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Thursday, October 11, 2007
Marco  Martinez :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Do Conservatives Love the Military?
by Marco Martinez
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



If a soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine in Iraq were to receive an anonymous care package or letter of support, who likely would have been its sender: a liberal or a conservative?

Chances are you said the latter. But why? Why are conservatives and Republicans seemingly more supportive of our troops than liberals?

It’s a good question.

I’m no political expert. In fact, I don’t even consider myself terribly “political.” But I do have five thoughts on why conservatives seem to lend far stronger and more vocal support to our military than liberals:

1. The military sees a clear line between good and evil.

The minute you start thinking that there’s no such thing as good and evil, right and wrong, it’s virtually impossible to support an organization like the military. The military applies lethal force in the service of what our nation deems “good” and “right.” If you believe that nothing is black and white, and that everything is morally gray, it’s hard to choose sides.

Some liberals sort of remind me of that lyric from that old song that goes: “There ain’t no good guys, there ain’t no bad guys. There’s only you and me and we just disagree.”

Marines don’t “disagree” with the enemy. We shoot to kill.

2. Veterans view themselves as servants, not victims.

I’ll go to my grave feeling nothing but gratitude in my heart for my beloved Corps and the U.S. military. My father earned his citizenship in our great country by serving for over 20 years as an Army Ranger. America has given me and my family more than we ever dreamed of.

I think the overwhelming majority of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines feel the same way: we consider defending our nation to be an honor, not a burden.

Except, of course, for Anthony Swofford, the guy who wrote that lame, whiny book Jarhead that got turned into a lame, whiny movie. Like all Marines, I can’t stand that book. (So much so, in fact, that I wrote my book as a counterbalance for those of us who truly love the Corps.)

3. The military stresses hard work, self-discipline, and personal responsibility.

Growing up, I was a member of one of the most violent street gangs in America. Back then I thought I knew what it was to “hustle” and to be “tough” and “hard.”

And then my beloved Corps got a hold of me.

I remember my Marine recruiter, Staff Sergeant Marquez, a six-foot-tall, dark-skinned Mexican-American Marine with a barrel chest, thin mustache, and bulging forearms. That guy ate punks like me for breakfast. And it was then, and only then, that I began to understand that all I had done up and to that point was crap and devoid of virtue.

Many liberals believe in hard work, too. But conservatives stress hard work and personal excellence as pathways to virtue (“Be all you can be,” as the Army would say). As any brother- or sister-in-arms will tell you, personal excellence gets stressed from day one of boot camp.

4. Service members understand that freedom is not free.

The Armed Forces do their part to cure us young folks of the historical amnesia that afflicts so many people of my generation (I’m 26). I can’t speak for other branches, but I’m sure they are similar.

As new recruits, we had Marine Corps history drilled into us daily. And so, later when we were out on some grueling field operation, for example, it was much harder to complain knowing the hell that our Marine grandfathers experienced at Tarawa, or the brutal fighting our Vietnam fathers endured.

What we understand is that if American history teaches us anything it is that freedom is a torch passed from one generation to the next.

Someone—the military—has to do the heavy lifting of history.

5. The military shoots guns. Lots of guns.

Okay, so I thought I’d lighten it up a bit. But I’m only half-joking. Conservatives support gun rights and the use of lethal force to protect innocent people. The military does, too. As I say, violence isn’t senseless. Senseless violence is senseless.

Admittedly, I’m not a political scientist at Harvard. I’m a former Marine. But that’s precisely my point: whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it.

Semper Fi.

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About The Author

Marco Martinez, a recipient of the Navy Cross, is author of the new book Hard Corps: From Gangster to Marine Hero (Crown Forum).

Good article
I just liked the article. It was plain and simple. I can see the Marine Corps is still doing a good job.I think they make better citizens out of people.
I must add that I'm a little partial.
Semper Fidelis, Semper Paratus

K
That's really nice--is there anything that you feel so strongly about that you don't really care what another side thinks--you know you are right?

The military lives like they do
so the rest of the country doesn't have to.
I saw a T-shirt at a military linguist school that said "We learn Farsi so you won't have to." Outstanding!

Tail End Charlie
Looks like I missed the fireworks! As a retired veteran, let me articulate the reasons that conservatives and the military are in such rapproachment. Actually, Mr. Martinez's five categories can be boiled down into three... and Douglas MacArthur stated them so well in his West Point address. Duty, Honor, Country. Add "God" (who is implicit in the formula) and you have the moral foundation of both groups.

These are also, by the way, the the virtues of civilization.

I do not necessarily hold non-service against a man. Men have found other ways to serve their country and God without enduring the "organized trauma" of Parris Island or (as with me) Fort Leonard Wood MO. Nor is military service an absolute guarantor of virtue in later life. On some, those values have never taken root and never quite would, despite a lifetime of service. In others, it became well-engrained, often in childhood, and those persons went on to noble enterprises, with or without military background.

Still, as in Mr. Martinez's case, it's one of the greatest ways ever found to instill those greatest of all values when civilian life has failed to do so... as it so often does these days. It did that for me, as well.

‘A nightmare with no end in sight’

With no leadership in Iraq how can we ever get out?

USATODAY- A “failure of the national political leadership” is responsible for the “nightmare” of the Iraq war, retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez said Friday.

If some of America’s political leaders were in the military they would have been relieved or court-martialed long ago, Sanchez told a conference of military journalists.

“Neglect and incompetence” by the National Security Council has led to an intractable situation in Iraq, the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq said.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/%e2%80%98a-nightma re-with-no-end-in-sight%e2%80%99

Gestell
in the past, you have used the same line as the rest that conservatives love the troops because they let them do for them what they won't or other lines to that effect. You hyave never spent one single day in combat and you want to tell me and others who have how to run a war, as a matter of fact I doubt you have spent one day in service as in the guard, reserve, army, navy, marines, airforce or any other military organization. Like I said, BS walking on two legs.

To no bs artist
"Yup conservatives talk the talk, but they won't walk the walk. They'll just stay at home where it's safe!!!"

Lil' feller, have I ever seen you in Iraq or Afghanistan?
No?
Well, I'm trying to remember to be civil and Christian, so let me just say...
I walk the walk, boy. You talk the talk.

Conservatives and the Military
CFUSMC

Yes, I served in the USMC so if the Constitution is ever amended to require one to serve in order to enjoy the franchise you and I can hit the polls together. I am that poster to whom you refer and I still hold the belief that all the red, white and blue bleeding "patriots" need to do what you apparently did, sacrifice a portion of their life in the service of their country.
I did object to the military operations in Bosnia (and Somalia for that matter). You are wrong to assume I supported Clinton.

Best Regards,

William

Bman3 writes:
Lumberjack7392
He knows he is full of Bravo Sierra.
The stupid sh!t doesn't even know what Bravo Sierra means.


Has anyone found him on military.com yet?
Didn't think so.

He probably has never even been in the state of SC before.

You notice he sahut up about the KKK, when I called him on it. Courtney found out that sometimes blowing smoke can get you burned.

When I was at the SC Criminal justice Academy (it was on Broad River Rd in Cola at the time) city cops, and deputies used to rag on the Mud Marshalls or Rabbit Sheriffs or Fish Fuzz, or 'coon Constables, or Possum Police as we called them all the time. We did envy the fact that they got to carry stainless steel .357s while we carried .38s.

reply to eastlake joe


so just exactly what is your cliche supposed to mean about my post? People who do the "talk/walk" sound really cool and tough, but I'll bet you can't come up with even one authentic piece of B.S. in my post. You just had to do your fourth-grade recess dump on a liberal, right?

.

HDb pt 2
When are you going to answer the one about what would you do that you haven't already done? You've only been evading that one for about 31/2 weeks. Have trouble sleeping? You should when you and others like you have degraded and lied about troops like you have.



Hal: I'm on the list of the libber/liars of the year. I'm the "head man".

Hal D.bag
8:16 "you evade the question" Thats good coming from you. When are you going to answer the question about the list? You've only been evading that one for about 3 weeks!

Sheepdog
Thats OK I just like pulling lib chain as its SO easy. Hal massengil D.bag is so full of you know what his eyes are probably a very dark shade of brown. His buisiness card probably says
Hal D.bag professional BSer and Phony person.

Bman3
you probably caught my post about when you and I were talking about the KKK when Hal jumped in about his claim. I think we started something.

eastlake Joe lumberjack
I think I know how all this business about the KKK in SC got started. It was on Walter Williams thread. Anyway Bman3 said something about the Democrats (I can't remember how the exchange went) and my response was
Democrats are stuck in the 60's they still think Jim Crow laws exist and the KKK is alive and well. BMan3 came back and said He'd lived in SC all his live and didn't know anyone who was with the KKK. That's when Hal dropped in and said Yea I lived in SC for two years and they were everywhere (or something to that affect)
And I thought WTF? Here's someone who's lived there his whole life and never met anyone from the KKK and he (Hal) claims they were all over ..even claiming they were carrying cards that Identified them as KKK...What a bunch of BS.

Lumberjack7392
He knows he is full of Bravo Sierra.
The stupid sh!t doesn't even know what Bravo Sierra means.


Has anyone found him on military.com yet?
Didn't think so.

He probably has never even been in the state of SC before.

Lumberjack:
You asked the other night about my stepfather and when he was a law enforcement officer. I don't know if you saw the reply but he was the first undercover officer for the DNR in the state.
Worked under Pat Ryan if that name is familiar to you.

He had the first conviction for the lacey act in the state and the first to convict for possession of a piranna(sp?) in the state.

Worked with the dept from 1963 to 1990 when he had no choice but to retire due to age.

He also had the first conviction in the state for another fed act but can't remember which one. I am getting ready to call him and will ask.

He was awarded many things such as officer of the year from the exchange club of Chas, officer of the year from the dept a few times. And other stuff

He used to come home with red hair one day and gray the next. It was kind of funny actually.

Also had a couple of different fed commissions and worked mostly with the feds in ICC and US Fish & Wildlife.

Which is more than Hal can say. His only achievement in life was getting a job posting for the huff n puff website.

Katy the mean old lady on Ann's column had a funny post about his comrade Robert...


Hal:
Before my lobotomy, my IQ was an even steven 37

Reply to Tedmug
Tedmug writes:

Conservatism and libertarianism are synonymous in my view. Personal liberty was a core value of our Revolution. The Bill of Rights was incorporated into the Constitution to preserve, not bestow, personal liberties. My conservatism embraces all this. Doesn't yours?

Tedmug,

I think that you may offend some conservatives on Townhall with your first statement. Libertarians are viewed with skepticism by several branches of the conservative movement. I'm happy that your personal version of conservatism embraces libertarian (Classical Liberal, not Modern Socialist) ideas.

Hal D.bag
Yea you have a real crappy nite too. Do your significant other a favor and put the bag over your face, I'll bet he or she is ashamed to see you ALL the time and is only being charitable!

wiseone (aka fecal matter)
"You mean the same McCain that bashed the religious right in order to get the Democrat crossover vote?"

No I suspect he means the push poll that said he fat5hered a black child out of wedlock and then showed a pic of his adopted daughter

"The "Swifties" told the TRUTH about Kerry. If the truth "slimed" him that's Kerry's fault."

Actually they did not and gave birth to a "new phrase" for lieing

"Cleland got slimed in Georgia."

"Again, someone took the trouble to tell the truth; that Cleland's wounds were not received in combat. Why do you keep insisting that the truth "slimes" Democrats? "

Ahh true but he did win a Bronze and silver star in combat prior why is that forgotten?

"Four stars such as Clark and Shinseki who predicted the Iraq debacle are ignored."

So now being "ignored" is the same as being "attack[ed]"

LMAO keep it up I am copying every line I love you silly fool or evil, nasty turncoat

"But General Petreaus who pretty much came out for Bush is 2004 is treated like the reincarnation of McArthur."

"Petraeus succeeded in battle where other commanders didn't. In war this will earn you high praise."

LMAO thank you I needed that LMAO

"And how about the eight soldiers who wrote the op-ed piece in the N.Y. Times giving a much different view of the war than Petraeus."

And you have NO EXAMPLES of these heroes being "slimed" by Rove, Coulter, Malkin, or Limbaugh, do you?

"Also Pat Tillman who was opposed to the Iraq war but served honorably in Afghanistand. He too should be honored."

Conservatives have honored Tillman. Or maybe you have quotes of the big four "sliming" Tillman too.

Actually the White House claiming "executive privelege" to keep records from the family is "slime" enough. "Wiseone you sick yet? I hope so


Lumberjack
Most of my relatives are from Cedartown Ga. And in my 57 years of life I only heard them talk about the KKK one time and that was about a man who was hung on the town square back in like the 30s or 40s. Thats only if I remember right as I was probably 10 or 11 Yrs old. I've heard about them up here in Ohio more as once I got a paper inviting people to join and they held a rally in the square in Painesville Ohio a few years back. I question the authenticity of them as they were so open about what they were doing.

Try to get the facts right
Bobzmcishl:

"McCain got slimed in South Carolina..."

You mean the same McCain that bashed the religious right in order to get the Democrat crossover vote?

"Kerry got slimed in 2004..."

The "Swifties" told the TRUTH about Kerry. If the truth "slimed" him that's Kerry's fault.

"Cleland got slimed in Georgia."

Again, someone took the trouble to tell the truth; that Cleland's wounds were not received in combat. Why do you keep insisting that the truth "slimes" Democrats?

"Four stars such as Clark and Shinseki who predicted the Iraq debacle are ignored."

So now being "ignored" is the same as being "attack[ed]"

"But General Petreaus who pretty much came out for Bush is 2004 is treated like the reincarnation of McArthur."

Petraeus succeeded in battle where other commanders didn't. In war this will earn you high praise.

"And how about the eight soldiers who wrote the op-ed piece in the N.Y. Times giving a much different view of the war than Petraeus."

And you have NO EXAMPLES of these heroes being "slimed" by Rove, Coulter, Malkin, or Limbaugh, do you?

"Also Pat Tillman who was opposed to the Iraq war but served honorably in Afghanistand. He too should be honored."

Conservatives have honored Tillman. Or maybe you have quotes of the big four "sliming" Tillman too.

"... the Bush driven... war in Iraq that has cost... hundred's of thousand's of Iraqi lives."

You have a source for this? Even "Baghdad" Jim McDermott could find a source for only 71,000 lives, compared to estimates that range from 300,000 to almost a million killed by Saddam. And how many died in Rwanda while Clinton and Wesley "Four Star" Clark stood by and watched? Try 500,000 or more.

Bobzmcishl / HAL D
PLEASE stop playing with yourself in public! Have you no shame?

Hal D, --I know you are just entertianing yourself here! Reading your posts ( other then the earlier ones b4 your meds ..or coffee maybe)
You seem too intelligent to REALLY believe all that you post. Can you at least bring yourself to thank Marco for his service...Even if you believe it is misguided, foolish, evil .. whatever. I am sure he would appreciate it... believe it or not he did it for YOU TOO!

Lumberjack7392/eastlake joe
Sissies, it is time to say good nite. You "things" have a great evening!

Folks be well and enjoyb the evening

eastlake joe writes:
Lumberjack
You're not READINGBETWEEN the lines in my post guy. I support you all the way where Hal D. bag is concerned.

I know what you are saying. Both spellings of the name fit him.

Hillary Spin on Iraq Vote
eastlake joe

The only problem with Hillary’s answer is she was given the intelligence report that warned her about the issues of going into Iraq and she claims she did not read it before voting to send troops into war.

Bill Maher To Senator Clinton: “Why Should Americans Vote For Someone Who Can Be Fooled By George Bush?”

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/hillary-spin-on-ir aq-vote


Lumberjack
You're not READINGBETWEEN the lines in my post guy. I support you all the way where Hal D. bag is concerned.

eastlake joe writes:
Lumberjack7392
I told you last nite thats massengil not massengale. It's Hal D. bag

Do a web search on the name, and you will see why I call our resident Dumbbuttcrap Mouthpiece that.

Courtney Massengale Doofus
They were everywhere guy and it was a major embarrassment

Courtney, now that is a major load of Bravo Sierra. I lived in SC in the 70s and 80s. From 1974-1976 I was a Richland County Sheriff's Deputy under Frank Powell, and the KLan never even showed up anywhere. In the 80s I was assigned to ships at NAVSTA Charleston, NWS Charleston, and NAVSTA Charleston., and we never heard anything on the local news about the KLan. My ex-wife was a USC Police Officer, and resided in Columbia while getting her degree at USC, and she never mentioned the Klan. We spent quite a bit of time in Sumter County with friends there , and never ran into anyKlansmen. You are so full of BRAVO SIERRA that when you die you will be given an enema and buried in a very small thimble.

Lumberjack7392
I told you last nite thats massengil not massengale. It's Hal D. bag

Lumberjack7392
Darn I sure am pleased. I seem to be irritating our cardboard hero Lumberjack. I love it LOL.

Bman3
"To let everyone know:
Hal claims that when he lived in S.C. (for two years at Shaw Air Force Base) in the 1980's he knew lots of people in the KKK. They were everywhere. They would freely announce they were members. They even had business cards to pass out."

true

"Hal, you still did not answer my question:
Did those business cards have a picture of Robert "Sheets" Byrd on them as their mascot? "

Actually no even back then if I can remember properly that long ago they had Dick Cheney but I could be wrong LMAO

Courtney Massengale Donahue
DAMN I hate to disillusion you but I am not a Zoomie Allah be praised (said special for you lol). Sissy if you can't say it then stop hiding LMAO

Well, Courtney, you may not be a Zoomie but you are a kissup zero.

Gest.. and Bob schmeil
No, I care about what vets who have not tried to defame other troops with lies But I sure don't care about what two who ape the lib lines say.You two are just like jessie and his people. Talk the talk but don't care about anything enough to walk the walk. B.S walking on two legs.

Bman3
"I see you are over at this thread. Unfortunately I don't have much time tonight.

But I was wondering, from our conversation last night, have you seen any of your KKK buddies today?

Since from what you said last night you apparently associated with them in the 80's.

I mean that is the only way you could be getting business cards from them, right?"

They were everywhere guy and it was a major embarrassment



To let everyone know:
Hal claims that when he lived in S.C. (for two years at Shaw Air Force Base) in the 1980's he knew lots of people in the KKK. They were everywhere. They would freely announce they were members. They even had business cards to pass out.


Hal, you still did not answer my question:
Did those business cards have a picture of Robert "Sheets" Byrd on them as their mascot?

Lumberjack7392
"Since I was not a kissup Zoomie officer,just a seagoing squid, I'll stay with my original comment to major bs artist, and to you FOADESABATM. "

DAMN I hate to disillusion you but I am not a Zoomie Allah be praised (said special for you lol). Sissy if you can't say it then stop hiding LMAO

Hal D
I see you are over at this thread. Unfortunately I don't have much time tonight.

But I was wondering, from our conversation last night, have you seen any of your KKK buddies today?

Since from what you said last night you apparently associated with them in the 80's.

I mean that is the only way you could be getting business cards from them, right?



To let everyone know:
Hal claims that when he lived in S.C. (for two years at Shaw Air Force Base) in the 1980's he knew lots of people in the KKK. They were everywhere. They would freely announce they were members. They even had business cards to pass out.


Hal, you still did not answer my question:
Did those business cards have a picture of Robert "Sheets" Byrd on them as their mascot?

Bobzmcishl
I just spoent a day or so with Max Cleland. A finer man I have never met but he is the poster child of conservative cowardice. His message and actions say just "say no". No more BS time for adult leadership and responsibility - AMEN

Courtney Massengale Donahue
Since I was not a kissup Zoomie officer,just a seagoing squid, I'll stay with my original comment to major bs artist, and to you FOADESABATM.

reply to UncleB
Clearly, you hadn't heard that John Stuart Mill was one of the shining lights who developed the modern liberalism you conservatives so despise.

Funny how the real world is so much more complicated than ideologues imagine it to be.

I agree that the quote from Mill is great. Gets right to the point.

Conservatives bash Military if Democrats
It's ok to support the military as long as they aren't Democrats or oppose the war. Then all bets are off - the Karl Rove dog pound goes into action, the swift boaters are mobilized, and Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin get their fangs sharpened, and Rush the gigantic bad butt deferment poster boy get his megaphone out. Attack, attack, attack. McCain got slimed in South Carolina, Kerry got slimed in 2004, Cleland got slimed in Georgia. Four stars such as Clark and Shinseki who predicted the Iraq debacle are ignored. But General Petreaus who pretty much came out for Bush is 2004 is treated like the reincarnation of McArthur. And how about the eight soldiers who wrote the op-ed piece in the N.Y. Times giving a much different view of the war than Petraeus. They were shunned and later two of them were killed in action. They too were hero's and should be honored. Also Pat Tillman who was opposed to the Iraq war but served honorably in Afghanistand. He too should be honored. Liberals support the troops and the Afghanistan mission to get Obama, but not the Bush driven agenda of an unnecessary war in Iraq that has cost thousands of U.S. lives and hundred's of thousand's of Iraqi lives. And of yea - about a trillion more dollars added to our national deficit. Attaboy Bush - only 15 more months to go and you're out of here -don't let the door hit you in the a--.

Lumberjack7392
"Yup conservatives talk the talk, but they won't walk the walk. They'll just stay at home where it's safe!!!"

Sierra Hotel is the proper response but I suspect you would not understand

Not really sure.
Read this second article and feel, "awed?". You have put into words what I have known for over 30 years.

The military also saved me but not from a life of gangs but a life of servitude. It gave me the means to grow, learn and teach. Yea, I was a "lifer". BAck then draftees used this term to imply you were stupid or a southerner,


Those catchy phrases used for recruiting mean more than most know.

Thanks for validating my thoughts.

Viet. Vet. (3 tours)

"KC"

DIVERDOWN
"writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 6:47 PM
Hal Donahue writes:
Fair? you tell me. Conservatives are screwing the troops like never before

Theres the word that libs just love to use "fair"."

You evade the question answer chicken little

major bs artist writes:
Of course all bets are off when reality sets in. The conservatives don't like anything messy like body bags, wounded soldiers, soldiers minus their arms or legs and soldiers who now have severe mental problems from seeing their buddies blown to smithereens by the enemy.

Yup conservatives talk the talk, but they won't walk the walk. They'll just stay at home where it's safe!!!

BRAVO SIERRA.

Diverdown
You are correct. I'm no hero, I give my salute to Cpl. Martinez. Thanks for the thought.


Are you kidding
That fact that liberals are even trying to debate this column shows just how delusional they have become.

When I joined the AF I didn't consider myself to be a liberal or a conservative, but after just a few short years I quickly discovered which group of people actually cared about me.

When I was stationed in Texas ("red state"), at least once a week a stranger would see me in uniform and walk over to thank me and shake my hand. After 2 years in Maryland (one of the "bluest" states) this has happened to me exactly once.....and the guy was in his 70s.

After 21 years so far, libs should just drop the facade....as San Fran has done....you are not fooling anyone.

POLcat writes:
I am a conservative, retired military, served in Iraq, my action and really the actions of those who have served indicate selfishness.

I think you meant to say unselfishness, but love the post. You are my new hero POLcat. Thanks for your service.

The subject
is why do conservatives seem to support the military more than liberals? It does come off that way, it is liberals who mostly have insulted the military by calling them Nazis, Stalinist, who don't bel;ieve they are able to accomplish their mission, called them terrorist, and impugne their motives for joining, ban the ROTC from college campuses, in the past and now called them baby-killers, insulted their intelligence, the questrion should be why do that?

Stedes: good and evil are delusions, who says? who is the arbiter of good and evil? Can you assign a terrorist act as good or evil? do have that capacity? What about the acts of Hitler? Saddam Hussien? I've seen captured videos of beheadings, good or evil?

Phlyo It is not just insurgents, Iran is fueling much of this, have you asked what would happen if we just quit? Aside from the blood bath, does the prospect of an enlarged Iran seem to be a great thing?

I am a conservative, retired military, served in Iraq, my action and really the actions of those who have served indicate selfishness. Have you served? Have you/do you send troop(s) care packages? Do you care if the Shittes slaughter the Sunnis, or if the Kurds get slaughtered? Do not compare us to the Jihadist, we are not the same. You only look at the situation from your own point of view, I am no relativist, most I have served with know and can see clear distictions between right nad wrong , good and evil.

John Konop
If he lied so did Hellary. She said that her husband wanted to take out Saddam but didn't get the chance. From her mouth to this site. So did he lie?

Hal Donahue writes:
Fair? you tell me. Conservatives are screwing the troops like never before

Theres the word that libs just love to use "fair".

In their world nothing is fair. How can we ever win a war with the libs/dems in control of congress?

You tell me Hal


NoSbArtist(?) & Banks
NBS BULL S>>>!!!!!!! Same to you banks! You guys say that conservatives support and love the millitary because it lets them let someone else do their dirty work? You two are so brainless you've got a vaccume in your skull. I can also tell you either didn't serve or you got out on bad paper. I respect and revere ALL vets and current soldiers as we have one thing very much in common that you would never understand and thats a love for our country strong enough to risk laying down our lives for it. How the Heck do you type and breath at the same time?

townhall posters
I saw several responses to my 9:25am post. Not one of them intelligently addressed the issues I raised. All I get is name-calling and snide remarks. Not one of them is even worth responding to.

Why is it so impossible to engage Republicans in serious debate?

Phylo out.

What conservatives really love .....
about the military is all the pomp and pagentry. They love seeing the men march about in their spiffy uniforms going ooo-rah in unison preparing to fight them over there so we don't fight them over here. They love the parades, Veterans Day (lip service), Memorial day (more lip service complete with obligitary weeping), West Point, Annapolis and all the other trappings the military offers.

Of course all bets are off when reality sets in. The conservatives don't like anything messy like body bags, wounded soldiers, soldiers minus their arms or legs and soldiers who now have severe mental problems from seeing their buddies blown to smithereens by the enemy.

Yup conservatives talk the talk, but they won't walk the walk. They'll just stay at home where it's safe!!!

Did Rudy lie?

DIVERDOWN
"to name just a few examples. So liberals please do not try convince this elderly veteran that you are patriotic. "

Is this where I list the way conservatives abuse the troops? Right no I am working on a piece that the Navy discharged a sailor with cancer declaring him fit for duty. The next month he had an 88% disability. Fair? you tell me. Conservatives are screwing the troops like never before

QParker writes:
LIBERALS DO LOATH THE MILITARY!
Any doubts, look at how vets and retirees are treated on college campuses or how the U.S. military has been portrayed in every movie made since 1970. Socialism cannot abide self reliant, disciplined individuals. The socialist element that controls many facets of American life is committed to driving military people and military values into a pariah subculture.

Ill like to add a few more to the list if it hasn’t already been done by now.

San Francisco (bastion of liberalism)

1 Declares itself a military free zone
2 By a margin of 60 percent to 40 percent, San Francisco's voters told military recruiters to stay out of the city's high schools. See website http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/ 000/006/381ngctp.asp
3 Shuns USS Iowa
see link http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8C3PH0G0&show_art icle=1

to name just a few examples. So liberals please do not try convince this elderly veteran that you are patriotic.



let's see just who is with our troops ..
and who is not:

I am currently working on a project that would show our military personnel just how much our country does appreciate their sacrifice. I haven't worked out all the details yet and any help I can get from you GOOD folks out there would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking for anyone with contacts with the military to work out how to deliver a product directly to our troops. I'm going to contact MoveAmericaForward.com with my proposal, too. In a nutshell, I'm trying to ensure our troops get a free vacation when they are on leave. If you want to know more, email me at fenrir98@sc.rr.com.

Comments from others
Yes Madison was one of our founders and a damm good one, but I guess the presidency went to his head. I stand by my comments about the founding fathers - they had a huge mistrust about giving too much power to the executive branch and wanted a strong Congress to counter balance that. They were especially afraid of the European type wars that dragged on for generations. The wars we did get into were not ones we wanted. As for the Democrats being conservative in WWII that could not be further from the truth - FDR was considered a traitor to his class and was villified by the wealthy class. The Republican Party in those days was pretty much conservative except for Wilkie and Eisenhower later on. The major difference prior to WWII was that conservatives did not want us in foreign wars whereas FDR was aligned with Britain and more of an internationalist. Conservatives were fond of Hitler and did not like the British by the way. Of course that all changed after December 7.

Marco
Thank you for your service Marine!

Semper Fi

PS -I can't wait to read your book.

talisman (aka taliban)
I did not know they gave the guests at Gitmo computer acccess!

Why? Indeed.
Because Marco, conservatives would rather YOU do the fighting, so they don't have to. If they have YOU. the military, it means they can continue to shop and watch American Idol and smoke Cuban cigars with impunity while guys like you do their dirty work. They'll put a yellow ribbon on their bumper, but don't expect them to do much else - their support begins and ends on the bumper. If you were sent into Iraq on a lie, don't expect them to ensure that you don't die for that lie. They want you to stay there on the false hope that the so-called "Islamofascists" terrorists will stay where you are and not come here. You are the bait for their boogeyman, see? But don't fear, Marco, because so long as you continue to stick to their line of reasoning regarding Iraq and our occupation there, you won't have to worry about them smearing your good work and good name. If you should wake up and realize that this war is a lie then please watch your back Marco, because the conservatives on the right will have you dragged through the mud in no time flat. Count on it.

Why? Indeed.
Because Marco, conservatives would rather YOU do the fighting, so they don't have to. If they have YOU. the military, it means they can continue to shop and watch American Idol and smoke Cuban cigars with impunity while guys like you do their dirty work. They'll put a yellow ribbon on their bumper, but don't expect them to do much else - their support begins and ends on the bumper. If you were sent into Iraq on a lie, don't expect them to ensure that you don't die for that lie. They want you to stay there on the false hope that the so-called "Islamofascists" terrorists will stay where you are and not come here. You are the bait for their boogeyman, see? But don't fear, Marco, because so long as you continue to stick to their line of reasoning regarding Iraq and our occupation there, you won't have to worry about them smearing your good work and good name. If you should wake up and realize that this war is a lie then please watch your back Marco, because the conservatives on the right will have you dragged through the mud in no time flat. Count on it.

stedes: Stop reading Chomsky
stedes:
Stop reading Chomsky & stop perceiving reality through a post-modern, neo-Marxist prism.

Stedes let me guess?
You are a white guy

You have no Vietnamese, Cuban or, Granadinan personal friend.

You hold a certain intellectual comtempt for anyone who loves this country since in your mind love of country indicates ignorance.

You think that Europe (the continent that invented communism, Nazi-facism, colonialism, and real imperialism) is more righteous and deserving of imitation than the US.

Everything you need to know you learned in college.

Am I wrong?

Wayfinder
You mentioned something about a "paddlefoot". What exactly is that?

Go Marines!
A conservative Latino who loves this country? Will you marry me?

Thank you for your service! God Bless America!

Now let's see what kind of bashing I get for wasting comment space...

Emotional Attachments to the Military?
I dont get it. Why should anyone dem/lib or repub/con attach a emotions such as love or hate to what is essentially a government institution with its own set of functions within?

reply to Tallil2long
Madison is about as authentic as you can get when it comes to Founding Fathers. Being the principal author of the Constitution will do that for you.


You're right on target, however, about the War of 1812. Ill-advised, idiotic, and unnecessary.As any gamer will tell you, when the bad guys get to burn your capital, you've not done well.

The moral I draw from this sorry episode is that sometimes presidents, even Founding Fathers, can screw up. I"m not entirely convinced that the Mexican War or the Spanish-American War were really necessary as well.

Americans should learn from history not to avoid all war, or to mindlessly endorse any and every war, but to recognize that our leaders need to have common sense, to have the nation's true interests as their prime directive, and to leave their egos or other parts of their anatomy they might use in contests tucked away.

wow25684
Perhaps you need to read his book to figure out where he is coming from with that statement.

Devoid of virtue?
You say that your Staff Sargeant showed you that "all I had done up to that point was crap and devoid of virtue". A statement as sweepingly negative as that suggests nothing but negative things about the military. To ignore any potential good in your past is to ignore experiences and knowledge that shaped you in favour of a homogenised militaristic view of how one should behave, believe and exist.

Not all that good, in my opinion.

Talli2long
Hi! Awfully late there isn't it? My hubby is at the FOB there. Say hey if you're ever down his way.

To Military Lovin' Dogg
dig the new handle...

Military Lovin Dogg
now thats funny, Dogg. Makes me want to stop calling you shaggy. I might have to bump you up to rin tin tin (rinny). Yeah I like that one. And I truely hope that when you say you admire the military, you mean it. But with all of your past posts rinny, you sure don't convince us. And as far suffering, even though you don't see it, an awful lot of us suffer with worry for family members we have over there. My support is unwavering for them, wether I agree or not. Its for them.
take ur easy rinny. have a good evening. We'll be back at it tomorrow.

Rinny: ruff ruff
sorry, could not help myself, Dogg

"Military Lovin' " Dipsh!t writes:
An interesting list you put up there - all countries that have engaged in empire, colonization and genocide - or are the result of such. Duly noted and condemned.

I am quite sure that the South Koreans would just love to have the "lifestyle" of ther North Korean counterparts. You know starvation, shoddy housing, GULAGSs, dictatorship, secret police, no human rights, no personal freedoms, no consumer goods, no utilities, a sh!tty economy, and being an international charity.

Book
I recommend the book by Marco Martinez. Compelling reading.


Scroll by trolls
Wow. My scroll wheel is going to fail. All the trolls are on this thread.


Sun Sword writes
Question -- how many enlisted personnel will kick in more than $200 bucks for any candidate?

Thats a great question..Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer. All their interested in is poll numbers which don't mean a thing.

SunSword
go to military.com and look at their polls.

John Konap Flunks Math
He states: 60% of the troops via campaign donations do not support Bush’s Iraq war strategy?

But from the source he cites: "So far this year, 40 percent of military money has gone to Democrats for Congress and president, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics."

So -- even if the statistics are correct -- John K. has it backwards. Dems get 40% -- not 60%.

As for the validity of the report, note the asterisk: "*Data reflects contributions greater than $200. The Federal Election Commission does not require recipients to itemize smaller donations or disclose those contributors' names and occupations."

Question -- how many enlisted personnel will kick in more than $200 bucks for any candidate?

To Bobzmcishl
Boy, hope you don't consider Madison to be a Founding Father. During his administration, the U.S. declared an uneccessary (and extremely ill-advised) war with Britain, launched an invasion of foreign soil (Canada), saw its capital burned, and generally made a real hash of things. New England Federalists even threatened to secede if the government didn't end the war.

By the bye, for those of you who believe the war was necessary, please note that Britain did not cease impressing American sailors nor hassling American shipping as a result of the war. This would have happend anyway following Napoleon's final overthrow when the Royal Navy was stood down, reducing the demand for sailors, and normal trade relations reestablished with the Continent, eliminating Britain's need to stop and search neutral shipping.
In fact, the damage done to American trade due to the war was vastly greater than simply bearing up and waiting for the Napoleonic Wars to end. Britain's highhanded prewar ways were really only an economic inconvenience. The only REAL reason for going to war was prestige -- certainly not a case of 'last resort'.
Incidentally, losing our capital and bungling the invasions of Canada did NOT improve our prestige, even with the high-profile naval victories and the last-second win at New Orleans.


lib/con != dem/gop
Bobzmcishl:There is no real scientific evidence that conservatives love the military any more than liberals do. In WW II the opposite was the case.

This would look true if the parties had not changed since then. However in the 30's and 40's the Democrat party was conservative and the GOP was liberal. The Dem. party became liberal in 1968. the GOP moved toward conservative on 1964 and became that in 1980.

For proof compare the tax policies (first hand please) of Kennedy and Reagan, and the economic policies of Nixon and Clinton. You will see that Kennedy was conservative and Nixon was liberal. I think it is becoming obvious now that Bush is unfettered from a future election that he also is liberal.

What is your take on this?

Bobzmcishl

To dale
"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for ..."

The writer of the song didn't give humans enough credit. As long as we humans run our own affairs on this earth, we will find plenty of reasons to kill each other.

Banks and No BS
America's turn rightward after 9/11 was to be expected, but the ill advised adventure in Iraq has created a jingosistic atmosphere not seen since William Randolph Hearst revved up America to go to war against Spain. Our current militarism is part guilt over the horrible way returning Vietnam troops were greeted. Our generation still remembers that ingratitude. There is no real scientific evidence that conservatives love the military any more than liberals do. In WW II the opposite was the case. Right now, almost all of us support the troops but less than 25% support the Iraq mission. But conservatives take the stance that not supporting the mission is akin to not supporting the troops - not true! Banks and No BS have it right. The founding fathers would be aghast at today's militarism. They envisioned an America that stayed out of foreign adventures - they saw first hand the stupidity of the European wars and wanted no part of that. Our founding fathers only went to war as a last resort, something George W. Bush should learn.

one more shot
P Henry:

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.

So much to comment on, so little time.
Mr Martinez, thanks for your great article. I think in many parts you are right on. I think you may have missed one or two. the one which comes to mind is stated best by a longstanding LIB fav:

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for ..."

The cold truth is that if there is nothing worth dying for there is nothing worth living for either.

P. Henry said
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

I have not had the opportunity to be in the military but my family has and and I will give every breath I have to the preservation of the liberties our Fathers, and you, have bought for us.

Hal Doofus writes:
Lumberjack7392
You are such a bitter little man try and smile once in a while. Why do you guys keep going back in history instead of looking forward or around you now?

Who's bitter, Courtney?

History
HalD writes:

Why do you guys keep going back in history instead of looking forward or around you now?

Something about doomed to repeat it.. or something like that.

PLEASE tell me when you posted "now Bush can be dragged before the Hague as soon as he leaves office" you were just pressing buttons!

Being such forward looking type, can't you see the dangers to OUR country (and Allies) if that happens?

Hal D
If PEANUT BRAIN hasnt been dragged before the Hague then what makes you think BUSH will be. We all know Carter started all these Problems in the Middle East to start with. All I have to say is Torture of Americans by the Hands of IRAN for 444 days. He has the B#LLS to talk about troture when he gave this country 4 yrs of torture ubder his Communist REGIME. Lets see Higher gas prices in the history, highest Interest rates in History, Lines at gas stations that today the ACLU would have him Impeached for., and of course the most famous 444 days of horrrific torture for white people, remember Jesse Jackson got all the minirities out of IRAN I bet that is a shocker top some. But the worst thing PEANUT BRAIN does is running around the world making MILLIONS of Dollars bashing the Country he ran for 4 years. What a shame so dont give me this crap that Carter was a great Amnerican .

A liberal who loves the military
I'm a liberal who loves the military. Always have. I grew up with the images of WWII in my mind, and was proud of my father and his decorations. What all too many of my fellow liberals don't get is the following:

1. War isn't going to disappear. It never has. While not all wars need to involve the US, there have been, and will be, wars in which our involvement is necessary, if only for our own survival. If it's a choice between us or 'them' (Nazis, Communists, Muslims), I want the winner to be 'us.' Many liberals really think that all wars can be avoided, that there should be some sort of mutually satisfying negotiation process that will always be able to keep two sides from fighting. Generally, peace is preferable to war, but not on every occasion. And Hitler would have still been Hitler, even if he'd done a workshop on anger management.

2. All of the things liberals value--the freedoms Americans believe in, the opportunity to oppose all forms of oppression and discrimination, the liberation of people from servitude--would vanish if the US could not protect itself. We would also lose any capacity to bring about such results in any other part of the world.

3. American soldiers are not killers. I know enough about military training, and have known enough people who've served, to know that our soldiers are not taught to be bands of marauders. The rare American soldier who crosses the line between discipline and criminal brutality is just that--rare. American forces have never done anything like the Japanese "Rape of Nanking," for example, or behaved with the savagery shown in Bosnia.

4. Finally, unlike most liberals, I like guns. I like armor as well. Although I'm not a military historian by training, I read and enjoy military history. Very, very few liberals do this, which is most unfortunate, for them.

Lumberjack7392
You are such a bitter little man try and smile once in a while. Why do you guys keep going back in history instead of looking forward or around you now?

Tallil2long
"But Roger's point seemed to be that whichever party had a statistical advantage in prior-service members must be automatically more patriotic, etc.
I wouldn't agree to this propostition. My wife is an oustandingly patriotic person, and she's never served."

Nor do I. A lobbyist from a very conservative organization was speaking to a very conservative congressman and the congressman was saying how wiithout the WWII GI bill his Dad used that he would never have gotten the opportunity to be a congressman. The lobbyist says then you will support a new GI bill for the troops? The very conservative cogressman said no way we can't afford it. My point is vets and people with ties will still not always support the troops or vets either. Bob Casey is a good example he strongly supports vets and the military and no one in his family served. But as you agreed it is not a patriotic litmus test

Hal Doofus writes:
Lumberjack7392
If you are addressing me little man, I know Bob and the Senate leadership is happy with him also. He is a strong independant man and a strong supporter of the military and veterans

Courtney, I was referring to his father at the 1992 DNC. Try reading for understanding, you officious little prick.

To Hal Donahue
Oh, I think it would be a very good thing to have more former servicemembers in Congress. While not every former servicemember is good or competent or patriotic, having more would provide a greater pool of knowledge about the tools they have to wield.

But Roger's point seemed to be that whichever party had a statistical advantage in prior-service members must be automatically more patriotic, etc.
I wouldn't agree to this propostition. My wife is an oustandingly patriotic person, and she's never served.

Hal
ARGH! lmao

Stedes don't speak for me, please!
Plenty of people in the countries you mention and other countries who suffer for lack of freedom probably pray every day for the US to come and liberate them.

The black legend of American interventionism is just the one-sided version of those who persist in ignoring the fact that America is respected, love and imitated by many around the world.

Do you really believe that Hungary, Poland, Latvia, Georgia, Checoslovakia,Tibet, etc., wouldn't have welcomed the USMC with open arms?

Do you really believe that our friends in Viet-Nam, Cambodia, Laos and the Philippines were all corrupted gangsters, without honor or morals?

What is your experience in fighting a totalitarian dictatorship?

Do you really beieve that a post-modern, ideological, totalitarian dictator, who owns the mass communication media, the armed forces and the economy, can be deposed without outside help?

Just like in Iraq anyone who is a friend of the United States is discredited in every foreign confrontation the left buys into the prejudices of the enemies of America.

And that is why the Left abhors the military.

It takes a lot of blindness to deny that the Soviet Union, and not the United States, was the evil empire.

Why else did they broke up?

Lumberjack7392
If you are addressing me little man, I know Bob and the Senate leadership is happy with him also. He is a strong independant man and a strong supporter of the military and veterans

NYC DOGG
First off, I agree. Why you got flagged is a good question. There was no need for it. Second,
if you don't mind me asking. And I'm being serious here for a moment. Why are you so grumpy all the time? And I am really not digging you, or playin around. Why are you so mad at everything? Come on man. Lighten up some. Make some funnies once and a while.

NYC D!pshit writes:
When we attack or invade a nation that never lifted a finger towards us - like Vietnam, Korea or Iraq.

PS - Since you guys are such homos, i've flagged all the posters whom i thought flagged me. Everytime I'm flagged in the future - particularly since I insutled no one, i will retaliate in kind...

First, I have NEVER flagged you, despite such despicable statemens like the one above.

Second, I guess you need to condemn Britain, France, Turkey, Greece, Australia, France and others in the UN for "invading" South Korea in 1950, and Australia again in 1966 in Vietnam.

NYC Doggg
"he's dead on with the Bush doctrine of torture and lying. I read what he had to say this morning - and, as usual, instead of replying to his words you attack him, validating everything he said..."

Relax Max is rabid but now Bush can be dragged before the Hague as soon as he leaves office


Hal Doofus writes:
I realise that this is VERY difficult for you to accept but the Democratic Party accepts all types. I know most of the new guys well and they are doing a great job and guess what they are liked at home too. Oh one last point they are moderates not conservatives but you folks have gon so fringe you amy not realise that

Courtney: Ask Bob Casey about that, if you could.

They are so moderate that they do everything the leadership tells them.

SSGT
BOO! LMAO

Tallil2long
"This is why liberal/progressives need to encourage soldiers and seek a better understanding of the military, rather than keep perpetuating silly rumor and myth. "

Here we agree 100%

Lumberjack7392
Your correct on that. Hal beats feets so fast when that comes up. Its my mission to find him trolling wherever that may be, and shoo him away.


Hal: Oh Robbie, they just won't leave us alone.

Tallil2long
"Your point about more Democrats in congress having served is, even if correct, meaningless."

I didn't read his point but I do think D or R with military experience is very important. I suspect that with a larger military contingent in Congress we may well not have gone into Iraq or if we did we would have with better forces. I know even working the Hill back in the 80's so many Congressman had no clue what I was talking about when I was talking military programs. The other reason for more military experience is that they just might aid vets and their families

Max Power writes:
SSGT
I love it how as soon as we start talking about Hal and his service record not showing up on military.com he disappears.

maybe we should start that as soon as he starts posting....

I just call him Courtney, since he is an exact copy of Courtney Massengale.

loco
"...He neglects to remind us they are conservative democrats and are having trouble submitting to the democrat party discipline holding them in line from voting their own philosophy. How long will they stay in line and how long can they satisfy their constituency and the party at the same time? "

I realise that this is VERY difficult for you to accept but the Democratic Party accepts all types. I know most of the new guys well and they are doing a great job and guess what they are liked at home too. Oh one last point they are moderates not conservatives but you folks have gon so fringe you amy not realise that

To Roger
If the next batch of freshman Republican congressmen were to bring the Republican 'prior-service' average over that of the Democrats, does that mean that the Democrats suddenly become less patriotic or less supportive of the military?
No.

My wife has never served. Does that mean she never has been and can never be, as patriotic or as supportive of the military as any person who has served?
No.

Your point about more Democrats in congress having served is, even if correct, meaningless.


Hak Donahue
reminds us of the former military men who were elected as democrats. He neglects to remind us they are conservative democrats and are having trouble submitting to the democrat party discipline holding them in line from voting their own philosophy. How long will they stay in line and how long can they satisfy their constituency and the party at the same time?

Ron
If only nmi would have just come out and told us that this is the only conflict in military history that has been mismanaged, I would not have questioned it one bit! Like you said, where was nmi at the begining?


Roberto: squirt squirt squirt... How do ya like that Hal?

Stedes
Do you not agree that the Japanese and the South Koreans enjoy a high standard of living thanks to our involvement? Do you not agree that the Eastern European countries that were formally under Soviet domination are starting to enjoy a higher standard of living thanks to our involvement?
In fact most of the Eastern European countries that we helped "liberate" from Soviet domination are now some of our biggest allies in the GWOT by donating troops, logistical support and use of their facilities.
Do you not agree that when diaster strikes anywhere in the world the U.S. is usually the first country to donate relief supplies and help people recover?
Are you against people having a higher standard of living?


Begging your indulgence
This is not strictly on topic, but I heard Jimmy Carter insist yesterday that indeed the United States does use torture to interrogate prisoners and I must vent now without delay and for purely selfish, therapeutic reasons. Thank you.
In his persistent, pathetic quest for relevance, Jimmy Carter continues to offer his moronic mumblings for all who will listen, even as those few who do listen greet him with an uneasy silence born of embarrassment that so great a nation could have elected, even in the aftermath of Watergate, such a pusillanimous non-entity.
No one that I know of, Democrat or Republican, solicits the opinion of Mr. Carter on any subject whatsoever, so why does he insist on re-surfacing from time to time to refresh our memory of his monumental incompetence?
The time to leave a meaningful legacy is while you are President, not in the after years when you have zero authority ot change your failures in office.
Thankfully, gone with the wind is the vacuous grin. Dare we hope that the lumbering lips will soon follow?
Please, Mr. Carter stop humiliating yourself and the country and enjoy your retirement years in comfortable--and silent--oblivion. No one wants or needs your "help".

N. Iraq
For those of you who follow this kind of thing:

Strator just reported Turkish incursion into N Iraq. Looks like more then just a bug hunt. F-16's, a couple of snakes and three of their Special Forces and Ranger teams.

stedes writes:
Japan functions as a US Satellite. In exchange for access to US Markets they must agree to host US military bases. The Island of Okinawa is openly rejects US bases and is it casuing anger and resentment among the People there. There is even a popular anti-american communist party in Japan.

In South Korea, the US has supported three decades of Military dictatorship. In 1997 South Korea went Bankrupt due to our support.

We have 61 military bases throughout the world which is casuing resentment. Remember the ski lift cable cut in Italy by US jet. The rape of a Japanes girl in Okinawa.

Last time I looked South Korea was a democracy, and has been for many years. In the case of the Okinawa girl, the military man was tried and convicted in a military court martial. In the Italian incident we apologized and pad compensation, and punished the pilot.

Several years ago there was a push to close and consolidate bases in both Asia and the Pacific. there were howls of protests from the nations affected, because of the lost economic benefit to the host nations, and the idea was shelved. The Philippines demanded that we close both Clark AFB, (which was unusable after Mt Pinatubo's eruption, and required a great deal of repair to become usuable) and NRF Subic Bay, and we did, IAW their wishes. When we packed up and left, the Filipinos cried that we should have given them some warning, and help.
Evert time we suggest bringing the US troops in South Korea home, the DEMOCRATICALLY elected government protests, and demand that we stay, so we do.

UncleB
Who in Iraq, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Venezuela, Argentina, Ecuador, Cuba asked us to be there? We went there specifically to overthrow existing soverign governments.

The people that did ask us to be there were Ruthless Dicatators to prop up thier regime. El Salvador, Honduras, Indonesia, Iran (1953 to install the Shah)

These is only a small example. Here is a web site that lists all the US inventions.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=us_i nterventions_project

mmi-DaveF
Wow! If only Pres Bush had you to advise him back then!

Ron
No Problem I didn't see it anyway and even if I had I probably wouldn't have said anything knowing it wasn't for me.

Do Conservatives Love the Military?
Dear Mr. Martinez:

In your column today your write, "Whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it."

Your words bring to mind the Sept. 29 Town Hall column of Kathryn Jean Lopez, in which Ms. Lopez writes:

"Pete Hegseth, the articulate head of Veterans for Freedom -- folks who know true wartime sacrifice -- shares my opinion. 'I don't understand why he wouldn't call on Americans to serve their country, in uniform, in this extremely important war. President Bush understands the stakes of the fight in Iraq and should call on the best and brightest to serve on the battlefield. That message, to me, seems like a no-brainer."

Question is if, in fact, "Conservatives Love the Military," why didn't the President and his team link arms with "the best and brightest" instead of surrounding themselves with loyal and grateful incompetents to fight a war that Sen. John McCain on several occasions has stated has been "terribly mismanaged." A war that as long as twenty months ago Wiliam F. Buckley, in his Town Hall column and in a subsequent Bloomberg interveiw called "Pres. Bush's failure."

And as far as protecting our country, I refer you to Rich Lowry's Oct. 8 Town Hall Column in which Lowry, editor of the National Review, wrote:

"THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER BROUGHT TO BEAR ITS RESOURCES IN A TRULY NATIONAL EFFORT TO WIN (THE IRAQ WAR)."

Mr. Bush, our Commander-in-Chief, for five years has been telling the American people how essential it is to our nation's security and survival to prevail in Iraq and how dire for the United States are the consequences of failure. And still he failed to fully utilize the nation's once-considerable resources which could have ensured swift victory, minimal casualties, the stability of Iraq and the security of the U.S.

DaveF

Rob
I did not say we are an empire like ancient Rome. We do not need to be. We have economic power Rome did not have.

Lets look at some of the countries you mention.

Japan functions as a US Satellite. In exchange for access to US Markets they must agree to host US military bases. The Island of Okinawa is openly rejects US bases and is it casuing anger and resentment among the People there. There is even a popular anti-american communist party in Japan.

In South Korea, the US has supported three decades of Military dictatorship. In 1997 South Korea went Bankrupt due to our support.

We have 61 military bases throughout the world which is casuing resentment. Remember the ski lift cable cut in Italy by US jet. The rape of a Japanes girl in Okinawa.

Also, Economic aid is not really aid. There are too many strings attached. The IMF, World Bank and USAID are designed to loan money to third world projects to hire US and Western business. It is one of the major contributors to third world debt and poverty.

But there are many other examples. Essentially if you do not support US interests, we will either clandestenly or overtly involve ourself in your affairs.

Also - the philosophy of the neo-con Think Tank "Project for a New American Century" is exactly to be a empire. But a Good empire. By Spreading our values of Democracy, freedom, open markets and human rights through military force, will help promote a world in support of US interets, security and access to resources. http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.ht m

Here is a recommended reading list which explains this in more detail.

Blowback, Second Edition: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire by Chalmers Johnson

Rogue State: A Guide to the Worlds Only Superpower by William Blum

But I did mis-speak. 240 incidents of US involvement in country affairs, not 240 countries. I stand corrected.

Conservatives Love the Military?
Dear Mr. Martinez:

In your column today your write, "Whom we link arms with and support says a lot about how we view America—and what we’re willing to do to protect it."

Your words bring to mind the Sept. 29 Town Hall column of Kathryn Jean Lopez, in which Ms. Lopez writes:

"Pete Hegseth, the articulate head of Veterans for Freedom -- folks who know true wartime sacrifice -- shares my opinion. 'I don't understand why he wouldn't call on Americans to serve their country, in uniform, in this extremely important war. President Bush understands the stakes of the fight in Iraq and should call on the best and brightest to serve on the battlefield. That message, to me, seems like a no-brainer."

Question is if, in fact, "Conservatives Love the Military," why didn't the President link arms with "the best and brightest" instead of surrounding himself with loyal and grateful incompetents to fight a war that Sen. John McCain on several occasions has stated has been "terribly mismanaged." A war that as long as twenty months ago Wiliam F. Buckley, in his Town Hall column and in a subsequent Bloomberg interveiw called "Pres. Bush's failure."

And as far as protecting our country, I refer you to Rich Lowry's Oct. 8 Town Hall Column in which Lowry, editor of the National Review, wrote:

"THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER BROUGHT TO BEAR ITS RESOURCES IN A TRULY NATIONAL EFFORT TO WIN (THE IRAQ WAR)."

Mr. Bush, our Commander-in-Chief, for five years has been telling the American people how essential it is to our nation's security and survival to prevail in Iraq and how dire for the United States are the consequences of failure. And still he failed to fully utilize the nation's once-considerable resources which could have ensured swift victory, minimal casualties, the stability of Iraq and the security of the U.S.

-- Dave Futornick, West Orange, NJ

OOPS
Sorry sheepdog meant The NY City Dogg in my last post!

Martinez is actually a real politician
Yes, a real dirty politician, rather than a true military man. I can only wonder how many soldiers from liberal families he insulted? Besides, George Washington would slap him a good one if he were here today. America, has now given way to powerful morality and replaced it with guns, and this guy is ever so elated over it. Reminds a one of the Hitler guys.

Stedes writes
"We are an industrial military complex with an imperialistic agenda to spread economic blackmail and access to resources....We are in denial of the great suffering we cause in the world. We are going to pay the price for these actions"

This was written over 30 years ago and is one of the greatest editorials ever written by a non-american journalist. BTW I seriously doubt if any american journalist would ever write anything like this.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/sinclair.asp

Conservative Military
I was born in 1933. My father was a WW1 vet and
I loved to see his uniform and helmet in the attic. He had medals that he kept in a box, I
always admired the Heart with the picture of George Washington on it. When I started school
we were taught American History. In 1941 my uncles wre all in the Military as well as my oldest sisters husband. I had a map on my wall where I followed all the battles. I became a Boy Scout
and learned "I will do my Duty honor my God and
my couintry and obey the Scout law. I joined the Navy in 1952 and switched to the AF in 56 abd retired in 1975. I looked at what socialists (I use their true name) were doing to our history and Heritage I too wrote a book about our founding
and the men who carried it out. I answered a few
questions on Ammendments 1 and 2. America is God's Country and I will do my utmost to keep it that way.

SSGT
SSGT writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 10:37 AM
Hey Shaggy
for distaining the military as much as you do, you sure have seen a lot of movies of the military. hmmmm

I think SunThe1's spot on comments at 9:46 AM sum Shaggy up perfectly.

Sheepdogg (And to all Libs to which it applies)- It's OK, we forgive you. Throw away the guilt and shame. Not everyone is CAPABLE of serving in the military either mentally, emotionally or physically, even if they want to like you!. Just be supportive and appreciative of those who do!

Roger writes:
Who served?

More Democrats than Republicans, and you can take that to Google and verify it yourself.

You might put that in historic context. Given that the Democratic party is over 200 years old, it would be a given that more Democrats served than Republicans, particulary during WWII, when there was for all intents and purposes just one party.

Stedes failure to recognize
Stedes "could" be right about the 240 countries. But what he fails to recognize is that probably 238 of the 240 ASKED US TO BE THERE.
Roberta Roberta: Hal, who is this person named Stedes that sent you the flowers. You don't get that excited when I send you flowers.

The trut lies somewhere in between.
Conservatives fantasize about being Sgt. York, a deeply religious man, deservedly earning the Medal of Honor. Progressives fantasize about being General Joshua Chamberlain, an "intellectual" college professor, who became a hero freeing the slaves and being nothing lower than a general officer.

Both are so rare that, though true, they may as well be fiction. No one wants to die or be maimed, but in order to achieve these conservative or progressive fantasies one must risk the grave. Men of combat experience, be it air, land or sea, have seen the contents of a military mans grave and prefer to remain contemplatively silent out of respect for the unfortunate and in grateful thanks for their own salvation.

In truth, neither Left and Right do not treat men of war with both the respect and understanding that they deserve and in the end, "-You bet that Tommy sees".

Lumberjack7392
Since there are only 194 todat, it would seem a little difficult to be involved in 240 countries.

Yes - Thank you for the correction. I meant 240 incidents of involvement. Multiple times in one country.

And who served?
More Democrats, or more Republicans?

Who served?

Our leaders see us on bended knee and laugh at us, sending us to die, as they know they need not demand our obeisance. They have it automatically.

We think we're serving our country, not their interests.

They think of us as their toys.

Who served?

More Democrats than Republicans, and you can take that to Google and verify it yourself.

Stedes writes
"Since WWII the US has involved itself in 240 countries directly or indirectly....We are an industrial military complex with an imperialistic agenda to spread economic blackmail and access to resources....We are in denial of the great suffering we cause in the world. We are going to pay the price for these actions"

Since there are only 194 todat, it would seem a little difficult to be involved in 240 countries.

Hal & doggieturd
Hal does seem to have a littlebit different approach to things today. Hmmm....maybe the other "Hal" took the day off and papa sore-hole assigned some other "@@#$%*&" to "perform "in his place. But who cares. doggiepoo is still doggiepoo.
Hal: what is that smell. Have you had your fingers where they shouldn"t be again
Roberta Roberta: No Hal dear. It's just the doggiepoo on my shoe. Can I borrow your scarf for a moment?

Hal Donahue
Morning, Courtney.

Phylo Se Fiser writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 9:25 AM
On right and wrong
I agree that conservatives tend to see the world in terms of right and wrong. And actually, this is the big problem I have with today's American conservatives. They are a little bit too simple-minded for my taste.

Let me start by saying that I agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I generally think it's right to tell the truth and wrong to lie. But I hasten to add that right and wrong are relative concepts and what's right from one person's point of view is wrong from another person's point of view. In other words, the rightness or wrongness of anything is limited to it's particular context.

I guess in your view hat when a gentleman or gentlemen decide to relieve you of your property or your life that it right from their point of view, and wrong from yours. Therefore, they do not need to answer for their actins as they were right in their beliefs.

To quote from a great philospher, "What a maroon."

Hey Shaggy
for distaining the military as much as you do, you sure have seen a lot of movies of the military. hmmmm


shaggy: arf arf arf

NYC Dogg writes
"First it was Korea and then Vietnam and now iraq - in each one of these cases our military has been used against far weaker enemies - almost exclusively peasant or third-world peoples - with a disparity in kill rates and injuries that leaves the smell of war crimes."

It's obvious from this you don't know squat about military history. We had a large kill ratio becuase we had a huge technological advantage and better training.
Since when does that constitute a war crime?
Let me fill you in on a few other things.

North Korea-armed and trained by the Soviets and Chinese.

North Vietnam and VC-armed and trained by the Soviets. Equiped with some of the most sopisticated weaponry the U.S. had ever encountered including state of the art Surface to Air Missiles.

Did you think the Soviets and Chinese are third world peasant countries?

The NY City Dogg writes:
"What we have here is now a 50 year history of the white house (dems and repugs) and the military leadership lying to the American public about the nature and the progress of military operations."

Actually, What we have here is a failure to communicate.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

so you don't see it when told, or turn it on its head to suit you.


To Hal Donahue
"And the minute side does [own the army] thje country is in deep trouble"

This is why liberal/progressives need to encourage soldiers and seek a better understanding of the military, rather than keep perpetuating silly rumor and myth.

Marco Martinez
Hats Off to you! I WILL be buying your book this weekend! As long as there are young men & women like you, America can survive ANYTHING, even SHILLARY!

Liberalism in a Nutshell
Phylo writes: "I generally think it's right to tell the truth and wrong to lie. But I hasten to add that right and wrong are relative concepts and what's right from one person's point of view is wrong from another person's point of view. In other words, the rightness or wrongness of anything is limited to it's particular context."

NUFF SAID! STOP SHILLARY 08!

Bman3
If alcohol and accidents meant purple hearts when I was in, there would have been a lot of them issued. LOL Ohhh, the good ole days. I miss them lots.


Hal: Robbie, have you seen my nickers?

Big Difference
There's a big difference between working in the civilian world. In the civilian world you don't have to worry about covering someones behind. In the military if you don't cover someones behind the ultimate result is death. Also there's a sense of comraderie in the military that doesn't really exist in the civilian world.

Ron:
Would your post above be #7 or #8. Or how about 7 AND 8.


How about #10, he did 'jump' out of the helo didn't he.

I did not see one for specifically excluding stupidity. Just as alcohol and driving doesn't mix, alcohol and explosives don't seem to mix very well either.

Bman3
Hey Hal, do you want to go grizzly bear hunting?

Oh Oh can I come too! I'll bring the Mag!

Bravo Zulu, Marco.
Phylo Se Fiser writes: Thursday, October, 11, 2007 9:25 AM
"On right and wrong
I agree that conservatives tend to see the world in terms of right and wrong. And actually, this is the big problem I have with today's American conservatives. They are a little bit too simple-minded for my taste."

I see your remarks as the essence of what's wrong with liberalism.

Nicely done, Marco. Just ordered the book from Amazon. When I was a Navy Corpsman in Vietnam, I served with many young Latino men who could have been you. The Crotch did a good job or giving them tools to use in later life that they probably wouldn't have acquired otherwise.

Carry on.

Banks writes:
In the far-off days...we did not see this surrogate gloating over uniforms, medals (such as Petraeus's collection)

How about Max Clelland's Purple Heart Liberal gloating.

Army reg 600-8-22 para 2-8e states

h. Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:
(1) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.
(2) Heat stroke.
(3) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.
(4) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.
(5) Battle fatigue.
(6) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.
(7) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by
enemy action.
(8) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle and not involving gross negligence.
(9) Post traumatic stress disorders.
(10) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

Anything Jump out at you?

anti-militarists
It's possible to be a pure pacifist and thereby be anti-military. Those folks must realize that they must be willing to be enslaved ultimately. That doesn't account for most anti-military. I often think some of the most vocal are very disturbed by the bravery and sacrifice that they themselves cannot muster up; their choices therefore are to admit that and be grateful to those who do have it, or to adopt an attitude of disdain. Being vociferously anti-war/anti-military covers up alot of fear and guilt.

Hal Donahue writes:
Thursday, October, 11, 2007 9:25 AM
Bman3
"An awful lot of KKK folks even had businesscards that said who they were when I lived in SC"

True story and that was the 80s




HAL D:
STFU!!!!


You are a phony, lying, communist jackass. I guess I just described all liberals didn't I.

You never amounted to anything. Never will.

You are probably like Jesse McBeth. Except he lasted 44 days.

Your military service probably consisted of going into the recruiter's office (because your momma made you - to get you out of the house) and being laughed at and laughed out.

You probably became the poster child for the recruiter's office. The poster reads:

"Join now - So we can protect the Stupid"
(Insert Hal D's picture here)


And why were you getting all of those business cards from KKK members? Why were you associating with them? Trading KKK cards like baseball cards?

When you see David Duke, tell him Robert "Sheets" Byrd said hello.


Hey Hal, do you want to go grizzly bear hunting?


On second thought, Hal, do not respond to this.
Do not ever address another post to me.




and FYI
The list of Advisors and Senior Advisors for VoteVets has now been taken down and gone to cybersapce heaven. Why? Why not list the advisors if in fact they are an honest organization? Let's see, I know there's Hal, Paul Hackett, Fawcett, Everett....but why take it down?

Tallil2long
"The Army is not Republican, not Democrat. It is the Army of the American people -- regardless of what color you are, where you stand on politics, where you come from -- there are soldiers JUST LIKE YOU!

There may statistically be more soldiers who are conservative than liberal, or what have you, but NO GROUP owns the Army. "

And the minute side does thje country is in deep trouble

Phylo Se Fiser
On right and wrong

You really should not play with yourself in public like that!

Folks
Be well and try and remember this is about the military not Hal

jerabaub
ok jerabaub I reread your post and, the last statement led me astray. Glad to have you in the ANTI Bizzaro world.

Martinez inspires again
Martinez peels away the plastic liberals hide behind yet again. Liberals are too busy fighting the Bush administration to pay attention to the military and how they treat the military. Marco is using his voice to bring positive attention the Marine Corps. Thanks, Marco, for your sacrifice and activism.

To jerabaub
AMEN!
The Army is not Republican, not Democrat. It is the Army of the American people -- regardless of what color you are, where you stand on politics, where you come from -- there are soldiers JUST LIKE YOU!

There may statistically be more soldiers who are conservative than liberal, or what have you, but NO GROUP owns the Army.

folks
"This, is the latest war ever that we have joined. It has been long coming, and since you seem to have forgotten this fact, I will remind you of it. Do you remember 9/11? Maybe you should read up on some the acts of wars that have been made against the US dating back to the 70's by the Islamos. You pat yourself on the back way too much, Banks. "

War? What war? Is the nation at war? NO it isn't only our abused military is at war no one else

military voting
everyonesfacts writes:

Don't be surprised if the military votes increasingly Democratic in 2008.

Well then maybe the Democrats won't try to keep their votes from being counted this time around.

That would be a good thing no matter how they vote.

patriotdefender
"Once again, I say you are a fraud if you served like you say and consider the military to be a place for death and destrucion and that no peace was ever obtained through it...Holy cow, You are absolutely deranged."

See this is a typical rushie type trick. I never ever said: "and that no peace was ever obtained through it". That is why we won the cold war. That is why we had peace. Not because we were peacekeepers but because we were mean, nasty and darn good at dispensing death and destruction.


"How the hell could you have served honorably if you believe what you spew? How? The forebearers of this Country did nthing and it was all lies according to your interpreting!! Which is so skewed with LLS...my God, I am going to hurl. You flatter yourself and your nephew, halDelusional. Because even if he were part of a huge brigade there ain't no way that 60% follow his and your derangement."

Pure irrational spew

Martinez inspires
Marco Martinez peels away the plastic liberals hide behind yet again. Liberals are too busy fighting the Bush administration to even think about the way they treat the military. Martinez is an asset to America's military and is using his voice to bring much-needed positive publicity to the Marine Corps. Check out his book Hard Corps: From Ganster to Marine Hero on amazon.com. It's an amazing read. As a college student, I have little time to read anything other than textbooks. I couldn't put Hard Corps down. It's a gripping and ripping story.


The only
Hal in PA I could find was a 37 Year old...0-1...hmmm
Hal, I'm full of myself, how about you Robert, Robert

On right and wrong
I agree that conservatives tend to see the world in terms of right and wrong. And actually, this is the big problem I have with today's American conservatives. They are a little bit too simple-minded for my taste.

Let me start by saying that I agree that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I generally think it's right to tell the truth and wrong to lie. But I hasten to add that right and wrong are relative concepts and what's right from one person's point of view is wrong from another person's point of view. In other words, the rightness or wrongness of anything is limited to it's particular context.

For example, in Iraq, a lot of the "insurgents" see themselves as fighting back against a foreign occupier. To he and his cohorts, the insurgent doing something noble, good and brave. But to the American soldiers in Iraq, he is the embodiment of evil.

So when you step back from a situation like Iraq, the differences between right and wrong start to become muddled. And conservatives seem to have a hard time grasping this.

Of course, if we ONLY look at the situation from our own point of view, the differences will remain stark. But is that wise. Is it wise to intentionally limit our perspective of a situation? Or is it wiser to have a broader perspective of the situation?

I would argue for the latter, which, I suppose, is why I have such contempt for the views of conservatives when it comes to Iraq. To me it seems that their views are very limited in scope and selfish. By the way, I have the same level of contempt for the Islamic Jihadists.

That's why I tend toward the liberal end of the spectrum when it comes to the occupation of Iraq.

Phylo out.

Bman3
"An awful lot of KKK folks even had businesscards that said who they were when I lived in SC"

True story and that was the 80s

Max Power/Bman3
Yeah Max, I still can't seem to pull Hal's record up on line. Thats funny too, because mine comes up there.
Bman3, see your hanging in there at number 3. lol


Roberto: lah lah lah lah lah, Hey Hal, do you know that lah is Hal spelled backwards?

patriotdefender
" Are you gonna sit around while he struggles and take the cahnce you miss chow? Nope, we wanted to f-ing eat our chow. So we finish the job for the rest of the bunch. There is nothing wrong with that and I daresay you speak for your lousy self when you declare such a thing."

I don't condemn it at all quite the contrary I praise it but know you conservatives call that socialism.

" The same rules do not apply in the civilian world. They just don't. In the military, I did watch my platoon's back, and they had mine. I would lay down and die for anyone of them, even now. You are a piece of work, LSFB Colonel,ret. "

See that is my point and that is why so many veterans are so successful - those rules from the military work in civilian life too

Max Power and SSGT, et al
You'll find me on military.com before you do Hal D.

And I was never in the military.



Hal D:
Do you still have any business cards from the KKK?

Banks:
writes:
"The "Greatest Generation" were conscripts who had not asked to fight. America came late to both world wars."

This, is the latest war ever that we have joined. It has been long coming, and since you seem to have forgotten this fact, I will remind you of it. Do you remember 9/11? Maybe you should read up on some the acts of wars that have been made against the US dating back to the 70's by the Islamos. You pat yourself on the back way too much, Banks.

Hal: Robbie, do you think my tu tu is to tight?

Hal
Once again, I say you are a fraud if you served like you say and consider the military to be a place for death and destrucion and that no peace was ever obtained through it...Holy cow, You are absolutely deranged. How the hell could you have served honorably if you believe what you spew? How? The forebearers of this Country did nthing and it was all lies according to your interpreting!! Which is so skewed with LLS...my God, I am going to hurl. You flatter yourself and your nephew, halDelusional. Because even if he were part of a huge brigade there ain't no way that 60% follow his and your derangement.

RE: Loving the Military is Un-American 2
(3) Armchair social re-programmers have a great enthusiasm for keeping and maintaining uneducated and impoverished victims, as long as they don't have to do it themselves. A shrink could explain why.

(4) The liberals are a welfare state which looks after you not at all and gives you benefits without even ever working for them. For many of the more intelligent colored minorities and poor whites, it's a refuge from the world of competition. -They don't get into the front line (IQs too low) and are never in any real danger, but they can pose as heroes when they come home -[This is so offensive I can’t even demean liberals with an adjustment of it – other than to say of those who are Phony Soldiers, they tend to have a (D) behind their names when the truth is told].

The Founders dreaded the cult of war and the threat it posed to liberty, and so the Constitution did all it could to prevent large permanent forces being maintained on the citizen's dollar. War service was something patriots did in emergencies, not a profession. [Well sugar you might actually want to read the Constitution – as the 2nd Amendment addresses that very point – ‘A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State…’plus Article 2, Section 2 which gives the PRESIDENT the Commander-in-Chief Powers (and does NOT give it to Congress), not to mention specific instructions on equiping and maintaining a Military.] The Founders actually understood Democracy, Freedom, Liberty, the Military and obviously reality much better than today’s liberal – and you.

RE; Loving the Military is Un-American 1
Hey Banks:

I can think of several reasons why so-called liberals (the modern Democrat Party genus of fauxprogressives and neosocialists) profess hate for the military:

(1) There are several cities east of the Mississippi/Missouri that would be in a sad way without social program spending. Their people are government owned, many never work to enable them to obtain the maximum cradle to grave government entitlements available. These are socialistic badlands for "entitlement" teat-suckers.

(2) Directors of fat-cat services such as Unions and Welfare hate the military because the job and educational opportunities for all that undermine their insatiable appetite for new victims that keeps them rolling in Uncle Sam's money- without much Congressional oversight or the need to compete in a genuinely free market.

Hal D
Remember this moronic post from last night on Williams' thread made by you?


****************************
Hal Donahue writes: Wednesday, October, 10, 2007 9:15 PM
An awful lot of KKK folks even had businesscards that said who they were when I lived in SC
****************************


You never answered me: Was a picture of Robert "Sheets" Byrd used as their logo?



Good Vs Evil Is A Delusion
I have to agree with Mr. Martinez first statement. And this truism is what makes us a dangerous force in the world. Especially when back by "Bible believing Christians" who can clearly see Good and Evil, that Good triumphs over evil and there will always be wars. God is always on our side. Coupled with the world's strongest military - we become a dangerous force in the world. The delusion is we are always the good guys fighting for freedom.

Since WWII the US has involved itself in 240 countries directly or indirectly over throwing governments, funding death squads or supporting insurgencies. Am I to believe 100% of the time we were the good guys fighting for our ideals and freedoms in all of these ventures?

We are an industrial military complex with an imperialistic agenda to spread economic blackmail and access to resources. In the name of fighting communism, terrorism and spreading democracy and freedom, we engage in endless military adventures to protect our interests, war profiteering and sphere of influence. In doing so, our morals and values are compromised, rationalized and twisted as we talk about:

"The just war", "killing people to save lives", "torture people to save lives", "senseless violence vs non-senseless violence", "collateral damage", "funding of death squads", “assassinating world leaders" "Rendition" all in the name of promoting democracy, freedom and human rights.

We as a nation buy this propaganda that the government spins and the media reports as fact - for the simple reason we believe ourselves to be moral and good. We will not accept anything less from anyone. We do not open to any criticism either domestically (liberals hate America) or internationally.

This is our delusion. We are in denial of the great suffering we cause in the world. We are going to pay the price for these actions. The CIA calls it "blowback".


everyonesfacts
All three of my nephews will vote republican, and all three have been, and one still in Iraq. I guess every one has their own opinion.


Roberto: Hal, do you need to powder yourself now?

Hal
What f-ing military were you in? I'm sorry, I never felt I needed to condemn your SFB idea that we hated one for all,all for one. It's the first lesson you learn assshole, when weapons are supposed to be cleaned and returned to the arms room, and you are faster and better than your buddy. Are you gonna sit around while he struggles and take the cahnce you miss chow? Nope, we wanted to f-ing eat our chow. So we finish the job for the rest of the bunch. There is nothing wrong with that and I daresay you speak for your lousy self when you declare such a thing. The same rules do not apply in the civilian world. They just don't. In the military, I did watch my platoon's back, and they had mine. I would lay down and die for anyone of them, even now. You are a piece of work, LSFB Colonel,ret.

Hal
Hal you are such a pathetic little creature. It is a good thing you have Roberta Roberta to look after you and small warren. A quote from an Amazon review of Mr Martinez book.....
ALOT of people are responsible for my being alive today, but Martinez' actions that day started my long road to recovery, and I owe the man my life.

Buy this book!!! You won't be disappointed. It's about as raw and dirty as you can get from just reading a memoir. The Iraq War has never been so perfectly documented before. And it shows people that no matter what you did growing up, all the bad stupid mistakes you made, you can be a great person and achieve anything. Martinez is a true American hero, as well as my hero!" Maybe a few liberals could be rescued if they joined the service.
Roberta Roberta: Hal you are pitiful....
Hal: But, but, Roberta..... where's small warren i"ll bet he cares
yea Right!!

everyonesfacts
My nephew says that is how about 60% of his unit over there thinks

military voting
Don't be surprised if the military votes increasingly Democratic in the 2008 election.
Not the 60-40 split we've seen in most recent
elections.

Both my brothers in the military say that whoever
has the fastest plan to get out of Iraq will get
a lot of military votes - theirs too probably!

Any opinions?

svpallava
"Big difference though--unlike liberals, conservatives DON't cut away at military's needed materiel. "

They certainly do! Look at Bush's budget submission and not just for this year coming

SteveL
"Liberals are horrified by war"

Well I would hope everyone is horrifed by war. I know that I darn sure am. But that does not mean I am a pacifist by any stretch. I suspect Marco would agree with me.

QParker
" The socialist element that controls many facets of American life is committed to driving military people and military values into a pariah subculture."

The military IS a socialist culture by nearly any measure


For William
Neither have most liberals!

Big difference though--unlike liberals, conservatives DON't cut away at military's needed materiel.

Liberals are horrified by war
Liberals were not less supportive of the military till the U.S. invented the atomic bomb in 1945. That event got liberals, more than conservatives, thinking that military force had finally reached the point that it could destroy civilization altogether. And from that came a mindset that we have to cut the military down to size before it "drags" us into nuclear war.

Go read the newspaper accounts of the atomic bombing of Japan in the archives of the NY Times and elsewhere. As soon as the news broke that the U.S. had dropped an atomic bomb, even before Japan surrendered at V-J Day, there was already muttering from liberals and "progressive" clergy that America had committed a great sin and that we had now reached the stage that "if we don't end war, war will end us."

Ever since the atomic bombings of 1945, liberals have led the peace marches and the calls for unilateral disarmament of our military. Hollywood started making anti-military movies like "Doctor Strangelove" and "Seven Days in May," both of which had this antinuclear theme underlying them.

HalD
You should really take your meds before posting here.

Jaysson
"I used to support the military until I found out something 40% are democrats. it's no wonder we can't win in Iraq. These phony soldiers are screwing it up."

And to make matters worse the nuimber is increasing every day LMAO

Military gone downhill
I used to support the military until I found out something 40% are democrats. it's no wonder we can't win in Iraq. These phony soldiers are screwing it up.

To all,
Still trying to pull up Hal D's military service on line. His record shows up as much as his hero Kerry's does.

Talli2long, UncleB
Talli2long, I agree. Some liberals cannot grasp the fact that soldiers do have minds of their own...that they don't parrot the adminstration line...that they do think for themselves.

When liberals fail to grasp that, it indicates how contemptuous they view our soldiers.

Conversely, when conservatives cannot grasp the fact that our military men and women may not necessarily parrot the administration line, they too are guilty of the same condescension toward our military.

A "Military Times" poll conducted last December revealed significant differences of opinion among soldiers serving in Iraq on the question of Bush administration policy regarding the war.

Earth to UncleB: I am not a liberal. I have no use for universities refusing to permit ROTC on campus, or recruiting on campus.

Banks: staff writer for Comintern
That post was one of the most despicable collection of words that I have ever seen on this site. The military is unAmerican? That is pure revisionism. Your hatred for men and masculinity is evident as you portray those who serve in our military as members of an underclass. H-m-m? Doesn't his pose a problem for a communist like you? Doesn't your Marxism purport to champion the common man? I guess that the members of our military are too common for you. Go Back to MoveOn.

Marlin Newburn
Don't forget to pass the word too that military veterans many who served in Iraq were elected last election to Congress as Demopcrats. Carney, Murphy, Seztak, Webb shall I go on? You conservatives abandoned the military when you failed to question your leader Bush


Hal D:
writes
"They love the military pomp and history but they really do hate the soldier."
Hal, you are simply a moron!