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Monday, May 26, 2008
Frank Turek :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gay Marriage: Even Liberals Know It's Bad
by Frank Turek
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            Why not legalize same-sex marriage?  Who could it possibly hurt?  Children and the rest of society. That’s the conclusion of David Blankenhorn, who is anything but an anti-gay “bigot.” He is a life-long, pro-gay, liberal democrat who disagrees with the Bible’s prohibitions against homosexual behavior. Despite this, Blankenhorn makes a powerful case against Same-Sex marriage in his book, The Future of Marriage.  

            He writes, “Across history and cultures . . . marriage’s single most fundamental idea is that every child needs a mother and a father. Changing marriage to accommodate same-sex couples would nullify this principle in culture and in law.”  

            How so? 

            The law is a great teacher, and same sex marriage will teach future generations that marriage is not about children but about coupling. When marriage becomes nothing more than coupling, fewer people will get married to have children.               

            So what?

            People will still have children, of course, but many more of them out-of wedlock. That’s a disaster for everyone. Children will be hurt because illegitimate parents (there are no illegitimate children) often never form a family, and those that “shack up” break up at a rate two to three times that of married parents.  Society will be hurt because illegitimacy starts a chain of negative effects that fall like dominoes—illegitimacy leads to poverty, crime, and higher welfare costs which lead to bigger government, higher taxes, and a slower economy.  

            Are these just the hysterical cries of an alarmist?  No. We can see the connection between same-sex marriage and illegitimacy in Scandinavian countries. Norway, for example, has had de-facto same-sex marriage since the early nineties. In Nordland, the most liberal county of Norway, where they fly “gay” rainbow flags over their churches, out-of-wedlock births have soared—more than 80 percent of women giving birth for the first time, and nearly 70 percent of all children, are born out of wedlock! Across all of Norway, illegitimacy rose from 39 percent to 50 percent in the first decade of same-sex marriage. 

            Anthropologist Stanley Kurtz writes, “When we look at Nordland and Nord-Troendelag — the Vermont and Massachusetts of Norway — we are peering as far as we can into the future of marriage in a world where gay marriage is almost totally accepted. What we see is a place where marriage itself has almost totally disappeared.” He asserts that “Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.”

            But it’s not just Norway. Blankenhorn reports this same trend in other countries.  International surveys show that same-sex marriage and the erosion of traditional marriage tend to go together. Traditional marriage is weakest and illegitimacy strongest wherever same-sex marriage is legal.

            You might say, “Correlation doesn’t always indicate causation!”  Yes, but often it does. Is there any doubt that liberalizing marriage laws impacts society for the worse?  You need look no further than the last 40 years of no-fault divorce laws in the United States (family disintegration destroys lives and now costs tax payers $112 billion per year!).  

            No-fault divorce laws began in one state, California, and then spread to rest of the country. Those liberalized divorce laws helped change our attitudes and behaviors about the permanence of marriage.  There’s no question that liberalized marriage laws   will help change our attitudes and behaviors about the purpose of marriage. The law is a great teacher, and if same-sex marriage advocates have their way, children will be expelled from the lesson on marriage. 

            This leads Blankenhorn to assert, “One can believe in same-sex marriage. One can believe that every child deserves a mother and a father.  One cannot believe both.” 

            Blankenhorn is amazed how indifferent homosexual activists are about the negative effects of same-sex marriage on children.  Many of them, he documents, say that marriage isn’t about children. 

            Well, if marriage isn’t about children, what institution is about children?   And if we’re going to redefine marriage into mere coupling, then why should the state endorse same-sex marriage at all?

            Contrary to what homosexual activists assume, the state doesn’t endorse marriage because people have feelings for one another. The state endorses marriage primarily because of what marriage does for children and in turn society. Society gets no benefit by redefining marriage to include homosexual relationships, only harm as the connection to illegitimacy shows. But the very future of children and a civilized society depends on stable marriages between men and women. That’s why, regardless of what you think about homosexuality, the two types of relationships should never be legally equated.

            That conclusion has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with what’s best for children and society.  Just ask pro-gay, liberal democrat David Blankenhorn.  

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About The Author
Frank Turek is the award-winning author or coauthor of three books including Correct, Not Politically Correct: How Same-Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone and I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. His TV show airs Mondays at 8 pm ET on DirecTV, Channel 378. To learn more visit www.CrossExamined.org.
 
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To du
du, relax... and go read about elton john's view of gay marriage. smart man.

hi Athena
We're not talking about animals, we're talking about human beings. Who transcend ALL human cultures, religions and family structures and influences.
Your simplistic pronouncement is for the simple minded. We are talking about a complexity of living and potential your arrogant summation doesn't apply to.
You and everyone who shares your view have no proof or any reason to assume marriage between gay couples will destroy it.
The real lie is in trying to deny or rewrite standards of marriage for gay couples you wouldn't for opposite sex couples.
Lying about the intents and purposes of marriage to a gay couple's face is what made the state's attorny lose in court.
Now the use of the state amendment to FURTHER discriminate against the original creed of all constitutions shows a willingness to abuse it without it's intended gain.
The liars, Athena are who YOU support. And shame on the pack of you.

Homosexual Marriages
Those supporting homosexual marriages lie about the reasons. Even the mourning doves nesting on my balcony are of the two sexes and would not dream of "gay marriage," trying to nest with members of the same sex. Adults can live with whoever they choose, of either sex, with or without sexual relationships. (These are called "roommates.") They can make contracts about money with anyone they choose, wills for willing money to anyone they choose, etc. Those promoting "gay marriage" are trying to destroy marriage and do not care about children.

you never answered
And yes, you are obligated to. How does being one man or one woman or heterosexual in a marriage or in life, that a person is good?
How does one's orientation a measure of character or virtue?

It isn't. But you can go ahead and try and reassure YOURSELF it is.
And THAT is how you lost the argument a long time ago.
It's all TOO obvious that you cannot and don't want to see gay people as HUMAN and as HUMAN as heterosexuals.
That has been the age old mistake...and a poor reason to deny gay people anything.
You like to reassure yourself that being heterosexual is a superior way or instinct in life.Just as many convinced themselves that being white made someone superior to those who were not.

The evidence of that being a lie and false belief is everywhere, and if you want to pretend it isn't or that some people aren't bright enough to see or admit it, too bad.
I don't have to indulge your wishful denial...and eventually most of the public won't either.
Which will also eventually be to the benefit of us all. Reducing prejudice against gay people is as noble as reducing racism proved to be.

never did..
Nope again, dread...my tactic has not been 'anybody who pairs off and makes a pretense of union'.
Not even a good try at putting words that never came from ME.
I have been specific about gay couples and gay parents and have never, not ONCE...defended 'anybody who pairs off'.
This statement of yours is in effect a lie.
So, add liar to the list of how you debate an argument.
I have also been specific about how the law cannot and will not apply to the incestuous or polygamous.
So, you can't even tell the truth in a debate.
See, you're weak, and a pathetic liar.
I don't need reassurance, I already have it. Because lying, denial and fear and ignorance are YOUR obvious ideals, that can't save marriage, but just complicate the lives of gay people. And complicating gay lives is the motive, which won't save anything, not even the ideals that the Bill of Rights and Constitutions represent.
Marriage is defined by two non related, non marriage consenting adults for primacy and custodial care of the other.
Gender and sexual orientation are not relevant. The purpose of life and love affirmation of marriage IS.
And there is no reason why gay people shouldn't also have that choice in their lives.
And you haven't come up with any reason to deny it either.

good for you, du


You have stones. Don't blame me if you need reassurances from others without stones. I only told you the truth.

Marriage is defined as union of man and wife. Your tactic is to include the definition "anybody who pairs off and makes a pretense of union." It's good enough over at HoofingtonPost. Why don't you go there to get your reassurance? You can't be happy otherwise.

check yourself dread
So far dread, your tactic of argument is to deny what a gay couple is and does, or to deny facts regarding legal precedence and obligations to distinctive citizens.
THAT is the indication of losing to fear and ignorance.
I haven't had to use inhumane pronouncements, then deny I said them.
I haven't had to make assumptions, then deny I did.
I've been looking at the entire thread and consistently, you're not even arguing the SUBJECT at hand.
So, in effect...I see why you would be in denial and refuse to engage what is being discussed or ridicule your opposition.
'Taking' marriage, is a strange concept. Marriage is a given, with few exceptions.
The denial defense is the strongest indication of the intellectually and morally bereft.
I at least have the stones to engage the subject fully and comprehensively. Not in abstract terms.
Yes, this is a hopeless subject for YOU dread, because you don't have the stones to face up, and own up. Just deny, deny, deny.
I can't stand a man that's such a wuss he debates like that.



Calling a spade a spade
I wince each time I see or hear the once-lovely word 'gay' as it has been usurped and perverted to mean 'homosexual'. Let's return this word to its original meaning -- 'bright, merry, lively', and call homosexuals what they are: 'homosexuals'.

furthermore, du
Let's not skip over this:

"[The] KIND of sex organs and their use, even FAKE ones...are not YOUR concern. So not the state's either. And a human being, and their love and companionate lives are more than their sex organs."

They're more? Maybe; but they're totally different from a marriage. And nobody's taking love or companionate lives away from them. They're free to cohabit. THEY try to take Marriage as something natural for their love, when it's not.

"Dread, truly...you ARE stupid. Stupid and a BOOR." I see no reason to call you stupid. You're merely wrong; mistaken. Name-calling is the hopeless tactic of a loser.

nobody's been vilified


Control your temper, du--

I stated a fact: Gays aren't even infertile. But they live in a perverted sexual arrangement. (Sodom & Gomorrah?) As for raising kids, I haven't commented on that.

If you feel that "because" some gays may be perfectly well-suited, what does that change about the end of their biological line? They withhold life from a potential offspring, to follow their passions. Pure selfishness.

"Heterosexuality and opposite sex marriage are no guarantee of success, so asserting that it is, is like trying to convince me the sky isn't blue."

That isn't our subject; though you keep harping on it. The subject is MARRIAGE. Gays are not truly married; that is my only contribution to this thread. Married means husband and wife.

I have to assume your mother, God bless her, conceived you by a MAN. Not another woman; who plain logic tells us couldn't have been father to YOU. Is this open to your comprehension, or too complicated for you? Your expertise and so on?


one's DNA isn't everything
dread, the family's history might have DNA or genes that aren't worth passing to another generation.
Adopting children who have no one or any home is a viable and preferred option to having one's genetic child.
ALL children need love, parenting and support. Gay adults can give that, and DO.
And the supply exceeds demand as far as homes for children is concerned.
So, the problem isn't reproduction, the problem is TOO MUCH reproduction and of children who are not wanted.
Abortion is a symptom of not being wanted.
So vilifying those who don't irresponsibly conceive is stupid.
And vilifying those who have infections or disease as ineligible to marry or help raise children is offensive.
It's bigoted and not especially a bigotry saved for gay people.
But for those who don't fit your ideal of who is qualified to be married or not, based on their human condition.

btw
A very close friend of mine wrote a a letter to the LA Times:
http://www.latimes.com

In response to an article on cross racial adoption. He's a white, gay man who adopted a newborn, black girl.
I know them. His daughter is now adolescent and I met them when she was four years old. She is a sensational child and is growing into quite a wonderful young woman.
Her father is a gifted man, and wholly devoted father.
The ability to nurture a child or be a good spouse is an INDIVIDUAL talent. It's not bestowed or denied individuals because of their GROUP.
And success depends on societal support too.
Heterosexuality and opposite sex marriage are no guarantee of success, so asserting that it is, is like trying to convince me the sky isn't blue.
And it's only that color part of the day.
Now, the world is a complex place. Too much for some people here to grasp. Only simple, crude and frankly dumb pronouncements are common here. To say nothing of limited experience trying to suffice as expertise. Truly, beyond idiocy.

crude reduction
Okay, dread...you take the cheap route that is typical of those not intelligent enough to follow the proper thought. You go into crude toilet or sex organ references as if that's all gay people are. Or men and women for that matter.
Your wife is twenty years younger than you are? Obviously age difference doesn't matter for the state except minimum.
But you're still extremely stupid about the difference between sterility and infertility and how a couple privately deals with either issue.
The state has no interest in discriminating on that basis and must be consistent with gay couples in that as well.
Those with disparate medical or physical issues might have sex organs that are incomplete or mixed or whatever.
And the state can't discriminate for that reason as well. It WOULD be cruel and inhumane and impractical to do so.
What KIND of sex organs and their use, even FAKE ones...are not YOUR concern. So not the state's either.
And a human being, and their love and companionate lives are more than their sex organs.
Dread, truly...you ARE stupid. Stupid and a BOOR.

I'll tell you what's sterile


The sterilest of all is what du insists is reason; since it bears no truth.

"So WHAT?
Gay AND straight people are sterile, have sterile sex or aren't interested in having a baby."

Wrong. Straight couples might be *infertile*. Gays are really sterile; since they insist on sex with the wrong organs. Physically, not all gays are infertile.

If a seed is planted in soil, it germinates. Planted in the toilet it goes to the sewer.

"And marriage is an option regardless of that condition." Sure; you also have the option of strangling your mother and father. Which happens, when you give up the manhood God alloted you in exchange for unhealthy sex with gay men.

You do it to your parents because you kill the DNA they passed on. No grandchildren, in principle. That's extinction. Also; you flirt with a shameful death by AIDS. But you'll call that "marriage."

Blah blah--etc,.

"Same for dread . . . the same way."

"I don't think either one of you is married, and it's not hard to see why." . . . .
Wrong again, du-- I am happily married. To a *white* woman 20 years younger than me; (Young is better, & there's nothing bad about black women--) and she's quite the love of my life. Eat your heart out, du.

"You don't have a clue who and why people marry."

OK-- I haven't a clue why two clones of the same sex organ excite one another. If a husband and wife excite one another; it's good. Then marriage makes sense. (Du calls this knowing nothing.)

. . . a gay couple who have been together ten years."
FINE. If they'll get their marriage OKed by the state, one of them gets made an honest woman at last? (That's the idea, isn't it?) Which one for honest woman?

Luis...SO WHAT?
So people have sterile sex without being sterile, Luis.
So what?

So what if not every act of sex is for the purpose of having a baby?
So WHAT?
Gay AND straight people are sterile, have sterile sex or aren't interested in having a baby.
And marriage is an option regardless of that condition.
Luis, you are incapable of having this discussion. You are behaving stupidly and making stupid statements. You are exercising your right to and go ahead. And I can also think you completely insane and not too bright.
Same for dread who argues the same way.
I don't think either one of you is married, and it's not hard to see why.
You don't have a clue who and why people marry.
I know a gay couple who have been together ten years. Years ago they changed careers and became registered nurses for one of the toughest and busiest hospitals in Los Angeles. They give aid and comfort to the sick.
What do YOU do with your lives that you're more deserving of being married and my friends aren't?
Yeah...exactly.
It doesn't seem to occur to you that there are gay people worth more than YOU are to society and it's security and health.

Paul Atwater
Defense of children, defense of marriage...
In what way does being heterosexual indicate any gift for the above?
Heterosexuality, like homosexuality do not indicate character or virtue. Simply being a man or a woman doesn't mean you're fit to raise a houseplant, let alone a child.
And marriage is not predicated on procreation. Couples can marry without the intent or ability for children. And gay parents are a reality, so their needs to marry are obvious.
As for you, dreadnaught, now denial is your tool of argument?

Again, you are trying to defend a legal situation that doesn't exist, or it would be in contradiction to equal standards.
You are the people who think yourselves qualified to vote on quality of life issues for gay citizens?!
An amendment is a VERY serious clause and it's abuse against gay citizens is another example of how far some people will go to force their will in a terrible direction.
Apparently, you don't take what marriage means seriously, what civil rights mean, nor what constitutions are for.
Wow...the very reason why the courts are so necessary.


The Truth - Discerning Good and Evil
Zig Zigler once told his audience that he could teach anyone to shoot a bow and arrow as well as William Tell. He invited one person to come up so he could demonstrate how he could do it.

When that person came up, they put a blindfold on him, and spun him around a few times. Then they handed him a crossbow, and instructed him to aim at the target.

He pulled of the blindfold off and said, "How do you expect me to hit a target I cannot see?"

Mr. Zigler responded, neither could William Tell. The point is how can we reach a goal you do not have? This point is clear, and I see in all of our threads and discussion, how intelligent people are writing what is on their mind, or just sounding off. However, who really wants to understand?

We all have our points of view, and for the most part, we are sincere. Sometimes, we are in error, or have learned something, which is not true. Some would call that person a liar.

A Lie is deliberately to say something that is an untrue representation, to give a false impression, in word, action, a partial truth, or inaction, which is to mislead.

If we cannot define a lie, how may we discern the truth, of what is good and what is evil?

(Old Testament | Proverbs 4:7)
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

“Who cares how much you know, if they don’t know how much you care?”

apologies to the masochistic homos
we apologize for not being here consitently enough whacking you masochistic homos around like you need and enjoy

we were busy getting ready for the California project

but we will be back from time to time to take care of your masochism by reminding you that you homosexuals are sterile, that your homosexuality is sterile, and that that says all that has to be said about the validity of homosexuality

Paul Atwater
Paul Atwater writes, "Turek's logic is unassailable and positive. It comes down to what we are truly FOR. And if we are for the one institution that protects children, then rational people cannot endorse same-sex marriage." Then we should only allow heterosexuals to marry for life.... no divorce.....What are we to do with children born out-of-wedLOCK?

Are you any relation to Lee Atwater?

Unassailable and postive
Turek's logic is unassailable and positive. It comes down to what we are truly FOR. And if we are for the one institution that protects children, then rational people cannot endorse same-sex marriage.

Snow White in the Seven Drawfs
It is all Disney's fault. Everything was fine until he came out with Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs among other cartoon shows.

du, counsel for the defense


Counselor for the right to marry in gay Nirvana; du process:

"Your opinons in opposition to marriage for GAY couples is an opinion, but the law in fact doesn't share it for heterosexuals with the SAME condition and status."

Objection, Your Honor; we didn't make a law against gay marriage. We merely pointed to a fact: gay marriage is a misnomer, since there IS none; in any natural or biological aspect. It's PRETENDING at marriage. Counsel for the defense of obstinacy and mental blocks has failed to show any evidence that Gays need marriage; since they marry their own clones.

Du: "Are we done now? Because these have been the opinions asserted over and over again, but it's not the LAW." ----->

Opinions count, if a false pretense is purported as truth. You've stated your biased opinion well. But it's not the TRUTH. Nat King Cole sang it, "And you'll have happiness without an end; If only you'll pretend."

.

.


BRING IT, dreadnaught and all
Okay-this whole discussion for the opposition has pretty much come down to non existent laws and lack of credibility for defending what isn't there and what won't happen.
For example : the polygamist and incestuous among us never had to wait for any ruling on gay people to make their stand.
They are a separate category of RELATIONSHIPS that aren't about WHAT they ARE, but their kinship status.

And I don't see the states persecuting any ministers or the religious for objecting to marriage equality in MA.

The states have no interest in prohibiting any citizen based on their intent or ability to HAVE children and they DON'T.

Physical compatibility is also not a standard to prohibit couples and the state doesn't on that basis.

And WHATEVER religious belief can or cannot accomodate any of those things, religion is a CHOSEN and fluid matter of personal freedom and can't be imposed on that of another citizen who DOESN'T choose it to follow.

Your opinons in opposition to marriage for GAY couples is an opinion, but the law in fact doesn't share it for heterosexuals with the SAME condition and status.
Are we done now? Because these have been the opinions asserted over and over again, but it's not the LAW.
So stop repeating what doesn't exist, it's tiresome and stupid.

swmps,
-


I think you mean to say PRETEND MARRIAGE.