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Monday, February 25, 2008
Doug Wilson :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Canada Tells Us About Government Health Care
by Doug Wilson
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Americans may not agree on much between now and November, but we have reached a consensus about the importance of at least one issue: health care.

In a recent study by the Pew Research Center, 76 percent of registered voters said that health care was very important to their vote. Democrats ranked health care their most important issue; Independents slotted it as their second most important issue. Republicans, meanwhile, positioned health care as more important than social issues such as abortion, gay marriage and stem cell research.

This public concern has prompted political action—or at least political posturing. It seems every politician has a plan to solve our health care woes. For Democrats, the silver bullet remains universal, government-funded coverage. Both Senators Obama and Clinton have proposed regulation and tax-heavy programs to offer cradle-to-grave health care for Americans.

Ironically, these proposals come at a time when some of our other entitlements—Social Security and Medicare—stand on the brink of collapse. For example, most experts agree that Social Security will be entirely bankrupt by 2041, and that the system will show serious financial strain as early as 2017. If a business faced such dire financial straits it would cut costs, but the government continues its perpetual spending spree.

Before we allow the government to burden us with another mammoth entitlement program, however, we might well consider the plight of countries currently employing socialized medicine. And we need not look very far for an example. Since the 1960s, Canada has operated a system of socialized medicine, while also forbidding the private sector from insuring medically necessary care.

The verdict: Canadians pay more for their health care and get less. That’s according to the Fraser Institute, an independent research and educational organization based in Canada. Fraser’s recently released study, “Paying More, Getting Less: Measuring the Sustainability of Government Health Spending in Canada” calls our attention to the painful realities of government-funded health care.

How, exactly, do Canadians pay more for their health care? Taxes, naturally—and higher and higher ones at that, for there is no other way to maintain such an enormous entitlement. Consider that by 2035, six of 10 Canadian provinces will spend half of their taxpayer-generated revenue on health-related expenses.

In slow economic times, health spending tends to exceed revenue. The government responds by raising existing taxes or creating new ones; to do otherwise would lead to the neglect of other government programs like schools and roads.

By restricting the market, public health care programs create long waits for specialists and often prevent patients from pursuing new treatments. Indeed, the median wait times between a referral from a family or general doctor to a specialist for further treatment increased significantly in every Canadian province between 1997 and 2006. For many treatments and procedures, Canadians are forced to wait twice as long as doctors believe is medically advisable.

Canada’s restrictive policies have also reduced the number of various types of health professionals, limited the availability of advanced equipment and severely restricted the prescription drug choices. Consider that even after Health Canada certifies a new drug, it takes over a year for that drug to actually reach the patients who need it. Between 2004 and 2005, it took an average of 439 days for provinces to receive reimbursement for drugs, forcing patients to wait months for necessary medications.

The list could go on, but it need not. We get the picture. The question is: What are we going to do about it?

The answer lies in the marketplace. Among the more promising proposals currently before Congress is the Health Care Choice Act. The Act would allow individuals to compare and purchase health insurance across state lines. This is a very important, if often misunderstood, way of reducing health care costs. Here’s a quick primer: Because health care is primarily regulated at the state level, states can force providers to cover services and procedures (e.g., chiropractic care or fertility treatments) regardless of necessity or patient demand. Insurance companies then pass these higher costs along to every consumer, regardless of whether they want or need coverage for such procedures.

A more efficient system would allow individuals to select the health care plans of their choice. Such a plan recognizes that a 20 year old male typically has very different medical needs than a 60 year old woman. Freeing consumers to select a health care plan that meets their needs and budget, even if it is in a different state, is a common sense solution that would ease the budget crunch facing many American families. And, thankfully, the Health Care Choice Act is just one of many promising ways in which we can address our health care needs without burdening our children with another entitlement that we can’t afford.

In the end, our financial and medical futures are simply too important to be left exclusively to government control. Few people know this lesson better than Canadians themselves. Just ask the many pregnant Canadians who are forced to travel to the U.S. to deliver their children because their country has—wait for it—too few hospital beds.

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About The Author

Doug Wilson is the the co-author, with Edwin Feulner, of Getting America Right: The True Conservative Values Our Nation Needs Today.

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Bob Hope said...
“Well, the election campaign in the country is picking up speed... All the candidates are talking about health care now. Don’t they realize that it’s their campaign speeches that makes us sick?”

Newpapers?
Hal Donahue writes: Monday, February, 25, 2008 5:47 PM

"That should have hit the newspapers have any links? That said I can give you a few horror military medicine stories BUT far more civilian ones. I know the military cannot order a dependant to receive medical treatment because it happened to me in Germany when I left my son stay in the German hospital. I didn't blame Reagan and I did not cave."

I'm confused how an enlisted sailor suddenly became my dependent in the story. She was 17 years active duty. Assuming.

Exactly how and when would the story hit the newspapers? Oh, at the part where we were both threaten with brig time while our children were assigned wards of the state. Sometimes your logic amazes me. Now, when a DODS principal tried to force ritilin use I called newspapers because the DODS principal do not have armed guards to incarcerate me.

halD writes: "...patients not seeing a

doctor because of the bills etc and their cancer is far along and untreatable by the time they must come in?"

First! WHEN a patient comes in was NOT part of the problem, so lets get THAT out of the way, and understand that this is only part of halD's problem... A) he can't read or listen, and B) where his brain (what's left of it) actually is.

The value of human life depends on condition?

Bet halD's attitude would change if one of his loved ones (assuming halD actually has loved ones) was sick and the STATE made the decision as to whether or NOT that PERSON DESERVED CARE or TREATMENT.

And the libs think the Conservatives are mean! Puh! What a joke.


halD actually should worry because IF we have SOCIALIZED health care, he'd be among one of the first who would be denied care... no doubt someone would determine that halD isn't worth the time and money....




Advances made in Canada
Apoplectic asked what medical advances had been made in Canada or Cuba. None to my knowledge in Cuba - but in Canada the first discovery of treatments for diabetes tops the list! Here there have also been numerous advances in the treatments for cancers among other things.

We lived in the USA most of our lives and immigrated to Canada in 1992, becoming citizens in 1995. We owned and operated a business in the USA for over 20 years and had to deal with rising health care costs for our employees at that time. I know that these costs have risen astonomically since then.

I don't envy you all having do deal with the choices offered now. But I shudder when I hear Obama offer CHANGE without offering WHAT change or telling what the costs will be.

Hal D.

Well today was the day I never expected from you.

We actually agree on several items, ie., Lawyers, Insurance cos and this latest generation of doctors.

I also totally agree that left and right come nearly to the same point although from opposite sides as in a circle which starts as a straight line but as followed becomes a circle with two facing arrows.

Never thought I would see the day.

Just goes to show what I taught my boys, no one is totally liberal or conservative. It depends on the subject and the intensity.

Unconstitutional ???
As health insurance is a province of state government, how does the federal government just take it over? I think it would be struck down by the courts, if challenged.

I looked at Obama's plan and it looks mostly like a price fixing scheme. I cannot see imposing it untested on the whole country. they should try it first in Vermont.

Robert
"the problem is that the far right and left, but the far right more..."

I see them as the back side of the same circle

"For profit" is not bad in a country built on free enterprise and hard work...but gone unchecked we are at the modern day equivlenet of Sinclair's Jungle..."

Amen to that and these poor folks cannot see themselves. Oh well.

"The debate in the 08 election is going to be what the control laws are for an evolution in the access to health care...that is coming in the US. It is...there is a think a clamor ofr it as in an idea (of some sort) whose time has well come!"

The doctors are now coming onboard in large numbers they realise the system cannot continue as is. We are ranking up a new medical school here so I am meeting quite a few of them.

Must run off but be well

Robert
It is this old all or nothing brain they have. We need to fix healthcare but we need to fix it our way. Meanwhile these folks continue proving that the perfect can indeed be the enemy of the good

Anne
LOL watched that now is this where I bring up the stories of patients not seeing a doctor because of the bills etc and their cancer is far along and untreatable by the time they must come in? See you cherry pick the data with tearful stories. The facts are far more folks die in the US from medical "troubles" than in Canada or any other industrialised nation. And why don't you bring up US folks going to Mexico and Argentina for medical care? Our system is bust and we need a replacement.

Sorry for the double post! :-(
.

halD: BEFORE you drink one more ounce of
kool aid... you NEED to watch this.

A Short Course On Brain Surgery.

A short but poignant independent film on government sponsored healthcare systems.

Everyone who plans to vote for our new President in 2008 NEEDS to see this.

AND THAT MEANS YOU, halD!!!!!

http://www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php

halD: BEFORE you drink one more ounce of
A Short Course On Brain Surgery Worth Watching...

A short but poignant independent film on government sponsored healthcare systems.

Everyone who plans to vote for our new President in 2008 NEEDS to see this.

http://www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php

Sheeple stop with the Kool aide
Lawyers are the last line of defense from bad doctors and other healthcare providers and facilities. Now if they would clean their own house up.... Insurance companies long ago stopped controlling risk and just stopped accepting risk. Lawyers? Doctors? Insurance companies? A pox on all their houses

uno versal heelth care
the illegal aliens in so cal have FREE health now. just go to your local emergency room.
i want senate health care.
i want senate social security.

i want to cry.

hasta,
Harvey
Lancaster, Taxifornia
dial 1 for english

Universal
it is not universal health care.
it is mandatory health care.
congress is in charge of the v.a. hospitals and clinics.
need i say more?

adios
Harvey
Lancaster, Mexifornia
dial 1 for english
free spanish lessons - $5 each.

In 24 years of social work practice
I have yet so see a single person denied health care. Period. Those who worry about paying for it , now that's another story. Those people tend to avoid doctor or hospital visits, until they find out that they can arrange a payment plan with any hospital for as much as can be afforded per month, even if it is $5.00.

Health care costs can be dramatically reduced by tort reform, managing immigration, and mandatory birth control use for those on public asstistance. This is painfully obvious.

Fix health care......

........shoot nine out of ten lawyers. That includes the ones in congress.

When wild animals are a problem, you shoot enough to thin them back. Well our lawyers are our wild animals with big teeth. Well, just start shooting.

As a great Marxist once said, the longest road starts with the first step. At least he had that part right.

Let's go back to everyone looks after himself or herself. It worked very well for centuries until we got tooooo many judges and lawyers.

Balance is what's needed, not more solutions of a contrived notion. Look at the source. Lawsuits started this whole sordid affair. 100 years ago cancer and nearly any serious disease was rarely heard of. Then we got smart alecky and said, let's solve this cancer problem, and sure enough we made it worse.

Until man learns that the solutions of our forefathers worked, we will suffer. We can make jet airplanes and micro chips but we can't change man's basic nature. What is, is.


The Free Market and Capitalism...
trump any and all socialist programs, plain and simple. The government, either local, state or federal, can't run anything, look at your the DMV for example. A task as simple as getting a driver's license is a nightmare. I can't imagine what a mess the government would make of health care. As a 26 year veteran of the army, I was a victim of socialized medicine and would hate to see it unleashed on an unsuspecting population. Government works best when it governs least.

Fivo
"The doctors at Balboa ordered my wife to undergo surgery in which she was notably crippled more by the results. Then the hospital walked up and threatened our lawyer's practice if he didn't hand over 90% of the penalty monies received from the company whose driver hit her at 50mph at a stop sign. No due process, openly threatened us with UCMJ violations if we sought redress. Yep, the Clinton military medicine machine wasn't a monopoly, it was a dictatorship. "


That should have hit the newspapers have any links? That said I can give you a few horror military medicine stories BUT far more civilian ones. I know the military cannot order a dependant to receive medical treatment because it happened to me in Germany when I left my son stay in the German hospital. I didn't blame Reagan and I did not cave.

Hal, malpractice, and the military
Hal Donahue writes: Monday, February, 25, 2008 10:39 AM
Ahhh see here we go again. First, military medicine has changed. Second, Walter Reed is a perfect example. First point, the care there never suffered and I am a frequent critic and second, while the government and VSOs failed the story still got out, heads rolled and changes were made. No. If you are in a civilian monopoly health market suck it up or get a lawyer. The reason the Bush Regime is trying to dismantle both the Military and the VA is they work.
-------------
The doctors at Balboa ordered my wife to undergo surgery in which she was notably crippled more by the results. Then the hospital walked up and threatened our lawyer's practice if he didn't hand over 90% of the penalty monies received from the company whose driver hit her at 50mph at a stop sign. No due process, openly threatened us with UCMJ violations if we sought redress. Yep, the Clinton military medicine machine wasn't a monopoly, it was a dictatorship.

Chuck writes
"You LIBS point that out to us everyday That Bush went it alone. You know the story that the 9/11 attacks which you blame on Bush had nothing to do with Clinton or the USS Cole bombing."

I said the same thing last week but as usual it goes in one ear and out the other (explains the big empty space between his ears) He'll defend Clinton to his last breath. I've learned never to state facts to Hal becuase he's takes them and twists them to fit his agenda. He's a big defender of John Murtha. It doesn't matter that the charges against the Marines were dropped but he'll defend Murtha and claim that he was right all along.

Hal Doofus writes:
Lumberjack7392
"There you go again
Hal Doofus, citing you own articles so as to look like an expert."

Beats having to type it all again and again. It does make a point.

All it does is waste bandwidth , and subtract from the sum of human knowledge.

Lumberjack7392
"There you go again
Hal Doofus, citing you own articles so as to look like an expert."

Beats having to type it all again and again. It does make a point.

Canada17 wrote
"As if our taxes were not high enough supporting ungrateful muslim immigrants who want to kill us, we have to keep throwing money into this bottomless pit. It's like we are Britain Junior."

Actually, on the "multiculturalism" as a method of divide-and-misrule, Canada is senior to Britain.

I can remember one of my dad's (retired prof @ UCalgary) PhD students cracking the following:
"Canada had a chance to have British form government, French culture and American knowhow. Instead, it chose a French government, British knowhow and American culture"

chuck
"... we had to build up our vehicles/armour the best we could for we new that we where not going to get the Money to do it with since he (CLINTON) gutted us to the bone."

Is wasn't Clinton. it was Clinton and both houses of Congress and both parties - it was called the peace dividend.

" We the SENIOR NCOs in the Army made it work because we knew that the troops could not function without the sacrifices that we had to make."

That was your job and you did it well based on results

"So please dont give me this BS about Clintoon building up something that he tore down, OUR AMERICAN MILITARY"

I said the military Clinton turned over was a good one and conquered two countries - I am correct


There you go again
Hal Doofus, citing you own articles so as to look like an expert.

Except for
raising taxes, gutting the military, and enacting programs that are underfunded initially then take gobs of money to catch up with costs, overstaffed, and underperforming, when have the Dumbbuttcraps ever shown responsibility, and keeping their word, Hal Doofus?

Solo610
"One more thing Hal..
I read the article you linked to. ....Again though, thats another subject all together. "

That was my article and I put it up in response to all the "it's the immigrants" postings and comments here. I didn't even think about the gays. What I was trying to say is all this happened before and here we go again without realising it. What I find even more amusing is more than a few of the leaders locally are the very ones whose grandparents barely knew a word of English.

chuck
"... But to blame Bush, No way you LIBS just tried to make it look like Bush didnt want to supply the Marines just to try and get your PORK PASSED."

Even the marines admit it. Don't you read the news? The marines deliberately didn't want to buy them because it might harm other programs. Geesh Try last week even

HALD
CLINTOON might have been the Commander In Chief but that didnt make him build anything. I know this for fact not opinion because us, the Senior NCOs in the Military/ARMY new that we had to build up our vehicles/armour the best we could for we new that we where not going to get the Money to do it with since he (CLINTON) gutted us to the bone. We the SENIOR NCOs in the Army made it work because we knew that the troops could not function without the sacrifices that we had to make.

So please dont give me this BS about Clintoon building up something that he tore down, OUR AMERICAN MILITARY

I know this for a FACT. I was there and obviously you werent.


Hal Doofus writes:
LMAO if Bush treated 9/11 as a police matter Afghanistan would most likely be stable and Osama dead or imprisoned

We saw how ell that idea worked out. The USS Cole, the Khobar Towers, the East African Embassies attacks all occured after the first World Trade Center bombings. Those terrorists are just so afraid of the US Judicial system.

BTW, Hal Doofus, in today's usually reliablly leftwing USA Today there is an editorial questionking just how Braindead and the Witch would be able to pay for all the "Christmas presents" we have been promised. Maybe the editors of that paper are starting to realize just how expensive those "gifts" are.

Liberty First
"And tell me, Hal, how much of that was States' assistance and how much of that was PRIVATE assistance from other states?"

Back then most were goivernment purchased with the usual private price gouging

"People helping other people of their own free will is neither an abdication nor an assumption of responsibility. ACCEPTING the assistance of others is not abdicating responsibility."

See those mutual assistance pacts are commitments I will help you if you help me. Now conservatives broke those pacts because of cost or incompetence or both. It is clear that a conservatives "word" is not worth having.

"More and more, states EXPECT the Federal Government, in the form of FEMA and disaster relief, to take care of those problems. More and more, states are failing to prepare for those conditions BECAUSE they expect the Federal Government to fix everything."

The plans actually call for Fed intervention again after so many days because it is stupid and grossly ineffecient to do otherwise on a state by state basis

"THAT is abdicating responsibility. "

That is accepting responsibility and keeping your word - two concepts apparently utterly unknown among fundamentalist conservatives

HALD
But I do like the MRAP thing thrown in there but we know why Bush didnt want to pass a bill that had how much PORK in it. 12,000 or so is what I read. But to blame Bush, No way you LIBS just tried to make it look like Bush didnt want to supply the Marines just to try and get your PORK PASSED.

Just like FISA also huh

Just read where one of or own was EMailing terrorist from his own ship and you LIBS scream about FREEDOM from FOREIGN WIRETAPS. Its funnny to read because you LIBS are always trying to get this country to Follow other country policies but dont want to monitor call from or to KNOWN TERRORIST location. ooops thats Bush fault also. You have US Congreessmen and woman telling a President of another country that he needs to step down and you LIBS always complain that Bush shouldnt be involved with other countries political agendas. I think it is pretty stupid for US congressmen and woman to tell another country what to do when ITS DO NOTHING DEM LED CONGRESS cannot even tell its own country what to do. WHAT A JOKE


chuck
".... I dont consider any part of AFGAHNISTAN or IRAQ Wars to have had anything to do with THE SCUDSTER. "

It was the military he built and equiped - it did well very well. It isn't your opinion it is fact

"You LIBS point that out to us everyday That Bush went it alone."

He did in Iraq

"You know the story that the 9/11 attacks which you blame on Bush had nothing to do with Clinton or the USS Cole bombing."

Blame on Bush???? I blame Osama you remember him?

"You know the things that you blame happened on Bushs shift. That actually where the CLINTOONS problems that they Passed on.,They could have taken action on but treated them like Police Actions instead of Military ones."

LMAO if Bush treated 9/11 as a police matter Afghanistan would most likely be stable and Osama dead or imprisoned

"I think its your DO NOTHING DEM LED CONGRESS you can blame for not wanting to supply/fund the WAR or the TROOPS "

Think all you want facts as are clearly different

"This is what we call personnal responsibilities that you LIBS fail to UNDERSTAND "

LMAO

Liberty First
"And that is exactly when the wheels started coming off the Bush Bus. They were exposed for the incompetents they were. "

You have exposed the weaknesses in his argument. Now he attempts to change the subject.

To bad for Hal PRIVATE INTERESTS are almost ALWAYS the first on the seen at disasters, even BEFORE KATRINA.

Weak Hal Weak

Liberty First
BRAVO!! on your posts, especially the 3:21 posts. I am afraid old hal is too well sealed into his box to see much beyond. Lucky Anyone reading both your and hals posts will see the glaring difference in ideologies.

Is forced generosity really generosity? or is it just stealing?

Liberty First
"Who was in New Orleans first, private interests or government?


Answer: Private interests.

Wal*Mart and Home Depot were both on the spot providing aid (or attempting to) *before* Local, State, or Federal government. "

And that is exactly when the wheels started coming off the Bush Bus. They were exposed for the incompetents they were.

Liberty First
"No. I am not my brother's keeper. It is not my responsibility to fix his problems or to take care of him."

Works for me.

"Everyone, like minded or not, being compelled by the Police Power of the State to give up their own resources to "help" others is not only inefficient it is inimical to cooperation; it fosters contempt and breeds a Me-vs-Them attitude."

You used and took and still take resources provided by society do you owe nothing for them?


"The difference between you and I, Hal, is that I promote the Freedom of Individuals to freely choose (or not) to cooperate with others to their mutual benefit. YOU promote the use of force to coerce it. "

Actually this is really chaos not freedom. This is exactly what exists in third world countries why reinvent those just go there?

HALD
Yea the 2 countries Im talking about is BOSNIA and SOMALIA which today ARE A bust, I dont consider any part of AFGAHNISTAN or IRAQ Wars to have had anything to do with THE SCUDSTER.

You LIBS point that out to us everyday That Bush went it alone. You know the story that the 9/11 attacks which you blame on Bush had nothing to do with Clinton or the USS Cole bombing. You know the things that you blame happened on Bushs shift. That actually where the CLINTOONS problems that they Passed on.,They could have taken action on but treated them like Police Actions instead of Military ones.

I think its your DO NOTHING DEM LED CONGRESS you can blame for not wanting to supply/fund the WAR or the TROOPS

This is what we call personnal responsibilities that you LIBS fail to UNDERSTAND


response to apoplectic
Yes, we are able to get second opinions at no cost. I have a rare and incurable cancer that is completely covered. I got a second opinion with no problem. Although it is indolent now, when I need treatment such as chemo there will be no cost to me. I have heard that rituximab, for example, costs $5,000 an infusion in the States. And often this is used as a maintenence therapy after the cancer becomes aggressive. (like once every 3 months!) Diseases such as this cost a great deal, which is why the Canadian system here in BC will have to either charge minimal co-payments eventually or raise the basic MSP fee.

To respond to others who have noted the importance of individual responsibility - I appreciate their view but I never would have dreamt that I would have a non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma with no known cause and no known cure. There was certainly nothing I could have done to prevent acquiring it.


Oh yeah! Hal...
[Hal] "It is called mutual assistance because it is grossly inefficient for every city to plan and equip for every eventuality. Heck in the Great San Francisco earthquake help came from Chicago and NY."

>>

Who was in New Orleans first, private interests or government?


Answer: Private interests.

Wal*Mart and Home Depot were both on the spot providing aid (or attempting to) *before* Local, State, or Federal government.

Libs, read: Hal & friends
...want to live a consequence-free life style at the expense of others.

They are the scourge of society with such a mindset.

Solo610
"No, the government did. Seeing as how they messed up so bad with that, why should we entrust them with anything else? Everytime the government touches something it becomes inefficient."

That was not always the case nor should it be

"Actually i feel like kids should be the only ones who get guaranteed health care. Kids should not have to suffer because of a mistake the parents may have made. "

They do housing neighborhood schools all manor of ways in the worst areas only the exceptional stand much of a chance

"Im military, so i don't have to gut it out with the civilian companies. I can imagine its frustrating, and downright unfair at times. The proposals on the table just take the suffering of some and spread it out to make it the suffering of all. "

Well being retired military and having owned businesses and worked in them it is incredibly frustrating especially the waste of people and money. You make a point what is needed is to address the problem and change it i.e. the old teach them how to fish ... think about it that is what the military does and does well

re: Hal Donahue (continued)
[Hal] "I guess the real question is are you your brothers keeper..."

>>

No. I am not my brother's keeper. It is not my responsibility to fix his problems or to take care of him.

If he *asks* for my help, however, I'll lend him whatever aid I am capable of giving. That is compassion, Hal. That is NOT being responsible for someone else.


On the other hand, if he *demands* my help... if he approaches me with an attitude that he is ENTITLED to my help... then I will refuse him outright.


-----


[Hal] "... or can you live much better working together with like minded folks."

>>

There is a distinct difference between cooperation and coercion. Like minded folks freely cooperating for their mutual benefit is highly efficient.

Everyone, like minded or not, being compelled by the Police Power of the State to give up their own resources to "help" others is not only inefficient it is inimical to cooperation; it fosters contempt and breeds a Me-vs-Them attitude.


The difference between you and I, Hal, is that I promote the Freedom of Individuals to freely choose (or not) to cooperate with others to their mutual benefit. YOU promote the use of force to coerce it.

re: Hal Donahue
[Me] "Because they've abdicated THEIR responsibility to the almighty Federal Government. But what do you expect?"

[Hal] "It is called mutual assistance because it is grossly inefficient for every city to plan and equip for every eventuality. Heck in the Great San Francisco earthquake help came from Chicago and NY."

>>

No, it is *NOT* called "mutual assistance", Hal.

Mutual assistance is something done FREELY... like, um... the Great San Francisco earthquake. In that case, other States lent aid and assistance.

And tell me, Hal, how much of that was States' assistance and how much of that was PRIVATE assistance from other states?

People helping other people of their own free will is neither an abdication nor an assumption of responsibility. ACCEPTING the assistance of others is not abdicating responsibility.

DEMANDING that OTHERS take care of your problems or EXPECTING others to take care of your problems *IS*.

More and more, states EXPECT the Federal Government, in the form of FEMA and disaster relief, to take care of those problems. More and more, states are failing to prepare for those conditions BECAUSE they expect the Federal Government to fix everything.

THAT is abdicating responsibility.


chuck
"Yea the difference is the REPS backed Clinton and his AIR BATTLES with 2 seperate countries and you LIBS have been battling with Bush to just retreat and surrender and stop everything that he tries and do for the MILITARY."

That is a lie again. The two countries I was talking about were Afghanistan and Iraq. Bush actually tried to stop Congress from giving the marines more MRAPs called them pork

"We are a Volunteer MILITARY and I have my son and 7 family members in Iraq and they tell me that they have no problem with Person Armor and equipment. But at the beginning of the War their equipment was not up to standard but is today.
and a statement from the TROOPS, No thanks to the LIBS. "

LMAO yeah right. We have volunteer police and fire also does that mean they are disposable? You have no idea what you are saying

Liberty First
You are wasting your time if you actually think that LIBS care about INDIVIDUAL or PERSONNAL RESPONSIBILITY.

You are really wasting your time ,like me if you think HALD cares about Personnal or Individual Reponsibilities either.

Next he will bring up the Children and Poor and Old people thing to try and make people feel bad.

God forbid a we hurt sombodies feelings.

But HITLERY can go on The Tube and cry and LIBS love her for she has feelings BWAAA BWAAA BWAAA



Liberty First
You make some great points amidst the emotional rhetoric of those who seek to abdicate their personal accountability for personal choices made.

Why should it not be that those who use the roads pay a toll? Those who have children pay for their education?

Why should it be that those who make choices to NOT participate in those actions have to pay?

You're spot on!

SteveL and religiouslib
"The voters don't care about costs. The voters care about ACCESS."

REALLY?!

Thats Funny, because the only way for govt to control the costs of "FREE" health care will be to REDUCE QUALITY and RATION the care, just like they do in Canada and England. OH BOY, can't wait to have to pull my own teeth and go to the vet for help.

WHAT WILL the Canadians do when they can not come to the U.S. anymore?! Especially the moms to be with twins or better?

One more thing Hal..
I read the article you linked to. This is not the same. We are talking about health care, not rights in general. If we were talking about gays vice immigrants there would not be a problem. Homosexuals on average make more money than their heterosexual peers. They pay taxes and are here legally. Whether or not homosexuality is immoral is for another time and place. I would not be opposed to insurance companies charging more for health care if, statistically, it is demonstrated that homosexuals take more risks and suffer more health related issues because of it. Again though, thats another subject all together.

Hal

"You created the problem by not enforcing the laws about hiring illegals. "

No, the government did. Seeing as how they messed up so bad with that, why should we entrust them with anything else? Everytime the government touches something it becomes inefficient.


"OK tell me your solution and does that apply to the kids also? Do you advocate reeducation camps?"

Actually i feel like kids should be the only ones who get guaranteed health care. Kids should not have to suffer because of a mistake the parents may have made. There would be cutoffs income wise, no millionaire parent needs free health care for their kid.

No i don't think this is all new, but lets not change for the sake of change. Im military, so i don't have to gut it out with the civilian companies. I can imagine its frustrating, and downright unfair at times. The proposals on the table just take the suffering of some and spread it out to make it the suffering of all.

re: Hal Donahue (continued)
[Me] "America is phailing *because*, more and more, Americans refuse to grow up and take responsibility for themselves and their own lives. They want, more and more, to be taken care of by the government. Health Care is just one more example of that. "

[Hal] "I disagree strongly and why are governments that provide those things growing stronger while we slowly decay?"

>>

Sorry Hal, those governments are *not* growing stronger. Russia collapsed. China is capitalizing. Outside of the tourist areas and the elites' estates, Cuba has been relegated to near third-world conditions. France is suffering from rampant unemployment and a "slow" economy.

Yet, generally speaking, Americans enjoy a greater standard of living than most any other country. "Poor" Americans enjoy *more* space and *more* amenities than the average MIDDLE CLASS Europeans.

re: Hal Donahue (continued)
[Me] "For additional examples of abdicating individual responsibility,....The Government will take care of it."

[Hal] "Actually that is a contract we all agreed to accept and now, right and left, trying to renege on."

>>

Really? I don't remember signing any such contract. Where is it filed? I'd like a notarized copy, please!

No, Hal, I *NEVER* agreed to abdicate *MY* Individual Responsibility and I certainly *NEVER* agreed to accept responsibility for *YOU*. And I have *NEVER* expected ANYONE ELSE to take responsibility for me or my family either.


re: Hal Donahue (continued)
[Me] "On highways and the military, no. Those are *not* factors of Individual Responsibility."

[Hal] "They are still falling apart what does that mean?"

>>

It doesn't matter.

Pay attention. I am/was discussing Individuals abdicating their INDIVIDUAL Responsibility. Highways and the military ARE NOT functions of INDIVIDUAL Responsibility or authority. Therefore, those examples are off-topic and irrelevant.

Healthcare Mythteries
If healthcare in the US is so lousy then explain why we have a problem with people living so much longer than just 20 year ago. In fact the fastest growing age group in the US is 100 and above.

re: Hal Donahue
[Me] "What part of 'INDIVIDUAL Responsibility' don't you understand? Yes, Americans 'learned' that they're *not* INDIVIDUALLY responsible for providing for their OWN children's education. And look what that's gotten us; a shoddy Government Education system."

[Hal] "So that is why Johnny can't read? No one is responsible for teaching him? Thank goodness the greatest generation didn't feel that way."

>>

Hal, do you suffer from a reading comprehension disorder?

I NEVER wrote or implied that no one is responsible for teaching Johnny to read. Rather, I berated Americans for ABDICATING their Individual Responsibility for providing for their OWN children's education.

They've been "taught" by decades of Nanny State interference that it is NOT their responsibility. So they happily surrender it to the Government.

Solo610
"...Naturally, the next liberal solution will be to make them all citizens so the government can collect more taxes to pay for the bigger load health care is going to have to carry. "

You created the problem by not enforcing the laws about hiring illegals.

"How about people, like a certain relative of mine, who are just plain lazy and won't work? They blow their money on booze and drugs, all the while knowing that someone will foot the bill should something happen. What should the government do?"

OK tell me your solution and does that apply to the kids also? Do you advocate reeducation camps?

" Hal? Someone else? Whats that you say? Raise taxes for those of us who get up in the morning and go to work? And so the circle of stupidity goes on and on... "

You think this is all new? http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18725 185&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=613224&rfi=6

Disagree
"we must get away from having the profit motive exclusively drive the health care industry.

One's ability to be free from debilitating disease ought not to be simply a matter of one's pocketbook."

Profit driven ANYTHING is what drives markets and whether or not something will be successful. If the item provides the desired outcome then it works, if it doesn't, then revenues fall, companies re-evaluate and thus change occurs.

Correlation between one's pocketbook and disease has no relation.

You are responsible to take care of yourself and prepare for life's unexpected situations as best you can - that's what being response-able is all about.

If you can't afford insurance that is a self-inflicted liability created by choices for other priorities in your life.

AudiR10
Excellent points from first-hand experience. Exactly the kind of stuff that libs will run from and refuse to address directly.

Shows their colors.

Thanks.

HALD
Yea the difference is the REPS backed Clinton and his AIR BATTLES with 2 seperate countries and you LIBS have been battling with Bush to just retreat and surrender and stop everything that he tries and do for the MILITARY.

The vehicles were still stockpiled in Motorpools while Clintoon fought those 2 battles mainly from the AIR. We arent just fighting from the Air we are mainly on the ground in IRAQ. I know this for I was responsible for trying to figure out what to do with Vehicles to send to BOSNIA from my unit that didnt have PARTS. Guess what we did,we had top break down other vehicles to make parts for the ones we could send. Please dont try and tell me that REPS were responsible for Vehicles not having parts for I know better. It happened to my unit and thats the bottom line. CLINTON S'cked at running the Military.

By the way what happened to Bosnia, you know one of Clintons pride and joys. Looks like he didnt take care of business over their like his boys thought. SERBS still hate Clinton for them doing what we today are doing. Fighting MUSLIMS and their LAWS.

We are a Volunteer MILITARY and I have my son and 7 family members in Iraq and they tell me that they have no problem with Person Armor and equipment. But at the beginning of the War their equipment was not up to standard but is today.
and a statement from the TROOPS, No thanks to the LIBS.

Hal
"My wife works in a clinic they send patients to the ER when something can be seriously wrong and time or special equipment matter."

How often might there be something seriously wrong? They didn't even examine her before sending her to the emergency room. It could have been something as simple as a cramp or a gas bubble. You cannot tell me that fear of litigation didn't factor into that. They even told me as much another time when we took two of my children there to get checked out after an auto accident. They were a little banged up but didn't appear to have any serious injuries. We took them to get them checked out just to be safe. They basically said it was too big a liability risk and said to take them to the emergency room.

SteveL and religiouslib
"The voters don't care about costs. The voters care about ACCESS."

If you think Canadians have access, I invite you to come to Toronto on any random spring or summer weekend and sit in any emergency room of your choice. Imagine the post office lines at noon during December of any year. Now imagine yourself at the end of that line with a baby who has a high fever and convulsions. For thirteen hours.

And as for the number of doctor visits "poor Canadians" can access, it took me (not a poor Canadian but a middle class American living in Canada) SIX YEARS to find a family doctor that was taking new patients! And that only occurred because my dangerously high blood pressure was caught by a routine screening at work and a colleague got me in to see her family doctor who managed to work me in. When I suddenly went partially blind in one eye, the Canadian ER told me that the treatment I needed to stop the progress of this disaster WAS NOT AVAILABLE AT ALL IN CANADA. I had to go to Memphis and pay cash, to get it as day surgery.

Yes, people want "access". They are just like the little brat I saw at Christmas screaming rolling on the floor of the toy store because she wanted "access" to boxes of toys.

Liberty First
"Because they've abdicated THEIR responsibility to the almighty Federal Government. But what do you expect?"

It is called mutual assistance because it is grossly inefficient for every city to plan and equip for every eventuality. Heck in the Great San Francisco earthquake help came from Chicago and NY. I guess the real question is are you your brothers keeper or can you live much better working together with like minded folks

"The Federal Government has been working diligently for over a century to undermine and take over the responsibility and authority of the States. "

Actually the hardest since the civil war was an outgrowth od states trying to continue segration using federal aid.

No one has mentioned
the flood of immigrants we will see if UHC was started here. Yes, illegals already use emergency facilities. Imagine if they could go to the hospital for every ache and pain they had. How will things be then? They are not paying taxes, and they are imposing a bigger burden on the health care system. Naturally, the next liberal solution will be to make them all citizens so the government can collect more taxes to pay for the bigger load health care is going to have to carry. How about people, like a certain relative of mine, who are just plain lazy and won't work? They blow their money on booze and drugs, all the while knowing that someone will foot the bill should something happen. What should the government do? Hal? Someone else? Whats that you say? Raise taxes for those of us who get up in the morning and go to work? And so the circle of stupidity goes on and on...

apoplectic
"No, and not only that...When the discussion of tort reform comes up, these costs are not even considered. It is driving up the costs tremendously. "

My wife works in a clinic they send patients to the ER when something can be seriously wrong and time or special equipment matter. As a careprovider she seldom considers lawyers in treating patients. I will say it again Docs refuse to clean their own house and tolerate bad docs, insurance companies refuse to take risk (their job description) and lawyers police the system relentlessly - every part adds costs and cuts down efficiency - a pox on all their houses

Ravenview
Do you have a choice in physicians? If you do not like a diagnosis, can you seek a second or third opinion? Is that covered?

Liberty First
"What part of "INDIVIDUAL Responsibility" don't you understand? Yes, Americans "learned" that they're *not* INDIVIDUALLY responsible for providing for their OWN children's education. And look what that's gotten us; a shoddy Government Education system."

So that is why Johnny can't read? No one is responsible for teaching him? Thank goodness the greatest generation didn't feel that way.

"On highways and the military, no. Those are *not* factors of Individual Responsibility. "

They are still falling apart what does that mean?

"For additional examples of abdicating individual responsibility,....The Government will take care of it."

Actually that is a contract we all agreed to accept and now, right and left, trying to renege on.

"Or Section 8, HUD housing, and other housing scams. (*SOME*) Americans have "learned" that they are NOT responsible for providing for THEIR OWN dwellings..."

Come to a nice second world area like San Paulo is this what you want shanty towns spreading crime and disease? Completely cut off from society they owe it nothing.

"Or Food Stamps. (*SOME*) Americans have "learned" that they are NOT responsible for providing for THEIR OWN sustenance..."

Hmmm food stamps are more an ag welfare program try and cut them out and hear them roar.

"America is phailing *because*, more and more, Americans refuse to grow up and take responsibility for themselves and their own lives. They want, more and more, to be taken care of by the government. Health Care is just one more example of that. "

I disagree strongly and why are governments that provide those things growing stronger while we slowly decay?

re: religiouslib
religiouslib wrote:

"... but after 9/11 and katrina the rest of the country has realized there are situations where local and state governments cannot handle."

>>

Now, be honest. What we saw is that local and state governments *currently* cannot handle those kinds of situations.

Why not?

Because they've abdicated THEIR responsibility to the almighty Federal Government. But what do you expect?

The Federal Government has been working diligently for over a century to undermine and take over the responsibility and authority of the States.

Like individuals -- and, gee, why not!? after all, local government is made up of individuals -- State and local governments are abdicating Responsibility, begging to be cared for by some benevolent (hopefully) nanny.

I mean, c'mon. How many of the current crop of presidential hopefuls have mentioned anything about Freedom or Individual Responsibility? how many are promising to "take care" of us by providing health care or creating more jobs?

Hal
"No Doc's in a box in your area? I am not critising your actions because I know about kids and US medicine"

No, and not only that, if someone is truly ill or injured, due to fear of litigation, the doctors and urgent care facilities will not treat them. Prime example, my wife went to the urgent care facility with a pain in her side. They turned her away and told her to go to the emergency room. When the discussion of tort reform comes up, these costs are not even considered. It is driving up the costs tremendously.

chuck
"...Yea and you can thank BILL(THE SCUD MEISTER) CLINTOON for the way the Military was gutted when he cut the Defecit in half on the backs of the MILITARY, is that the way you see it. BILLY BOB did use it up and didnt maintain, replace or repair it, he totally got rid of it."

Well besides being coimpletelly untrue let's look at the facts. Clinton's military successfully comquered two major countries in less than 18 months with few casualities on either side - major success and clear evidence that they were ready. Bush desired to fight two wars and then did not build a military to meet that task. He has relied on a military not designed for that task.

"I recall vehicles sitting in the Motor Pool without parts to maintain,repair or replace them because your BUDDY BILLY BOB didnt think we needed a Military because like all LIBS they think the MILITARY is the problem not the solution, I can see patient waiting for the same things if LIBS get their way."

read above. The military is seldom the solution. Wars start because countries screwed up plain and simple. It is your sorry side that has hurt this military far more than any liberal could conceive of. Let me ask you this, why isn't the military any larger and why are the units not in Iraq not combat ready



fact challenged conservatives
no matter how many facts are given to some conservatives they continue to mimic the dogma from the past.

its like the old reagan slogan "government is not the soulution it is the problem".

there is a logical contradiction in that statement.

why should anyone vote for conservatives to run the government when they only think the government is a problem.

bush and the 12 years of republican congress proved that.

because conservatives hate government they are incompetent when it comes to running it.

now this philosophy sounded good through the 80's and 90's but after 9/11 and katrina the rest of the country has realized there are situations where local and state governments cannot handle .




foggy brings up another excellent point
How many recent medical breakthroughs or treatments can be attributed to either Canada or Cuba?

apoplectic
"I am not (I haven't been to an emergency room for myself in almost 20 years)..... not getting sick between 9:00 and 5:00 Monday through Friday during doctor office hours "

Understand about kids interestingly when my kids were in the UK the Doctor came when we called to the house (30 yrs ago) and last month when we were in Buenos Aires the doctor came at 8 PM to look at my grandchild'd throat. The ER is an extremely costly place to take a child not to mention highly dangerous to the child because of infection. No Doc's in a box in your area? I am not critising your actions because I know about kids and US medicine

HALD
HALD STATES, Just like conservatives, use it up dont maintain, replace or repair it. I caught how you had to throw the MILITARY into this category

Yea and you can thank BILL(THE SCUD MEISTER) CLINTOON for the way the Military was gutted when he cut the Defecit in half on the backs of the MILITARY, is that the way you see it. BILLY BOB did use it up and didnt maintain, replace or repair it, he totally got rid of it.

I recall vehicles sitting in the Motor Pool without parts to maintain,repair or replace them because your BUDDY BILLY BOB didnt think we needed a Military because like all LIBS they think the MILITARY is the problem not the solution, I can see patient waiting for the same things if LIBS get their way.

Wow I can see LIBS running the FREE HEALTH CARE like they ran the MILITARY when the LIBS where in Charge. First they would want you to RETREAT and Surrender all your personal belongings for it might get in their way. Ooops LIBERAL Judges are already doing that can you see them in Charge of Health Care. I can see it now

Mr and MRS ???? can you come with us you forgot your FREE HEALTH CARE appointment and we are going to take it away from you or make you pay more taxes to get it back. Also you are obese and we wont treat you until you are not. Now let us put you on a FATBOY program or lose your HEALTH CARE. Its all coming just like SOCIALISM.

Canadian Health Care
We live in Beautiful British Columbia in a small community about 100 miles North of Vancouver. Our health care and access to immediate care has been wonderful. Yes, our taxes are high, but our Medical Service Plan costs my husband and me approximately C$1200/year. Dental and eyecare is not included. Drugs are covered for those over 65 after a percentage of annual income has been expended for drugs. All surgeries, hospital costs etc. are covered completely as are visits to our family physician.

Each province has their own separate health care program. I know that in Ontario it is AWFUL! But here it is good.

Nonetheless the costs are rising because of our aging population - just as in the states. And something will have to be done here as well. Some provinces are looking into allowing private health care to exist.

So although I read negative statements about the Canadian health care system,you should know that it is not a monolith.

re: Hal Donahue (continued)
Hal Donahue wrote:

"... That is what you conservatives are selling isn't it? Use it up and don't maintain, replace or repair it."

>>

Huh?

*I* have never suggested any such thing. If you want to troll someone, at least have the integrity to pick something they've written or communicated rather than lumping them in with some preconceived stereotype and/or making false inferences and gross assumptions.

*I* am selling a return to Individual Responsibility -- meaning that it is YOUR responsibility to take care of "it" -- AND Individual Accountability -- meaning that if YOU "use it up and don't maintain, replace or repair it", then tough t1tt1es, you don't get to take MINE because YOU were irresponsible.

re: Hal Donahue
Hal Donahue wrote:

"Liberty First
"'Just wait until Americans realize (/sarcasm) that they're not responsible for maintaining their own vehicles and property...'

"You mean like we did with highways, schools and now even the military?..."

>>

What part of "INDIVIDUAL Responsibility" don't you understand? Yes, Americans "learned" that they're *not* INDIVIDUALLY responsible for providing for their OWN children's education. And look what that's gotten us; a shoddy Government Education system.

On highways and the military, no. Those are *not* factors of Individual Responsibility.

For additional examples of abdicating individual responsibility, let's look at Social Security. (*SOME*) Americans "learned" that they are no longer responsible for planning for THEIR OWN, inividual retirements. The Government will take care of it.

Or Section 8, HUD housing, and other housing scams. (*SOME*) Americans have "learned" that they are NOT responsible for providing for THEIR OWN dwellings...

Or Food Stamps. (*SOME*) Americans have "learned" that they are NOT responsible for providing for THEIR OWN sustenance...

Just to name a few.



America is phailing *because*, more and more, Americans refuse to grow up and take responsibility for themselves and their own lives. They want, more and more, to be taken care of by the government. Health Care is just one more example of that.

Infant Mortality
The most TRUMPED UP statistic perhaps ever loosed on a naive public.

The left loves to trumpet the infant mortality numbers as proof that the US has inferior healthcare. What is absolutely, almost religiously (if I can use the term!), ignored by them is all the other factors unique to America that you typically won't find in other countries.

Freedom is actually number one here. We have the freedom to choose how we will live here, and that includes allowing totally drunken or drugged out moms to have kids. Oh sure, Child Protective Services will rush in to take (live) children away when these moms are discovered, but how do you stop drunks and druggies from having babies in the first place? You don't. At least not in a free country, you don't. Illegitimacy should be factored in here as well. Big factor in the US, not so much elsewhere.

And then there is the medical definition of what constitutes a live birth. How long do they breathe? Different rules here in the US, vs those of other countries. Add in initial weight of the infant to decide if it's viable or not, and you've got significant factors affecting these stats that the left holds oh-so-dear. But address these differences?? Surely you jest.

Just more smoke and mirrors from the left. Our system broken? I don't think so. In need of some adjustments. Absolutely. But, uh, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The Republican Party
The Canadian example is right next door and easily researched. But NO ONE in the Republican party is giving speeches, issuing press releases, organizing meetings and action committees, or doing ANYTHING with the goal of saving the best health care system in the world.

The "debate" over whether to change to socialized medicine won't last long if only one side shows up.

The Republican Party seems adept at dreaming up and sending me many varied forms of the fundraising letter. Maybe a Conservative Party would be adept at fighting for the American system that has brought so many modern advantages to the world.

Seems to me that it’s time to have another meeting in Ripon, Wisconsin.


Hal
"Why are you even at the emergency room for a routine medical visit?"

I am not (I haven't been to an emergency room for myself in almost 20 years). I do however have five kids. Anyone with children can tell you that you err on the side of caution when a child is quite visibly ill. They are just not that good at telling you how sick they really are and children have a bad habit of not getting sick between 9:00 and 5:00 Monday through Friday during doctor office hours

I'm still trying to figure out...
why low income folks are going to the doctor 6.7 times on average a year. I go once a year for a complete physical. I am 47, work out everyday and in general take very good care of myself. I have a 53 year old husband and it is the same thing with him. So why are they going so often? That's right they are not paying for it, we are. When people perceive something as free they will use it, regardless if they need to or not.

I work with people that as soon as they get the sniffles they are heading off to the doctor's offoce . If they had to pay more than just the $20.00 co-pay they would think twice about heading to the doctor anytime they did not feel 100 percent.

Math Example
So, between two different insurance companies, the doctor has raised his price a total of $25 to make sure that he takes home enough money to stay in business (and in a home), but...

Filing with the insurance takes time and effort. Someone's got to fill out the paperwork, keeping track of all the different rules for every insurer, and hassle with the insurance companies. The doctor doesn't have enough hours to do it himself, so he hires a larger office staff.

By doing so, his labor costs go up. To cover his rising labor costs he has to raise the prices he charges for his services...


Other factors notwithstanding (eg: rampant litigation, government mandates, etcetera), this kind of insurance "negotiation" is a direct contributor to rampant, *artificial* inflation of health care prices.

More Math
Now, that doctor is doing just fine. He's raised his prices 20% in order to make sure he pockets enough money to remain solvent.

However, along comes *another* insurance company. They "agree" to a $20 co-pay and 75% of the balance.

Remember, he needs to pocket $100. He's already raised his price to $120 in order to make sure he gets enough out of the first insurance company.

The second insurance company's customers will pay $20 out of their pocket, leaving $100 for the insurer to pay. But they'll only cover 75%. 75% of $100 is $75, plus the $20 co-pay... And the doctor pockets a grand total of $95.

To make sure that he takes home enough money, *now*, he raises his price again to $125.

The patients with Insurance B will pay $20 in co-pay and Insurance B will 75% of the remaining balance of $105, which is $78.75. The doctor takes home $98.75.

However, patients with Insurance A will pay $25 co-payments and their insurance will cover 80% of the balance. Through Insurance A, the doctor takes home $105.00.

Between the two insurance providers, the doctor makes an average of $101.875 for that $100 test.

mandates are good, sometimes
It's unfortunate the author describes Chiropractic care as an unnecessary mandated add-on. A quick review of the research shows that patients who regularly use chiropractic have much lower overall health care costs because they do not go to medical doctors as often, take medications (and all the secondary negative side-effects and costs to treat them), or have as many surgeries.

Answer to Math Question
The doctor, naturally, has to raise the price that he charges.

To ensure that he breaks even *and* earns some profit, the doctor raises his price to $120. Remember, the *needs* $90 to break even and $100 to make a living.

So, now, for a $120 visit the patient will pay $25 out of their own pocket (co-pay) leaving a balance of $95. The insurance will pay 80% of that $95, or $76. The doctor will now earn $101.

By raising the price of his $100 test by 20% he ensures that he gets the money he needs to remain in business.

Liberty First
"Just wait until Americans realize (/sarcasm) that they're not responsible for maintaining their own vehicles and property..."

You mean like we did with highways, schools and now even the military? That is what you conservatives are selling isn't it? Use it up and don't maintain, replace or repair it.

Math Question
Let's do some math. We'll use simple numbers for illustration.

Say, for instance, that a particular test costs a doctor $90 in labor and materials to perform. To just break even he's got to charge $90. To earn some money though -- 'cause he's got his own bills to pay -- he charges $100.

Now, along comes an insurance provider. The insurance provider negotiates a $25 co-pay and agrees to pay 80% of the balance.

Now, for the $100 visit, the patient pays $25 leaving a balance of $75. The insurance company will only pay 80%, or $60. All told the doctor will receive $85 in compensation.

To break even on labor and materials, he must pocket $90. But under the insurance company's "agreement" he won't even break even.

What's he to do?

Individual Responsibility
The problem with the condition of health care in America *starts* with the abdication of Individual Responsibility. Americans have been indoctrinated to believe that they have NO individual responsibility, particularly for providing for their own health care.

Generally speaking, there are no Health/Medical Insurance policies in America. Rather, we have grossly misnamed Health/Medical Payment Plans that we use and expect to pay for every little bit of our health care -- every minor sniffle, scratch, prescription, etcetera.

If we used automobile insurance or homeowners' insurance the same way -- to pay for every little piece of regular maintenance or minor repair -- the price for coverage for those would skyrocket as well!

Just wait until Americans realize (/sarcasm) that they're not responsible for maintaining their own vehicles and property...

HALD
I paid those premiums with my body for 22 yrs but I still pay insurance even though it is low for me and my Family, I have TRI-CARE PLUS but still pay MEDICAL and need a referral if I have to use the Public Health Care System. I dont get to use the VA Medical Facilities because Im within the 50 Mile radius of a Military Base and I make to much, not enough disablility

Dont let no one fool you about the Medfical Facilities on bases if you are a retired Veteran
its almost like being treated in Canada, it takes awhile to get an appointment and God forbid if your Family Practioner is on assignment to IRAQ or Afghanistan.

But I still say that we do not need the Government telling everyone how,when amd where you can be treated, as an American Citzizen I believe that is should be of my making who my Physician ought to be. But the Government still assigns me a Family Physician if I like him or not. I dont get a choice and thats what you want for people.

The main Question I have if it is going to be ran like a Military/Government Facility which today you cannot sue if you are an active soldier
or on Military Medical, then how many people will it take before they want to sue the doctors and our Medical care is corrupted by LAWYERS like it is today. Do you think that the Medical field will deteriate because almost everything that the government gets their hands onto goes to SH'T.

Just think of the VA's that will to be shut down because of Doctors not wanting to treat Patient if they are always handcuffed by the Government and we know that this can become true.

Can you see the battle now, People going to Government Facilities for ABORTIONS this will be a battle if that occurs for sure.



wiseone
"Liberals, RINO weenies, and self-serving fools like HalD read this and then argue we need national helth care because 'most' Canadians like their system, or because Americans aren't concerned about cost, only access (Americans like you, Hal, aren't concerned about cost because you expect the rest of us to pay for your health care on demand)."

See here you go again. You fail to realise it is about competence and cost. What we have not only doesn't work it costs far too much. Plain and simple. Your rant never mentioned that a national healthcare program functions very well many places but you only wanted to mention communist countries. Healthcare is similar to highways and electricity much better if provided by a system. Oh yes I do certainly expect you to pay for my health care on demand - that is part of the deal I made with the government.

mlund
"The biggest problem is that Americans these days DO NOT make contingency plans. We live above our means and have little to no savings to cover expenses should our paycheck-to-paycheck plan go awry."

Or is it they don't have either the education or resources to do so?

"That's not the government's fault. That's my own damn fault as an individual. If that costs me my house, my car, or my life its MY FAULT."

Ahhh but see you will then not quietly starve to death. You might even steal a loaf of bread and become a ward of the state prison system. Then their is the problem of your family they did nothing wrong or did they? Where do we put you folks while you are starving? Then who pays to clean up the litter when you die? Like it or not you are part of the herd

No common sense
What part of "Canadians pay more for their health care and get less" do people not understand?

Liberals, RINO weenies, and self-serving fools like HalD read this and then argue we need national helth care because 'most' Canadians like their system, or because Americans aren't concerned about cost, only access (Americans like you, Hal, aren't concerned about cost because you expect the rest of us to pay for your health care on demand).

You can take the boy out of the woods but you can't the woods out of the boy. And you can take health care out of the private sector but you can't take the laws of economics out of health care. If you invoke price controls you will get shortages. If you impose a monopoly without price controls you will get gouging.

Every liberal since before the term was invented to describe them has sought to control some market through the force of government, and every time it is tried the result is exactly what I started this comment with, the public ... pay[ing] more for their health care and get[ting] less."

This policy was tried by the Pilgrims as their base economy and it led to starvation. It was tried by Russia and China in the 20th century and the result was 100 million state-sponsored civilian deaths.

Cuba tried it and they can't even make good cigars anymore.

The Khmer Rouge tried it in Vietnam and it resulted in 4 million dead and/or permanently displaced.

Today Vietnam and North Korea are two islands of desperation and poverty in an otherwise generally prosperous SE Asia.

It's bad enough that libs and mods want to apply a 20th century 'solution' to a 21st century problem. But this 'solution' didn't even solve anything in the 20th century. To the contrary, it was, time after time, a disaster of biblical proportions.

But don't let that stop you geniuses. Go for it.

truthspotlight
"No matter how many articles about Canadian healthcare, or healthcare from other socialized nations are written, folks like Hal and other blind libs will still scream their same old tired mantra about the US needing universal healthcare."

Lack of healthcare is a major weakness in the US economy and hurts our ability to compete

"READ the postings from those who actually LIVE in Canada. Indeed, even DOCTORS in Canada, who tell their tales whenever opportunities like this appear."

Who say they are Canadians. RL's links have more credibility. Also, having lived and worked throughout Western Europe I know the strengths and weaknesses.

"Doesn't matter. "Our system is broken." "Infant mortality." "Bottom of the industrialized world." And more such tripe is heard from these blind lefties. Because ANYTHING done in other countries MUST be better than what we in the US do, right?"

Not at all but all above are facts. Not opinion don't you get that? Most Docs I know will tell you our system is broke

"Why are these Canadians writing these postings about their abysmal healthcare system? WHY do their cars inhabit the parking lots of US medical centers along the border states??"

Maybe the same reasons US folks go to Mexico and Argentina? elective treatment. I don't know the Canadian system at all I do know the European systems and they work for the most part

"Sidebar -- is our US healthcare system broken? No; but yes, it could use some strategic improvement. But please, DON'T give us what Canada's got!!! If you can read, you can see why not. If you're a blind leftie, you'll just continue to mindlessly whine for socialized "free" (yeah, right) medicine. "

it is BROKE

Some folks will never see it
In fact, they REFUSE.

No matter how many articles about Canadian healthcare, or healthcare from other socialized nations are written, folks like Hal and other blind libs will still scream their same old tired mantra about the US needing universal healthcare.

READ the postings from those who actually LIVE in Canada. Indeed, even DOCTORS in Canada, who tell their tales whenever opportunities like this appear.

Doesn't matter. "Our system is broken." "Infant mortality." "Bottom of the industrialized world." And more such tripe is heard from these blind lefties. Because ANYTHING done in other countries MUST be better than what we in the US do, right?

Why are these Canadians writing these postings about their abysmal healthcare system? WHY do their cars inhabit the parking lots of US medical centers along the border states??

That's OK, though, leftists - er- statists. You just keep on ignoring the very evidence that would prove you wrong.

Sidebar -- is our US healthcare system broken? No; but yes, it could use some strategic improvement. But please, DON'T give us what Canada's got!!! If you can read, you can see why not. If you're a blind leftie, you'll just continue to mindlessly whine for socialized "free" (yeah, right) medicine.

apoplectic/dbz77
"Really? Do you generally feel the care you get at the emergency room was worth the wait? I sure don't. "

Why are you even at the emergency room for a routine medical visit?

chuck
"So if you are a patient of Walter Reed then how much Medical Insurance do you pay for? "

None there I paid those premiums with my body for 20 years.

chuck
"So if you are a patient of Walter Reed then how much Medical Insurance do you pay for? "

None there I paid those premiums with my body for 20 years.

religiouslib
"Statistics Canada reported Monday that most of those who were not happy were upset about the length of time it took to see a specialist, or to have non-emergency surgery."

Interesting study, but that 20% number should be the shocker. If 20% complained about seeing a specialist or getting non-emergency surgery then what percentage of the people who needed to see a specialist or needed non-emergency surgery complained about it? I can guarantee that 100% of the people do not need a specialist or surgery. The missing information there is what percentage of those surveyed needed those medical services? I'll bet it is far less than 50%, which would mean 20% of the whole is a glaring dissatisfaction number.

The biggest problem is ...
The biggest problem is that Americans these days DO NOT make contingency plans. We live above our means and have little to no savings to cover expenses should our paycheck-to-paycheck plan go awry.

That's not the government's fault. That's my own damn fault as an individual. If that costs me my house, my car, or my life its MY FAULT.

Of course, I'm technically a contractor. I don't get to collect Unemployment if someone decides I don't need to come into work on Monday. In theory, true employees do get that benefit - which means they DO have income to pay for health insurance during the transition between jobs. So the "lose your job and you're out of the insurance pool," is over-stated. There are problems like COBRA coverage that allow you to extend your insurance benefit past the point of employment.

This wouldn't even be an issue, however, if the insurance scheme wasn't being routed through the Employer and the Government in the first place. If you have independent insurance coverage then losing your job doesn't matter! The main reason people get insurance through their employers is due to the government's asinine scheme of tax incentives that are only for the employer, not the individual citizen.

Annul the stupid marriage of employers and health insurance plans. Allow people to buy long-term health insurance contracts like their do Life Insurance. Give them options for Term Health like they currently have as well as or Whole Health policies that operate under the same parameters as HSAs.

Finally, the government must let people who are deemed fit to be held responsible for their actions make bad choices and live or die by them. When someone refuses to take the necessary precautions to insure their own health and safety they must beseech the willing for Charity, not compel Entitlements from the citizenry at the point of the government's gun.

dbz77
"At least there would be fewer bankruptcies due to outstanding medical bills; that would be worth the wait"

Really? Do you generally feel the care you get at the emergency room was worth the wait? I sure don't.

dbz77
NEWSFLASH: Price controls RAISE prices

chuck
"Maybe you ought to be a Patient at Walter Reed with some of your comments."

I am a patient there, outpatient now, inpatient last year.

"You brought up the Remark that Bush was trying to get rid of Military and VA Medical not me but as usual another typical DISGRUNTED LIB."

They are trying to turn military medicine into one big HMO after some of the greatest successes in their history during the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. -- no good deed goes unpunished in the Bushie world

"If you are saying that the Va and Military Health Care are going away because they WORK that was your statement in earlier comments. So if they work so good why are you complaining"

I do not use VA but most who do praise it highly. I do US military medicine and I love it. I am complaining because as both a large and small business guy healthcare costs were major impediments to doing business in the US.

"So what would make you think that UNIVERSAL Heath Care could do what the VA and Military Medical Facilities couldnt do since you think they work so good. "

Strive to be as good maybe serve as a model

"I think you proved your own point that Big Government controlled Health Care will not work"

They fixed Walter Reed without a law suit and fixed it quickly thanks to MSM.


canadians happy with their healthcare
About 80 per cent of Canadians say they're satisfied with their level of access to the health care system.
Statistics Canada reported Monday that most of those who were not happy were upset about the length of time it took to see a specialist, or to have non-emergency surgery.

It's the first time Statistics Canada has taken a national snapshot of how Canadians feel about the health care system.





According to the report more than 88 per cent of Canadians have a regular family physician who, in most cases, is their first point of contact for routine health care.

The average waiting time to see a specialist or have non-urgent surgery is roughly one month.

here is the link

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/07/15/healthcare020715. html

apoplectic
i give you a survery that says 75% of canadians are satisfied and you simply ignore it.


Fewer Bankruptcies
"Of course it is, but what is the effect. Does anyone remember what price controls did for gasoline in the 70's? Imagine those lines at the pump being lines at the doctors office. Shortage of supply vs demand is always the inevitable result of price controls. It is cheaper so more people want it at the same time it doesn't make money so less people are providing it. Precisely what you have in Canada!!"
At least there would be fewer bankruptcies due to outstanding medical bills; that would be worth the wait.

HALD
So if you are a patient of Walter Reed then how much Medical Insurance do you pay for?

Laurie
Great idea, as long as there are restrictions as to how much hospitals can charge.

dbz77
"The purpose of price controls on health care is to make health care affordable"

Of course it is, but what is the effect. Does anyone remember what price controls did for gasoline in the 70's? Imagine those lines at the pump being lines at the doctors office. Shortage of supply vs demand is always the inevitable result of price controls. It is cheaper so more people want it at the same time it doesn't make money so less people are providing it. Precisely what you have in Canada!!

Stop the Moonbats
The purpose of price controls on health care is to make health care affordable.

Modmark
What about the person receiving the care paying for it? How absurd.

religiouslib
"it is strange
that some conservatives have convinced themselves that canadians hate their health care system."

What is really strange is that nobody personally knows anybody in Canada who is happy with their health care system. I, for one, am happy with my healthcare here in the good ole USA.


For Boutte
At the end of the day... And something MOST in the medical field either don't know, will not acknowledge or simply will not tell their CLIENTS (sources of revenue) that MOST OF THE MAJOR diseases are CAUSED by the lifestyle we live...meaning our level of exercise or lack thereof and the FOOD we eat.

Change that to a healthy level and the so-called health care system is out the revenue the healthy person no longer provides. Ergo the nationalized health care system, like our social security system is for those who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives and rely on government goons (who aren't any different than Mafia goons) to take from one group to subsidize another. The mob calls it PROTECTION money....at any rate as with medicare and medicade which now reaches across three generational lines to subsidize ONE (which paid practically NOTHING into it)...Social Security does the same thing and NOW along comes national health (insurance scams) where even the healthy and those who wouldn't otherwise participate or need the programs will be FORCED to participate to subsidize those who do not and won't take responsiblity and want the NANNY state to do it all for them. What remains is will there be garnishment? Will the be mandatory participation? Will there be manditory checkups? Will there be federally mandated behaviors? Bottom line? Where is that line going to be drawn....Isn't fear mongering, and catering to sloth, envy, fear, gluttony and the like a wonderful thing....but heaven forbid should anyone tell these sickos that MOST of their problems are self induced and just as Jesus stated to the physician so to is the cure....HEAL THYSELF.

And
And in this debate--can we also look at the NEED for health insurance at all? When did insurance become a neccessity, nay a mandatory NEED? How has the rise of the insurance company led to exploding health costs?

I pay the insurance company, the doctor pays the insurance companies, the hospital pays the insurance companies, the drug companies pay the insurance companies, the medical researcher pay the insurance companies, the government pays the insurance companies---and now they want the government to pay even more money to the insurance companies? Between the lawyers and the insurance companies how much actual money pays for care recieved, research, and medication production?

It can be argued that our collective quality of care is going to he** in an insurance and litigation bucket--but to correct the problem we only need a BIGGER insurance and litigation bucket!!?? Universal Healthcare--the biggest bucket in which to go to he**!

2 things would help US Health care
Just two things would vastly improve our healthcare system in the US.
1) Require proof of citizenship before being provided with government assistance. That goes for Hospitals, Clinics, Schools, AFDC, SCHIP etc...
2) Provide "tort reform" that would make court awards proportional to damage done by "negligence only". The key term would be NEGLIGENCE, not an honest mistake. You have to realize that allot of healt care cost in America is the add on "malpractice insurance" that all medical and legal professionals have to carry to keep themselves from being bankrupt by a society that continuously looks for something for nothing.
As an added bonus, allow insurance companies to deal across state lines to allow a larger pool of insurance premiums to draw from for pay-outs.

for Laurie
Laurie writes: "if I'm wrong, but didn't Romney's plan include penalties for anyone who couldn't afford to participate? To me that's the same as socialized medicine if people are forced to spend their own money. Many young healthy people choose to have no coverage and should have that option."

What you suggest would BANKRUPT the private insurers on which the Romney plan depends.

Romney realized what you do not: If you allow young healthy workers to opt out of the insurance pool, then the insurers will have a pool of mostly older, mostly chronically ill policyholders, whose insurance claims often exceed their premiums.

The only way to make a health care system work with private profit-making insurers is if you FORCE young healthy people (who file few claims) into the plan. Otherwise those insurers will not be able to keep their revenues exceeding their payouts.

it is strange
that some conservatives have convinced themselves that canadians hate their health care system.

they seeem to base this on anecdotal evidence.
if you do some actual research, you find this is not true.

* Americans with low incomes go to the doctor fewer times a year, an average of 6.7 visits, than do poor Canadians, 8.7. An income of less than $15,000 a year, adjusted for the difference between the United States and Canadian dollar, was used as the base. No comparison was made with Britain, where a significant number of those interviewed declined to disclose their incomes.

* Two-thirds of those surveyed in the United States who failed to obtain needed health care for financial reasons said they were covered by some kind of health insurance, suggesting that for many such policies were inadequate.

* Americans are significantly less satisfied with their last visit to a physician, compared with Canadians and the British. Only 54 percent of Americans said they were ''very satisfied'' with their most recent visit to a doctor, as against to 73 percent of the Canadians and 63 percent of the British.

here is the link

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE4DF133C F936A25751C0A96F948260

SteveL, Correct me
if I'm wrong, but didn't Romney's plan include penalties for anyone who couldn't afford to participate? To me that's the same as socialized medicine if people are forced to spend their own money. Many young healthy people choose to have no coverage and should have that option. These socialists need them to pay to cover the ones who make claims, so they mandate it!

for Shrinque
Shrinque writes: "That should answer all your questions. And destroy all your arguments."

NO. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Unemployed means no income.
No income means no income tax.
No income tax means your tax credits and tax deductions are zero. Hence there is NO BENEFIT to a laid-off worker from tax credits.

You haven't fixed the problem of the unemployed missing payments on their premiums and getting immediately dropped from the rolls.

You haven't fixed the problem of dropping individual policies for pre-existing conditions.

Let me repeat: The issue is how to INCREASE ACCESS--to expand the pool of coverage to individuals who the free market would consider unable to pay, or too high an insurance risk due to pre-existing conditions.

You keep focusing on how the free market can LOWER COSTS. But you haven't explained why there is a free market incentive to INCREASE ACCESS to those currently not qualified for insurance.


Hald
Maybe you ought to be a Patient at Walter Reed with some of your comments.

You brought up the Remark that Bush was trying to get rid of Military and VA Medical not me but as usual another typical DISGRUNTED LIB.

If you are saying that the Va and Military Health Care are going away because they WORK that was your statement in earlier comments. So if they work so good why are you complaining

So what would make you think that UNIVERSAL Heath Care could do what the VA and Military Medical Facilities couldnt do since you think they work so good.

I think you proved your own point that Big Government controlled Health Care will not work

WOBBIE bring me my syringe a need a FIX of free Health Care for ALL even ILLEGALS HALD


Hal Donahue, SteveL, SJ Doc
Hal Donahue and SteveL both make great points.

I could not care less whether their comments comport with any particular ideology or partisan viewpoint. Both comments have alot of validity.

Both comments contribute positively to this discussion.

SJ DOC, great quote from C.S. Lewis.

It perfectly describes the mindset of the morally uprighteous in having absolutely no angst or second thoughts in imposing their will on the rest of us.

for Hal Donohue
Hal Donohue writes: "Amen to that. They are doing the classic fundamentalist conservative two step: no program is perfect so have no program. "

The ultimate irony is this: As governor of Massachusetts where I live, Mitt Romney signed into law a state health care plan that is NOTHING like the Canadian plan. It is mostly free-market. Conservatives like the Weekly Standard praised it.

But because the GOP base is now so far to the right, Romney was forced to run away from his own health care plan to try to win the GOP nomination.

SteveL, Hald, and ModMark
I think you 3 need to read my post of 8:55 AM

That should answer all your questions. And destroy all your arguments.

chuck
"Please provide link that shows or states that Bush is trying to get rid of Military or VA helth Care."

LMAO look at its policies and procedures and budgeting.

"I work at a VA and I havent seen anything
come out about Bush dismantling Health Care."

Loyalty is a wonderful thing LOL. Do you deny that VA funding was not keeping up with demand? Do you deny thousands of fully eligible veterans are being denied earned care based on income? Where do you stand on fully funding VA? Get real and why doesn't it surprise me at all you are a government worker? Oh yes I am now an patient at Walter Reed in the interest of full disclosure.


Red herring
The GOP is not going to be able to use the Canadian example to attack the Democrat health care plans.

Canada's system is a single-payer system that monopolizes all health care under a single Government payer. That's NOT what either Hillary or Obama are proposing. In fact, if you examine the Hillary health care plan closely, it actually resembles Governor Romney's health care system we have here in Massachusetts much more than it resembles the Canadian system.

That is, like the Massachusetts plan signed into law by Romney, it continues private insurance for those who already have it, plus a mandate to buy insurance from the Government as the last resort if you can't get insurance elsewhere. And the Obama plan is similar.

How can the GOP attack this plan when it so closely resembles Romney's? What exactly is the biggest difference between the Hillary and Obama plans and the plan that Romney signed into law in Massachusetts?

HALD
Please provide link that shows or states that Bush is trying to get rid of Military or VA helth Care.

I work at a VA and I havent seen anything
come out about Bush dismantling Health Care.

Please show link


SteveL
"Republicans just don't get it
The voters don't care about costs. The voters care about ACCESS. "

Amen to that. They are doing the classic fundamentalist conservative two step: no program is perfect so have no program. It is exactly what happened with immigration they scream and carry on but actually do nothing

Republicans just don't get it
The voters don't care about costs. The voters care about ACCESS.

Mr. Wilson's "solution," to increase competition, does NOT solve the problem that gives the health care issue its edge: Losing your health insurance when you lose your job. Even if health insurance were made portable, the premiums for a family of four can easily cost over $12,000 per year. If you're unemployed, you're not going to be able to afford that.

There is no way to fix that problem without Government subsidy. Currently, the moment you miss two consecutive payments on your premiums due to inability to pay or even due to the bills getting lost in the mail, you are immediately dropped from the insurance pool. Been there, done that.

Beyond that, it may surprise folks here to learn that with individual coverage (as opposed to employer-provided coverage), the insurer is allowed to reject your application for a pre-existing condition. That means if you lose your job with an employer, and you already have a pre-existing condition, you may not be able to quality for individual coverage on your own at all. It's a trap that more and more American workers who get laid off are falling into.

I see no way to fix that without a Government mandate that insurers cannot reject your individual application for a pre-existing condition. I have two chronic illnesses and there is no free market incentive for an insurer to cover me. It is in their financial interest for me to die.

As governor of Massachusetts, Romney came up with a health care plan that was mostly free market. But it depends on a state mandate (you MUST buy insurance). Otherwise it wouldn't work. Without government mandates AND without government subsidies, you CANNOT keep laid-off workers covered.

apoplectic
Young, healthy Canadians love their NHS in the same way that young, healthy Americans love their HMO's.

dbz77
You're absolutely correct! Those price controls will keep them from losing their homes and businesses.

They'll all be dead.

Dumb Buzzard 77 writes
"People have lost homes and businesses due to rising health care costs. Price controls can put an end to that."

All that price controls will end is the existence of that which they seek regulate, ie: decent medical care.

dbz77, It's counterintuitive, but
price controls ALWAYS raise prices.

Big Daddy
"Socialized Medicine...Military-Style
Anyone who has been in the military has experienced socialized medicine. ....Fast Forward to Walter Reed this past year. This is what is awaiting the American sheeple if they want scoialized ("free") healthcare."

Ahhh see here we go again. First, military medicine has changed. Second, Walter Reed is a perfect example. First point, the care there never suffered and I am a frequent critic and second, while the government and VSOs failed the story still got out, heads rolled and changes were made. No. If you are in a civilian monopoly health market suck it up or get a lawyer. The reason the Bush Regime is trying to dismantle both the Military and the VA is they work.



Price Controls
People have lost homes and businesses due to rising health care costs.

Price controls can put an end to that.

Oh Canada!
Does anyone know anybody in Canada that is happy with their healthcare? I've yet to find one. Forget made up or irrelevant statistics, find me someone who needs medical care and actually likes the Canadian system.

Canadian Anchor abies w. US Citizenship
So Canada, via governmental control of her health system, is systematically sending women to the USA to give birth. Canada grants them dual citizenship.

"Anchor baby" is most often associated with Mexico. A pregnant foreigner gives birth in the US. That baby is given citizenship, giving the family an anchor in the USA.

90% of the Canadian population is spread within 50 miles of the US border. (If you look at a population density map, you'd think Canada was 3,000 mules long & 50 miles wide.)




Moonbat Medicine
Socialist/Communist Hal claims that Conservatives can't be fair and balanced ("They cannot do that. The facts trip up their fundamentalist conservative agenda."), yet the easiest way to tell when a Lib is lying is that their lips are moving.

My son has been complaining of elbow pain so on our first visit to our new PCP (I just changed insurance plans) she ordered us an MRI (we had already had x-rays done a couple of months before) and a visit to an Orthopedic Doctor to evaluate the scans. Four days later he was MRIed, six days later we were in the Orthopedic Doctor's office and he was operated on three weeks after that. Keep your "free" socialized medicine -- or anything else having to do with that anti-American way of life.

Health Care
Hell everyone on here has FREE Health Care if they want it.

Just do like the Illegals do, GO TO THE EMERGENCY RM noone is denied Heath Care at your local EMERGENCY RM. If you dont believe me just make a trip to your local Hospitals Emergency Rms one Night. You will be shocked.

Healthcare - The supply side
Most commentators on US healthcare focus on the demand side. Equally important is the constraint that various government and quasi-governments put on the supply side of healthcare. The most important is the National Cartel the American Medical Assn. It has a stranglehold on the supply of doctors. Such a cartel should be broken. The FDA also has a stranglehold on the supply of medicines. This corporatist agency should be de-fanged so that the supply of drugs can flourish.

Liberals & fascists can no more repeal the law of supply & demand than they can the law of gravity. They keep trying however.

HalD
Could you get me some ranks on the countries with universal healthcare? how about Canada and Cuba? I know Canadian healthcare is no where near ours.

Are you telling me we pay 43% of our income to healthcare Hal? really?

beyond the pale
I wrote that above in much fewers words...i would just like to say AMEN TO THAT!

The Gov't should get out
of health care and out of our wallets. If the market were allowed to function, costs would never have soared to the levels we see today and if this goes on there is no limit to what they will force us to pay.

What ever happened to self-reliance? Only twenty years ago, when my son was a baby, a person could still afford to pay for a doctor visit. Today w/out insurance it is a wild extravagance. The more the gov't gets involved, the more everything costs us all.

CKHustler
"I guess you ignored the fact above that we pay less then? typical."

Count all costs not just "healthcare" costs as in the state taxes going to medicaid as in every car comes with a 1500 healthcare bill. If you think we spend less then you disagree with almost any reputable economist

"Obviously universal healthcare does not work. Every country using it does not have the health system we do in America. "

Really by what standard? We rank anywhere from 30th to 170th in healthcare no where do we rank near first.

"The real problem with our system is lawsuits. If people weren't so greedy in suing for everything we wouldn't have such high premiums in insurance."

Nonsense that is only one part. Another major part are doctors who won't clean up their own house i.e. every doctor knows a Doctor they wouldn't take their worst enemy to and the next part are insurance companies that will not accept risk which is what they are paid to do. Nope a pox on all their houses. Let's fix this mess



Watch "Dead Meat" (2005)
--
Several years ago, directors Stuart Browning and Blaine Greenberk created a short film entitled "Dead Meat" about health care under the Canadian socialized medical system.

The film (in its entirety) is available online at:

http://onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/deadmeat.html

...and opens with the words "This film slaughters sacred cows."

Consider it the pre-emptive refutation of Michael Moore's "Sicko."




---------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

-- C.S. Lewis (1948)

Socialized Medicine...Military-Style
Anyone who has been in the military has experienced socialized medicine. Sitting at sick call for the day? Trauma care is excellent, but anything chronic...take two Motrin and call me in two weeks...

Fast Forward to Walter Reed this past year. This is what is awaiting the American sheeple if they want scoialized ("free") healthcare. As previously stated, the Gubmint will simply "take" your money from you (for your...I mean the "common" good) to fund this debacle.
Hurt your back...get on the list.

Got your arm partially amputated in a car accident...you're golden...get fixed up right away, but physical therapy...get on the list.
Got cancer? Well, our budget only allows you to have $X for treatment...once that's up? Here's a bottle of Viacadan...you know what to do...

Morons drive the debate.
I love how know-nothing morons talk about the "average life expectancy", and try to correlate that with the quality of health care.

Consider firstly that every nation has different standards in simply RECORDING "average life expectancy". Michael "I cannot tell a truth" Moore puked the flat out lie, for example, that Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the US. That is laughable on its face, and typical of the pro-Communist propaganda from the political left. Cuba doesn't even RECORD births and deaths in its slums, which constitute about 40% of the nation.

Secondly, even WERE it the truth that Canadians live longer, its reasons are obvious, and are NOT related to the quality of health care. We in the US live more dangerous lives. We don't eat very healthy, we participate more in more dangerous past times, and other factor outside of health care quality all negatively contribute to life expectancy.

The fact of the matter is that any time someone pukes the same old half truths about life expectancy as proof that our health care system is poor, you know for certain that person is utterly CLULESS on the subject.

Shrinque
I had to read it after you said that...hilarious article! Its very satirical which fits the issue well...all truths though

Good points--
I am not surprised that health care is a big issue this election cycle, it has been a relentless drumbeat for a few years now by politicians and media.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that the health care in the US is not as bad as they make it out to be. I doubt, also, that a huge socialist fix is needed. The aticles has good suggestions but I would like to add another--we need to get lawyers out of the hospital room!

John Edwards famously won millions for a family who blamed a doctor for their babies death. The science since has proved the doctor to have been free of guilt in the babies death. Have those millions (paid out by the insurance company) been paid back? How many times has this happened? How many millions have been paid out by insurance companies just to avoid going to court? How many doctors are out of business because they can no longer afford malpractice insurance? How many people use the threat of a law suit to embezzle money from the system?

I would sorely love to see the REAL numbers on that!! Lawyers are a blight on the system--the insurance companies are paying lawyer's fees, not doctor's fees, with our premiums.

Health Care in Canada
Do not let anyone tell the American people that socialized government medical plans work. Our system is not only ineffective, it is downright dangerous. The notion that it is free is also absurd. The taxes I pay to fund this program are outrageous. I could have a private HMO, get better care and have money left over. But, ofcourse here in Socialismville that is not permitted. I waited three months for a CT scan after severe abdominal pain that increased weekly. Solution, oxy-codone and sleeping pills. Yes, let's just mask the pain, maybe it will go away. Now I have another wait of six weeks to see a specialist for a consultation which I am told will take about five minutes and according to his receptionist, it will be another four to six weeks before surgery is performed, provided I am still alive. I contacted the highly regarded Roswell Cancer Institute in Buffalo N.Y. to get information about treatment there. Unfortunately they do not take Canadian patients through our health care system. If I had my own HMO, which I would prefer and could afford, I would have had all tests and surgery completed within a two week time frame. Do not believe any politician who tries to use this fairy tale of universal health care to gain votes in the election. It will be dangerous to your health and strain your already bursting entitlement budget. If it happens then welcome to the beginning of third world socialist status. By the way if anyone asks why I don't come to live in America if it's so great. Well it is great and I love America, unfortunately I am not from any of the impoverished (yet) countries of the third world that are on the list for emigration or I'd be there in a heartbeat. I know this is a little long-winded, but be careful what you wish for.

THE COST OF HEALTH CARE
could be greatly reduced by replacing the hundreds or thousands of taxes with a single proper tax for each level of government. This would remove all those taxes from the price paid for everything by everyone - including government. Imagine, medicine costing 1/3 less, insurance costing 1/3 less, doctors costing 1/3 less, medical school costing 1/3 less, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

CKHustler
I assume they're all over on Mike Adams' thread, whining that Doctor Adams is a homophobic misogynist.

btw
where are all the libs here to defend the most important issue of the election for them lol

HalD
I guess you ignored the fact above that we pay less then? typical.

Obviously universal healthcare does not work. Every country using it does not have the health system we do in America.

The real problem with our system is lawsuits. If people weren't so greedy in suing for everything we wouldn't have such high premiums in insurance. There are times the doctor does do something wrong and needs to apprehended but lawsuits are out of control in the US with people looking for the quick buck. If you want to solve insurance problems lower the amount a lawyer can take from those lawsuits and they won't want to represent people on pointless lawsuits.

Doc W
How true, how very true!

The best "reform" of the US healthcare (read: "health insurance") system, should be the simplest to implement: Grant the tax deduction for the cost of healt insurance to individuals and not just corporations! The insurance immediately becomes portable and the group rates would be available to any gang of 3 who wants to go together and insure their individual needs.

Once that is accomplished, and the free market is again restored to the business of Medicine, then other reforms would be obvious and easy: Make that tax deduction a tax credit. Make Medicare voluntary. Restore the tax deduction for physicians and other providers for providing charity care. Let Medicine be an American business, not a government entitlement.

Hald
So then we want to make another Health Care System that will fail especially if Hillery is willing to take it out of your pay reguardless if you need it or not.

My Brother -In-Law is from Canada and almost died before he got an MRI(3Month) waiting list
What did he do, He came to America and had his Surgery done, The doctor stated if he would have waited 3 Mon he would have died.

Now I dont know about you But I dont have a problem with the Health Care System im on.

It isnt the Health Care system that is dying its the Management of the Health Care System and how the Illegals are draining it DRY.

Same old same old....
Government intervention in the market causes problems, for which more government intervention is seen as the solution, which causes more problems. The vicious cycle continues until we get to socialism, or until a sufficiently disastrous collapse forces a change of course.

Folks
You don't seem to realise we are paying for our failed healthcare system now and paying a Lot more than Canadians

Boutte takes the bait
From Michael Moore hook, line and sucker.

I hate to break it to you but Americans are not healthier overall because we are FAT AND LAZY.

The number one health plight of the poor is obesity, and the American diet is laden with cholesterol, fat and plenty of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Health care has nothing to do with it.

The Feds are so good at everything else: Katrina, Retirement, Education, etc ; let ENTRUST THEM with our very health.

What kinda FOOL would think of such a thing?

brass tacks
We have yet to discover a cure for death. From there on, it's cost versus benefit.


Boutte does toe the p.c. line...
...doesn't he?

Just kidding.

I actually agree with him. Higher i.q. does positively correlate with making good decisions.

That is not in dispute.

So why do I always make bad decisions? Oh. Oh.

I thought PJAL made wome really good points. Probably correct on the agenda of Fraser. Doesn't mean Fraser is wrong. Only that it has a slightly rightwing perspective.

I believe health care costs and medical insurance have reached "critical mass" here in our Beloved Republic. There will be change of some sort. Status quo is untenable.

I agree with Doug Wilson that more market-oriented choices would help control costs.

Whether it is homeowners insurance, auto insurance, or medical insurance, more competition probably translates into lower costs.

But at the risk of contradicting myself on the benefits of the market place, we must get away from having the profit motive exclusively drive the health care industry.

One's ability to be free from debilitating disease ought not to be simply a matter of one's pocketbook.


Canada vs USA
Obviously. it's much more difficult for USA citizens to obtain health care today than it was 40+ years ago. However, it's still much better than what Canada has to offer. Otherwise Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen would remain in Canada for health care rather than "crossing the border" for health care in the USA.

Boutte
You airily dismiss the words of those of us who live in Canada and are subject to a health care scheme that is shared only by Albania, North Korea and Cuba -- and it is NOT, in fact true, regardless of what Michael Moore may have said, that Canadians live longer than Americans. The only thing that props up this house of cards at all is the presence of the American border within 2 or 3 hours of virtually every Canadian. Not too long ago a set of Canadian quints was born in a small town in Minnesota because there were no neonatal intensive care beds available IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF CANADA.

I live in Ontario and $900 is extorted from my paycheque every year in what is called a Health Premium -- which is thrown directly into general revenue. During the last *election* in Ontario it was proposed by the opposition that this tax be eliminated, and the premier said it could not be -- because *I NEED THAT MONEY!* Get that? Not Ontario needs that money, or the health care system needs that money. DALTON MCGINTY needs that money. And what does he need it for? TO BUY VOTES! Health care has not improved one iota since that tax grab was instituted.

I just got my T-4 and $13,000 in taxes was extorted from me last year, half of it for health care I cannot get.

P.S. When companies were forced to cover pregnancy if they had insurance coverage, my insurance price QUINTUPLED. If your daughters were promiscuouos this was gravy for you; for struggling young single professional women it meant we dropped our insurance coverage.

pjal
"However, the Fraser Institute Report does not come from an independent or neutral group and while I'd not take issue with much of what they report, it is hardly what the author portrays, it is a right leaning conservative/libertarian think tank and they often tend to overstate the case to favour their predetermined posture on a variety of issues.

Just trying to be fair and balanced, take it for what it may be worth."

They cannot do that. The facts trip up their fundamentalist conservative agenda. Remember if they were fair and balanced the Bush Regime may have been competent.

Heathcare

Until we all face the healthcare system is broken nothing much will change. All both sides are doing is putting band aids on a gushing wound ie SCHIP.

The truth is we have a dysfunctional form of socialized medicine with no incentive to lower cost via preventive medicine.

We have a system that punishes people who play by the rules and take personal responsibility by buying a good health insurance policy.

We have a system that insurance companies can dump people and stick the tax payers

We have a system that is making healthcare out of reach for most middle class families.

Anyone who claims they are a VALUES VOTER and they put an issue like Gay marriage ahead of the health system that is bankrupting families and leaving parents and kids without proper care demonstrates the definition of hypocrisy!

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/healthcare-system- anti-life


American Health care.
In 2004, I went on a mission trip to Scotland. I was able to discuss the healthcare there with a normal working Scot, who lived on the same middle class level as I .
Of course, medical care and dental care is free(?) but says I, who pays for it? Says he, "we do! they take 43% off the top of our salaries to pay for it". Just imagine making 100.00 per week and taking $43.00 off before taxes.
Hilliary and Obama, I don't think I want your heathcare system

We're already starting.
Even though I have my own health insurance, the feds are forcing me to pay nearly $1200 for Medicare, which I neither want nor wish to pay for.

Tough, they say. You've got it whether you want it or not.

Americans living in Canada
I'm a long retired health insurance professional who has been in Canada for the past 24 years but have retained USA citizenship and take NOTHING from Canada, not even their Health Care. On those occasions where we need to see a physician, we pay out of pocket, it's very reasonable and the general level of care is acceptable. However, the choices are limited, if you don't like the doctor who assumes your care, it takes a near Act of Congress to change. If you need a specialist, good luck, you're relegated to a waiting list. MRI you say? Drive 45 miles down the highway, but the waiting list for that is as bad or worse than for the specialist who sent you, add that time to the 2 or 3 months that you had to wait to get to the specialist. We know many seniors who have waited for years, suffering in pain, waiting for their number to come up. A lady friend just across the street needs a hip replacement, it's been two years now and she's on morphine. That's short of criminal.

For us, anything that's of more importance means getting up early, hopping on the ferry, going through the border and pulling into the specialist located in Bellingham, WA, just another 20 minutes from the border. Half the cars in the parking lot bear Canadian plates. It's a major source of income for doctors in Bellingham, often paid for by the Canadian government but more often directly by the Canadian patient who has worn thin on their system and is willing to pay the price.

I could go on and on.

However, the Fraser Institute Report does not come from an independent or neutral group and while I'd not take issue with much of what they report, it is hardly what the author portrays, it is a right leaning conservative/libertarian think tank and they often tend to overstate the case to favour their predetermined posture on a variety of issues.

Just trying to be fair and balanced, take it for what it may be worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

Very True
America, do not go down the road we have gone down in Canada. Our health care is terrible and many Canadians only cling to it out of spite for Americans (A lot of America hating going on). I've never seen people cling so tightly to something so useless.

We have no money to spend on our military (We buy old and used diesel submarines from Great Britain) and our troops originally had no khaki fatigues for Afghanistan!

I had to wait for hours in the triage room with a broken wrist, meanwhile bums injured in bar fights were allowed to go ahead of me. This when I was only 12 years old.

Most of our hospitals still even have 70s style green vinyl and frosted glass. And who knows what's in the air ducts...

As if our taxes were not high enough supporting ungrateful muslim immigrants who want to kill us, we have to keep throwing money into this bottomless pit. It's like we are Britain Junior.
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