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Wednesday, December 12, 2007
Maggie Gallagher :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is America "Under God"?
by Maggie Gallagher
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Thank God for Mitt Romney's "Faith in America" speech.

It's given Americans a solid week's break from the urgent task of sifting through Obama's kindergarten papers, Mitt's landscaper hiring practices or Rudy's views on whether presidential mistresses deserve the same Secret Service protection as wives, to consider one of the most fundamental of American questions: What is the role of faith in our political system?

Romney's surprisingly controversial answer? "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. ... Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone."

Amid the general chorus of praise for Romney's tribute to America's "symphony of faith," this statement struck many (including conservatives) as a false note. National Review's Ramesh Ponnuru was first to take Romney to task for failing to include nonbelievers in our national orchestra, but the same riff soon appeared from columnists as diverse as E.J. Dionne and Peggy Noonan.

"But does freedom require religion? Is religion always conducive to freedom? Does freedom not also thrive in far more secular societies than our own? Isn't the better course for our nation to seek solidarity among lovers of liberty, secular as well as religious?" asked Dionne in The Washington Post.

Good questions. As it happens, last week a three-judge panel from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals was considering a version of the same questions: What the heck is God doing on our coins and in the Pledge of Allegiance that's recited by public schoolchildren?

"This is not a case of people who believe in God versus people who do not believe in God," Dr. Michael Newdow, our national village atheist, told the court. "It's a case of people who believe in treating people equally and people who believe in not treating people equally."

Of course, for Newdow, fairness means atheists like him get what they want, and theists do not, but put that aside for the really serious question asked by U.S. Circuit Judge Stephen Reinhardt during oral arguments: "If you took God out of the Pledge, would it be any less patriotic?"

Our Constitution explicitly endorses the right to religious liberty, which includes the right to be an atheist. Where, if at all, then, does God fit into our political order? Does freedom really require religion, and if so, in what sense?

Romney offers two answers. The less important was vintage John Adams: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion."

The empirical difficulty with this argument is that market democracy seems pretty good at channeling human passions into relatively innocuous pastimes. European secular societies are at least as good as America at fostering bourgeois order. But will a people who do not believe their society has a transcendent dimension summon the energy to sacrifice their sons -- or their sex life --for the sake of the future? Can a secular society unwilling to make war or babies long endure? I wish Europe well, but the answer is not yet clear.

The deeper answer Romney gave is this one: "We are a nation 'Under God' and in God, we do indeed trust."

He continued: "I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from the God who gave us liberty."

The reason God is on our coins and in our Pledge is not that He is practically necessary to democratic liberty, but rather that He is the philosophical foundation of it. Our rights come from a sphere outside the reach of the state. Government may or may not recognize our rights, but it can never repeal them.

For better or for worse, this is truly the faith of our fathers -- yours, mine, Mitt Romney's and Michael Newdow's. Will we remain true to it?

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About The Author

Maggie Gallagher is a nationally syndicated columnist, a leading voice in the new marriage movement and co-author of The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially.

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Inalienable Human Rights
"Our rights come from a sphere outside the reach of the state. Government may or may not recognize our rights, but it can never repeal them."

Believing that our rights come from God or some other objective source may be desirable and even effective at enforcing those rights, but just saying it doesn't make it so. Governments have been allowed to repeal individual rights from the dawn of civilization through today, even here in the US of A.

While human rights may be no more than social contracts between individuals, it doesn't mean they are any less meaningful.

Maggie asks "But will a people who do not believe their society has a transcendent dimension summon the energy to sacrifice their sons -- or their sex life --for the sake of the future?"

I suggest she visit any national cemetery and count all of the headstones bearing the atheist symbol. It does not require the belief in any transcendent dimension to sacrifice for what one believes in.

Where are we in History
Certainly, historically the Christian religion has
not really been pro-freedom, especially if you look
at the Catholic Church. I happen to be reading a
book on slavery right now and many people in the
south were absolutely sure that God was on their
side and that the North would rot in hell.

Not much has changed actually with some. There are
still those who believe that Christian principles
should be upheld while others beliefs or rights
should be abolished.

But I think in the end that democracy, in whatever format people want to call it (every time I say the word democracy there is some guy who has to call me to task - do give me a break, this time, please) has taken hold in the Western World so very well because of the Christian religion. It is true that we have had to grow into it. It values the individual; it values the weak and the poor and the females in ways that not all religions do. And certainly not everyone
in our society values those things today.

The poor are called lazy, the females are called
nazi feminists, the weak are disposible or better
yet, cheap labor.

Just as we have grown into it, we can also grow
out of it. And that is a very scary thing.

No. What a stupid question.
Nuff said.

PC is tiresome
It's hard to see how being politicallly correct makes Newdow's life more pleasant, or how he is harmed if the country as a majority wants the word "God" in public. It's our history and he should bug off, along with the 9th Circuit!

Now, since this subject arises in the election season, and a couple of candidates are entangled in it, how about a cheer for Fred Thompson, who long ago just noted that he is partial to a mainline Christian denomination (horrors- that word relating to a deity). He left the issue there and has since centered on what he would do to return the country to conservative values. Plus, I've seen no reports of scandal in his history and his economic ideas are right on.

Irony
Newdow claims there is no God; but our rights, including freedom of speech, are attributed to being an endowment from God in our Constitution. If he doesn't believe in God, does he also believe he has no right to speak? Without God, from wence does his right to speak eminate?

Newdow isn't an atheist, he's an anti-religious zealot. The two are not the same. An atheist believes there is no God, and if someone else believes differently, it makes no differerence to the atheist. The anti-religious zealot claims there is no God, and works assiduously to remove Him from all aspects of the lives of others. Why would a rational person work assiduously to remove something they claim does not exist? That isn't disbelief, that's forcing others to agree with you. I don't believe in the Easter Bunny, but I'm not wasting my time trying to silence those that do.

Check out Dinesh D'Sousas current article on this topic.

2008?
It is certainly a stretch to claim that the country has been talking about "the Speech" for a "solid week." I would suggest that less than two or three percent of the public has spent more than five minutes pondering Romney's old thoughts about "faith in America."

A lack of personal responsibility is at the core of our social problems. The very fact that you can have perfectly responsible people who have no faith disproves the necessity of religion. This isn't to say that religion is bad or that it should be done away with. I don't believe that. Faith gives millions of people tremendous comfort. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Now, what on earth does any of this have to do with who we are going to elect in 2008?

Once again Lemonade,
You have it backwards.

"The poor are called lazy, the females are called
nazi feminists, the weak are disposible or better
yet, cheap labor."

We call those who really are lazy, lazy. We call man-hating women feminazi's. Those who don't have these qualities needn't be offended since it doesn't apply to them. You act as if these people do not exist. Just because someone is poor, or female, or black, or Hispanic, they can never do wrong and are always oppressed is the way people like you think. As for disposing of the weak, you really are clueless. 1,000,000 babies a year, ignoramus.

Was Romney to invite the tone-deaf to
audition for the "Tabernacle Choir?"

Seriously, folks--he was not speaking to "atheists" & "agnostics," as who would think they would be interested in his religious beliefs!?

Do Atheists Have Place In America?
I do believe in God and think our Country was based on faith in God. With that said, nothing in the constitution forces anyone to believe in any particular religion or be forced to believe in God. Do we really want to be a theocracy like Iraq?

TPM-A spokesman for the Mitt Romney campaign is thus far refusing to say whether Romney sees any positive role in America for atheists and other non-believers, after Election Central inquired about the topic yesterday

It’s a sign that Romney may be seeking to submerge evangelical distaste for Mormonism by uniting the two groups together in a wider culture war. Romney’s speech has come under some criticism, even from conservatives like David Brooks and Ramesh Ponnuru, for positively mentioning many prominent religions but failing to include anything positive about atheists and agnostics.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/romney-faith-speec h




ct
"We call those who really are lazy, lazy. We call man-hating women feminazi's"

Yes, indeedy. You have everyone pegged just
right.

Another reason America needs God
Belief in God also means we believe in the Word of God. Very important are the Ten Commandments.

Democracy cannot survive if we don't obey those commandments.

It used to be that the citizens and politicians believed "Thou shall not bear false witness".

Atheists and secularists do not believe there is such a thing as truth. Their philosophy has spread throughout our society - even into our churches.

In our courts, people swear to tell the truth. Yet, any attorney will tell you that oath means nothing these days. People no longer have fear of God or man's laws concerning perjury. It's rarely ever prosecuted as it would clog the courts.

The media has repeatedly borne false witness - just turn on CBS, ABC, NBC, etc. any hour and you can see it. Forget the Internet. No way to find truth there. It's hidden under too big a pile of crap.

Take a look at our "representatives" in Congress. "We've lost the war..."?

And, now we have an election to select the most powerful person in the world. With the TRUTH a casualty in our society, people can't even see how candidates like Romney use money to distort the facts about his opponents. The People are so used to False Witness they can no longer recognize it when it is right in front of them.

God is extremely important to holding our society together. If TRUTH is cast out, God has been cast out of our country. An honest man doesn't stand a chance any more.

A nation cannot serve God and mammon. We've chosen mammon. We've turned our society over to Wall Street and the Romney's of the world. Too bad for us.



Here are the Reps. who voted ramadan
a special honor but refused to vote a Congressonal acknowledgement of Christianity and Christmas.

Christmas is a national federal vacation day.

Ramadan is a Muslim month-long observance relative to less than 1 percent of the US population, yet the House voted recognition of Ramadan a month ago.

The following refused to do the same for Christmas and Christianity (followed by up to 86% of Americans--NBC poll).

Rep. Gary Ackerman

Rep. Yvette Clarke

Rep. Diane DeGette

Rep. Alcee Hastings

Rep. Barbara Lee

Jim McDermott

Robert Scott

Pete Stark

Lynn Woolsey

Those who voted “present” instead of against

Hon Conyers

Barney Freank

Rush Holt

Jan Shakowsky

Debbie Wasserman Schultz

Peter Welch

John Yarmuth

Write them at: 2243 Rayburn House
Office Building
House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515






But is it true?
I think not. To say that our rights are given us by God is to make human experience, human growth, development and discovery meaningless. If God made Bush president, for instance, why should we vote?

God and government
Gallagher says: "Of course, for Newdow, fairness means atheists like him get what they want, and theists do not." I'm not particularly a fan of Newdow's, but so far as I know he is not advocating we put on our coins "In God We Do Not Trust." Nor am I aware that he is advocating that atheists should get special tax breaks instead of churches. Gallagher is so steeped in her own bigotry that she's unable to smell it.

It's one thing to vacuously assert that God is the philosophical foundation of our rights, but quite another to demonstrate it. Gallagher doesn't even attempt it. I won't hold my breath waiting for an intelligent explanation of whose rights the biblical God was respecting when he destroyed cities, caused floods, slaughtered first-born infants, etc., whenever he felt "dissed" by his own creations.

Religion and government should be kept as far apart as possible. No penalties, but no special favors either. You'd think believers would be the first to proclaim their God is strong enough to stand up on his own.

To Proud Liberal
"To say that our rights are given us by God is to make human experience, human growth, development and discovery meaningless."

Not in the least. Our human experience and development are evident in the progress some societies have made in extending those rights to each other regardless of differences of color, language, religion, etc.
The fact that, after so many centuries of human development, enormous swathes of humanity still think members of the Other group or tribe deserve no consideration at all, proves that flawed humans cannot and will not attain the perfection those ideals represent.

Conservatism = Religious Orthodoxy
Ms. Gallagher rightly criticizes those who continue to maintain the liberal fantasy that the US should accomodate nonbelievers and secularists. As a liberal, I believe in the fantasy, but I call it a fantasy because that's how conservatives who understand their ideology should view it. Correctly understood, conservatism is virtually identical with religious orthodoxy. In the US this orthodoxy is Christian, but the general orientation of any religious orthodoxy is conservative.

True conservatives cannot really be secularists and nonbelievers any more than they can really be libertarians. Conservatism is the political ideology that calls for government to maintain the religious values of the majority of Americans. Once this is understood, Ms. Gallagher's position follows automatically.

Proud Liberal
"To say that our rights are given us by God is to make human experience, human growth, development and discovery meaningless. If God made Bush president, for instance, why should we vote?"

This misses the point. That our rights come from God means that no man can take those rights away.

Human growth, development and discovery are results of the machinations of man, not God, and are meaningful or not based on the judgement of men. President Bush was elected by men, not appointed by God.

That in no way refutes the assertion that our rights are bestowed to us by God and cannot be taken away by men. Rights and Acheivements are two entirely different things; your argument is a non-sequitor.


Reason
You are absolutely correct, what does any of this have to do with the next election? Our elite politicians only care about power in any case, and their respect for God is pretty much a joke. Even Hillary has been seen wearing a cross, so what.

The two parties have way too much power and that is a real problem, not whether our money has "In God We Trust" on it. This hold on power has allowed them to intrude into every aspect of our lives, engage in partisanship rather than provide any leadership, and in the long run is doing greater harm to those freedoms we all care about.

If anyone is interested in a more complete look at how the elites have accrued this power to themselves, and how we have been duped into voting the lesser of two evils every election, I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG. Check it out, why not? The elites have already stolen our birthright and mortgaged our childrens future. Are we ever going to stand up and reclaim what is rightfully ours? Thanks, Joe

Nonsense
The debate on what should and shouldn't be on US currency is silly.


While I am quite sure that someone will disagree with what I am about to state it comes from a common sense approach.

Atheist: No-one, not one solitary atheist, has ever or will ever be harmed from "In God We Trust" on the coin of the realm. No atheist has ever converted to Christianity after gazing at a bill. Furthermore if it bothers you that much I am quite sure that you could get by without cash. So just stop it.

Theist: No-one, not one solitary believer, would question his faith because "In God We Trust" wasn't on the coin of the realm. Young children would not turn to atheism because it was removed, churches would not shut down. God would not look poorly on us .
So just stop it.

Conclusion: Leave it alone, if it makes no difference one way or another then just leave it be.


Worship and Faith
Those inclined to believe in a God worship the creator and believe by faith.

Those inclined to reject the existance of God, worship the creation and believe by faith.

Neither side can prove they are right. Evidence exists for boths concepts. But the behavior of both groups is virtually identical, except for one trait. People without a belief in a higher power then themselves, feel threatened by people who are comforted by a superior, transcendent power. Non-believers seek to eradicate evidence of believers God in the public arena No such behaviour is exhibited by believers. Why?

A fine balance
Joseph Bottum did an excellent job of positioning freedom and religion, explaining (I believe) why religion has been so important to the Great American Experiment: "The United States as it naturally wants to be - what we might call the platonic ideal of America - contains a tension we must be careful not to resolve. From its founding, the nation has always been something like a school of Enlightenment rationalists aswim in an ocean of Christian faith... In other words, the Bible may help produce the ethics a modern state needs to assume in its citizens if it is to allow them freedom." Remove the Enlightenment, and you have the unthinking theocracy that the Left fears; remove the Christianity, and you have unbridled self interest run amok (and a lack of common moral values). Either one is the end of freedom as we know it.

renny
Getting national holiday status is better than getting a Congressional recognition. Is your point that while government priviliges Christianity over Islam, it doesn't do so by enough for your tastes?

rights
The interesting thing about rights is that there tends to be two basic understanding of them and Conservatives tend to take a strong stance on each side depending on the context.

One is that the rights we have come from the founding fathers. In the strongest version of this, like one gets from Robert Bork, they should be understood in the most limited fashion possible, so if it says speech it does not apply to anyting but what is spoken, extending it to expression goes beyond the right the founders gave us.

The other is that rights come from nature or from God, and that the founders were just trying to capture preexisting laws. On this view the attempts to read the rights as narrowly as possible makes no sense because it makes nature arbitrary rather than rational. Clearly the founders had this second view or they wouldn't have given us the 9th Amendment. And many of them believed in a God who was not distinct from nature, so for them the distinction between coming from God and nature breaks down, so Jefferson's sense of where rights come from is not much different than the atheists.

But the point I made above is that when conservatives want to establish this is a Christian or Judeo-Christian nation, they do so by pointing primarily to this second understanding of rights, because it is the best evidence they have. But when they come to how the rights should be applied, they generally switch to the first understanding because it more often gives them the results they want.

A man
WITHOUT CONVICTION OR CLARITY ON PUBLIC POLICY OR HOW HIS FAITH INFLUENCES HIS POLICY IS UNELECTABLE IN A GENERAL ELECTION......and this was kerry when the media was in love with him, Imagine Romney as a republican trying to make the case for his unclear record and lack of honesty that his religion will influence his policy making (don't bother telling people it won't, because americans are more intelligent than that!). 1992 a Clinton presidency determined by 43% of the voters - De ja Vu!! Republicans please think, think, and think past the designer suits, business accomplishments and family pictures of Romney .... he is unpredictable as a president - THINK ALREADY!!!

Sarah the hate monger
Never get enough divisiveness, do you old girl?

What atheists Forget
Where has there ever been a civilization with Freedom, as we have, that began and survived without a clear set of morals?

Those people with those morals, (obtained from a source outside themselves, from God), are the definition of Religion.

As soon as past civilizations which began well, because they had morals for governing themselves, forgot their religion (their morals) then came their downfall.

Define: Religion - a society of people who espouse morals

Wasn't it George Washington
who said "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible."

Answer: Yes.

That doesn't mean all must be forced to believe, go to church, forego the pleasures of the fruit of the vine or of playing cards, dancing and movies, but that we must not push God out of the public arena on the basis that some few are offended by His presence, whether on a dollar bill or in the opening prayers of Congress and the SCOTUS.

The First Amendment guarantees the right of all to express their belief or lack thereof. In any public prayer, it is simply understood that the God so named means different things to different people, all under the generic "God", to be addressed in every individual's own mind in his own way, *or not*, just as you wish. He is not defined in a sectarian manner in the First Amendment for precisely that reason.

So what on earth is all the fuss about?

Lesson for Michael
1.There has never been a society with our freedoms so your hypotehtical is meaningless.

2.There's no requirement that morals equate with religion. Probably the opposite.

3.No society has ever lasted forever.

Iagree -- you should be challenged
I guess you think, what, you need to be punched in the face to get hurt? Despite the clear meaning of the CONSTITUTION atheists endure this nonsense on currency. Why do you all love that so much? Because you can always say, get over it, no biggie, no one was hurt. It's illegal.

carbondu5
Please provide a quote from any contemporary evangelical Christian calling for the establishment of a theocracy (ecclesiatic-based government). Otherwise, you're just an adolscent rooster crowing at midnight.

No Christians I know want to live in a theocracy. Many congregationists structure our churches along democratic lines, so we evidently don't even want a theocracy in our churches.

The larger picture
In a democracy (or democratic republic), it is right or proper for a small fraction of the population to infringe upon the religious liberty of a much larger segment of the population?

Michael Newdow would say "yes". When he first began his campaign against the pledge, his ex-wife shared letters he'd written to her declaring that he would stamp out religious freedom in this country because he doesn't like it that she is a Christian and that their daughter, whom he used to advance his suit, is also.

I can't help returning to the words of the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator ...."

Some would like to say that is religious rhetoric we no longer need in this country. Are you absolutely sure of that? Remember, the Enlightenment spawned two revolutions in the 1700s. One, espousing that opening statement of the D of I, turned out pretty good. There were few atrocities committed against foreign enemies and there's this government that's been around now for more than two centuries. On the other hand, the French Revolution was an entirely secular revolution that sought to take away from the churches (among many other things). Look how well that turned out! Baskets full of heads, civil war, disaster on every turn and a dictatorship to follow. Has France had a stable government since it overthrew the monarchy and most religious restraint? Hmm, well, not to the extent that the US has had since it overthrew the monarchy, but allowed religion to continue to influence thought and ethics.

So, maybe the religious rhetoric wasn't a horrible thing afterall and maybe it might still be a healthy influence in our world today. The history of Christian influence in the United States would indicate our system works best with some moderation from God.

Christian American Democracy
Aurorawatecher seems unaware that our founding fathers modeled our constitutional government on the Presbyterian governing model and on other tenants of Christian belief.

Presbyterian had three offices, Preachers, Elders and Deacons, each with roles and responsibilities defined well before the Constitution was adopted.

They knew that men would need checks and balances to keep power from accumulating in one branch because the nature of man includes sin.

They argued long and hard over the Bill of Rights. Not whether these rights came from God, but whether listing them would allow government to attack those not listed.

Remember the Declaration of Independence is the 'Why;' the Constitution the 'How'

randomthoughts writes:
"Aurorawatecher seems unaware that our founding fathers modeled our constitutional government on the Presbyterian governing model and on other tenants of Christian belief."

Most historians credit The Elightenment, specifically the Frenchman Charles de Secondat, baron de Montesquieu, and his "trias politica", as the source of our three branches of government. While the Presbyterian Church has three levels of officers, their function and independence are nothing like the separation of powers laid out in our Constitution.

reply to aurorawatcher
What do you think of R.J. Rushdoony's view of theocracy? He's certainly as conservative as any TH Christian, probably more so, and so I would think you would be sympathetic to his views. Here's a sample:


"For Christians, theocracy must be the normal pattern of all government, in every sphere of government, because God alone is Lord or sovereign."

http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/article.php?ArticleID=272 6

I think Rushdoony was willing to articulate clearly what many, perhaps most, evangelicals really think about this issue, but fear to state openly. Comments?

'Fairness'
"Of course, for Newdow, fairness means atheists like him get what they want, and theists do not"

As has already been pointed out, this is nonsense. Newdow is not requesting that 'There is no God' is put into the Pledge.
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