Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Frank Turek :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Preposterous Premise for Gay Marriage
by Frank Turek
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



            After the passage of Prop 8 in California, homosexuals are still howling that they don’t have “equal rights.”  Hopefully, the California Supreme Court will respect the equal rights of voters by affirming Prop 8 because the howls of homosexuals are false.  The truth is every person in America already has equal marriage rights!

            We’re all playing by the same rules—we all have the same right to marry any non-related adult of the opposite sex. Those rules do not deny anyone “equal protection of the laws” because the qualifications to enter a marriage apply equally to everyone—every adult person has the same right to marry.  

            Homosexuals want the court to believe that because of their sexual desires they are a special class of persons that is being discriminated against. In other words, they think that sexual desires guarantee people special legal rights.

            That’s a preposterous premise!  It would mean that men born with a desire for many women (i.e. most men) are having their rights violated because marriage laws provide no means for polygamy.  Likewise, it would mean that people desiring to marry their close relatives don’t have “equal rights” because our marriage laws have no provision for incest. And bisexuals could object because existing marriage laws don’t allow them to marry a man and a woman! 

            If desires alone guarantee someone special rights, why no special rights for pedophiles and gay bashers?  The answer is obvious—because desires, even if you were “born” with them, do not justify behavior, do not make anyone a special class, and should have no impact on our laws (see Born Gay or a Gay Basher: No Excuse). 

            Laws encourage good behavior or prevent bad behavior. Desires are irrelevant.  We enact all kinds of laws that conflict with people’s desires.  In fact, that’s why we need them!  We wouldn’t need any laws if people always desired to do good, which is why James Madison wrote, “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”

            So there should be no legal class of “gay” or “straight,” just a legal class called “person.”  And it doesn’t matter whether persons desire sex with the same or opposite sex, or whether they desire sex with children, parents, or farm animals.  What matters is whether the behavior desired is something the law should prohibit, permit or promote. Those are the only three choices we have when it comes to making law. 

            We already permit homosexuals to pledge themselves to one another “till death do them part.” They can privately commit themselves to one another in every state, and in California domestic partnerships give them all the benefits of marriage. But that’s not enough for homosexual activists. They want homosexuality to be promoted and endorsed by getting the government to call it “marriage.” That way they can get the social approval they want and use the law as a club to beat homosexual values into our school children, businesses, and charities. 

            Sorry, but there is no “right” to have any sexual relationship officially called “marriage” and have it granted benefits by the state.  We have government-backed natural marriage because it benefits the country greatly, especially children, and because we voted for it! 

            Gay complaints of “discrimination” are bogus as well. Marriage laws do not discriminate against persons, they discriminate against behavior. That’s true of most laws. For example, the Thirteenth Amendment discriminates against the behavior of some businessmen who might like to improve their profits through slavery, but it does not discriminate against those businessmen as persons.  And the First Amendment’s freedom-of-religion protections discriminate against the behavior of some Muslims who want to impose Islam on the entire nation, but it does not discriminate against those Muslims as persons. Likewise, our marriage laws discriminate against the desired behaviors of homosexuals, polygamists, bigamists, adulterers, and the incestuous, but they do not discriminate against them as persons. 

            The nonsensical comparisons to interracial marriage don’t work either. Race is irrelevant to marriage while gender is essential to it. There is nothing wrong with interracial marriages because men and women are designed for one another and can procreate regardless of their racial background. But same-sex marriages can’t procreate or provide a mom and a dad to kids.  No law can change that or alleviate the documented health problems that result from same-sex couplings. So our marriage laws should be color blind but not gender blind.

            Ironically, it’s not conservatives but homosexual activists who are acting like racists. Instead of asking the state to recognize the preexisting institution of marriage, homosexuals are asking the state to define marriage. That’s exactly what racists were trying to do to prevent interracial marriage. Racists wanted the state to define marriage as only between same-race couples, instead of having the state recognize what marriage already was—the union of a man and a woman regardless of their racial background. While racists and homosexuals may want to alter the legal definition of marriage, they can’t alter the laws of nature that helped lead to the recognition of legal marriage in the first place.

            The bottom line is that we’re not discriminating against anyone with our current marriage laws.  Like most laws, we’re only discriminating for or against behavior that is good or bad for our country. So this debate really has nothing to do with equal rights, discrimination, hate or bigotry, but whether or not same-sex marriage would be good or bad for our country.  As I’ve shown in Gay Marriage: Even Liberals Know It’s Bad, the evidence clearly shows same-sex marriage would be detrimental to everyone which is why we should oppose it.  

            If the California Supreme Court overturns Proposition 8, the people who will be denied equal rights are the majority of Californians who voted for it.  The rights of more than six million voters will be denied by four judges who refuse to acknowledge a false and preposterous premise. Only democracy will be in the closet at that point.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Frank Turek is the award-winning author or coauthor of three books including Correct, Not Politically Correct: How Same-Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone and I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. His TV show airs Mondays at 8 pm ET on DirecTV, Channel 378. To learn more visit www.CrossExamined.org.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
GOD'S punishment for homosexuality
GOD destroyed cities for the act of same sex activities. Sodom and Gohmorow(sp) were destroyed and all the people with it. GOD never meant for two same sex individuals to come together as one, in the manner that a husband and wife does. It is each persons choice to choose the sex of their partners, but GOD doesn't smile down on you, any more than He did Adam and Eve for disobeying Him. Still, you are the one who will be held accountable for your actions. You owe no one an explanation, but GOD, and you WILL stand before Him someday. Good luck.

As you said anderson...
"The function of the courts are to interpret law, rule on points of law, not make law according to the whims of social justice majors."

Or more to the point their function is to interpret the CONSTITUTION!! They are not bound by legislative law but ONLY by the Constitution and you know that as well as I do, and there most certainly IS a BIG difference in the two in some cases!

And they did NOT ‘make law’ on the whims of social justice majors as you said above! They made a ruling based on the CONSTITUTION just like they are required to do!! They did not invent a law Anderson! They simply applied the Constitutional law of Equal Protection and applied that to determine the validity of Prop 22! Their finding was that Prop 22 violated the Equal Protection clause so it was overturned.

In the end it does not matter that you don’t agree with it. They did their job and interpreted the Constitution, it is as simple as that.

You disagree with their decision which is your right; it does NOT however change the fact that they did their job to apply Constitutional law to make their ruling.


A post script to my previous reply
AlsoveIsEqual, the 13, 15th, and 19th amendments all guarantee rights to minorities, all brought about by the majority of the people, not by judicial fiat.

The framing fathers took pain to protect minorities. You should have learned that

LoveIsEqual, you are so blinded
It ceases to be funny.

You have no clue what and how the functions of the Supreme Court are or how they were derived. The constitution never outlined the functions of the Supreme Court. NEVER. The constitution is silent on the functions of the Supreme Court.

Here is the case that summarized what the functions of the Supreme Court are. They are followed today. One Supreme Court justice basically set the functions of the court.

Marbury vs Madison, 1803.

Take a moment and read the summary, especially the last line:

http://www.tourlaw.edu/patch/casesummary.asp

Also to put to bed more of you mis-information, the 13th amendment ratified around 1866, empowered the Congress to force racial desegregation. This amendment was ratified :

BY THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE. Not born of some judicial justice demand.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h232.html

The function of the courts are to interpret law, rule on points of law, not make law according to the whims of social justice majors.

hi anderson
Being that you're not a member of an unpopular and much maligned minority...you're really in no position of expertise whatsoever on the motives and abilities of said minority.

And as for that minority, a popular vote regarding their status and ability to FULLY FUNCTION in our society was not Democratic and on face, Prop 8 had a predictable outcome.
A minority such as gay people, like Jews...deserve and must have protection from the sort of hostile whims the majority has expressed. The microcosm of TH comments, reflect society at large.
This doesn't make your feelings or opinions on gay people right, and the response the correct one.
No more than white people being a majority would have been right to uphold Jim Crow.

And THEIR reasons were based on the firm belief that black skin made a person inferior and unfit to live with whites and share their valued and traditional institutions.

Well, heterosexuality doesn't imbue anyone with any superiority in character or virtue or ability, anymore than color would.

And the courts were shown proof of that.

And the judges had to agree that there is no rational basis to exclude gay people from the protections of the Constitution, nor marriage.
The courts couldn't find any reason that gay people DESERVED exclusion or that inclusion had negative impact on anything else at large.

The judges were hard pressed to agree with the state's attorney.
And would be to agree with the opinions (not proof), in THIS forum as well.

Not without having to EQUALLY restrict heterosexuals with the SAME issues. And they can't, and clearly..neither can anyone else.




Then just how do you explain?
First anderson I said the Supreme Court is the guardian of the Constitution, not equal rights per se.

For you to say they have no right to overturn laws which violate the Constitution would void many decisions which various state Supreme Courts have made + many decisions the US Supreme Court has made! Just as the most obvious example; when the US Supreme Court overturned the ban on inter-racial marriage! They overturned a ban which voided ALL remaining state laws to the contrary and ruled that from that time forward ALL states must recognize and issue licenses for inter-racial couples!

That decision was based on it being in violation of the US Constitution!

So please don’t sit there and tell me that they don’t have a right to do this! To make this claim is ludicrous!!

In short, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter to consider the Constitutionality of things just such as Prop 8!!

No, LoveIsEqual, guess again.
J. Harvie Wilkinson US Court Of Appeals, 4th Circuit, recently made some comments about your personal view view of the courts.

He argued that liberty is diminished by:

"handing our democratic destiny to the courts."

He further called for judicial disengagement from divisive constitutional issues.

You may read his arguement intact, by reviewing Heller, the recent DC gun ban case.

The California supreme court justices should have taken note.

The Supreme court is not, and never has been a guardian of anything concerning equality or injustice. After all, the Supreme Court upheld slavery. A KKK leader, Hugo Black was appointed to the Supreme court by Roosevelt during his term.

A guardian of equality? NOt hardly. Slavery was ended not by the Supreme Court, but by the blood of several hundred thousand citizens.

You and your brethern want judges to overrule anything you do not approve of, by claiming a status you are not.

If you think that this type of end run around the will of the people is just, perhaps you should reconsider that thought.

anderson, no you don't get it
I said the Court’s job is Guardian of the Constitution. Their job to uphold equal rights comes into play when a group is being denied equal rights in VIOLATION of the Constitution! So, no their job description does not have to do with equal rights but as Guardians of the Constitution one of their secondary functions essentially does boil down to that, because if someone’s rights are being violated it is probably also in violation of the Constitution!!

That is not legislating from the bench as you put it! Court after Court throughout history has overturned illegal law and initiatives when they are in violation of the State or US Constitution! Don’t tell me there is no precedent for this! If you really believe this you must have blinders on!


LoveIsEqual- What bunk, total poo-doo
You still do not get it.

You are imagining duties of the court. NOwhere is there precedence for legislating from the bench.

That is judicial fiat, and mob rule.

As to unintelligently LoveIsEqual, you need to understand basic functions before you decide what they are for.

Courts DO NOT legislate.They rule on points of law. Need a crayon to help with that picture?

Courts have nothing to do with equality. Maybe you missed it, but in reality no two persons are exactly equal.



anderson...I don't know how even YOU..
can say that!! Their JOB is to be guardians of the Constitution and as guardians it absolutely IS their job (among other things) to ensure Constitutional law is upheld and that includes ensuring Equal Protection (Equality) to all citizens!

For you to say otherwise is really, really unintelligent to say the least!

If an initiative violates the Constitution, then it is the Supreme Court’s job to overturn it and you know that as well as I do! If a voter approved initiative re-instated slavery as acceptable, you would be the first to agree that the Supreme Court not only has the right to overturn it but a DUTY as well!!


LoveIsEqual- you do not get it
The Supreme courts mission is to clarify points of law, and to review decisions made for correctness, concerning points of law.

The Supreme Court is not a body that offers constitutional interpretations on equality.

A point in fact:

The Supreme court turns away more cases than it accepts.

What you are doing is suggesting judicial fiat concerning social issues is legitimate. It is not.


CapeConservative #206
The Supreme Court's job is to interpret the Constitution and ensure that it's citizens are treated with Equality. Now you may not like it, but that IS their job.

Allen - I believe it is NOT legal
for judges to make laws - so no matter what else you wish to expound on, I say both states have been hoodwinked by 8 judges! And the millions of citizens of these states should have the right to demand the judges stick to determining if law if followed, NOT SET LAW!

That's it for me. Goodnight.

and Ken...
You don't have any gay friends. Do you know what a giveaway it is, when you state an avowed reasoning that any gay person cannot or shouldn't share the same opportunities for happiness and security that you do through marriage.

Sometimes it's possible to not actively feel yourself especially prejudiced if you don't so something directly against them.
But certain issues will reveal what you really are and what you're willing to DO when those friends aren't looking or can't confront you...is the point.

There are plenty of white people who have smiled in my face, even given me a birthday present...but when it came to personal issues directly affecting MY LIFE and how I could control it myself...they weren't who they or I thought they were.

That special phony assumption about your relationship with the gay people you think you know, bears another look. At YOU.
They can't do anything else about what you think of them and they can't know what you're willing to do TO them, with what would matter the most to them.
And they can't do to you, what you have the power to...to THEM.
As a friend, YOU wouldn't utilize it.

Believe me, you have NO gay friends.
Trust between friends is what makes friends.
And the gay people you know, have no reason to trust YOU as their friend.

I see that
When questions arise, such as those of polygamy..they are only questions, not facts.
They are based on conjecture, not reality. And I answer those questions, or try to simply.

MY question below. Was ignored, but it WAS important and I'm assuming that it was tough for the brainless...and so easy, the more intelligent here had no need to answer it.

The courts ruled with regard to sexual orientation, that this was about more than just the genders of the parties who wanted to marry.

Heterosexuals can marry another heterosexual. They can marry someone who shares their oriention.
The court found no reason to deny that homosexuals cannot marry another homosexual.

Giving a flip answer that gay people can marry the opposite sex brings another question already answered by the smarter people here.
Would YOU, anderson...Ken, et all...want to marry a lesbian?
Mother of 4, would you want your daughter to marry a gay man?
Or your son to marry a lesbian?

Or your gay child to marry someone of the opposite sex?
What do you think would happen?
How utterly SELFISH that gay people SHOULD marry YOU heterosexuals.

How absolutely weird that your idea of a gay person choosing is the rock of no relationship at all, or the hard place of having sex with you.
It's either get with God or get with you as curing their 'defect'.

And continuing to believe this is the right course, regardless of all the casualties and failure in the wake of it.

The illogic, contradiction and plain old irrationality has NO bottom.
So...answer the question.


Ron...
my name is Allen.

Thank you for a good discussion.

Well thank you too whatever your real
name is. :-) I've enjoyed the discussion because you've been open and cordial as well. Take care.

Thank you Ron...
Though I know we disagree in our opinion I DO want you to know that I respect your opinion! I seriously mean that and the reason I respect your opinion is that you got into what I view as an ‘open’ discussion and though you had your opinion, I believe you listened with an open mind!

I truly respect that even if we don’t agree in our final opinion of the matter.

Seriously, thank you for an open discussion Ron!

Happy Holidays!

Also Ron...
At this point we will probably never know what ‘would have happened’ had this been simply put to a vote of the Electorate. When you look at the MILLIONS spent on both sides of this issue and the CLOSE call that Prop 8 resulted in; it is very possible that marriage for same sex couples might have been approved by the Electorate if simply left to a vote without all the campaigning!

I guess we’ll never know the answer to that question, will we? We can only guess but we will never know for sure.


Opinions, Opinions, Opinions
Well we can defend OUR opinions until the cows come home and it won't make a bit of difference. Right now the only opinions that matter are those of the CA High Court. It will be interesting to see if they think that Prop 8 was a revision or an amendment and what the opinion of each Justice turns out to be. Will it be 7-0, 6-1, 5-2, or 4-3? Whose legal opinion will win out? And then what next step will the losers in this dispute take.

It's been an interesting discussion and I've learned a bit about constitutional law over the last week or so but I see no reason for me to continue commentating. Ultimately, my opinions don't matter and, no offense intended but, neither does the opinions of those who have commented here matter much. Take care all. :-)

Ron #196
First of all Prop 22 was in 2000, not 1990. Secondly it is the legislature’s duty to be in tune with the will of the people in their respective jurisdiction. I do not pretend to know how much in tune with their Electorate they were.

Now I’m not questioning Arnold’s decision on this. I know he was operating on principle and doing exactly what he felt was right and just and I respect him for that. He himself stated that either the people OR the Supreme Court should have the final decision on this issue. Now you may not agree with me and that’s fine but I see this as a Civil Rights issue of Equality so I believe the Court made the right decision.

In the end, Prop 22 was overturned by the Supreme Court so now the decision for the ‘current’ case must be made in light of the law as it existed before Nov 4th. Was Prop 8 a revision or an amendment? Ultimately the question before the Court really does boil down to that.


Same thing in MA CapeConservative..
Marriage Equality was already allowed in your state, therefore a simple majority cannot take that right away!

As I understand it in MA, a change to the Constitution which takes away an existing right must be approved by the Legislature for TWO sessions in a row before going to the Electorate. And I believe (though I could be wrong) that it then also requires a 2/3 approval before your Constitution can be revised.

Those are Constitutional requirements. The other side was NOT successful in getting this through the Legislature therefore it was never put before the Electorate.

If a simple majority can take away existing rights, where would our country be today? Most likely there would be many states still not allowing inter-racial marriages among many other issues! We would still be most likely in the 19th century in terms of Equality.

The Constitution necessarily requires VERY stringent and strict procedures to be followed to revise the Constitution – the framers of the Constitution purposely made this very difficult to achieve and rightfully so!


SO WE'RE BACK TO THE 'WILL OF THE PEOPLE
huh? Look at what you're saying, LoveIsEqual. You claim that the legislature reflected the will of the people so same-sex marriage should have been law. And big, bad Arnold vetoed it.

Well he should have because it's more than obvious that the legislature did NOT reflect the will of the people. Prop 22 was passed in 1990 and the legislature was trying to overturn that vote. ARNOLD reflected the will of the people which was reinforced by the passage of Prop 8.

You were willing to abide by what you thought was the will of the people expressed through their representatives as long as you got the outcome you want. But now that the will of the people does not grant you want you want, you want to overturn the will of the people.

CapeConservative #193
The issue of the day is that before Nov 4th, same sex couples had the right to marry. Prop 8 took that right away by a bare majority (52%). According to Constitutional law any fundamental change to the Constitution (which in my opinion includes taking AWAY an existing right) constitutes a ‘fundamental’ change.

Fundamental changes are referred to as a revision and not an amendment. A revision requires legislative involvement (or a Constitutional convention) and must receive 2/3 approval before being put to a vote by the Electorate. If it then goes to a vote before the Electorate it also requires a 2/3 approval to revise the Constitution.

Prop 8 not only did NOT go through the Legislature but also did NOT receive even close to a 2/3 majority. Therefore the final decision will be left up to the Supreme Court to determine if this was indeed a revision or an amendment.



However, I fear that the
judges will overrule the citizens who cast their well-considered votes.

Just as in this state, where the legislature and governor have not even allowed voters an opportunity to express their concerns with a law that came from the judiciary!!

So Many Whys
Why should the election results in a law-abiding country be questioned???

If the vote had gone the other way, I'm sure the homosexual community would have been satisfied with the results...so what is the reasoning for questioning it now? Are the voters somehow different and not worthy of casting a vote??

I am upset that a perfectly good word, gay, has been taken over to somehow make homosexuals feel more ?????? I guess I've always felt that a correct vocabulary should be used when discussing issues. So WHY?

I am also upset that I can no longer hang my rainbow windtwister since the homosexual community has deemed it "their" symbol! Not for everyone who simply thinks it is attractive...WHY??


Ron # 190
I respect your opinion even though I disagree. We all have opinions.

And to clarify: yes I meant that if all 7 had agreed with a rationale basis it probably would have been unanimous to uphold Prop 22 and if all 7 had agreed on a strict scrutiny it probably would have been unanimous to overturn Prop 22. That is exactly where I was coming from – I’m glad you could see that.

Again it was my *personal* opinion that the 7 Justices probably agreed in principle that same sex couples should be entitled to marriage but 3 of the Justices felt that only rationale basis was warranted and in that one section even indicated that we could probably achieve that through the normal initiative (democratic) process.

Eventually that would have probably worked as well – no disagreement there. One of the complications was that twice the legislature (who represent the people) tried to enact legislation to recognize marriage for same sex couples and twice the Governor vetoed it.

Though there was disagreement on whether the court should act or revert to the legislature, one thing is clear to myself and many others – there is inequality when it comes to marriage for same sex couples. We cannot marry someone of the opposite sex because we are not sexually or emotionally compatible, therefore we have NO viable option. We pay taxes and participate in all manners equal to our heterosexual counterparts in society so how can we be rightfully denied the same legal protections?



No it does not anderson...
Did you even read all the links I provided? Did you read and understand that polygamy is NOT a sexual orientation?!?

Did you read or research on your own the other reasons why polygamy is not legally recognized?

I gave *my* interpretation about another aspect of what the dissenting Justices wrote in the marriage case. I stated it as MY interpretation and not fact since I don’t pretend to know what was in the Justice’s minds!

You state your opinion as FACT when the page you referenced makes NO such statement! I would be ok if you stated it as your opinion but NOT when you state it as fact because it does NOT explicitly say any such thing!

So do your own research on polygamy and look at the reasoning I gave for why polygamy is NOT a sexual orientation.


LoveIsEqual #183
"If there had been agreement on the ‘strict’ vs. ‘rational basis’ aspect, then the ruling would have been unanimous."

Maybe I misunderstood the above. Did you mean that if every Justice felt that it should be decided on "rational basis" that they would have unanimously voted to uphold Prop 22 and that if every Justice decided that a "strict basis" was necessary they would have unanimously voted to strike Prop 22?

If so, that's just begging the point. If you recall my post #178 which started this part of the discussion, I stated that even with highly trained legal experts, decisions are a matter of opinion, not absolute legal "truth". So, in this example we have a difference of opinion as to whether the issue should be decided on a strict or on a rational basis. 4 say strict and 3 say rational. So who's right?

The answer to that question leads to opposite rulings on the issue. I would have to go with the rational basis as it seems to lead to the ruling I believe is correct, that Prop 22 should have been upheld. You have your opinion and I have mine. Your opinion is supported by 4 legal experts. Mine is supported by 3 legal experts. Not much of a difference, huh?

LoveIsEqual, Really?
Back to engaging in selective heterosexual discrimination.

It is fine for homosexuals to marry, but not three heterosexuals?

What are the legitimate reasons that you say exist LoveIsEqual for denying polygamous marriages?

And incestual as well?

Your Ca. court ruling says exactly what I posted



And one more thing
Polygamy is not a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has to do with whether you are sexually attracted and compatible with a person of the same or different sex! Polygamy is NOT a sexual orientation because you can be attracted to a male or female but your attraction is not exclusive to only multiple people! Does that make sense to you? A person cannot say I am attracted to a male or female but ONLY if it is multiple males or females!

A person is attracted to either a male or female. A homosexual can ONLY have attraction to another of the SAME sex. A heterosexual can ONLY have attraction to the opposite sex. A bisexual can have attraction to BOTH sexes and therefore has a choice!

Food for thought!


Further, anderson
As the first link I gave you above illustrates, people who believe in polygamy have an option – they can still marry!! There are other legitimate reasons for denying legal recognition of polygamy besides just ‘aversion’ to the practice.

Gay people have NO option to marry!! And I know you are going to get on your high horse and say that we are free to marry someone of the opposite sex!

But that is NOT an option – any more than it would be an option for you to marry someone of the SAME sex! And for you to use that as an argument means that you are promoting loveless marriages and such marriages are extremely detrimental to the people involved and indeed on society!

So again in the end, gay people have NO option to marry but a person who believes in polygamy does have an option. And a bit of research along with the links I sent you above would tell you there are many reasons for the law not allowing for polygamy!


Anderson #185
There is no way you can draw that conclusion without ‘reading between the lines’ substantially! Nowhere in there does it even suggest such a thing as polygamy, incest, etc!!
See:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2006/0 3/a_simple_point_.html

for one opinion article on the matter.

See also:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ssmpoly.htm


once again LoveIsEqual
I just showed you where the court ruling does in fact allow marriages of other sexual orientations. READ IT.

Use your own link, as I said, page 3, start with the second paragraph and commence to read it very carefully.

Try and understand what it says before you decide you THINK you know what it says. That paragraph and the following ones deal with sexual orientation, etc.

That section allows marriage of any person, who wants to. READ IT.

Your response to Ron in no way refutes his points.

The opinions and writings by Baxter is clear.

So is page 3.

Further, anderson
Your 'slippery slope' arguments are w/o merit! In countries where marriage equality for same sex couples has been in place for quite a few years, no such push has ever been instigated for things like polygamy, incest or whatever! Certainly not to my knowledge - can you show me otherwise?

Ron # 181
No I’m not being disingenuous with you. I am paraphrasing *my* interpretation of what the Justices wrote in their dissenting opinion.

When Justice Baxter says:
“decision, Justice Baxter contends, the majority “violates the separation of powers, and thereby commits profound error.” Citing the legislative progress that gays and lesbians have already achieved in California, Justice Baxter urges that the future definition of marriage should also be decided by the democratic process, not by the courts."

I am surmising that her opinion is based on the ‘strict’ vs ‘rationale’ question. In other cases I have looked at, a Justice’s decision on whether the Supreme Court has jurisdiction is many times based on one of these two standards of review. Typically if the ‘rationale’ basis is used, courts many times defer to the ‘democratic’ process feeling that the affected party has other options of remedy other than the Supreme Court. Whereas the ‘strict’ standard of scrutiny is typically invoked when the Supreme Court feels there is no other reasonable course of remedy for the affected parties.

So again I am giving *my* interpretation and I referred you to the URL so you can draw your own interpretation. So, no I am not trying to hide anything from you.

And Anderson, I have news for you – I am probably one of very few people who actually read ALL 172 pages of their decision in May 2008! I also listened to the entire proceeding through the live Internet feed!

Anderson, your statement in #182: “That means polygamy, incest, and any other sexual orientation also have the right to marriage based on the CA supreme court.”
Is completely false! Show me where their ruling has anything to do with these other things! Sexual orientation has nothing to do with polygamy, incest or any of those other scare tactics you and others try to use!


LoveIsEqual- on Ron
Ron makes points that are hard to dispute, and his conclusions are based on legitimate facts.

On various threads many posters have remarked about the slippery slope of homosexual marriage, and what it will lead to.

The long and short of the arguement is that it leads down the path to moral equivalency, and the legitimizing of all behaviors currently not permitted in marriage.

You have emphatically denied any link to that slippery slope, and challenged posters on that premise.

Yet, the Ca Supreme court decision(May 15, 2008) allows exactly that arguement to take root.

Evidently as Ron points out, you do not take the time to read something, you simply come to a conclusion based on a product of circular reasoning.

Page 3, second paragraph in the news release refutes your past points on every thread. (Link in your post to Ron)

Allow me to quote:


"The opinion explains that the core substantive rights embodied in the right to marry include, most fundamentally, the opportunity of an individual to establish- with the person with whom the individual has chosen to share his or her life- an officially recognized and protected legal family."

The court defines that protection as marriage. Language then goes on to elaborate on the fact that an individuals sexual orientation is not a basis to deny marriage.

That means polygamy, incest, and any other sexual orientation also have the right to marriage based on the CA supreme court.

All of the other posters who have articulated the slippery slope of homosexual marriage arguement are correct according to your own references.

Ron is correct, you are cherry picking facts to support your arguement.

Even your own references say so.




LoveIsEqual
First of all, I want to tell you that I appreciate you pointing me various documents that I had been unable to find or myself. Thanks. :-)

Secondly, I need to point out to you that you are apparently not reading what I've written very carefully. My logic doesn't state that the majority (in any decision) IS wrong...only that it COULD be. Accordingly, I will only admit that the majority decision regarding Prop 8 COULD be wrong.

You apparently are also not reading your own source material very carefully either. At the site you referred me to it was reported that Justice Baxter " disagrees with the majority’s holding that the California Constitution invalidates the statutes — including an initiative measure recently adopted by the voters — that define marriage as an opposite sex union. In reaching this decision, Justice Baxter contends, the majority “violates the separation of powers, and thereby commits profound error.” Citing the legislative progress that gays and lesbians have already achieved in California, Justice Baxter urges that the future definition of marriage should also be decided by the democratic process, not by the courts."

He goes on to enumerate other disagreement with the majority decision based on substantive issues, not procedural one. Justice Corrigan does the same.

Did you miss this or are you being disingenuous with me? Are you only picking out facts to support your POV and ignoring those facts that do not?

Ron, now can you see the point..
That by the logic you yourself indicated, that it would indeed be wrong for a simple majority of the Electorate (in this case 52%) to strip a group of their established rights? That is why Prop 8 is really a revision and not an amendment.

The three dissenting opinions of Baxter, Chen and Corrigan were in my opinion more a disagreement about whether sexual orientation should be decided under the ‘strict scrutiny’ or ‘rational basis’ test.
As I read it, it was not really a disagreement about the merits of the case but rather that the 3 felt it only warranted ‘rational basis’ review in which case the ruling would have officially been the opposite.

The 3 Justices named felt that the normal process would have eventually led to marriage equality for same sex couples. The majority 4 Justices felt that ‘strict scrutiny’ was needed because of a history of oppression against minorities (homosexual in this case).

If there had been agreement on the ‘strict’ vs. ‘rational basis’ aspect, then the ruling would have been unanimous.

See:

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/presscenter/newsreleases/NR26-0 8.PDF


And BTW
If the California Supremes had voted in May 4-3 that Prop 22 did NOT violate the equal protection clause, the same thing applies. It would be a matter of opinion and not necessarily the correct ruling.

LoveIsEqual
Yes, I've been doing some more research and have found you are correct. But I've also read the equal protection clause in the California constitution and I don't see a case for applying it to same-sex marriage. Now you may say that the California Supreme Court, legal experts, HAVE found such as case. But it's interesting to note that 3 Justices said banning same-sex marriage does not violate California's equal protection clause while 4 Justices said that it does.

Now, theoretcally, each of these Justices is equally knowledgeable about the law and yet an almost equal number of Justices disagree with the majority. I've noticed that a lot in US Supreme Court rulings. Most are 5-4 votes.

It seems to me, then, that unless a court ruling is at least 6-1 in California or 7-2 in SCOTUS, then the ruling is more than likely simply a matter of opinion and not necessarily correct.

Furthermore, even though my personal opinion is not based on a great deal of knowledge of constitutional law, it does agree with 3 of 7 justices whose opinions ARE grounded in knowledge of constitutional law. We all know that in any issue, simply being in the majority does not guarantee that one's opinion is correct.

Ron, regarding Constitution
The State Constitutions cannot deny a right to its citizens which has been determined to be granted by the US Constitution, but a State Constitution absolutely can infer rights which has not been interpreted as existing under the US Constitution.

As the following link shows, slavery was abolished in some states before it was abolished in the US Constitution.

http://www.usconstitution.net/stateconst.html

Another link: see page 90
http://books.google.com/books?id=1XU_wyqgdVgC&pg=PA90&dq=ca n+state+constitution+have+rights+not+in+us+constitution#PPA 90,M1

While the US Constitution trumps state Constitutions, it does so only if a right guaranteed under the US Constitution is being denied under the State Constitution. The lower Constitutions (e.g., state) can always grant “more” rights than the US Constitution.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Nelson

It states: “Baker v. Nelson, 291 Minn. 310 (Minn. 1971), 409 U.S. 810 (1972), was a case in which the Minnesota Supreme Court ruled that Minnesota law limited marriage to opposite-sex couples, and that this limitation did not violate the United States Constitution. The plaintiffs appealed, and the United States Supreme Court, 409 U.S. 810 (1972), dismissed the appeal "for want of [a] substantial federal question".....

This dismissal was for what the court considered “lack of a federal question”, Federal being the operative keyword.

The only way the US Constitution could “prevent” a state from interpreting a marriage right for same sex couples would be if there was an explicit revision of the US Constitution which “prohibited” it. This is why Bush tried to change the US Constitution to include this language which he fortunately was NOT successful in doing.

Any legal scholers out there?
So my question is...can a law banning same-sex marriage violate the equal protection clause of a state constitution but NOT violate the equal protection clause of the U.S. constitution? Doesn't the U.S. constitution take precedence? I'm not asking for uneducated opinion here. I f you can't point to a legal proof of your answer, please don't bother.

Lockyer v. San Francisco (cont.)
As the United States Supreme Court has explained, a dismissal on the ground that an appeal presents no substantial federal question is a decision on the merits of the case, establishing that the lower court’s decision on the issues of federal law was correct. (Mandel v. Bradley (1977) 432 U.S. 173, 176; Hicks v. Miranda (1975) 422 U.S. 332, 344.) Summary decisions of this kind “prevent lower courts from coming to opposite conclusions on the precise issues presented and necessarily decided by those actions.” (Mandel v. Bradley, supra, at p. 176.) Thus, the high court’s summary decision in Baker v. Nelson, supra, 409 U.S. 810, prevents lower courts and public officials from coming to the conclusion that a state law barring marriage between persons of the same sex violates the equal protection or due process guarantees of the United States Constitution. The binding force of a summary decision on the merits continues until the high court instructs otherwise. (Hicks v. Miranda, supra, 422 U.S. at p. 344.) That court may release lower courts from the binding effect of one of its decisions on the merits either by expressly overruling that decision or through “ ‘doctrinal developments’ ” that are necessarily incompatible with that decision. (Id. at p. 344.) The United States Supreme Court has not expressly overruled Baker v. Nelson, supra, 409 U.S. 810, nor do any of its later decisions contain doctrinal developments that are necessarily incompatible with that decision... Until the United States Supreme Court says otherwise, which it has not yet done, Baker v. Nelson defines federal constitutional law on the question whether a state may deny same-sex couples the right to marry." Lockyer V San Francisco (Kennard, J. Concurring and Dissenting)



LoveIsEqual #168
I might be wrong. I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a Constitutional scholer but I have been doing a lot of research lately reviewing the writings of those who ARE legal experts. This is from a court ruling in Lockyer v. San Francisco: In 2004, Justice Kennard of the California Supreme Court noted the precedential value of Baker in her Concurring and Dissenting opinion in Lockyer v. San Francisco:

"[I]ndeed, there is a decision of the United States Supreme Court, binding on all other courts and public officials, that a state law restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples does not violate the federal Constitution’s guarantees of equal protection and due process of law. After the Minnesota Supreme Court held that Minnesota laws preventing marriages between persons of the same sex did not violate the equal protection or due process clauses of the United States Constitution (Baker v. Nelson (Minn. 1971) 191 N.W.2d 185), the decision was appealed to the United States Supreme Court, as federal law then permitted (see 28 U.S.C. former § 1257(2), 62 Stat. 929 as amended by 84 Stat. 590). The high court later dismissed that appeal “for want of substantial federal question.” (Baker v. Nelson (1972) 409 U.S. 810.)

One last point LoveIsEqual
The function of any court is to enforce laws.

Protecting a minority is not a court function, what you are doing is providing an illegitimate basis for judicial fiat.

More propaganda.

LoveIsEqual- Nope
In 2010 homosexual marriage will lose even worse. If it is on the ballot. My guess is that other states will soon pass other proposition 8 like measures.

Homosexual marriage is going the way of the do-do bird and the unicorn.

What you espouse is a theme, a battle cry, and facts have nothing to do with it.

Your arguements have deteriorated into nothing more than propaganda statements.

and yes anderson I read the article...
but Turek is completely wrong on all counts!

anderson...we have been down...
this path before. The Supreme Court refusing to hear a case before does NOT prevent their becoming involved when it IS necessary - which is exactly why they have agreed to hear the case now!

Now I don’t pretend to know how they will rule but you are NOT correct to say that the decision is final at this point in time!

One of the court’s responsibilities is to protect the minority, even when it goes against popular majority and you know that!

Even if the CA Supreme Court does not overturn Prop 8 (which is still a revision) it will not change the fact that come 2010 it will be voted right back out again! So at least as far as CA goes, two years tops and marriage equality will be restored!

Don’t agree or not – I really don’t care. Time will tell!

Historically, EQUALITY always WINS out!! It may take time but ultimately the lessons of history PROVE that it always happens sooner or later!!

LoveIsEqual- no way.
Do you ever read an article before commenting?

On dozens of threads you are skewered repeatedly on the false facts you present.

Now you espouse the homosexual court line about an amendment vs a revision. That issue was raised to begin with, and you homosexuals lost. That is why prpoposition 8 was allowed to proceed.

On November 21, 2008 on the front page of the USA Today your own homosexual spokespeople admitted the majority of citizens in this country do not agree with homosexual marriage.

This article brilliantly underlines how most people feel. Redefining marriage is a terrible waste of time and effort, and :

Flat wrong, morally, historically, and on every level in society.

Ron you are quite simply wrong!
The US Supreme Court refusing to hear a case in no way prevents a State court from making rulings based on their own state Constitution!

Mark my words, the US Supreme Court will be involved yet again within the next 4-7 years and they will rule on the side of Justice and Equality and overturn any bans on marriage equality for same sex couples which still exists! It will be a landmark ruling that will compel all states to quit discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and marriage!

And Prop 8 most certainly did REVISE the CA Constitution as it took away an existing right! Prop 22 was ruled to be in violation of the Equal Protection clause, therefore Prop 8 is in violation as well since it has the same wording as Prop 22!

The Constitution CANNOT conflict with ITSELF! That should tell you something.

OOPS!
I meant OPPONENTS of Prop 8 in my previous post, not proponents.

Baker v. Nelson
Baker v. Nelson (1971).

In 1972, the U.S. Supreme Court dismissed the appeal of the Minnesota State Supreme decision that banning same-sex marriage does not violate the 14th amendment. The SCOTUS dismissed the case on merit, which I'm given to understand means the plainiffs had no case. In doing so, the SCOTUS affirmed that banning same-sex marriage does not violate the equal protection clause and made their ruling a binding precedent. That means that no lower court can rule in contradiction.

The May 2008 California State Ruling was in contradiction, therefore in error and illegal. So, for proponents of Prop 8 to claim that the initiative changed the basic structure of the State constiution is invalid.

The California court based it decision on Perez v. Sharp (1948) which was similar to Loving v. Virginia in that it had to do with race, not gender. Therefore, according to Baker v. Nelson, that 1948 ruling no more prohibits a state law from banning same-sex marriage than does Loving v. Virginia.

replyi to Mark # 2
So the gays are responsible for Hitler's treatment of them? I knew some real right-wingers post on TH, but you, dude, are really on the edge. Want me to get you a copy of paragraph 175 of the old German criminal code?

reply to Isaiah 35 and 36
Reply to 35: You still don't refute my argument. The anti-miscegenation argument you cite is actually based on two of the three theories I listed--both the "nature" theory and the "biblical" theory. Anti-gay marriage right-wingers continue to make both sorts of claims, and you provide no counterargument.

Reply to 36: By your so-called logic, a heterosexual couple who reproduced either through obtaining sperm from a sperm bank would be reproduicng with genetic material from "outside" the relationship. Do you want to make this illegal too?

Response #156
Absolutely correct. Only Hitler used the gays in his rise to power. He knews that they were self-centered, whacko bastards who hated everyone, especially Jews and Christians. Hell, they even hated their own kind and forced "feminized" gays to wear "pink" stars unless they joined the Gestapo, which by the way was created by a gaytard...

Gay Marriage
Watch what happens over this. If the CA Supreme Court throws this out, it will mean the recall election for these Judges, and we will have to elect Judges that understand civil rights of the vast majority of citizens, and not the violent and vocal minority who are acting like insane crazy children....

WELL SAID, WELL PUT....
...and another thing....its HOW GOD ORDAINED THINGS!!!!!!!!!!

James in NY #131
Wrong guess. Want to try again?

Linda #158
Ok, Linda you hereby have the right to marry, but only to someone of the SAME sex!!

I'm sure you would agree that this would NOT be equal because it would force you to change a core part of your identity and become something you are not!

There is NOTHING equal about that!!

Common Sense
I agree with Mr. Turek 100%. Claiming that you don't have equal rights as a homosexual is ridiculous. A gay man has the same rights as a heterosexual man to marry a woman. No one has taken that right away. What these people are asking for are EXTRA rights due to their sexual desires. Now THAT's what I call bigotry.

marie of CA - No Logic Here
Marie, you must be a young, or at least immature, person. Your claim that black people fought and died for the right to marry white people reveals a wealth of ignorance.

OK a little "I Know - I Was There" history lesson. Back in them thar days, races (incl blacks) disapproved of interracial marriage. It was OK for a white man to sc--w a white woman, but not marry her. Do you not recall the uproar and almost-riots that took place when the black singer Diahn Carroll married a white man?

A few states (CA, IL, +DC) would issue legal marriage licenses to interracial couples, but not all states recognized the marriage. Most Southern stgates (DEMOCRATS) made interracial marriage between w/b a felony (so-called misogyny laws).

What actually happened was interracial military couples used (the above) as an excuse to avoid duty assignments to various area. THE MILITARY sought clemency for interracial couples assigned to those states. On thing led to another, SCOTUS got involved, mysogyny laws declared unconstitutional.

Still, interracial marriages were rare EXCEPT for the military. Soldiers occupying Germany and Japan after WWII began marrying girls from those countries. Even so, B&W marriages were fairly rare until the 1970's when men and women began servicing in the same "branch" (no more WAC or WAF or SPAR or WAVE or ...)

In the late 1960's early 70's, the black population increased dramatically and so did B&W marriages. As they increased in the military, they became more acceptable in the civilian population.

Although some black men have been lynched for "fouling" white women, and some may have been hanged by vigilanties for marrying white women, NO ONE FOUGHT AND DIED FOR THE RIGHT!

Class dismissed!

Another Thought
I have now concluded - positively - that the homos and lezzies are desperately trying to prove that Mr. Hitler and the Muslims had/have the correct idea concerning GAYS.

Michael in KY #81
I've seen your posts all over the various threads on this subject, and I must say that you are some piece of work young man. You claim to be a Christian, yet your writings and the conduct exposed in them is far from Christian. One of your recent posts (#81), you attack Gracie935, calling her a liar and sinner and implying she's a hypocrite. I would point out that the focus of Turek's article is CA's Prop. 8. In CA, our gay neighbors DO have the benefit of civil unions, affording them most, if not all, of the rights and benefits enjoyed by married people. I'm sure Gracie935 was responding with respect to the CA situation. Yet you take her post out the context in which it was intended, cite something irrelevant, and call her a liar, sinner and hypocrite! Mr. self-proclaimed Christian, you Gracie935 and apology.

Continuing...

matthew from CA
Actually that is exactly how our country was founded.

A person or group has an idea. They then sell the idea to the larger group. If the larger groups agrees the entire group votes and approves or disapprove it.

What Liberals typically like to do is by-pass that democratic process and seek out a Liberal Judge who doesn't care about written law.

The result is a nation of men not a laws. It is very destructive to the country.

Response to Scott:
Pederasty is not the same as homosexuality. Pederasty (men with boys) was more common in Greek times than now because society was structured differently in Greek times and made allowances for pederasty that our modern society doesn't.

Interestingly, pederasty is more commonplace and acceptable now in Islamic society than in western, even though homosexuality in Islam is condemned.

Homosexuality is not harmful in our society the way pederasty is harmful to the young. You will no doubt argue that there are homosexual specific diseases, but all forms of VD result also from heterosexual contact.

Homosexuality stems from a biological imperative for individuals, i.e. it is congenital. Not genetic, but congenital none the less, with biological causes speculated about but not fully understood. No one can
'catch' it, and nobody can be 'converted' to it, or from it either. In the rare case of someone seeming to have 'converted' to homosexuality, they simply became aware of what was there all along.

And anyway it's not black and white, it's a continuum. Few are completely gay or completely straight. Most are predominently, but not exclusively, one or the other, and most people are mostly straight.

Whichever you are, though, you should be allowed to be without having to pretend to conform to some societal fantasy about the proper 'sexual role' of 'manly' men and 'feminine' women.

Gene #151
Thank you, I had just looked it up myself and was going to respond when I refreshed the page and noticed you already did. :)

Happy Thanksgiving all!

To Doug (again)
I found the article. It was in Time magazine, June 17, in the 'Science and Health' section. But it was also reported by BBC news and, I think, in the NY Times (Science Times).

Anyway, just Google 'Gay Brain' and you'll find it.

Problem is in the first paragraph
"The truth is every person in America already has equal marriage rights!"

This is not true: Men only have the right to marry women, while women only have the right to marry men. Forget about desires or orientation, this is plain, ordinary sex discrimination on the same level as hiring only male pilots and female flight attendants.

more bs
marie wrote:
What are you so worried about? Nobody can make another person gay. You children will not be "made gay" by gay marriage.

While I realize the above statement is tantamout to throwing one's hands up in the air when they don't have a logical counter argument, I still feel the need to address it. I feel obligated to address it because it's not 100% true and it represents a lack of deep and unemotional thought. The behaviors societies promote or condone will flourish...even sexual values. Right now I can see people thinking to themselves..."This guy's crazy. There's nothing that would ever make me want to have sex with a person of the same sex." Well I understand that initial reaction, but part of the reason you feel that way is because of the influence of the society in which you were raised in. With that in mind, consider this. The practice of men taking on young boys as sex partners was widely practiced and condoned in ancient Greek society. How does one reoncile that fact? Do you think there was just an inordinate amount of homosexuals in that specific part of the world? Of course not. The obvious answer is that our sexual behavior, at least to a certain degree, is formed by our society's beliefs on the subject. Hell go to a club and witness the amount of girls behaving in a very sexual manner with other girls. Just 20 years ago I rarely saw this behavior, but now I see it all the time because society has deemed it acceptable. So while Mr. Turek's argument is more than adequate on it's own, I still think this should be considered. It's naive to think and say that the more mainsteam homosexuality becomes that it won't have an increased effect on the amount of homosexual behavior in society. One could argue that okay, but to deny that it won't have an effect the behavior of future generations is naive.

Response to Isaih:
I live in San Francisco, so my experience may not be commonplace, but I personally know two homosexual couples, one pair gay, the other lesbians, who have agreed, and are in process, of creating two separate families with the genetic material of all four parents. How they accomplish this physically is nobody elses business, but there will be children of male A and female B, and children of female B and male A, or perhaps one of the other two combinations, but in any case, offspring genetically derived from the four parents.

Among their motives is that they know each other well and prefer to know what their children's genenetic heritage will be, which would be less likely with other kinds of donor programs.

This may or may not seem 'immoral' to you, but it certainly defies your 'logical' argument against the possibility of homosexuals pro-creating.


To doug
You're right and wrong: I can't point to it, because I don't remember exactly where I read it, perhaps in Science Times, but recent studies have shown that the brains of gay men and lesbian women are structured more like those of straight women and men, respectively. In other words, there is physical evidence of brain differences between gay vs straight men, AND between lesbian vs straight women, where those differences revealed similarities with the brains of the opposite sex.

Again, I can't point to the article, but you could probably Google it.

In any case, you know as well as I do, because you've seen them with your own eyes, that there are obviously prissy, swishy, skinny, effeminate man, and bulky, butchy, coarse, masculine women. You've seen them, and you've probably looked away.

What you apparently refuse to understand or acknowledge is that there are millions of others, albeit still a minority of all people, who LOOK normal but are still gay - Rock Hudson and Montgomery Clift for a couple of famous examples. Also, Cary Grant, James Dean and Bette Davis, in case you didn't know.

Otis got it right....
...when (s)he said gay marriage is, "a crossing of the line where the State interferes with traditional religious practice."

Depending on your point of view, marriage is a religious institution sanctioned by the state, or a civil institution embraced by the church.

Which one 'owns' marriage? The Church or the State? That is the crux of the argument. The California Supreme Court has agreed to hear the primarily religious arguments in favor of Proposition 8 and the primarily secular arguments that Prop 8 is unconstitutional, and they have the unenviable task of resolving this question.

I'm betting that they will strike it down, partially on the grounds that the state's interest in the trappings of marriage trumps the Church's interests. We shall see.

Much like the pregnant man
This statement has nothing to do with reality. "Gay men and Lesbian women ARE the opposite gender, sexually, except for their physical equipment. They CANNOT form a lasting marriage bond with persons of the 'physically' opposite sex any more than a 'normal' heterosexual male could form a lasting marriage bond with another man - it's not possible."

Or can you point to a medical journal or university study that shows that "gay men or women" are not the same as someone that is straight and the same sex. I doubt it

Excellent article - just wrong!
Turek has managed to cram in almost every argument that has so far been made by anyone to justify denial of equal rights to homosexuals.

Go see the movie 'Milk' if you don't understand what's at stake here.

Gay men and Lesbian women ARE the opposite gender, sexually, except for their physical equipment. They CANNOT form a lasting marriage bond with persons of the 'physically' opposite sex any more than a 'normal' heterosexual male could form a lasting marriage bond with another man - it's not possible. So claiming, as Turek and others try to do, that gays and straights have the same marriage rights is simply preposterous.

Former New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey tried that avenue and failed, miserably. He not only lost his marriage, but his Governorship in the process, and was sued by his wife, not only for divorce, but for FRAUD for deceiving her about his sexuality.

This whole article is just thoroughgoing nonsense. It is complete and exhaustive B.S.
Everyone who is remotely honest with themselves knows that there are 'queers' in our midst - swishy, effeminate men, and bullish, dikeish, buzz cut women. These are the obvious ones who NOBODY thinks has the slightest chance of attracting and marrying a person of the opposite sex, even if they WANTED to, which they obviously don't.

Less obvious are the thousands, even millions, of 'passably' straight looking gays and lesbians (Ellen, for example?) who, like the others mentioned above, are NOT choosing to be what they are, but simply ARE what they are, and have as much right to be proud of that as anyone.

Thus far, they are denied legal marriage to the person of their choice, but not for much longer.

Love is equal
What doomsday scenarios?

I dont know what trouble will befall one for denying a specific truth what I do know though that in decieveing oneself about what is known will eventually lead to some type of trouble as in the example I gave above.

Denmark...dont know about it as to this topic. Nor do I know which contries "allow same sex marriage" Nor have I seen reference to statements that it was for the good that they have same sex marriage. 1989 is not that long ago so I would be interested to see what the effects are on the society since then and what the trend of the public is on its society.

This is not Denmark.

doug # 141
There is no rationale for denying Equality to loving same sex couples!

And explain why none of these doomsday scenarios have happened in countries who have had marriage equality for years now, since as early as 2001! Denmark has had same sex couple recognition since 1989 which was equal except for the term ‘marriage’!

None of these countries have had adverse affects from it and they have all said in retrospect that it was for the good that they now have same sex marriage!


Cavell
"I've still yet to see a rational argument explaining why two dudes or two chicks getting married would fundamentally invalidate every heterosexual marriage on the planet."

You're absolutely right there is no rational argument that can explain why gay marriage will fundamentally invalidate every heterosexual marriage.

The reason, becouse it wont!

What society will do by claiming gay partnerships marriage is ignore a basic law of reality. When society trys to ignore reality it will set itself up for conflict with reality. Depending on how set society is in denying this reality will determine to what extent society will be damaged. Much like ignoreing the laws of physics that dont allow one to take a corner in a car beyound what friction will hold it to the road.

Tom #133
You stated: “And I certainly do not want their evil lifestyle shoved down my throat as acceptible.”

We are not ‘shoving’ anything down your throat; it is in fact THE OTHER WAY AROUND! We are fighting for Equality and Civil Rights! It does NOT in any way affect your right to believe what you want or teach your children what you want. We do NOT care if you ‘accept’ us or not, is that Clear enough?!?

What we want and demand is equal treatment and equal rights under the LAW!

It is those on your side who are trying to shove their beliefs on US by saying the LAW has no responsibility to grant us Equal Rights!

History will indeed judge this era in American history as the oppression that it truly is!

Isaiah #89
You stated: “Why should a heterosexual control impulses to have sex with multiple partners? The simple answer is that doing so is more beneficial to the individual and society. I would argue that the same holds true for the homosexual.”

Exactly!! And most loving same sex couples who desire to marry want a committed and faithful relationship as well, just like most straight couples!

Jim # 71
The first really obvious problem with your idea is that ‘separate but equal is NOT equal’!! You ever hear that before? Sure you have and it means just what it says!!

You stated: “When you see the word hippomatus, or alligator, you know exactly what it means, just like Garriage would let you know the subject is idiotic.”

And that illustrates most perfectly WHY separate but equal is NOT equal!! It is because by definition it would relegate us to a class of ‘less than’ our straight counterparts. Even for people who don’t try to discriminate like you are doing, they would not be able to help but view such a relationship as ‘less than’!!

To Old Tom
"My take on this whole issue is that, as someone else has already stated< it's all about lust.
This lifestyle is evil as quoted in the Bible as well as fornication, sex outside of marriage, adultery and all the other vices related to lust."

Yeah, but those are the fun ones. And they're not going to stop anytime soon. Society, like it or not, moved on since the Puritans landed. Not as fast as other parts of the world, unfortunately, but we've always been backwards in that regard.

"As you might remember, there several social diseases that have been contracted by those who go against the teachings of "One man, one woman, united in marriage".
If you live in immorality, you reap it's rewards."

Yeah. VD would never have shown up if everyone just lived the Biblical life. Too bad it wasn't written a little sooner, huh? Maybe a bit closer to, say, humanity's origins? Probably could've nipped it in the bud.

"I will not apologize for the fact that if I had a child or any other family member who might desire the Gay/ Lesbian Movement, I would seek psychological and religious treatment for them."

Groovy. A lot of people do that. Religion solves everything. Incidentally, that's why we don't need stem cell research; good, hard prayer will make both gayness and Alzheimer's go away.

Seriously, though, go nuts. If everybody parented well, we'd run out of strippers.

"This movement is wrong. Totally wrong.
Give them their basic rights as defined by the Bill of Rights, etc., but do not redefine moral living to satisfy a lifestyle that is evil and ruinous all around.
And I certainly do not want their evil lifestyle shoved down my throat as acceptible.
No way."

Your definition of moral living's probably a bit different than mine. You don't win because you have two thousand years of superstition backing you up. If you did, the ancient Egyptians would have us both beat.

Isaiah
No. Quite frankly? You've made the argument that the Bible needs to be interpreted. Anyone who passed senior lit could tell you interpretation's very subjective. You've argued what your personal opinion of the Bible's pedagogy is; that doesn't mean that's what it actually is. When you're dealing with fictional accounts, there really isn't a wrong in terms of personal meaning, is there?

As far as arguing from the standpoint of reason and law, I haven't seen much of that. I've still yet to see a rational argument explaining why two dudes or two chicks getting married would fundamentally invalidate every heterosexual marriage on the planet. That hasn't been the case in other countries. Law? Come on. The Constitution's pretty clear on equality.

But let's go ahead and take scripture out of it. There's still nothing I can think of that would convince me that two consenting individuals of legal age and not of primary relation to each other should be forbidden from marrying if they're in love. Or, hell, even if they're not. Plenty of people get married for vastly different reasons.

Who was it that said conservatives want government to be small enough just to fit into people's bedrooms? This is simply an extension of that. You lost the fight against keeping the lifestyle itself in the closet, and I think you're aware that you're ultimately going to lose the entire war. Might not happen this decade, or the next, but it will happen. Society progresses. Always has, always will.

Procreation not primary for marriage.
Just a small point but every time this issue comes up there is the insistence that traditional christian marriage is primarily for procreation. I dont think that is biblical. I think that it is bigger then children and I think the reference to my thought on that is in the begining chapters of genesis (chp. 1-7) not sure of exact location.

As to the references to multiple wives given in the bible I would suggest that there is the ideal and then there is the human intervention to the ideal.


Great article!
Thanks for your very astute and clear headed opinions on the reasons for not redefining marriage to suit the homosexual community. Very well said!

The Gay and Lesbian Movement
My take on this whole issue is that, as someone else has already stated< it's all about lust.
This lifestyle is evil as quoted in the Bible as well as fornication, sex outside of marriage, adultery and all the other vices related to lust.
As you might remember, there several social diseases that have been contracted by those who go against the teachings of "One man, one woman, united in marriage".
If you live in immorality, you reap it's rewards.
Unfortunately there are those who are victims because the diseases brought on but such evil lifestyles, those who receive blood transfusions from donated by drug users and gays.
Families who were ruined by unfaithful partners.
I will not apologize for the fact that if I had a child or any other family member who might desire the Gay/ Lesbian Movement, I would seek psychological and religious treatment for them.
Medical treatment would not be needed because it is a social illness with no biological reason.
This movement is wrong. Totally wrong.
Give them their basic rights as defined by the Bill of Rights, etc., but do not redefine moral living to satisfy a lifestyle that is evil and ruinous all around.
And I certainly do not want their evil lifestyle shoved down my throat as acceptible.
No way.

denying what is.

Regardles what I or you or anyone else wants, Marriage can no more be changed with effect then can renameing a rock a feather.

Call a partnership between two same sex people what you will, it will not change what it is. The only thing that will result is the deceptive denile of the truth. Defying this basic truth is simular to denying gravity.

No one seeing a rock would consider it to have the same use as a feather just as stepping off the side of a tall building while screaming gravity does not exist change the fact that you will fall.

No matter how open my mind is to debate I will not vote for something I know does not exist, no matter how much I may want it to be different.

Explanation for Ron in OR
I guess it is because you are a bigot

Cavell #112
You mischaracterize my arguments. Our exchange involves two topics. One is an assault on the validity of Biblical teachings. The other is whether gay "marriage" should be part of our society. While the two topics cross on the issue of the morality of homosexuality, they remain distinct issues.

I have not argued that homosexual marriage should not be allowed in the US because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Where you make erroneous claims about what the Bible teaches, I have attempted to correct those claims.

When I make an argument against gay marriage, or against various false analogies offered to support the concept, I rely on reason and law rather than the Bible for the substance of my argument.

I understand that some will be utterly unconvinced if scripture is offered as a reason to deny gay marriage, so I don't attempt to use the Bible to persuade such a person.

Others may be convinced that homosexuality is wrong if the scriptures so declare, but will be unwilling to push their beliefs on others. Again pointing to Biblical condemnation of homosexual behavior does not persuade, so I use other arguments.

Still others may be convinced to support homosexual marriage if they can be convinced that the Bible is not against homosexual behavior. Since I don't want such a person to be misled, I will argue scripture when a person tries to mischaracterize the scripture.

Gestell #114
You misunderstand what our side is saying. While it is true that individual homosexuals are capable of reproducing, all such couples must seek genetic material from a source outside of the "marriage". The "marriage" is sterile in the sense that no offspring can result from the union of the couple.

This is true with every homosexual couple, and unless attempts are made to disguise the sex of one of the persons in the couple a cursory glance by anyone is all that is needed to know for a certainty that the two individuals will never produce a child together.

Gestell #116
I can't find the earlier post to which you refer where you gave what you thought were the main reasons for the miscegenation laws so I can't respond to it.

That aside, the main reason offered for the laws was that the whites didn't want the race diluted through marriage with the "inferior" races. This is why the laws allowed chinese to marry blacks, but whites could marry neither. That argument against interracial marriage is ridiculous, but is in no way comparable to arguments against gay marriage.

Analogies are useful tools when the two things being compared have relevant similarities. The problem with the gay/interracial marriage analogy is that the two have virtually no relevant similarities. This makes the analogy weak and unconvincing.

Adam & Eve??
they were the first 2 people?Not 2 women,2 men.They had children.Isnt this the way its to be????How else to populate????

Matthew #117
It is interesting that your post has a comment about how there is now way to rationally discuss the issue with the religious which is bracketed by lengthy rants devoid of rational argument, but full of name calling.

I am a Christian, but if you care to examine my posts, you'll see I don't rely on the Bible to support my argument against gay marriage. I have refuted arguments which attempt to mischaracterize Biblical teachings, but those argument are not part of the case against gay marriage.

Gay Marriage....

First, prove you're Gay - and not a typical sad case of disordered personality.

Good luck :)


SAme sex?
How can same sex get married if not agreed with GOD?It is done in the church right?GODs church.
What right does the minister have??

Edit
• Report on Homosexual Parenting Shown to be Biased
http://www.cfacr.org/pages/article.php?aid=794
- The link to Dr. Quick’s analyses in the article is broken here is the proper link.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007_docs/Analysisofgaypar entingreport.pdf
ly

You lost me at desire...
No one knows if it's desire, choice, environment, genetics, biology or egad, God's will for someone to have a proclivity to the same sex. Try opening up your mind and more importantly, heart.

Articles to Consider
I see alot of opinions being thrown around here without any references to back them up. So I thought I would provide some secular resources for the "traditional marriage" side

Visit http://www.marriagedebate.com

Use the search engine and look around. The pdf's can be a long read but a well-informed conscience is not made in a 2 page article.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Three-Year Follow-Up of Same-Sex Couples Who Had Civil Unions in Vermont, Same-Sex Couples Not in Civil Unions, and Heterosexual Married Couples Department of Psychology, University of Washington, USA.

This study was a 3-year follow-up of 65 male and 138 female same-sex couples who had civil unions in Vermont during the 1st year of that legislation. These couples were compared with 23 male and 61 female same-sex couples in their friendship circles who did not have civil unions and with 55 heterosexual married couples (1 member of each was a sibling to a member of a civil union couple). Despite the legalized nature of their relationships, civil union couples did not differ on any measure from same-sex couples who were not in civil unions...

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~rothblum/doc_pdf/sexual_orientat ion/Three-YearFollow-Up.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Report on Homosexual Parenting Shown to be Biased
http://www.cfacr.org/pages/article.php?aid=794
The link to Dr. Quick’s analyses in the article is broken here is the proper link.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007_doc/Analysisofgayparen tingreport.pdf
ly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Monogamy's Law: Compulsory Monogamy and Polyamorous Existence
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=506242

@Mathew #117
"The main reasons why people are against gay marriage is because of what has been taught by their religion. It all comes down to the control that religious fundamentalist have over the minds and hearts of the American population"

I was not raised in a family that went to chuch. I never went to church as a child, or as a teenager, or as a young adult, and I do not go to church now. No religion has ever "taught"e anything. And yet I am not in favor of same-sex marriage. How do you explain that?

a qualification
I want to qualify before I get attacked that I think marriage should be between two adults of legal age and consent who are not related.

I was taken that as a given in my above statement but I could hear the crazies saying "what about brother/brother and sister/mother" and all that crap.

You haters seem to think gay marriage will be some sort of slippery slope which is just another strawman argument you have constructed and not to mention just another smear and fear tactic.

Bobaz
"Cavell, you moron, it's your generation that keeps voting against same sex marriage. Who do you think makes up the 65% that keeps the hhomo's off the marriage rolls, us old ffarts?"

Think you may want to re-read your exit polls there, sport.

equality is important
There is no real rational reason why gays should not be allowed to marry. The main reasons why people are against gay marriage is because of what has been taught by their religion. It all comes down to the control that religious fundamentalist have over the minds and hearts of the American population.

The church and the Republican Party is ran by the radical rabid religious right.

It is what some call the "American Taliban". They want to force their warped view of morality on everyone.

They want to legislate hate and discrimination.

It is even hard to have a rational conversation with these fringe radical religious zealots.

To have freedom of religion we have to have freedom FROM religion.

marriage should be a union between two adults of consenting age. gender should have nothing to do with it, period.

The fight for marriage equality and for equal rights for gays will continue.

Though no side will surrender I am sure history is on our side (the side that fights for equality).


reply to Isaiah
Whyinhe** can't you learn to spell the freakin' word, anyway? Miscegenation is the word. As for your explanations, they are legal gobbledegook. I identified the three main justifications for these laws in an earlier post. The parllels between the reasons for bans on interracial marriage and the reasons for bans on gay marriage are pretty dam* close. I still say that if you, as a right-winger, belive that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry, you should logically be in favor of reinstituting anti-miscegenation laws.

Cavell Says ...
"The nice thing about all this is, my generation will be taking the place of your generation in a couple decades. Y'all won't be around to see it, but this'll end up a bit like the whole "married couples on TV finally being shown sleeping in the same bed" scandal. We'll look back and wonder what the hell you Leave It To Beaver-types were thinking."

Cavell, you moron, it's your generation that keeps voting against same sex marriage. Who do you think makes up the 65% that keeps the hhomo's off the marriage rolls, us old ffarts?

reply to Retired Geek
Where in the world do you, and other right-wingers, get the idea that homosexuals cannot reproduce? Time and agin this line is repeated by conservatives as if it was (a) true and (b) proved anything of importance.

There are plenty of lesbians who have become pregnant and given birth to children. There are certainly gay men who have fathered children.

Do you folks really believe that homosexuals are biologically incapable of reproduction? Where do you get such idiotic misinformation?

Since reproduction is such a big deal for conservatives, I have a proposal, offered in the hope that conservatives will take appropriate action on it. Anyone who seeks a marriage license must be required to prove empirically that he or she is capable of reproduction. This would certainly add dignity to the process of getting marriage, and there would no doubt be some great videos posted on YouTube if such a proposal was enacted.

Now, can conservatives get their noses out of our reproductive system and get back to cultural and religious hatred and persecution like God intended?

Ind Observer
"What you do with this planet after I'm gone is your problem, not mine. In the meantime I will continue defend my rights. "

What rights of yours are being threatened by gay marriage, pray tell? What do you lose the ability to do if Bob and Frank get hitched?

If my girlfriend and I ever tie the knot, our marriage won't suddenly become worthless because two dudes do the same.

Isaiah
You just made a grand argument for interpreting the Bible any way you please. Like it or not, once you get into the realm of determining "the nature of the law, the purpose it was to serve and whether it was about right, wrong, or possibly morally neutral," you've opened up the possibility of drawing any message you like out of it.

Look, we can debate the truth of the Bible all day long. Neither of us is going to convince the other. I'm not about to take one single unverifiable source compiled some 1700-odd years ago as the end-all, be-all of wisdom. Your arguments against homosexuality (to bring this back on topic) rely on faith; arguments from faith simply don't hold any water with me or people like me. That's not a gap we're ever going to bridge.

You seem like a smart enough guy, so I trust you understand where I'm coming from. It's a matter of faith to you; it's the complete opposite for me. There's no way we could ever agree on it, thus we could go round and round on gay marriage...well, for eternity, really. Arguments from faith do nothing for me, arguments against faith do nothing for you.

Cavell
What you do with this planet after I'm gone is your problem, not mine. In the meantime I will continue defend my rights.

Cavell
Leviticus is a complex intermixture of laws whose purpose is secular with those whose purpose is sacred. Much of it applies only to the nation of Israel. Some of it shows what is right and wrong. Other parts deal with things that are inherantly neither right nor wrong, but which Israel was to do. It is necessary to determine the nature of the law, the purpose it was to serve and whether is was about right, wrong, or possibly morally neutral, before an attempt should be made to draw a conclusion about that which we should do as individuals or nations today.

The second thing that is required to properly understand the message of the passages you cite, is for the Bible to be viewed as a whole. If you eliminate New Testament principles and teachings, you can't have an accurate understanding of Old Testament passage. A number of new testament passages specifically say that various Levitical passages are not binding for Chrisitians.

The New Testament also stands for the principle that things which once required the death penalty while remaining wrong, no longer require that penalty. Adultery is an example of this.

Basically you have to view the Bible as a whole book rather than several unconnected passages. When viewed that way, it is clear that homosexuality is wrong. That theme is repeated in both the old and new testament. No passage suggests that it is acceptable behavior. No passage suggests it should be encouraged. Passeges in both the old and new testaments suggest that it is sinful behavior.

Additionally, the only type of sexual relationship endorsed by the Bible is that between a married man and woman. Homosexuality doesn't fit in that narrow context and is Biblically wrong.

The passages you cite do not share the same Bible spanning clarity of message. They are limited in applicability to the nation of Israel during old testament times.

Retired Geek
Preach on, brother!

The nice thing about all this is, my generation will be taking the place of your generation in a couple decades. Y'all won't be around to see it, but this'll end up a bit like the whole "married couples on TV finally being shown sleeping in the same bed" scandal. We'll look back and wonder what the hell you Leave It To Beaver-types were thinking.

Michael #88 wrote:
"Isaiah-- isn't it cruel to expect gays to never date, fall in love, make love, or form relationships?

Isn't it cruel to expect gays to marry straights even if they don't love them or find them sexually attractive?

Do you want straight women to marry gay men?

Do you want a lot of unhappy loveless marriages?"

Let me respond with another question. Is it cruel to deny all those things to a pedophile? I would suggest no, and that the this shows that if that which one desires is unacceptable, then there is nothing wrong with denying fullfillment of those desires.

The second point is that redefining marriage is not necessary for a gay person to experience most of what you propose. They can date, fall in love, make love and form relationships whether they marry or not. The same is true for straight couples.

I also do not suggest that gays should be required to marry anyone. If they want to marry a straight woman and she assents, I have no problem with that, but I wouldn't push such a thing on either of them. All your comments about such marriages are misplaced since such compulsory activity is not suggested by anyone.

Finally, your assumption that it is not possible to love or enjoy a long-term relationship with someone to whom you are not sexual attracted is flawed. Sexual attraction can fade over time while the true love at the heart of the relationship remains strong. Conversely a relationship which starts without the attraction can see it grow as the love grows.

Homosexual Marriage is an Oxymoron

Homosexuals want respect of both themselves and their lifestyle - yet most homosexuals and certainly their leaders, show NO respect for anyone else and their lifestyle.

The goal of most Homosexuals is a complete and utter vulgarization of society.

Ever watch a Homosexual parade? The only goal is to shock and degrade any semblance of normality.

This is NOT about 'Civil Rights', but about 'Vulgar Rights'.

There are no orderly quests for Civil Unions which most Americans would agree to - rather it is a vicious attack on anything 'Sacred' - anything 'Traditional'.

Most Homosexuals hate themselves and anyone who does not agree with their vulgar lifestyle.

Regardless of what Homosexuals gain, it will never be enough to satisfy or sate their unnatural lusts.

Homosexuals want to deny others freedom of religion, freedom of speech and even freedom of thought - unless all others praise them and their deviance from normality.

The concept of live and let live is 'Anathema' to militant Homosexuals.

Homosexual Marriage is about a license

Why did the government become involved in marriage?

Modern Marriage started in 1753 in England and Wales and it was named the Marriage Act of 1753 or Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act and it called for the couple to be at least 21 years old and if they weren't then they needed the consent of the parent.

Before this law the couple could be as young as seven years old and get married.

They also had to get married in a church or the marriage wouldn't be legal.

The original Marriage Act was the result of the many orphans being abandoned and becoming a burden on society.

The Marriage contract made men responsible for their children relieving society from the financial burden of raising those children and placing it where it belonged.

'Collectivists' always want to take the 'Bad Decisions' and actions of individuals and place the results of those bad actions and decisions on othe American Citizens in the name of 'Sacrifice For The Common Good'.

The Marriage act NEVER had anything to do with sexual preferences but rather the protection of children - which Homosexuals cannot have by definition.

Homosexuals want the rights and benefits extended to those who conceive and bear children even though they are incapable of procreation.

Society by law, decided to extend benefits to the blind.

Analogous to what Homosexuals want by 'Homosexual Marriage' is for a sighted citizen to receive the same rights as someone who is blind.

Homosexuals immediately respond by citing instances where a man and woman are married that are incapable of procreation, because of medical issues.

Present laws do NOT require a medical exam to prove the ability of a couple to procreate before marriage which of course be a violation of privacy rights.

Every American Citizen has the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as any other American Citizen.




Isaiah
Actually, it doesn't. It comes out of the same book that condemns homosexuality; all those quotes the fundies like to throw around about how God hates gays? They come from the same exact place that states God also hates those who ignore the difference between clean and unclean animals. Go look it up. I think homosexuality's around Leviticus 18, while a lot of the burning-people-alive stuff - including prostitutes, by the way, so Nevada has some pyres to build - is later on, like say maybe the 20s.

You can interpret, or you can not, but you can't interpret one chapter and then take the next as literal truth. It doesn't work that way.

Cavell
Pay more attention to what is being said. I was responding to a post that was speaking only about the Bible and was implying that the Bible endorses polygamy. That assertion is incorrect and I attempted to show that. I in no way connected that view to policy in this country. Please don't mischaracterize what I am saying.

Your final point demonstrates a flawed understanding of Biblical teachings. Try reading the Bible as a whole with an intent to understand what the author is trying to say rather than what you want it to say.

Michael
Divorce and adultery are not at issue here so there is a good reason for Patrick and others to not be talking about those issues. Aside from that, it would be wise to make divorces more difficult to obtain, and to have punishment of some sort for adultery. The current laws with respect to both do significant harm to children and spouses, and encourage people to give up on marriages too early.

To Isaiah
If the sum of history for you is the Bible, then I'm not terribly surprised you'll find an example for every single one of your viewpoints. I could come up with a book full of unverifiable parables, too, and call it a day.

I suspect if you glanced at a history text, you'd find more than a few polygamous rulers who did quite well. But hey, that's not really the way the religious right operates, is it?

And, just by the by, if we're going to be taking the Bible as the absolute, undeniable word of God, I better see you out there killing farmers who plant their crops incorrectly, or stoning to death those who have to work a shift on Sundays.

Mike
"Oh, I doubt the framers of the US Constitution or any of our laws for the first 100 years or so ever thought that same sex marriage would EVER be an issue. If they could have seen into the future, assuming they wouldn't have just given up in frustation, they would have put specific provision banning same sex marriage. So, the standard arguement that what the US Constitution doesn't forbid, it permits, doesn't work in this case."

Sure. And I'm sure they'd be thanking the red scare for finally getting around to slapping "God" all over our cash, too.

Look, if you guys want to seriously get into the debate about the framers, objective history might help. Anything written by a guy with "Rev." in front of his name is probably not objective. A bunch of secular humanists who had to make concessions to whackjob northern Puritans is pretty much what they were.

Carolyn
What happened every time those men had multiple wives? Disaster resulted didn't it. These men strayed from the ideal, the standard that God set and they, their children and the generations that followed paid for it. I can't think of one example of a man in the Bible with multiple wives whose life wasn't made worse because of his polygamy.

Abraham's attempt to produce an heir before God's time led to his rejection of the mother of the son as well as the son. There was long-standing emnity between the lines of Isaac and Ismael because of what Abraham did.

Jacob took two wives and treated the children of one better than the children of the other. The result was jealousy between the two sets of children which led to Joseph being sold into slavery.

David had multiple wives which led to the death of an infant son as well as war between David and Absolom (another son). David's reign was marred by his taking multiple wives.

Solomon had multiple wives and at the end of his life wrote about how that failed to satisfy. His reign suffered because of this and the kingdom split following his death.

While God is able to accept and use people despite their sin, this does not mean that there actions aren't sin, nor that those actions are acceptable.

Each story of polygamy in the Bible is a cautionary tale that informs of the ill effects that are produced in the lives of the practitioners and their descendants.

Mother of 4
"Utter nonsense.

The definition of marriage is immutable and predates recorded history."

Two ways of debunking this garbage. One plays ball with your premise, the other doesn't. I'll start with the one that doesn't:

"Recorded history" doesn't begin with the Book of Genesis, contrary to what your preacher might suggest.

Even if it did? No, you're still wrong. You might be mildly right for Western culture after the rise of Catholicism - again, not when history started, by any means - but hey, at least you're closer. You just have to throw out the balance of human existence both in terms of time and geography.

I really do love it when fundamentalist Christians get into the history game. You have dinosaurs walking around with humans, and Thomas Jefferson as some sort of evangelical, rather than, at best, a deist.

Nonsense
But same-sex marriages can’t procreate or provide a mom and a dad to kids.

This is about the most tired old argument you can come up with - on this basis women who are post-menopausal shouldn't be allowed to marry. Or infertile men.


GESTELLE* YOU SILLY SAVAGE YOU

.....Hate is good ...like fear it is a defense mechanism to identify and protect one against ones enemies ...

.....JOIN "HATE" NOW TO SAVE THE HUMAN RACE

.....GESTELLE* ....awhile back I founded "HATE"
(Humans ARE the Environment) to stem the tide of
eco-nuts and enviro-weirdos who are trying to destroy
the Human Race ...

.....The premise for this org. is that humans are
superior to tse tse flies and assorted vermin and that
humans should be in charge of things ...our mission is
to hunt and eat all endangered species ...in this way
we are helping nature do its job of ridding the Planet
of species that cannot adapt and thus should be
allowed to become extinct ...

.....Polar bears and seals and whales are an important
part of the food chain and should be hunted to feed
all the impoverished and hungry children in the world
...kangaroo rats should be trapped ...Delphi sands
flower loving flies should be swatted and California
gnats should be sprayed ...

.....Members of the Sierra Club, Peta and the Gay and Lesbian alliance should be
rounded up and confined to asylums infested with sand
fleas, biting black flies and crabs. .....COLOSSUS

Patrick
Patrick, if marriage is an issue not to be compromised then why are you not advocating for a legal ban on adultery and divorce?


Good Grief!
Have ANY of you so called Christians even read the Bible??? I'll help you out: Start with Genesis 22:24; 35:22; 36:12, Genesis 16:1-3; 25:5-6; 1 Chronicles 1:32. Then try Deuteronomy 21:15-17. Multiple marriages in fact were common. Please go ACTUALLY read your Bibles before using it's words to prop up your feeble, empty arguments.

Gay Rights
All of this nonsense will end when a gay partner decides to get divorced and asks for alimony. They will scream that is unfair.
We could simplify this even more, just remove all laws against behavior and lets have at it. Unfortunately citizens get together, and decide what is best for society, to protect the rights of each other, and we have to live by these laws. Polygamy and other laws against multiple partnerss do not make sense when there are a shortage of either sex in a society, and yet we still have laws against such behavour.
Gays have the right to Civil Union or any other legal agreement between two partners, but marriage was spelled out in the bible, so it's a religious ceremony. That does not keep any person from cohabiting together if they wish, just not in a legal recourse when it fails to work out for each party. Until the Federal tax laws are changed, only male/female marriage is legal in the United States.

THE PEOPLE HAVE HAVE SPOKEN
MARRIAGE IS AN ISSUE NOT MEANT TO BE COMPROMISED.

Gays and Love
Gays can certainly love whomever they want. So can I. But it doesn't mean I have to have sex with them. I've loved one woman since she was fourteen but I'm old enough to be her father. So we have a good friendship instead.

Anyone can be chaste if they have the desire and reason. I don't care if they are or not - but I do recommend that they aren't promiscuous since it spreads disease too easily. It does NOT require an acceptance of anyone's life style though.

Carry on, Isaiah. You are doing a fine job.

To Allen #22
I am not sure if you are new to TH or have just become interested in this debate, but this topic has been raging for months. Every week there was a new op-ed about why gay mrriage was terrible and how the author theorized it would lead to the Rapture.

I have a firm belief that most of the opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights is rooted in the Bible. Christians have become very sensitive to any negativity being associated with them or their views. So, the anti-gay marriage activists have to construct reasons for opposition that are not based on religion. This is what I meant by bogeymen, and Turek uses them liberally.

Gay marriage really isn't the issue. The issue is homosexuality itself and society's role for it. Anti-gay activists claim there is no place for gays in society. They use words reflective of their opinion of us: "deviant", "debased", "immoral", "sodomites","filthy", etc. They believe being gay should still be a crime, or maybe treated as a mental illness, and if government recognizes gay marriage, then other bad or horrible things will follow. It is this fear-based reactionary emotion that leads to belief in the "gay agenda", or that gays are Marxists, or that the USA is being subverted by foreign powers. Yadda, yadda, yadda...

On the "gay marriage" nonissue
Turek's column is spot-on--especially as those lobbying for it will then aim at US State Department (on marriage-based visa issuance) and USCIS (with which many of the procedures for marriage-based visas have steps dealing) and really open floodgates and slippery slopes.

Rudolf
You mistake my point. I didn't say they have to control their urges. I said they are capable of doing so. Arguing that they can't dehumanizes them.

Why should a heterosexual control impulses to have sex with multiple partners? The simple answer is that doing so is more beneficial to the individual and society. I would argue that the same holds true for the homosexual.

Isaiah
Isaiah-- isn't it cruel to expect gays to never date, fall in love, make love, or form relationships?

Isn't it cruel to expect gays to marry straights even if they don't love them or find them sexually attractive?

Do you want straight women to marry gay men?

Do you want a lot of unhappy loveless marriages?

Question for Isaiah.
Why exactly would gays have to control their urges to have gay sex? Why is that any of your business? Just because you don't like that idea, why do others have to go laongwith that?

Homosexual 'marriage'
Logically speaking; since man and women were designed to procreate there would be NO homosexuals without Heterosexuals. In other words, we 'breeders' are the only Human Beings who can produce offspring and thereby prolong the species.

Flaming Liberal #79
The constitution makes no mention of pedophilia, so I suppose that according to your logic discrimination against pedophiles is unconstitutional.

Flaming Liberal #74

I made this point in an earlier post and I'll reiterate it. Your position is more dehumanizing than that held by the author of this piece. Animals are slaves of their instincts and impulses. Humans are not. Humans can control their various urges including the urge to engage in homosexual sex. Your side argues that this urge can't be controlled and regulated. Additionally citing examples of homosexuality in nature as justification for human homosexuality is likwise dehumanizing. Human behavior is not justified by similar animal behavior. Or do you suggest that when a man marries a woman with children from a previous marriage, he should kill those children like a lion taking over a new pride.

To Fidler #15
The only states granting civil unions are Vermont, New Jersey, and the District of Columbia. The only states allowing full marriages are Connecticut and Massachusetts. By my count that makes five...

The following states do not prohibit same-sex marriages: New Mexico, Wyoming, Maryland, New York, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Connecticut. All the rest do.

Not to get into an argument, but how many states constitute "many" in your mind? What was that argument about gays not being subject to unfair discrimination?

Isiah
Isiah- I think the state does have an interest in encouraging marriage and thus monogamy in the gay community.

Also it is better for children of gay and lesbian couples for their parents to be married-- the same for children of straight couples.

Homosexual Marriage
Oh, I doubt the framers of the US Constitution or any of our laws for the first 100 years or so ever thought that same sex marriage would EVER be an issue. If they could have seen into the future, assuming they wouldn't have just given up in frustation, they would have put specific provision banning same sex marriage. So, the standard arguement that what the US Constitution doesn't forbid, it permits, doesn't work in this case.

Gracie935
Gracie935 from KY, what are you talking about? Civil Unions are banned in Kentucky and 19 other states.

So you can't lie and say that all gays are allowed Civil Unions.

Lying/bearing false witness is a sin. You break one of the Ten Commandments and yet you judge gays.

Woe to thee, hypocrites.

MJ and Gracie935
The biggest lie I read in these threads is that gay people have access to civil unions that offer all of the same rights as marriage. Nothing could be further from the truth. Gracie's comments are not worth the dignity of a response. Be my guest Gracie and vomit all over in the privacy of your own home. MJ tries to make a valid point only to have facts get in her way. I think marriage between a man and and woman is a great idea - for the 92% or so of the population that is heterosexual. Most readers here cannot for whatever reason accept the fact that 8% or so of the population is born homosexual. State Suprme Courts (Reagan appointees in the case of CA) have very logically ruled that if marriage is to be offered as a government sanctioned right, it must be offered equally in this great land of ours. The issue is marriage equality. We are all pro-marriage. It is utter nonsense to say that some marriages will suffer when there is marriage equality. Churches will not be forced to recognize marriage between homosexuals if they choose not to. The Catholic Church is not forced to marry divorced individuals even though divorce is recognized as the law of the land. Prop 8 will be ruled unconstitutional by the CA SSC so let's accept equality and move on with our lives. There are som many real issues the world needs to deal with.

Reproduction
Argument: The state is interested in marriage primarily because of the reproductive implications of such a marriage.

Counter: Not all marriages involve reproductive couples so marriages should be extended to couples who clearly are not reproductive (gays).

Counter, Counter: The counter argument doesn't give any reason to marry gays. It is instead an argument that non-reproductive couples should not be allowed to marry since their relationship isn't the sort that the government is trying to promote. There are a number of problems with the counter argument. First it would require a significant invasion of privacy to determine whether a heterosexual couple is reproductive or not, while no such invesion is necessary to determine that a gay relationship is inherantly sterile. Second some heterosexual couples appear infertile, but eventually manage to conceive. While it initially appeared that giving them a marriage didn't serve the state purpose, it turns out that the initial perception was wrong. Third no one wants this sort of alteration. Why should the state do that which no one wants it to do?

Again, if gay marriages should be granted by the state, there should be some state interest involved. There is clearly such a state interest in granting heterosexual marriages since such relationships are likely to yield positive benefits to the state. Homosexual relationships yield no such benefits, so there is no reason for the state to get involved in that sort of relationship. While the state should perhaps not impede such a relationship, by refusing to honor contracts between such a couple, there is no reason to promote such a relationship either. Involvement in homosexual relationships serves no purpose, and since the people don't want the state involved in such a relationship it should stay out of it.

2nd Reply to Isaiah
"You could easily find supreme court, and other justices who take a view contrary to that which you espouse. These justices might point out the fact that the constitution in no way mentions sexual orientation and that in order to make it constitutionally protected, you have to make up stuff that isn't there."

This is the exact opposite of what you're saying. If the constitution does not mention sexual orientation, then we "make up stuff" precisely when we discriminate based on sexual orientation, not when we don't.

That the constitution does not explicitly mention sexual orientation is PRECISELY WHY jurists who study it find discrimination against Homosexuals to be unconstitutional.


Flaming Liberal #64
Let's pretend that the first amendment contained a provision which said, "nor shall one man be denied the right to marry another man." If such a provision existed then you would be right. It would be hypocritical to say that you must not extablish religion becuase it violates the first amendment while at the same time arguing that it is ok to ban gay marriage despite the fact that doing so is a violation of the first amendment.

Unfortunately for you and the argument you make, no such provision exists in the first amendment or anywhere else in the constitution. There is no hypocricy in arguing that the government can't do x, becuase the constitution says it can't, but it can do y which is not constitutionally prohibited.

Mother of 4
No, it’s not nonsense at all. What you are doing is claiming something is simple and clear because you are refusing to look at it. And that is one of my initial points. There is noting preposterous here.

Your words, “Marriage IS a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman to form a permanent partnership in order to create a family and to raise any children they may be blessed with.”

What about the couples that are unwilling to have children. There are plenty of them and they fall outside of your definition of marriage.

You respond with “The definition of marriage is immutable and predates recorded history.”
Well, I’m not arguing that point. Consider the situation seriously and respond.

A couple points
I won't try to combat all the antigay arguments here, but I'll start by saying I think my gay friends (and all gay people!) deserve every right and privilege heterosexuals have, including BEING ABLE TO MARRY THE PERSON THEY LOVE.

As far as saying gays and straights have equal rights to marry a person of the opposite sex--well, that's true, but we all know how well it's worked out when a gay person marries a member of the opposite sex. Heartbreak generally ensues, for both partners.

And Mr. Turek shouldn't worry about bisexual people wanting to marry both a man and a woman. Yes, bisexuals have the ability to be attracted to either sex, but generally they fall in love with one person at a time, as the rest of us do. Think of it this way: A man is attracted to women in general, but he falls in love with one and marries her. And, we hope, remains faithful.

Clarification to Mom-O'-4