Barber has characterized the situation one way, you have characterized it another way. I have not seen the annual report, and I don’t know if it has been independently certified.



~~~



Lon writes: “Or to put it another way, it is not clear that the abortion market that Planned Parenthood serves (which is mostly on the poor side) is currently profitable.”


A certified financial report should clear up any such ambiguities, yes?



~~~



Lon writes: “The above figure for profits (which is not actually the right label in the case of non-profit since the money is not being taken out by anyone in the form of profits) is attributed to abortion by Barber above, but not based on any evidence.”


Then again, let’s see the evidence, a certified annual report.

And “profit” would seem to be an appropriate word to use for income generated over and above costs and expenditures in this context. Whether or not that “money is not being taken out by anyone”, we can be sure it is being used by someone, for something…


Lon - Part 1


Lon writes: “It is true that human beings have a drive towards sex, but they also have a drive towards violence.”


I think most humans are familiar with the “sex drive”, but I was not aware of an equivalent “violence drive”.


To the best of my understanding, absent human manipulation of sperm and eggs, sex is the only means of human reproduction.


Violence may be one possible means of achieving a desired outcome in any number of situations, but it is certainly not the only means.



~~~



Lon writes: “And do you really think that media glorifies sex but not violence?”


I never suggested any such thing, quite the opposite in fact:


Scott wrote previously: “First, adolescent children don’t have ‘murder hormones’ racing through their blood, and while they are unfortunately bombarded with murderous violence by all forms of media, (so far) those portrayals of murderous violence do not (generally) encourage emulating the behavior, unlike the sexually suggestive images these children are (also) bombarded with (which do encourage emulation).”


I acknowledged that children are bombarded by BOTH “murderous violence” and “sexually suggestive images”, by “all forms of media”.



~~~



Lon writes: “It is true that crime does not require a gun, but it isn't clear what that is supposed to match on the sex side.”


That’s good, you have correctly observed that I was demonstrating why his analogy was inappropriate.



~~~



Lon writes: “If people did not commit crimes or get protection from crime clearly gun dealers would lose a large part of their income, although certainly not all of it.”


But that wasn’t Ken’s argument, was it?


His argument was a non-sequitur (among other things) to begin with. He said that gun makers have a vested interest in promoting murder (and other crimes) “because” that will “cause more people” to “commit crimes”.


You're kidding - -
Ol' Keith is a SUPERB sports commentator, but, as a "real" anylist of life, politics, et al.???

And maybe he does have a point.

Those insufferable moralists/social conservatives are utter bores and damned near laughable (if they weren't so sanctimonious as to cause one to summarily barf) - - - -

As a Deist and "Small-L" Libertarian, I'll only watch Keith's crap on the NBC NFL pre-game, and I take no joy in EVER tuning into NBC......

That whole super-conservative enchilada is about as valid as Nancy Reagan's "just-say-no" fiasco.

And, have you noticed - - supercilious guys like James Dobson and his troops gnash their collective teeth and suffer terminal angst about the "Sex and Violence" on the TV and movies, right?

I have NEVER (repeat, N E V E R !!!) heard them cite any violence, ever. They're just a tad too busy looking thru bedroom windows and trying to ban the Morning After pill.

Then, finally -- I hate to rock-the-proverbial boat, BUT - - in my mind, Planned Parenthood is a pretty good organization. A son wanted to borrow some funds so that a young woman might acquire an abortion. My wife suggested Planned Parenthood - - which would have terminated a very much unwanted pregnancy -- but made the appropriate tests, which discovered that he was not the potential father after all.

Incidentally, the young lady was kicked out of her parents' "fine Baptist" (or Pentacostal?) home home.

And my son put her up in a separate bedroom until, as it turns out, she didn't have an abortion but made arrangements to carry the fetus to term and had the baby for a couple who wanted to adopt.

No -- too many "social conservatives" have a tendancy to make my skin crawl with their holier-than-thou attitude(s).

Ken
You have some points there...but you have to look at the numbers more completely. The article also mentions STD's i see 29% of their income from STD testing. That ends up being a large number.

Contraception is also a large portion but they promote them so thats all fine and dandy with the public right? lol

You compare costs and income but Health medical Center is probably different than medical services and is probably much smaller than it too. I could see them hiding profits in those areas in a place like that.

religious lib
non-profit doesn't mean good intentions all the time. now they all start out good probably but most of them end up with someone making loads of cash. Even places such as the Red Cross...only like 10% of your dollar gets to where its supposed to...the rest go to the people and costs.

One more thing
And in case it isn't obvious, if MOST of PP's health services are geared toward contraception (37% as opposed to 3% for abortion), how can anyone seriously claim that PP is encouraging kids to have sex so that kids will get pregnant?

It seems to me that if an organization was *truly* interested in kids getting STDs and becoming pregnant, the LAST thing they would do is exert time, resources, and money into providing contraception.

Scott's right
My math was off -- waaaay off. Serves me right for doing math in my head.

But even then, $211 profir per abortion is ridiculous. And as another commenter pointed out, PP is a non-profit organization. It's wrong to call it a "profit" anyway, no matter how bad I (or anybody) bulloxes up the figures.

In fact, when you look at the raw numbers from its 2005-2006 annual report (available online), PP's revenue for the 2005-2006 was 908 million dollars. 38% of that comes from "Health Center income". That amounts to (I got my calculator, Scott) $345 million.

It's total expenses was $847 million. 65% of that was on "Medical Services". Or $551 million.

It's clear then that PP isn't making a "profit" from its medical services.

Might it be that the abortion portion of PP's business is booming -- to the detriment of its pregnancy screening, pediatric, HIV testing and other medical services? Sure it's possible. But that would require one to be blind to the realities of business (and possess tunnelvision as to the anti-abortion cause).

Oh yeah, one more thing from the annual report: a breakdown of PP's health services --

Contraception: 37%
STD testing: 29%
Cancer Screening and Prevention: 20%
Other Women's Health Services: 10%
Abortion: 3%

That's right. THREE.

Making a profit off abortion? Puhlease.

Be real
Promoting the use of condoms alone as a, much less the, preventative for sexually transmitted deseases is ridiculous. If you think otherwise just imagine the next time you are about to have sex with someone for the first time and your prospective partner announces, "Oh, by the way, I have AIDS, but not to worry, here is a condom".

religiouslib - ad hominem attacks?


religiouslib writes: “i am pro-life but the idea that planned parenthood wants girls pregnant so they can make money on abortions is the most ignorant statement i have ever seen in print.”


Then clearly, you don’t read very much. A trait you perhaps share with Ken ;-)



~~~



religiouslib writes: “is this author ignorant or simply nuts.”


I believe he is neither, but since you are the one throwing these charges around, certainly you must be prepared to support them with evidence and present a clear and coherent case against him?



~~~



religiouslib writes: “this author is a whacko and i do not say that lightly.”


You have publicly suggested that Mr. Barber is “ignorant or simply nuts” and now you have accused him outright of being a “whacko”, admitting that you “do not say that lightly”.


Without the “weight” of anything more substantial than your personal opinion, in what way could you possibly be saying these things *besides* “lightly”?


religiouslib
The issue is actually a little trickier than you suggest. It is true that non-profits do not work on the kind of model that CWA misleadingly suggests in criticizing them. But obviously a fair number of people draw incomes from PP and so it is quite possible for a lot of people to make money off of a non-profit and so to have a vested interest in its success.

That said, it just illustrates the silliness of the charge in this case. Providing abortions to women of limited means is clearly not a high profit endeavour for doctors whose training allows them to expect decent incomes, and who could do without the threats to their lives and property that comes with providing abortions. So the idea that they are in it for the money is pretty silly.

As should be no surprise to people on either side of the issue, the people involved with PP consider it a cause, and for the most part make less money because of their involvement than they would pursuing less contraversial jobs. The same is likely true on the pro-life side, although there may be a few on either side who have found a way to make money off of the cause.

That is the real disanalogy with the gun industry which is driven more by profit than love of cause. Not that there is anything wrong with profit.

Huh?
I guess I never really thought about PP being a for profit company, just always assumed that they were non-profit. Pretty obscene profits.

JMan
I'm afraid Barber tricked you. Don't feel too bad that you fell for it. According to PP's annual report, Planned Parenthood took in more money then it spent last year. The claim that the lion's share of PP's profits came from abortion is an undefended aside from Barber. Actually if one looks at the PP annual report the closest claim one gets is that abortion constitutes 3% of their services. (The figure that Barber quotes is total revenue vs expenses and is not broken down in this way).

There is a difference of opinion on whether the policies supported by PP increase or decrease teen pregnancy. Concerned Women for America says they increase teen pregnancy. The evidence says they decrease it.

Similarly, your disanalogy is somewhat strained. After all, Planned Parenthood doesn't make money from pregnancy, (or from sex) they make money from how people respond to pregnancy, or how they prepare for sex. Similarly the NRA makes money off how people respond to crime, and how they prepare for it. Each group lobbies the government in ways that affect their bottomlines. Although in point of fact PP is in the odd position of lobbying for sex education that it believes reduces the need for its services, so there is a disanalogy there. I don't know of anyway that the gun lobby tries to lobby for a reduction in its necessity.

Matt Barber
Can you say conflict-of-interest? While I agree that Olbermann is a spittle-throwing fool, Mr Barber has just written an article defending the president of an organization that he is very much associated with. His byline does not say whether he is on the CWA payroll but he has a clear association that may cloud his points. I agree that planned parenthood is actively engaged in the death of millions of babies and profits from it. Condoms are not effective birth control. When my youngest son starts to talk in a few months, I'll let him tell you all about it. Abstinence works but only when the kids are not surrounded by endless appeals to "do it, but in a responsible manner". Giving out birth control to kids is idiocy; if you are mature enough to have sex, then you are also old enough to procure your own condoms on your own dime.

HA HA
You all have been duped or a LIB if you believe anything that OBERMOUTH is spewing. I couldnt even finish the story.

ah planned parenthood is non-profit
which kind of destroys the authors whole theory doesn't it.


Scott
Your disanalogies above seem somewhat puzzling, even when if they were apt they would be a bit puzzling. It is true that human beings have a drive towards sex, but they also have a drive towards violence. And do you really think that media glorifies sex but not violence? Is there a sex video game equivalent of Grand Theft Auto? (Actually there could be since the sex industry has been very technologically forward thinking, but I don't know of the equivalent).

It is true that crime does not require a gun, but it isn't clear what that is supposed to match on the sex side. If people did not commit crimes or get protection from crime clearly gun dealers would lose a large part of their income, although certainly not all of it. If noone had abortions, Planned Parenthood would lose the income it gets from abortion, but it would also dispense with the expenses related to abortion. (Think of the savings in the cost of security that Planned Parenthood would have if they dropped abortion as a service). Since abortion represents a comparatively small proportion of their business, it is not clear that it would hurt their bottomline.

Or to put it another way, it is not clear that the abortion market that Planned Parenthood serves (which is mostly on the poor side) is currently profitable. The above figure for profits (which is not actually the right label in the case of non-profit since the money is not being taken out by anyone in the form of profits) is attributed to abortion by Barber above, but not based on any evidence.

Ken Laughable Arguments
Ken -
Your analogy is clearly false. Gun manufacturers don't make money from crimes, they make money from selling guns. PP, on the other hand, makes money from abortions and pregnancy services, largely among teenagers and younger women. They also actively attempt to influence the government to promote "educational" policies in school that make pregnancies more likely. Gun manufacturers have not done anything similar, and if they did, the public outcry againt promoting gun violence in school would obviously stall their efforts.

You also argue that because PP does not make ALL of its profit from providing abotions then they do not have a vested interest in promoting abortions.

Since the NFL does not make ALL of its profits from selling tickets to the games, does this mean that the NFL does not have a vested interest in promoting the games and ticket sales?

Finally, the original author states that according to PP's annual report, "the lions share" of PP's profits come from abotions. This means that your claim that, "And those account for the profits just as much, if not more, than abortions." is not only a lie, but an easily debunkable one at that.

Ken - "profit argument" not disproved...


Ken writes: “No, your smarter readers (even those opposed to abortion) are probably aware that Planned Parenthood performs a variety of non-controversial medical services, including HIV testing and pediatrics. And those account for the profits just as much, if not more, than abortions.”


Declaring that “HIV testing and pediatrics” accounts “for the profits just as much, if not more, than abortions” is an assertion without substantiation, an opinion without supporting data.


The “smarter readers”, particularly in light of your previous comments, might like to see verifiable accounting records from Planned Parenthood before accepting your highly improbable analysis of profits being derived ‘equally’ among abortion procedures, HIV testing and pediatrics…



~~~



Ken writes: “So much for the "profit motive" argument.”


The smokescreen you’ve deployed here has done nothing whatsoever to contradict or disprove the “profit motive” argument.


Worst Person in the World???
Considering the constant mantra of the leftists, you would think that there is no contest - President Bush must be the Worst Person in the World.

Ken - a product of 'New' Math???



Ken writes: “Furthermore, your more astute readers have already figured out that Planned Parenthood clearly doesn't make most of its profits from abortions. You're not suggesting that the $55.8 million profit came from 260,000+ abortions, are you? Because that would mean Planned Parenthood is making a profit of over $20,000 PER ABORTION.”


I certainly don’t want to speak for the “more astute readers” if they’re already spoken for by Ken, but for those readers who have access to a calculator, please try dividing $55,800,000 (profit) by 265,000 (abortions) to see if it does not work out to about $211 per abortion, NOT $20,000.


Conversely, 265,000 (abortions) times Ken’s claimed $20,000 per abortion equals approximately 5 billion, three-hundred million dollars ($5,300,000,000).


That seems to be a miscalculation of extraordinary proportions…


But that’s just according to my calculator…



Ken - Not a good analogy... at all.



Ken writes: “That's about the most bone-headed thing I've ever read.”


Then clearly, you don’t read very much ;-)



~~~



Ken writes: “Let's try that logic out elsewhere, shall we?”


Yes, let’s do.



~~~



Ken writes: “ ‘Gun manufacturers have a vested interest in promoting murder (and other crimes), because that will cause more people to buy guns (to either commit crimes or defend themselves)’ Sounds silly, huh?”


It sure does, but that’s because your analogy is so poor.


First, adolescent children don’t have ‘murder hormones’ racing through their blood, and while they are unfortunately bombarded with murderous violence by all forms of media, (so far) those portrayals of murderous violence do not (generally) encourage emulating the behavior, unlike the sexually suggestive images these children are (also) bombarded with (which do encourage emulation).


Second, crime does not require a gun, and neither do gun makers require crime to sell guns in order to make a profit. Planned Parenthood, on the other hand, clearly seems to depend on abortions for their profit, and without these abortions, would not appear to be a financially viable enterprise.


So your comparison between Planned Parenthood and “Gun manufacturers” does sound silly… for many good reasons, certainly including others not yet mentioned.



Ken
Hey Ken, I'm glad you make some points on the other side of the coin here.

I'm not a fan of planned parenthood, I actually think they're kind of slimy in many ways and I don't trust them, I think they do have an agenda.

But I also don't like being told "facts" about something when they're not entirely true. Whether it's about the "Global Warming" scam or this story, I want to know the truth about these issues.

I think it does conservatives a great disservice to pander facts like those stated above as true, when it may not be entirely the case.

And your comparison of gun manufacturers is a pretty good one (and I think everyone should carry a gun to reduce crime). I can't poke any holes in it at this point, your logic seems right.

If you're against abortion that's fine, I can see why people are against it. But don't use arguments such as these as ammunition.

In regards to sex education I do think schools and government in general have NO business teaching kids anything about sex. That's the job of parents, not government.

author is stupidest person in the world
oh my gosh

i am pro-life but the idea that planned parenthood wants girls pregnant so they can make money on abortions is the most ignorant statement i have ever seen in print.

is this author ignorant or simply nuts.

olbermann names three people a night "best person in the world" and three "worst person in the world".

he has even named himself "worst person" a couple times.

oreilly is now copying him with his "pinheads and patriots" nightly selections.

this author is a whacko and i do not say that lightly.

Laughable
"It doesn’t take a Phi Beta Kappa to figure out that Planned Parenthood — one of the foremost cheerleaders of “comprehensive sex ed” — has a vested interest in seeing that young girls become pregnant and have abortions."

That's about the most bone-headed thing I've ever read.

Let's try that logic out elsewhere, shall we?

"Gun manufacturers have a vested interest in promoting murder (and other crimes), because that will cause more people to buy guns (to either commit crimes or defend themselves)"

Sounds silly, huh?

Furthermore, your more astute readers have already figured out that Planned Parenthood clearly doesn't make most of its profits from abortions. You're not suggesting that the $55.8 million profit came from 260,000+ abortions, are you? Because that would mean Planned Parenthood is making a profit of over $20,000 PER ABORTION.

No, your smarter readers (even those opposed to abortion) are probably aware that Planned Parenthood performs a variety of non-controversial medical services, including HIV testing and pediatrics. And those account for the profits just as much, if not more, than abortions.

So much for the "profit motive" argument. And I'm left wondering why you have to make such obvious and misleading statements to support a really weak thesis. Surely the CWA isn't THAT desparate.

Keith Olbermann
Olbermann wasn't very good as a sportscaster either...
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