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Monday, September 18, 2006
Mary Katharine Ham :: Townhall.com Columnist
Unreasonable People Will Not Keep the Pope from Reasoning
by Mary Katharine Ham
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The Pope has offered two non-apology apologies for his Tuesday remarks on Islam, which if an apology must be offered, is the only kind he should utter:

The Holy Father thus sincerely regrets that certain passages of his address could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful, and should have been interpreted in a manner that in no way corresponds to his intentions.

On Sunday, he reiterated:

Pope Benedict XVI said Sunday he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction sparked by his speech about Islam and holy war and said the text did not reflect his personal opinion.
"These (words) were in fact a quotation from a medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought," Benedict told pilgrims at his summer palace outside Rome.

Have you read the Pope's comments in context? You should. The entire speech is fascinating, and makes clear that he used the Islam passage in question to illustrate a larger point about the intersection of religion and reason, and the consequences of separating the two. I'm snipping some shorter, relevant parts, but the whole thing is recommended.

This profound sense of coherence within the universe of reason was not troubled, even when it was once reported that a colleague had said there was something odd about our university: It had two faculties devoted to something that did not exist: God. That even in the face of such radical skepticism it is still necessary and reasonable to raise the question of God through the use of reason, and to do so in the context of the tradition of the Christian faith: This, within the university as a whole, was accepted without question.

Benedict sets up his Islam comments extensively. He's quoting a discussion between an "educated" and "learned" Persian and a Byzantine emporer on the subject of Christianity and Islam.

I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by professor Theodore Khoury (Muenster) of part of the dialogue carried on -- perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara -- by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

It was probably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than the responses of the learned Persian. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Koran, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship of the "three Laws": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran.

In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point -- itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself -- which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason," I found interesting and which can serve as the starting point for my reflections on this issue.

Here it comes:

In the seventh conversation ("diálesis" -- controversy) edited by professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that sura 2:256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion." It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning holy war.

Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels," he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The emphasized quote above is the one the "enraged" are citing, of course attributing it to the Pope, not the Byzantine emporer. But if you take that quote out, do you get a different reaction from the world's Muslims? I don't think you do. In the next paragraph, Benedict criticizes forced, violent conversions as incompatible with the nature of God. Frankly, these days, there's one major world religion to which that criticism is much more readily applied than any others.

The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...."

That sounds like a version of blogger Instapundit's statement of this weekend, "If they're that insecure about their religion, maybe the problem isn't with the critics."

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.

As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?

Is he talking about the War on Terror? And, isn't that next sentence a variation on the "are Islamic societies compatible with democracy" question? Benedict then moves onto the rest of his speech, and Islam doesn't show up again until the end.

But were his Islam comments just a way to illustrate his larger point? Nah. Benedict knows his comments are heeded and publicized.

I don't buy the "bumbling un-media savvy Pope" storyline a) because I resent the implication that the leader of a major world religion is under any obligation, media-imposed or otherwise, to avoid discussing another world religion in an academic setting and b) because the Pope wears Prada. Dude is not out of touch. Heck, he's halfway to his own celebrity favorites list on iTunes.

I'm with The Anchoress on this one (and I feel like, when talking about the Pope, that's probably a safe place to be):

Whether he is “media savvy” or not, Benedict has managed - in his very scholarly fashion - to apply a very hot drawing poultice to the enormous and festing boils of both radical Islamism and rampant secularism.

Benedict, as illustrated by the mere language of this speech, is much smarter than the press folks accusing him of blundering, here. He worked for years under John Paul II, one of the most politically active and aware leaders the Church has ever had. He knew what he was doing. Not only that, but he knew he was traveling to Turkey in November-- his first trip to a Muslim nation. This was no accident.

Benedict didn't bury his Islam comments in the middle of the speech where they might have been missed. They were right up front. And, in case anyone missed it, he wrapped with them, too:

The West has long been endangered by this aversion to the questions which underlie its rationality, and can only suffer great harm thereby. The courage to engage the whole breadth of reason, and not the denial of its grandeur -- this is the program with which a theology grounded in biblical faith enters into the debates of our time.

"Not to act reasonably (with logos) is contrary to the nature of God," said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.

It's an invitation from the Pope to Muslims-- an invitation to reason, an invitation to dialogue. Will you accept, Benedict asks? The response?

R. S. V. P., baby.

Now, we've got a best-seller predicting the assassination of the Pope in Turkey, and a Somali clerk demanding Islamists "hunt down and kill" the Pontiff.

The Anchoress says it feels like 1981 again, and those who like that might end up sorry:

Call it Karma. Call it God, or “Cosmic energy” or whatever you like. I don’t think it liked those assassination attempts in 1981, for things certainly (and quickly) doubled back and bit the asses of those who applauded the violence...

If you’re one of those pathetic people intrigued with the idea of someone, or some entity, assassinating Bush or Benedict, heed my warning - be careful what you wish for. Payback will be a bitch. And you won’t see it coming. You didn’t last time.

This will continue to escalate. No apology will be acceptable. They don't play much football in Muslim nations because of those tricky moving goalposts indigenous to the region.

Benedict is not a blunderer. He is a brave man and a scholar. He values his freedom to speak out, reasonably and critically, about other world religions, and he's not willing to relinquish it, even a month before he is to put himself in probable danger by traveling to a Muslim country in the wake of his remarks.

He is also a man of faith, who may have hoped against hope his invitation would be accepted, and put the response in God's hands.

Some say-- the NYT comes to mind-- that Benedict's comments were provocative, that they constituted just an unecessary addition to all the "religious anger in the world." Sayeth the utterly clueless Times:

The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly. He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology, demonstrating that words can also heal.

You wanna see "sowing pain?" You wanna see "dangerous?" Keep an eye on the attacks on Christian churches throughout the Middle East in the next weeks. Keep an eye on Western embassies. Already, an elderly nun has met her end, shot in the back by jihadis in Somalia. There’s a Catholic priest missing in Baghdad.

Words can heal. Benedict's were a proclamation that unreasonable people will not keep him from exercising his own capacity for reason.

The fact that the New York Times, and much of the West, don't share the same determination is much more dangerous anything Benedict said.

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About The Author

Mary Katharine Ham is a contributor to Townhall Magazine.

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Vexing questions
The Pope invites Muslims to engage in reason and to question violence (the sword)as a means to spread their 'faith'. So far the response has been less than reasonable.

I suspect that Benedict indirectly posed more vexing questions to Muslims. Did he really ask the questions "Do you want to be part of a religion that suppresses the gift of reason that God gave you? Do you really believe violence validates your beliefs?"

For the Muslims who riot over this...
...Muslims who riot over an academic citation...truth is not arrived at by investigation and logic. Truth, for them, is what the victor of the battle says it is. If you spill your enemy's blood, then you've won the debate too. Case closed. It's the kind of debate that you don't have to go to the library to study for.

Wow
I wonder if we'll ever have a president with the cahones a celibate Pope.

Islam is every body’s religion
Islam is every body’s religion. This was the ‘Will of Almighty’ that He blessed our common father Abraham for his chosen religion for all the human beings living on this planet.
The Word revealed to Abraham, in dissention came down to Moses and then going through the phase of reformation by Jesus, (peace be upon them all), reached Muhammad (pbh) at the summit, for its final stride to accomplish and achieve the adulthood/ perfection of human conscious.

The word which was initially revealed to Abraham (as) is Islam, meaning peace and one’s submission to God Almighty in totality. No one has the monopoly in God’s religion. All are equal in the eyes of Almighty God.

Islam very respectfully confirms all the previous stages, Judaic as well as Christianity of evolution in religion.

The controversial statement of pope is a well measured move.He is known old rival of Islam. Only he is coming up in his true colours now.
The word of truth of Islam is spreading in the west at a tremendous pace that is the only thing he seems worried about.

Policy of suppression and maligning of Muslim by the west for all the wrong doings in the world has started back firing.

Being an old emulator, he believes in irruption of some conflicts and to create anarchy between two major religions so that the agenda of Christian dominance can be push forward during his tenure.

Where his statement may instigate the Muslims to rabble- rouse and rave a rage, he is also aiming at giving a stir up calls to sleeping cells of Christian extremists.
His statement must be condemned out rightly but Muslim community must show wisdom and guard against felling into set trap.

He can easily be brought on the mat, through dialogues.

An atmosphere of calmness must be observed at all costs.
May God Almighty blessings encompass us all!
----------------------------------

Love for all, Hatred for None

Where's tanabear?
C'mon tana, please explain to us how this is just their culture, and we MUST accept and live with it!

The Towel-Heads
are blowing up Anglican churches in Gaza over the Pope's remarks. Which proves that this is just an excuse for them to kill people.

"I told you, Jawas have no hearts."

Khokar
....you're full of hog manure. Mohammed was a murdering, child raping liar who had to invent a fictitious past for a fraud of a cult. Abraham was NOT a "muslim." He was from Ur of the Chaldees, as I recall, and with Isaac established Judaism. Christianity emerged from Judaism, but we show our roots in it with Communion, which is based upon the Passover seder, and our belief in a loving God who commands us to follow His commandments and His way. His way, is NOT taqqiya. His way is NOT jihad. His way is not using some verses in the Bible to abrogate others. No one has suppressed your cult, rather your cult has killed millions who chose not to follow it. It isn't Christians blowing up restaurants, Iraqi Army recruiting offices and shooting nuns in the back (real ballsy thing to do.....shoot an old lady in the back. Yep, ol' Moe must be real proud. He seemed to have a tendency to sneak attack those who meant him no harm, too). It's Muslims.

You show me one thing of value Muslims contributed to the world (Algebra? Oh, thanks!), and I'll show you THOUSANDS of things that Christians and Jews contributed. Islam is a sham, a fraud, a cancer on the face of this Earth and deserves nothing less than complete eradication. If he lived today, Mohammed (pig manure be upon him) would just be Warren Jeffs with a towell on his head....a polygamist child molester who leads a cult. A bit more violent, as to my knowledge Jeffs hasn't tried to conquer anyone, but still as sleazy and as foul as any other rapist.

Islam is NOT everybody's religion. Jesus was a Jew. I am a Christian. You are a heathen. Please don't group my Savior in with your perverted false prophet.

Defender of the Faith
The Pope is charged by God as Defender of the Faith. His duty which was tasked upon him by God is to speak out to Christians and on behalf of Christians (particularly Catholics of course but all Christians in the aggregate) to point out where we are correct and where we are off the rails. Currently in Canada there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth because the Pope pointed out that CATHOLIC politicians who claim they can put their Catholic religion in a box while they practice their politics are tragically mistaken and they need to choose either one or the other and stand by it or else. That is his duty. Instead of realizing this, the GLBT and the pro-choice people are bawling that the Pope is violating "The Separation of Church and State" which is not even a CANADIAN concept in the first place. His Holiness is practicing that task given him by God. He is calling the faithful to BE faithful and pointing out the danger to their immortal souls. That's what he's supposed to do.

Likewise it is his task given him by God to defend his flock from the ravening wolves outside the sheepfold. This he is doing with the army that he has. That would be us. He is standing up and showing us by example what we need to do, and proving the old Army maxim "You can't push a string." That is, you have to lead by getting out in front.

The Muslims are behaving like the teenager who reacts to her mother's decree that she's not old enough for all-night parties by throwing a screaming tantrum. By their behaviour they are proving exactly the point His Holiness made. And we all remember the forced conversion of the Fox reporter and photographer (cowards that they were -- they will pay dearly for their cowardice in the future, I bet). How's that fit in with what His Holiness said?

Look, either we're going to have to fight them or they're going to kill us. When are we going to realize that and put on the whole armour of God?

Khokar
Islam is not, and never will be my religion. I see no need to follow a misogynistic, schizophrenic pedophile and call him a prophet. You are free to believe what you want, but please do not presume to tell me what I believe.

Pray for the Holy Father
Simply put, we must pray for His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI. Persecution is everywhere. The West is becoming as decadent as the Middle East. Everything good and moral has been traded for the lies of satan. It all boils down to our lack of respect for life. Killing people and then saying, "it is good." It is my choice. I choose to have reproductive control over my body--which is the same as saying, "I can be as out of control with my body as I want." Every single commandment is broken with ease of body and mind. I thank God for my parents--parents of great and holy faith. My mother who sacrificed her own career and supposed, "self fulfillment" to raise her seven children--all accepted as coming directly from the hand of a personal God == a God interested in every aspect of our lives and interweaving events in ways we can never understand until death. A father (who worked in a tannery for 43 yrs.) but could be seen every night by his bedside on his knees. The family morning prayers, the grace before dinner, the family rosary. Believe it or not, there are still families like that out there. Parents who put their children first. Patiently teaching them the love of God and the beauty of family traditions. I believe that there are many families doing just that. Toiling daily at their personal relationship with Jesus and being blessed with amazing grandchildren and great-grandchildren because God does bless faithfulness. Thank God for Pope Benedict--pray for his safety and his witness to remain strong and unwavering....

The secret of Muslim success...
Is that in 1500 years, they've chosen to avoid the cultural pitfalls of success, peace, prosperity, Democracy, etc...very wise.

Islam is spreading in Europe because of the empty and suicidal nature of Secular Humanism, not by any virtue of itself.

Even if/when Islam does succeed in conquering Europe, it will "succeed" only in turning Europe into the same miserable oppressive dictatorial dirtpark that other Islamic societies are.

God bless the Pope for saying something true.

A president with cojones?
Jerubaal...we have one now, but unfortunately only
half the people understand that. That ignorant
half would prefer a windbag that follows the polls.

Don't call us violent
or we'll cut your head off.

It's the Violence and Death
"I suspect that Benedict indirectly posed more vexing questions to Muslims. Did he really ask the questions "Do you want to be part of a religion that suppresses the gift of reason that God gave you? Do you really believe violence validates your beliefs?"
GnuCarSmell

Okay I found examples in both the Old and New Testaments of "Infanticide" which was declared abhorant to the Lord. But only within Islam do I see mothers urging their children to become human guided bombs. That the best a child could ever do is kill.

"When they love their children as we do..." I dunno, is that even possible?


SharpsRifle
Described the religion of peace in one sentence.

"Islam is a sham, a fraud, a cancer on the face of this Earth and deserves nothing less than complete eradication"

One can only image what they must hear as they are walking out of the Masque. Go brother in the name of peace, and remember to keep your vest near by and filled with explosives just in case you are called upon by Mohammed to spread the word of Islam, which could include having to blow yourself up and as many other innocent people as possible. Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.

Apologize?

For what? Let me get this straight. Pope Benedict, in a scolarly presentation of ideas, quotes a Benedictine Monk from the 14th century inferring that Islam is a violent religion. Today, the savages hung up in the 7th century insist their religion is not a violent one and to prove it they scream "Death to the Pope," muder a nun, burn churches in the West Bank and Gaza, and fan the flames of hate and discontent through out the Middle East. God, don't these savages have anything to do but rampage through the streets threatening death and destruction to all those who refuse to convert to their idiotic religion. How about mowing the lawn once in a while, or fixing a toilet where indoor plumbing exists, or planting some flowers.

Apologize? How about vaporize, Abdul? Bombing you back to the Stone Age would be an improvement.

IsLam IsHate
Like communism & Nazism, Islam was founded on hate & envy and will never deviate from it. The responses of Islamists to the pope's statements of truth validate his statements re Islam.

Khokar
Would you educate us on the subject of Islamic jihad? The concept of jihad does not seem peaceful to non-Muslims.

Peace be with you.

SharpsRifle and other friends

It is a simple matter of one's understanding of God's religion and the mechanics involved in it.
Religion carries the teaching of Almighty God for us to cherish and mould our day to day lives as per his will.
Ignorance of these teachings and their mechanics amounts to cursing ones life.
It’s God's own design and his sweet will that how best he chose to set his system of teaching for the wellbeing of man kind to bring them out from state of ignorance to the adulthood of conscious.

God need not to ask any approval from any religious figure, etc to execute his will. He revealed His word to Abraham. So he did. For a subsequent delivery, He chose whom so ever he wanted to and wilfully chose.

What we should understand that God needs a full submission of human being to his will.
Abraham, Moses, Jesus , Mohammad (peace be upon them all).All are God’s own chosen teachers.

Didn’t I say that pope statement is well measured! He wants us to start blowing hot and cold.
It’s provocative. An irresponsible give out.

Thinking it ripe for his measured blow, he wanted to avail a big scoop from the lopsided and phoney but raging and ill conceived war on 'terrorism' in which thousand of innocent Muslims are being put to death by western design and their infrastructure destroyed.
He is looking for a rise in graph of his popularity, on the dead bodies and destruction of many innocent and destitute human beings.

If a statements of a person of that stature is not a measured one and it is a slip. And he does not even admit to be his folly.
Fairness of the business demands that he need not to stay there.
----------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none



Irony is not in the Islamic dictionary
So the Pope quotes a 14th century Byzantine emperor who claimed that Islam was a violent and evil religion, and to prove that they aren't violent and evil, they go on a murderous rampage, burning churches, burning the Pope in effigy, and threatening to murder the Pope. Is it just me, or does it seem like a requirement to be accepted into the Islamic faith, one must have an IQ below room temperature?

Dear Tecreck and friends

A Cry for Jihad

When ever there is news of any killing or loss of life is involved in some incident. Our Media is always ready to test it through their high held prism of ‘Terrorism’. Media services are always very quick to respond and happy to present that news in the refined, crystal goblet of ‘war on terror’.

There are many, many dissident groups, found operating in the world who are involved in remorseless killing of innocents. But the word ‘Terrorism’ is mostly restricted to single out the Muslims and their connection to their religious belief of Jihad.

Term Jihad is used as a catch word and a quick way of ascribing of any news of killing to the fanatics groups, found in Muslim world…. And With out any hesitation!

But Jihad in Islam is described in a very different way. This is an earnest effort put forward by a person into reformation of ones self or say, striving in the way of God to reform ones inner self to be a better person. Personal reformation takes the priority over reformation of society. Subject of ‘killing of an oppressor’ or ‘killing in defence’ comes at the very last on the list, (as a lost resort). So in principle, it may not be fair to ascribe any killing of innocents to the religion Islam and malign the Muslims as such.

Any how, in the ‘contest of killing and jihad’, we have to see that:

a. Is Jihad fostered and cherished by Muslims only or do we also find some thing equivalent and comparable of Jihad which tantamount to the same meanings in other religions?

b. Are the people leading their lives in other religions i.e. in, Christianity ,Judaic, Buddha or Hindu societies have, some how thoroughly been humbled and emasculated or say, removed and civilised to that degree that they don’t have any urge left, to kill any body even when they are oppressed or in their self defence,( as a lost resort).

c. And what are the actual practices found on the ground. Where thousand and thousands of people are being put to death, their properties are destroyed and children and women being massacred and maimed. All this that we see, is being done then, on what account?

The killing prescribed as a lost resort in Islam in defence or to raise arm against the oppressor, is too mild and looks peace loving than the commandments found in other religions.

Surprisingly, commandments found in other religions are much harsher.

For Instance the Christianity prescribes an instant killing of a person who worships any god, other than the Lord. (See the links at * & **).

‘Eye for an eye’ and ‘killed with the sword to be killed by the sword’ and like wise versions found in other religions are the subjects to be pondered upon, through colour less glasses only.

After all why we find that Middle Eastern countries where, predominantly Muslim nations live remain blazed in wars?

Why their entire society seems to be engulfed in an atmosphere of anarchy and violence. Why the killing and destruction is prevalent every where?

Who is the oppressor here? Who is the invader? Who is being killed and who is at rampage to kill?

A cry for Jihad is heard all over in the Middle Eastern world! Why?

What is the real cause or motivation behind this controversial out cry of extremism?


We all know that leading organisations like, Hamas and Hezbollah that we find in Middle East are the product of continuous oppression, deprivation and persecution spread over a many long, long years. They are the resistance organisations, fighting for their freedom and liberation of their home land and preferred way of life.

Spirit behind their cause and motivation is worth exploring.

History of freedom is universal and full of writings, written with the flowing blood of freedom fighters. Every sacrifice where the blood flows is counted a positive step forward and glorifiable in the eyes of martyrs by all the nations, till the time the oppressor surrenders.

Denial of freedom is death. Means of survival are limitless.

The civilised world is to think cool for this and respect and reach for the sacred cause behind each suicidal fatality.

Islam is peace loving religion and follows the laws of nature. Nature does not accept any suppression. Avoid ill concieved ideas. You are bound to get recoil action.

Links recommended:
*The Bible: The Lord here commands the destruction of all the places where people worship other gods. There appears not a shred of religious tolerance here! ...
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htmihad is never said to be doomed or

**The Bible: Condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. ... When he's done with the killing everyone will know that he is the Lord. ...
skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html -condemned. Generally word
----------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none
________________________________________


Its like reading Mien Kampf
Khokar writes: The killing prescribed as a lost resort in Islam in defence or to raise arm against the oppressor, is too mild and looks peace loving than the commandments found in other religions.

After all why we find that Middle Eastern countries where, predominantly Muslim nations live remain blazed in wars?

Why their entire society seems to be engulfed in an atmosphere of anarchy and violence. Why the killing and destruction is prevalent every where?

Who is the oppressor here? Who is the invader? Who is being killed and who is at rampage to kill?

A cry for Jihad is heard all over in the Middle Eastern world! Why?
.
.
.
.
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Just who is the oppressor In this case? Look internally. For over 1000 years the muslim lands were subjugated by the Ottoman Empire, only after its defeat by the Western Powers in WW1 where the Middle Eastern nations set free. The only oppression in the Middle East is being conducted by its own governments and religions.

Did the Pope call for peaceful dialogue?
Comment by Richard Tryon

Thank you Mary Ham for pointing out the origin of the Pope’s now media portrayed as an infamous example of how Western Christian theology can so easily offend the Muslim concepts and cause their militant members to cry for Jihad!

If the Pope can carry the message to Muslim leaders that you have illustrated so well, it should compel all intellectual Muslims to come to grips with what their God really wants. If it is to repeat the same mistake that the Popes of the past did in the middle ages when the Inquisition forced my protestant ancestors to flee France in 1550, then all Christians- protestants and Catholics alike should be pleased to let Pope Gregory carry the facts and lead the discussion in a way that represents all Christians.

If Muslims can agree with us that God does not call for Jihad to murder so-called infidels, or persons not accepting Sharia law as interpreted by radical Muslim Mullahs, then it must try to do for the Muslim faith what Protestants did for Christianity, albeit not in any perfect manner. That is compete for souls to accept one faith or another.

Yes, we still do have Christian extremists in both Protestant and Catholic camps that lose sight of God’s true nature and come to think in terms of Jihad as being unfortunate but ok. But, there is no endless supply of these people standing ready to force others via suicide to make the choice of accepting the Muslim faith or die! Jews in Spain made such choices in the middle ages at least superficially just to surive. Did any of the Inquisition leaders feel that these conversions were real acts of faith?

If successful, this Pope Gregory may help the Muslim leadership enforce a discipline among the radical minority that gets them to understand that true conversion can only come from evidence of how Muslims can live by rational laws. The Pope may need some Protestant help in showing that such also includes the recognition of the importance of freedom, not only for males under Muslim law, but also females! This, of course, would be the most amazing conclusion possible.

Could Romans Catholics and Muslims both accept the Protestant argument for freedom and equal opportunity for females as well? That would be a great change and step to make terrorists wonder?

Islamofacism
The reaction of the so called "peace loving" moslem islamists just verifies what the Pope said about this truly evil cult. It also proves how intellectually inferior they are. The Pope set a trap and they fell right into it.

Laughter is the best medicine
Keepontryon writes: Could Romans Catholics and Muslims both accept the Protestant argument for freedom and equal opportunity for females as well? That would be a great change and step to make terrorists wonder?

.
.
.
.
Perhaps you might explain yourself a bit. I was not aware that Catholics were against freedom and equal opportunity for women. That will come as a shock to several hundred million people.


Transformation
I continue to hear that Jihad means only a form of self transformation. I must assume that is the transformation from living to deceased, as that is the only transformation I see getting called a "Jihad". In fact, of late, it seems to be the only self-trasformation most of the middle east practises at all.

Prophets
Khokar, you list Jesus and Mohammed as follows: "Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad (peace be upon them all). All are God’s own chosen teachers." Jesus was the Son of God, God incarnate; Abraham and Moses were two of his prophets, and Mohammad doesn't fit anywhere in that picture. He was a self-serving, self appointed messenger of hate, destruction, terror, rules and regulations, and nothing of what he said is in the least spiritual, or holy...it is all evil. How can you hope to defend the indefensible to reasonable people?

First, let's get it straight that Allah, and that the Christ of the Bible are two separate and distinct personages...Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. How could God, if Allah and Christ are the same, instruct Christians to "love" and Muslims to "hate, kill, lay in wait, murder, cut off limbs, and strike terror into the heart of all "non-believers?" Does that compute?

"Believe what I believe or I will kill you?" Christian spirituality is of the heart, not of the sword, and you only have to defend something with brutality and force if you are not prepared to discuss or debate the efficacy, truth, or reality of your beliefs.

The Muslim byword is: "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up, you DIE!" And the so-called "moderate" Muslims dare not criticize or fail to support the terrorists because they would be targeted and killed also. Terrorists and their Muslim supporters have no respect for human life...either Muslims, Christians, Jews, or any other living creature. Mohammed was a pedophile, was uneducated and illiterate, yet Allah chose him to "reveal" his "truths?" I don't think so.

If I didn't have a job, a wife, any money in my pocket, any future, no music, no art, no entertainment, no dress code other than black, had no respect for women, had no transportation, any creature comforts, no love, a closed mind that has been brainwashed, and if I had sat under the Imams for my whole life rocking back and forth reading the Koran, I guess blowing myself up with explosives would be a better option than living. And if I do that, I can take 70 members of my family to Paradise with me, so my mother wants me to kill myself...the whole Islamic community is psychotic...they are certifiably insane. Quelle Dommage!

Pope Quotes
The Pope and all Preachers quote writings by thinkers both current and historical and they quote scripture. Fundamentally, they quote passages that support their basic beliefs. Some things said are original in style but accepted in concept. The Pope believed the concept embedded in what he quoted, after all he did not quote the other side of that argument--Muhammad's side. The Pope was right; we see that everyday in the actions and reactions of the practitioners of Islam. Islam's place in the brotherhood of man is untenable. There is only one solution to the irrational behavior exhibited by Muslims in the Middle East today--total war using every weapon at our disposal to change the Muslim doctrine that demands spreading their religion and thought by force. The longer we wait, the more radical they will become, which will lead to more deaths.

Pope's comments
It’s has been a painful transition to many of us Catholics to go from the venerable John Paul II to hardliner Benedict XVI. His comments truly were a regrettable mistake and not all together new. He has long had a reputation for fundamentalism which has no place in the Mother Church. It wasn’t so much a lack of sensitivity as it was a lack of foresight. The pope must always be circumspect because when he speaks, he speaks for all Catholics and Catholicism as well. We don’t need a gutsy pope; we need a courageous one. It is a common mistake to confuse ‘balls’ with courage.



Muslim haters don't listen

Instead of "non-apologies" the Pope gave Muslims EXACTLY what they wanted. Here's the full text, unedited.

"I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address which were considered offensive. These were in fact quotations from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought."

The final sentence leaves Muslim-hating Christians twisting in the wind. The Pope's personal thoughts oppose their hysterical claims ... no surprise, Popes aren't known to be haters, and haters don't much care for reason.

His apology/clarification was thus politically masterful.


The Only Good Muslim

huh?
MikeR writes: It’s has been a painful transition to many of us Catholics to go from the venerable John Paul II to hardliner Benedict XVI. His comments truly were a regrettable mistake and not all together new.
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Apparently you know very little of teachings of John Paul II. Joseph Ratzinger carried out the wishes of John Paul II, he was the hammer in the pope's hand.

movwater
Your last paragraph above makes my point and if you don't see that , you don't understand what I said. The Pope believes as you stated in your last paragraph--would Mohammad have believed likewise? I think not. Mohammad strongly supported compulsion in religion and spreading Islam by the sword. That is clearly not the message the Pope was espousing and the quotes he used were in line with his religious philosophy.

Unreasonable People
"We shall break the cross and spill the wine . . . (May) God enable us to slit their throats" etc. etc. etc.

Gee, what's so "evil and inhuman" or, for that matter, unreasonable about THAT?!

N.B. I'm being SARCASTIC!!!

Faith is the problem
Hasn't the real threat always come from people with radical religious beliefs? The real war going on today is between faith and reason. To believe that any religion has contributed to the advancement of mankind is shortsighted. Religion is a method for controlling thoughts and actions, certainly not for promoting or advancing ideas like democracy and capitalism. Society and civilization have advanced in spite of religious beliefs, not because of them. The time has come to end this nonsense. Those that believe in god, any god, should be treated as suffering from a mental illness.

movwater & Hockey Goon
Yes I read the entire text. While I understand the point the pope was making, I also understand that any speech must be tailored to its audience. The pope has a world wide audience and everything he says is the church itself speaking. That’s why his poor choice of words was regrettably. He could have said the same thing in another way and still made his point.

Yes, I am biased against Benedict, but what of it? Bias is a virtue here. As to that issue: It has been many years since I left the missionaries and spent long periods in a monastery but I have always maintained a close study and tight relationship with the church. You’ve all read my posts. Haven’t you wondered where my liberal streak came from? John Paul II was not a fundamentalist. Although enfeebled, he was reaching a purity of faith through his many hours of meditation that was rarely seen in the past few centuries. Ratzinger, far from being a ‘right hand man’ was a driving power seeker who capitalized on the pope’s enfeeblement. He filtered all communication between the pope and the rest of the world. Ratzinger garnered enough power to ensure his ascendancy. His desire to rise in the church and his stanch fundamentalism is a matter of record. To quote his own sources, “As "Grand Inquisitor" for Mother Rome, Ratzinger occupied himself in service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it reared its ugly head -- and, consequently, had received somewhat of a notorious reputation among the liberal media and 'enlightened' intellegensia of pseudo-Catholic universities.” And that is putting it in the most positive light possible. Hockey Goon, nothing is apparent or I might question if you are even Catholic let alone read as extensively as I have. Why would a grown man refer to himself as ‘Hockey Goon’?

Islam needs to grow up
This incident just highlights that Islam as a culture needs to grow up and join the rest of the world. Christianity did, in a process reaching from the 16th into the 20th century, in which tolerance became an accepted principle. That is, Christians may not agree with people of other faiths, or with each other, but generally, it is unacceptible to resort to violence because of those disagreements. The Muslim reaction around the world is a childish reaction. And any Muslim who reads this, if you disagree, if you believe that that description does not apply to you, then you need to exert yourself to bring your brethren around to your brand of expression.

Unreasonable People II
Gol-ly! A nun shot in the back -- THREE TIMES!!! What a tremendous lot of courage THAT must have taken some brave practitioner of the "religion of peace." I guess they must mean the peace of the grave!

Good to know you
MikeR writes: Ratzinger occupied himself in service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it reared its ugly head -- and, consequently, had received somewhat of a notorious reputation among the liberal media and 'enlightened' intellegensia of pseudo-Catholic universities.”
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http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

Next time quote your sources when you cut and past an entire posting. If you don't know what you are talking about please don't be so shallow as to borrow the biases of others and pass them off as your own.

A journey of divine knowledge

From ignorance to adulthood of man’s conscious.

I will say:
* Abraham* after receiving the word of Almighty God taught the basic education to his followers.

• Moses* took his tribes on excursion and while trailing around Egypt and Palestine and consolidating his tribes educated them to school level.

• Jesus* transformed the Judaic society education and through reformation gave them and left the followers with graduation degree.

• While reaching at the summit with Muhammad*, it is confirmation of all the previous teachings and attaining a PhD in divine knowledge.
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(* peace be upon them all)

----------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Taqqiya
Khokar is practicing "taqqiya", which is a deceptive ruse encouraged by the Koran and by Muslim clerics. It is a way of deceiving infidels into thinking that Islam is peaceful and harmless, while they actually are gearing up for war. It is mainly identified with Shiites, though historically Sunnis have used it as well.

From Koran commentator Ibn Kathir:

"Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than believers." However, he adds an exemption for "...those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."


Presumptuous
I imagine the Holy Father has forgotten more about faith, reason and religion them any of us ever learned. His devotion to the Holy Trinity and the Incarnate Word has lasted a lifetime. I find it amusing to read persons' writings where they pretend to know and understand the issues as if they knew enough to correct him. Keep him and all of our leaders in his prayers. We must continue to seek ways to end this clash between Islam and the rest of us peacefully. However, I am afraid it will be impossible without our Lord's direct intervention.

Unreasonable People...
KHOKAR,

First, you lineage/academic model defies logic (typical of the follower of a false prophet),
Why would the Lord Jesus (one-third of the blessed trinity) work to save mankind (that's right, not personkind!!)from the shackles of a "legalistic" Hebrew faith only to have mohammad come along a few hundred years later and return the work to the rigid dictates of islam? Poppycock! One wonderful result of this debate is that maybe islam will finally receive the scholarly dissection it so richly deserves.
Jesus warned us to "know false prophets by their fruits". Ahhh, the fruits of Islam, we see them everyday..boom!

Prayers
our prayers (not his)

Mohammed....
was, as I said before, Warren Jeffs in a robe and turban: A fraud, charlatan, pervert and liar. He was a murderer, a thief and a sex maniac. The only PhD he had was in conning and intimidating people to join his filthy cult.

Comparing the Prince of Peace with the Son of Shaytan is a sacrelige to Christians and Jews alike. Mohammed got his reward and is burning for it in the fires of Hades....as will Usama bin-Laden and the other murderers and killers who preach that false belief.

SharpesRifle
Well said, right on target...so to speak!!!

Yawn
Fernando types, "Hasn't the real threat always come from people with radical religious beliefs? The real war going on today is between faith and reason. To believe that any religion has contributed to the advancement of mankind is shortsighted. Religion is a method for controlling thoughts and actions, certainly not for promoting or advancing ideas like democracy and capitalism. Society and civilization have advanced in spite of religious beliefs, not because of them. The time has come to end this nonsense. Those that believe in god, any god, should be treated as suffering from a mental illness."

As in, for example, Soviet SOCIALIST Russia -- the nation whose Constitution REALLY said, "separation of Church and State?" @65 million murdered.

Or, for another example, Maoist SOCIALIST China, whose leader said "Religion is poison?" @35 million murdered.

And I left out Pol Pot's SOCIALIST Cambodia, Kim's SOCIALIST Korea, Castro's SOCIALIST Cuba, etc. ad nauseum.

Take all the dead of all the wars of all the religions in the world, including the Religion of Peace (TM), and you have a small fraction of those murdered by SOCIALISM.


Khokar
You do greatly err. Jesus IS God. How do you think He feels about you insulting Him as equal to or lesser than that camel-juice drinking fly-eating kiddie raping acid tripping murderer Mohammed?

A Prophet From Thy Brethren
Dear Friends,

The fact is that before Jesus, Moses had also foretold of a great prophet in clear and precise words. When Moses went to Mount Horeb under the command of God he addressed the Israelites saying:

The Lord thy God will raise unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him ye shall hearken. (Deuteronomy 18:15)

And again, God's words to Moses:

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass that, whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)

It is evident from these verses that Moses foretold a Law-giving Prophet who was to appear after him, and who was to be from among the brethren of Israel.That he was to be a Law-giver and not an ordinary Prophet is obvious from the words "like unto Moses", since Moses was also a Law-giver. The promulgation of "a new Law" means the initiation of a new movement, a new nation. A prophet with a new Law is obviously no ordinary teacher or reformer. He has to present a comprehensive teaching, incorporating fundamental principles as well as detailed rules.

Was Jesus such a prophet? Was he a Law-giver? Did he bring a new Law into the world to replace an old one? The answer, in his own words:

Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto You, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18)

And the followers of Jesus went so far as to declare:

And the Law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. (Galatians 3:12-13)

Jesus laid no claim to a new Law; his disciples regarded the Law as a curse. It was the Holy Quran which announced from the very outset that:

This is the (complete and perfect) Book, there is nothing of doubt in it. It is a guidance for the righteous. (The Holy Quran 2:3)

The prophecy also said that the Promised One was to be raised not from among Israel but from their brethren. Muhammad was from the brethren of the Israelites, the Ishmaelites.

It also told that God would put his words in his mouth. The New Testament gospels do not consist of words which God put in Jesus's mouth. They only tell us his story and what he himself and his disciples said and did.

The Holy Quran, on the other hand, says:

Say,O Muhammad, I am a man like unto you: Only the word of God come unto me. (The Holy Quran 18: 111)

The prophecy spoke of "words which he shall speak in my name." Strange as it may seem, there is not a single example of words which Jesus may be said to have received from God with the command to pass them on. The Holy Quran, on the other hand, specifically claimed to be the word from God.

The words of the Lord had announced that the Promised One would be a prophet. Jesus, according to the Christian evangelists, did not claim to be a prophet. Matthew reports that he asked his disciples:

"Whom do men say that I the son of man ..?"
Peter replied that he was the Christ. the Son of the living God.
(Matthew 16:13-16)

Thus Jesus denied being either John the Baptist or Elias or one of the prophets. Muhammad was proclaimed as not only a prophet but also as "like unto Moses," when the Quran said:

Verily We have sent to you a Messenger, who is a witness over you, even as we sent a Messenger to Pharaoh. (The Holy Quran 73:16)

In short, one thousand nine hundred years before the advent of the prophet of Islam, Moses declared that his own Law was, in the divine scheme, not the last Law; that the world was to have a fuller Law later on; and that, for this God would send in the latter days another Messenger of His. This Messenger was to teach all truth; it was he who was to mark the last stage in the spiritual advance of man. The world had to wait for another book and another Prophet.

If, therefore, the Quran and the Holy Prophet have come after the Bible and after the Prophets Moses and Jesus, and if they claim to have come from God as guidance to man, their claim must be treated as just and true. It must be taken as the Fulfillment of ancient prophecies. The revelation of the Quran was not a gratuitous revelation, a redundance in the presence of other revelations. Indeed, if the Quran had not been revealed, promises made by God through His messengers would have gone unfulfilled, and the world would have become afflicted with doubt and disbelief.

With best of regards to all my friends.

------------------------------

Love for all, Hatred for None

Fernando
I noticed no one responded to your post, but I happen to agree with you. More has been fought in wars on the basis of religion than any other aspect of life.

Bottom line: if you're a good person, you don't need a dogma to tell you how to live; if you're an honest person, you don't need a commandment to tell you to be; if you're a decent human being you don't need a bible to tell you how to behave - you already know how.

I guess if you're not these things by nature, then you probably do need a bible to tell you how to "feign" good behavior since you can't summon it up for yourself on your own free will.

You don't need the threat of he** or purgatory to know that you should treat people with respect.

If it's in you, you don't need anything except your own conscience.

No Apologies Needed
And the Pope was correct in not issuing one. He said he apologized for the way Muslims interpreted his speech not for any thing he may have said. The medieval ruler who first had those views of a violent, forceful, bloody, unreasonable religion must have had similar experiences with the religion of hatred and violence. They are truly hypocritical and deserve no apologies from anyone much less the Pope. Islam does not mean anything to me. As long as they don't try to push it on me or hurt anyone in the process have at it, your welcome to your beliefs. I could care less about mohammed or Islam. I have my own Christian beliefs and do not need their views of how to live.

Mike R
It has been many years since I left the missionaries and spent long periods in a monastery but I have always maintained a close study and tight relationship with the church.

Mike R:
Hopefully you have maintained a close and tight relationship with Jesus. Pope Benedict was Pope John Paul II's best friend and he was the man for the job in John Paul's eyes. THere are few scholars as versed in ethics as Pope Benedict--a strong defender (hardliner?) of the faith. The Holy Spirit, once again, has moved powerfully in the church for our time in history--watch and see.

NEConservative
"And the Pope was correct in not issuing one. He said he apologized for the way Muslims interpreted his speech not for any thing he may have said."

Great post! I totally agree.

You can't have it both ways
DocNoleNat wrote "Take all the dead of all the wars of all the religions in the world, including the Religion of Peace (TM), and you have a small fraction of those murdered by SOCIALISM."

If God does exist, then the millions killed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao died because it was His will. Or, are you saying that all the people murdered by Socialism would have lived if there was a God?

Fernando
"If God does exist, then the millions killed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao died because it was His will."

That's correct. But those aren't killings done in His name. Sins of all sorts happen according to the will of God, but never in His name.

God is, by definition as well as reason, in control of everything that happens.

God is, by definition as well as reason,
God is, by definition as well as reason, in control of everything that happens.

That is the most ridiculous statement. "In control of everything" would suggest that no one then has free will to make choices. WOW! That's really a convenient way of taking the accountability and responsibility off of the individual and BLAME or CREDIT God for any and everything that happens. What a racket that is!

How's that victim thang working for ya?

The World Listens Carefully
to the words of the Pope. I am pretty sure that is true. I am also pretty sure ALL of Christainity is waiting for the Pope to step up to address the situation. Or fold like a used accordian. The Pope can either bring the Catholic Church into the struggle against world domination by the muslims or back off and mouth Bushwellian platitudes about how islam is an honorable and peaceful religion.

Pope Leo, Where Are You????

Understanding Islam

I've taught college students about Islam--its theology and its politics--for over 30 years. The resources available now online can be very useful. Here are a few of them that are easily found. I've chosen mostly sources on jihad, with a couple of others thrown in.

I will say bluntly that it is absolutely necessary to understand the sheer alienness of Islam. Differences between Islam and Christianity are not like differences between Lutherans and Catholics, or Baptists and Methodists. The differences go all the way down.

For starters, a short piece on jihad from Daniel Pipes:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

Here’s a Muslim site claiming that jihad isn’t really about violence.

http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad

Read this one to learn what our enemy—and yes—I believe Islam as such, not just so-called ‘radical Islam” is our enemy--believes

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/#why_fight

http://al-islam.org/short/jihad/index.html

This an exhaustive and authoritative presentation—tough going, but revealing. Here you’ll learn that jihad is, in part, a fight for the freedom of all mankind to believe the truth about God.

http://al-islam.org/beliefs/philosophy/jihadandshahadat.html

Another explanation and defense of jihad, this time emphasizing how cool martyrdom is,

http://al-islam.org/beliefs/philosophy/jihadandshahadat.html



This one explains why Islam prohibits music and dancing.

http://members.tripod.com/oum_abdulaziz/music4.html#B

Finally, why Muslims believe that Islam leaves no room for other religions; this shows that Islam itself, and not just some unpleasant version of it, is in principle opposed to freedom of religion.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=273

Check it out.

















movwater
If you are giving credence to your bible and the historical reference to it, then Muslims can do the same, thus their Qur'an is just as valid, as it's their bible from which they live as you live from your bible.

This is the inherent problem with all of this bible thumping/Qur'an speak, each side believes themselves to be right. AND these aren't the only religions who act on their version of the bible.

I go back to my original statements:

If you're a good person you don't need anything to tell you to be respectful and good to others.

If you're not, then laws are there to keep societies safe from you and they're not religious ones.

It doesn't get any more simple than that. Better you rely on your conscience than a bible. If you have no conscience, then society deals with you within its laws when you cross the line.

"Who decides what's appropriate?" You do. Each time you make the choice to do the right thing because you know it's the right thing to do, that's what's appropriate. We all know it. If you don't know it, then the act of self-destruction will ensue and consequences will happen irregardless of any religion.

If you do "what's right" in the name of god, then you're not doing the right thing because now you're taking a self-righteous attitude and acts of bigotry wrapped in religion. Dangerous.

movwater
"BTW, Jesus, the Christ, never mentioned another prophet so, Mohammed must be the false prophet of the Kaaba Stone."

AND you're just the type of dangerous individual that the world needs to stay alert to; you're the person that Ms. O'Donnel is talking about. I'm not a fan of ROD but this was what her statement was all about, people like you.

If you're denying someone else's belief in their "god" I'm figuring that you're enjoying that cup of ignorance that you drink from regularly.

movwater
BTW - thanks for revealing yourself so succinctly.

Gestell
Great post.

Muslims are leaving for another reason.
Al Quaida has issued an edict that the USA will suffer "a Hiroshima" within 2 weeks.
Therefore Muslims should get the "H" out.
The nuclear device(s), orignally from Russia, have already come in via the Mexican border.
The information is available on the web if you want to do some heavy digging.

If...
as Khokar claims, Mohammed is essentially the Messiah, then Mohammed is a false one, or, more accurately, is the anti-Christ.


Think on this:

Abraham, Isaac, Moses and the other prophets of the Old Testament were contacted directly by God. Jesus, the Son of God, also was in direct contact with God. Now, if as the Mohammedans claim, Mohammed was the last, the greatest, the seal of the prophets, he, too should have been contacted directly by God. But no. He was contacted by Gabriel supposedly. If Mohammed were supposedly so great, why did God send His secretay to contact Mohammed? Was He too busy? If He could find time for Moses, couldn't he also find time for Mohammed?

Next, look at what holy men share in common. Although I am not Buddhist, I do respect their beliefs. I as well have respect for Gautama...who gave up the wealth and comfort of a Hindu prince to live the ascetic life of a holy man. Moses gave up life in Pharaoh's court. Abraham was prepared to sacrifice Isaac for God's sake. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice to save the souls of all who accepted Him as Savior. What did Mohammed give up? Nothing. Rather, he took women, had sex with small girls, committed incest, ordered deaths and became fabulously wealthy. What's wrong with this picture?

The next life also is grotesquely different. In Christianity, happiness is spiritual....a state of joy unimagineable while alive that comes from being in the presence of God and having all sin cleared from your soul. What is "paradise" in Islam? A brothel. Constant sex, riches, booze and material goods.

Now we move to the next point: What was Jesus tempted with by Satan? Earthly power. What does Satan have to offer man, besides eternal damnation in return for loyalty to him? Earthly wealth and power. What does Islam promise those who swear allegiance to Allah? Booty in this world and wealth in the next. Allah can't promise joy in the presence of God, because Allah IS NOT GOD. Allah is Satan. God couldn't have been communicating with Mohammed because Allah's promises are promises God would never make, only the earthly ones of the Devil, the Great Deceiver.

When you stop and think about it, it makes sense. Satan wouldn't pick a weirdo like Anton LeVey to head his "church" because although the Church of Satan is a mockery of Christianity, it's too easy to spot. He'd instead create a whole religion made up of illiterate, angry barbarians, ready to kill those who follow Christ or the Law of the Old Testament if they fail to accept the blood stained words of Satan's voice, also known as Mohammed. He'd promise them wealth in this world (jizya), slaves, pillage, rape, multiple "wives"....all the basest desires of mortals. If those who followed him were killed by God's people, he'd make it a no-lose proposition, by "guaranteeing" his followers wealth, sex and intoxication in "paradise."

When you look at it, the opposites are quite striking. Christ commanded His followers to love their enemies. Mohammed commanded to kill those who didn't submit. God wants His people to be good and to be happy. Satan wants power.

I'd be willing to bet that the Infernal Regions are full of Muslim souls who actually believed that by kneeling to face an idol (the Qaaba), and by hating and disdaining "People of the Book" as kafir they were going to "paradise." What a shock they were in for, because they gave their souls to Satan, AKA, Allah. After all, remember when God said in the Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt not make unto Me any graven image," yet the Muslims pray to a rock.

Truthfully, as a Christian, I pity them. They've been deceived for 14 centuries, and Satan, who knows he cannot win against Christ, will continue to lead these poor, misguided, tortured souls straight to the Firey Pit....and too many Christians, Jews and those of other truly peaceful beliefs will die along with the deceived and deceivers.

Remember, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Taqqiya is a violation of God's law....no matter how many verses in the ignoble Koran call for lying to Christians and Jews.

Come to Christ. He will soothe your soul and free you from slavery to Satan. Otherwise, an American soldier can send you right to Allah/Satan. It's your choice.

MikeR

"We don’t need a gutsy pope; we need a courageous one. It is a common mistake to confuse ‘balls’ with courage."

Gets my vote for the quote of the month.

Movwater
movwater writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 1:18 PM
Re: Unreasonable People Will Not Keep th

Quoting me:
"The final sentence leaves Muslim-hating Christians twisting in the wind. The Pope's personal thoughts oppose their hysterical claims ... no surprise, Popes aren't known to be haters, and haters don't much care for reason.

"His apology/clarification was thus politically masterful."

**Movwater
"While the Pope expressed his non-acceptance of Manuel II's expressed belief about Mohammed, as taken from the Byzantine emperor's quote in a dialogue with an Islamic scholar in the 14th Century, he never related what his true thoughts on Mohammed and Islam were."

True. But the Pope obviously rejects about 90% of the posts here, from the Islamophobes.

**movwater
"Of course, the lecture in Bonn wasn't about Islam. It was about whether or not God is rational. In this lecture, if you have read it, the Pope takes to task all non-believers in a "rational God", whether they certain Protestant Christian Sect, Moslem, or Secular Materialists."

That's how I read it.

**movwater:
"Seeing how you are a professed atheist, I am not sure whether or not you "have a dog in this fight." That is unless you consider yourself a "Secular Materialist"."

I consider myself a taxpayer ... paying for a stoopid war.

OF COURSE atheists have a dog in this fight. It's as much cultural as it is religious.

Gretchen -- bigotry
Gretchen writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 1:24 PM
Unreasonable People II
"Gol-ly! A nun shot in the back -- THREE TIMES!!! What a tremendous lot of courage THAT must have taken some brave practitioner of the "religion of peace." I guess they must mean the peace of the grave!"

Gol-ly, that makes as much sense as blaming Catholicsm for Hitler (who was Catholic).




NRAlifer (ignorance)
NRAlifer writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 3:07 PM
HOW MANY
"libdolts will STILL fail to see the violence inherent in the Islamofascist religion?"

Probably the ones -- left OR right -- who have actually read the Koran.

Not everyone plays the game like you do: Ready, Fire, Aim.

Now, if you'd actually SAID something to support your daffy conclusion, then I could be more specific in proving you wrong.

I won't hold my breath for anything substantive from you. Prove me wrong on that. I dare you.



Martrini-Henry
Martini-Henry writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 5:07 PM
Unreasonable People...
KHOKAR,

"First, you lineage/academic model defies logic (typical of the follower of a false prophet),
Why would the Lord Jesus (one-third of the blessed trinity) work to save mankind (that's right, not personkind!!)from the shackles of a "legalistic" Hebrew faith only to have mohammad come along a few hundred years later and return the work to the rigid dictates of islam? "

Yet another gullible dolt who never read the Quran, but accepts the word of bigots without question.


jerubaal rejects Pope's view
jerubaal writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 6:23 PM
Khokar
"You do greatly err. Jesus IS God. How do you think He feels about you insulting Him as equal to or lesser than that camel-juice drinking fly-eating kiddie raping acid tripping murderer Mohammed? "

jerubel on Hitler
jerubaal writes: Monday, September, 18, 2006 7:42 PM
Fernando
"If God does exist, then the millions killed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao died because it was His will."

jerubel:
"That's correct. But those aren't killings done in His name. Sins of all sorts happen according to the will of God, but never in His name."

Wrong. Hitler was Catholic and repeatedly claimed that exterminating Jews was doing God's work.

And, of course, all Christian anti-semites also claim to be acting in God's name.





MountainRose
Mountain Rose writes: Tuesday, September, 19, 2006 3:20 AM

"Anti-Partisan_Rightly speaks wrongly.
"Hitler was a Buddahist and a New-Ager AND a Vegetarian."

But not as naive as you seem to be.

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work. [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]"

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933]"

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]"

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]"

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]"

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]"

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]"

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]"

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]"

Do you really believe Vegetarian is a religion?


once again
Movewater, my point should be clear enough, but let me make it simple. If you were to address a group of children and used big words, your audience (the children) would not understand and the message would be lost. Many in Islam have a proven record reacting childishly to say the least. I never said I disagreed with the Pope’s statement. I disagree with how it was said. As the Pope is a scholar and very intelligent, (I never said otherwise) he should have known his words would provoke such a reaction. Furthermore, as he speaks for all Catholics and the church as a whole, he should always choose his words carefully. That he didn’t is in fact, regrettable.

As to the issue of bias, visitor to this site will quickly realize that “liberal = evil and Democrat = wrong”. As this axiom is constantly used and never challenged one can assume that such illogical leanings, or bias is highly respected or a virtue.

Your next point which questions my relationship with the church is truly interesting. In essence, you love this country so you must have agreed and/or supported everything Bill Clinton did during his presidency.

Next comes the difference between ecclesiastic purity and fundamentalism. While subtle, the distinction is very important and it would take many words to explain. Suffice it to say that the last heresy was based upon fundamentalist interpretation of the faith.

As to the rest, John Paul wasn’t exactly dancing the nights away. You will say I believe something because I choose to; but you are doing the same. I’m sure that John Paul was aware of Ratzinger’s beliefs and actions, but was not able to deflect them very much. The church moves of Her own inertia as well as by the actions of Her pope.

I am far from capricious. The struggle that started with Vatican II has now come full circle. To you I’ll say: I like having a dogcatcher in my town but I don’t like that he runs over the dogs with his truck. Yes, I can always use improvement on my virtues.

Hockeygoon: I said it was of Ratzinger’s own sources, but you’re right, I should have been specific especially considering what a great job you do policing the correctness of literary style on this sight. Since you didn’t answer my last question, try this one. Who wrote those lines for the Ratzinger Fan Club?

Truetolife: As a Catholic, I accept that the Holy Spirit moves in the Church beyond what I may see in the present. Your are right; I must watch and see.

Moral Equivalence of reason and coercion
Interesting little thread you’ve got going here. I am especially delighted to see a Muslim apologist participating, whatever his motivation.

Some points to ponder:

- Christianity isn’t Islam. Adherents to Islam become more prone to violence and coercive population control the deeper they dig into their religion for meaning in practical life. Spreading the word involves the phrase, ‘join us or die.’ Adherents to Christianity (should) become more prone to humility, service, and generosity the deeper they go. The spread of deep Christianity is accomplished through gentle persuasion and reason, not coercion or even societal pressure.

- The crusades were conducted in response to aggressive and expansionist tactics by middle-easterners, who were guided by their religion.

- "Fundamentalist" Christian denominations rarely fundamentally agree on much. The notion that these widely-varied and insular groups will someday unite, gain political power, and persecute non-believers is ludicrous. Very few fundamentalist sects believe in encouraging members to create a presence in American politics. The ones that do, however, get to be on TV.

- Hitler was not a Christian. He officially discouraged religion of any sort, as it distracted from a citizen's duties and loyalties to the Vaderland. His use of one verse, taken out of context, to placate certain sensibilities is not proof of religious adherence.

- Historically, Christianity has quite effectively policed itself. And by Christianity, I don't mean Catholicism. Splinter groups that begin to implement practices anathema to the core beliefs tend to fade away with time. If you stumble across somebody preaching, along with Christ, justification for murder, racism, aggressive use of force, indifference to suffering, or even a lack of kindness, you haven’t found true Christianity. But, you have found something sensational to tradition-busters, so it merits airtime. True Christianity distances itself from abortion clinic attackers, politically-persuasive preachers such as Robertson, and anything else that falls outside the tenets of loving and serving God, and being humble, kind, generous, and gracious. I have heard Christian leaders renounce and distance themselves from well-known television “Christians.” These types of statements don’t seem to get much play. Instead, we are treated to an endless loop of the original offensive or loony remark, followed by the hollow-sounding call for apologies and retractions, usually issued or instigated by the same news organ. There won’t be another Inquisition. There won’t be a resurgence of lynchings. Abortion clinic attacks are on the decline (both kinds, actually). The Reformation started Christianity’s departure from its common usage as a tool of government, and Christianity has never ceased reforming itself. How many sub-denominations are there these days, anyway? Islam appears to be more monolithic in its view toward the things everybody finds objectionable these days: the violence and duplicity. Jihadist attacks happening right now aren’t much different in their moral underpinnings than those that occurred in the 1800s, or the 1600s, or the 1300s, etc. I have not been exposed to prominent Muslim leaders publicly renouncing or distancing themselves and/or their sub-sects from violent acts or practices. If they’re doing it, why don’t we hear about it? If some big-wig scholar announced the commencement of a well-studied reform movement in Islam, wouldn’t we hear about that?

- I have a difficult time believing that those of you who summarily categorize "Christians" as all in agreement with whatever worst behavioral examples you can cite, actually know very many practicing Christians. One or two anecdotal experiences with "religion" in America is enough to tarnish all of Christianity, but a non-stop and consistent 1400-year violent struggle is not enough to de-frock Islam of the title "religion of peace?" Give me a break!

- Another hallmark difference is judgment. Christians are taught to not judge people. Christians are, however, allowed to evaluate outcomes. This is easily misconstrued, as most people consider the word judgment to have a negative connotation. However, the underlying principle is simple, even if rarely ascertained: Man cannot know or determine the condition, nor decide the eternal destiny, of another’s soul. But man can gauge the depth of commitment, sincerity, and maturity of another’s faith by observing their works, and the results they achieve. Christianity is a religion of reason and precept, as well as of spirituality, and adherents enjoy the freedom of critical thought, evaluation, and self-determination when they perceive something amiss with their neighbor or their leadership. It is pathetic that when a Christian leader issues a statement that only God may judge souls, everybody yawns. But if he confidently announces an intimate insight into the soul of another, specifically, that they’re going to eternal punishment, or that God is angry with them, beware the stampede of cameras and microphones. This guy, though wrong, is exciting!

- The words and deeds of others, according to the bible, are what we are to use to evaluate other people. We aren’t allowed to evaluate the condition of their soul, but we could certainly evaluate their mental or spiritual stability, or their trustworthiness, or their work ethic, or their needs, or the content of their character.

It's Good to See the Catholic Church...
Such a firm opponent of the war on Iraq and the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, being praised here!

Is the West listening?
Just thought that I would mention that the following quote is a critique of the west and not of islam.

"The West has long been endangered by this aversion to the questions which underlie its rationality, and can only suffer great harm thereby. The courage to engage the whole breadth of reason, and not the denial of its grandeur -- this is the program with which a theology grounded in biblical faith enters into the debates of our time."


The adversion he refers to is a Western secular adversion to the questions of being and meaning that the materialism of our "rational/scientific limitations" impose on conversations in the public square.

Note particularly his claim that "A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures."

His final invitation is addressed to the non- Catholic cultures of both islam and the secular west.

Mr Ed
Mr. Ed writes: Tuesday, September, 19, 2006 4:30 PM

"Fundamentalist" Christian denominations rarely fundamentally agree on much. The notion that these widely-varied and insular groups will someday unite, gain political power, and persecute non-believers is ludicrous. Very few fundamentalist sects believe in encouraging members to create a presence in American politics. The ones that do, however, get to be on TV."

Hmm, and after I THOUGHT I'd seen the quote of the month. :-)

"Hitler was not a Christian. He officially discouraged religion of any sort, as it distracted from a citizen's duties and loyalties to the Vaderland. His use of one verse, taken out of context, to placate certain sensibilities is not proof of religious adherence."

True, if it were only one verse -- but I posted no fewer than NINE of them. There are more, but I figured I'd made my point.

Of those nine, which one was out of context, what was the context, and how would context change the apparently clear meaning of his words?




movwater
movwater writes: Tuesday, September, 19, 2006 11:08 PM
Re: Unreasonable People Will Not Keep th

Quoting me
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

movwater
"Interestingly, Colonel Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, the man who planted the bomb that narrowly missed assassinating Adolf Hitler was a devout Catholic, as were many of those involved in the attempted coup against Hitler and the Nazis."

You really do specialize in irrelevance. Why would that be interesting?

If one Christian murders another Christian, would you proclaim that proved the dead one was NOT a Christian?

And have you ever noticed that I actually ANSWER your posts, while you owe me over a dozens answers on this page alone?

movwater
"As for Hitler's standing in the Catholic Church perhaps these comments by prominent German Jew who escape the Nazis for American may help your understanding:"

So .... you seek the opinion of an non-practicing Jew, about a Catholic, instead of the Pope?

One more time: Hitler was never excommunicated.

Sorry.

BTW, you have about two dozen questions that you've ducked, on this page alone.

Like I said: Be a man. Stick up for your views. You might enjoy the change.


movwater
"Obviously, your "fellow travellers" don't see the Great Pope John Paul II to have been a major factor of Church "liberalism", a you suggest. Especially, his successful effort the contain the imminent "train wreck" that the left's highjacking of Vatican II was becoming."

Just curious, don't mean to offend ....

1) Are there any conspiracies you DON'T believe?

2) Ever been to Roslyn?

Mr Ed
"Jihadist attacks happening right now aren’t much different in their moral underpinnings than those that occurred in the 1800s, or the 1600s, or the 1300s, etc."

Indeed .. including by Christians. Islam seems to be stuck where Christianity was at that time. the Inquisition was still alive -- dying out but alive -- at our own founding. Not THAT long ago, historically.

Because, as you may have suggested, Islam has yet to experience a Reformation ... or may have, but it's yet too soon to know for sure.

Reform-minded Muslims have an option which was not available to Luther ... they can (and do) simply move to the West ... possibly leaving nobody behind for the now-more-difficult task of reformation.

It doesn't help that we were a prime player in stealing their land for Israel.

Our own hands aren't that clean either. 9/11 happened mostly because of our military support for Israel, just as World War II was caused by our Military support for China in its war with Japan.


Distinctive Christianity
“Why on Earth would you separate Catholicism from Christianity?”

A plethora of Catholic doctrines and practices are contrary to both plain text and contextual Bible scriptures. However, the top-down hierarchal structure of the Catholic church discourages individuals from gaining a personal relationship and understanding with God and His Word. By and large, the people go along with it, and accept “on faith” that they aren’t meant to understand the contradictions that provide cognitive dissonance.

In addition, the Catholic Church in recent decades has provided an incessant drip of scandals that briefly flicker into the light of public consciousness, only to fade away into whispers of large settlements - out of court. I don’t consider a cover-up of this magnitude to be indicative of any interest in candid, forthright contemplation and resolution of the root cause of the problem. Hence, I find them to be not-quite-as-self-policing as those denominations that require only a ten-minute meeting to decide to throw the bounders out.

“Let me see, King Henry VIII starts the Reformation in England, 1535”

Let me see, I say “Reformation,” and you begin and end with the Church of England. Very broad-minded of you. ?! The Church of England, the Episcopalian church, and to some extent the Eastern Orthodox Church are structurally and operationally very similar to the Catholic Church – they have simply broken their ties with Rome.

Plenty of Protestant movements have since come along that promote a relationship, personal depth of study, and a life-changing faith, rather than a “religion.” It is these entrance of these various Protestant, Evangelical denominations into the conversation about the substance, nature, and future of Christianity that has introduced what little introspection and restraint the Catholic Church now exhibits. A little competition is good for every endeavor, no?


"’Hitler was not a Christian. He officially discouraged religion of any sort, as it distracted from a citizen's duties and loyalties to the Vaderland. His use of one verse, taken out of context, to placate certain sensibilities is not proof of religious adherence.’"

“True, if it were only one verse -- but I posted no fewer than NINE of them. There are more, but I figured I'd made my point.

Of those nine, which one was out of context, what was the context, and how would context change the apparently clear meaning of his words?“

It is still true that Hitler was not a Christian whether he used nine or nine hundred, in or out of context. I discern the distinction between Catholics and Christians. One hopes that Hitler wasn’t considered a “good Catholic,” but he certainly didn’t pass muster as a good Christian. He found a few scriptures to support his innate concepts, and therefore his policies. A Christian develops concepts and policies in light of the scriptures, not in spite of them. Hitler allowed himself to be ruled by his baser instincts. A Christian strives to subject these baser instincts to scripture and spirit. Some even succeed.

“Reform-minded Muslims have an option which was not available to Luther ... they can (and do) simply move to the West ... possibly leaving nobody behind for the now-more-difficult task of reformation.”

This is a good point.

“Our own hands aren't that clean either. 9/11 happened mostly because of our military support for Israel, just as World War II was caused by our Military support for China in its war with Japan.”

This is pure B.S.

Even given that our foreign policies rarely represent the USA in the way that we think of ourselves, your cause-and-effect “analyses” are shocking.

Where does Iran’s declaration of war on America in 1979 fit into your reasoning? How about Muslim disdain of secularism, other religions, and the liberation of women, sexuality, and social mores? Is there any room in there for a culture-wide inferiority complex driven by a prohibition against questioning Islam that results in blaming everybody else? How about the notion that the average Arab Muslim’s acquaintance with authority isn’t very different to that same relationship experienced by to Arabs of 400 years ago under the oppression of the Ottoman empire?

And WORLD WAR II ? ? ? ? Don’t get me started. Everybody knows that was started when the Archbishop Ferdinand of Canterbury assassinated the Duke of Earl with a 55-gallon drum of mucus fired from a trebuchet. Space Aliens made him do it. It was the snot hurled ‘round the world. Yikes.

Movewater
No movewater, perhaps your passion over this issue you are misunderstanding what I’ve written. I always want people to speak the truth and go give sincere opinions. I have never agreed with the least common denominator as an affective choice. Consider my opening statement. Should I have written that ‘You are either a semiliterate moron or so full of your own sense of righteousness that you make ridiculous comments and stamp all over any intelligent response that shows how idiotic you’re thinking is?’ That would be wrong of me and furthermore, it would not be a true representation of how I feel. The same could be said of the pop’s statement. That’s why it is regrettable.

You can certainly disagree with my terminology regarding liberals which was overly simple; but you cannot deny the attitude my comment represents. It is repeated daily in virtually ever commentary and response. I have never seen you speak against such attitude which is my point.

You really missed the next point. Of course you never said that. That’s the whole point. You questioned that I claimed close study and tight relation with the church but maintained a bias against Her leader. I demonstrated how that is not only possible but quite understandable. I believe you truly love this country. Further, I’m certain you’ve made a thorough study of history and stay on top of current events. Yet, you have distinctly negative feelings about Bill Clinton and have nursed a bias ever since. It’s when you fail to grasp such a simple analogy that I question whether something is clouding your judgment.

This next point leaves me at a loss as to how I can put this delicately; but you have either the inability or are unwilling to understand what is a difficult theological concept. Your definition of fundamentalism for example, is incomplete. And yes, Feeneyism was condemned as heresy and Father Feeney was excommunicated because of his fundamental interpretation of faith. To see you call incredibly stupid then call me clueless is to combine blind ignorance with the temperament of a petulant child.
I fear you may never come to understand some of the deeper currents that run through the Catholic Church. I have read all the Encyclicals of John Paul and compiled them to gain a clearer picture of the true nature of the man. I ask you, what senses you lack that you cannot see another world all around us? Based on your previous statements I can’t trust your interpretations of any thing you don’t agree with or think you know already.

Your last comment was a good example of this. To use the writings of Barry Healy as proof of John Paul’s fundamentalism is ridiculous. Barry Healy is an extreme liberal who believes that the media is controlled by conservative who are using it as part of a vast rightwing conspiracy to take complete control of this country. Of course, if you are in agreement with Healy then I can understand why you would think his comments were valid. Somehow, no matter what you consider yourself, I don’t see you as part of the folks at countercurrents.org.

I find a good rule of thumb is: the number of insults a commenter uses is indicative of how poorly constructed their thoughts are.



THE POPE AND THE INFIDELS
To ANTIPARTISAN

Yet another gullible dolt who never read the Quran, but accepts the word of bigots without question.

Well, I do enyoy discourse with the illiterati. If you wish I can quote the koran verse for verse having read it more than once. I can also quarantee that I have seen the work of these godless bastards up front and for real! Having been deployed to the middle-east, including Iran in the last year, I speak with a measure of real-life experience. See your local recruiter, if you have the balls, and learn for yourself.

THE POPE AND THE INFIDELS
Yet another gullible dolt who never read the Quran, but accepts the word of bigots without question.

Well, I do enyoy discourse with the illiterati. If you wish I can quote the koran verse for verse having read it more than once. I can also quarantee that I have seen the work of these godless bastards up front and for real! Having been deployed to the middle-east, including Iraq (not Iran,yet, sorry for the Freudian slip in my original post) in the last year. I speak with a measure of real-life experience. See your local recruiter, if you have the balls, and learn for yourself.

Mr Ed

Mr Ed says (and later retracts):
"Hitler was not a Christian. He officially discouraged religion of any sort, as it distracted from a citizen's duties and loyalties to the Vaderland. His use of one verse, taken out of context, to placate certain sensibilities is not proof of religious adherence.’"

Me:
“True, if it were only one verse -- but I posted no fewer than NINE of them. There are more, but I figured I'd made my point."

"Of those nine, which one was out of context, what was the context, and how would context change the apparently clear meaning of his words?“

MrEd
"It is still true that Hitler was not a Christian whether he used nine or nine hundred, in or out of context."

It was your statement. Apparently, you cannot defend it. So noted.

"I discern the distinction between Catholics and Christians. One hopes that Hitler wasn’t considered a “good Catholic,”

Like I said, he was never excommunicated, despite his many claims to being catholic, and that he was doing God's work by exterminating the Jews.

" but he certainly didn’t pass muster as a good Christian."

Hmmm, that a very old excuse by Christians, for dismissing ... Christians.

" He found a few scriptures to support his innate concepts, and therefore his policies. A Christian develops concepts and policies in light of the scriptures, not in spite of them. "

You're kidding, right? Most Christians have no clue what's in the Scriptures.

"Hitler allowed himself to be ruled by his baser instincts. A Christian strives to subject these baser instincts to scripture and spirit. Some even succeed."

Well, I've know maybe 300 Christians during my life (I'm 64) who were all ruled more by their baser instincts, instead of any perceived striving.

----
MrEd
“Our own hands aren't that clean either. 9/11 happened mostly because of our military support for Israel, just as World War II was caused by our Military support for China in its war with Japan.”

"This is pure B.S."

I'm impressed with the power of your argument.

"Even given that our foreign policies rarely represent the USA in the way that we think of ourselves, your cause-and-effect “analyses” are shocking."

I freely admit they are shocking. Considering our clandestine (and illegal) military support for China at the time -- do you have a better explanation for why Japan would travel so far away from an existing war, to attack our fleet??

"Where does Iran’s declaration of war on America in 1979 fit into your reasoning?"

I already explained that -- Israel.

"How about Muslim disdain of secularism, other religions, and the liberation of women, sexuality, and social mores?"

How about the UN partitioning of lands with a majority population of Arab Muslims, to create a state of Israel on stolen lands, where the majority Muslims were then denied the right to vote -- and now WE have the gall to lecture THEM about democracy?

Seems a bit more important than whether their women (who have the eight to vote and own property) have to wear burkas -- which has no perceivable connection to 9/11.

"Is there any room in there for a culture-wide inferiority complex driven by a prohibition against questioning Islam that results in blaming everybody else?"

You seem ignorant of the history of Israel.

Consider this. How would we react if the UN "partitioned" the entire American Southwest, and returned that part of Mexico's homeland to Mexico?

After all, Mexico has a far more legitimate claim to the Southwest than Israel EVER had to their current borders.

"How about the notion that the average Arab Muslim’s acquaintance with authority isn’t very different to that same relationship experienced by to Arabs of 400 years ago under the oppression of the Ottoman empire?"

So, you believe that justifies all the constant attacks by the West? The seizing of their lands? Looks more like whining. And I suspect the families of all those 9/11 victims might not be very impressed.

How about the notion that the Jews first obtained that land by committing genocide (Canaanites/Phoenicians), then fumbled it away with a civil war after only 200 years (because Solomin had enslaved his own people), and lost the land by conquest (southern Jews refused to help northen Jews defend themselves) a mere 200 years later, caused by Solomon having sold his own people into slavery??

"And WORLD WAR II ? ? ? ? Don’t get me started. Everybody knows that was started when the Archbishop Ferdinand of Canterbury assassinated the Duke of Earl with a 55-gallon drum of mucus fired from a trebuchet. Space Aliens made him do it. It was the snot hurled ‘round the world. Yikes."

Funny! But I'm still curious which of Hitler's statements was out of context, what was the context, and how does context change the original perceptions?





Movwater
movwater writes: Thursday, September, 21, 2006 12:40 AM

movwater:
"As for Hitler's standing in the Catholic Church perhaps these comments by prominent German Jew who escape the Nazis for American may help your understanding:"

me:
"So .... you seek the opinion of an non-practicing Jew, about a Catholic, instead of the Pope?"

movwater:
Why not? I am not prejudice, are you?


It's not about prejudice, it's about common sense. Would you ask a non-practicing Muslim to comment on how good a Jew Michael Medved is?


"Einstein was not a practicing Jew, like you, he fancied himself a atheist."

That's what I said four paragrpahs back -- that he was a non-practicing Jew.
----

Me:
"BTW, you have about two dozen questions that you've ducked, on this page alone."

movwater:
And I'll be glad to answer them if you would kind enough to provide the Biblical Book, Chapter and Verse where it instructs that God commanded Christians "to immediately stone to death followers of other prophet". What fair is fair! Give so you shall receive! Or simply admit you are full of sh*t!

How many times must I post it????? Simply go to the correct page and look. It's there twice.



Movewater
Ok movewate, you are right, 100% right from top to bottom. Your position is truly irrefutable. I mean that. No matter what words are employed, they will twist and warp in your reading. Any sentences seem to scramble and reassemble for form alternate meanings. For example, you bring in 9/11 to augment your argument in a completely unrelated way, yet it obvious was a major point for you. How can any one refute such thinking? You claim to champion against all bias, yet my daily reading hasn’t revealed a single time you’ve done it to any but those with whom you disagree. You call my bias ugly but I have never resorted to the language or coarseness that is found in so many comments that it’s considered common practice. Not one bit of it adds up. Much of it doesn’t even make sense. I’ve responded with respect because I take you for a serious person and now I wonder if you are only trying to egg me on.

Cardinal Ratzinger did not run a clandestine conspiracy. All he did was simply church politics. Church politics as with our politics often contain opposing parties who disagree over what’s best. This does not make them evil. I reserve the right to maintain and express my opinion over church politics as well as our nation’s. Dissention in the church is nothing new. Furthermore, history has shown several occasions when both the Pope (pop, I love how you kindly point out my typos) and the church as a whole has been in error. For the rest, I am at a loss. It seems you can’t even accept a compliment gracefully. It is a tenant of the Catholic faith to believe that the Holy Spirit moves us and reveals the revelation. I’m not in a position to claim that all my thoughts regarding religious truth are through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I can say though, while Webster’s is my favorite source, I can’t help but notice that there are several different editions all of varying thickness. Sometimes that’s because one edition contains more words that another; and sometimes that’s because some have more complete definitions than another. Ergo, some of Webster’s definitions are incomplete.

I maintain my original position. The Pope’s comments were regrettable. I regret that suffering has resulted from them. I regret that they have been misunderstood. I regret that reprehensible people have used them as an excuse for further violence. I find it especially regrettable that the comments were unnecessary and could have been voice differently.

No stones thrown, just ideas
I specifically object to the doctrine of ex cathedra, and therefore, I suppose, also to the doctrine of infallibility of the pope. The concept of adding new man-made doctrines is antithetical to the express teachings of the bible. I disagree with evolving the religion. The writings of Eusebius have convinced me that the concept of the trinity itself is a man-made construct, developed at or around the time of the council of Nicea, to help the fledgling religion be more attractive to the polytheistic Greeks and Romans of the day.

Galatians 1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Revelation, chapter 22, verse 18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I take exception to the notion of accepting oral tradition in the formation of doctrine, and the notion of the paternal priesthood: Christ is to be our intercessor, not some man in a robe, elevated my man to be priest. A man serving as an intermediary between parishioners and their God is not biblically supported. People should read and understand the bible for themselves, rather than taking the word of somebody else. Yes, today, here, perhaps you are encouraged to dig in for yourselves. But for most of the Catholic church’s history, illiterate parishioners were at the mercy of the interpretations and integrity of their priests.

I take exception to the notion that some practical aspects of Christianity aren’t divinely intended for our present understanding. Although some aspects of this religion are explicitly mysterious, such as prophecy and the afterlife, the plan for living an overcoming Christian life, and the plan for salvation, are plain. I wouldn’t accept the daily workings of my religion to be a great mystery to be accepted on faith, in other words. The Church Fathers believed what Paul said in Eph 3:3-5, that the scripture could be understood by merely reading it. They indicated that the scriptures themselves were clear, so clear, they even criticized the heretics for getting it wrong. If those outside the church and common pew dwellers are unable to understand the Bible themselves as the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches teach, then why did the apostolic fathers expect the heretics to understand the Bible with their own human skills?

There are a handful of other issues listed at http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm

I suppose that, in order to be more explicit, and technically accurate, I should have said that I discern the distinction between bible teachings and Catholicism.

The contradictions of which I speak are those between the plain text of the bible and the hocus-pocus traditions, mysteries, and rituals.

Make no mistake, this pope isn’t inviting the world to take a closer look at the bible veracity of Catholic doctrines. He’s encouraging the faithless and the fallen away to re-engage in the same-old same-old. He wants to start a dialogue with Muslims, but in the interests of world peace, an Islamic Reformation, and an ecumenical understanding - not because he wants Muslims, or anybody else, for that matter, to dig in for themselves and become convinced, with finality, that the Church took a wrong turn a long time ago.


“Ah! But these scandals are not the Church, anymore than Evangelist Jim Bakker is evangelical Christianity. The Church, like all denominations, is in this World, and of this, and made up of men that have a sinful nature”

Right. However, the scandals of which I speak aren’t the molestations and rapes themselves, but the concerted efforts by cardinals and bishops to not remove the offenders from their positions of power. This effort might also be alleged as an attempt to maintain the illusion of the infallibility of the priesthood. If the priesthood is infallible, why do they need attorneys? Paul said that it is better to marry than to burn. Yet the Catholic church continues in its assertion that its ordained clergy have supernatural power to overcome their lusts, in spite of a vast body of evidence to the contrary.

“Of course, Jesus, the Christ, advises "Do not judge so that you will not be judged." Apparently along with your long list of rejected Churches, you also admonish Jesus, the Christ admonishment not to judge. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church follows strict rules of procedure under Canon Law, before they "throw the bounders out". I imagine you equal qualms about the Justice System in the US. Perhaps preferring a good strudy tree and strong rope and a little vigilante justice, to a jury of one peers, an attorney to represent you, and the ability to cross-examine the witnesses against you. Just how did Jesus, the Christ, handle the "bounders"?“

This is a nice twist. I haven’t judged anybody’s soul, nor admonished diety, per this citation. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Somebody who claims to be ordained to infallibility, but abuses power and influence, or uses their power and influence to protect those that abuse, provides observers with a fruit of knowledge about themselves. To wit, that they aren’t in the religion business for the right reasons. Forgive your trespassers. Yes. Pray for those that despitefully use you. Yes. Retain a man in a position of authority when he displays a pattern of abuse? No. The adulterous woman was not in a position of leadership, power, or influence. (well, maybe she influenced her customers) A better example might be Jesus’ scourging of the temple. I am grateful to see you compare my assertion that abusive leaders ought to be voted out of their jobs to moral support for lynching. It allows all of us to get to know you a little better.


“Obviously you are sinless, seeing how many stone you throw. “

I don’t see that I’ve thrown any. Perhaps you could help me correct my offensive error? More fruit.


“So the Episcopal Church and all the Eastern Orthodox Churches are not Christian, either. Maybe you should provide a list of those church that you consider as Chrisitian. It is probably a lot smaller that those you condemn.

"’Plenty of Protestant movements have since come along that promote a relationship, personal depth of study, and a life-changing faith, rather than a 'religion'.’"

Hmmm! You mean Martin Luther, who wish to take and axe to the New Testament to remove those texts that offended his "personal depth of study, and a life-changing faith" that rejected some of the principles found is James, for instance. Or do your reject the Lutherans also, from you list of Christian Churches acceptable to you?”

“"’ but he certainly didn’t pass muster as a good Christian.’"

Hmmm, that a very old excuse by Christians, for dismissing ... Christians.

"’ He found a few scriptures to support his innate concepts, and therefore his policies. A Christian develops concepts and policies in light of the scriptures, not in spite of them. ‘"

You're kidding, right? Most Christians have no clue what's in the Scriptures.

"’Hitler allowed himself to be ruled by his baser instincts. A Christian strives to subject these baser instincts to scripture and spirit. Some even succeed.’"

Well, I've know maybe 300 Christians during my life (I'm 64) who were all ruled more by their baser instincts, instead of any perceived striving.”

I don’t condemn anything, or anybody. This isn’t about me. Again, I should say there exists a difference between bible teachings and Catholicism, which is, as accurately pointed out, part of Christianity. I don’t condemn or reject, I observe and mention the differences. It is probably true that most people who profess Christianity have no clue what’s in the scriptures. It is also very sad, and a considerable source of the confusion and disappointment people express toward it. While your inferring my condemnation is not an accurate insight into the real me, your perception that I mentally have lumped Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopalian, and Lutheran into the same category was on target. I’m not sure that I realized that I did so myself. I certainly mean no offense. I encourage folks to dig in for themselves, and accept no answers originating in traditions or mysteries.

Gandhi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Christians dismissing other Christians, ruled by their baser instincts, never becoming serious about becoming Christ-like, are all valid cause to question what is great about the religion. Those baser instincts are terribly difficult to conquer. Very few, easily less than 1 in 300 professing the title, order their lives around the teachings of the bible to the extent that it is noticeable by others. Most that you observe are always seeking, but seldom obtaining, a complete submission. I am inadequate to the task of persuading you of the virtues of that which you’ve never seen. It is obvious that the prevailing practices of Christianity have a lot of holes in them. The bible teaching of it does not. However, even the bible confesses that man is incapable of keeping the law. What’s needed is a hunger for something deeper, something truer, something plainly understood, and a willingness to commit. Alas, I sound like Jeremiah.

But I suppose what I am saying, if I may be allowed to impart this as my coherent point, is that non-biblical doctrines of Catholic and other long-standing denominations distract their members from unearthing the biblical essentials of a Christian life, as the apostles themselves set forth in the early years.

Freedom of religion of necessity includes the freedom to practice a religion only in part. Sometimes this could be a matter of the progression of attainment, and other times simply stubborn hypocrisy. If I could find a church that taught its people to practice Christianity as the apostles did, surely I might find one or two people living a changed life? I would be more interested in finding a Jesus doctrine, or an apostolic doctrine, than a Lutheran or Catholic or Methodist, etc., doctrine. Does such a thing even exist? I would think that a denomination that cut out the tradition, focused on the bible, and had even a handful of people that practiced what was preached would attract the disillusioned from the mainline churches by the thousands. Bible-based Christianity is surely a hard teaching, but the compromised teaching and easy living that passes for Christianity today isn’t impressing anybody, as evidenced by this thread.

movwater
movwater writes: Tuesday, September, 19, 2006 8:00 PM

*AP-R
"True. But the Pope obviously rejects about 90% of the posts here, from the Islamophobes."

*movwater
"However, please note that the Swiss Guards have have quadrupled the security around the Pope. Someone in the Vatican must be not afraid of Islamists."

I think you meant the opposite of what you said. My point, of course, is that the Pope publicly rejects the type of Islamophobia expressed here by you and others.

Come to think of it, so does Dubya.

--------

**movwater:
"Seeing how you are a professed atheist, I am not sure whether or not you "have a dog in this fight." That is unless you consider yourself a "Secular Materialist"."

*me:
"I consider myself a taxpayer ... paying for a stoopid war."

*movwater
"And I suppose you blame America and the real culprit."

And I suppose you believe we were somehow forced into going there.

-------

*AR-P
"OF COURSE atheists have a dog in this fight. It's as much cultural as it is religious."

*movwater
"Well, if I am not mistaken, the Pope was talk about the "nature" of a real God."

Actually, he was talking about reason and persuasion, versus violence.

*movwater
"Considering that atheists believe, with the fervor of a saint, that there is no God (a faith that rivals that of the most ardent Trappist Monk or even a Islamo-fascist suicide bomber, IMMHO),

It has nothing to do with faith. So your opinion is rather useless. And your bigotry is again showing.

If you don't believe there's a yellow monkey dropping doo-doo on your head, then I suspect you believe that -- not on faith -- but because nobody can prove otherwise to you.

*movwater
"I cannot understand how Pope Benedict XVI concept, that God has a rational nature (unlike the irrational god of Islam) can possibly impact you in anyway, much less your culture. "

That's because you foolishly assumed I was talking about my culture (as an atheist).

And, you finally agree with me, that the Pope was talking about reason.

Here's your card.


For Crying Out Loud
Can you guys PLEASE use links instead of cluttering up this thread with your monstrous posts? It's really rude.

Go outside and fight.
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