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Wednesday, August 22, 2007
John Stossel :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why the U.S. Ranks Low on WHO's Health-Care Study
by John Stossel
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The New York Times recently declared "the disturbing truth ... that ... the United States is a laggard not a leader in providing good medical care."

As usual, the Times editors get it wrong.

They find evidence in a 2000 World Health Organization (WHO) rating of 191 nations and a Commonwealth Fund study of wealthy nations published last May.

In the WHO rankings, the United States finished 37th, behind nations like Morocco, Cyprus and Costa Rica. Finishing first and second were France and Italy. Michael Moore makes much of this in his movie "Sicko."

The Commonwealth Fund looked at Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States -- and ranked the U.S. last or next to last on all but one criterion.

So the verdict is in. The vaunted U.S. medical system is one of the worst.

But there's less to these studies than meets the eye. They measure something other than quality of medical care. So saying that the U.S. finished behind those other countries is misleading.

First let's acknowledge that the U.S. medical system has serious problems. But the problems stem from departures from free-market principles. The system is riddled with tax manipulation, costly insurance mandates and bureaucratic interference. Most important, six out of seven health-care dollars are spent by third parties, which means that most consumers exercise no cost-consciousness. As Milton Friedman always pointed out, no one spends other people's money as carefully as he spends his own.

Even with all that, it strains credulity to hear that the U.S. ranks far from the top. Sick people come to the United States for treatment. When was the last time you heard of someone leaving this country to get medical care? The last famous case I can remember is Rock Hudson, who went to France in the 1980s to seek treatment for AIDS.

So what's wrong with the WHO and Commonwealth Fund studies? Let me count the ways.

The WHO judged a country's quality of health on life expectancy. But that's a lousy measure of a health-care system. Many things that cause premature death have nothing do with medical care. We have far more fatal transportation accidents than other countries. That's not a health-care problem.

Similarly, our homicide rate is 10 times higher than in the U.K., eight times higher than in France, and five times greater than in Canada.

When you adjust for these "fatal injury" rates, U.S. life expectancy is actually higher than in nearly every other industrialized nation.

Diet and lack of exercise also bring down average life expectancy.

Another reason the U.S. didn't score high in the WHO rankings is that we are less socialistic than other nations. What has that got to do with the quality of health care? For the authors of the study, it's crucial. The WHO judged countries not on the absolute quality of health care, but on how "fairly" health care of any quality is "distributed." The problem here is obvious. By that criterion, a country with high-quality care overall but "unequal distribution" would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution.

It's when this so-called "fairness," a highly subjective standard, is factored in that the U.S. scores go south.

The U.S. ranking is influenced heavily by the number of people -- 45 million -- without medical insurance. As I reported in previous columns, our government aggravates that problem by making insurance artificially expensive with, for example, mandates for coverage that many people would not choose and forbidding us to buy policies from companies in another state.

Even with these interventions, the 45 million figure is misleading. Thirty-seven percent of that group live in households making more than $50,000 a year, says the U.S. Census Bureau. Nineteen percent are in households making more than $75,000 a year; 20 percent are not citizens, and 33 percent are eligible for existing government programs but are not enrolled.

For all its problems, the U.S. ranks at the top for quality of care and innovation, including development of life-saving drugs. It "falters" only when the criterion is proximity to socialized medicine.

Next week: the truth about the Commonwealth Fund study.

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John Stossel blogs at http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/ is an award-winning news correspondent and author of Myths, Lies, and Downright Stupidity: Get Out the Shovel--Why Everything You Know is Wrong.
 
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WHO gets it wrong again
Mr. Stossel is to be congratulated on another insightful column. He is absolutely right in pointing out that it is the agenda and NOT the quality of health care. He doesn't point out the lie in our "infant mortality" numbers though. What is ALWAYS not mentioned is the fact that we save babies that would normally be miscarriages in other countries, but often live long enough to be counted in the numbers- and we STILL save more lives than any other country COULD.

Here's something else to keep in mind regarding socialized medicine. The elites and the "friends" of the leaders never have to accept the health care they would relegate to the rest of us. THEY will get what they need or want; the rest of us get what's left. 8-12 hour waiting periods to see a doctor? get used to it. Not surviving your placement on a waiting list for needed surgery? Too bad.

The eftists (the unimportant ones) truly believe that THEY won't suffer with the rest of us. What a hard lesson THAT will be.

Be careful what you wish for....

You don't mean to tell me
that the left uses skewed and biased data to manipulate the public into accepting liberal government policy, do you?

Huh! Who'da thunk it?

Personally, I'm looking forward to having my children's health care run by the government, with the same level of care and skill we've come to expect from the DMV.

Aren't you?

Besides, I'm sure when I'm sitting in the waiting room, I'll see other famous people waiting right alongside me, like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Dick Durbin, Nancy Pelosi, Alec Baldwin, Rosie O'Donnell and Michael Moore, right?

I mean, they wouldn't advocate a system of health care for the little guy while the rich would opt out and get the best care available, would they?

Nah!

On the other hand
If the USA had scored HIGH on the HEALTHCARE run by WHO,,,, I would know our HEALTHCARE was terrible...

Anything that we are praised for by SOCIALISTS is a CON,,,

RUN the other way.

Right again, Stossel
A couple of other tidbits you might have mentioned:

1) The U.S. populaton contains a quite large number of recent immigrants from very poor countries. They skew our health statistics; a lot of the ill health inside our borders actually originated in socialist countries.

2) The movie "Sicko" has been banned in Cuba! It seems that the Cuban hospital portrayed in the movie is a special hospital for foreigners or well-connected officials, and the government doesn't want the commoners to find out about it.

Conservative hypocracy
The word "socialist" gets used quite often at this website and on conservative talk radio, and many of the users of that term are hypocrites.

If not for the "socialist", non free-market laws in many states, many people ( including some of these "conservatives" ), would not be able to get health insurance. Why? In a truly free-market health system, people who have chronic and/or expensive health issues such as heart disease, cancer,etc. would NOT be able to get insurance, because NO insurance company in the world would issue a policy to someone who would cost the insurance company hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of dollars.

Also, hospitals would be able to reject patients without the ability to pay.

Due to "liberal socialist" laws in many states, these "conservatives" with expensive health issues are able to buy health insurance because those states mandate that pre-existing conditions are covered. Federal law also mandates that hospitals cannot turn away patients who are unable to pay.

Liberal hypocracy
Chicago, you are a perfect example of the wrongheadedness of liberal thought.

Because of liberal taxes and regulations, healthcare costs TWICE as much as it should in the U.S.

Because of liberal taxes, about half of our income is confiscated.

So, if it weren't for liberals, we would have twice as much money, and healthcare would cost half as much. We could each afford about four times as much healthcare! That would solve most of the problem.

I have a suggestion for Republicans: refer to nationalized healthcare as "Police State Healthcare". After all, Hitler and Mussolini were big fans of nationalized medicine, as were Stalin and Fidel Castro, and probably Saddam Hussein.

Maybe people like Chicago would be less likely to promote it if it were called by this very accurate term, "Police State Healthcare".

The Truth about Healthcare
The problem is the intellectual dishonesty of lawmakers from both parties on this issue. The real truth is we do have a dysfunctional form of socialized medicine between programs like Peach Care and free healthcare via county hospitals like Grady. And the system will become bankrupt and/or people who do pay via taxes and health insurance will keep seeing the cost go up and quality go down.

You cannot fix a problem with talking points from both sides and not being honest about the issue.

That is why I support mandatory pay health insurance for people who can afford it. We cannot have a system of using tax payers and people who do buy health insurance as an emergency back up plan for people who do not.

We must open up the system to let employers and individual have a choice to buy the same plan lawmakers, vets, and federal workers receive. This would pit private against public insurance—lets see who wins.

We must also eliminate all exclusions, which would encourage preventive medicine which is less expensive and better for consumers. At the same time people must pay extra for life-choice behavior to give an incentive to change bad health choices and promote fitness.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/the-truth-about-healthcare




The Uninsured
I think the fatal error with this article is that this "fairness" bit is actually important -- the comparison is between some sort of average care, which may be badly defined by the WHO or which may not, and maximum care. People do come to the US, as well as several facilities in Europe, for top-notch care, however, the average quality of health care received by Americans is greatly influenced by the uninsured, who receive horrible care. One common criterion that supports that America's system is better than other countries is the short wait for surgeries; I don't know the correct figures, but there's something like how the typical time for surgeries in the US is on the order of weeks and in Canada on the order of months. I hope I have the facts right, there. But of course, it's important to ask how long the uninsured have to wait for their surgeries -- possibly forever, or rather, until they die for lack of that surgery. Thus the uninsured bring down the average health care received by Americans.

I can agree that this average may not be necessarily useful as a quantity of interest, but on the other hand, I'm of the opinion that it is. Every single person in the world should be receiving adequate healthcare, including every single person in our country, and if our system is not allowing for that to happen, then it is broken. Whether it should be public like police, fire, and education or private like gasoline, I don't know -- I'm for public health care, but I understand the arguments against it. And I don't think we ought to care about rankings in anything; we should be first because we'd have the best health care, not because we'd have better health care than other countries. That said, given that so many other countries have been more successful at providing health care than the US has, maybe we ought to learn from what they're doing...

Hmm...
I actually like Newt Gingrich's position on health care. Look it up. Very nice.

This is the ssame thing
I posted in the comments on the last thread about health care comparisons. The only thing he left out was the infant mortality scam. I'm sure the libtards will come back for this one too.

After all, what are you going to believe, your lying eyes are that good communist propaganda.

The U.S. is the best
I have been in the U.S. health Care worl for 25 years now. 23 years of that was in the Navy. I can tell you that Maroco does NOT!!!! rank above the U.S. in it's delivery and quality of health care because I have been there. There is no way that France is above us because I have had to get supplies for the ship over there before and never want to be in one of those Hospitals.

Now that I know that the WHO ranked us so low because we are not a socilized medicine country the ranking makes sence . Before, I was baffeled.

HEALTH CARE AND STATISTICS
Did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the reason people in other countries may seem healthier than Americans is that under socialized medicine only the healthy babies survive? The American health care system has made it possible for underweight preemies and generally sickly babies to survive. They will need ongoing health care for a lifetime.

It is my understanding that in police state health care that underweight preemies and generally sickly babies are not allowed to live. Darwin is alive and well and in charge of police state health care.


Chicago Part I
I agree with the law that says the patient who is at death's door may not be turned away. But for you to insinuate that poor people, or the uninsured, get lousy healthcare is misleading at best. My best friend is un-insured. Her two children (now grown) have never had insurance. Her husband has insurance paid for by the company he works for. He earns around $40K annually. They own and rent out 5 houses in their neighborhood. They own a 2 year old pick-up truck, a 1970 GTO they paid $5K for 6 years ago, and a beautiful theatre style large screen TV. You see, she wanted her children to be on the state insurance plan because she didn't want to HAVE to pay for the insurance offered through her husband's company plan. "It's too expensive." She filled out the paper work, excluding most of her assets of course, and found out that Hubby still earned $5.00 more than the maximum allowable limit. Request denied. Then she was hit with an extremely bad case of a colon related illness, that required immediate surgery. She had a colonectomy at a cost of thirty-five thousand dollars for one week in the hospital and doctor's fees. She managed to convince the hospital to wipe out about half of that debt, and she is making monthly payments for the balance.

Ran
You didn't finish your last sentence.

Chicago Part II
Given the facts of this story, can you please tell me why I'm supposed to let government take over the decision making rights that I have now as to whether or not to carry insurance based on her behavior? After all, she's one of the poor numbers of the "uninsured". I do have insurance, but I pay a very high premium for it. Chances are when I get sick I will get the same level of care as my friend (she was treated VERY well). But the bottom line is that she chose to have many material things immediately instead of carrying the insurance over the long term. My contention is that if we all pay directly for our healthcare, get congress to force the medical schools to stop causing an artifical shortage of doctors, and get the same congress to rescind all of the outrageous paperwork physicians now have to send in, we would have something even the socialist WHO could be proud of.

Ran
I'm sorry Ran but what you are peddling would be better served up at the organic farms to assist your eco-friends. Measurement of infant mortality has a much wider range of differences and it does in fact effect the numbers significantly.

Also, your pathetic attempt to reach some kind of correlation between Southern States with high infant mortality rates with being "Republican States" has about as much correlation as the so called Global Warming correlation with CO2. Could it have anything to do with the fact that these States have a very high population percentage of blacks? Blacks who have a very high percentage of illegitimate births to teenage mothers (75%) which in turn has an impact on infant mortality. Now I'm sure that you will call me a racist for quoting statistics.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA547ComparativeHealth.html

Does anyone ask the doctors?
Isn't it amazing how the leftists always want to distribute without asking the producers? It wasn't long ago that a doctor in the former USSR was getting paid $6 a month.

Oh, yeah. I spent three days in the hospital last week. An ultrasound was done by a Russian technician, his supervisor came from Poland. A CT scan was done by an oriental immigrant. I had nurses from Russia, nursing assistant from Pakistan. Maybe 1 out of three in this VERY white and affluent suburban hospital was American by birth.

Why are these medical professionals coming here? Ya think it's because here they are offered, so far, an opportunity to practice their profession and be justly rewarded? Back in the sixties, when Britain was going more and more socialist, they had what was dubbed the "brain drain." Their best and brightest were coming here.

Over 15 years ago, a doctor told me that many of his colleagues were retiring early and advising their children NOT to become doctors because even then they were fed up with the bureaucracy. It is still better here than anywhere else, but how much more socialism can we stand before the best and brightest we have create another brain drain, this time not moving out of the country because there is no place left to go, but into other fields...like lawyers we so desperately need...fewer of.

One more thing...infant mortality is lowest in those states with large Indian reservations...where infant mortality is more than double the average...and they call their own shots. Maybe this has changed in the last few years since many are making big bucks now with casinos.

In any case, raw statistics can be very misleading, especially when used by those with a hidden agenda, and John Stossel provides a service pointing this out.


Ran
Your friends health care was not *free* -- your friend simply never saw the bill. SOMEBODY ELSE PAID. That is the part that people who live outside socialist health care countries refuse to look in the face.

I am forced by the Ontario government to fork over $900 per year ABOVE the cost of *free* health care as a so-called *health care premium* so that Mrs. Muhammed and her 8 children can run to the ER every time a cloud goes over the sun. I do not need $900 worth of health care a year and odds are pretty good that if I did need it, I would have to go to the States and pay cash for it.

Finally, if you google Quadruplets you will find that a set of Canadian Quads was transported to be born in the USA because there was no neonatal health care available IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF CANADA for them. Yet the town where they were born has a population of 100,000 or so and it had plenty of capacity. The total cost to the Canadian government for this exercise? $215,000 and counting, including air transport for mother and babies the 325 miles between the home of the Quads -- in the richest city in Canada, by the way -- and the small town where they were born.

Yep, if I were going to give birth to quadruplets, I would want to be in a socialist country as opposed to a capitalist country. Heck, why not go the whole way and give birth to them on a Native Reserve? I am sure the WHO would approve.

Ran
The sun comes up in the East and sets in the West.

What's the tax rate in nordic countries?
Free meds and health care for all. Sounds good to me. Do I have to have a job? If I have a job, how much of my income is taken in taxes?


Pollyanna
Yeah, that's right. 70 percent of Americans are convinced America is heading in the wrong direction.

Keep telling them our economy is great and health care system is the best.

All this Pollyanna will be sure to guarantee that Democratic failed policies will be supported by the American people.

Denial is river in Egypt, not a party plank.

Just what do you think the 70 percent unhappy with American direction are unhappy about?

Time to provide something more than Kum bye ah singing about how wonderful life is.

I'm tired
To all you libtards who come here to comment everyday:

Every day you folks come here to a conservative web site and post some of the most outrageous lies. We post rational facts with links to support our facts and you respond with comments to the effect of "we don't care, here's some more lies to support out socialist/communist stance". Well in answer to your continued efforts I will post in a similar vein.

Cuba has a low infant mortality rate because the government run hospitals throw all premature births and low birth weight babies in the trash and feed them to pigs so they are not counted.

Norway has a long lifespan count because they only count people for "old age" once they reach at least 70 years old.

Sweden is rated high in the health care rankings because the Swedish government paid the WHO officers large sums of money under the table to get that ranking.

The WHO ranking system favors Communist and Socialist Systems because it has a built in multiplication factor for these types of systems. (Wait, that is true must delete)

If you don't believe any of these things then I demand proof via "peer reviewed" studies that show them wrong.

As observed
Ran writes: Truth is that even using the maths US uses it was the only industrialized western country that has sen the increase of infant mortality, and who still wouldn't be able to compte with Nordic countries or even European Union.
=================================================


Their health care is so great they wonder if they'll still exist as countries in 40 years.

Illegal aliens sap our medical system
Did they factor in all the free care we are forced to give illegal aliens? Who reads the NYT anyhow?

EQUAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL
A single payer system financed by everyone living in America that:
1. Controls the cost (prices paid) for health care services and product,
2. Allows for reasonable profit of health care businesses (not unbridled, egregious profits,aka,greed) and reasonable fees for service by physicians,
3. Does not attempt to ration health care, i.e., does not view sick people as consumers but rather as patients,
could be a good start to solving our problems in health care. Free market principles allow for greed. Greed cannot be tolerated in health care as it is in other endeavors because health care cannot be treated as a commodity. When that happens, we wind up with our current set of problems. A striking overhaul of our entire health care system is necessary. I offer same in my book, EQUAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL.

R. Garth Kirkwood M.D. http://www.equalhealthcareforall.com

JOHN
I read half of your article and had to have a "JOINT".I honestly had to rejoin my mind to my body!We tell individuals to stop smoking,eat properly,avoid drugs and alcohol.But we don't see how our lifestyles impact our overall health.Why do Americans drive so foolishly?Immaturely of the MALE!Why do we have so many "SHOOTINGS"?Hatred of self and others!The internal and external measures of "HEALTH" appear to be foreign to"US".Costa Rica has better health-care and has a 97% literacy rate.Could their literacy be the reason,that they have less accidents and shootings.Maybe!Sociology and psychology are health contributors, and "MUST" be incorporated in the measuring of and employment of "HEALTH".A mature "SOCIETY", maybe our best response, to a "DYING" Question!!

Free market capitalism
I still support a more free market approach to healthcare. Every choice the government makes is a choice that individuals can't make for themselves, and I trust individuals far more than I trust the government.

Here in the US we have basically the worst of all worlds -- a high amount of government intrusion and regulation into the healthcare system, a tax structure that works against anyone not working for a large employer, little or no competitive and consumer choice to drive down prices, and regulations against association plans and other methods of helping people buy their own health insurance.

Obviously any WHO ranking is going to be biased in favor of more government control, just as if you asked me to rate countries on tax fairness there's going to be a bias towards low taxes, less regulation, and other pro-growth free market economic policies. That's just the nature of the beast. Government bureaucrats will always favor systems which create jobs for government bureaucrats.

One thing I will mention is that it does seem that both sides throw out a lot of ad hominem insults against the other, then claim to be sticking to facts. Sorry folks, but use terms like "libtards" and "Republican-infested" and you can't exactly take the intellectual high ground. Simply saying you're arguing based on facts instead of insults doesn't make it so.

WHO and Doctors Without Borders
Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) works in areas of Africa, the Americas, Australia, Asia, and Europe where it has found services inadequate to meet a population's medical needs.

Out of the top 50 from the WHO 2000 report, the follwing nations have received assistance from Doctors Without Borders. WHO ranking at left, details link at right.

#1 FRANCE YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/france.cfm

#2 ITALY YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/italy.cfm

#7 Spain YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/spain.cfm

#10 Japan YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/japan.cfm

#20 Switzerland YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/switzerland.cfm

#21 Belgium YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/belgium.cfm

#22 Colombia YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/colombia.cfm

#29 Morocco YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/morocco.cfm

#49 Malasia YES http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/malaysia.cfm

CORRECTION
It should have read Immaturity of the MALE.My body and mind are not fully "REJOIN"!

re: doctork
What are "reasonable" profits? If the healthcare industry is guaranteed a "reasonable" profit, what would be the incentive to develop anything new and innovative in terms of healthcare treatment?

It seems to me that a profit motive (I don't consider it "greed" unless someone is willing to use fraud, coercion, or some sort of unfair competitive practice) is what spurs new drugs and treatment options. If I need a medical procedure, I don't care how "greedy" the doctor is, I just care how competent he is in providing me with care.

Why?
I worked for a state agency that gave us very generous health care and sick time. Most employees banked those sick days and figured they would come in handy if ever they really got sick. A smaller number of people used their sick time as earned, never accumulating any. When the eventual real illness happened they had no sick time left and then asked for their coworkers to contribute their banked sick time as allowed under union contract. Compassionate coworkers would then give away their earned sick time to the ailing person.

The morale of this story: Some people will always expect others to bail them out even after they've abused a system which gave them the resources to weather the storm themselves. Interestingly, those abusers were always the loudest liberals in the workplace. Why do liberals think they can go though life without exercising responsibility and then expect others through compassion to help them?

Ran writes:
Inside US the highest infant mortality rates are in the republican infested states: Arkansas, -South Carolina, Tennessee, Mississippi and Louisiana.

Maybe that is because these states actually deliver rather than abort babies. If you add abortion to infant mortality I'm sure states like NY and CA would be higher than they are. Let's face it there is no perfect health care system and any attempt to create a government system will end in failure because it will turn into a large bureaucracic mess like everything else the govt touches. Do you really want the people who have done such a great job with public education running health care. The U.S. has the highest standard of living of any country on Earth. But that doesnt matter to the libs because citizen A can't pass off his medical costs to citizen B. Adam Smith said it best over 200 years ago "There is no free lunch somebody pays." Question for Ran and other like minded citizens what are you willing to give up for "free" healthcare? Police & fire protection, roads, clean water, first rate military. Everything has its costs. Before we go down that road we better think of what the long term costs will be.

John Stossel must have read my posts...
...from yesterday. :) What he states about WHO is absolutely correct, and unfortunately, WHO's findings are used in some of my masters classes when I got my MHA. Vic, another good point about the infant mortality rates. Another point tied to the numbers is the fact that far more people are born in the US than those higher ranking countries, which automatically skews the numbers because more infant deaths will occur when you have far more of them.

Ran wrote: "The states that have a) highest infant mortality, b) highest amount of teenage pregnancies, c) highest amount of divorces and d) are the fattest of all, are inavraibly republican infested." True facts, but you should know that all of the states you listed have a large black population as well as a larger population of lower income families. The culture from this population has does not promote healthy behaviors, nor is physical health a primary consideration. Again, those rates you mentioned will be skewed because of the differences in population...WHICH HAS NOTHING to do with political affiliation.

hospital costs
The big reason why medical care is so expensive is the cost of hospitalization. Because of the extremely high liability insurance premiums and the number of people who don’t pay, hospitals recoup their losses by passing them on to paying customers (or, most often, the insurance companies of the paying customers).

Several years back, I was told to have an MRI of my brain and cervical spine. My insurance coverage was strictly catastrophic, which meant that I’d be paying out-of-pocket for the test, so I decided to find out if it would be cheaper to have it done through a private radiologist. It was—in fact, it was $1200 cheaper.

by the way...
... note that most of those so-called "Republican infested" states currently have Democratic governors. In Arkansas, not only the governor but both senators and I think both state legislative bodies are Democratic, there's a Democratic governor in Tennessee, a Democratic governor and legislature in Louisiana (and their Republican senator is the first since Reconstruction), and Georgia's current governor is the first Republican governor since Reconstruction. So perhaps you should re-think that argument.

Roadkill
You may wish to consider abortion as part of the infant mortality statistic but, in fact, it is not. Infant mortality is about whether born babies receive medical care adequate to save their lives. And it's been clear now for decades that those rabid to overturn Roe v Wade care nothing for children after they're born. When attempts are made to provide universal medical care to pregnant women so that they'll have healthy babies, or universal free well-baby care, or home nurse support to new mothers, or regulated and financially accessible day care for the babies and children of working mothers, you folks just scream "Socialism! Communism!" and never mind about the children.

A solution
The Democrats (mainly Hillary) have a solution: high taxation. Now the only thing they have to do is find a problem for it.

for chicago: You're nuts
chicago writes: "In a truly free-market health system, people who have chronic and/or expensive health issues such as heart disease, cancer,etc. would NOT be able to get insurance, because NO insurance company in the world would issue a policy to someone who would cost the insurance company hundreds of thousands and maybe millions of dollars. "

I see! So the first time you're diagnosed with cardiac arrhythmia or prostate cancer or cervical cancer, you get a notice from your health insurance company telling you that they're dropping your coverage??? What would you do then? Voluntarily euthanize yourself to avoid being a burden on society? What if you give birth to a child with an expensive congenital birth defect? Again, you get a notice from the insurance company telling you that you're on your own with that kid?

Do you even THINK for 30 seconds before you post?

The whole idea behind health insurance is to SPREAD risk around as large a premium as possible. True, in other forms of insurance like auto insurance, those who are deemed high risk have to pay a significantly higher premium. But they are still covered. Why? Because if you ever get into an accident with an uninsured driver, you and your insurance company are left totally holding the bag--which is even more expensive.

Increasingly modern conservatives sound like a combination of fascists and Ebenezer Scrooge. Who would want to be associated with a political movement based on bitterness?

for chicago: You're still nuts
chicago writes: 'Also, hospitals would be able to reject patients without the ability to pay."

And where should such patients go? Should they just die of their illnesses and stop being a burden on society that way? Are conservatives like you embracing Social Darwinism now? Gee, the wheel has really come full circle, hasn't it?

Something tells me you're going to be visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve:


"If they are going to die, they had better do it and decrease the surplus population"
-- Ebenezer Scrooge

Mamadoc
This issue has come up repeatedly on 60 Minutes: hospitals bill ridiculously high amounts to insured patients because they have to cover th cost of the non-insured. Also, I have observed that Corporate America has pre-packaged hospital care in ways guaranteed to multiply profits. Example: last spring when my husband was very ill in the hospital he was allowed nothing to eat or drink for several days and his mouth was very dry. I asked the nurse if it would be OK if I wet his mouth a little bit. She said no, she would page the Oral Hygiene Specialist. After a while here came that person, bearing equipment. She opened large plastic bags and unreeled yards of plastic tubing which she plugged into the wall. This provided her with a spray and a suction (like dentists use) and with her hi-tech traps she refreshed my husband's mouth. In fact, any nurse (or any wife) could have taken a piece of cotton and a cup of water and done the same thing. I don't know how her services were billed: the insurance company paid the bill. But I saw this episode as an example of why hospital costs are so high.

Argument against Social Medicine
I'll try to offer an argument against socialized medicine that even the socialistist (that's most socialist for those with government educations) amongst us can understand.

Let's suppose we adopt this utopian system. Hillary is President, Edwards is VP, Pelosi is Speaker, and rainbows are over every town, city, and burrow in America. Eveyone gets free health care and the government pays for it.

Then, the Repuglicans pull a fast one. They lock all the black voters in their homes on election day. They encourage the military to vote. They pay off Diebold to rig the results. They intimidate the Supreme Court to rule in their favor when challenged. They get control of the House, the Senate, the White House, and the Court.

They cut all funding to healthcare. All the government doctors are fired. All the hospitals are closed.

What happens to everyone then? How can we function without this miraculous gift that has suddenly been taken away?

Lilly
What you describe is the result of lawyers like John Edwards, not the desire of medical staff.

Phylo, again, you fail to see
That current government interference in health care has made it expensive for the consumers and the providers (i.e., hospitals, physicians, etc.). In my state, certificates of need (CON) have to be submitted by any health related business to the state any time the business wants to expand its current facilities, modernize them, or build new ones. The cost of submitting these CONs are 10% of the gross cost of the project!!! That means if you have a $120 million dollar proposal, you have to fork over $12 million to the state. An absolute scam by our state government!!!

Our society is also a VERY litigious one, with many citizens suing doctors and hospitals. Malpractice insurance for physicians have annual premiums of over 100K in many cases. Therefore, physicians have to charge more for their practice. (to be cont'd.)

Percentages, yes
Phylo, get a clue. Percentages are also affected by the actual totals, especially when you have a much larger population in the US as opposed to France, which is the population equivalent of one state.

for Beckie
Beckie writes: "Given the facts of this story, can you please tell me why I'm supposed to let government take over the decision making rights that I have now as to whether or not to carry insurance based on her behavior? After all, she's one of the poor numbers of the "uninsured""

Here's why:

Those who are uninsured have no incentive to see physicians on a regular basis for checkups, vaccinations, routine medical tests. They can only scrape together enough money to go to a doctor when the crisis becomes too great to be ignored. The mindset of ignoring routine maintenance and waiting till something really bad happens is what leads to truly expensive disasters. And that drives up total health care costs for the whole society.

For example, routine mammograms could catch breast cancer early enough that a simple and relatively inexpensive lumpectomy will cure. whereas if the uninsured don't have those tests because they can't afford them, then they may wait till the cancer is so advanced that treatment becomes both far more expensive and less likely to reach a cure. For example, that happened to Jennifer Lyon, a recent contestant on the TV show Survivor, who prior to going on the show had been unemployed and uninsured for a long time and couldn't afford routine medical tests for herself. Now she's battling Stage III metastatic cancer.

If you want to reduce overall health care costs, you have to pay for preventive medicine UPFRONT. And that means making it cheap enough for you to have all the recommended routine medical tests and periodic physical examinations.

More health care facts
Government interference also regulates how we actually dispense health care. EMTALA laws, as I've mentioned earlier, require any patient to be treated by a physician or hospital if they are 200 yards away. So, as Rob mentioned before, anybody with a runny nose or headache HAS to be seen by a medical professional in the ER. Many people abuse this law, sometimes making the hospital their social outlet and second home. Consequently, costs rise dramatically, which have to be picked up by taxpayers (since most of the patients are on Medicaid).

Socialistest
Sorry, that should have been "socialistest", not "socialistist". My own government schooling is showing through. Spell check didn’t catch that one, either. Microsoft needs to update their dictionary.

If a Republican administration is solely responsible for messing up FEMA, imagine what would happen to socialized medicine under the scenario I outlined?

Phylo
But you're failing to see that the disadvantages of the quality of health care far outweigh the benefits under a single-payor system. In matters of tort, people won't be able to sue doctors at all because they would be a government entity, and this causes complete unaccountability for physicians. People still need to hold doctors accountable for negligence, but they need to do so responsibly. What you advocate would be equivalent of government medical tyranny.

True, CONs would be unnecessary since the government would control all health care facilities. But how responsive will the national system be to an underserved area? Will they concentrate their efforts in building modern facilities that cater to the patient? Will they enforce high customer service standards? I highly doubt it.

The system cannot be a completely free enterprise system, but there needs to be drastic cutbacks in government interference. That is all I'm proposing.

for drivebyposting
"Just what do you think the 70 percent unhappy with American direction are unhappy about?"

1. Iraq
2. The resurgence of al-Qaeda
3. Bush

re: phylo
And where would the incentive be for innovation, for new drugs and healthcare methods that would save lives in the future?

By the way, read the opinion that the Canadian Supreme Court rendered, I think either last year or the year before, on the single payer system there and how it results in deaths due to rationing of healthcare, which is the inevitable result of government monopoly.

Response to Phylo
Firstly, I find it humorous that Mr. Se Fiser is upset, not with the one-sided study whose authors profess to be factual and unbiased, but with Mr. Stossel, who writes what he would freely admit is a column which uses truthful information and opinion to advance the libertarian point of view.

Secondly, Mr. Se Fiser refuses to look at the cause of disparities in costs for health care. He refuses to acknowledge, for instance, that most of the disparity in drug costs in the U.S. as opposed to other countries is due to price controls and the consequent necessity for companies to recoup costs by charging American customers as much as possible.

I do agree that Americans are getting ripped off, mostly by the massive overhead costs that regulations force on doctors (malpractice insurance is a good chunk by itself) and pharmaceutical companies (dealing with the FDA).

Of course, being rich is an advantage when purchasing health care, as when purchasing any other commodity. I would imagine that even under a "universal" system, a wealthy person could manage to purchase better care for himself. But Mr. Se Fiser has failed to note that any government-run enterprise (I know, that was an oxymoron) also denies coverage when possible, as HMO's have done. He has failed to show any advantageous side to government health-care besides our being able to feel groovy about being "covered."

Lastly, even a free-market absolutist agrees that it is a person's right to engage in an unprofitable enterprise, such as a charity, if he judges that the profit motive does not work in a given situation, such as treating the poor. The difference is that a free-market absolutist would not force his fellows to give money to an unprofitable enterprise, especially one which is run inefficiently--the way government-run health-care systems are.

"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free." - P.J. O'Rourke

Michael Moore missed a few
Propagandist Michael Moore missed a few cases when filming his mockumentary.

British socialized dentistry is forcing people to yank out their own teeth because they have no access to a dentist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1304654400&en=a066e5f718907b88&ei=5090

Canadian man has to go to the US to get care for a brain tumor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEq64W0_wUI

Private hospitals in Australia are gaining ground over the socialized ones. Here's a quote from the article..."Patients are having to wait up to three months for urgent heart surgery at St George Hospital, which is another of the area health service's hospitals."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/private-hospital-eyes-public-bed-space/2007/08/16/1186857683370.html

Canadian parents in Calgary (1 million population)have to go to small city in Montana to get health care for their quadruplets.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/08/canadas_universal_health_care.html

And let's not forget how well government health care is doing at the Walter Reed Army hospital!

As Stossel says.."Give me a break" from socialized medicine!


for Rob
Rob writes: "Stop with the drama. By law noone can be turned away from an emergency room, and no matter what plans are in effect this will not change."

I know that. Believe me, I know a lot more about this issue than that "chicago" feller.

But it's clear that if he had his way, all such laws would be repealed because he doesn't understand how insurance even works in a free market. I think he finds the whole concept of an insurance pool too "socialistic" for his taste.

The sheer level of ignorance I see coming from some "conservatives" is just stunning. And it's ignorance driven by an obvious "f**k everybody else" attitude in which the idea that we have any responsibility at all toward our fellow citizens is ridiculed.


You misunderstand
Check the birth rates of both countries: United States = 14.14%. France = 11.99%. By statistical analysis, a higher birth rate gives more probablity of a higher infant mortality rate. As indicated earlier, this country medically treats preemies and births more of them than France.

it's th LAWYERS
Reading through all of these posts I haven't seen one poster blame the LAWYERS for out of control healthcare costs. Why do doctors run so many unneeded tests? LAWYERS Why do hospitals charge so much for their services? LAWYERS Why do the drug companies charge so much for their medications? LAWYERS

If it wasn't for LAWYERS, prices would still be low. If it weren't for LAWYERS in their mature state as JUDGES handing out outrageous sums to people that happened into the statistics (1 in 10,000 people will have an adverse reaction to...). If it wasn't for LAWYERS in their mutated form as LEGISLATORS, we wouldn't have hade wage controls that brought us 'benefits' in the workforce.

Once people learned that 'they' didn't have to pay the doctor bills, the insurance companies would, they started going to the doctor for every little thing. Supply and demand took over from there, but 'who cares? I don't have to pay for it, the insurance companies do'

Ron-servative
Good point about the lawyers. Don't forget that the US is one of the few countries that does NOT have a "loser pays" legal system. Much more frivolous lawsuits aiming at a big jackpot shared by lawyers on a contingency basis who will eat you alive during the discovery process.

Mauro
Re "People come to the United States for top-notch care"---yes, for years this has been true, but now there is a new phenomenon of Americans going abroad for top-notch care---that they can afford. There was something on TV about this a couple of days ago. Also, I saw a piece in the paper within the last year. Also, I had a personal friend from Hungary who returned to Hungary for extensive dental work done so much more cheaply than the same work have cost here that the difference paid for her trip and her expenses for a month in BudaPest. Plastic surgery travel "packages" are growing popular. We should give up the idea that the United States is the only country in the world where good medical care is available---and it's more affordable just about anywhere else. And BTW, anti-abortion folks, if you manage to overturn Roe v Wade here, how long do you think it will take for somebody to package travel excursions to abortion-friendly countries?

Ron-servative
Did you miss my posts? Like I said before, we have become a litigious society where everyone can get a lawyer for just about everything. Lawyers are heavily involved in the health care system from hospitals assorting contracts for CONs, physician salaries, human resources, and HMO reimbursement to tort lawyers defending or prosecuting physicians.

Insurance companies are starting to become obsolete entities in the free-market system. Health savings accounts can really be the next step in ensuring that people have access to care but use it responsibly. HSAs can't be selective in their risk pool either; they become individual "health investments".

Ron-Servative
I read somewhere that the first thing they teach you at the Harvard School of Business is that "Market is Never Wrong". So lawyers wouldn't be selling something that nobody was buying, if you follow me. We are a society that wears T-shirts saying "Don't Get Mad---Get Even". We are a litigious, greedy, score-evening society. Not long ago when there was a bus crash in my city, people who had not even been on the bus before the crash were photographed climbing aboard after the crash so they could lie down on the bus floor and start moaning (and sueing). This is not to say that lawyers are not sometimes rats---but then, isn't the free market was supposed to be a public virtue? There's money in them thar lawsuits.

Phylo
I can't believe I'm arguing a statistical law called probablity. I get your point about mere percentages, but my point is that you're comparing apples to oranges. A more suitable comparison to infant mortality rate in larger countries would be comparing the US to Indonesia, which is the closest in terms of population.

BS call
"AudiR
It is of course horrible socialism that some poor git isn't forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars personally. Hopefully some day your family faces a health crisis and is forced to pick the tab in full...

And nice racist touch you got there talking about Mrs. Muhammed, after all, her children are only muslims so why would we provide them with health care to begin with.

Move to USA if you hate your country that much OR change your government. But majority of Canadians have voted for that system and YOU will happily use it when the time comes, won't you? "


The simple fact is this "poor git"'s health care bill is HIS responsibility, NOT MINE. If I get sick, my bill will be MY responsibility, not yours.

And as for your comment about Muslims, I wouldn't provide a Muslim with health care --every time a Muslim dies, the world is a better place.



SteveL
RE the philosphy of "People shouldn't go to the emergency room unless they can pay for the care": Maybe you missed the townhall post the other day that read, "So what if companies flood the market with toxic goods---why should this be the business of anyone but the stockholders in the company?". Then there was "Here's how to catch illegal immigrants---wait until they go to an emergency room then grab them, load them into vans, and head south for the border. This method could also be used to catch illegal immigrant children showing up for school." Or "We should nuke every country that has Muslims living there" and "I have no problem with nukes as long as they're somewhere else." Nothing beats a little light summertime reading on townhall.

Lilly
Still pushing that canard about the overturning of Roe resulting in elimination of all abortions. Overturning Roe would simply restore it to where it should be, in the hands of the State Legislators. In some States such as Liberfornia you would be able to get one for any reason up until just before the umbilical was cut and in some States like Religiosina the only reason you would be able to get one would be for rape and only during the first week of pregnancy. Most would be somewhere in the middle.

As for the lawyers, nothing could be further from "free market" than ambulance chasing lawyers. Lawyers are the antithesis of free marker principles and your reference only shows that you have no idea how the free market is supposed to work.

To Stossel
Re "When is the last time you heard of an American going abroad for medical treatment?": Tsk tsk, Stossel, didn't anyone teach you to do research before you write? A simple google informs me that last year 150,000 Americans went abroad to get needed medical care for up to 85% lower cost than here. Somebody's written a book on the subject, "Patients Without Borders".

RE: Lolly
It is a violation of the law in every state in the United States to deny someone needed medical care, even if that someone cannot afford to pay.

In other words, 100% of the people in the US, citizen or not, "has access to medical care".

Health care is not health insurance
Why is there so much debate over who has health insurance?

I can understand buying catastrophic health insurance to spread the risk of getting rare diseases that require expensive treatments.

But routine checkups and minor illnesses should be paid for out of pocket. Does anyone buy oil change insurance for their car?

Insurance is for things that we expect never to happen. Health care for most people, especially the elderly is something that is hard to avoid.

The question should be…

If sick people don't want to pay for their health care then who should pay for it?

Health Insurance Across State Lines
The article repeats the falsehood that current state regulation of health insurance is "forbidding us to buy policies from companies in another state". Not so; an insurance company in any state can qualify to do business in any other state. This is a Beltway-manufactured argument for centralizing health insurance regulation in Washington. Of course, the insurance companies would love this; easier to grease a few palms in one place to buy the right regs. Just look at what happened when credit cards came under federal regs--banks can and do get interest rates which were not only prohibited by state law, but constitute felony criminal usury ("loansharking") in many states. Our only hope is to keep Washington OUT of our health insurance; there is at least some hope that individual states will find the right course. There is no hope that our coin-operated Congress will do anything right.

How many illegals in WHO survey?
How many people are counted in the USofA medical demographics that got horrible health care in other countries and then came here illegally and died.

How many of the downside statistics re US healthcare come from a population that is here illegally and who should not be counted at all.

Take away the illegal population and our health care stats would soar.

This is obvious. Its a wonderment that the columnist did not even mention this.

RE: Ran
So far as I can tell, the CDC doesn't publish infant mortality data on a state-by-state basis, therefore your claim that "Republican infested states" have a higher infant mortality rate is uverifiable. Care to produce a source?

More Right Wing B.S.
[But the problems stem from departures from free-market principles.]

This really begs the question of whether we want a free market healthcare system. Such a system would truly be one of getting the health care you pay for. And it truly would turn into a system of: If you are poor and you get sick, you die. Most importantly it would become a system of: if you are poor and your kid gets sick, your kid dies.

Of course this is the norm in the third world. Universal health care is a luxury only wealthy nations can afford. In most of the world, the rule is: if you get sick, you die.

Stossel's argument just supports my contention that the right wingers just want to turn the United States into some third world dump -- a system of haves and have nots. However, they should not be too quick to desire third world status for the United States; third world countries are prone to violent revolutions, where the wealthy not only have their wealth confiscated, but usually are killed in the process as well.

We had a free market in health care in the 19th century. We did not like it very much. In fact, it seemed to spawn revolutions in nations which were less stable than the United States -- Russia, China, France, Germany. Stossel's desire to return to the 19th century makes him a reactionary and not a conservative.

At least Stossel admits that our government is up to its neck in healthcare and that it looks nothing like a free market system. He loses sight of the fact the reason the government is so deeply involved is that the American people simply would not tolerate a free market in the healthcare.


Well Done!
I had a sneakin' hunch about that newspaper article from the New York Crimes. I look forward to next weeks article.

Jersey48
Actually you are wrong. See Monday's WSJ on this subject. California currently is debating Arnold's health care plan at a cost of 12 billion. One of the biggest problems pointed out by Americans for Free Choice is the lack of competition allowed into the state. Currently out of state insurance are not allowed into this state.

High Plains Lawyer
Baloney! Since no one legally can be denied healthcare due to cost. It has been that way for decades. Come out of the 19th century.

High Plains Lawyer
Well, I believe having a lawyer is also a necessity. Why don't we have government mandated lawyers with set salaries and profit margins determined by law review committees set up by consumer advocates.

Capitalism and Rewarding Success
What the socialists always fail to understand is capitalism is a natural state of human behavior -in America we a have (for the most part) an excellent bunch of professionals nurses, doctors, therapists etc. The loons forget that these folks are paid very well for their expertise (unlike the socialized med countries). And the loons forget to mention the biggest factor in socializing medicine (controlling wages of healthcare providers - hospital's largest single expense is payroll and fringe benefits)will take the incentive out of our best and brightest to enter healthcare as a profession(remember - Britian's best and brightest doc's have a nasty tendency to immigrate to America - as do India's, China's,(heck go to your local hospital's physician directory and tell me how many DR. Patel's you have working there).

Take out the financial rewards of difficult career path like healthcare and you can bet we really will an awful healthcare system. Maybe Michael Moore can do his own angioplasty when that time comes.

RE: Phylo
"You can rationalize this all you want but that one statistic tells basically the whole story: We're getting ripped off, big time."

Indeed. According to ConsumerAffairs.com ( http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html ) that ripoff is in the administrative costs. Tell me, do you think putting an even LARGER bureaucrisy on top of our health care system will "fix" that? Hasn't worked for public education (only 35% of the money spent on public goes to pay for administration, as opposed to the 15% spent on private schools going to pay for administration).

In fact, Stossel DOES highlight that problem in the sentences following the one you highlighted. The problem that you are so much of a communist shill that you think that increasing administrative costs isn't the problem, but the SOLUTION!

"A free market system for health care is just plain stupid because the incentives are in all the wrong places."

Can you name JUST ONE incentive the government has to providing good health care?

"I'm all for free markets in most areas. But health care, education, police and fire, the military; these are areas where the profit motive ends up making things worse, rather than better."

Hmmm, let's see, companies make a profit when they provide a service that people want to buy. People won't buy a product if its junk, thus there's an incentive to make a quality product.

The incentive for the government to provide a quality product would be....um....gee....hmmm....can you think of any incentive? I know I can't.

RE: Phylo
"How about if you explain why European countries are providing all of their citizens with full health care coverage for about half the cost, per-capita, of the United States, which only provides coverage (not necessarily full coverage) to 85% of it's citizens."

Which is, in and of itself, a lie. For example, France only provides coverage for 80% of their citizens, and that coverage is very lacking, with 92% of the population actually having to go out and buy ADDITIONAL coverage on stuff that their government doesn't provide.

Kinda' puts a dent in your argument, now doesn't it?

The 'money' line of the article
"The WHO judged countries not on the absolute quality of health care, but on how "fairly" health care of any quality is "distributed."

In other words, we rank 38th because we're not as communist as WHO thinks we should be. WHO, like all faithful communists, would rather see everybody equally miserable than see some people happier than others. They would rather see everybody equally poor than see some people richer than others. They would rather see everyone get equally lousy health care than see some get better health care than others.

WHO's study is communist propaganda. Nothing more. No wonder Michael Moore likes it so much.

20 years at a hospital...

I have never seen anyone turned away.

That fancy heart surgeon the rich people stand in line for... He also must treat the uninsured, with more sympathy to boot. I see it every day.

Actually, the uninsured recieve "Special" care. The hospital staff assumes "uninsured" means "Stupid", and therefore explains procedures better, spends more time with caretakers, etc.

Most of the uninsured are eligible for medicaid and other plans, free of charge. The reasons people do not sign up is... They are wanted felons, illegal immigrants, dysfunctional, or plain mentally ill. There are millions like this.

It is not as bad as it looks. If you do not have insurance... don't take ID, call yourself Bob Smith, claim you have no address, no SSN, and no family. You will recieve all the care you need and no one will track you down for the bill.

I see it every day.

High Plains
Spoken like a true lawyer and liberal to manipulate and twist the words of Stossel. He's not proposing a complete free-enterprise health care system. Current EMTALA laws, which you should know as a lawyer, prevent anybody (citizen or illegal alien) from being denied health care.

Just like any other industry, there needs to be standards and regulations for health care, but currently, the system is fraught with bureaucracy, litigation, and excessive costs. Eliminating some government interference would counteract those facts.

Lolo-Vic-ICBMMan
Haven't You Learned by Now! You can’t use FACTS when Debating a Liberal, you have to use FEELINGS!

Just so you know
lilly writes: "When is the last time you heard of an American going abroad for medical treatment?": Tsk tsk, Stossel, didn't anyone teach you to do research before you write? A simple google informs me that last year 150,000 Americans went abroad to get needed medical care for up to 85% lower cost than here.
=================================================

Just wondering - how many of those people were going abroad for cosmetic surgery. So I looked it up:




According to the American Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgery, in 2002, 6.6 million Americans went in for cosmetic surgery in the US itself. They were also the biggest chunk of foreign customers for cosmetic surgeons in Thailand, Malaysia and South Africa. These three countries, between them, pulled in over 100,000 Americans seeking cosmetic surgery.

=================================================

So a nurse in Malaysia can do a boob job cheaper in her apartment then a surgeon can in a clinic in New York. Wonder who you sue when you get back from Malaysia with two lefties?

High Plains Lawyer writes:
OK, just for fairness I'll agree to the idea of having government healthcare instead of free market healthcare if you agree to the following;

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg18v4b.html

20 years at a hospital
Ahh Carlos,
I casually skimmed through the entire postings only to find at the end someone has succinctly told the truth and done it well. Thank you.

I do legal video and I also see it everyday as I sit in depositions and witness the scum of the earth lawyers using the most ridiculous claims to try and squeeze money out of every pocket that can be remotely connected in any way to their ridiculous claims.

When Stossel says our health care system has "serious problems", he isn't talking about quality or delivery. He is talking about the financial end and his point is that all the problems are caused by government interference induced by socialist thinking.

Who is getting ripped off?
Phylo
"You can rationalize this all you want but that one statistic tells basically the whole story: We're getting ripped off, big time."
=================================================

Last year my son saw 4 neuro specialist. He was hospitalized 7 times, underwent surgery 4 times and spent two weeks in a PICU, my cost $2000. Blue Cross paid out well over $600,000. This year they are getting off light and total medical expenses will "only" be around $200,000 or so. In the past 5 years his bills have been well over $1,500,000.

Who got screwed on that deal?

I've been online in a support group with parents experiencing the same medical issues with their children, the stories they share from England, Canada and Russia make me thank God that I live in the country that the WHO ranked 37th. Without a doubt being a resident in any of their "better" ranked countries would have resulted in his death. That's not a statistic but a fact.

Lilly is confused
Going abroad for cheaper dental work and elective or minor surgery does not equate to better health care. It is just making efficient use of financial resources.

I may get my oil changed at jiffy lube but when I need engine work done I take my car to a dealer.

The fact remains that many people came from my homeland, Australia, to the US to seek out treatments that were not available in the two tier system available in Australia. Others have made the same point about immediacy of treatment options available in the US.

The US system is not perfect but the US system drives the healthcare engine of the world, and picks up the slack of the other countries.

Medical litigation, Part 1
There was a time when malpractice insurance wasn't prohitive, meaning it didn't drive the cost of health insurance up to where the avergae head of a household couldn't afford it for his family. Meaning it didn't drive entire segments of the health care industry out of areas, such as when there were virtually no OB-Gyn's in Mississippi a few years back.

This is what changed.

Judges used to to throw out lawsuits that complained about less-than-perfect outcomes of medical care if the provider (doctor) could show that current medical practices and procedures had been competently administered. In other words, providers were required to be competent, not make the patient's best-case hopes become a reality.

Today judges allow suits to proceed virtually anytime a patient is not completely satisfied. They are reluctant to not give an unhappy patient a hearing before a jury.

The second thing that has happened is an explosion in the propensity of juries to award punitive damages. In a case where a provider makes a good faith effort and comes up short Compensatory damages should be sufficient. But many 'greedy' lawyers (like John Edwards) know that real gold mine is in punitive damages, which allegedly are intented to punish providers for unethical conduct or gross negligence, but which too often devolve into courtroom dramatics designed to elicit not just sympathy from jurors, but also anger at the provider.

Before Tort Reform (a GWB initiative) there was no cap on punitive damages.

Free market better start working fast
"First let's acknowledge that the U.S. medical system has serious problems. But the problems stem from departures from free-market principles...People come to the United States for treatment. When was the last time you heard of someone leaving this country to get medical care?"

Yes, some people are more equal than others. The private health care
system better get its s*&! together or it will soon realize it doesn't exist
thanks to democracy and representative government deciding it would
actually be cheaper to have socialized medicine. Departures from the
free market have not led to higher rates of birth fatalities or life
expectancy since countries with no free market have better rates than
our mixed market. Although many come here for the best care in the
world - those that can afford it - many Americans have to look
elsewhere for cheaper medical care. Other countries per capita
health care expenses are less than ours and have better care in many
areas based on Stossel's own ideas we should have cheaper much
cheaper care than ALL these western countries per capita and better
services in many if not all areas. Many people are as mad as hell and
are not going to take it anymore - Private health care get your s*&!
together!

Carlos
The reverse is if you go to small claims court. There, I found between
10-20 cases a day brought by the local hospital against people who
couldn't or didn't pay for services given by the hospital.

Money seems to be a problem.

Georgetwin writes:
Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 11:22 AM

I know, I know. But what can you do? Facts are the truth, and so many people deny the truth. Maybe if I said, "I feel that this fact is accurate..." Would that help? : D

doctork
Nice try, but your points exclude each other. Kinda like Cheapo, fast and good...you can't have all 3.

In addition, each of your points by itself is flawed:
No rationing of healthcare is an impossibility. It will be rationed by some means, and is rationed by some means everywhere. Not everyone can have a heart-lung transplant...anywhere.

Who determines "reasonable" fees. Is $6 a day enough? Who picks up the difference?

No government program curbs cost. In every instance where government intervention happened, medical costs soared.

Sorry dude, not interested in your book. Your logic is awful. Hope you're a better at doctoring than you are at policy proposal.

Agreed, but
animalgirlisback writes: You may find, though, when your son gets older and is unable to get health care at all (he will likely be uninsurable) that your opinion on our health care system will change. My husband had a melanoma at 27, and is unable to get health care unless we belong to a group--we would like to put everything in his business, but I have to have a job with access to group health care, or he is in the cold.
=================================================

That may very well influence decisions he will make as an adult. He will probably have to consider the benefits a larger company will offer instead of possibly striking out on his own or in a small start up. But at least he will be alive and functioning to make them.



His affliction has already changed some of our "life" choices, but then as a parent that is common. Just as where you live should be determined by what schools are available and the cost of housing. Why should health care exist in a vacuum?

vidyohs thank you...

What we cannot comprehend is the price of malpractice. Lawyers take more than we think from our healthcare dollars. John Edwards made a fortune, and our insurance premiums paid for it.

Another issue is the amount of money hospitals spend on "Avoidance". Hospitals need "teams" of highly-paid professionals on staff to train workers on lawsuit avoidance.

Millions of greenbacks for "diversity training". This is not diversity training, it is "racial lawsuit avoidance".

There are now more lawyers than Doctors in our Birthing Center? Drug-addicted babies are worth millions to John Edwards type lawyers.

Medical litigation, Part 2
The medical malpractice lawsuit industry has caused an enormous increase in the cost malpractice insurance, which is paid by ... who? Patients who have insurance. Just as smokers are paying for the cost of the settlement of the Big Tobacco lawsuit of the '90's in the form of higher cigarette prices, so patients are paying for the cost of punitive damage awards in malpractice trials in the form of higher insurance premiums.

It doesn't stop there.

Doctors now employ "defensive medicine" techniques to make it more difficult to be sued. This is most easily identified as addirional tests, especially on new patients. But there is a less honest aspect to it; the screening of patients so that a doctor will only accept new patients that are, according to whatever critieria the doctor deems apprpriate, less likely to sue him.

These additional tests cost money. So do certain extraordinary procedures that are motivated by fear of litigation. Ceasarian sections used to comprise about 6% of all child births. Now they comprise about 26% of all childbirths. The reason is because trial lawyers, including John Edwards, got rich on punitive damages by suing providers who delivered children who wound up with cerebral palsy, claiming the kids wouldn't have developed CB if they had been delivered by C-section.

Today, despite the vastly increased use of C-sections, the CB rate among newborns remains unchanged.

And everyone who has insurance is paying for the cost of these C-sections.

This is what we get when we take medical decisions out of the hands of medical professionals and turn them over to lawyers, judges, juries, and bureaucrats.

lilly on abortion abroad
Lilly says:
"And BTW, anti-abortion folks, if you manage to overturn Roe v Wade here, how long do you think it will take for somebody to package travel excursions to abortion-friendly countries?"

I ask: and the problem with that would be?

RE: animalgirlisback
Ah, yes, thank you. I spent a good 20 minutes searching the CDC website for state-by-state infant mortality information only to come up empty.

All things considered, I did think that it was plausible that "Republican infested states" have higher infant mortality rates because "Republican infested states" tend to also have larger black populations (in 2004, according to the Census Bureau, while "blue states" averaged about 4% of their population being black, "red states" averaged closer to 25% black population).

Now just so you don't think that was a patently racist assumption, I feel that is significant because 1) blacks, on the whole, tend to be poorer, particularly in the southern "Republican infested" states, thus their access to significant prenatal care would be reduced, and 2) black women have a higher tendancy toward habits that would endanger their babies (like drug abuse and other criminal behavior).

Combine that with your assertion that even in the absence of some of the endangering habits, blacks tend to have lower birthweight babies (something I wasn't aware of until you brought it up), it is unsurprising that those states that have higher black populations also have higher infant mortality.

animalgirl
My "claim" is the position of doctors, underwriters, and some judges and lawyers. The tendency of judges to throw out cases is still way less than it was 40 or 50 years ago.

The exercise of defensive medicine is not happening because of a make-work mentality and a desire to discourage customers. It is rooted in the legal-financial realities of medical litigation.

You are the one who is incorrect.

US Medicine the Best
The truth is US healthcare is the best in the world. Here are the critical facts on both studies cited by Stossel:

They either did not consider the following: quality and quantity of healthcare, quality of doctors, types of treatments and drugs available, quality of drugs, safety of drugs, quality of hospitals, sanitation in hospitals, deaths by malpractice, costs, or healthcare for the poor, or they used faked data in cases where these factors were 'considered'.

Truth is the defenders of socialized medicine have never ever told the truth about anything.

Cuban doctors are little more than butchers, the only competent Canadian doctors practice in the US, and the only Canadians and Btits to get decent medical care are ones rich enough to come to the US.

Based on actual facts and figures, US healthcare is best in the world. Even the liars like Michael Moore and the liberal Lefties in our colleges know that. Anyone who thinks these people go to Canada or Cuba for medical care are dead wrong. The Lefties stay right here in the US for medical work. They know what really happens when a Cuban 'surgeon' goes to work, and want no part of it.

Why?
Would we trash a flawed system that still works for the large majority of the population. For another equally if not more flawed system.

I hear a lot about people not having health care but, almost nothing about people not receiving it.

People may be biased for the free market system but, it is also obvious the WHO report is biased against it.

I'd rather not have government officials telling me when, where and if I'm allowed to have a medical procedure. At least against insurers we have options against the government we'll have none.

I'd prefer someone trying to make a buck helping me then, not being able to find someone to help do to lack of resources, rationing, no one qualified, etc...

We should tie the legal system to the medical so when the doctors income becomes fixed by the government so will lawyers. Its only fair sense lawyers are a primary reason for the systems problem with costs now.

Should Read
I hear a lot about people not having health care insurance but, almost nothing about people not receiving it.

So?
everyonesfacts writes: There, I found between
10-20 cases a day brought by the local hospital against people who couldn't or didn't pay for services given by the hospital.

=================================================

But if you went to their house I'm sure the cable TV and gameboy were up and running. The choice is made by many to simply not pay. More than half of all medical bill incurred by the uninsured are never collected - no one keeps stats on how many are by choice.

My own company offers great health insurance (see my earlier post) at a reasonable cost, but many of our employees decide to not enroll. They make good wages but have decided that "other items" are more important like Harleys and fishing boats. Its amazing how SHOCKED they are when a garnishment for medical care (or child support) starts coming out of their check.

Lilly
I'm actually glad you brought up Roe v. Wade.

Could some enterprising lawyer here tell me, if socialized medicine, of whatever flavor our left sided friends favor, ever becomes law, could Roe v. Wade be used as a precedent to overturn said legislation on the basis of the "constitutional right to privacy" under the 5th or 14th amendments?

I really think that we need to learn to use their own weapons against them. How many other reductions in liberty could be fought using Roe v. Wade as a precedent? How much would they scream if we did this?

hockeygoon
I was just stating what I saw.
What is in their house is unknown to me.
There are also even more cases for unpaid credit card bills, so maybe
it is a case of personal responsibility.

My big thing here is that our health care should cost less than other
western countries and it doesn't. Do they have different liability laws?
The care doesn't seem to be much better except for high end services
like your son - important indeed - but the free market doesn't seem
to make the costs go down

everyonesfacts
"some people are more equal than others. "

All systems have this problem. Those that can afford it always get better care than those who must rely of the government. I don't care what country you choose to highlight, whether they come to the US or EU or get bumped up the list because of a bribe.

If you have the money someone somewhere will treat you better than the government. Canadians can't buy better treatment in Canada but can in the US.

Why is it wrong for someone to travel to save money for cheaper healthcare? If you don't have insurance you need to balance price, expertise, and safety.

Take dog food as an example. How many people still buy dog food from China if they can afford not too. Low price, Yes. requirese little expertise, Yes. Safe ???


??????
everyonesfacts writes:
My big thing here is that our health care should cost less than other western countries and it doesn't. Do they have different liability laws?

=================================================

Why should it cost less? The care is better, more options are available and the waits are shorter.

As for liability laws - do you actually think you get to the national healthcare system - that will drive up costs.

For details on how it works in England - go here:

shttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/womenfamily.html?in_article_id=475941&in_page_id=1799&ct=5ue the

One other issue
The other issue isn't so much medical care is it is life style choices. The CDC estimates that over 60% of the US population is overweight, care to guess how much that effects one's health and longevity? Just look at the difference in life insurance rates between two people of similar health but one's BMI is 24 and the other's is 34.

Wiseone
Thank you for mentioning the practice of defensive medicine, a term and notion that I overlooked. This practice is another part of the excessive litigation that has exponentially inflated the cost of care. Each procedure recommended by a physician costs money, from X-rays to MRIs. If physicians have to administer 10 CAT scans and an MRI to a continuous visitor of the ER who constantly complains of a headache, the costs to the hospital increase. Now think of the thousands of similar patients that hospitals nationwide have to care for.

Initiate tort reform, and this would take care of the malpractice insurance costs and the defensive medicine costs.

how it works in England
Unfortunately as Americans we know we can match that story with
stories of our own.

Why should it cost less?
Because it is the free market!

I always see on TH it gives you twice the services (or the like, quality,
etc.) for half the price. Why is this not the case with health care?

CANADIANS LOVE OUR HOSPITALS...

Social-progressive healthcare in Canada... is sending thousands across the Detroit border to our hospitals. Local hospitals own "apartment buildings" for Canadian families to stay while their loved one is having surgery. And the biggest pull is... "emergency" heart procedures.

Canadians with "chest-pains" are treated with pills, and then sent home to wait for months until a cardiac procedure can be scheduled.

These folks are crossing the Detroit border and getting "immediate" surgery in Detroit area hospitals. Why... because they are near death in many cases.

So, go ahead and Socialize. Just let me take cuts in line :)


The answer
everyonesfacts writes: Why should it cost less?
Because it is the free market!

=================================================

Perhaps you are not aware of this tiny fact - the current system has little to do with free market. In fact the US health care system is closer to the Chinese Communist version of "free enterprise". To be "free market" you'd have to get rid of medicare, medicaid, and all the other government "health coverage" programs.

I don't think so
animalgirlisback writes:
Our current health care system stifles innovation across the board, tampers with the functioning of the labor market (since people will stay in lower paying, less enjoyable jobs because of health care concerns).

=================================================

And you think getting the government involved will promote innovation and grow the economy? Didn't we toss that idea on the ash heap history a decade or so ago?

cross border electable surgeries
Several posters have used the fact that US citizens travl to other countries for cheaper healthcare as a damning fact about US medical care.

Ridiculous!

The truth is that the average citizen in those countries cannot afford their own "cheap" care which is tied to their country's economy. It simply means that folks in a far more well off US have the luxury of being able to travel to poverty stricken countries to afford "pverty stricken country" rates.

In reality, this scenario is more of an affirmation of market principles than not.

animalgirlisback
Because of the harm to our economy.

With the best GDP per capita last time I looked I am not sure it is harming the economy relative to nations who have socialized medicine.

I think the impact is lower than might be anticipated. Sure a single parent may not hang out their own shingle because of medical insurance cost, but many people find ways to get around the problem, like a spouse working or being an entrepreneur part time.

Besides there are other benifits of working for a living, like a more stable paycheck.

I am not saying that some changes couldn't improve the situation. Personally, I would favour modeling health insurance more like life insurance. Get some real competition for my insurance premiums and I think things could improve.

ICBMMan
Initiate tort reform, and this would take care of the malpractice insurance costs and the defensive medicine costs.

Than why isn't that happening? Tort reform measures have been passed all across the country in the form of medical malpractice caps. They have been in place in some states for years now. Have you heard of an insurance company voluntarily lowering its rates? Or are they instead reporting yet another year of record-setting profits? I'll let you guess which is the correct answer.

Jan
The truth is that the average citizen in those countries cannot afford their own "cheap" care which is tied to their country's economy. It simply means that folks in a far more well off US have the luxury of being able to travel to poverty stricken countries to afford "pverty stricken country" rates.
-------------

Good point, and this probably lengthens waiting lines in the destination country.

Capital costs for a hospital in Bocca Raton are probably just a little bit higher than in the Malasya / Hungary /Costa Rica. But then again the power is less likely to go out during surgery too.

rates
ICBMman and Phylo:
Phylo is correct. Percentages (actually any rates) are not affected by the number of population. That is why they are used!
Example: infant mortality, traditionally calculated as a rate of infant deaths per 1000 live births. If county A has 20 deaths and county B has 10, county A looks bad, but you cannot compare these numbers without knowing the population at risk, which in this case is not the county population, but the number of live births. Say county A had 5000 live births and county B had 1000, the infant mortality rate would be 4/1000 in county A and 10/1000 in county B. So county A is actually doing better (maybe- see below). You can use the same argument in comparing all-cause mortality rates, birth rates, etc.
I repeat: rates (and percentage is just another name for a rate per 100) are used when you want to compare populations regardless of population size. Of course, you still have to compare "crude" (unadjusted) rates with caution as they may be affected by other factors (i.e. age).
I could go on with more examples but I think we're getting a little off topic! If you still don't get it take a look at a statistics text.

RE: animalgirlisback
According to the CDC, blacks on a whole are slightly more likely to use illicit drugs than whites. Unfortunately, they don't distinguish between white women and white men and black women and black men here:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus06.pdf#066

Do you have anything that shows that white women abuse more drugs than black women?

Incidentally, that same link shows whites drink more alcahol than blacks.

almost heaven -- tort reform
quoth almost heaven: "Tort reform measures have been passed all across the country in the form of medical malpractice caps."

It's still a Lawsuit Lottery. The amount that can be won is capped, but there is still virtually no penalty for losing. There has been very little done to prevent frivolous lawsuits.

For the plaintiff, it's "heads I win, tails you lose."

Animalgirl
“we are barring too many potential entrepreneurs from contributing to our economy's growth because of diabetes, childhood cancer, or other conditions that render people uninsurable.”

1) We are not “barring” anyone. You are free to do as you choose, so far.
b) But under a gov’ment run system, you would have them be a drag on the economy by forcing others to pay for their health care?
iii) Uninsurable does not mean Uncareable. (not able to be cared for, for those with government educations. Again, why does spell check not like this word??) You can still receive health care. You will just have to pay for it yourself. If the business was truly contributing to the economy, this would be viable.

“since people will stay in lower paying, less enjoyable jobs because of health care concerns”

Again, this is an economic choice each person must make. If they truly would make better money, benefits and expenses included, then there would be no reason to stay. However, you, and others, myself included, have decided that the overall benefits are greater in our current situation then having to bear the full cost ourselves.

“Also, it puts small business at a huge disadvantage against big business, because they are unable to offer the benefits that the best employees require.”

The “best employees” will look at the total compensation package. If they judge that the pay + benefits is better at one location then another, then they will take that into account. Also, we should make medical savings accounts easier to obtain. This would help take some of the burden off of companies, and place some of the burden back onto the individual to seek the best care at the best price.

almost heaven
This is incorrect. Tort reform has only been initiated in a few states and is not a nationwide practice. Plus, tort reform has not been around for many years; it's more like 2-3 years. Knowing this, we're only beginning to see the results in some states, but clever lawyers and "patients" will file a lawsuit in other states to continue their abuse of the system.

If there is any government that needs to be involved in health care, it is through monitoring of the legal system to create total tort reform and establishing standards for insurance companies (HMOs, PPOs) to follow in order to avoid excessive premiums and monopoly formations. However, that is all it should do. We're already seeing what excessive government can do in various industries.

ICBMMan
If there is any government that needs to be involved in health care, it is through monitoring of the legal system to create total tort reform and establishing standards for insurance companies (HMOs, PPOs) to follow in order to avoid excessive premiums and monopoly formations. However, that is all it should do. We're already seeing what excessive government can do in various industries.
---------------

What about setting minimum standards for practicing medicine? Until the doctors do a better job of weeding out the drug addicted surgen and the hospital that only cleans the surgery once a day (as in some third world countries) I hope there is a minimum standard that the government can regulate.


Ran
You're an absolute idiot. Since when is Arkansas, with a Democratic legislature, governor, lt governor, secretary of state, 2 senators and 3 of 4 US reps, a "Republican infested" state. Also, our Children's Hospital in Little Rock is one of the finest in the country. Our infant mortality rates relate more to the poor in the delta region of the state than anything else.

B4 AIDS, Health Ins. was almost cheap.
In the 1980's there were many small, not-for-profit health insurance companies. I know, I belonged to one and insured my employees with the same company. Then AIDS hit and the costs wiped out these small, efficient providers of reasonable health insurance. Now, all that there is left are the predatory, for profit insurers such as Blue Cross-Blue Shield, Kaiser, etc. It was, in part, the politics of AIDS that helped get us to the difficult place we are at now.

RE: Redhead
"Uninsurable does not mean Uncareable. (not able to be cared for, for those with government educations. Again, why does spell check not like this word??)"

Mainly because "uncareable" isn't a word in the English language.

germany taxes
I beleive Germany taxes for health care is 14% Netherlands is 9 and the swiss don't have govt. insurance except for the very poorest

Bucko - B4 AIDS
You may be right but the retiring baby boomers will dwarf the impact of AIDS I fear.

Australian Taxes
Australia officially charges 1.5% for health care (Medicare Levy), but this does not cover the cost of care provided. It is estimated that the rate would need to be around 8% to cover costs.

Skiddles
Good points, but I believe those standards are set through OSHA and state health departments as well as the professional organizations for physicians such as the AMA. Usually, many physicians do not want to be associated as performing shoddy medicine, because that is bad for business. In addition, they are chastised in the medical community, and in some cases, they have lost their medical practice privileges.

You see, the government is already HEAVILY involved in health care. More of it is not the answer...less of it is more appropriate, put in strategic problem areas.

Medical options in other countries
Simply google the following:

"medical tourism"

WHO's right!?!?!

May I suggest that the true measure of the quality of a nation's health care is reflected in the general health of the people? Americans are generally an unhealthy bunch of people, therefore its health care system must be lacking in quality.

It is right to be a proud American. It is wrong to assume that America is superior to all other nations just because it wields the biggest club. That is an unhealthy assumption.

A low rate of longevity is an unhealthy social condition.

A high murder rate is an unhealthy social condition.

Being fat is an unhealthy life choice.

Bottom line..? It doesn't matter where you live on this planet: first world; third world; etc. -- if you have the money, you'll get a quality of health care equal to anywhere else in the world. Period.




???????
animalgirlisback writes: Death or poverty, to Hockey Goon

You might want to go back and see who you are replying too, that's not my post.

ICBMMan -- I agree sort of
I believe those standards are set through OSHA and state health departments as well as the professional organizations for physicians such as the AMA.

I personally do not trust the AMA to self regulate. Too many hospitals and states foist their incompetent doctors off onto other states and hospitals because they don't want to ruin someones life by yanking their lisence. They just quietly send them away to other unsuspecting communities.

Just guessing
union dude writes: germany taxes
I beleive Germany taxes for health care is 14% Netherlands is 9 and the swiss don't have govt. insurance except for the very poorest
=================================================

That's cheap. Right now every man, woman and child in the US is paying 2.9% on every dollar earned for limited health benefits "enjoyed" retirees. Imagine what it would be if they expanded that program to include every man woman and child and tried to make it a full comprehensive medical plan? Just guessing but plan on paying about 20% at least.

Then much like the school systems you'll still end up buying your own private insurance so you can avoid the flawed public system – France is proof of that.

Market Distortion
Recently, our local hospital in Greenville SC, was fined over $100,000 for having too many inpatient beds. There is a regulatory body that controls how many beds a hospital can have. Obviously this distorts the market and reduces the available number of hospital beds, diving up the cost of healthcare. In addition, fines like this are part of the cost of doing business and will be paid for by collections from patients and their insurance companies. Who knows how many other things like this go on that drive up the cost of healthcare.

about the uninsured
While doing research on the uninsured, I discovered an interesting phenomenon. Among employees in companies that offer health insurance, there was no rhyme or reason [in terms of salaries] to distinguish those who purchase insurance and those who do not.

In fact, 17 million folks below the poverty line have managed to purchase their own insurance, which is a rather stunning indictment of the sheer number of those over 200%-400% of the poverty line who feel they cannot afford insurance.

Further, in two parent families accessing CHIP programs, it is worthwhile to note:

1) Most often, only one of the parents works and the other is a stay at home mom by choice. Apparently, these stay at home moms feel little compunction about the "luxury" of being a stay at home mom at the expense of working moms.

2) Quite often, these are families who simply have more children than they can properly afford. Yet, millions upon millions of families delay having children until they are financiallly able to support them. One reason CHIP families have more kids than they can properly afford is simply "because they can."

3) CHIP absolutely results in crowd-out as families drop private insurance when they are eligible for government provided insurance. In many ways, this is a rational response but it can hardly be good for society.

liberals don't get it
Once again, most of the liberal [for wont of a better identifying term] posters are stuck on the wrong conversation. Unbelieveably, most seem to think that we are speaking about whether we would like for everyone to have health care or whether we want people with tremendous medical needs to have them met.

NEWSFLASH!

We are discussing what is the BEST way to give the highest quality health care to the greatest number of people.

NEWSFLASH TWO!

Most rational people recognize that the Cuban model does not meet either of those two goals -- it just sounds good.

Liberals seem to mire every conversation in the muck of their preconceived notions about conservatism. Staying stuck on the wrong conversation allows them to do just that. Unfortunately, it also precludes any valuable exchanges about viable solutions. But hey, it makes them feel "compassionately superior."

Greed
Far too many people simply do not understand what real greed is.

Making a profit is a good thing. Revenue, and ultimately profits, are limited by what others are willing to pay.

All these ignorant whiners who yell greed all the time are interfering in the trade between consenting parties.

Why can't they mind their own business, be self-reliant, and allow others to do the same? Is it because they care? Not bloody likely.

Animalgirlisback
By the way, back from where? Was the health care coverage better there? Why’d you come back?

You addressed this to Hockey Goon, but I’ll respond.

“Sorry, but just because there's a pretend choice doesn't mean there's actual choice. Saying someone can start a business if they want to risk their very lives is not giving them a choice.”

Ok, I’ve got the same take on Social Security. Also, under your system, will you offer me the choice of opting out of government care entirely, and going to a private doctor I choose? Anyway, you said “we are barring.” I’m not barring anyone from going into business for themselves. And so it is a choice. I can take up parachuteless sky diving, but I choose not to.
When you make the choice to start your own business you have to look at the economics of it. If the business income will not cover all of your expenses, you cannot simply expect someone else to pick up the tab. If the income will not cover all of your expenses, you should look at ways to increase the income, or find other sources of income, such as working for someone else.

“So you are saying no one should pay for their health care at all, because it's a drag on the economy?”

No, I am saying that expecting others to pay for your health care creates a drag on the economy, especially when they do not have a choice in the matter.

The rest does not apply to me, but I will offer that there is not simply a choice of insurance of Medicaid. There is also a choice of paying for the care out of pocket. This means sacrifice. It may mean a second or third job. There is also the option of many private charities.

drt
I read recently that a heart attack victim has a better chance of surviving in Germany than in the United States. On what do you base your statement that the US has the best health care in the world? If people in other countries are surviving emergencies better, and living longer, and their infants are less likely to die, and pregnant women ALL get prenatal care, and young mothers ALL get in-home support, and the dying aLl have access to hospice (none of which is true in the United States), what "facts and figures" are you talking about?

Health Care
Hey, all you idiots. Health care is none of the Federal government's business. The constitution does not authorize the government to be involved in health care, private housing, education, agriculture, pension plans, etc. I believe the US Constitution states that powers not given to the federal government by the constitution belong to the states. So the federal government should mind its own business, like securing our borders, for example. I pay for my own health insurance, on the income of a retired school teacher. An aortic valve replacement surgery cost me not one cent, and I pay almost nothing for prescription drugs. And I got the surgery on the schedule I requested, which was about one week.

experience with government health care
Yes I know, I posted this somewhere some time ago. But … … …

If we are going to take care of everyone, certainly everyone will appreciate that so much, that no one will ask for, or do anything that isn’t necessary. To cut the administrative costs to $0, let’s just let the doctor, or medical facility write a check on a government account each day, to pay for all the patients that day. Appreciation pays off.

Here’s my experience with government health care.

One year when friends visited from Toronto, Canada, (we lived near Palm Springs at that time), they mentioned that there were three MRI systems in all Toronto, with a long waiting list of patients. As we stood at the corner of Monterey and Fred Waring Drive, we could see three offices with MRI systems, and was just three of several for a few hundred thousand people in the Coachella Valley, not three systems for the millions of people in Toronto.

Our friend in Bracknell, England, had worked for the English Health care system since it started, and the stories she could tell about inefficiencies. Her son became a dentist, and after a few years he left the Health Care System, and started private practice, one of the fastest growing businesses in England.

One day in Stockholm, I needed a Dental plate repair. The cost was about three time what it is in the USA. They looked at a list of countries and charged a percentage of the listed cost, but much less for those countries that also had a Government controlled medical system. A US citizens, paid 100%, three times the cost at home.

Once I went to a hospital ER in Canada with a unstoppable nose bleed. The cost was a lot more than I would expect to pay in the US. The Canadian hospital staff said they were going to cauterize the spot in my nose, and that is what they charged me for. Once at home, my doctor looked at the bill and said, “Yes they did charge you”, then looked at my nose, and said, “But no way did they cauterize anything.”

Beckie, read my post
My blog didn't insinuate anything about the quality of health care poor people get, it stated the hypocracy of conservative free-market types who demand a laissez-faire health system, yet benefit from "gov't meddling" in their own health care.

not the real jim
jim writes: Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 8:56 AM

--------


That is not the real jim, I don't know who it was or how they used my name.

And I am not going to read it either.

Skiddles, I see your point
But, the AMA actually does a fair job of self-regulating, IMO. They set the bar for MDs in hospitals and private practices, along with the medical staff at each hospital. The state health departments and OSHA are the entities that really can enforce true standards, unless we decide to create another government bureaucracy to do that (which I'm against). Yes, there have been instances of doctors being quietly removed to move on to other communities, but to avoid this, current agencies need to enforce full disclosure with physician mishaps. In addition, state's need to demand price transparency, exposing the consumer to what each and every procedure costs.

Police state liberal no more
Your "statistics" are made up out of thin air.

???????
lilly writes: .....their infants are less likely to die, and pregnant women ALL get prenatal care, and young mothers ALL get in-home support, and the dying aLl have access to hospice (none of which is true in the United States), what "facts and figures" are you talking about?
=================================================


Yet the Germans have resorted to literally paying women to get pregnant. Did something get lost in translation?

Art
Another hypocrite on the right. Here you are getting all this "free" very expensive care paid for by your insurance company - the same insurance company that would love to get rid of you and your incredibly expensive heart issues as a customer, but can't because those awful lefty laws that force the company to keep you as a policy holder, despite the fortune that it's losing on you.

Typical of people on the right, you leave out the rest of the amendment : the states AND the people. Conservatives who quote that amendment usually leave out the people part.


Hockey Goon, it has been
enjoyable reading your posts, along with a few other posters on this column. Interestingly enough, while reading one of 'animalgirlisback's' responses to you I thought the same thing. Your son may have difficulty getting insurance as an adult, but he will be alive. Thankfully your family was covered for such a catastrophic situation. May your son continue to do well. I cannot begin to imagine what it has been like for you and your family, as well as the other families who face these kinds of situations each and every day (one of whom I personally know is doing so right now.) Only in America (and perhaps a handful of other countries) would treatments of your son's magnitude even be available, much less with a predominately successful outcome.

Chicago , please explain
Chicago says; "My blog ...stated the hypocracy of conservative free-market types who demand a laissez-faire health system, yet benefit from "gov't meddling" in their own health care."

Chicago, are you saying that if we accept ANY government regulation, then we are hypocrites if we don't accept ALL government regulation?

Rational folks accept that we need to be protected from the "truly bad actors" of the world, but that is a far cry from saying that we are then required to accept government run health care or risk being deemed hypocrites.

By the way, charges of hypocrisy and racism are the most overused trite argumentative devices employed these days. The left lobs them so often that they have been virtually stripped of meaning.

Mr. Stossel Explains It Well
I had read this New York Times article and dismissed it as very odd.

In all of my travels, I sometimes think of the possibility of being stuck in a country with an injury to be remedied. No country ever gave me comfort that all would be okay. Knowing that ready transportation home or a USA Conslate is always nearby generally allows me some comfort.

Mr. Stossel has confirmed what I always knew, intuitively.

Ran
Methinks you need to remove the rose colored glasses.

I follow AudiR10's posts because of an e-mail friend of mine as well as others in our group. This friend has had health problems for years and the doctors in her home town seemed to resent being told that she was sick (rather like the caddy in a recent "Tank MacNamara" strip who was a chronic complainer who had gone through nurse's training but didn't like all those people saying, "This hurts!" "That hurts!"). She moved to Toronto and started getting better health care but no longer has access to a computer. She was an excellent source of info on what socialized medicine is really like.

I suggested that she come to the USA (she used to live about an hour's drive from Buffalo, NY) but she is not eligible because her ex was from the Canary Islands and our Immigration quota for Canarians is quite small.

Now we don't know if she is still living; her health has really been bad for a long time. A very pretty lady (she once sent me a pic of one of her grandchildren).

From my experience with socialized medicine, having served in the military and become ill, they treat you until you are well enough to return to work; you may still be sick but you can still work and the cure is of secondary importance. I had a sinus/respiratory infection so they didn't let me fly until the infection and aftermath were gone but I could work in the shop in the meantime.


Ran part 2
Your praise for Scandinavia fails to take into account what everything costs; back in the mid-60s for example, Sweden had a 25 per cent purchase tax on everything. At the dame time, the UK -- which was going through a socialist government -- had a FIFTY per cent PT on durable goods.

Friends of my brother and sister-in-law have visited Norway and I was shocked at what they told me about the price of prepared food there: a medium pizza and two beers cost FIFTY bucks.

My second favorite (second only to the USA) country is Switzerland; my wife and I have vacationed there twice and thoroughly enjoyed our time there. It has been described as an expensive country to visit but knowing where to look for food and lodging saved us a bundle. We had a room for two with bath and mini-bar in St. Moritz for a night for about $105 for one night (we would have stayed two but were riding the Glacier Express the next day, the last until spring). And we never had to spend the kind of money for food or lodging that was described to me regarding Norway. Going back is not likely because we are now having problems handling long flights (a five hour flight to San Francisco is bad enough).

captain america
Nice of you to brought that up , well , for your information , MLK hospital is government owned and for your information , was ranked one of the worse metropolitan hospitals nationwide . Thank you for showing why government should stay away from health care .

Carlos
I work in a Chicago hospital and I can definitely back up your posts with my experiences and honestly , most of the time , the best care is given to the uninsured patients because we have no insurance bureaucrats to give our case managers hell .







SteveL writes:
Americans earned a smaller average income in 2005 than in 2000, the fifth consecutive year that they had to make ends meet with less money than at the peak of the last economic expansion, new government data shows. […]

The combined income of all Americans in 2005 was slightly larger than it was in 2000, but because more people were dividing up the national income pie, the average remained smaller. […]

Total income listed on tax returns grew every year after World War II, with a single one-year exception, until 2001, making the five-year period of lower average incomes and four years of lower total incomes a new experience for the majority of Americans born since 1945.


-------
Pollyanna

The right frequently seems genuinely mystified as to why so many Americans tell pollsters how unsatisfied they are with the economy.

Why doctor's fees are high
Our paper used to carry a daily column by Dr. Geotge Crane that contained a great deal of wisdom. He was a minister but, IIRC, he may also have been a MD; he had a lot of knowledge in that field.

He once described a conversation with a lady who worked for a minister and who couldn't understand why it cost so much to see a doctor. Crane pointed out differences -- the church paid all office expenses while the doctor pays all his office expenses from his own pocket, e.g.

The high jury awards hadn't started to rear their ugly heads yet so that wasn't mentioned but today it is nothing for a doctor to have to pay well over $100,000 annual premiums for malpractice insurance. One doesn't have to do anything wrong to be held liable, either; all it takes is for something to **go wrong** for the lawyers to go into a feeding frenzy. That is why an office call would cost me about $100 if I didn't have good insurance. High fees motivated by greed? I don't think so. Motivated by risk? Possibly. So who gets rich? Trial lawyers like John Edwards.

I recall a strike by OB/GYNS in MA back in the 80's because of a double whammy: they had to accept assignment from a chintzy insurance company and were in the highest premium class for insurance.

The comprehensive profundity
... of rankings and statistics. Can't beat it.

Consider that the US perennially ranks as the world's biggest military spender. In 2004 we spent 43% of everything spent on arms and armies by the entire world. We not unnaturally ranked number one in the world, in military spending.

Of course, as a percentage of our national GDP (3.4%), our defense expenditures ranked 17th in the world, well behind nearly un-catchable Eritrea, which spent 23.5% of its GDP on the military. Oman, spending only about 12% of its GDP on arms, was a distant second. The rest of the top ten -- Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Jordan, Burundi, Liberia, Yemen, and Brunei -- all spent more than 7% of GDP on the military; more than twice the percentage the US spent.

I interpret this as meaning that those other nations are much more militaristic and determined to wage war than the US is. Why not? We can certainly see where their priorities lie. Don't make any ridiculous accusations, like, my bias leads me to focus narrowly only on certain measures or phenomena. Statistics are statistics. They are always an uninfluenced scientific comment, never a political one.

Study
Interesting that Michael Moore used the study as a bisis for arguing that we need to have socialized medice here. I was unaware of that (because I refuse to spend one penny on this idiot's leftist, anti-american tripe). But it should give pause to those who actually try to understand this complex issue.

If the WHO study actually uses the degree of socialization of a nation's health care system as a facter in ranking health care systems overall, isn't using the study as a basis for arguing that we need more socialization in our health care system a classic example of bootstrapping? The result of using this WHO study would be (and I take it is)predictably skewed. It would rank a country with no socialized health care, but excelent health care below a mediorce system, but has some form of socialized medicine. Arguing that the results of this study somehow demonstrate that we should move more towards socialized system is just poor reasoning (I still can't decide whether Moore could even understand this logical flaw (meaning Moore's just stupid) or whether, like the some lefties, he does understand the logical flaws but chooses to ignore them in his propaganda meaning that he is both a liar and a knave).

Do we really want the government to run our heath care system? Delivering the mail and registering vehicles are hard enough for government, and they are simple tasks. I for one would rather stick with the flawed system we have than have a postal worker deciding whether I should get the treatment I may need.

The Great Thing About This Country
Is that you have the freedom to LEAVE if you don't like the way things are.

All this talk about "free" healthcare is B.S. Somebody is going to pay for it one way or another.

Of course, I don't hear any stampede to the airports and ocean liners to get outta Dodge and make it to one of those wonderful Utopias . . .

Jan
My comments are directed at the people who want a truly free-market health system and blame the left for all the problems in the health care system, yet are beneficiaries of regulations that absolutists such as themselves say should be eliminated.

A truly free-market system that the likes of John Stossel, Walter Williams, etc. crave would ELIMINATE gov't regulations in health care.

BTW, I'm opposed to socialized medicine as far as the gov't running hospitals and clinics is concerned.


Abolish mandatory prescriptions
Unlike most liberals and conservatives, I believe the gov't should not protect people from themselves, but rather only from others.

This means I believe people should be able to take any drug they choose (with the exception of antibiotics) without having to get a prescription from a doctor or permission from the gov't.

When I say any drug, I mean any drug uppers, downers, crack, etc.

I exempt antibiotics from my policy because unlike other drugs, antibiotics that are misused endanger everyone because of the risk of infections becoming resistant to them.

But if someone wants to pop sleeping pills, steroids, oxycontin, etc, good luck to them. The gov't should stay out of it.

10 advantages of Socialized medicine
If we ever get socialized medicine in this country of the kind that Hillary advocates (the kind that makes it illegal to opt out of the system except by leaving the country) we could see some excellent benefits:

10. Boon for Caymen Islands who begin to recruit all our best doctors and nurses to their newly minted "hospitals for Americans".
9. Boon for doctors and nurses who always wanted a job in a beautiful Caribbean country.
8. Boon for travel industry as Americans leave in droves to get treatment at Caymen Island hospitals.
7. Decision making made easier for people needing drugs. "Which would you like for your life threatening illness sir, Aspirin or Penicillin"?
6. With government employees now performing delicate surgery like angioplasty, big fat liberal slobs like Michael Moore would be dying in surgery in droves.
5. The poor, who up until socialized medicine was implemented, received the very best care in the world, now are treated by government employees. They die in droves, thus reducing the ranks of Democrat voters.
4. Abortion clinics are no longer the profitable business for Planned Parenthood they once were so they close shop and Planned Parenthood, now starved for money, goes bankrupt.
3. Abortions are now performed by people not qualified to work at FEMA or the DMV. Because of this, the abortion rate starts to decline as pregnant women begin fearing that they will die on the table like Michael Moore did.
2. With the US no longer acting as the engine for medical innovation in the world, Europeans start dying by the millions for lack of wonder drugs that previously were developed in the US.
1. Socialized medicine means there is no longer a private industry for lawyers to sue. This puts millions of lawyers out of work, including John Edwards.


I have posted rants about
the many and unnecessary government regulations in the past but when I saw the comment above about a South Caronina law that limited the number of hospital beds I just had to do some research.

http://www.scdhec.net/health/cofn/

Well not only is this true, but it is common. I found similar laws all throughout the country. This is obscene. The State is effectively creating a monopoly to increase prices. Do you figure that the AMA has paid into some campaign funds here?

Vic
Good research.
Yeah, I think the AMA is definitely involved there. Using the state to decrease beds, decrease doctors. Is this what chicago means by hypocrisy?

Next they'll be making us file a request and pay taxes to reincarnate. (Does that mean you can't die unless the state tells you so, or that you can't be born?)


Redhead
I doubt that the general public knows that this is a law. Somebody aught to publicize it.

Anthony Thomas
OK, by your standards if the nation of Mayotte, population app 171,000, had 10,000 witch doctors who practiced medicine using a dried skin full of baboon bones which they rattled over the patient and did it “free of charge” it would be the most advanced nation in the world.

@Anthony - What is Christian?
The Christian view is one of CHARITY not THEFT.

You are advocating theft from one individual to "give" to another and thus you demonstrate you know nothing of Christianity. Last time I read the Bible Jesus did not say, "unsheathe your sword you people and steal from the wealthy person, all he has and give it to the poor."

Using the threat of violence to take from those who produce to give to those who do not is totalitarianism, not Christian charity.

As for your assertion regarding paying $300 for insurance vs. paying taxes. Come on Anthony, what cave do you live in? The $300 you pay in premiums gets you VASTLY more coverage than the $1500 in taxes that will be further taken as a payroll deduction for your future socialized health care.

I simply cannot understand why someone would want to pay more for something that will be lower quality, rationed, and potentially UNAVAILABLE. This is lunacy of the highest order.

Remember people, the problem is not our health care (which is the BEST in the world) but the financing of it. Our current financing mechanism is broken because it is government regulated and because illegals can access it free of charge. The market, if allowed to work, will provide the best financing methodology. Let's work toward that goal rather than putting FEMA types in charge of heart surgery.

Anthony Thomas
Don't worry, your taxes won't guarantee you everything either.

As I have noted before, in Australia where they have socalized care, anyone who can afford it STILL carries private insurance.

In Canada where private insurance is not available, the wait for services is so long that many who can afford it come to the US.

Sounds similar to US as far as accessability goes.

Anthony, sorry but no dice
The "last time you looked" must have been decades ago. THE POOR DO NOT PAY TAXES!!!

Why get on a discussion thread like this and make such outlandish lies that everyone knows are not true? Unbelievable.

Furthermore, the difference between military, police, and fire service and taking my money to pay for other people's health care is obvious. I hope that the more educated among our dear readers will pardon a little pedantic summary here but I guess some people like Anthony need to be enlightened:

1. The military is the manifestation of the primary constitutional role of the federal government; to provide for the common defense. We ALL benefit from the military so we all should pay for it.

2. Police and fire are LOCAL government duties. They are not FEDERAL. (Why I have to explain civics 101 on this forum is mind-boggling but there it is.) If a municipality or a state want to put publicly funded healthcare up for referendum, then that is their right. It is still stealing but at least it is constitutional within the model we have.

The "logic" of the argument beyond the constitutional is also obvious; If everyone is paying in and everyone is benefiting (such as with police or fire protection) then it is not theft. If some are benefiting and others are not, such as with paying for someone else's health care, then it is. Period,


Thatisall.

Anthony Thomas
"Poor" people who receive government benefits make a net profit. What they pay in taxes (if any at all) is returned in far greater rewards. http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12es.cfm

Mr. Thomas, your knowledge of economics is seriously lacking. This might be a good start to a more informed and less fantasy based point of view: Economics for the Citizen
A Ten Part Series on Basic Economics Concepts
By Walter Williams

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/misc/econcitizen/index.html

Beeblebrox
The poor don't pay taxes? Surely you jest. They might not pay INCOME tax if income and exemptions meet the test but they do pay the same sales taxes as anyone else. And the sales tax is regressive because it takes a larger percentage of the poor person's income than it does the wealthy person's income. The poor also help pay the corporate taxes that Dems are so fond of levying. Practically speaking, corporations don't pay tax; what is listed on the balance sheet as "taxes" is simply another cost of doing business that is added to the purchase price. Those hidden taxes are also regressive.

Anthony
The next time that POOR guy on SKID ROW asks me for 5 bucks,,, I'll tell him to "just take it out of your TAXES you pay"

on Generalization
Anthony Thomas: "You can't generalize an entire group of people."

Of course you can. People do it all the time.

I love how, in particular, some lefties (note I said "some", no generalization here!) will whine that you "can't generalize about poor people" (or illegal immigrants, or women, or minorities, or what-have-you), then, in the same post (sometimes the same paragraph) will categorically state that "conservatives are heartless" (or bigoted, or stupid, etc.)

Irresponsible
It's irresponsible to look toward government to take care of you. Government works best to keep a well armed militia; manage elections; pass laws to keep Americans safe, and that's about it. Anything else that are fairly incompetent to manage.

This notion that the government is your parent is irresponsible and you are flawed in your thinking.

You need to take ownership of your own life, whatever your circumstances are, and figure it out. Move. Get a new job. Get a second job. Figure it out.

BTW - giving money to "the bum on the street" is irresponsible, as well.

If he/she is a mental patient, you aren't helping the situation, you're supporting him/her in not getting the medical attention needed.

If he/she is an alcoholic/drug addict - see answer above.

If he/she is lazy(as most are)then you're encouraging this person to not be a contributing member of society, in which case why don't you just take this person into your home.

You're getting your jollies at the expense of others not in your financial situation - how ignoble is that.

People making decisions through an emotional view of life are not fit to be making decisions.

And your posts here just make you sound like you're a member of the unhinged in our society.

When someone says "that's offensive" - skip the comment and simply say, "do you have a point to make?".

When someone talks about how they "feel" or "that's makes me angry" or "that makes me feel bad", simply say, "did you have a point to make regarding the subject we're discussing?".

Ignore it. It's that person's responsibility to deal with his/her own feelings and not to lay the issue at anyone else's feet.

The fact that you have an unresolved experience in life for which you are emotionally tied to is not anyone's responsibility except your own - go off, lick your wound, come back when you can speak coherently.


Pay attention...
When was the last time a Federal, State, County, city or "locality" used money (resources) wisely?

No one uses other people's money wisely unless they get a cut.

The 10th Amendment of our Federal Constitution is very clear--what is absolutely astounding is the level or mental gymnastics needed to clear this Amendment.

What is even more astounding is the unbelievable amount of evidence we have that power corrupts. Giving more money and power to the central government of any country, anywhere, leads to abuse and waste and in many cases a less healthy group of people.

How many examples do you need? How many times to you have to be reminded that government is a necessary evil--not a savior?

US health care is in a crisis #1
Where does the blame lie with regards to our
health-care woes? How come our government never requires accountability from the organizations/people mentioned below?

1. The American Medical Association must be required to see that all doctors are trained extensively in nutrition, diet and allergy. The current standards in this area of health is pathetic.

(All auto-immune disorders have a link to diet/nutrition. The U.S. leads the world in obesity....and Celiac Disease (aka gluten intolerance and the undiagnosed millions), is linked to all autoimmune diseases/disorders/symptoms.

-checks and balances
Doctors must keep up on all new information/breakthroughs in their respective field of medicine and be held accountable for that in some way. Doctor's must be trained extensively in diet/nutrition/food allergy and should be required to perform extensive food allergy tests for any auto-immune disorder, before being allowed to prescribe dangerous chemical drugs.

(It's a no-brainer to know that inflammation and allergy and its many symptoms go hand in hand and afflict the entire body.)


The AMA must show that they have trained doctors/keep training doctors in diet/nutrition
via public 'accountability' reports made available
to all U.S. citizens.


2. All pharmacist's must be trained in natural
supplements/vitamins which they would be able to distribute as well as 'chemically' patented medicines. The choice of whether a patient receives 'chemically' produced drugs/natural medicine should be left to the patient. The U.S. population is completely ignorant of the health benefits that 'natural' supplements provide.

And the cost - very little compared to what the mega-profit pharmaceutical companies are charging.

health care woes 2

U.S. pharmacist's are not trained in 'natural' medicine. Very interesting to note that 'nutrition' and 'diet' via the means of 'natural' supplements etc. is considered DANGEROUS in our country! These supplements might take a little longer to see the health improvements, but they have no additives or chemicals and they work!

You don't make a huge profit off of natural medicine though.....that's the reason we have our FDA to make that decision for us!)

3. The FDA, instead of being an entity which profits from approving dangerous drugs, is required and held accountable to learn the benefits and health improvements from 'natural' minerals, vitamins...
what they commonly refer to as the 'unproven' methods of homeopathy.

(Who trains the FDA in 'chemically' induced drugs?
Who profits from BIG PHARMA? Who has ever trained the FDA in natural medicine? Let's hear about that report!)

Sorta makes you 'tingle' all over when you see that our health-care system is all about 'free-enterprise' instead of truly 'caring' for the patient.


4. All employed citizens should be required to have some portion of their paycheck which goes to pay for insurance coverage. (How much money taken out of the paycheck would be determined by the amount earned in a year, children at home, spouse's overall gross wage etc. This is the way the SUISSE cover all their citizens and it works fairly. But, there must be a national scale made up for this to work. (Yes, I know that there are only 7+million people living in Switzerland.)
























































































health care woes 3
5. All insurance companies should be required to have a set-price for procedures, doctor visits, lab work, surgery costs etc. (Yes, they do this in France.)No health provider/insurance company/doctor should be able to deviate from this set price.

(The prices will vary depending on the 'cost of living' for each area.)

(Ever wonder why doctors in the U.S. make more money than other First World countries? Why is it also true that we probably lead the world in
health-care lawsuits, obesity, and nutritional problems, chronic diseases?)

-checks and balances

When a doctor tries to 'milk' the insurance company by intentionally charging more than what they know the insurance company will cover, they are penalized for it/the patient doesn't have to pay anything!)

(It would be great if information was reported on on Doctor's who have actually cured their patients of their chronic health problems/NO more doctor visits.)

(last one is coming too!)



health care woes 4
6. Prosecute any in the medical field who take bribes/offers/free-trips etc. from pharmaceutical companies. Doctors take an oath....just wondering if the wording had changed over the years to include bribes? Some diseases require 'drugs' but most of our health problems are linked to diet!

7. My favorite....Pharmaceutical companies should not be allowed to advertise? (Wouldn't that be a great boost to the majority of patients' health problems?) Why are prescription medicine ads taking up so much of our airwaves and print media?
How can the medical community sit by and WAIT for the patient to come shopping at their 'Doctor Store?'

(Are American's so naive as to believe that drug companies are there to CURE your ailments? That's the point of the drug....to cover up the symptoms, not to CURE you of anything.) Just watch how many ads are on television, in the newspapers and magazines! It should be criminal that 'free-enterprise' in America has profited so many in the health field today, including many of our politicians and private citizens! Yet, so many of our citizens continue going to their doctors for re-fills.)

The U.S. health system needs to change from the TOP!

Where to start? The AMA and doctor training, the FDA. Does anyone believe that a govt. official/private citizen/doctor who has stock in a pharmaceutical company truly cares about your health?

How better to cut our health-care costs than get down to the problem - right at the heart of it all.

Okay John Stossel ......let me see the 'backbone' I've seen in your before!


Esteemed Mr. John Stossel,
You wrote: "When was the last time you heard of someone leaving this country to get medical care?"

=================================================

I hear about it all time among parishioners at my Church for example of going t