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Wednesday, October 29, 2008
Douglas MacKinnon :: Townhall.com Columnist
Does the United States of America Still Exist?
by Douglas MacKinnon
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For the dwindling number of people in this country who actually believe in traditional values, it’s time to ask yourselves a question. That being, does the United States of America even exist anymore?

Our Founding Fathers envisioned a great deal when they crafted the documents that set forth the laws and boundaries that would help to govern our fledgling nation, but a mainstream media that would be almost one hundred percent controlled by the left was clearly something beyond their imagination. Should Barack Obama win this election, the socialist and draconian measures pushed by him, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden and Harry Reid, will surely threaten the integrity and intent of our founding documents.

One of the first steps the socialist-four will take will be to censor and ultimately silence Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Laura Ingraham and all of conservative radio. By reinstituting the un-American “Fairness doctrine,” they will seek -- much like the former Soviet Union, Hugo Chavez and the Obama supporting regime of Iran -- to use any means to crush dissent and the voice of citizens who disagree with and fear their far-left policies.

Thomas Jefferson was well aware of a biased press and yellow journalism when he said, “The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.” Two hundred and twenty-one years after he wrote those words, any reasoned and honest person would have to surmise that Jefferson would not only be horrified by the “fairness” doctrine, but chilled to the bone by a left-leaning media that willfully ignores the “opinion of the people.”

Does the United States of America even exist anymore? If it did, could a humble citizen like “Joe the Plumber” be so savaged by an Obama worshiping media simply because he dared to ask their candidate an honest and timely question about his plan to redistribute the wealth?

How much different is “Joe the Plumber” from the fictional character Jefferson Smith in Frank Capra’s classic movie, “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington?” In that 1939 film, citizen Smith comes to Washington and dares to ask an honest and timely question about an obviously corrupt business practice that involves a powerful congressional figure and his wealthy private sector enabler and puppet master.

Because of that transgression against the powerful congressional figure and his venal benefactor, Mr. Smith is immediately attacked, his background distorted, and his character assassinated. In the movie, the “Taylor Machine” uses all of its resources to smear Smith, have its own in-the-tank “journalists” manufacture and print lies about him, and have its bribed state officials look into Smith’s personal life and then prod their cronies to send out 5,000 telegrams denouncing an innocent man who presumed to ask a pertinent question.

Sound familiar? “Joe the Plumber” has been subjected to much of that and more. Wouldn’t such an attack only happen in a police state and not in the United States of America? Wouldn’t it?

If the United States of America truly existed anymore, wouldn’t one of the tens of conservative billionaires in this nation -- or a group of the hundreds of conservative multimillionaires -- buy one of these far-left media outlets and try to instill some balance in its management and editorial content? Time and again I’ve posed this question and time and again I’ve been told it’s a bad business investment.

Really? Well, to that I say if you fire all of the far-left management, editors and reporters, you would not only restore the dignity of the outlet, but cut well over ninety percent of the employees. With that massive monetary savings, you could then hire a much smaller percentage of ethical journalists and rebuild your readers and advertising base.

Should that not make sense to these wealthy conservatives, then I would ask them how their financial bottom-line is functioning under this liberal media pushed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac economic meltdown? Beyond that, how well will that bottom-line prosper under the Obama-Pelosi-Reid mainstream media supported redistribution of wealth? At what point do these wealthy conservatives step forward?

At the end of the 18th century, historian Thomas Carlyle quoted Edmund Burke as saying, "there were Three Estates in Parliament; but in the Reporter' Gallery yonder, there sat a Fourth Estate more important than they all. It is not a figure of speech, or a witty saying; it is a literal fact ... Whoever can speak, speaking now to the whole nation, becomes a power, a branch of government, with inalienable weight in lawmaking, in all acts of authority."

If the United States of America existed anymore, could this “Fourth Estate” control almost the top one-hundred newspapers in our nation, the major networks, most of the cable networks -- including the Weather Channel, CNBC, and ESPN -- and the entertainment industry? If the nation of our Founding Fathers existed, could this “Fourth Estate” handpick and install an untested, inexperienced candidate who wishes to redistribute our wealth and worse?

There is no greater threat to our liberty and this Republic than a biased media that despises traditional values and only speaks and lies with one voice. Again, Thomas Jefferson may have said it best when he wrote, “He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world’s believing him. This falsehood of the tongue leads to that of the heart, and in time depraves all its good dispositions.”

If the United States of America still existed, could these lies of the left and the destruction they cause, happen with such regularity?

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About The Author

Douglas MacKinnon is a former White House and Pentagon official and author of the forthcoming novel, The Apocalypse Directive.

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Obama Chaos
Edwin Vieira asks "Why doesn't Obama prove, with conclusive
documentary evidence, that he is 'a natural born Citizen' of the
United States who has not renounced his American citizenship?" Because
of his failure, America is potentially facing the gravest
constitutional crisis in her history. "The potential for chaos, both
domestically and internationally, arising out of this systemic
uncertainly is breathtaking." http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin84.htm
It is crucial that people vote against Obama unless he produces proof
that he is eligible to be president. Dr. Vieira says "If Obama turns
out to be nothing more than an usurper who has fraudulently seized
control of the Presidency, not only will the Constitution have been
egregiously flouted, but also this whole country could be, likely will
be, destroyed as a consequence."

Farewell, MikeR
You're right, MikeR,

Joe Wurzelbacher (the Plumber) is not imprisoned for asking Obama questions; he is only "scorched."

And of course, the Fairness Doctrine is created by rabid Right-wingers...

And the financial system is not nationalized 100%.
And Obama condemns "spreading the wealth around".
And 10 Commandments in Public buildings and Christmass trees and signs in Home Depot are banned by the same rabid Right-wingers...

Keep chattering, MikeR, I adore your jabber...

Douglas MacKinnon is Jerk
Please go out and Expirence the Real America

Constantine Ivanov
All you are doing is back pedaling. You are the one who upon escaping the USSR and arriving in the US became disillusioned in less than a year. I can’t imagine what disillusioned you so quickly. You tell me, why would someone who came from such a repressive, dangerous and totalitarian regime become disillusioned that quickly in the most free, abundant and successful country on earth?

Perhaps it’s best if you don’t respond to me anymore. You are apparently unable or unwilling to take responsibility for your initial comments. Otherwise, you’re in a safe heaven here. All you have to do to get along with the herd is say how bad America is (a sin for liberals), oppose the electoral process (something that the bad liberals do) or engage in put-downs, personal insults and innuendo (another thing that is only bad when done by liberals).

To all reading my posts
I beg your pardon for many typos.
They are caused not by lack of language knowledge but by problems I have moving my fingers on my keyboard.

Call to Arms
If more people would just wake up and look at the facts instead of trying to find ways to rationalize thier party line-more people would be fed up with the 80% of politicians (from both parties) who are corrupt by-products of, or leftovers from, the radical sickafantic 1960's.

These Communists don't realize one very important fact that will ultimately stop them.

It is GOD fearing conservatives (the real conservatives) you know who we are. Many of us are the sons of our founders. We're the bad aus son's of guns who will fight and die for what we believe in, protect the constitution, and never live in persecution.

Can you Marxists understand that? I hope so because it's comin baby and your gonna be on the receiving side!!

To Take Back America in Ga...

We need a REAL conservative radio station, TV station, and newspaper.

The American people don't know what's going on, because the government won't allow the media, that they run, to inform the people. It's all about your tax dollars my friend, and every penny they can squeeze out of us.

If this Anti-American, Islamic African, terrorist loving imposter is actually elected, the Viet Nam War riots will look like a day at Disney World. And how can anyone be President, when he/she can't, no... WON'T produce a valid birth certificate, proving they were born in this country?

Barack HUSSEIN Osama Obama was born in Kenya, raised in Indonesia, and was "educated" (brainwashed) in Muslim schools. He is no more American than Fidel Castro.

And if he grew up so poor, how did he get into Harvard? Apparently his birth mother was "White trash" (Obama's own feelings about her), his father was a drugging drunk and a Muslim radical, and the product of THIS is running for the Presidency of this United States?! And quite a few IDIOT White people are buying into this crap! These people I call losers, for lack of a more fitting description.

In short... this election is a farce, and the bleeding-heart liberals are going to have their way with us on the RIGHT (also meaning "correct") side of the fence, if John McCain and Sarah Palin don't win this election.

When they start forming the malitia to turn this place back into AMERICA, please let me know where to sign up!

"America"
If more people would just wake up and look at the facts instead of trying to find ways to rationalize thier party line-more people would be fed up with the 80% of politicians (from both parties) who are corrupt by-products of, or leftovers from, the radical sickafantic 1960's.

These Communists don't realize one very important fact that will ultimately stop them.

It is GOD fearing conservatives (the real conservatives) you know who we are. Many of us are the sons of our founders. We're the bad aus son's of guns who will fight and die for what we believe in, protect the constitution, and never live in persecution.

Can you Marxists understand that? I hope so because it's comin baby and your gonna be on the receiving side!!

To MikeR
You wrote:
"The differences are that of a lake to an ocean."

I like your phrase. It is applicable to "you claimed to have lived in the USSR" (=lake on your side) and "you've lived in the USSR" (=ocean on my side.)

In other words, you manage to keep the 'lake-ocean' difference between what I said and your intepretation of my words.

Therefore, I suggest you to read ,y pposts once again or just relax and have a beer without makng me bored to death...


I did say that we don't have estableshed Socialism yet; we don't have political prisons...yet.

As for "the elimination of opposition, the completely controlled press," only an intentionally blind individual can't see abvious signs of that.
For specifically educated people like yourself: not 100% eliminated...yet.

Good night. I won't answer you anymore. Too boring.


Standshisground...I teach BOTH
To my kids :)

Ron
As does "Live Free Or Die"!

freefire..Nice handle :) but..let NOT...
your heart be troubled. Don't tread on me STILL resounds across America...STILL..(I hope) :)

Anyone want to buy an American flag???
Once the Obamanation wins this sham of an election, I need to sell off my American flags. While Michelle may be proud of her country now, I am ashamed of mine. I am replacing Old Glory with a "Don't tread on me" flag, as the stars and stripes doesn't seem to symbolize freedom anymore. Maybe I'll just spray paint a hammer and sickle on it and fly it upside down................

The Dearth of Conservative Airways
is the Dearth of Truth and the Dearth of a Nation. Talk Radio is no longer CONSERVATIVE; it has abandoned TRUE CONSERVATISM as witnessed by its shameless pull for McShamnesty now. Talk Radio walked out on Conservative principles when it refused to oppose candidates like McShamnesty and his legions of fellow GOP Corporate Whores & Socialists who supported Illegal Immigration and the endless Socialist bailouts - the same candidates who are actively seeking re-election now and still have the unmitigated gall to actually call themselves "Conservatives". When Talk Radio was Conservative, it led to tremendous results. The two houses of Congress went to the GOP in 1994 precisely because Limbaugh had a radio and a tv show that showed America just what the DEMS were all about and what they were doing behind our backs. Third Parties such as the CP and LP, which are the only parties espousing true Conservatism these days, need to step up to the plate and get their message out. That's the real lesson we should all be learning from what BOTH Socialist parties in DC have been doing and from what all the NYC media and Talk Radio have not been doing. "My people hurt for lack of knowledge." - GOD A democracy cannot survive without an educated electorate.

Both parties in DC are intimately involved financially with the MSM; it's a happy symbiotic relationship to the tune of billions of advertising dollars. When 3rd Parties can get financial backing for massive advertising campaigns or start their own media or tv and radio shows, Political Revolution can begin to clean up the Socialist Political Pollution in DC, the District of Corporate Whores.

If we can never accomplish this, in the end it will be in our best interest and necessary for our own survival to actively seek Secession from the so-called "United" States.

7 Years After 911
we have a presidential candidate in the Party of Treason, who is endorsed OPENLY by Hamas and the leader of the Iranian Parliament. Need I say more! If this isn't an indictment of our political process, I don't know what is!
If this were a functional country with a functional legal system and a functional government that actually followed the dictates of ITS OWN CONSTITUTION, the fact of the matter is that almost ALL of the Democratic Party and the MSM and the New York Times editorial staff would be prosecuted and jailed for TREASON and Sedition.

To believe that you can maintain TRUTH in a media situated primarily in the heart of a city such as NYC that is consistently 80% lunatic Liberal is mindless insanity. Secession is the only viable alternative if no TRUE CONSERVATIVES step up to the plate to present TRUE CONSERVATISM to the masses. If the American People knew even a tenth of what is going on in DC, the District of Criminals, in BOTH Socialist parties, they would be storming DC en masse just as they flipped the DEMS in 1994. The critical link to bringing about TRUE CONSERVATISM is a competitive media that competes for the TRUTH - not for glitz and glamour and "BALANCE". There is no such thing as "balance" when one party is completely anti-American and resorts to pathological lies and spin to promote anything but capitalism.


Chuck
Ok, the sky is falling, there are commies hiding under your bed and the end of the world is coming soon. Feel better now? If you don’t have any faith in God or your country and fellow man, try simply growing a pair.

Constantine Ivanov
NO, Obama is not president yet if he ever will, which I doubt. But you claimed to have lived in the USSR then escaped to eventually arrive in America. Upon arrival, you said that “It was not one year after I came to the country that my illusions about the Capitalist America as opposed to the Communist USSR started dispersing.”
Well sir, to become disillusioned so quickly, I ask, where the gulags, are the elimination of opposition, the completely controlled press. It’s not enough that you are telling a story I first heard 50 years ago. You are claiming that the similarities between the former USSR and the US are so great as to cause you disillusionment after escaping the former and arriving in the latter? The differences are that of a lake to an ocean.
Sorry to break your heart, but the US has been a social-democratic, republic ever since the Bacon Rebellion that happened during the early phase of colonization. It even included the idea of “leveling” society. In the 230 some years since then, we as a people have struggled and reached a balance between socialism and democracy. Now, you want to come by and tell us that the sky is falling and that commies are hiding under our beds, try picking a slightly more original story. But first, you’ll have to get in line behind the people that are claiming Obama is the anti-Christ.

Obama: Marxist,Commie, Shapeshifter
*
IT MATTERS:
OBAMA'S associations with America Haters, Hateful Biggots, Communists, Muslim Terrorists, Crooks and Criminals; It all matters, IT ALL MATTERS!
Day by Day, more and more, the tide is turning.

Too Bad for HILLARY and McCain and Americans it took this long to finally figure out A SHAM ELECTION.

AND THE MEDIA AND ITS,
"FLYING MONKEES", WILL PAY

YOU CAN COUNT IT...... *


*

To 820316 from TN
Me.
See my post at 2:18PM:
"Liberadical President with his 'wealth redistribution' job-killing and welfare promoting Marxist ideology, Liberadical Vice-President with his 'patriotism of raising taxes', Liberadical Congress with their crazy spending agenda, Liberadical Supreme Court with its indifference to voter registration fraud, Liberadical Media with their rabid lechery promotion = One-Party System = DEATH TO DEMOCRACY."

Unfortunately, it's too late for any hope now.
It makes sense to hope for a future People movement to change this situation.
If and when we'll start learning from history...of our own mistakes.

MikeR
Oh, gee, thanks for telling us,"It can't happen here".

I feel much better now. Thanks.

Who will stand on my side???
Democratic President + Democratic Senate + Democratic House of Representatives + Democratic Media = ???

Is there any hope?
http://rightklik.blogspot.com/

To jim
Firstly, thank you very much for the story.
It may be "nothing exciting" for you but not for me:
I have great respect for all people who fought against Communism in any possible way.

Thus, you and Sen. McCarthy are in my soul.

In 1956, we, then Soviet citizens, have experienced - the first time in our lives - a Communists acknowledgement of their own attrocities.
We then thought the new era comes: Communism is getting to acquire "a human face."

This turned to be another huge delusion: prisons, camps, and mad houses kept being full of dissidents more 35 years.

So, you maybe understand what feeling I have when I meet anythng similar to Communism here, which many people simply don't want to acknowledge.

Of course, I am not talking about political prisons, we don't have them...yet.

But if and when - on the base of the Fairness Doctrine, which is just awating Obama's throning to be accepted and activated by unholy trinity Obama-Pelosi-Reid and their pals Pelosipithecines - Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Glenn Beck and the likes will disappear from the public sight, how much different will it be from the Soviets?

Standshisground...
I know... I've been cautioned by my Webmaster about how the gov has (spineless) people that do nothing but scan conservative "blogs" and other means of communication.

All I can say is, why do we NOT exercise our "RIGHT", by the 2nd ammendment, to form a malitia to do something about this runaway "government"? We conservatives have as much right to this land as the bleeding-heart left, but seem to dwindling in numbers. That scares the s--- out of me! If we don't stand up for our "RIGHTS" soon, communism wins!

Nothing exciting, but

Constantine Ivanov Location: NY
Reply # 219
Date: Oct 29, 2008 - 6:08 PM EST
My hat off to you!
Particularly, if you succeeded...
=============
jim Location: CA
Reply # 211
Date: Oct 29, 2008 - 5:12 PM EST
==========
Nothing exciting, but here is the rest of the story.
-------

At Fort Monmouth, NJ, my Major told me to report to a certain building at a certain time. He very gruffly told me to tell him what it was all about, when I returned.

Several high-ranking officers said that we were to keep an eye out for spies, were given a secret PO Box to mail a weekly report, and were forbidden to tell anyone that this meeting even took place. My Major had said I must tell him about the meeting, so they gave me a telephone number to memorize, for him to call.

The Major had the “screaming mimis” when I wouldn’t tell what happened, so I told him the number. He dialed and firmly demanded they tell him what was going on. His face turned to stone, he came to attention in his chair, and said, “Yes sir! Yes sir!” and hung up. He had no more questions, that was the end of his involvement.

Sounds like an exciting story, but all my weekly reports mailed to the secret FBI PO Box number in a phony town name, said, “Nothing to Report.” In 1953, after I had left the Army, Senator Joe McCarthy focused his Anti-Communist hearings on past spy rings at Ft. Monmouth, NJ.

Trivia: I was in the gallery of the U. S. Senate, when Senator Joe McCarthy gave his last speech in 1957, he died a few days later.


David from AZ
Unfortunately, the government can find you now by going to the ISP's. From what I've apparently been apprised of in the last several days, Google, it seems, has helped the Red Chinese government identify dissidents who post on web sites, so the ISP's are apparently willing to help governments strip away the anonymity of the Internet.

The one consolation you have is that if under a Democratic dictatorship sometime in the future, whether led by Obama or someone else, if they send you or me and/or the rest of us fellow conservatives to the camps of the American Gulag Archipelago they'd like to create, a lot of the very same liberals who helped bring about that state of affairs will be keeping us company in those camps - and not as guards or jailers, either. The history of the political left for the last 100 years is that lefties have no loyalty even to their own: to them, people, even those they claim to care about most, are merely props, and quite expendable ones at that, to power or gratification of some other whim. So a lot of the very same leftists who would like to make America a hell for conservatives will be among the first to experience the full monty of that hell for themselves.

AfriMexiStan...!!!
The question at hand: "Is this still the United States of America"?

The simple answer: "NO"!!

The name of this place might as well be AfriMexiStan!

Take a look... watch ten minutes of television. Watch ONE minute of National News!!

Go try to get a loan, for anything, if you are White... it ain't happenin'!

Listen to what black people (Africans, Mexicans or Arabs) say about White people... in public, or in the Bleeding-Heart Liberal media. Let a White man/woman say the same thing about one of THEM... you are labeled a racist, and/or arrested for a "hate crime". Effigies of John McCain and Sarah Palin are being publically displayed hanging from nooses... while if I hang Barack HUSSEIN Osama Obama in effigy, with a noose. it's off to jail I go... for a HATE CRIME!!!!

They want hate... here ya go Barack HUSSEIN Osama Obama... F--- YOU!!

Anyone who votes for this maggot should be... OOPS, I almost stated my inner thinking, the TRUTH. I'd better keep it there, lest I be locked up with the very same trash I abhor!

R.I.P. AMERICA! It's been nice knowing you.

United States Of America
If The left has control of the country,we will no longer be the United States Of America.
We will soon be the United Socialst States Of America.


Facts
"The fact you acknowledged that you don't see any similarity between the former USSR and the nowadays USA..."

Would show you are not mindless. Sorry, the USA today has no similarity at all between those two regimes outside the most basic elements that most advanced states have--all have taxes, all have an army, all have organizations known as political parties, etc.


To Donald
you wrote:
"I'll be happy when Obama dies."

When we see Sarah Palin and McCain effigies in noose or flame, we (at least, I) naturally call the authors 'rabid scumbags.'

Why you want to show yourself on the same level?

To MikeR, #2
Continuation...

I did not and do not say that Socialism - as it is determined by Marx-Lenin - is established in the USA.

I just did and do say that we have now made tremendous steps toward it.

Besides what I already said about the ideological sphere, the nationalization of the Financial system recently accepted by both parties is just one of the very gloomy signs of the Socialism that is not creeping anymore but rather bursting our doors in.

Will we face nationalization of all means of production?

I forgot to mention: last year the Obama's definition of "the rich" was $1MLN. This year, in April, it became $250,000. Recently, Biden informed us that it is now $150,000.
Why am I telling this?
My explanation specifically for you, MikeR (since you seem to have problems getting the logic chain): Obama didn't hesitate to tell Americans that he is going to tax "small percentage of the rich" to make happier the huge percentage of the poor, which is simply reiterating of the very little modified Marx-Lenin idea of "redistribution the wealth around since it;s good for everybody."
By lowering the threshold of "the richness" rapidly - within one year - from 1 MLN to $150,000, Obama just proves that all Marxist-Leninist adherence to making the poor richer at the account of making the rich poorer was, is, and always will be false, dishonest, immoral, and never realizable.

Liberadicals will never make anybody happier because it means to eradicate their electorate.
Only a mess of pottage, for an illusion of happiness.

To MikeR, #1
Dear Mike,
you wrote:
"What has WWII to do with my point?"
This shows that you are even unable to get the logic of a discussion.

Well, I'm stretching my friendly hand to you:
Your point is to convince all readers here that I am delusional with regard to the state the USA is in now, and therefore I am an idiot.
Thank you, but it's very much disputable (not for you, of course, since it involves certain skills you seem to be in lack of.)

My point was and still is that penetration of rabid Leftism into American life began long time before Americans started realizing this indisputable fact.
I've further shown in a very sketchy way - mostly for literate and well educated people, not for you, don't worry - when and how that penetration was initiated.

The fact you acknowledged that you don't see any similarity between the former USSR and the nowadays USA says only that you - intentionally or unintentionally - do not realize what features of Communism/Nazism ideology are saturating today the country.

To be continued...

I'll be happy when
Obama dies. The US would be much better off without him.

Tired of Obama
I am so fed up with Obama that I cannot even stand listening to that jerk. How can anyone even stand the jerk anymore? I have to admit I would love to see someone punch that jerk out.

Libs get lost
What is with you worthless libs when you can't even stay in the pig styes you create at kos and huff. Can't you even stand your own pigs? I would never waste my time in the Daily Kook site, it is full of pigs.

Libs are worried that someone may actually enjoy their life so they have to drag the country down to the lowest level like Zimbabwe.

We want choice
The libs keep whining that they want to choose abortion. What we need is a choice to pull out of the hell hole that the libs are creating with Obama and all of his nutcase associates.

Obama is what is wrong with this country, there is nothing worthy about him. Obama is a pure nutcase. Give the states a choice of pulling out of this country so we all don't have to suffer under Obama and his thugs.

Sun The 1. Troll Invasion.

Yep. They're like a "Series of (bad) Dreams".




Jayhawk
I'm with Patton on this one Jayhawk. Our country isn't as free as it used to be, and in some respects I don't even recognize the place it has become.

B. Hussein Obama bring the USA back to greatness? Forgive me for laughing til I puke. You mean the Obama that the Communist Party USA is in love with? The one the terrorists like? The one that has been pals with communist mentors, racist hate preachers, and domestic terrorists? You are talking about the Marxist Barack Hussein Obama?

I'm sorry you are such an idiot Jayhawk, I seriously cannot see how you can be so blind to the truth.

To jim, CA
you wrote:
"In 1951, I was a secret spy for the FBI, looking for members of the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg spy ring at Ft. Monmouth, NJ."


My hat off to you!
Particularly, if you succeeded...

TC
Re: troll invasion.
There seem to be a new crop every day. Not sure if they take shifts and turns, or if they just change their names. Like a bunch of avatars. Astroturfing I guess.

Wonder where they'll be Nov 5.
Either here gloating or gone...

jayhawk
writes"Obama wants to bring the USA back to greatness"

What does that mean exactly? No, i really want to know. What will tell you that America has been "restored" to greatness?

baseballdoc
"BTW ...McCain supported amnesty but he is not polling well with Hispanics ...how come?", you asked.

This is EXACTLY what Pat Buchanan (and others, like Samuel Francis) has been trying to tell the Republican Party for YEARS, that amnesty is a LOSER for the GOP because the Hispanic vote has always been - and all indicators say it will likely always BE - heavily slanted in favor of the Democratic Party, so the GOP is deluding itself to believe that supporting amnesty will ingratiate it with newly naturalized Hispanic voters, and dangerously as well. They will STILL vote for the party that promises them the most goodies - and no party right now even comes CLOSE to out-doing the Democrats in THAT regard.

The Republican Party hasn't earned what in many regards is the well-deserved moniker of the Stupid Party for nothing.

baseballdoc
just read your 4:37pm post.
You and I appear to agree mostly.
I wanted a path (not amnesty). But a path.
Many who uproared (many posting here) wanted them punished.
We'll get amnesty. We could have had a path. A bit of discussion and compromise on the bill they had and it sould hve been far superior to what we will have next year.

baseballdoc
Yes, I do remember those parades, and they made me mad. However, I am also well aware that most hispanics, (and even most illegals) are not of that ilk.

McCain is not polling well with hispanics because of the backlash unleashed against hispanics by said "real conservatives". The amnestiacs. All republicans got the blame. Talk about backlash.

Same reason his polls suffer when the economy went south. People blame the party of the guy in the shite house (not smart enough to blame congress).

Jayhawk in Aotearoa
Ahh, shut the hell up already. People are damn sick and tired of your liberal bullsh*t. Stop making excuses for the communist Barack Hussein Osama. It's not Townhall who is attacking you anti-Americans...IT's ME and MY FELLOW AMERICANS WHO LOVE OUR COUNTRY. You ready for war?

SunThe1,baseball, Stand.

How 'bout this liberal invasion of Townhall?

They're on the screen like ants!

My favorite is "mrbmrbbrmbrrbmm plus tax"! Don't know why but he reminds me of Dracula.

On a much more uplifting note, I keep thinking of today's Medved column.

I hope and pray he's right!

So I brag a little


Constantine Ivanov Location: NY
Reply # 179
Date: Oct 29, 2008 - 2:13 PM EST

two Soviet scumbags Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,
===========

Far be it from me miss a chance to brag at every opportunity:

In 1951, I was a secret spy for the FBI, looking for members of the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg spy ring at Ft. Monmouth, NJ.



No sir...
It's now the United States of Imperial Takeovers.
The Presidential Signing Statement States.
Halliburton of America.


Obama wants to bring the USA back to greatness, yet TH stands stubbornly, indignantly, braying from the right with attack after attack.

Looking for an article with positives about McCain here at Town Hall ??? Few and far between. Attack pieces and guilt by association about Obama? YES, we have those!!!

traditional values
"Now a man who commits adultery with another man's wife is one who commits adultray with the wife of his fellow man. He should be put to death without fail, the adulterer and the adultress as well."

Leviticus 19:10

Let's get back to the Bible!

SUNTHE1

.....Do you remember the La Raza parades in CA where they were carrying flags of Mexico and chanting "this is our land" ...

.....This was not good PR for "a long orderly path to citizenship" ...it seemed more like an invasion and takeover by illegal aliens ...

.....This created a strong anti-immigration backlash that still lingers today ...maybe if GW was a better communicator or a stronger leader this situation could have been avoided ...

...BTW ...McCain supported amnesty but he is not polling well with Hispanics ...how come? .....COLOSSUS

WAS I ONE OF THOSE GUYS?

.....SUNTHE1 ...

.....I knew what GW was trying to do because he had a lot of Mexican support in Texas ...but I did not think his amnesty plan would work on a National Scale ...

.....That was one of GW's problems ...he tried to run the country like he ran Texas where most Democrats are more Conservative than most Blue State Republicans, and he never figured out that it would not work ...

.....I was in favor of National Id Cards that could be swiped like credit cards and would identify your legal status, (this would also solve voter fraud BTW), I wanted all illegals to be classified as "guest workers" who could then go through a process to become citizens ...

.....I am in favor of immigration as long as it is legal ...what I am against is blanket amnesty that says "well since you're already here just take the oath and bingo you're a citizen ...this is what we'll get with Obama .....COLOSSUS


Amnesty?
You don't give amnesty to millions of people just to get votes. That's what the left does. We stood for law and order and to grant these people a pass would only propel another 20 million or so to come on in and help themselves. Plus the fact, the second they are made legal, they become eligible for all govt. benefits. How many billions more would that cost? Allowing mostly uneducated illegals into the system just adds another burden.

The left simply wants the votes of the illegals. At least there are some of us conservatives that still believe in integrity and the rule of law.

baseballdoc writes
"One of Obama's first acts will be to grant amnesty for 12 million illegals ...this will put millions of new Democrats on the rolls ...enough to give Democrats super majorities in both Houses ...the Republican Party will never see the light of day again ..."

Hmm. Not sure where you stood when all that was hotly debated last year. Weren't you one of those screaming about "amnesty"?
I reckon next year's bill is going to make last year's bill look like torture, which is pretty much what some "real conservatives" wanted for illegals.

These folks could have been on an orderly (and long) path to citizenship, and eventually vote conservative. And their legal relatives would be voting against Obama right now. INstead the "real conservatives" spewed hate at them, and the dems welcomed them all with open arms. Brilliant strategists that they are, they're voting 3rd party now, hoping for some revolution.

So were you one of those guys?

Whatever you say, Red Castle,
whatever you say...

The fact being this:
Army Group C, the Axis forces in Italy retreated on all fronts and surrendered at the End of April, 1945. General Heinrich von Vietinghoff, who took command of Army Group C after Kesselring had been transferred to become Commander in Chief of the Western Front (OB West) at the end of 1944, signed the instrument of surrender on behalf of the German armies in Italy on April 29 formally bringing hostilities to an end on May 2, 1945.

Yes, you're right: "by the war's end there Allies were still fighting there. It was no soft underbelly."

But if only Roosevelt listened to Churchill and his generals (except Eisenhower), not to his Assistant-Soviet spy Alger Hiss and his distant "boss" Stalin. the situation cluld be completely different.

You must produce a very heavy evidence proving that I am wrong.

I've read the 2-volume "Correspondence between Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill."
Did you?


Got Communism?
Every since World War II, the communists knew all they had to do was infiltrate the American justice system, educational system, and media...and they have done it. This election proves it. Decades of government education has almost destroyed our country. These young people are senseless. These Obama supporters(Communists) are cheering for their own deaths. A nation of creatures this stupid doesn't deserve to have their lives preserved. Good luck and God bless us all, folks. For all of you not dumbed-down by the government education system, Do the right thing on November 4th, and VOTE FOR JOHN McCAIN AND SARAH PALIN. Lord help us all.

Constantine Ivanov
What has WWII to do with my point?

You wrote, “was full up (or fed up, if you will) with the Communists in the former USSR where I spent almost 50 years of my life…………. It was not one year after I came to the country that my illusions about the Capitalist America as opposed to the Communist USSR started dispersing.”

My response was to point out the most blatant, diametric differences between the US and the USSR. Your disillusionment over the US not being Utopia is a personal problem; but you can in no way say that the two countries are so similar that you quickly became disillusioned over the lack of difference between the two.

As for the WWII lesson, it was so off that it only reinforces my belief in your limited powers of observation and reasoning. Akagi is an apt student of history and I could not d a better job of pointing out your errors using “Just facts, MikeR, just facts”.

United States?
What is really scary is possibly 1/2 of the population belive this left leaning insannity!

Our prayer for this country should not be God Bless the United States but God SAVE the United States. We are at the point where scripture warns us, "Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil". When you look at every aspect of our society that pretty much sums it up, we need divine intervention.

stand
If the effigy were of obama, it would be a HATE crime, and prosecuted.
And I'm sure that many liberal posters will be denouncing the effigy of Gov Palin. They just haven't shown up yet....

SunThe1
Yeah, TC's 2:12 post WAS pretty amusing!

Italy
Ivanov

It was called the soft under belly and it was hardly that. People that fought there called it "the old tough gut." The Allies had a terrible time advancing in Italy. The invasion of the Balkans only make sense of you wanted Germany to not lose the war. France was the correct move. And despite your claims, Stalin was not eager for the Allies to delay the invasion of Europe. The Allies landed in France on June 6, 11 months later the war was over. The Allies landed in Italy in September 1943 by the war's end there Allies were still fighting there. It was no soft underbelly.

the gap is closing
More good news this morning. The Gallup tracking poll today has McCain within just 2 points of Barack Obama.

This race is incredibly close, despite what the media says. Obama simply cannot close the deal. He has a hard time breaking past 48 or 49% of the vote.

The American people have grave reservations about this man becoming president.

The National Republican Trust PAC will drive home this weekend a simple message: Obama cannot be trusted to become our president.

Their new ad reminds voters about Obama's long friendship with the Rev. Wright. It is now airing in key swing states.

This ad was airing in battleground states and it to begin running the ad nationally on the major TV networks.

http://www.goptrust.com


Cotton Fields
I know that many Whites are going to vote for the Kenyan Kommie Kandidate [KKK] out of the "Great White Guilt". When questioned, they declare that when Obama gets in the White House, the Blacks will be Happy, and quit blaming the White Race for all their problems.[I wonder how they blame the wholesale slaughter of warring Tribal/Religious factions in their Home, Mother Africa, on the Whites, after Killing/Driving them from the Continent???] The American Black Population will not be satisfied , with the Status Quo, 'til the Whites are Pickin' The Cotton/Beans/Oranges!! I don't believe they will be happy, even then. Oh, btw, we won't have an Illegal Immigrant Problem any more, the Socialist-Islamic-Black Supremacist Gov't that is Coming, will not Tolerate Illegals, unless they're from Somolia/Kenya/Congo/Darfur etc.

TC
Your )2:12pm) post- 5 stars!
Thanks for the laugh
Next: script obama's first meeting with vlad or mahmoud...

To MikeR
Hi Mike,
I read your post, which finally enriched my vocabulary.
First of all, I found a typo that you didn't fixed: it should be 'Clintoniana.' Sorry for the typo.
Secondly, your text explains clearly what the American expression "blah-blah-blah" (or "yada-yada") means: when one (just like you) is unable to bring at least one fact as an argument in a discussion with a rival.
It's a pretty well known school, which, for instance, Biden is a perfect apprentice of.

Keep talking while I'll keep gathering facts.

Oh, btw, do you know where Italy is located?
Churchill called it "a soft underbelly of Europe".
Brits and American landed in Sicilia in March 1943. Badoglio seized Italy from the war in September 1943.
There was a short way from the South of Italy ( where American and English allies landed in September 1943) to Jugoslavia that was in fire of rebellion against Nazis; where was wery short way from to occupy or bomb Rumania to cut off the Nazis oil supply, and so forth).
Rossevelt procrastinated the combat for demoralized Rome.

Churchell quarreled with Roosevelt trying to push him for opening the Second Front. Rossevelt lingered out the D-Day until June 6, 1944.

Why?
Because FDR was in agreement with Stalin to enable Stalin's plan of "Ten Blows" in order to occupy half of Europe and make them Commy countries.

Who succeeded? Roosevelt/
Who failed preventing Staling for Communistization of Euro9pe? Churchill.
Why?
Because Roosevelt wanted Stalin to succeed despite all generals - except Eisenhower - insisted on the earlier offence.

Just facts, MikeR, just facts.
Keep talking.

Pearl
If this is true, I'd advise you to leave the US as soon as possible after Obama is elected.

If I were you, I'd pick Australia, has one of the most free economies. And one of the world's strongest--16 years of economic expansion. Tied to China's might slow as China's economy slows, but been doing better than the US economy last few years.

They did elect a leftist PM who is a Sinophile and you might have to get used to the parliamentary system. Might be a tad boring too as one of the most popular shows there is The Wiggles.

Also has some pretty nasty spiders and snakes and crocs up north, but by in large a nice place and no doubt much better than the US will be--it is going to become Cuba Grande as soon as El Presidente Obama is elected. Right?

Good day, mate.




Redlac
While I support the right of secession, you should see note my posts that there is no strong support for it in any state--even Hawai'i. Or for that matter even in the territories like Guam and Puerto Rico.

People who say the divide between Red and Blue is as deep as between slave and free are well idiots. This is nothing like 1860. And there have been greater divides since--1968 for example.

Even if Obama wins (which I think he will), it won't get close to 1860 or 1968. No secession.

But I support the right if at some point there were a desire for a state to leave. This is just the typical crowing of the losing side. In 2000 and 2004 people in New England (especially Vermont) were talking about secession too (they also made threats to leave the Union in the 1850s over slavery too--the US should have let them--that region has cause more trouble..but I digress).

Despite what people claim here, there will be no secession crisis. Despite what some claim here, secession was on the minds of the South for decades before the crisis exploded. Georgia made threats to leave over Indian removal in the 1830s and South Carolina did so as well over the Tariffs of Abomination. The crisis was large Jackson sent a warship to Charleston Harbor to basically threaten SC with military action (such a nice, kind federal government the US has had over the years).

Thank you for your article
So many things about Obama should scare all Americans. Under Obama, citizens will live like Venezuela and Cuba. No more talk shows on the radio, only newspapers that praise Obama. No free speech - like Joe, the plumber, if you speak out, you will be investigated by his "private army" which was trained using the "Alinsky" rules.

Free health care, with long lines and only the "Chosen Few" deserve the best care. No jobs available for the average person - I see long, long bread lines.

End of the country as we know it today!!

HOW COULD ANYONE SUPPORT THIS MAN!!!

jim
A LOT of conservatives, not just you and me, share the same fear about Obama as president and the future of free expression in this country if he IS our next president and have been saying the same things as you and I for months. Pat Buchanan said on his thread yesterday that he expects one of the things that will characterize the first 100 days of an Obama Administration is a resurrection of the Fairness Doctrine.

By the way, here's another interesting question for liberals. Let's suppose that guy in West Hollywood with the effigy of Sarah Palin hanging in a noose from his roof has a next-door neighbor who is a staunch supporter of McCain and put up a "Halloween display" featuring an effigy of BARACK OBAMA hanging in a noose from his rooftop. Leaving aside the issue that this guy would probably be subjected to vandalism directed against his personal property and very possibly even physical violence directed against his person, would the liberals who defend the Sarah Palin display on the grounds of free expression regardless of its offensiveness just as vigorously defend the same display only with Obama in the place of Palin?

45caliber
I love for you to provide the exact source for that quote by Franklin.

The language is very clunky and not like something Franklin would say.

He did say though "there never was a good war nor a bad peace." Seems to be in contrast to your quote.

You may mean a quote by Jefferson "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." When Timothy McVeigh was arrested he was wearing a shirt with this quote. Jefferson also wrote this "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing" which is also close to your false Franklin quote.

Hey there, read this one again.

Standshisground Location: MO
Reply # 162
Date: Oct 29, 2008 - 1:26 PM EST
============
jim Location: CA
Reply # 134
Date: Oct 29, 2008 - 12:18 PM EST
Subject: “Press” has a very wide definition.

I am a right wing Conserv, and I was saying the same thing you did.



Akagi
Do you realize that you answered baseballdoc’s post which started the whole clearance discussion?

Akagi
I would suggest that you are far down the road of apples and oranges to try to compare the world of 150 or more years ago of Texas or the Southern Secession to the world today. Your Red and Blue represents shades of purple, after all, when you get to specific issues, let alone politicians within the two parties. Aside from the fact that the US is an integrated whole in the way the world of that day never was, is the more pragmatic fact that those wanting secession represent only a handful of the total population. As I said, this is only venting of frustrated people. People of this board may engage in such delusions - but 90% of the people aren't going along. After all, they've been boiling in the increasingly hot water of socialism for decades - so they certainly aren't going anywhere now. Obama may turn the heat up a few more degrees than McCain - but that's about it. We are a social democracy. That's what a majority of the people wanted, and its what they voted for. And they keep voting for it. And the run the country. The rest, will, I imagine those on the far left and those on the far right may desire to leave - but there aren't enough of them.

Constantine Ivanov
I read this story once. I didn’t know you wrote it. You left out the part about introducing drugs and how the Beatles were going to weaken the youth.

My favorite part or your current version so far is your disillusionment. I note particularly how you couldn’t tell that there are no gulags here, that the press however bias is still free, that obvious staunchly opposed political parties exist and that affluence is wide spread across the entire country.

If I were to make jokes, I would ask if you were sure that you’re really in America; but that would never measure up to “Clinotiana” so I’ll hold back and point out only that your powers of observation and assessment are poor at best and that this fiction you are writing would go over better if you include the part where Obama secretly drinks baby’s blood by the light of the moon.

Nope
"And George Bush would never have become President."

Presidents don't need to pass a security clearence. The electors selected by the people decide if he or she is trustworthy enough.

I have not confirmed if this was true, but the film Tora, Tora, Tora, has a scene where Col. Rufus Bratton claims that due to leaks FDR was not on the list for the Magic intercepts, but now he had been re-added.

So if there was a question about the president or those close to the president about leaking or security, I suppose an agency or elements within an agency could quietly cut him off.




Mod Mark, Jack, and yoshi
Mod Mark:

You said, "Don't forget the South Dakota vote in 2006 when a ban on abortion was voted down".

This is exactly the way the issue of abortion SHOULD be settled, on a state-by-state basis. And if the people decide by a free vote that they want it, so be it, I may not be thrilled about it, but I'll live with it. Same-sex marriage should be the same way: if America adopts it by an open vote of the people, even though I would never vote for it myself, I'll live with it if this is how a majority of my countrymen want it. So if I were living in South Dakota right now, at least I'd feel like my state allowed abortion because of a decision made by the people, not a few judges.


Jack and yoshi:

All right, at least you two seem consistent on the issue of free expression, so I'll give you credit for that. However, I don't believe the majority of liberals in this country HAS that consistency, and certainly not enough in the federal government. Yes, I know, Jack, SUPPOSEDLY Obama has no use for the Fairness Doctrine, but the problem is, I simply don't believe the sincerity of his present stance once or if he's actually in a position to resurrect it as president. Supposedly, he's also against same-sex marriage, but he has openly said he wants to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act: I simply can't square those two positions and believe he's sincere about the former. You also said it wouldn't pass a SCOTUS test - but the problem is, I don't recall a SCOTUS decision as the reason the Fairness Doctrine is not currently in effect.

And yoshi, I'm not at all convinced that a resurrection of the Fairness Doctrine won't pass a Democratic-majority Congress. If Obama wins the White House, he's going to owe a lot to the far left of the Democratic Party - and a resurrection of the Fairness Doctrine is one part of the coin they'll demand payment in. I'm not convinced he'll be statesmanly enough to resist their demands.

Ben Franklin said:
"The country should have a civil war every two hundred years to throw out the crooked politicians that flock to it and to get rid of all the bad laws that take people's money. Then the new government can start over."

Is it time yet?

A straight answer to D. MacKinnon, #3
Continuation...

The Fairness Doctrine is like a bandit with a dagger in hands is awaiting Obama's throning.

Should I mention such repressive things like banning 10 Commandments and Christmas Trees from public sights and the Oath of Allegiance in public schools while allowing and even encouraging Islamization of public schools? Or constant attacks on the fading-out Conservative media?

And with electing Obama what will we have?
Liberadical President with his 'wealth redistribution' job-killing and welfare promoting Marxist ideology, Liberadical Vice-President with his 'patriotism of raising taxes', Liberadical Congress with their crazy spending agenda, Liberadical Supreme Court with its indifference to voter registration fraud, Liberadical Media with their rabid lechery promotion = One-Party System = DEATH TO DEMOCRACY.

Unless we the People amend the Constitution banning Nazism and Communism as ideologies that lead to bloodiest regimes and giving no Freedom to those who restrain Freedom of others, we nowadays – with all those rabid movements – are doomed to have one-Party system!

Unbridled, unrestrained Democracy is a fantasy, an illusion, because it leads to severely restrained Democracy if not to dictatorship
(recall Democratically elected Hitler in Germany, Chavez in Venezuela, Ahmadinejad in Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza!)

And now we are approaching One-Party Dictatorship that Hillary (not only she, of course) is so passionately cheering to...

In Winter 1941, Germans were in 10 miles from my home in Moscow.
In May 1945, Russian Soldiers put the Victory Flag on the Reichstag in Berlin.

Der eiserne Fuß of American Sozis is measuring out its pace all over America...Left, Left, Left, Left...

Will we have our May 1945?

French president on obama
Sarkozy (President of France) called obama's ideas on Iran "arrogant and utterly immature".

This will pose somewhat of a problem for you libs who like to say that we need someone to restore our allies respect...will you say the President of France doesn't matter? That's not what you said 6 years ago.

We're waiting.....

A straight answer to D. MacKinnon, #2
Continuation...

Then in 1929, the Soviet NKVD (predecessor of the KGB) designed a plan to - simply saying -"Communistize" the USA and the entire world (following Lenin's idea to establish World-wide Communism).
As a result, thousand of Soviet agents masked as actors, cinema and theater directors and producers, University professors started penetrating into the entire USA micro-, macro- and infrastructures (Alinsky and Chomsky were just a microscopical part of that gigantic plot.)
But Americans kept placidly sleeping while Soviet agents and spies kept hard working.
From Roosevelt Assistant Alger Hiss to two Soviet scumbags Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, from Hollywood and Universities to media – the entire America was swarming with Communist chinches.
They devoured the only fighter against American Communistization, McCarthy, but decent American kept kindheartedly sleeping.
Then came the next rabid anti-American Capitalism pro-Communist wave – “peaceniks:”
exactly the same time when decent Soviet citizens fought against Communism sacrificing their lives and freedom, being put in camps, jails and mad houses, American hippies and punks were living in clover and enjoyed unrestrained freedom to disgrace the own country.
And now we have almost no Conservative voices heard, being suppressed and smeared just like Commies did before they started simply annihilating those who were not agreeing with them.

To be continued...

Obama's First Press Conference.
The conference begins...

Obama: "Good Morning. First question. Yes, you. Keith Olbermann."

Olbermann: "Great suit you wearing. Where did you get it?"

Obama: "I'm not sure. Check with my people. Yes, you. Chris Matthews".

Matthews: "I love you".

Obama: "Thank You. Next. You. Katie Couic".

Couric: "I didn't get my invitation to the dinner honoring Bill Ayers. Could you look into that?"

Obama: "Sure, Katie. No problemo. That's all the questions for today. One quick note. Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have been placed under house arrest. There will be no additional information on this matter. Good Day."

Couric, Olbermann and Matthews in unison:

"Thank You Holy One. Thank You. Thank You".


From where comes the love of liberty?

What happened to the love of liberty that characterized the colonial Americans and the founding generations? If we understood the origin of their love for liberty, then perhaps we could answer that question.

The secularists do not like the religious nature of the Founders nor their references to Divine Providence and the Supreme Judge of the earth. Even less do they like the references to the Bible and Christianity.

The religious do not like the favor of Christianity. They deny the influence of the Reformation and the Great Awakening and of Reformed Theology on the American Revolution and American Constitutionalism. They prefer the pagan philosophers of Greece and Rome over the great Reformers, who are the fathers of western thought and culture.

Denying our heritage has resulted in losing perspective of what motivated the early Americans. Their hope was in the sovereign God who had spoken in the person and work of Jesus Christ. They understood that in Christ there is grace greater than their sin and that liberty was to be found in adherence to the God of Law.

What once had accused and condemned them without mercy had now become to them that which is holy, just and good. In Christ they were free of the Law’s condemnation; free to pursue the glory of God in all things including their family, worship, work and community.

We say that the love of liberty comes from the love of the Redeemer of men in an understanding of what great blessings He has secured for His people. Those who deny our heritage will certainly lose the blessings of liberty. Rather than a reliance on Divine Providence, their reliance is in the socialist state.

LOSS OF FREEDOMS
Our beautiful Country has been losing its freedoms for decades. It is possible that the Country of laws is going to become the Country of facism.

The SCOTUS has justed ruled that voters have no standing in determining if candidates make the qualifications for office. If not voters, citizens of the U.S., then who?

Leaders in Congress are now talking about whole sale taxation of our 401k's, IRA's, etc. If the property we acquired through hard work and sacrifice, doesn't belong to us, then who?

Wholesale fraud is driving voter registration. Elected officials are denying count of legitimate ballots. If regular voters ballots are elimnated and fraudulant ballots counted, choice of leaders doesn't depend on us, then who?

The list goes on and on. This election can only the slow the process to a socialist, facist state. When we look to government for all our needs, government looks to us for all our possessions and freedoms. All things have a price.

Yoshi and Akagi
"Also consider this - if drug use alone would prevent someone from gaining the necessary clearance - the government would have a very hard time recruiting people."

And George Bush would never have become President.

A straight answer to D. MacKinnon, #1
You asked:
"Does the United States of America Still Exist?"

Want an answer from a former Soviet citizen who can really - practically, not only theoretically - compare two seemingly different systems?

I was full up (or fed up, if you will) with the Communists in the former USSR where I spent almost 50 years of my life and I escaped that country in a hope to spend the rest of my life in a normal country.

After almost 4 years in Japan, I came to the USA at the end of the second year of the Clinotiana.

It was not one year after I came to the country that my illusions about the Capitalist America as opposed to the Communist USSR started dispersing.

My further observations and studies brought me to a conclusion that the USA began rotting as a consequence of planting seeds of Communism weeds into its soul soil long before the overwhelming majority of Americans could even imagine.

Who now remembers or knows the full of delight and ecstasy "Ten Days that Shook the World" written in 1919 by American journalist and socialist John Reed?
But that book gave a strong incentive to establishing the Communist Party of the USA (CPUSA) in the same year.

To be continued...

RAPIER - COME ON DOWN TO TEXAS
We have a lot in common with citizens of Colorado, the free spirit of independence prevails. We know how to rid our lawns of fire ants and socialist.

My favorite transplanted Texan was Davy Crockett, who served two terms as a congressman. While running as an independent for the office his slogan was "So Say The People". Today we need more congressmen/women who believe that and vote that way.

'REMEMBER THE ALAMO'!

Akagi
During background checks all information about a candidate is considered but drug use or "shady" associations alone are usually not enough to turn down someone. If a person was turned down for using drugs in college than something else in addition to that was the cause of it (lying about it? inconsistent story? etc).

Also consider this - if drug use alone would prevent someone from gaining the necessary clearance - the government would have a very hard time recruiting people.

RE: Barbara in PA
In reply to your post at 5:46 am, I spent thousands to have my children educated in a private school. One went on to become an electrical engineer and the other is presently in medical school. Both are intelligent conservatives who have no trouble recognizing socialism as the dangerous evil it is.
In our youth idealism draws us in but experience teaches us personal reliance is the key to success. I am sorry for liberals who didn't have parents to guide them properly and hold them responsible the damage they cause our country.

STandsground at 1:26
I will explain this.

First, I do not in any way think that "conservative talk-radio should be censored by the government." I have no use for the fairness doctrine. Nor, as I understand it, does Obama. If it were enacted, I seriously doubt it would ever pass a SCOTUS first amendment test. If it ever comes up, I will be by your side as you wave your tiny little fists of fury in anger.

This I, as a liberal, support the west Hollywood homeowner and Rush Limabugh, even though their situations are different in significant ways.

Happy now?

Yoshi
It depends on the agency and not just the time but the number. If you smoked pot say every day for a year 20 years ago, you'd be unable to work for the FBI--in any capacity.

For Coke the number is a life-time use of 5 times. Did Obama use Coke more than 5 times?

And as for FBI special agents, there can be zero drug use--ever.


Standshisground
"I wonder how the very same liberals who claim to be in favor of free expression"

I think those liberals are hypocrites and idiots. But I also think conservatives that bring up the "fairness doctrine" are conspiricy loons. It will never passed congress. Its only brought up to scare people like you into voting for McCain.

ProudtobeanAmerican
What an odd choice of names. How can you be proud when you are opposed to people voting for the candidate of their choice? Furthermore, you seem to advocate throwing people who you disagree with out of the country. That puts you in opposition to the basic tenets of America and the wishes of our founders. In essence you are one of the folks who would end America.

Ironic, isn’t it?

However, I have a hard time taking you seriously. You are like one of the caricature liberals that Georgetwin has in all his stories.

Hal
YOu do wax hyperbolic about obama- born of color to a mom "who struggled to keep it together, worked his way through college.

He had 2 summer jobs during his college years."
Factcheck says "it's still a stretch for Obama to say he "worked his way through college."

His Mom was born and raised in relative affluence. At one point in her life between marriages, she decided to go back to college yet again to get her PhD in antropology. She parked baby barack with the evil (but conveniently affluent) grandparents, who sent him to tony schools. During that period, she applied for foodstamps. Lots of hippies did during that time. Most other Americans just waited tables instead.
You go on and vote for Barry, but don't romanticize him around me.

Mod Mark
I think part of the reason why there is such a backlash against the right is that they've been in control for the last eight years and have broke every promise they've made. They have become the party of big government with unchecked control over Americans. Voters just aren't buying their "sky is falling rhetoric" anymore.

Mod Mark
The FBI policy was within 36 months or 15 times ever and 120 months or 5 times ever for drugs Obama used like Coke. Those involved in criminal cases, terrorism and the like--no drug use at all.

For State, I have known people that were turned down due to drug use--pass drug use when they were in college. years ago.

state to secede??????
If any stte inmodern times trie to secede the US givernment would listen to their case very patiently, juast a you do to 2 year old, then pat hm a few time on his behind explaining to him all the while why thi will never happen and then lead him gently back into the fold as you would with a 99 yearold grandmother who has alzheimwers. Put her to bed, tell her hiw nuch you love her and then go about your busibness. By the nexg day it would all be forgotten.

jim in CA
I wonder how the very same liberals who claim to be in favor of free expression but who think that conservative talk-radio should be censored by the government justify that given that these very same liberals' supposed belief in free expression doesn't lead them to denounce that homeowner in West Hollywood who right now has dangling from his roof in full public view an effigy of Sarah Palin in a noose.

You liberals who claim to believe in free expression, even if just for the sake of argument I were to agree with you that the product of people like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter is vulgar and obscene, if you're going to defend that public display of an effigy of Sarah Palin hanging from a noose as an allowable example of free expression that shouldn't be censored by the government because "we have to accept things that offend us from time to time", tell me therefore why the product of the imaginations of Rush and Sean and Ann & Co. shouldn't be just as free from government censorship under the very same principle.

Defend your double standard - if you can, or DARE.

Re: Jeffrey in MI
Obviously, you never listen to Limbaugh or other Conservative pundits. Limbaugh's only promotes Conservative ideals and those promoted by our founding fathers. According to you, that is "extremist." By the way, according to the Battleground Poll, 60 percent of Americans, historically,consider themselves to be conservative.

We support limited government, as did our founders. Yet, government has now grown out of control, and its enormity attracts millions of dollars in special interests and corruption. And, media supports this abomination.

Bush may call himself a Republican, but he is no conservative.

If there are any extremists, it is Democrats like Obama who wish to grow government even bigger through higher taxes. Higher taxes is just plain un-American.

FYI, Bush never suspended habeus corpus.

Proud #137
You know there are some Democrats and/or Liberals who will take being called a traitor by some old coot like you and turn the other cheek.

But I am tired of crotchety old toots wailing about the Commies coming to get them in the night.

I am just as patriotic and American as you are so when you get a chance, put your breathing tube back in your nostril and wait for us to claim victory over your tired old a%%SAS.

You'll be the first on the list.

Ask yourselves why...
...Why is the political right wing so unpopular? Why does the media favor the left?

Could it be that that the left is right and the Right is wrong?

Maybe that explains it.

Redlac
A large number of people opposed Texas leaving the Union--Sam Houston among them--in 1861, Texas left anyway. Same with Georgia and many other states. Secession didn't have 100% support, even in the firebrand states like South Carolina.

You wouldn't have to kick them out, even if that would be prefered than having disloyal members behind your lines. The Tories (the 1861 version) did cause lots of problems for the secess' states during the war as did the Tories during the Revolution for the rebels. After the war most of those fled to other British holdings such as English speaking Quebec and the West Indies.


Mod Mark
For government work - its a 10 year limit. 7 year is usually the norm in the private sector. Personally I get background checked about every 6 months and they go back 10 years since I work in both government and private sectors.

Akagi
Mod Mark is right. Past drug use does not disqualify you from jobs at the State, CIA, etc. What would disqualify you is lying about it or continued use. Knowing people who have committed crimes also doesn't disqualify you.

So all this talk about Obama or Clinton not being able to "get a job" in Government is quite silly.

jerabaub
You seem to be going somewhere with your founding fathers having built in the check and balance for executive and legislative powers, then you just drop it.

You're not concerned about the concentration of power we are facing?

I can tell you I am, mostly because it is not coming from moderate democrats.

Congress filibuster proof with a rubber stamp in the white house.

I think you will find circuit and appeals courts appointments made (congress has been ignoring current nominees for TWO YEARS and more, and that those judges appointed will be interpreting things quite liberally. That's branch #3.

Where is the "check" on what our founding fathers knew was our gravest danger: absolute power.
Where is it?

Mod Mark
Not sure what agency you work for--but past drug use will in fact disqualify you from State, CIA, FBI, Customs and a host of other agencies.

It was reported that Clinton could not have gotten a job in the WH with his same past.

All you fear will not happen
right away...

Stupid
RALPH:

Bush didn't like about WMD and if he did so did Clinton (both of them), Kerry, Edwards, Biden, the UN, the intel agencies of France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States and many others.

Gitmo is hardly a Gulag. They are lucky this isn't 1945. Care to recall what "unlawful combatants" faced when Truman was president? Well, summary execution--why not read up on the werewolves sometime. What happened to the German Saboteurs the US caught on US soil back in 1942? A military tribunal (like those Bush wanted to hold at Gitmo) and after conviction 6 of the 8 that landed on US soil during Operation Pastorius were swiftly executed. Confederate spies faced the same treatment from your pal Lincoln. The CSA also did the same to those they caught--e.g. the Anderson Raiders. William Campbell and James Andrews and six others were tried and hanged as spies.

I think I'll probably
stop reading TH after the election but with silly fanatical articles like this one, it will be a guilty pleasure I'll miss. Bush suspends the writ of habeus corpus and this author is worried about a biased media. In fact, it is media rightwing extremists who have facilitated the decline of the GOP. People like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and writers like MacKinnon legitimize the worst kinds of feelings among conservatives. I think the definitive study of the decline and fall of the GOP will have to include the culpability of rightwing pundits and how they facilitated extremist thoughts.

Mr. MacKinnon
Excellent question posed in this article.I am 40 now, and I can't believe the direction this country seems to be headed. What do we expect when the left wins the fight to rewrite history for our children teaching them how evil America has been, when the ACLU does everything it can to undermine justice in our country, when our courts legislate from the bench to push through policies We the People are pretty evenly divided over, and as you stated, when the MSM (and I would add our universities) exist not to facilitate our youths in forming their own decisions, but in indoctinating them to the profs. own biases. People..... now is the time to wake up!!!!...... change can be good or bad... Obama orates clearly about defining the issues, but he has not been clear on what he will do to effect change. A man is known by the company he keeps!!!!!!! His associations MATTER!!!!!!

No Revolution
There will be no revolution - and no division. How, after all, would such a thing be accomplished? Would the 60& in Texas that vote for McCain demand that the other 40% be exiled - or drive them out?

Red vs. blue exists only in the minds of simplistic thinkers. Arizona will probably vote for McCain, but 45% of the people will vote for Obama. Missouri should slide to McCain, but what about the 48% that vote for Obama? Virginia and Florida are toss-ups - meaning that even if McCain comes out ahead - you'd still have to throw out 1/2 the people. Then, beyond Obama, you have the issue of Democratic vs. Republican Governors, Senators and Representatives. What do you do? Many states have one senator from each party. How do you divide that up? We have a Democratic governor in Arizona - I guess that gets us, and McCain and his family tossed - does it not?

In the end, angry people vent. But that's all it is. There is no such thing as a purely red state, nor a purely blue one. Even the reddest of states will have 40% or more voting Democratic. In the last election, a Black Democratic Senatorial candidate almost beat the Republican. In North Carolina, we see two candidates in a tossup for the Senate, and we see a similar situation in Georgia and Kentucky - where the GOP will likely win, but more like 55 - 45%.. So, you'd have to kick out 1/2 the people in Virginia, Florida, North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee and Missouri. Oh yes, and Louisiana. That leaves Alabama and Mississippi. And maybe Wyoming, Idaho, and Utah - after you toss out 40% or so of their people.

This is the United States of America. It is what it is.

Stealth Socialism
If we draw an analogy of running down a path and suddenly finding ourselves up to our necks in quick sand, we might begin to understand what "Stealth Socialism" is all about. The US government is up to it's chest at this point and sinking fast thanks to that "4th Branch" the liberal media. We can thank the media for the current situation, for its failure to publicize the leftist philosophies of Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi, and negelecting to tell the public how Democrats have attached pork barrel appropriations to critical legislation, funding organizations such as ACORN, that in turn donate those funds to Democrat political campaigns, and for failing to truthfully tell the American public exactly what happened at Fannie and Freddie, that the Democrat appointed heads of those organizations forfieted their trust and honor to appease the Democratic party, and their resulting actions wrecked the US economy. There are very few remnants of a once free press in the USA!

A good question
However, if bh0 is elected, the USA will be but a memory.

Saw It Coming
Most of us conservatives saw this coming a long time ago and did nothing to stop it. Many of my friends and relatives thought Bill Clinton would be the one to turn us into a socialistic secular nation. But we were 15 years too early and had the wrong man.

I specifically address my fellow evangelical Christians here. Folks this is our fault. Instead of preaching the Gospel with all our heart and being the salt and light that Jesus intended us to be, we all got fat and lazy pursuing the American dream at the expense of our witness.

Many of my fellow churchgoers seem more concerned with their country club memberships and high class social climbing than in saving souls and teaching traditional Christian morality. Pray people. Pray hard and then go vote for John McCain and Sarah Palin on November 4th. They are not perfect but they are much better than the alternative.


By the way, what is all this talk about seccession? Things haven't gotten that bad yet and I have faith that we can still solve problems without becoming a bananna republic.

Same divisive rants
MacKinnon asks "Does the USA still exist?".

Depends .. which USA?

The one before Bush and his cronies destroyed our Democracy and replaced it with Fascism or the pre-Bush USA?

How come MacKinnon didn't raise his concerns when Bush lied to the American people about the non-existent WMDs in Iraq and sent our troops to fight an illegal war?

How come MacKinnon didn't raise his voice when Bush took his eyes off the hunt for Bin Laden?

How come MacKinnon didn't raise a hue and a cry when Bush statred spying on the American people and instituted the American Gulag with outposts thru out the world and headquarters in Guantanamo?

Which America are you talking about?

Chuck
Sorry I did not get back earlier, but I was watching a movie entitled "Atonement"...NOT a Hollywood blockbuster...which is a good thing.

An English movie.

A superior movie; I recommend it. Doesn't have alot of action, or bells and whistles, which have their place from time to time, but a much superior movie than one finds from Hollywood.

I have precious few fans on this site, and apparently my fan base is dwindling...not that that will constrain me in any way.

Given so few folks are favorably disposed to my opinions, it is difficult to respond to each criticism.

Honestly and with no disrespect intended, I forgot what was our general conversation or thread.

But, regarding your last posting to me, I don't think there is any conspiracy of moderates secretly working on behalf of a leftist agenda.

Maybe these moderates simply disagree with the neocons and Bush administration.

That does not mean they are conspiring with leftists.

This may be my final posting today.

But I appreciated your comments.




Matthew you get Real
You lying traitor, there is not an honest bone in your body !
Only a liar like you would have the nerve to claim the media is not bias and to the left.
Cowards like you want to pretend there are no issues to war over while others give their life for you.. You should have your citizenship taken away and be sent to a socialist or communist country..
I hope someday mankind has advanced so much that we can create an alter world so jerks like you can live in your fantasies, there saddaam hussein would still be in power and you could suffer what you deserve, the consequences of it !
The consequences of your BS.. That is the problem with US, under the coverage of "free speech" we have legitimised ignorant and absurd opinions of a$%$ Hol#$ like you, to our deteriation. Keep living in your fantasy world why others sacrifrice for your Freedom to do so ! So what are you ?? NOTHING !!!!!!!!

To Mod Mark
There are two ways to look forward: with open eyes and with closed eyes.

You wrote:
"Obama sitting on the board with Ayers would not disqualify him from a clearance. Simply knowing folks does not make you a bad guy."

A Latin proverb goes: "Thell me who your friend is and I'll tell you who you are."

Father Pfleger, Rashid Khalidi, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Saul Alinsky,Danny K Davis, the Marxist Chicago New Party activist Carl Davidson, Farrakhan, Rezko, ACORN, and so on. If not to mention that he was a member of the New Party (want a proof? Read and look: http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2008/10/obama-file-36-how-soci alist-was-obamas.html)

Not too many odious names around Obama?
But it's not just "sitting" on the same park bench, it's a FRIENDSHIP and ideologically communicating vessels.
It's not accidental that LA Times refuses releasing the video proving close ideological ties between Obama and Palestinian activist Rashid Khalidi who is brainwashing studenta at Columbia University...

If it would be only a half of such names around McCain, what a howl would media set!

Yes it does !
It will continue to do so when McCain wins on Nov 4th or 5th, however long it takes to count the votes. But we will have to fight to correct the loopholes that allowed the farce of a candifake like obaliar, who wants to change all that is good for the US and rebuild it for goverment control of everything and all the power to him and his cronies ! We have to reign in the mass media it is a propaganda machine for the radical leftist it is not an ethical media, the acorn cheaters and more !

It will be on a fast pace to destruction if obaliar wins and we will have to fight much, much, much, harder maybe then we will find out if there are still enough Americans who love the red, white and blue enough !

I am tired of reasoning with the jerks who are voting for obaliar ! McCain should be winning this election by 30 points but he is not because of all the jerks that do not love the United States of America, you are not Americans, you are malcontents, opportunists and go long's to get along, your vote for obaliar betrays our country....save your BS and anybody else who will say I am going too far, I don't give a sh@#T, I am tired of waiting on these obaliar sheep to wake up...YOU DON'T LOVE YOUR COUNTRY WHEN YOU VOTE FOR A MAN WHO IS A LIAR, A MANIPULATOR AND IS TELLING YOU CHANGE, CHANGE, TO HIS WAYS AND HIS POWERS !! YOU WOULD BE SCREAMING RACISM AND DOWN WITH THE RICH IF McCain had $750 million in campaign $$, was buying 1/2 hour of prime time coverage to spew out lies, acorn was stealing votes for him, the mass media was in the tank for him, but you don't say a word because you obaliar supporters are all HYPOCRITES and you don't love the USA !!

Traitors !

baseball doc
The security clearance issue is just another pice of crap flung at a wall with the hopes it will stick.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/security.asp

Ya know if you guys spent nearly as much time on real issues as you do chasing fairy tales you might be doing better in the polls.

Texas Independance
Reba, as much as I dislike fire ants, Texas is my choice for future residency, esp if the 57 states of america becomes reality.


“Press” has a very wide definition.

Douglas says: One of the first steps the socialist-four will take will be to censor and ultimately silence Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Laura Ingraham and all of conservative radio.

I wonder if the lefties have even thought that if the “fairness” doctrine was actually done in a fair and balanced manner, MSNBC, CNN, and the three networks, along with the Hate America Radio Network, would be the first to be censored.

Do you ever hear them say anything about the Numb Jerk Slimes, the Left Angeles bird cage liner, and all those others. And if they do, what about the comment in the First Amendent?

I thought that the word “Press” has a very wide definition. Did they think that when Murrow and his cohorts were on the radio, they were not considered “The Press.”


Mod Mark
No, I actually don't think gay marriage IN ITSELF would be the "final straw" that would put the spark to the kindling of a modern-day secessionist movement. As I've said in my posts both to Pat Buchanan's thread yesterday and on this thread today, it would be one of a plethora of issues that could potentially drive a sizable segment of the population to seriously vamp with the idea of secession.

And it wouldn't even be gay marriage insofar as IF it became the law of the land as opposed to HOW it became the law of the land. I oppose same-sex marriage, and abortion and would never vote for it, but if there's enough of a consensus throughout the country that wants them and through their votes would make it the law of the land, I say, all right, so be it, then let the PEOPLE decide - and if they vote them in, I won't be happy about it, but I'll live with it. The problem with same-sex marriage is, like with abortion, it appears the Democrats don't want to make it the law of the land through a popular vote but by the fiat of only a few unelected judges.

And as I said before about Obama being elected, or his election seriously impugned, by credible instances of voter fraud in a close election, I hope that DOESN'T happen. But even after Bush was sworn in on Inauguration Day of 2001, even though Democrats/liberals may have had to accept it, they never ceased impugning Bush's Administration as illegitimate - and Bill Clinton joined that chorus also, we may remember. It is to the very same people who have been impugning the legitimacy of the Bush Administration because of Florida 2000 that my question in my post of 11:17 am was directed if a similar thing happens with Obama in 2008.

Mod Mark
His drug use would disqualify him from almost any government job that required a security clearence which includes State, FBI, CIA, working in the White House. His ties to some might also flag him--especially his ties to Rashid Khalidi and Ayers and Dohrn.

You are correct that as President (or as far as that goes members of his cabinet and staff) don't need one. The point was, would you put someone in office that has such a murky pass that couldn't be hired as a CIA desk jockey?


O.
I’m always hesitant to put down the “masses” being one of them myself. And of course, you being above all those “sheep” make you an elite and you know very well that conservatives are opposed to the elite.

It seems the cure for the dilemma you described is to deny the vote to the masses and just let the elite like yourself run the country.

Like I said in my initial post, you “patriots” amaze me.

Does the USA still Exist?
Yes but it is hanging on a silver thread and Obama is holding the scissors.

World Bank
BET:

Is a Bretton Woods Institution and totally independent from the UN and basically controlled by the US. Of the 11 presidents of the World Bank, 10 have been American, including the last two. The US controls this thing. If it undermines anyone's independence, it is the countries of the developing world.

WHAT KIND OF FOLLS

.....Would elect a man to be Chief Executive Officer and Commander in Chief who could not get the same security clearance required of a Washington tour guide? ...

.....Apparently 50% of the Country and all of the Blue States .....COLOSSUS

lon
Per John Stossel's column today, massive registration of ill-informed voters with the accompanying implication to vote Democrat is, in my opinion, a form of voter fraud.

Does the USA Still Exist?
We the people are supposed to guide our own destiny with interest and active participation in the politics of the country. Prudence and a conservative stance are required. We vote for politicians who do our bidding not the other way around and a sense of entitlement at the expense of others is not a consideration. “Keeping our powder dry” for future emergencies is essential; another words a healthy reserve in economic and military might is necessary. We the people are doing none of these things and we make ourselves very vulnerable to our enemies and we are mortgaging our futures on borrowed moneys that we don’t control. It’s time to get our internal house in order. Get back to basics like balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility in our own homes and in government. Secure our borders, throw all the blood-sucking vermin out of the country, bring back the manufacturing base, bring our military home, and restrain our diplomatic efforts to a minimum…we are not the world’s policeman and it just invites more animosity from all the deranged but envious mobs outside our borders. We have to stop the hemorrhaging of all that is dear to this nation starting with ourselves and demanding accountability and restraint from the political office holders. That is a nation of strength; the one we have now is an obese Baby Huey waiting to be knocked over with a feather (one of its own at that).

Does the USA Still Exist?
Good question.
No wishful thinking is going to change the fact that this monkey in an empty suit masquerading as the savior of the land without showing anyone a single "miracle" he accomplished is very likely to become president.

Little by little the liberal left has made inroads in every aspect of our lives and the two they have targeted for concentrated manipulation are education and the media. This is right out of the old communist playbook. The big problem here is that the masses have allowed to be lulled into the “fat, dumb as dirt, and artificially/superficially “happy” existence that prevails today. Hence, the flock of sheep is easily swayed, controlled, and eventually fleeced. Sane citizens must collectively resist this kind of brainwashing, especially when packaged with the warm and fuzzy fluff calculated to disarm the viewer while they feed you their noxious pap almost sublimely. This takes “right effort”, another value degraded by the liberal left.

Who cares?
"50% of Americans will not be of Europeon extraction."

So what? Only the Klan and Pat Buchannan will that is who.

Lon
I'm not saying that it's going to be a GIVEN that Obama might win through massive voter fraud, or at least enough of it to give him a victory in a close election. All I asked was what liberals who post here would think if there was damning evidence that this in fact happened.

And in point of fact, you personally answered my question, so I give you kudos for that: it isn't too common that liberal posters give me a direct answer to a direct question.

I hope that the 2008 presidential election ISN'T decided, or at least seriously impugned, by vote fraud or potential vote fraud. I'll live with Obama's winning the White House if it's a "clean" win, or at least by enough of a margin to take it beyond the realm of being able to have been decided by vote fraud. Even liberal black columnist Leonard Pitts, definitely not a charter member of the VRWC, wrote a column shortly before Bush's second inauguration deriding his fellow liberals for questioning the legitimacy of Bush's second presidential election victory because he didn't feel it was as close as many liberals were making it sound such that there was serious reason to question its legitimacy.

Hal
Yes Hal, the land is yours--even the land you stole. I disagree though. If a state has had quite enough of the Union it should be free to go with a friendly goodbye from the rest.

Lincoln was wrong in 1861 and those that are against the right of secession are wrong today. Secession is the ultimate check on federal tyranny. If anyone was decadent it was the Union. The old-CSA recovered much quicker than 100 years too.


RIGHT ON MACKINNON !
AS PART OF THE BAIL OUT WE SHOULD BE GIVEN AT LEAST 3TV NET WORKS!WERE IS ROSS PEROT!?HE NEEDS TO BACK MCCAIN-PALIN!WHERE IS ALL THE CONSERVATIVE AMERICANS!?OBAMA IS UN-AMERICAN.

Thank you
For the article that gets right to the point. It seems from some of the comments that a lot of people don't get the significance of what you are saying. I am amazed daily at what this country has turned into. Socialism has failed so many times, yet the left has to take us through another drubbing.

Jack
I can't speak for my fellow would-be Johnny Rebs, but I'm not in favor of a dissolution of the Union merely because Obama is elected president, if it happens. If Obama is inaugurated on January 20, I'm not in favor of seceding from the union on January 21. I'd certainly want to see what he will do as president first before I'd even THINK about that.

Our fear is - and I would love to be proven wrong on this, and if I were, I'd gladly accept liberals mocking us conservatives about it for the rest of our lives - that a President Obama, backed by a Democratic Congress, will adopt policies that will in effect silence conservative opposition and ensure permanent Democratic Party control in Washington, regardless of future actual vote counts, by making widespread vote fraud a permanent construct of future elections. Not to mention a whole host of other things, like forcing same-sex marriage on America without a vote, trying to exert greater control over America's children and riding roughshod over parents in the process, etc.

By the way, what Obama may do ECONOMICALLY if he's president is frankly the least of the issues I would have as a justification to leave the Union. As long as the people still have a free say to change the power make-up in Washington if Obama's president and if they don't like Democratic Party economic policies, then I figure the people can deal with changing that without a secessionist prod. It's the cultural fall-out that concerns we conservatives who are sounding the call for a potential secession. If we see concrete indications of America being turned into what is effectively a totalitarian state under the Democrats, THAT is what will drive the fire of secession.

Robert
Since my degrees are in political science and one of my main areas of research was comparative political theory, I have studied a good many "isms." Also note that just because the direction of the US is not what you see as the framer's vision doesn't make that direction toward communism.

Standshisground:

In the winter of 1861 the US army was very tiny mostly spread out along the frontier. Many of the officers in the army left it once their states left the Union--Robert E. Lee, Albert Sidney Johnson, etc.--as did many of few enlisted troops in the army at the time.

Today the US has a large standing army--something the founders didn't like very much for this very reason, the army can be a tool of tyranny. In addition it has reserve troops, national guard troops which can be nationalized and various paramilitary troops such as ATF, FBI, ICE, the US Marshal Service, Border Patrol and on and on. Obama could bring to bear millions of troops and since this is not 1861, the US military is an advanced one--advanced armor, aircraft, heavy guns, etc. A state wouldn't stand a chance against the might of the US.

If you wanted to launch a Maoist peoples' war, well maybe. Kill off political leaders, economic sabotage, what today you'd call terrorism, hit and run tactics against the police, army and other security forces. But it is a long process to victory--took Mao (with outside support) 32 years, Ho Chi Min 30 years (he actually died before ultimate victory). Castro quicker, 6 years.

I don't see people really relishing declaring war on the US and staying at it for 20 or 30 years or even 6 years.

And the army will do what it is told. The FBI basically murdered US civilians at Ruby Ridge and Waco, you think they wouldn't do so again? That the army wouldn't if asked?

standshisground
I suspect that I for one will be to busy avoiding being crapped on by the pigs that are flying in your scenario.

Given that no serious voter fraud has ever been detected based on ACORN voter drives why do you imagine it would be different this time around?

Obviously if I thought Obama won through voter fraud I would think his victory illegitimate. But why would one think that to be the case?

Robert
Still looking for some information, argument, or evidence that supports your claim.

Thus far...nada