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Wednesday, January 16, 2008
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hating Free Enterprise
by John Stossel
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Why are so many people so hostile to free markets?

Markets provide miracles that we take for granted. Clean, well-lighted supermarkets sell 30,000 products. Starvation has largely vanished from countries where private property and economic freedom are permitted. Free markets have rescued more people from poverty than government ever has.

And yet, when innovators propose extending this benign power, people shriek in fear.

This was clear reading The Wall Street Journal not long ago.

The "Letters" section led with complaints about Bob Poole's column on well-maintained private highways that keep traffic moving. One writer complained that such highways exist for "the privileged who can afford surprisingly large fees to drive a very boring 45 minutes around metropolitan Toronto. Highway 407 is certainly a great success -- for its bondholders."

Surprisingly large fees? Only if you are clueless about what you pay for "free" roads. And why is success for the bondholders a bad thing? Is the writer envious? If the ride is boring, he doesn't need to take it. No one forces anyone to use a private highway. Why do so many begrudge the successes that voluntary private exchanges bring?

That same day's Journal also included a story on the "radical" idea of kidney selling.

Why is selling an organ "radical"? Banning the sale of kidneys kills thousands of people a year. That should be considered "radical."

Today, 74,000 Americans wait for kidney transplants while enduring painful, exhausting and expensive hours hooked up to dialysis machines. The machines are technological miracles that keep many alive, but dialysis is not nearly as good as a real kidney. Every day, about 17 Americans die while waiting for a transplant.

Yet plenty of Americans would give up a kidney if they could just be paid for their trouble and risk. Ruth Sparrow of St. Petersburg, Fla., ran a newspaper ad saying: "Kidney, runs good, $30,000 or best offer." She told "20/20" that she got a couple of serious calls, but then the newspaper refused to run her ad again, warning her that she might be arrested.

Why isn't someone with two healthy organs allowed to put one on the market? Because in 1984, U.S. Rep. Al Gore sponsored a law making the sale of organs punishable by five years in jail. Congress couldn't contain its enthusiasm; the bill passed 396 to 6.

So giving someone a kidney is a good deed, but selling the same kidney is a felony.

When I confronted Dr. Brian Pereira of the National Kidney Foundation about that, he said, "The current system functions extremely well." I asked him how the system could be working "extremely well" when 17 people die every day because they can't get kidneys. He said that the "desperate (situation) doesn't justify an unwise policy decision."

The Kidney Foundation fears that poor people would be "exploited." But what gives the foundation the right to decide for poor people? The poor are as capable as others of deciding what trade-offs to make in life. No one forces them to give up an organ. To say the poor are too desperate to resist a dangerous temptation is patronizing.

But gatekeepers like Dr. Pereira say there should be "no barter, no sale of organs. That's where we have to step in." When I asked him who that "we" is that has the right to "step in," he replied, "The government (and) the professional societies."

That conceit -- that the government and "professional societies" must decide for all of us, and the underlying hostility toward commerce -- kills people.

Money shouldn't make giving up an organ suspect. As one kidney patient told me before he died, "The doctors make money, the hospitals make money, the organ procurement organizations make money. Everybody gets something except for the donor!"

If you think it's immoral to sell an organ, don't do it. But sick people shouldn't have to die because some people despise markets.

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About The Author
John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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Giving up choice
Not sure when our society decided that giving up our personal freedom of choice was a good idea; that others were responsible somehow for our personal welfare and that accountability to the individual was given absolution.

Freedom of choice to place your dollars where it enriches your life is an individual's greatest empowerment to self and society.

Frankly, I tire of having to pay taxes so that others can live their personal lives without accountability.

I'm more than willing to pay tax dollars to support a collective military - no problem

Other than military I can think of no other program or institution for which my dollars are being allocated that I would support

If you want a service, pay for it

If you want education at any level - pay for it. If you are an adult who wants a child, then pay for your child's education - why are you laying that burden on society at large?

If you are asking society to pay your way in any capacity you are subverting personal accountability.

Enjoy your rationalizing and platitudes of the "greater good" but it's a sham and a scam to take from others for that which you are not willing to supply for yourself.

After all, isn't that what Independence is really all about; being independent of others.

TANSTAAFL
" If it moves, tax it. If it keeps on moving, regulate it. If it ever stops moving subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

This is the liberal approach to "free" enterprise.

TANSTAAFL- There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. All the "Free" governemt programs are paid for by the people. All businesses charge back to the customer all government expenses. They do it in an egalitarian manner. Rich and poor alike pay for these government programs.

Which brings me to the "Taxholm Syndrome". Just as in the "Stockholm Syndrome" there is a psychological response by abductees towards their kidnappers to show loyalty and sympathy to the kidnappers, so too with the "Taxholm Syndrome". As citizens we are grateful for the government aid that is bestowed on us by our congressional benefactors. My point is that if you didn't take the money in the first place you would not have to give it back. But if you didn't control the money you would have no power.

Would Americans vote if there was no money involved ? I suspect most would not.

Which brings me back to TANSTAAFL.

Tibby

As usual, a provocative column ...
John Stossell presents stories and ideas that make his readers and viewers think, to question "conventional wisdom."

I've said before, he has this beat almost entirely to himself. More journalists need to emulate Stoessell and challenge shaky CW. We'd have a better informed, higher-thinking population if this were the case.


Gestell - - -
"NOr am I gettiing into the organ sale debate."

Then why are you here? That's the whole point of this column! That's what we're talking about!



"All I'm trying to get you to do is recognize some very basic aspects of human society."

The straw is really flying today. Nobody is denying any sort of thing.

Indeed, if you want to talk about denying the basic aspects of human society, let's talk about socialism for a minute; an economic system that works just fine, so long as everyone suppresses their natural selfishness.


"This seems too much of a stretch, I guess, which confirms my already low expectations of analytical acumen among free market theorists."

Welcome to our Mutual Lack of Admiration Society (M.L.A.S.). In other words, we think you're stupid too.

heh!
"Classical or neo-classical economics has its uses, but only when" ... it doesn't get in the way of our liberal agenda ...

Sorry, pal
Thanks for proving my point about poor research skills. Stopping at the first point that neither proves your point nor undermines mine is NOT research. The point that we have been making is that there are ample examples of successful private sector solutions to these problems. That a non-comprehensive volunteer firefighter organization sucks at the public teat is not indicative of all volunteers and has nothing to do with the completely private National Wildfire Suppression Association that you could have learned about if you could do some REAL research.

What is devastating to your case is the presence of private sector solutions for fire protection, education, postal services. etc. despite the HUGE taxpayer subsidies that, IF the publicly provided services were adequate to the tax, shoul have full monopoly status and exclude alternatives in the marketplace. But in each of those examples, the publicly provided services have proved to be both inadequate and universally inferior to the privately provided services.

Private schools uniformly produce dramatically superior results for less money; private sector firefighting (with no reliance upon the public teat) is at least a billion dollar a year business, public charity is a disaster that has INCREASED poverty and the postal service couldn't possibly compete in the private sector without a legally enforced monopoly.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but NONE of your points have held up (and your understanding of ecoomic principles and the "basic aspects of human society" ... isn't understanding at all).

reply to Unca Alby
I'm probably making a big mistake in actually taking you and Fletch at your words. You folks have been saying that economic transactions do not need any sort of governmental framework or cultural support. I'm not even trying to make arguments for any of those conservative bugbaboos like "regulation" or "welfare." NOr am I gettiing into the organ sale debate. All I'm trying to get you to do is recognize some very basic aspects of human society. This seems too much of a stretch, I guess, which confirms my already low expectations of analytical acumen among free market theorists. You guys just took that first chapter in the introductory microeconomics textbook at face value and never looked once at the real world beyond it. Too bad.
Classical or neo-classical economics has its uses, but only when its conditions are adequately understood. For too many believers in the free market, the conceptual structure of economics is mistakenly seen as an empirical description of the world.

Selling body parts
It is amazing that the poor should be protected from selling their body parts but allow to kill the baby inside themselve because that is a constitutional right. Just shows how irrational liberals are. Common sense is an uncommon virtue to them.

And another thing --
What this public funding for firefighting at the federal level means is that the good citizens of Louisiana and Florida get to pay for Californians' predisposition to live in fire-prone areas.

I'm sure they'd much rather have Californians' money to pay for levees and -- hmmm -- what DO you do to fight hurricanes?

You know how I handle fire-prone areas? Flood zones? Tornado zones? Hurricane zones? I don't live in them. I do live in earthquake country, but I do so accepting those risks. I'm not asking Bush to sign legislation to make me whole because I'm stupid enough to live here without buying my own insurance.

This makes utterly no sense whatsoever. If Californians want to live in a tinder box, that's their business. The rest of the nation should have no say in subsidizing that. Just like if Louisianans want to live below sea level, and Floridians want to live in Hurricane Alley, that should be their own responsibility, not that of the rest of the nation.

That makes as much sense as the people of South Texas paying the heating bills for the people of Alaska. If the folks in Alaska can't afford to pay for heat, they should move to Arizona.

And it hardly matters at any rate. Show me the clause in the Constitution that authorizes funding for firefighters. That authority belongs to the local governments, and if Bush had the cajones (which we all know he doesn't), he'd have vetoed that bill.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that happens when we diverge from Free Market principles. These days nobody is responsible for their own livelihood. The whole nation has to buy band-aids because some moron in Podunk scrapes his knee.

Gestell - - on Sucking Up Federal Money
"I went to the site of the National Volunteer Fire Council, clearly a professional (i.e., lobbying) organization for volunteer fire-fighters and departments. And guess what, I found out that these folks are sucking down federal funds!"

So what? So is McDonald’s. They’re at the federal teat to pay for international advertising. So therefore you want the government in charge of making hamburgers?

The fact remains that you do NOT need government to have firefighters. This is proven both in historical examples and in modern day examples. That firefighters (like too many others) have discovered "free" money from the government is not relevant to that fact.

Gestell - - - on Strawmen Governments
"The only “societies” that exist without government are in places like Somalia. If you want to see society without government, there's a fine example."

Wal*Mart must have a special sale on strawman packages, because they're certainly in abundance today.

Let's see where we've gone so far:

1. Stossel writes a column advocating a free market for the sale of organs.

2. Those of us of the libertarian persuasion agree. We try to correct the mistakes of those who are for the status-quo.

3. From this, randomthoughts thinks we want to legalize slavery.

4. Then further, Gestell thinks we want to eliminate government altogether and completely.

Oy, I got a headache.


"Wherever human societies have existed, there has been some sort of entity [...] that settles disputes, mobilizes resources for purposes of defense, keeps the irrigation systems going (ancient China and Egypt), builds and maintains the roads and aqueducts (Rome), and lots more."

And so, therefore, the sale of human organs should be verboten? People should just suck it up and die? Is that what you’re trying to say?

I will agree that there have always been government, a totally and completely irrelevant point. However, you must admit that the societies which prospered MOST did so with the LEAST amount of government.

Witness the difference between North and South Korea.

more to Fletch
I did some research, and look what I found. I went to the site of the National Volunteer Fire Council, clearly a professional (i.e., lobbying) organization for volunteer fire-fighters and departments. And guess what, I found out that these folks are sucking down federal funds! Here’s part of a description of their latest accomplishment:

"On December 20, President Bush signed H.R. 2764, legislation making appropriations for all federal agencies except the Department of Defense for FY 2008. Included in the bill was funding for the Assistance to Firefighters Grant (AFG) and Staffing for Adequate Fire and Emergency Response (SAFER) Grant programs. AFG received a $13 million increase to $560 million while SAFER was funded at $190 million, an increase of more than 65 percent.
AFG and SAFER provide funding directly to fire departments and nonprofit EMS agencies for apparatus, equipment, training, staffing, and recruitment and retention of volunteers. Fire service representatives work closely with the Department of Homeland Security to ensure that the most deserving grant applications are funded. The funding and effectiveness of AFG and SAFER are the NVFC’s top legislative priority.
H.R. 2764 provides the United States Fire Administration (USFA) with $43.3 million, an increase of approximately $2 million. USFA offers training and education for emergency services personnel and the public. USFA also performs research and collects data specific to the fire service and fire service activities. The long-term health of USFA and its National Fire Academy are critical to the fire service."

As a liberal, I have no problem with all of this, but conservatives should be ashamed. What kind of free market volunteers lap up the taxpayer’s money at the public trough?

reply to SJ Doc
Certainly you're correct: conservatives should (and many do) favor the abolition of public education in all its forms. In this belief, conservatives show that they are not really dedicated to maintaining American traditions, for surely universal public education developed in the US. Some people (now I guess only liberals) believe it was, and is, of enormous benefit to our society. Public education began in the colonial period and continued after national independence, taking off in the 19th century., For conservatives this is all an unmitigated horror show, so they began following Milton Friedman's line and calling for an end to what Friedman first started calling "government schools." Of course, Friedman wanted to get conservatives to regard American public schools with the same hostility they rightly directed at the government schools of 20th century totalitarian regimes. Now conservatives really can't see any differences between those schools and the locally funded schools in our communities.

One last time - 2
“How big are any of these towns that have completely volunteer fire departments, and in how many examples have the call fire-fighters provided (either building or paying for, out of their own pockets) the fire station? How many examples can you give of volunteer fire companies paying for their own equipment?”

You keep coming back to the size of the township as if it has any relevance to the issue whatsoever. If a single example can be made in a township of any size (and there are plenty) then the point is made. If you wish a real world example, consider that the original fire companies were created by insurance companies in response to the basic incentive of protecting their investments. Today – as in “right now” –AIG (one of the country’s largest property insurers – employs literally hundreds of such completely private “Wildfire Protection Units” in more than 150 zip codes across the United States. Some of these independent fir companies were active in saving homes during the recent California wildfires. More than 10,000 PRIVATE firefighters are now members of the largest organization of such individuals in the country.

The only thing “hypothetical” at this point is any expectations with regard to your ability to do basic research.

One last time - 1
Gestell, while complaining that the free market responses are merely “hypothetical”, your assertions about what real world conditions are (and what the conservative or free market position is) get more and more absurd with each successive post.

The statement about the conservative position being to abolish school sports is a perfect example. Quite the contrary, there is more than ample demand for scholastic level sporting activities in the marketplace. Bob’s example demonstrates how the public school system – run by government and, as a result, being vastly inefficient – so poorly handles the funds entrusted to its care that it would make such a decision in the first place (without taking into consideration the desires of the consumer) and then realize that they, of course, had not even taken into consideration the consequences of the action.

bob - regarding your school facilities
--
When those responsible for administering the properties of your former (government owned and run) high shool sold off the sports fields as you'd mentioned, it is not necessarily (as Gestell implies) that it was a sound "capitalistic" business decision (for *NOTHING* done by a government agency can be considered "capitalistic" by the very definition of government action) but rather that the government officers with the power to make that decision were responding to incentives other than those which were best for the administration of your former school.

This is a major fault of government-run activities of *ALL* kinds.

The primary objective of effectively every public office-holder is to get and keep the highest possible position of government power and prestige he can attain.

With that in mind, any long-term benefit to his community is of secondary (or lower) priority.

Just as we criticize the corporate executive officers in the megacorporations for their short-term fixations upon inflated quarterly and annual statements' impacts upon their perq packages, we have to recognize that the malevolent government office-holder is both steeply inclined and almost certainly *GOING* to make decisions that do damage to his community.

And, contrary to Gestell, a "genuine conservative" holds that government has no goddam business running school systems in the first place.

An institution for the use of violent force against "enemies foreign and domestic" running a babysitting-and-indoctrination system?

What the hell?

--

No "unthinking" here
The only "societies" that exist without government are in places like Somalia. If you want to see society without government, there's a fine example. My point is not to say that everything governments do is wonderful, but to make a factual claim, backed up by history, that without a functioning government the result is an anarchy very few people would really want to experience. Wherever human societies have existed, there has been some sort of entity (ranging from the village headman to the modern nation-state)that settles disputes, mobilizes resources for purposes of defense, keeps the irrigation systems going (ancient China and Egypt), builds and maintains the roads and aqueducts (Rome), and lots more. No pure free market, as understood by capitalist theory, has ever really existed anywhere.

Now don't invoke the US as an example. First of all, the Constitution gives the national government a variety of powers (controlling currency, foreign trade, interstate commerce, etc). to affect the economy. If you look at the states (from the early 19th c down into the 20th c.) you find policies, subsidies for infrastructure development, property laws, and (what conservatives generally don't know about) lots of regulations that affected business (zoning, for instance, or building requirements for fire-resistant materials--fires in American cities were a huge problem in the early 19th century), not to mention public health. For that matter, consider the "police power" of government to "protect public health and morals," which was backed up by many hundreds of state court decisions in the 19th century.

I won't go on, because I know the free marketeers will just go into denial. The history is real; your rejection of it is ignorance.

Gestell and his ilk begin...
--
...with the unthinking presumption that government defines society.

This is patently not correct. Government may be the defining characteristic (note the use of that word) of *POLITY*, in that we understand it as the institution charged with the responsibility for imposing violent retaliatory force against foreign and domestic aggressors, but government in that sense is not necessary to (indeed, it is commonly pernicious to) the creation and operation of the process we call "society."

The associative nature of a society is primarily voluntary. It *MUST* be, because what the institution asks of its participants for the sake of mutual prosperity and betterment is creative effort, including the exerise of the intellect.

Try getting intellectual creativity - in science, mathematics, engineering, art, *ANYTHING* - at gunpoint.

Contrary to the maunderings of Gestell and his fellow statists, the sort of "self-starting" effort that is the foundation of all material and intellectual productivity is the basis for everything good in any society.

Government, by contrast, is an entirely *UN*-productive parasitic service institution, at best serving a sort of "housekeeping" function. In present-day America it has grown malignant and metastatic in its character and operation.

Think of government as the body politic's immune system.

You need an immune system, certainly.

But you don't give it control over what your brains and heart and muscles are supposed to be doing.

--

reply to Unca Alby and Fletch
How big are any of these towns that have completely volunteer fire departments, and in how many examples have the call fire-fighters provided (either building or paying for, out of their own pockets) the fire station? How many examples can you give of volunteer fire companies paying for their own equipment?

Of course you can argue that it's not necessary for a town to have a fire department, but that shows nothing about the feasibility or effectiveness of your free market alternative.

In this sort of debate, the free market advocate usually relies on hypotheticals, excessive reliance on a few cases he thinks support his position, and a lack of comprehension of his critic's position. All of this is amply demonstrated here.

reply to Bob
Your school playing fields example can be given an authentically conservative and free market interpretation. Selling off the fields to developers is a sound business practice. The school was able to make some money and save money for the taxpayers. As for the additional cost, the conservative answer is simple: abolish school sports. Genuine conservatives would argue that sports, the arts, music, etc. are all unnecessary frills and schools shouldn't have them. So that solves the problem.

Unca Alby...
...has done a fine job coming to my defense (including correctly pointing out that self-sufficient private sector fire services - paying for their own physical plant - exist even today ... that is "right now").

While it is true that the vast majority of transactions take place in a common social structure - and no one has argued otherwise - the leap from that assertion to the assumption that such a structure is REQUIRED for such transactions to take place. That assertion is completely unsupportable.

Even if the requirement for such a pre-existing condition would not have prevented the first such transaction in human history from ever taking place (let alone each successive one), the nature of contract negotiation has successfully operated across disparate cultural lines for millenia. Operation with the additional risks associated with a lack of shared values impacts the nature of the transaction and the recompense for failure to complete built into any such contractual arrangements, but has not prevented those transactions from taking place.

It is inherently false to assume that becasue certain conditions exist at the same time that those circumstances are mutually required. Adam Smith never argued otherwise (though his "Moral Sentiments" did largely operate on the assumption that such conditions existed, but that was because of the nature of his audience, not an acceptance of the assumption being made here).

Gestell
My father has been a local fire cop for almost 10 years now. Much of what you say is true, but unfortunately, many of these departmens get short changed constantly by the boards who allocate funding. That is why we NEED volunteers for these departments quite frankly. The one thing government at all levels should use our tax dollars for, is municipal services. But sadly, I often see the local departments denied things they need, while we are forced to pay for more supurflous nonsense.

Here is an anecdote that illustrates how this works. My former High School, sold off their sports fields to developers, so they would have, "more money" to spend elsewhere. The following year, they began renting space for their sports teams at taxpayer expense. Had they not sold their own fields it would have cost us less. Of course, the folks on the school board who make these decisions dont really care. We the masses are expected to shell out more and more, while recieving less and less.

Gestell --
"It's clear that you're going to slip back and forth across historical periods to make your points."

He is not claiming that all firefighting is privately run, nor is he "mixing time periods" to make a point.

He is demonstrating that firefighting is NOT an example where government is NECESSARY elsewise it can not happen. He has demonstrated this by pointing to historical examples where it has worked, and modern-day examples still works today. Therefore, unlike assertions made by others, it is proven to work just fine withOUT government coercion.




"What your sort of free market defenders evidently can't (or won't) grasp is that all those voluntary transactions going on around us all the time are themselves embedded in centuries of social structure and culture."

I fail to see what bearing that has on anything.

Clearly if a given culture has not learned the value of honesty and the keeping of promises, then said culture is going to fail. Sooner or later. Perhaps in some Darwinian sense, that's why virtually every culture on the planet DOES value honesty.

You appear to be saying that, were it not for government coercion, this natural cultural honesty would cease to exist.


I read a piece about P.T. Barnum of "there's a sucker born every minute" fame. Many circuses were having difficulties getting customers, essentially because they proved to be magnets for pick-pockets and other criminal-types. No one wanted to attend for fear of being victimized.

Barnum hit upon the idea of hiring guards, catching pick-pockets and criminals, and evicting them. He cleaned up the place and kept it clean.

When people felt safe going to the circus, attendance boomed.

A prostitute...
...isn't selling a body part. She's renting it.

reply to Fletch
Re: fire-fighters. It's clear that you're going to slip back and forth across historical periods to make your points. I'm perfectly well aware that fire-fighters sometimes (not always) used to build their own fire stations, etc. But they don't right now, and the way you generalized, you were trying to convey the impression that the conditions you describe obtain in present-day America.

What your sort of free market defenders evidently can't (or won't) grasp is that all those voluntary transactions going on around us all the time are themselves embedded in centuries of social structure and culture. We teach our kids to keep their promises, we encourage them to get educations and develop skills (and habits) of honest, productive activity. We teach them a whole array of values that are reinforced in all sorts of ways in our society. We have a government that will enforce contracts, etc. All of THIS is what those voluntary transactions are embedded in--but free market theorists are just blind to all of it. Adam Smith was not--read his "Theory of Moral Sentiments," for example.

Moreover, all of these things have to be replicated across generations. They all have a bearing on how real--not theoretically abstracted--economies work.

Unca Alby's competely correct
The only thing he didn't respond to was the cases of indentured servitude, overfishing, etc.

Again, the issue is whether or not the rights of anyone have been abrogated. If, as was typically the case at the time of American settlement, the indentured servants agreed to a period of servitude in exchange for passage and the agreement was entered voluntarily, it represents nothing more than a proscribed employment contract for which each party gets a benefit. If, as was sometimes the case, the indentured servant was involuntarily pressed into services, then the free choice of the servant has been denied.

The issue (and it is the point of determination with regard to ranchers in the Old West) is whether or not the rights of the individuals involved have been violated - whether one party has imposed his will on another involuntarily or whether one's property has been taken without the consent of the owner.

The case of "overfishing" is not a moral one, per se. It is a problem readily addressed through established property rights in a free market.

randomthoughts
The definition of "slavery", as we've come to know it, must necessarily abrogate the rights of the slave.

rt: "You are then applying your moral compass to say 'Slavery, by definition, means the slave is prevented from making his own choice.'"

A moral compass has nothing to do with it. It's simply a contradiction to say "everyone gets to make their own choice" and "we can have slaves" in the same paragraph. As should be obvious, the slave does NOT get to make his own choice.

If you're going to have a system where people are free to choose their own course, so long as they don't interfere with anyone else's freedom to choose *their* own course, then you're going to NOT have slavery, by definition.

One problem here as I see it is that people are very sloppy with their meanings. Take the phrase, "Wage Slave," for example. Sorry, no, if you're getting paid a mutually agreed wage, then you're not a slave, as much as it might feel that way.

Many of our Christian friends like to say they're "Slaves to Christ" which again contradicts the definition of "slave" in that they're submitting to the Will of God quite voluntarily. You might even say they're "working in exchange for due consideration" in that they expect to be rewarded in Heaven.

So I want to be very clear on what I mean when I say "slave." You can't really "sell yourself into slavery" using this definition, because that's a free, voluntary transaction, an exchange made between two parties for mutual benefit.

Slavery
Slavery, in some forms, is just a longer term economic decision. In others it was the spoils of war. Roman slaves could buy their freedom and sell themselves into slavery. Was that okay?

You are then applying your moral compass to say "Slavery, by definition, means the slave is prevented from making his own choice."

I'm saying the moral compass doesn't necessarily lie as you define it.

Are indentured servants okay? Shorter timeframe. Why or why not?

How long or short a timeframe before an economic choice become wrong? Is overfishing ever wrong? Where the ranchers of the old west anti-capitalists or uber-capitalists?

randomthoughts
rt: "Since there is nothing on which we all can agree, everyone gets to make their own choice. How can you dare declare slavery immoral?"

Because you contradict yourself in two sentences. Slavery, by definition, means the slave is prevented from making his own choice.


You attack libertarian principles with the standard strawman set. They must come pre-packaged at Wal*Mart or something. "Oh goodness me, you want to allow organs to be sold on the free market! Who's going to pay for the police, army, and interstate highways, and keep people from owning slaves?"


rt: "Here I make the case that some morals are necessary..."

And from that you make the leap that maybe (maybe!) kidneys can be sold, but not hearts?

And you don't mind how many people will certainly die needlessly in order to satisfy YOUR idea of "morality"?

random...
"Free market by the Libertarian definition are individual constructs not community constructs."

Freedom is always an individual concept; collective ("community") freedom is self-contradictory.

"How can you dare declare slavery immoral? It's just long term economic choices, spanning generations."

Straw man argument. Your freedom only extends to the point of someone else's. Slavery infringes on the rights of others and, as such, has always been anti-capitalistic.

"True Free Markets have a moral underpinning that respects individuals..." Period. Free markets are moral unto themselves. Not only is there nothing inherently moral in the provision of the services you mention, using force to compel others to provide them is arguably immoral.

"You question which moral system? That is another debate."

That's just the point. The imposition of ANY code upon others is inherently IMmoral, regardles of whether it is imposed theocratically or arrived at through "debate". There's no "logical extension" of the argument that requires such an imposition. Quite the opposite.

Cry Unca
Ah... you see the problem. Free market by the Libertarian definition are individual constructs not community constructs.

Since there is nothing on which we all can agree, everyone gets to make their own choice. How can you dare declare slavery immoral? It's just long term economic choices, spanning generations.

True Free Markets have a moral underpinning that respects individuals but do not avoid community responsibilities, i.g. common defense, interstate commerce, even reasonable medical treatments.

You question which moral system? That is another debate. Here I make the case that some morals are necessary and that Stossel doesn't follow the logical extension of his (and your) arguments.


randomthoughts - the Morality of Freedom
"There must be a moral component, some limit."

Based on WHO's moral component?

Buddhism, perhaps? Sharia law, maybe?

Oh oh, that's right, this is a "Christian nation", so we should use the Bible as the determinant of what is the "moral component."

No -- the Free Market DEFINES morality, inasmuch as it IS what people do FREELY, using THEIR own "moral compass" -- NOT YOURS.

The instant somebody decides to insert some "moral component" and use that as justification to force people against participating in market transactions that they have freely decided were mutually beneficial, you are forcing YOUR definition of "morality" on to someone who happens to disagree with your definition.

"Stossel would allow kidney sales but presumably not hearts."

You are interjecting your own presumptions of "morality". Why NOT sell your heart if you're not going to be using it anymore?

Freedom Markets
Free markets are essential to freedom. Without private ownership of the press, freedom of the press is limited to government propaganda i.g. Chavez.

But that does not mean that all actions should be permitted at some 'market value.' There must be a moral component, some limit.

The question is then where do you draw the line. On what basis?

Stossel would allow kidney sales but presumably not hearts.

I don't think it is incongruent to say free markets are the best way to insure freedom and at the same time determine limits to some markets.

That is essentially the difference between libertarians, who tend towards allowing everything and conservatives who tend to see some responsible government limitations on behavior.

One take on prohibiting prostitution is to assist governmental assistance honoring marriage contracts. Clearly one recognized role of government is the enforcement of contracts.

Capital Formation
The capital formed during the late part of the 18th century and early part of the 20 century was the capital that made the 20th century, the American Century....

That capital has now been squandered by the Marxism of the Democrats, replaced by enormous debt and massive taxation....

With more of same ahead for the American people if Democrats win...

Is it any wonder that capital and the potential jobs it creates are offsourcing to places where capital is welcome.

Reply to Gestell - 2
Now to your factual mistakes. In a number of cases, the call fire-fighters DID build their fire station (particularly with regard to historical examples). As said before, fire fighting BEGAN as an entirely private sector enterprise. Equipment is financed but, again, in many cases is funded via donations, usage fees and community fund raising. Your facts simply ... aren't.

"Is this where you invoke some sort of fantasized history of Neolithic men bargaining over stone tools? I mean, real societies, with real histories. Got any?"

The problem with your thesis is that you are blind to the realities that take place around you literally ALL the time. The free exchange of goods and services among individuals without the intervention of the state happens all the time. Further some ancilary activities (such as taxation) while intrusive in and of themselves, do not alter the nature of the freely executed transaction. By definition, any activity that takes place (as millions do every day) without government interference can take place without government.

reply to Gestell - 1
"Do you really mean that there doesn't have to be any cultural support, internalized by members of a society, for the free market to function? What are your real-world examples, please?"

Free exchange between people of disparate cultures happens literally ALL the time. Such exchanges take place based on agreements and understandings acheived at the outset of the transaction. No such pre-existing condition of commonality must exist prior to the beginning of negotiations.

There are small communities around the country that have call fire-fighters as well as considerably larger groups operating on an incorporated basis (another poster - SJ Doc - graciously provided an example), so the assertion that "no large town" does this is factually wrong. Nor is the assertion that it "isn't enough to make it work" logically sustainable since proportionality would prevent the smaller versions from operating as well if that were true. The "coordination" that is necessary is not because of market failure but rather due to the government foray into such work. There would still need to be coordination among adjacent departments even if one weren't state run.

More to Fletch
If you'd like to see what can be done with a "moral economic" approach, see the following:

http://economicsbulletin.vanderbilt.edu/2007/volume4/EB-07D 60001A.pdf.

Note that Adam Smith was well aware of what is now called the "moral economy," so there's plainly nothing inherently Marxist in the idea.

correction
A slip of the fingers produced "ceteribus paribus" instead of the correct "ceteris paribus."

reply to Fletch
This is the first I've heard that the "moral economy" is specifically Marxist. Do you really mean that there doesn't have to be any cultural support, internalized by members of a society, for the free market to function? What are your real-world examples, please?

There are small communities around the country that have call fire-fighters. No large town or city does this, nor can it, since volunteerism just isn't enough to make it work. Nor is it the case that call fire-fighters only need government "as a matter of coordination," as you put it. I can't believe you really think government is needed for "coordination;" isn't that supposed to be what the market does best?

Now to your factual mistakes. The call fire-fighters did NOT build their fire station--the tax payers of the community paid for it. Nor did these volunteers purchase their own trucks and equipment--the taxpayers did. The funding for this capability was handled by means of government, as it had to be. Or do you have any real-world examples to the contrary? Don't give me economist-style theorizing on this with a ceteribus paribus escape clause.

Now for the silliest of your claims, which is this: "any economic activity that takes place in the absence of active governmental intervention is, by nature, an example of the free market (and capitalism). Such activities take place entirely without the need for any governmental structure and can demonstrably operate even in its absence. " Exactly when and where did all this take place? Is this where you invoke some sort of fantasized history of Neolithic men bargaining over stone tools? I mean, real societies, with real histories. Got any?

Leftists are correct ..
.. Capitalism is harsh and gritty

:

Our country was founded on the basis of freedom. A novel idea, this meant that people were free but Govt was bound. Americans were free to do anything except those few actions that were legally proscribed (murder, robbery etc). On the other hand, Govt was bound to do only that which it was permitted, by the voluntary consent of citizens.

:

With its philosophical underpinnings of freedom, and its economic incentives aligned with human predilictions, the American economy sputtered to life. Within two centuries of its birth - a relatively small time span in terms of societal evolution - it became a roaring engine that sustained the growth of a magnificent nation. Before long, it became the dominant economy in the world. This was because most of the other countries were mired in the muck of monarchy, feudalism or savage cannibalism (aka socialism) in which the economic incentives ran counter to individual desires. The stated intentions of the Governing class in those countries had very little to do with their actual outcomes - they were doomed because of their misaligned incentives.

Somewhere along the line, the "meddlers" awoke in America.
-----------end of excerpt -------------
http://voice.townhall.com/g/dd4ccb27-499e-4a97-999b-41b1187 19833
---------------------------------------
Socialism SOUNDS like it is built on wonderful, noble ideals -- but results in unimaginable squalor. Capitalism SOUNDS cold and selfish -- but results in the affluence that Americans take for granted.

Market Failure -- Defined
"Market Failure" is when the participants in the Free Market choose freely to do something other than what YOU think they should.

Free markets are fine...
Provided that one's trade policies are geared towards serving the majority, and that market failure is not a problem which riddles markets.

re: Gestell, others
Government DOES have a purpose in even a free market economy: to protect property rights, to enforce contracts, and to prevent fraud and coercion.

Addressing economic fallacies - 1
As for the nonexistent Marxist construct of the “moral (sic) economy”, the notion that free individuals cannot peacefully exchange with one another without them is absurd on its face. It is based on the baseless assumption that free individuals cannot negotiate the terms of exchange (contract) in the absence of pre-existing structures. If that were the case, then the original transaction could never have talen place and we’d all still be in the Stone Age, struggling for perpetual self-sufficiency.

Institutional economics, as a sub-category of dealing with the impact of human-created institutions in economics is a valid historical field. Sadly, too many have attempted to adopt it as a neo-Marxist school (heavily influenced by out-of-favor – inevitably – John Kenneth Galbraith) insisting that collectivist activities (via those institutions) are viably superior forms. This is entirely contrary to actual history.

Sorry TFY, your criticism (and Al Gore’s if the attribution is correct) is nonsensical. When free individuals engage in trade (regardless of the commodity under discussion) it is NOT EVER inflationary. The funds used for the purchase of that commodity (organ) are withheld from the purchase of other goods. No increase in the money supply takes place.

Addressing economic fallacies - 1
Judges? Buzzzz!!! Sorry, Gestell, but you don’t win the Ginsu knives or the years’ supply of Turtle Wax. I did not say that there are not many fire departments run by government in this country. Nevertheless, private fire protection worked very well before government stepped in. And there are still countless volunteer fire companies that operate independently of government (except as a matter of coordination).

My statements are the ones that ARE factually correct.

Nor do your “Realism 101” lessons have any credibility.

While it is true that no economy in modern history (since the rise of the nation-state) has operated in the absence of government, the argument that free market theory is utopian requiring any such thing has always been nothing more than ignorant drivel. To the contrary, any economic activity that takes place in the absence of active governmental intervention is, by nature, an example of the free market (and capitalism). Such activities take place entirely without the need for any governmental structure and can demonstrably operate even in its absence.

How did this entire thread
devolve into an argument over kidneys?

LILLY

.....How many abortions would be eliminated if the woman knew she could sell her baby to an adoption agency? ...or in your "morality" is it better to kill the child rather than sell it? ...excuse me if I seem dense but I fail to see anythig moral about abortion .....COLOSSUS

Think for Yourself
"When it becomes commonplace to sell one's kidneys, the additional personal income from these kidneys will drive up prices of consumer goods (more money available to spend, same number of goods available in the market), making it a necessity for others to sell their kidneys.

That is Al Gore and Congress' argument and it is entirely valid."

"Valid"? No, I think the phrase you are looking for is "obscenely stupid."

If that is a valid argument, then any number of measures to limit prosperity become valid as well. For if increasing people's personal incomes is what drives inflation, then to control inflation, we must limit...

... aha. Yet another piece of the Leftist mindset slips into place for me.

"Obscenely stupid" remains accurate, however.

Think for yourself - Are you out of..?
--
...your friggin' mind?

Or are you just trying to pass a funny? You say:

"When it becomes commonplace to sell one's kidneys, the additional personal income from these kidneys will drive up prices of consumer goods (more money available to spend, same number of goods available in the market), making it a necessity for others to sell their kidneys."

...are you really trying to vomit up John Maynard Keynes (long since digested and shat as he deserved), or are you striving to simulate wit?

We live in a national economy where the Open Market Committee of the Federal Reserve decides monthly on the rate at which they will continue to accelerate the degradation of the U.S. dollar into toilet tissue, and you can post *THAT* kind of wonderful Keynesian crap on this board?

Yeah, sure, "That is Al Gore and Congress' argument...."

Which is more than a hint about why it's as bogus as Bill Clinton's wedding vows.

--

Think for yourself...I think you need to
Think for yourself...I think you need to think again.

It would not become commonplace to sell one's kidney, as there will never be much more demand than the percentage of the population, it already is. In other word's just to get you thinking... If there are 300 million people in America today and only 75 thousand need a kidney, unless every one in America came down with CKD (just about impossible) there won't be a commonplace need for kidneys. Therefore it would not dive up consumer goods or make it necessary for millions to sell their kidneys. I'm no economist, but I don't think you have a very valid argument.

The problem with the argument
The problem with this argument is that it is a viable, free choice only when only a few people are doing it. In that case, an individual can decide to sell his kidney for the money or take the money, neither of which has a negative effect on anyone else.

When it becomes commonplace to sell one's kidneys, the additional personal income from these kidneys will drive up prices of consumer goods (more money available to spend, same number of goods available in the market), making it a necessity for others to sell their kidneys.

That is Al Gore and Congress' argument and it is entirely valid.

As to selling kids, it already happens,
all the time. When has a child ever been GIVEN to an adoptive parent? No, no, no, One must pay through the nose to get a child. Just not to the parent of the baby. You must pay the State, and the Lawyer, and the Adoption agency, but never the parent.

All three of them makes massive amounts of money off transferring ownership of the child, but the parents make no money at all.

I think if parents were able to sell unwanted children, you would see a lot less abortions, a lot less abuse of children, and a lot less of American parents with foreign children, because there were no American babies to be had.

It is precisely because there is no easy way to afford an unwanted child, that so many opt for abortion, and if they had a financial incentive to bear the child, there would be no reason to abort.

On the surface it seems cruel that a parent would sell a child, but how is it any different than putting a baby up for adoption, and it's certainly a LOT less cruel than aborting it.

It seems like a win-win to me, as childless couples get access to more children (and for no more money than they currently pay to the Adoption agencies), and women who can't afford, or don't want a child, would be compensated for the very real trauma of bearing a child. All government would need to do is regulate just enough to keep bad guys from buying the kids, and they supposedly do that now, anyway, for adoptions.

The thing no one considers is that organ
donation might go down, but the availability of organs would go up substantially, if donors were allowed to sell organs, and any black market would disappear, as a consequence.

Rather than assume that a massive syndicate of black marketeers would rise up to attack women and children for their organs, I believe it would be wildly more likely that voluntary organ selling would increase to fill the void, and who would pay for a black market kidney, when one could be purchased legally for less money? (I never heard of a black market selling items for less).

I have no doubt that poor people would sell their organs faster than rich people, but that would be their choice. As it is, I too have heard that they're planning to make us all Donors by default, and if we don't actively opt out, we will be fair game whenever we enter the hospital with an iffy outcome.

And who's to say that they won't err on the side of saving my organs, rather than saving my life? I don't want them looking at me, and wondering how much profit there will be if I live, versus if I die and they harvest my organs. Since right now, ONLY they make money on my organs, and I am out of the loop, only THEY will be there with a reason to care about preserving my organ's viability.

Personally, I like my odds better, when "I" get to decide if, when, and to whom I will donate my organs, and if money changes hands, "I" will at least get a cut, and someone will at least have to get my consent!

Political Realism and the Economy
Time for a quick lesson in Political Realism 101:

No economy, at no point in human history, has every operated with complete separation from government. Free market theory is developed in a political vacuum, without including reference to government and its activities. My point is not to defend any specific form of economic policy, but rather to note something about the real world.

Government provides the framework of laws and institutions without which nothing even vaguely resembling the free market would work for an instant. Free market theorists may devote a passing reference to this, but then go on to construct the conceptual apparatus of basic microeconomic theory (the core of free market economics) as if government didn't exist.

There is also what some political theorists call the "moral economy," which is the surrounding context of cultural values and social relations without which the free market can't operate at all. Something as simple as the idea that people should pay their debts, or honor a contract has to be socialized into each new generation in any real society.

What I'd like to see is for mainstream (i.e., neoclassical) economists to pay systematic, not casual, attention to such matters. That's why, when it comes to economics, I prefer "institutional economics" (look it up) and, for some purposes, such as fine-grained study of corporations, "behavioral economics." These are out of fashion in economics departments, but help us understand how real economies, in the real world, actually work.

Gestell, you dumbpuck...
--
...look up "Rural-Metro Corporation" for one example what's available in private sector fire protection (as well as other emergency services).

Not a *Reason* magazine subscriber, are you?

--

There are none so blind as those .....
Right on Mr. Stossel! There are none so blind as those who will not see, but think they see! Someone please save us from them!!!!

Persuasion vs. coercion
--
That's the difference between capitalism (Marx and Engels' pejorative term for what everyone was calling "the free market") and any type of command economy.

And socialism - for all that it's "social" and emphasisizes "the good of society" - is precisely that. A command economy.

You buy or sell, eat or starve, breathe or suffocate on *COMMAND*.

Some politician or his bureaucratic henchman, with the aid of armed goons (in uniform or plainclothes) sees to it that you obey those commands.

People who believe that their neighbors are too willful, stupid, greedy, pudgy, or "ethnically challenged" to work for the good of society -

...however in hell you might define what actually *IS* "for the good of society"...

- hate the free market with every drop of venom in their bloodstreams.

And venom such people have got aplenty.

That's because the free market allows their neighbors to "...can live free, talk free, go or come, buy or sell, be drunk or sober, however they choose."

And socialists can't *STAND* the idea that any of their neighbors should be permitted such dangerous, individualistic freedom.

--

reply to Fletch
In the midst of your free market euphoria, you overlooked soemthing: Here's your line:

"Fire protection began as an entirely private enterprise and has worked extremely well in the absence of governmental interference."

On what planet? Here, there are "fire departments" that are run by "government." Or do you think we still have private fire companies, as we did in the 19th century?

I'll believe free marketeers when I see better fidelity to facts.

F1etch
"One point (not necessarily made by a liberal) deserving comment is the assertion that the voluntary donation of organs would cease. This is no ore true than the expectation that all private charity would cease upon the implementation of public charity. Further, probate disputes would be pointless as viability would not survive the legal maneuvering."
----------


You give the human race more credit than I. Maybe not all donations would cease, however the majority of those that signed the organ donation cards would also like the idea of their family members receiving money as well. Sort of like additional life insurance except they don't actually have to pay any premiums. Who wouldn't take advantage of such a system.


Wayfinder
The risk of which you speak has been an urban legend for some time ... and a particularly silly one at that. No one is "selected" for harvesting. The choice is a voluntary one. As for organ theft, each and every time it has proven to be nonsensical. The tall tale about 40% of the population of some Indian provinces having only one kidney was accompanied by one wherein hundreds had organs removed while going to the hospital to give blood.

It cannot be done in secret. The facilities necessary to extract, preserve and transport the organs are simply not available to those who would engage in such theft (and hospitals are some of the most heavily monitored places around).

Are we to give tremendous weight to this arguably extremely limited risk and prevent people from offering a life saving alternative to others while deciding to better their own condition (as they see it) by engaging in the donation?

Wayfinder -- Organ Racketeering
That sort of thing actually does happen today.

Having a Free Market for organs would actually REDUCE this racketeering, rather than increase it. The reason for this is simple: because people are not allowed to sell their organs, fewer of them make their organs available. This creates a SHORTAGE in the SUPPLY.

Any time you have supply shortage, the price goes up. As the price goes up, criminals take more chances with more illegal activities in order to cash in. Alcohol and Drug Prohibitions make excellent textbook examples of this.

Now, when people find out they can get PAID -- then MORE people will be willing to part with a kidney, or a lung, or pints of blood, in exchange for due consideration. This will INCREASE the supply -- leading to LOWER prices -- so that the illegal racketeering of organs becomes far too risky for the shrinking profit.

Certainly there will always be some crime, but my point is that a legal free market has the beneficial side effect of REDUCING that crime.

Responses - primarily to libs - Pt 4
Finally, a true teaching of economics is ALWAYS worthwhile. Should someone undertake such an education, they should learn relatively quickly that the slur that economic theory is based on “perfect competition” and “homo economicus” is complete drivel. These Marxian assertions (similar to the historically inaccurate assertions made by Marx himself about the fall in living standards among the early factory workers – in actuality their lives improved steadily). Schumpeter (and Mises and Hayek after him) correctly noted that economics is the study of human behavior rather than specific commodities. It is a mischaracterization, however, to conclude that he (as another classical liberal) suggested that it was the study of options that might have been taken (ostensibly by the state) rather than an embrace of the free market – specifically because it DOES work in the real world.

Sedgewik: Medical Choice
Educated, degreed, licenced doctors are killing patients all the time. You won't have any idea of the extent of it, unless you worked in medicine and saw what went on and what was told the family and what was written up officially. Currently the monopoly of medical care belongs to only one group, which protects itself from the consequences of their ongoing mistakes. Sure, patients do sue doctors and hospitals, but usually only for gross things, like having the wrong leg cut off.

Diagnosis of diseases and medical care by other than a licenced doctor is against the law currently. This has made their system into a religion, which persecutes even doctors for not conforming. Even so, I say let them keep their system (which has produced brilliant technological innovation), but diagnosis and treatment of diseases should be opened up to other approaches, which also can maintain their educational requirements, standards and licences.

The point is for people to have choices. It would be beneficial for the monopolistic medical business to have competition and to occasionally question their theories and approaches.


Responses - primarily to libs - Pt 3
None of the series of questions brought up has any validity in this discussion. The sale of a two year old boy has already been dealt with. The rest have nothing to do with the free market. Euthanasia infringes on Grandma’s rights (kind of like the issue of abortion from the conservative perspective) as certainly is the hiring of a hit man to kill someone. Burning a cross on a neighbor’s lawn infringes on THEIR rights. And manipulating voting machines (as if this were happening) would be perpetuating fraud (as is submitting someone else’s term paper as your own).

Fire protection began as an entirely private enterprise and has worked extremely well in the absence of governmental interference. Private vaccinations have also worked extremely well, particularly given that private charity has a huge incentive to make them freely available and other institutions, such as schools (which certainly can be private) insist that vaccinations be received before attendance is permitted. Similarly, while the administration of law is a special, largely governmental case, private law and mediation has long been a vital and overwhelmingly successful activity.

The free market IS the moral choice because it allows people to freely interact with one another so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others (a pertinent point relating to the provided questions). It is pure presumption to expect that imposing one’s own moral standard upon those who are otherwise not harming anyone is any less an infringement.

Responses - primarily to libs - Pt 2
John, thank you. I simply don’t think we could have managed without another off-topic point followed by shameless self-promotion. Bravo.

Then we get to some of the dumber ones. It is not the position of conservatives (and libertarians) that “free markets solve everything”, but rather that UN-free markets yield poorer results. If the initial assertion were not sufficiently problematic, the statement that “in some of india's (sic) poorest provinces, 40% of the population has only one kidney” is factually wrong (and by a huge margin). In fact, India has made organ sales illegal now. Nevertheless, what organ sales that did take place before the ban was put into effect had the truly disastrous consequences of … saving the lives of the recipients and significantly improving the financial condition of the donors.

The notion that people will simply part themselves out is idiotic, contrary both to the self interest of the individuals involved and actual results in those cases where organ sales have been permitted. In any event, even that warped sense of reality hardly justifies imposing one’s own moral beliefs on someone who is not harming others.

As for the problem of doctors changing the definition of death, this is a misconception. In reality, the practice of manipulating death (always involuntarily which is an entirely separate issue from the one being discussed here) is a common one in countries with legalized euthanasia and socialized medicine – because they need the bed space.

Responses - primarily to libs - Pt1
It seems likely that there is little point in responding to the charges that Stossel’s points are empty or that free market defenders are merely sheep bowing to the winds. The psychological term for such assertions is “projection”. Some other points deserve a more reasoned response.

First, Stossel’s argument does not give credence to the pro-choice crowd, per se. The issue is, and has always been, one of assessing the point at which the fetus becomes an individual entity whose rights can, and should be protected. Legitimate debate can take place on this point. The traditional conservative position is that, even to the extent that we do not know the answer, how can one risk error with something as sacred as human life? Those who are confused about the distinction between actions upon the fetus and actions upon the body of the individual (including reproductive organs) are being deliberately obtuse.

As for the nonsensical “oatmeal and spinach” example, no such rights exist, children are subject to the will of the parent who is providing sustenance and shelter. There is no infringement as, of course, the actual taking of life must always be.

One point (not necessarily made by a liberal) deserving comment is the assertion that the voluntary donation of organs would cease. This is no ore true than the expectation that all private charity would cease upon the implementation of public charity. Further, probate disputes would be pointless as viability would not survive the legal maneuvering.

Second, a common tactic of liberals has been to argue that Stossel doesn’t cover every aspect of every issue that he brings up in his columns (as if they were endlessly open ended). The latest version of this complaint is that he makes no reference to the monopolistic interference of the AMA. But the fact is that Stossel – like several libertarians – has made this point before. And it is completely tangential to the (legitimate) point being made here.

Proud Liberal -- History of Economics
I agree with you, although you might not like the way I agree - - -

"But it appears that those posters have in mind the teaching of an economic theory based on perfect competition and on a rational homo economicus, both of which are convenient fictions that do not apply to the real world."

That's interesting for a liberal to bring up the "real world" in a discussion!

However, I'd have no objection to teaching the history of economics, so long as modern economic theory is also taught. Students can learn the history of why Socialism, Keynesianism, and Modern Liberalism all failed.

The point is, nowadays NO economics is taught. We have college graduates thinking that something is "free" because the government provides it, or that corporations are "greedy" because they pass increased costs to the consumer instead of reducing profits.

I remember believing companies should sell an item for a $1.00 profit over what it cost, whether it cost $100 or a $1,000,000. Hey, it's profit, right? That's the kind of economic illiteracy that schools are allowing in their graduates.

I am still waiting on Steve
But I will open the question to any Leftist who believes that organ sale is immoral and should remain illegal.

Do you believe that abortion should remain legal? Can you defend the discrepancy between the two positions?

Astroboy108 --
"If Stossel had written an article on the 'moral depravity' of selling organs, all you pro-organ sellers would be whistling a different tune, simply because you are sheep. I doubt that most of you have ever seriously contemplated this issue until you read your talking points this morning."

Care to put your money where your mouth is?

Organ Racket
To continue from my post to answer Franksballad and Steve, let me further expand on this organ racket.

If the money is worth it, and if there's a sizable cut for a minimum amount of people, such a barbaric racket is very possible.

"But, the recipients will want to know where and how their new organs came to them?"

No, they won't. Not particularly if they're desperate. Not if they're as modernly materialistic as people are today. Doctors want to get paid, and they want the reputation of saving lives. Patients generally want to live and enjoy life someday after their hospital visit.

A half-way organized syndicate racket will solve any problem that interfers with their profit margin.

In the beginning, only derelicts, streetwalkers and general "nobodies" will be selected for organ harvest. Then orphans and runaways. Then the demand for healthy organs from healthy people will prevail, and then the racket's selection will move into more healthy demographics. The lonely jogger at night. The teenager going to a party with booze for the first time. The woman walking to her car in a dimly lit parking garage. Women and children will be the first targets, as they are generally the easier targets. But there's nothing that a gun and a club can't handle.

Of course, I'm not saying that organ selling should be prohibited. I'm saying that there is this very real danger here that, if not checked somehow, will happen. If the organs are worth thousands, tens of thousands, or millions of dollars, you can bet your life that there will be a rise of such rackets. The demand will be high, the supply will always be small (unless they learn how to clone individual organs), and there will be suppliers for the right price. They already exist, but now if you allow people to sell their organs within this country on a legal basis you open up this can of worms that will be difficult to contain.

It's what we're used to
The problem is that all of us are used to driving the roads and highways of this country without paying; they're free. At least we feel they are free because we don't see the tax money being collected.

We swipe our credit cards and the gas pump starts pumping expensive fuel. We curse the oil companies without thinking how much of evry gallon is actually federal and state taxes. Ideally these taxes are supposed to be used to build and maintain roads, highways, bridges.....yea right!

Toll roads are great because the traffic is usually less and you can get where you want faster. In the back of my mind I'm paying to avoid all the idiots on the interstate and get where I'm going faster. In reality, you pay for the use of highways everytime you buy gas and for the toll roads at every collection booth.

If they would lower the fuel tax I would favor more toll roads. Just watch closely where the tolls collected go to.


Teach HISTORY of Economics
I've seen a number of posts recently recommending the wider teaching of economics. But it appears that those posters have in mind the teaching of an economic theory based on perfect competition and on a rational homo economicus, both of which are convenient fictions that do not apply to the real world.

The EDUCATIONS of individuals would be better achieved by teaching about the context in which the free market was developed, the desperate lives of the first factory workers, how the various Nobel winners made corrections to classical economics, with a full explanation of why classical economics needed correcting, how Peter Schumpeter (I think it was) first articulated that it was knowledge rather than goods and services which is the subject matter of economics, the possible ways in which economics might have been taken but weren't, the effect of the "in club" of economists in universities (something like the MSM) on who gets promoted, etc.

That's the education in economics which would be worth while.

Franksballad and Steve
"Are you really that dense? If I go in to donate a kidney, that means that the doctor I go to has to anesthetize me and then physically remove my kidney and then properly prepare it to be given to someone else. Obviously, If I go in to sell my kidney, and the kidney I want to sell is not in my body, then something is clearly wrong. It should be obvious to all that I did not remove my own kidney and put it in a bag."

Steve, I guess you were born yesterday, were you? I guess you're so sheltered to believe that ONLY a licenced doctor with your best health in mind will remove your kidney, or anything else.

Suppose there are doctors out there who were driven out of the medical industry thanks to malpractice, or what if he's up to his armpits in debt. And suppose there are other people out there who are depraved enough to kidnap and kill people. I don't have to suppose, because they are out there.

A racket can be formed by bringing the talents of these people together. People can be beaten and kidnapped and brought in to have their organs removed without a care to their lives, because dead men tell no tales! And if you are so stupid to think that a doctor won't violate his Hippocratic Oath to stoop so low, you don't know about Abortion Doctors.

And perhaps the doctors don't really need the money! Perhaps, in their own twisted way, they may believe they're being compassionate by taking the organs of a person "that don't need it" and put it into someone they deem does. If you don't believe a doctor would ever make that kind of decision, obviously you don't know many doctors.


Astroboy 108
Great fact-supported insight into the benefits and drawbacks of free markets. Thanks.

Scooter & reny
scooternyc writes: Wednesday, January, 16, 2008 7:23 AM

"renny
I like that you write about this "control" that others are constantly trying to enforce onto our nation.

It's an insipid behavior that is so destructive."

Precisely, just as the tyrants in DC just outlawed the Edison candescent bulb and are now saying we have to use CFL bulbs with contain MERCURY!!! MERCURY--a neurotoxin that is more deadly to people and the enviroment than any gore-baloney carbon footprint.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=74311 98

Proud Liberal said:
“OK, a fetus has rights. Then why doesn't (or does she) this fetus at 2 years of age have the right to refuse to eat her oatmeal or spinach and at the age of six decide she doesn't want to go to school any more - having tried kindergarten and found it boring?

Surely a parent has no right superceeding the fetus' rights to make up her own mind about things. The fetus enjoys the rights of any individual to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

That was perhaps the stupidest comment I’ve read today, and I’ve read quite a few.

Perhaps you should be a little less ‘proud.’

Full term chattel
A few years ago a family's daughter had a nasty form of leukemia. She needed a bone marrow transplant and had no donor. The family deliberately had another child in the hopes it would be a suitable donor. It was and she did.

What "right" did that child have in the process? She was not asked and had no veto. Her body was not hers. It is an example of those in power making a decision while ignoring unpleasant ramifications.

I have no objection to organ selling, all things being equal. If your next door neighbor is willing to sell you his kidney, good for him and lucky for you. If you have to go half way around the world to find someone poor enough to make the deal, it says more about the buyer than the seller.

Stossel never said that...
Stossel never says "No government." Libertarians like John Stossel simply want as little government as possible. Even libertarian neo-classical economists like Thomas Sowell recognize the need for some government regulation in market-based economies. Otherwise you can eventually end up with monopolies and other market-breaking phenomenon.

So please, quit making the dishonest claim that Mr. Stossel thinks all government involvement is bad. He has never claimed that, to my knowledge. He simply states, correctly, that the government has a tendency to get too involved, thus skewing the market away from pretty thorough supply and demand self-regulation. Such is the case with rent control, price floors, and the like.

Poor people need Big Papa State
C'mon, John, we all know that poor people are stupid! They eat too much, don't exercise, smoke, drink alcohol, lie on mortgage applications to take advantage of low rates in a competetive market, don't put aside any savings, can't negotiate a work contract. They need the nanny state to protect them from themselves. That's why we have Socialists, er, I mean, Democrats. The proletariat, I mean, poor people, are noble, of course, but stupid.

Hillary delenda est.

re: Lilly part 2
When you say "put a hefty price", who are you suggesting decide that price? The government? Perhaps the market should decide, which sets into motion a whole other discussion on prices, supply, demand, etc.

quote: "Privatize the judiciary and allow trials and judgment only to those who pay their way?"

You're now violating the concept of equality before the law. That's not libertarian philosophy.

quote: "At what point does morality have a place in controlling the free market? Or does it, ever? Is market truly never wrong?"

Those are different questions. The purpose of government is to protect individual liberty, not to promote morality. I don't think anyone has ever said the free market is *perfect*, but it does tend to promote the most efficient allocation of capital, goods, and services. Government interference tends to be less efficient and promote scarcity, but again, that's a large discussion on its own.

re: Lilly: questions & my responses
quote:"How about "Healthy 2 year-old boy, $100,000 cash"?"

That's buying and selling of a separate human entity, not property or something that you "own" in that manner.

quote: "How about "Will euthanize your Grandma for $50,000"?"

Grandma is a separate person. At that point you are infringing upon her right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Completely different situation.

quote: "Will burn cross on your black neigbor's lawn, $1,000"."

You are then violating your neighbor's property rights.

quote: "Will customize your voting machines to guarantee desired result"?

You are now violating my right to my vote, and to equal protection under the law.


quote: "I imagine it is already possible to purchase every known sex service. College term papers are sold online, no problem. The various biological bits necessary for the conception of a child are freely bartered. If you know where to look, it's probably easy to find a hit man and get him to take out your unwanted spouse."

You are mixing and mashing unrelated ideas. Killing someone is murder: you are, by definition ending that person's life and therefore by definition infringing upon his liberty. Libertarian philosophy does not promote that -- it promotes allowing everyone the freedom to their own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of someone else.

quote: "Suppose we privatize fire protection and make it available only to those who can pay for it? Put a hefty price on smallpox/polio/measles vaccination and give the shots only to the children of those whose parents can afford them?"

flawed logic
Wayfinder writes: Wednesday, January, 16, 2008 4:32 AM

"How do you prove that the organ you are selling is rightfully yours? What if you murdered someone for their organs? Would the seller necessarily run a comparison? Would a recipient care so long as the organ functioned without rejection?"

Are you really that dense? If I go in to donate a kidney, that means that the doctor I go to has to anesthetize me and then physically remove my kidney and then properly prepare it to be given to someone else. Obviously, If I go in to sell my kidney, and the kidney I want to sell is not in my body, then something is clearly wrong. It should be obvious to all that I did not remove my own kidney and put it in a bag.

Sheesh....

religiouslib my opinion is
if you have the right to decide what happens reproductively then it follows you should have the same right to other organs. I am not taking a position on pro choice but one on the logic of the position. I dont believe you can have one without the other. I do believe however that the situation is different re a full term child.

religiouslib
Are you also aware that it is only the poorest who deign to do MANUAL labor to earn their living? WHAT AN OUTRAGE!

We should make all manual labor illegal; it's the only thing that's fair.

Post-death gain from selling organs
I think the best benefit to free market organs is the gain that a family would get after the death of a family member. If most/all of the organs were usable, they'd get $100,000 or more, which would be great for a poor family.

randomthoughts (Part 2)
As AudiR10 points out we are seeing courts imposing biological rights over what is best for the child when a biological parent has second thoughts, sometimes years after the child is already being raised as a member of the non-biological family.
Wayfinder also has a point that children own themselves but are under the custody of their parents until such time as they are considered of legal age where they can be considered adults. Expanding on Wayfinders point any adoption or even fertility treatment is really just adults paying for the right to raise the child or children involved.

Why should it be legal for third parties to make money off their involvement in adoptions or fertility treatments, but illegal for biological parents to make money from an arrangement with another family to raise a child or children for them? What difference is the later from a person/family who hires a nanny or aupair? Both are financial agreements for non-biological relations to the child or children to raise or help raise the child or children. Nannies or nursemaids as they were once called sometimes work for the same family as a professional caregiver for decades raising or helping to raise multiple children in the family for which they work.

Being a believer in a free market, I lean towards it being legal for biological parents to sell their custody of and rights to raise a child they have created. Both parents should be in agreement and the contract involved should take precedent over biological ties in family court, unless it is later found that the non-biological family is not suitable to properly raise the child or violates a morals clause regarding abuse, neglect, etc.

randomthoughts (part 1)
Interesting extension of the premise of Stossel's column. And interesting are the replies to you.
A man can sell his sperm, and a woman can sell her eggs, but once the two of them are brought together and insemination takes place (inside or outside the womb) the rules change, or do they?

Sperm and eggs are bought or harvested from people by companies to re-sell them via the fertility industry which makes quite a lot of money of infertile couples, but the people from which the sperm and eggs are harvested can't legally cut out the harvesting companies and enter into similar agreements directly with those who wish to make use of the sperm and eggs to make a child for them to raise.

Adoption agencies can permanently transfer custody and care of an already born child from the biological parent or parents to non-biological caregivers who pay quite a bit of money to the agency in order to find a child or children and complete the adoption process, but the biological parents can't cut out the adoption agencies and enter into similar agreements directly with those who wish to raise their child or children.

i am confused
so some conservatives say a woman doesn't have the right to make decisions about her body when it comes to birthing but she does have the right to sell off her body parts.

can she sell her fetus also?

it seems very confusing to me.

I prostitute myself every day
as does just about everyone else who posts here. Do you think I offer up my time and talent pro bono? No, my employer pays me fairly well for the services I provide.

This makes me wonder about liberals. Since education is what is perceived as being necessary to bring people out of poverty, aren't liberal professors that demand higher wages hurting the underclass by making education more expensive for those who can ill afford it? You selfish ba$tards!

Pro Choice
I guess pro choice is only viable when killing the unborn. But if a women has the rights to what happens to her reproductive organs then it would logically be extended to other organs. Once the government opened Pandora's box it was only a matter of time before we got here.
Michael Crichton's book Next addresses these issues as to who owns what. Welcome to the brave new world.

Roe v Wade
If it is my body and I want to sell it ..... or is it just my body when it comes to sex organs?

Questions
How about "Healthy 2 year-old boy, $100,000 cash"? How about "Will euthanize your Grandma for $50,000"? Or "Will burn cross on your black neigbor's lawn, $1,000". Or "Will customize your voting machines to guarantee desired result"? I imagine it is already possible to purchase every known sex service. College term papers are sold online, no problem. The various biological bits necessary for the conception of a child are freely bartered. If you know where to look, it's probably easy to find a hit man and get him to take out your unwanted spouse.

Suppose we privatize fire protection and make it available only to those who can pay for it? Put a hefty price on smallpox/polio/measles vaccination and give the shots only to the children of those whose parents can afford them? Privatize the judiciary and allow trials and judgment only to those who pay their way?

At what point does morality have a place in controlling the free market? Or does it, ever? Is market truly never wrong?

ORGAN DONORS AND PROSTITUTES

.....If a woman ...who owns her own body, as the Libs keep reminding us when she has an abortion ...gives away her sexual favors she is called "liberated" by the feminists ...

.....If however, she requests compensation for her favors ...she is condemned as a sex toy for men who are exploiting her ...

.....This analogy holds true for organ donors ...as long as the donor is willing to donate his/her organ ...they are praised for their altruism ...but if the donor wants compensation then they are guilty of a crime ...

.....In the mind of the Libs (Lilly etal) PROFIT = GREED and greed is profanity to Liberals ...

.....There is a movement afoot to assume that if a person does not specifically refuse to donate their organs ...then the State can just take them by assuming implicit consent ...State approved ghoulism ...Heaven help us! .....COLOSSUS

body parts and free markets
yep the conservative mantra that free markets solve everything (which is obviously false) continues to lead people to immoral and illogical places.

first, is stossel aware that it is the poorest in the world who end up selling their kidneys.

in some of india's poorest provinces, 40% of the population has only one kidney.

next, third world countries are finding some doctors are re-defining death so that they can harvest the organs faster and in better shape.

should humans be allowed to sell off their body parts one at a time.
a cornea here, a finger there-- who will benifit from this slippery slope and who will suffer.


SteveL
OK, a fetus has rights. Then why doesn't (or does she) this fetus at 2 years of age have the right to refuse to eat her oatmeal or spinach and at the age of six decide she doesn't want to go to school any more - having tried kindergarten and found it boring?

Surely a parent has no right superceeding the fetus' rights to make up her own mind about things. The fetus enjoys the rights of any individual to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Toll roads
I have nothing against toll roads in principle but in practice the "free" roads still cost us more and more anyway. Road/gas taxes do not get reduced when a private entity takes over a public road (or builds their own), we just end up paying twice. There may be an argument that it delays a tax hike but why should there be any hike when the government gets the same revenue but has fewer roads to maintain with fewer repairs because they carry fewer vehicles? If we privatized all public roads they'd still come up with a reason to raise taxes - likely to control our driving habits.

A legal non-financial organ incentive
Financial compensation for organ donors would save thousands of lives a year in the United States -- if it was legal. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think Congress will legalize financial compensation in the forseeable future.

Fortunately, there is an already-legal non-financial incentive that can put a big dent in the organ shortage --allocate donated organs first to people who have agreed to donate their own organs when they die.

Giving organs first to organ donors will convince more people to register as organ donors. It will also make the organ allocation system fairer. People who aren't willing to share the gift of life should go to the back of the waiting list as long as there is a shortage of organs.

Anyone who wants to donate their organs to others who have agreed to donate theirs can join LifeSharers. LifeSharers is a non-profit network of organ donors who agree to offer their organs first to other organ donors when they die. Membership is free at http://www.lifesharers.org or by calling 1-888-ORGAN88. There is no age limit, parents can enroll their minor children, and no one is excluded due to any pre-existing medical condition.

Proud Liberal writes
"A real libertarian would support the repeal of laws that make a medical degree the requisite condition to treat patients. Anybody should be able to treat patients if the patient is willing to pay for their services."

Who would be willing to pay for services from an untrained/uneducated, non-degreed physician in today's "developed" countries - not I. I am certainly not an advocate of government intervention, regulations, federal mandates, etc. However, setting aside for the moment the deaths caused by trained physicians - if an untrained/uneducated, non-degreed physician accidently ended the life of his patient because of the lack thereof, then through the left-wing media's rabid need to report on doom and gloom would quickly contribute to this untrained physician's demise - free-market society works either way.

re: Steve
Somewhat ironic to accuse Stossel of weak arguments, and then basically provide no justification of your own position other than that it is "absurd" to believe otherwise. Then you misrepresent Stossel's position. He never says that *anyone* "should" sell his organs, or that *anyone* should be "forced" to do so. He merely states that in a free society, people would have that choice for themselves rather than having the government decide for them. Apparently you believe that you and the government know best what individuals should be doing and what they shouldn't, regardless of whether or not it infringes on your own liberty.

NAFTA trade tribunals seen trumping stat
How does handing over national sovereignty preserve, protect, and defend the US Constitution? Perhaps the Supremes will declare NAFTA/CAFTA/WTO unconstitutional. Paging Ross Perot.

Associated Press: A Canadian company wants to open a new plant in Claremont, N.H., to bottle fresh water from a source in Stockbridge, Vt. But if Vermont wants to limit how much water the [Canadian] company takes, it may run afoul of the North American Free Trade Agreement.

States around the country are growing increasingly worried about the threats posed to their laws and regulations by the secret tribunals that resolve disputes in international trade. Experts say everything from environmental rules to the licensing of nurses and other professionals could be affected.

Vermont is one of seven states to establish committees to study the possible impacts of international trade on their laws. Assistant Vermont Attorney General Elliot Burg said NAFTA and other trade agreements have opened up a path for international companies that want to circumvent state laws they don’t like.

“The issue is not really fair treatment or equal treatment” of domestic versus foreign companies, Burg said. “It’s really, `We don’t like the laws you’re passing.’” States are beginning to take notice.

READ MORE


http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/nafta-trade-tribun als-seen-trumping-state-laws

Stossel the Libertarian
There's a fascinating history of how medical doctors got to be a monopoly in America. At one time anybody could hang out a shingle and offer services. There were electrical cures, water cures, homeopathy cures, snake oil cures. All of whom were very popular. At the bottom of the popularity list were regular physicians who had graduated from Harvard and the like. They had two methods of curing: blood letting and inducing vomiting. Most people hated them.

So the docs decided to try the political route. They inveigled states to pass laws that only certified doctors could be legal curers. The dentists and optometrists fought successfully to escape this urge toward monopoly.

A real libertarian would support the repeal of laws that make a medical degree the requisite condition to treat patients. Anybody should be able to treat patients if the patient is willing to pay for their services.

Most Americans
Most Americans, even college graduates, are illiterate in economics. They believe that if taxes pay for something, then it's free.

How about harvesting embryos?
Here's a question for you social conservatives out there:

About 7 years ago, a company in New Jersey was offering the following deal to poor women: They would pay a woman to be artificially inseminated. After which they would harvest her embryo, which they would use for stem-cell research, destroying it in the process.

OK, would you defend such a practice on the grounds of free-market economics, or ban it on the grounds of peddling flesh?

As I recall, the state of New Jersey decided to ban it.

Stossel is a gifted reporter
Stossel is impressive. I'm reading his book "Myths, Lies,.." and am finding myself now questioning how and why we got into the strange world we have found ourselves in. He's the only guy I know who uses the word "concieted" in describing our pols, lawyers, and it is the perfect description of folks who exert excessive influence on our lives... who don't deserve to!
This column is another of his brilliant essays questioning "how we got here"... He's a brilliant Free Marketeer.

for scooternyc
scooternyc writes: "Why should it be that others get to decide what I want to do with my body?"

Hey, that's what the National Organization of Women and Planned Parenthood have said about abortion too. Since they personally don't regard a fetus as a baby, they ask why should others force them to regard it as such.

Whether a first-trimester fetus should be considered a person is a moral question about which there is considerable controversy about it.

It's interesting how you just justified the pro-choice position. Congratulations.

FREE MARKETS AND HEALTH CARE
Free markets have not been allowed to do their job in health care as they have been with other activities. The American Medical Association (AMA), to which most American physicians and surgeons do not belong, was founded to suppress competition, i.e., chiropractic, homeopathic,and holistic health ideas.

Establishment medicine has long had an incestuous relationship with education, government, and "non-profit" foundations. As a result, the inside of a hospital looks much the way it did 50 years ago. Treatment for catastrophic conditions has changed little over the last 50 years, while quantum leaps have occurred in cosmetic and vision correction surgery, in which the markets take their course.

If true free markets were at work in health care, there would be kinder, gentler, lower cost treatment for catastrophic conditions and less in-patient hospital care.

There are people with the knack for cutting off a leaf and a stem, putting it in water, and watching the root system form. They have a new plant for their garden. If true free markets were at work in medicine, organ transplants would be obsolete. There would be the means for taking a person's DNA and gene patterns and a snippet of that person's tissue and using them to produce a new body part or repair tissue in a laboratory. The replacement parts and repair tissue would be compatible with the patient's body.


Steve
Tell me, are you pro-choice where abortion is concerned?

Insurance Lobby would fight this.
One thing that would change is the donation system in place now.

No more organ donation signatures on driver's licenses. People will simply have their will's drawn up as such that their organs can be "sold" or auctioned off immediately upon death as opposed to simply donating them as they do now.

As far as buying organs, it would seem that the supply and demand factor would cause some organs to be too expensive (heart for example) for any middle class and below to outright purchase and for sure the insurance companies would balk at writing policies that would support such activity.

Maybe the kidney might be affordable for most. Clearly the idea would have way too many regulations etc set up by govt for it to be truly a free market situation by any stretch.

Steve
"How absurd is his argument that he believes that in the ideal world people SHOULD be selling their body parts. It takes prostitution to a whole new level, and yet he states these things in complete seriousness.

Free Enterprise obviously does not "self-regulate" if people are forced to sell their body parts to survive."


Eh? What article have you been reading? Stossel writes that people should be FREE to sell their body parts, not that people SHOULD sell their body parts.

Perhaps you need to enroll in a remedial reading course. Then go take Econ 101.

2 points
1) Larry Niven covered a lot of the "unfree market" (ie black market) concerns in his sci-fi short stories. The suppliers were called "organleggers", and they would (for a fee) find someone of the right blood and tissue types to supply your "need". Capital punishment was the result of conviction for the crime of organlegging, with the organs of all of the condemned going into the organ banks.

2) Ownership of children is implied by the pro-abortion movement. Moral conservatives reject such thinking. Progressives delight in it. (eugenics, anyone? they were seen as logical partners.)

randomthoughts
Are you just blowing steam to hear yourself, or do you actaully have no grasp of reality?

People like you who make inane "duh, well what if..." arguments are like children trying to talk their mommies into buying candy in a supermarket.

Nam65-66, exactly!
Where there is a need there will be a market, whether legal or illegal, it will appear to supply what is demanded. No amount of laws will ever change that fact.

A kidney is not a brain
As usual, John makes another series of weak and disconnected arguments. The straw-men who represent his "against argument" are a letter to the editor and a woman who was selling her kidney. These are pretty easy opponents, since they said nothing specifically about free markets or free enterprise. We are supposed to accept John's inference of what their opinion would be.

All I can say is that if John ever offer's his brain for sale on e-bay, then I wouldn't buy it. Let the buyer beware.

How absurd is his argument that he believes that in the ideal world people SHOULD be selling their body parts. It takes prostitution to a whole new level, and yet he states these things in complete seriousness.

Free Enterprise obviously does not "self-regulate" if people are forced to sell their body parts to survive.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

I might add
To all the insightful comments above, that one sure test of how "enlightened" or "egalitarian" a government policy is, is how effectively the leadership of said government insulates itself from the effects of the decision. As a general rule, the "nomenklatura" in the Soviet Union never had any problems getting things that the average citizen could not obtain. Environmentalist "gurus" have their McMansions, their private jets, and their stretch limos, while everyone else is expected to freeze in the dark.

And does anyone seriously think that AlGore From The Planet Eco would have any trouble at all getting a kidney transplant? After all, he's an Important World Leader. He's entitled to one, so he can live to spread the Gospel Of Doing Things His Way to the Great Unwashed (i.e., all the rest of us who foot the bills).

The present system is hypocritical. But considering the process by which it evolved, this shouldn't surprise anybody.


It doesn't shock me in the least.


cheers

eon

Scooternyc
Thanks. I'm from Jersey. Maybe we are neighbors.

Another example of lib. blindness is NJ voted down a Corzine proposal to study embryonic stem cell research, but the gov., expert scientist that he is, decided the state needs the research anyway--to h*ll with the voters if they don't like what we know is best for them--and Corzine is funding the research center the sheep of NJ had sense to vote against.

Libs. always know what's best for the rest of us who do not see their superiority as clearly.

There is a market for organs...
...and it exists in China,that is Communist and Capitolist at the same time.Prisoners who are excuted have their organs sold to the highest bidders world wide.

Revisit the Dred Scott decision...
...for their definition of "chattel property".Chattel property is property that can be moved such as automobiles,etc,as opposed to "real property",i.e. real estate.

Fair enough
Savage and scotter,

Perhaps I was being to constrained but I was addressing the circumstance of child selling in the specific case of organ harvesting as that appeared to be the context presented. The operable factor is whether or not the rights of the child (or anyone else) are infringed upon by any particular action. Placing the child in the care of others prepared to provide that child with a better life (or, at least, expected to do so) is not such an infringement.

For that matter, the willingness to sell a child may be considered de facto evidence that alternative care might be in that child's best interests. But either inflicting direct harm upon the child or facilitating such harm (such as selling the child to a pedofile) is impermissible in all circumstances as an infringement upon the child's rights.

renny
I like that you write about this "control" that others are constantly trying to enforce onto our nation.

It's an insipid behavior that is so destructive.

Too often though, others don't see how they are also attempting to control others through their own personal philosophy. Much in terms of rationalizing and justification comes into play.

"Well, it's okay that I do this but you shouldn't be doing that" type of thing.

Thanks for sharing your comments.

Wayfinder
"How do you prove that the organ you are selling is rightfully yours? What if you murdered someone for their organs? Would the seller necessarily run a comparison? Would a recipient care so long as the organ functioned without rejection?"

The answer is simple. You can only sell what belongs to you. The only way to prove an organ is your's, is for the doctor to cut you open and remove.

Now, of course the will be people that find ways of selling organs that don't belong to them, but they're already doing that. There is no such thing as a perfect aswer as long as human beings are a part of the equation.

But give me the option to choose for myself what is best for me, and you choose for yourself.

F1etch
It is interesting though that some parents will sell their child as in a surrogate or even give up a child for free as in adoption.

Personal suffering that seeks vengence or retribution often will impede the desire of others who want choice to enrich their lives through purchase of a child. Not so sure this is a bad idea but I'm still mulling it over.

Liberals oppose free economic markets
because they can't control them.

The perfect liberal, nitwit boondoggle is the cutrent gov't craze for ethanol that 1) requires a gal. of oil to make a gal of ethanol, 2) is inflating the corn market and will raise all food products' prices, and 3) takes gallons of water the West of the US doesn't have to produce an "oil" that doesn't even suit all cars.

Ethanol is the PERFECT example of a non-free market that libs. love because it wouldn't exist without gov't subsidy and lib. control.

Randomthoughts
Children are bought and sold all over the world by parents hoping to keep them alive. Prosperity is the natural antidote to trafficking in human life. Parents who can afford it keep their children.

Nos nevets
Your post is the bedrock defense of political and economic freedom, capitalism asit were, that shatters all well-meaning beliefs that govt can solve all our problems. Socialists frget that that peope in govt have the same vices that people in business, except the govvies are unaccountable and can't be fired.

Some great comments
The answer to the question of "how far" is really quite simple. The individual has the right to go up to the point immediately prior to that at which his actions infringe on the rights of other human beings.

The sellimg of a child obviously infringes on that child's rights (and abrogrates enforceable parental responsibility). Animals have no rights as such and so the example is entirely specious.

As for the heart, why not? Consider: a man is diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. His death from the disease will be slow and painful and will render his organs unusable in transplant surgery. But someone offers an alternative that spares him pain, saves another life and ensures the well-being of his family long after he is gone.

The question isn't "how can we let such a horrible thing happen?"; the question is "who the hell are you to interfere in the decision of a free individual that doesn't affect you in any way?" The question is "HOW FAR should you be allowed to go in imposing tour own will upon others?"

Excellent post
"People are hostile towards Free Markets because they don't like the Free Choices that Other People make."

We can name dozens of organizations who spend lots of money, time and unstable emotional cartel on such ideas.

No two philosophies of living need burden one another so long as each retains the freedom of the other to decide for the self which to choose.

Who's minding your business while you're so busy minding everyone else's.

Again - make your choices at no cost to others.

Stossel is spot on!
Why should it be that others get to decide what I want to do with my body?

I've sold my body for thousands of dollars working as a model; my face, my image, my clothes. It didn't hurt anyone and I was able to live, pay taxes, add to the free market by purchasing goods & services I need and want; a solid reciprocity. I live my life at no cost to others.

Condescending to people thinking they are incapable of making decisions for themselves is a superiority ideology.

Freedom is opportunity to make choice - that's what America was founded on.

How did we come to this state of thinking we know how best each individual should live, breath and do with his or her own body.


Any time you are not being given a choice you are being manipulated and controlled.

No one said in life that you're going to like all of the choices before you.

Don't confuse a difficult choice with no choice at all.


Randomthoughts...
Your premise is flawed. For one, children do own themselves but are under the custody of their parents until such time as they are considered of legal age where they can be considered adults. A parent cannot sell their child's organs nor can they sell their child (there is a black market for babies), though they can put their child up for adoption. Once you're a fully grown adult, you can manage what is yours how you please so long as you don't violate the rights of others.

Animals do not fall into the category of a human adult. They do not reason nor make rational, moral judgments necessary to cohabitate in a society, free or otherwise. They are property of their owners. Please refrain from conferring human rights onto creatures that have no such privilege.

In one sense, I can see the merits of the law Stossel cited. If you are able to sell organs, especially for a considerable sum of money, just imagine the grotesque and barbaric racket that can and certainly will result from that. How do you prove that the organ you are selling is rightfully yours? What if you murdered someone for their organs? Would the seller necessarily run a comparison? Would a recipient care so long as the organ functioned without rejection?

As a conservative, and a cheerleader of free markets, I would have to say that there are some things that need legal oversight. However, even in this case, I'm not convinced legal oversight would be effective, given how dismal it has performed in other facets of the market. I know that the market can and does police itself, but this is an area which, if the price is right, any depraved human being would abuse thoroughly at the expense of innocent lives.

Children are treated as property
Whenever you have one of those occasions in which an adoption is overturned and a screaming child is torn from the only family it has ever known, to be handed over to a sperm donor who had once had sex with its mother -- it is because the court has decided which owner has best title to the property, not what is good for the child. If the child owned himself, his interests would be considered first. As it happens, they are not considered at all. The Black Social Workers Organization considers adoption of Black children by White people as genocide (!) and cares nothing at all for the interest of the child -- said child is merely a political playing card or pawn on their presonal chessboard.

So you can drop the use of that tired old exception.

P.S. Using the example of a resentful resident of Kanukistan when discussing free enterprise is specious. Canada is so relentlessly socialist that they dont mind dying on a waiting list as long as a rich person dies five minutes before they do.

Still how far
So in your social construct, kids (children) own themselves. That certainly is not universal. Is it okay for children to be sold in those cultures that treat children as the parents property.

Can you own a chimp? Dog? Pig? Do they own themselves. On what basis to you make such a determination? Can't be by genes or Downs Syndrome children don't qualify.

Or how about those singular organs, can you sell a heart say for $1,000,000 to take care of your spouse and heirs?

Risk, change and envy
Multiple studies show that people are not symmetric in their treatment of risk. They are more concerned about loss than the possibility of gain, even when the probabilities are the same. Consequently, people (all "in general" of course)would prefer to be secure than to risk much for a big gain.

People are also not fond of change. If they're surviving now, better to hold on to that and not worry about the possibility of a better life. These two feed on each other.

Envy is another reason, happily less strident in the US than in, say, Europe. Easier to believe that Bill Gates was 'lucky' than that you were less competent at turning that luck into a fortune.

Put all this together and you get some very strange attitudes. Last year, I read a letter in the town I happened to be in that suggested putting the operation of the ferries under public ownership, "like the post office", because folk who aren't working for a profit can be trusted more. (Probably a spoof, what with that post office line, but I've heard the same sentiment often.)


Free Market Hostility
People are hostile towards Free Markets because they don't like the Free Choices that Other People make.

It's like how nobody likes Congress, but they always re-elect their own Congress-Critter. Everybody completely despises pork spending, except for when their Congress-Critter brings home the bacon.

Everybody wants the freedom to choose their own best course in life -- AND the ability to choose everyone else's as well --

The "kid"
Randomthoughts:

If you are refering to goats, there is no objection to the sale.

If, by chance, you mean CHILDREN, I did not own my children. I had a resposibility for and towards them. They were individual persons and they were never my possesions as goats might be.

John should hve asked Dr. Pereira "how much he would pay for a life saving kidney for himself or a family member?"

randomthoughts -- OH WAIT!
You were talking "kid" as in "baby goat", weren't you? Sure, anybody can sell one of those.

Ok then. In that case, I take back my comments.

randomthoughts -- don't get silly --
The kid is a human being who owns himself. You can't sell what you don't own.

How far?
If you can sell a kidney can you sell a kid? After all some have more than one and some don't have any. The kid could provide the the buyers' old age, saving tremendous social costs.

self interest is inside ALL econ systems
Capitalism is associated with the concept of self-interest. Self-interest is not selfishness, but selfishness is the vice that is a perversion of it.
Socialism pretends selfishness doesn't exist or can be suppressed by a great love for mankind.
How has that worked out?

Looking out for one's own self-interest and even selfishness are part of the human condition. Consequently they pervade ALL economic systems, even ones that are built on some pie-in-the-sky notion that it is not a driving force.

Capitalism accounts for it. Socialisms don't. In capitalism my self interest and selfishness are governed by my own control over my own affairs. I suffer the consequences of bad decisions when I don't make concessions to your self-interest. We are all tiny limited decision makers. Even the rich are limited compared to the decision makers within Socialism.

Socialist decision makers, the bureaucrats, make big decisions about other peoples affairs, and don't suffer the consequences. They are just as subject to selfishness as under capitalism. They can take bribes. They can be selfishly lazy, risky, imprudent. Supposedly they are ruled by their love for their fellow man. Maybe some of them, some of the time. But they are always subject to their own human nature, which includes looking after ones own self interest (a good thing) and selfishness (the vice).
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