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Saturday, May 24, 2008
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Detergent Church
by Doug Giles
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I was being interviewed on talk radio a couple of weeks ago when the “talent” turned the discussion to my faith and my thoughts on the state of the Church in America. I’m sitting there thinking, “You invited me on your show to talk about school violence and student stupidity, and now we’re talking about Jesus? Okay, whatever. God is one of my favorite topics, and as long as I get to plug my latest book, A Time to Clash, 757 times in the next 15 minutes, I’m good.”

So, I informed my host that my faith was stonkin’ and in my humble—yet acerbic—prophetic opinion I thought a good chunk of the American church was melting like a little Twinkie under the hot sun of assertive secularism.

In particular the church was wilting like a wuss in regard to its biblical moral maxims and its stance on essential Christian doctrines and was thus well on its way to living La Vida Apostacia. Yep, if our country goes down the crapper, a lot of the blame falls on the American church for capitulating to this crap-addled culture, as far as I’m concerned.

Next question, hermano.

Jiminy Glick went on to ask me what I thought the church could practically do to heal itself and help our nation and what my thoughts were regarding the emergent church.

I told mi amigo that I didn’t know much about the “emergent church.” I’m sure there are many good guys in it, and I’m sure it has caused some damage to el Diablo; however, it looks and sounds a tad narcissistic to me. In addition, from what I’ve observed both in life and via history is that once a church movement gets a “name” it usually means it’s toast and ends up being propped up by hype instead of heaven.

I went on to edumicate my inquirer that I prefer a Detergent Church to an emergent church. Yes sir, I think what we need is a “movement” that would purge the skid mark that sin has left on man’s soul and our society rather than a group of nerdy Christians trying to be Ryan Seacrest.

Yep, a Detergent Church is the type of church that flicks my switch. As far as I’m concerned, a “church” that does not alter culture in a weighty way isn’t worth its salt—no matter how “successful” it may be momentarily. And seeing that our culture is getting more bizarre by the flippin’ day I’d say that whatever the church is doing to be au courant just ain’t cutting it.

Here’s my laundry list (to become a book) regarding how the “called out ones” can be the holy hellfire Detergent Church they’re ‘spose to be. You might want to put on a cup . . .

1. Get men who dig being rowdy back in the pulpit.

2. Could we have some sound doctrine, por favor?

3. Preach scary sermons (at least every fourth one).

4. Get rid of 99.9% of “Christian” TV and sappy Christian music.

5. Quit trying to be relevant and instead become prophetic contrarians, I’m talking contra mundus, mama!

6. Put a 10-year moratorium on “God wants you rich” sermons (yeah, that’s what we need to hear nowadays, you morons, more sermons about money, money, money!).

7. Embrace apologetics and shun shallow faith.

8. Evangelize like it’s 1999.

9. Push lazy Christians to get a life or join a Satanic Church.

10. Demand that if a Christian gets involved in the arts that their “craft” must scream excellence and not excrement.

Allow me to elaborate, my little ones . . .

1. Get men who dig being rowdy back into the pulpit. When I hear one of the ubiquitous whiny, weepy ministers get on TV or radio and whimper about Jesus and life, I think it’s no wonder we’re getting our ecclesiastical clocks cleaned by secularists; our “leaders” are oh so very lame.

Look, God’s men aren’t suppose to be effeminate, spiritually neutered, prancing nice guys. Biblical ministers are to be sons of thunder who are daunting and not David Archuleta-like grinning hand-holders and cliché dolers to messed-up wienies. You can’t transform boys into men when you’re a Peter Pan pastor. Capice?

If your church is remotely serious about salvaging society then here’s a little raw 411 for you, el pastor: You’re not going to change the USA by being nice but by being bold. And to be bold boys you must have high doses of holy testosterone. Matter of fact, in Moses’ day you couldn’t be a priest if you didn’t have cojones (see Deut. 23:1-4). I say we, the Detergent Church, start kickin’ it old school again and retable that deuteronomic prerequisite for current ministers and wannabes; i.e. you don’t get to lead if you don’t have your boys intact.

From rank secularism to islamo-fascism, our country is between a rock and a hard place, and I’m sure the USA would appreciate the church’s help, hello. Obviously, I don’t believe we can help if our leaders don’t have holy huevos to stand up for God and what is sane in this psycho society.

As far as my imbalanced backside is concerned, if the “man of God” is not a dude in a Clint Eastwood sense of the word, then we really don’t need him right now to preach or lead worship—maybe later after 100 years of work, but not now—which means there’s going to be a lot of job openings in churches across the land if my advice is heeded because the church has officially become wussified.

What’s the solution to our cultural pollution? Historically it’s always been men who would be men, which means we don’t need puppets, panderers, Wallys and wusses. We need prophets, patriarchs, warriors and wild men.

To be continued . . .

• Join Doug Giles and comedian Brad Stine in Nashville, June 3rd at 7 PM for GodMen (for more 411 go to www.godmen.org). Also, check out Doug’s LATEST VIDEO: “Teach Your Kids How to Sense BS” and his interview with leadership guru John Maxwell this week on www.ClashRadio.com.

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About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
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Waiting
Waiting for the next installment.

Earth to Doug
Doug, where have you been, there is such a movement and there are men leading and there is sound doctrine being preached and popular culture is soundly rejected! You who are writers and the main stream press or as Rush would say the drive by media couldn't see it happening, even if it was as big as a truck and it was about to hit you. Sorry, I'm getting cared away.Doug the Church is doing that very thing, but not the one you are seeing. The so called churches today are built on false doctrine and will never get any one turned around, even if their life depended on it. But it is happening today in our country and has been for quite some time. Earth to Doug where are you?

Why
Why are Doug Giles' Amazon book sales rankings so abysmally low?

FIVE STARS DOUG *****
Two excerpts :

"I don’t believe we can help if our leaders don’t have > holy huevos < to stand up for God and what is sane in this psycho society.


What’s the solution to our cultural pollution? Historically it’s always been men who would be men, which means we don’t need puppets, panderers, Wallys and wusses. We need prophets, patriarchs, warriors and wild men."
~~~
YOU ARE, OF COURSE, 100% CORRECT!

My beliefs tend to be 'Old Testament', 'eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.

Not prevalent today though. Pity.





Wow
That's is precisely what the church needs..MEN!
And MEN who aren't afraid to preach the Cross and Him Crucified.
MEN who aren't afraid of losing their 501 3c tax exemption, and will preach the word to our society. For too many years the church has wimped out, serving two masters. The church has more fear of the IRS than of God, otherwise we wouldn't have infant torture in the guise of abortin especially partial birth abortion; same sex marriage, porn everywhere; drugs; and all the other problems a society where everyone
does that which is right in their own eyes.

Bring me Men,
To match my mountains, to meet my majesty, to forge inroads in the wilderness...

America needs MEN, in the Church, and in the pulpit, and espeically as head of the house and home.

And that in a nut shell (pun intended) is the truth.

Great one today, Amen!

Militant Christianity
That's what I see reading Giles. It might barely be better than militant Islam.

bring me men
youve had men for 2000 years and you still cant give me any objecgtive proof that what you have accomplished as a church makes this a better world then it would have been without it. you can speculate and do what i call Church Science (nionsense science) and come to some sort of comclusion but nothing definite. i dont know what the total is but Christian people have slaughtered perhaps as many as they claim to have save (not counting ndians in north and south anerica and in africa who are forced in one way or another to become christians, not all just many. if interested look for ma, ill be back with glad tidings.

church
meanwhile just to get in the mood read deuteronomy 15 1-15. its a joy and is guaranteed to provide you with new insights into why christians had better be cautious when talking about the muslim religion as being the most bloodthirsty. while youre reading try to imagin that this verse is being taughtt to many nmuslim children is is any wonder that one of the first things they thinkof is get a gun or a package of explosives.

Thoroughly apostate girly-boy church
Doug, the bogus "church" needs to have its fat-@ss kicked, and you are just the man to do it. I have been trying to do the same thing for many years using slightly more profane language and from a theological perspective. We have been living in "the great apostasy" since Origin decided to change the early church's theology so he could be a big man to the pagan philosophers of his day. It has been down hill with increasing speed in the turns ever since. The basic problem is that the church has been deceived into adopting Satan's theology and calling it Christian evangelical (Calvinist) orthodoxy. Bad theological principles produce bad everything else, and that is what we see today as the failed “church,” i.e., churchianity. You have to go back to the ministry of Charles G. Finney to find anything that resembles New Testament Christianity. There is not a single denomination or high (or low) profile leader today that has even the foggiest idea what New Testament Christianity IS or how to get a man genuinely converted to this mystery faith. Study the first half of Finney's Systematic Theology (I'm rewriting it into contemporary language and style) and his Memoirs to get an in-depth idea of what kind of intellectual testosterone it takes to preach a gospel the Holy Spirit will actually bless with large numbers of genuine conversions. And, yes, you will be labeled a hairy tick if you get into the real thing. Don’t sweat it. God approves. That should be enough.

Rinso, Tide, Cheer, Bold... ad infinitum
"... there’s going to be a lot of job openings in churches across the land if my advice is heeded because the church has officially become wussified."

Is it 'churches' or 'the church'? There are about 26,000 Protestant denominations in the US. So how do you plan to get them all on the same page (esp since most 'pastors' regard their 'church' as a family business?) By asking them to 'heed your advice'?

No consensus on anything. No leadership. You can't herd cats, even 'wussy' cats. They 'protest'-eth too much!

The only thing that I...
...respect about the Muslim religion is that they take no crap from no body! Maybe that's why they have been so successful in modern times.

A Song for Sunday
As I'm a Catholic we don't really do fire and brimstone just stick with the traditions of a thousand years - but I thought this song really could speak to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQn1DEv4z3U

The Hand Song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXTkCDozScc

The above song

The above song is dedicated to Murph

Churches
All I can say is AMEN BROTHER !!!!! I just moved from Kansas City Missouri where I went to a REALLY good church with great preaching. Now I live in Pennsylvania and I cannot find one church where they bring the Word hard and hot !!! But the people seem to be very religous. If anyone knows of a good one in Pa please tell me.

George of the Jungle?
Sounds to me like you believe the pulpit should be filled by chest-thumping George of the Jungles (watch out for that tree!) Sorry, that is not what I had in mind.

What I would like to see, though, is churches with Preachers like the Clint Eastwood nameless preacher in Pale Rider.

Unfortunately, there are not so many men like that left in North America (and NO, it is NOT the fault of women who have taken on the male role because the men have abandoned it; although we have become the men we wanted to marry, we did it because those men have pretty much disappeared from North America.)

I personally do not want to go to church to see a man celebrating his balls and flaunting his wee wee. As someone has observed, that is simply too much like a Gay Pride Parade for my tastes.

I would, however, like to see James Chapter 2 and Matthew Chapter 6 taught every week for a year, and good practical demonstrations given after church and every day thereafter.

Oh, and it would be really nice if the pastor could find the time to visit shut-ins and help counsel the families struggling to keep those shut-ins afloat -- not offer us money, but offer us strength for the fight. Cancel the committee meetings and the Marches for Social Justice and get back to caring for the sheep as Jesus commanded you.

Nah, its easier to stand in the pulpit and celebrate your sex organs. Good God in the Haymow.

STRONG WOMEN !
STRONG WOMEN !

True Americans have always loved strong women.


From the beginning, at Breed's Hill, they carried the water, passed the ammunition, tended the wounded, even whacked a few of the enemy.

They also worked in the fields, along side their menfolk, they kept the hearth, they bore the children, they cooked the food. Partnership. Teamwork.

They also fought the Indians, while doing all the above. Mankind has never had anything better than a good woman.

During World War II, they ran the factorys with their labors.

Yes! We love strong women!

Sadly, when the man is weaker than the woman, things break down.

I suspect, much of today's divorce rate is from this single cause.


After President Wilson's term, we began the serious portion of the breakdown of our former society, with the ever increasing socialist drive.

Now, many men have renounced their traditional role, and have become women.

We call them Democrats, or lefties, or commie pinko creeps, sometimes, we even call them politicians.

I for one, want a good strong woman at my side, and I do have one.



For all you ladies who do not have a strong man, my condolences.

For all you men who do not have a strong woman, my condolences.


For all you whiners Get a life. I worked my way though college. I payed for most all of it.


Michelle, O'b. Sorry dear, you do not really measure up as a strong wife.

You measure up better as an aggressive parasite.


~~~

OBTW: AudiR10 please do not smite me. You are one of the ladies I admire.

I am already married for life, so please do not take this as a proposal.


Giles
Are you all talk, or will you condemn the Bush administration for acts of torture?

Whimpy churches abound in GA & FL
Church after church down here are pastored by limp-wristed men preaching feel-good religion, the way to more $$$ in ones pocket, rock bands to 'attract' the youth... and oh yes, be sure to tithe, not to feed & care for the downtrodden, widows and orphans, but to provide luxury homes & cars for the ministers and pay for their retirement plans. However...

This problem isn't limited to the Southeast. It's rampant across the country. We need more preachers like the recently passed away Dr. D. James Kennedy, the evangelical who televised his weekly sermons from Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale.

Ratas

That was beautiful, thanks

The American church is spoiled
an distracted by fretting about the fallen world's behavior, and from there determined to push congregants in spiritual and psychological pain into looking happy and calling that "having faith". Solicitations come from area churches: "Come Find Your Life's Purpose!", "Got Jesus?", "In a Crazy World, There is Sanity", etc... A spirit filled church needs none of this.

What is needed are people who are in the world but not of it; who are not obsessed with correcting those who are swearing and/or "being negative"; who receive the broken and lost with the grace and acceptance and do not expect them to immediatly come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ; who do not throw religious platitudes at hurting people when turned to for help and support; who are not preoccupied with correcting gays, goths, emos, etc... Who themselves do not equate church attendance with comittment to Christ.

At this point, I have no place to send kids who are searching out their faith. In my region, we have the dead churches, the black militant churches, and the legalistic churches. They excel at relegating kids to cliqueish youth groups and placing burdens on them. Its very discouraging.

An aside, reading Giles can be tough
because of the overuse of interjections, figures of speech, in this case the use of a foreign language, and repetative application of the off beat expression. I find myself trying to read around the incessant hipness jabs.

Its like an otherwise pretty woman caked in make-up and overly laden with clanking, garrish jewelry.

Taft
Another one of your cogent, on-topic posts, I see.

Geesh...

Amazing!
It is amazing, isn't it, that this Giles continues to get publication ink?

What this country needs, I guess, is a few more self-righteous bozos like John Hagee and Billy Graham, ranting and yelling, scaring the daylights out of children and promoting religious confrontation with the crazy Muslims.

No, what we all need is to grow up, get over religion, recognize that we're just another species here on Earth and use our excellently evolved intelligence to feed and house ourselves. Instead, we spend our energy arguing over how to get to a non-existent heaven.

daft: We're still waiting for just one

...ONE... relevant comment.

For the life of me
I can't understand why he asked you that question.

That, in itself, illustrates our spiritual condition.

Church moves us into action for good.
It is personal. We choose our preference in congregation [if any].

Hopefully our preference is that which promotes spiritual growth in us and humane solutions for our brother; and not what feels cozy & comfortable for settling in on.

Church, as God, is within us.
Its cornerstones are spiritual, not mortar.





For Anne and Primus
"Push lazy Christians"? Pushing people, even metaphorically, is anti-christian. Did Jesus once 'push" someone into believing? I suppose it would have been fun, for some people, to have seen Jesus 'push" Pilot around, but for those who know the Bible, that's not what Jesus was about.

Doug the entertainer
In a sense, I think that Doug's vision of what the church should be is a by-product of the entertainment industry. He tries to be entertaining, and he is, in a way. His tone and rhetorical approach are very much in line with the larger entertainment culture. The sarcasm, the put-down, and the constant references to the male nether region to get a chuckle. (Watch any Fox sitcom.) I am no pastor, (or entertainer) but I don't think that Paul, or Peter, or James, or any of the saints took the testosterone road to bringing the world to Christ. Paul says "In my weakness is my strength." In Galatians 5:22-23 Paul reveals to us the true Christian/pastoral spirit.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

While I agree that America needs a revival, and needs more dynamic men to lead it, I am not sure that imitating the secular/agnostic/atheist entertainment culture is the way to do it. IMHO.




Taft
Well, at least your 2nd comment had SOMETHING to do with the subject.

I don't disagree with your assessment, however.

Emergent Church
Excellent article Doug!

The Emergent church is post-modern pap, often heretical, usually all about self. Just the thing to take the Church farther into apostasy.

Detergent Church
Are you related to Charles Finney perchance amigo ? What a refreshing hurricane of a word ! I know it has to be God cuz my knees are heading to the floor for an hour or two . Thanks bro !

At Least We Know
where garryg24 stands on religion. We do not need someone yelling from the pulput, but someone talking about God and Jesus. We need a place that tells us there is a HEAVEN and a HELL and that is where those who condem JESUS and GOD will end up if they turn their backs on HIM and worship this EARTH.

I don't need a Pastor Wright preaching HATE, Hate is for God to judge and judge He will.

Sorry, I don't like or believe this article. Maybe I am missing the message????

Joy

America
For our men and women in the Armed Services.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CILIBlQ2D0Q

Re: your statements
Great job! Thank you for giving us a voice.

Spiritual Discernment
Is what is hard to learn.
I know it is hard for all of us simply due to being human.

Not only do I see the conflict going on today in Church's Doug is speaking about, but have experienced it personally as we ALL do.

Learning the difference between meekness and weakness is a battle for every individual who becomes a Christian.

Jesus was Meek, He was Not Weak.
There is a big difference.
Jesus Christ is a mans man, and He chose manly men to follow Him.

(He is preached about by some as if He is a wimp, thinking He is like themselves)

Fishermen are not known, even today as sissies.
They are manly men, or could never do the job nature extracts when dealing with the elements.

Bold men who face death from their occupation.
This gave me a great conflict when I heard the call of the Lord.
And I KNOW it does all men who Hear His Voice.
Saying Follow Me.

Jesus once said "Blessed is he who is not offended in me"
He said this when the messenger of John the Baptist reported that John was in prison and about to have his head cut off.

Why did God allow this?

I admit I once thought this was wrong, to have left John in the hands of that fool Herod.

2Co 11:29 -
Who is weak, and I am not weak?

Learning the difference between Meekness and Weakness is a battle of the mind and heart.
And how to apply the Right attitude (spirit) to each situation.

The weakness of God is stronger than the strength of men.
1Co 1:25 -
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

2Co 13:4 -
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

We need BOLD men, Like Jesus who seen His own death, looking it in the eye and walked right into it with no fear.
Gets no stronger than that

Teaching 2nd grade religion...
...several years ago in preperation for first Communion (Catholic) I decided to offer my students 'award ribbons' for memorizing important prayers.

When I told the director of Youth Education my plan she responded " Well, I guess it's okay. But you're not REALLY going to require that they memorize them,right?"

"Well- YEAH. That IS the plan."

"But you WILL still give the ribbons to the children who fail to memorize the prayers?"

"Um- NO."

"What will you say to the parents?"

"I'll say- Help your kid MEMORIZE THE PRAYERS"

"Well- we really don't LIKE to MAKE the children learn the prayers before they recieve communion."

No SH*T! Maybe THAT'S the problem! MY FAITH IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO WORK FOR!!!

I have always been a fighter
Grew up in a small faming community where the very definition of all boys was how well they could defend themselves.
And fight at the drop of a hat over any insult.
My first day at school I met my first bully, and he scared me bad.
He knew it too and took advantage of my fear to chase me home every day, and I now laugh about.

My uncle seen him chasing me one day and made me go fight him, I whupped his butt, and quit running from fights.

Once becoming a Christian, I had to relearn HOW to fight, as God was not like me in how I learned to fight.

He fights on a much higher level than I knew anything about.
And I had to learn the battle is not against flesh and blood at all, its against wickedness in high places.
In Government AND Church's.

typo
Grew up in a small farming community

Amen, Doug.
As a church we've had way too much, "gentle Jesus meek and mild," and way too little, "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

We must, as Christians, emulate both the Suffering Servant, who sacrificed to further God's plan, and the righteous Judge, who cleansed the Temple of those who disrespected God and who will come again to do the same for all creation at the Last Judgment.

Chirst is the reason for the chruch
"Who do you say that I am?" "Answer The Christ, the true living Son of God." Jesus told Peter that on this truth,(who He is) He would build His church and the gates of Hell should not prevail against it. In other words the church would attack the gates of hell and win. The American Christian Church (body of christ) is alive and well. Its not about money,buildings, 60,000 in Sunday attendance, lifestyles, or any secular issue, there is a remnaint who follow the bibical instructions from Christ on what it means to be a Christian. We are to love Christ more than ourselves, and share that love with others. Salvation (following Christ as God) Means we will spend forever in heaven. Revival is breaking out in China, India, and all over the world that you will never hear about in the news. The moral decay of the United States may distroy the country, but not the church. Count on it...

Giles
Giles has his own style and I appreciate his passion.


The state of America isn't due to the power of evil but the weakness of the church. We hold the line.


We ARE seeing the birth of the apostate church.


Im all for strong women, being one. There is real beauty in a strong man.

Our Republic is in peril and if you don't realize how close we are to the end you are in denial.

Jassman
Calvary Chapel is fairly descent with disecting the word. And I know of a small church that is great with alter calls (not seen too often anymore) and doesn't tolerate a lot of sin, like other churches do. Both are in Philly.

There is also a great messianic synagogue in Philly, Beth Emmanuel. Because the members are Jews, they stick with Jewish customs, but they are OUTSTANDING in disecting and explaining the word in its entirety. I have not found yet a gentile (myself included) that can fully explain the entire bible including correctly interpreting the jots and tittles and spaces in between the lettering the way a Jew who follows Jesus can. It will blow your mind and set you on fire.

I moved out of that area and sadly can't attend any longer. But I moved into an area with disgruntled Christians like myself, sick of compromised churches, so my neighbors and I started our own home churches. We are all diverse and bring something to the table so everyone is nourished, empowered, encouraged, and edified.

garyg24
"No, what we all need is to grow up, get over religion, recognize that we're just another species here on Earth and use our excellently evolved intelligence to feed and house ourselves. Instead, we spend our energy arguing over how to get to a non-existent heaven."

First of all, I'm not just another species, I am made in God's image. You are the problem with society. You and those like you who view themselves as no more than animals who can sometimes think is the very reason society has decayed and NOT evolved. Since you view yourself as an animal, it is no wonder why you have no expectations of civility.

Because I view myself as one created in the very image of God, I have higher standards of morality, civility and a society to embrace those attributes.

There is a Heaven. I will one day live there for eternity.

If you accept Christ and follow his word you gain eternity in Heaven. If he did not exist and heaven doesn't exist, what did you lose by following Christ? But if he does exist, which I KNOW he does, and you do not accept Christ, you still gain eternity, but an eternity apart from Christ spent in a horrid place he died to free you from.

talent scout
Subject: Spiritual Discernment

You hit the nail on the head. And therein lies the reason for this great apostocy and watered down version of scripture.

I hear too many people basing belief's and making judgements on feelings, not faith. Their spiritual discernment is lacking if not missing completely. It is obvious in their actions, voting, speaking, causes, just everything and every part of their lives. When things fall apart, they call it a test rather than properly identifying it as consequences of poor judgement and lack of true discernment.

Just remember, Ex-Tex
Your Director of Youth Education was probably emulating the philosophy of our public schools. Give children ribbons and rewards whether they deserve them or not so as not to hurt the feelings of the children and especially their parents. I remember my son winning a long-jump contest on Field Day when he was in the 3rd grade. His ribbon was no different than the ribbons given to the kids who didn't jump near as far. The experience made him suspicious of all of his teachers and the school system in general throughout his K-12 years. He thought they were a bunch of phony-baloney, plastic banana, not so good time rock and rollers. Which is a pretty apt description of the public school system these days. A little off topic, but you get the comparison of rewarding children for not memorizing prayers and school children not memorizing homework or mediocre performance in any activity they are confronted with. It needs to be changed, but who has the Kahunas to say so and get it done?








gayel
what kind of kid is that, that his wj[hole educational experience is ruined by one little experience. what did you do to help him or did you dO AS TEACHERS SEE SO MANY PARENT DO, wipe the kids out of their minds, live most of their lives as if the kids didnt exist and wait agerly each fall for school to start so that they can get rid of them foe awhile.
i taught for 32 years and dearly love almost all of it but i always felt that if parent wernt going to pay more attention to their kids then hat we saw was happening that we should ignore them completely and get on with the job of r aising their kids. somebody had to. as for parents, mount a nmcahine gun on the roof of th school and shoot at any parent that comes within 100 yards.

Carufe, Talent Scout
I really believe that when we got away from the liturgy and decided to do our own thing, theologically, everything went downhill. Not that some of these folks don't have anything good to say, but upon what is it grounded?

"Excitement" seems to be the watchword in today's contemporary Christian culture. Even one of our local megachurches seems to have bought into the Jesus is a dog-and-pony-show mentality; the pastor rides up on stage mounted on a Harley and has two bodyguards to boot.

Those old hymns, meant to convict, comfort and teach, have been replaced by saccharine "praise songs" that do nothing except pander to emotions.

Doug is right. There's too much focus on our "best life now" and not enough on "Repent-the time is near!"

Denying the Power of God
All the while giving Him lip service.
True Worship is rare today, and is why the Church's are like social gatherings.
It would be hard to tell the difference in an Odd Fellow Hall Meeting and many Church's if one went by how much Power is felt in some of these Church's.

Words are different yes, but the power of them is the same because there is no real Spirit to them.
1Co 4:20 -
For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power

Real Power of God brings real Heart felt Conviction and Blessing.

Once any person alive has ever felt that Power, nothing can replace it or make them think God is not here and available NOW.

Church's are no longer seeking Him though, and if the Lord sent them someone with the Power of God working in their life, they would kick him out of their midst.

Like the story I heard of a small black child crying cause he could not go to a white church with his friend years ago.
The Lord spoke to him and said its ok, they do not allow me in either.



Shun Clint
Mr. Giles has a way with words. I enjoyed reading it. One comment though. Clint Eastwood is not a model of a real man, much less a moral one. He made two of his lovers (including Sandra Locke) get abortions, and he beat his first wife. He was a raging alcoholic. He associates with Democrats these days. His portrayal of WWII soldiers as amoral and troubled and Americans as cynical and bigoted in Flags of Our Fathers was horrible. And making a movie sympathetic to the Japanese military (Letters from Iwo Jima) was beyond the pale! Not that he did not give us fair warning of what he was made of when he decided to play the Devil as the protagonist in High Plains Drifter. I have no respect for Clint Eastwood.

I have seven words
"The Cost of Discipleship" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Read it. Then live it.

(Unrelated to this topic, please visit my political blog, "Plumb Bob Blog: Squaring the Culture," at http://www.plumbbobblog.com. Click on my nickname and follow the links on my townhall blog. Thanks.)

Church
They were first called Christians at Antioch, because they protrayed Christ in their everyday affairs! Therefore there was no profanity, no divorces and remarriages, no lusting, no envying, no hateing one another, no Hollywwood style lives! Do U really believe that if Christ was a live here on earth, that HE would have a television in HIS home? Aw come on now! Be honest U KNOW HE wouldn't!!! Broad is the way to destruction, and MANY there be that go there on, BUT, Strait [diffucult] is the gate AND narrow is the way that lead to life and few there be that find it! U have to REPENT and turn from your sins and live sinlessly the rest of your days, if u want to go to Heaven!! There will be no sin, or sinners, in Heaven!

mrbmrb
You taught???
I sure hope it wasn't English!

Anyone
ever read the sermons and prayers of Peter Marshall? He was a man of God.
AudiR I don't think he was talking about preachers being macho men, trying to prove their masculinity. But Men of God who are.t afraid to preach the Word of God, and call sin SIN! You know that okd fashioned idea that's been replaced with that which tickles ears

Wow! It was so nice to finally
hear some God-supporters.

In my church service there are no icons at all.
It is a spiritual sanctuary. I love that.

This is a more provincial setting (from Boston), where emphasis is placed on 'the Christ'. The individual's consecration with God through quiet prayer.

We collectively read the same Bible Lesson accompanied by its spiritual interpretation from our text book.

The Lord's Prayer is read very slowly, so that it may be absorbed, for the powerful prayer that it is. I love that, because it is not simply a ritual, sped through. We really digest each meaningful word. I can't seem to hold tears back at the reading of this beautiful prayer.

On Wednesday evenings a shorter Bible lesson is read. Afterwards our church holds a testimony service open to all, where those who are moved to do so (as a result of the healing lesson), describe a personal experience which may have been a trial & became healing into their own lives. This is usually quite beautiful and inspiring.

There are no clergy in my religion. The unadulterated King James Bible, and its correlative passages from the Christian Science Textbook are our only teachers. That leaves little room for preaching human hypothisies, which we all know could sway elsewhere and not be God's.

Although my service is puritanical, I certainly appreciate other styles of services. That's what's so wonderful about our country! We can practice our own and visit churches of others.

Talent Scout
Your #5 post described what happened to us, we were invited to leave the Church after we got hungry for more of the Gospel, after the Pastor discovered we prayed with other believers who weren't in 100% doctrinal agreement with him.

Per Post #20..Exactly, I wish Doug wasn't so crude however I believe his point was there are too many over coiffed, stylishly and expensively dressed males trying to preach a happy, happy, what me worry gospel instead of Christ and Him Crucified, and our taking up our cross and following Him. I once read an article
about not many men were as physically strong as Jesus and that he wasn't the weak faced person
portrayed by so many artists.

Alive in Him: too much emphasis on praise songs, which are great but there are so many
of the great hymns that are praise songs also.
It's like they threw the baby out with the bath water. I dislike the insipid songs that pass
for worship these days. Our children are being robbed of a great heritage and teaching when
these songs are discarded in favor of more contemporary music..some of it sounding no different than the Rock music they are trying to emulate to get the kids interested in living for Jesus. It seems, doing things in their own strength rather than relying on the work of the Holy Spirit.

Still something missing....
Funny. After reading this article I found no mention of anyone preaching the gosple of Christ. Sure, there is the call for more pulpit pounders willing to shout their opinion, but what about calling us to repentance and teaching us about faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Just wondering. Maybe that will be in the section of 'sound doctrine'. I'm hoping by sound the author means firm and solid, not loud.

Detergent Church
Doug is not unlike too many American Christians, in that they have misunderstood the purpose of the church. Doug's thesis, in case you missed it, is that the church of Jesus Christ is to transform culture (one central component of its mission, anyway). Since the beginning, the mission of the disciples has never been transformationalism. It has never been to conflate cult and culture. It has, however, always been firmly self-conscious of the two-kingdoms doctrine. As Christ said, "My kingdom is not of this world," and as our father Abraham said (along with the writer to the Hebrews in ch. 11 and 13) we are aliens and strangers here. The church is a redemptive community here to redeem sinners, not culture, and not America. It has never been God's purpose to redeem culture, to transform the civil realm, to be "transformational." The civil realm is temporary, and exists only to provide a common grace environment out of which redemption for a particular people will be redeemed. Just as in the days of Noah, so also will it be for the church today. Do we see the line of Seth transforming culture? Do we see Abraham transforming culture? Do we see Paul, James, or John transforming culture? No, No, No. The church is about the gospel. Sorry if that is not enough for you. Sorry to tell you folks, but that is what her mission is. Period.
The Mosaic covenant cannot be imported to America. It was merely a temporary covenant to teach us that what is holy is holy by Christ, and him alone, and it is not meant to exist beyond the coming of Christ. Culture, the civil sphere is common and prophane, and it is not, and never will be redeemed. Rather, the wheat and the chaff will exist together until the time of the harvest. Get this wrong, and you will always get the church wrong. Get it right and the church will be truly reformed and on the right track to being what she should be.

The Real Church's Ultimate Mission
Joe, you are partially correct in emphasizing the preaching of the gospel and the Kingdom as central to the church's mission. However, when the "church" is no longer the church, when it no longer has the slightest idea what Christianity IS, when it has no concept of the means of genuine salvation or the biblical principles of the Christian life, then preaching the gospel becomes literally impossible. Unhappily, that is the situation today--universally.

On the other hand, when apostasy was not the norm as during The Second Great Awakening described in The Memoirs of Charles G. Finney, at that time Finney was able to preach an accurate gospel of salvation, huge numbers of people came into the Kingdom over an extended period of time and society was naturally transformed quite radically as a result. God is not a girly-God, he wants it all: great biblical truth concerning the terms of the covenant of salvation and Christian living and a transformed society naturally exploding upon the scene in the power of the Holy Spirit to the enormous benefit of millions of souls thirsty for God. How else will we storm the gates of hell?



The Real Church's Ultimate Mission
To achieve the will of God in this matter will require the same kind of men as it required in Finney's day--mighty men of prayer and intelligent men of great courage with accurate, God given theology willing to be considered heretics by the wicked religious establishment (like those who executed Jesus) in order to share the uncompromised truth with multitudes using every means of communication possible. It takes real manly men to be willing to take the considerable time and go to the enormous effort to seek out the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit to understand what the Bible actually means by what it says. It took me five years of serving an absolute obsession for the truth 24/7. Without a similar commitment, however, they will only be continuing to spread more powerless, ludicrous twaddle--albeit in a masculine way--and thus producing no honest gain for the Kingdom. This deeper meaning of masculine ministry is what Doug is really talking about.

Truth
Giles is just a whiner and has little understanding of what others churches lack. It comes down to how conceited one is and willing to criticize others.

emergent church
You got it Mr. Giles. I am tired of wimpy preachers in the pulpit. People need to about Jesus and how to be an example of real christian living that changes lives. We do not need to be promised financial wealth to touch lives and and be prayer warrors to end all the things that the devil is trying to thwart the gospel. Things like immorality including murder of innhocent babies and homosexuals being tempted into thinking that they are not able to be freed from their sin. Being freed from sin is the most important message of the Bible. condoning sin is not a part of the gospel.
John 3: 16 is still the core of the gospel. I would rather hear a preacher on fire for Jesus than hear a lot of loud music and empasizes clapping to the beat or promises of great wealth. What is it if a man gains the whole world but loses his own soul.

Tea Party
You're exactly right.

Jesus has been turned from the Truth to be proclaimed into a wh0re to be tarted up and marketed.

Shameful. Revelation 2 comes to mind...

"Thy Strong Word" is one of my absolute favorite hymns!

Dear Harold
We already have enough "omniscient" liberals here as it is. Try and understand; there's only one Guy who has all the wisdom. And you don't even believe in Him! We do. Therefore... why do you bother commenting here? Go back to Ariana and try to convince her that YOU'RE God. As she's already convinced that she's Mother Gaia, it should get interesting.

You can only address one point
At a time folks.

I remember a Service one time when a certain speaker went on and on and on and on and wore out everyone's patience.

Trying to cover every subject known to man and God and the details from A to Z.

Finally an old man stood up and waited patiently to be recognized, which the speaker finally did and asked him what was on his mind.

The old man simply said:
"listen brother, you cannot tell it all in one day"

For those who come here and point out what is NOT talked about are like that dimwit speaker who though he could tell it all in one day.

Open your ears and understand with the mind Giles is speaking about one subject as he cannot cover all bases that will stop your useless questions.

Anyone who thinks they can tell it all in one article, lets see you do it, other wise shut up with complaining about what he has NOT mentioned.
And READ what he HAS mentioned.

Information comes best from sips, not a drowning.
Its like trying to pour a 100 gallons of water into the small mouth of a soft drink bottle all in one swift pour.
Cannot be done, so just be quiet about what is not mentioned, and READ what IS.

Arrogance destroys credibilty
HaroldReimann
- 11:05 AM EST
Subject: What About Truth? Doug Doesn't Have It
How do I know? I have it. eli3.tripod.com.
---
So
God did NOT send Jesus Christ into the world, He has sent HaroldReimann instead.

Jesus Christ is the Truth sonny boy, not you.

John 14:6 -
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Every man who points to himself is a liar and a false prophet.
Mark it down folks, that is the thing the Jesus Christ was speaking of right here.

Joh 16:13 -
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself.


This man came to point all to himself as the "truth" giver and not point to Jesus Christ as the SPIRIT OF TRUTH points to.

You can know a false prophet by this very thing, USING SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT.

Lu 24:27 -
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

True men of God POINT to Jesus Christ, liars point to themselves as if they are some great one.

Joh 7:18 -
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:

BY this knowledge, you can discern a liar from a man of God.
Men of God do not point to themselves, but to Jesus Christ.


False prophets
Will always point to themselves as some great one, and all men need to listen to them.

These lying prophets will say anything to gain honor from men, cause that is what they seek after.
The honor of men and NOT the HONOR that comes from God ONLY.

To gain this honor they seek from men, they learn how to speak very well, and men call them "gifted speakers" as they can use and manipulate words like an artist does a canvas and paint.
Painting a picture with words to boost his own image as some great one among men.
Preachers are not the only ones who do this by far, every politician on earth does it too.

All liars, even if he uses some truth in his speaking, his intention is false and is not sincere.

In fact the smart preachers,(politicians) who look for self glory, will use 99 percent of the truth in his speech, and just a slight and very small lie to
implant himself as the important one to hear.
Most are not this smart though and will use half truths, but that is sufficient for the simple and unlearned among us.

Obama is a perfect example of the politician.
mohammed is another the false prophet, who points all men to himself as some great one.

Many false prophets today, just as Jesus Warned us all about.
Be very careful who you give honor to, that should ONLY be given to men of God, who will NEVER use it for selfish aims.
But be an example of the Honor God Himself has reserved for the true seekers of Him.

And not the esteem of men.
That which is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination to God.


Lu 16:15 -
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Example is given in Acts
Of how a false prophet uses words to promote himself, and not the truth.
Which Truth, can ONLY be found in Jesus Christ, and no preacher's person.

Acts 8:4-13
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

8 And there was great joy in that city.

9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.


11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not your preacher

You can actually be sincere
And believe a lie.
And are sincerely wrong anyway.

How are we to know what is a lie and what is truth?

This definition has been drawn from the very beginning in the Garden of Eden.

Lies have a father, just as the Truth does.

The father lies was the originator of every following lie ever told against the Creator, in the Garden of Eden.

He is cunning and he is smart to do evil, and is a very real devil.
To gain the attention of men, he uses subtility by asking a seeming innocuous question, harmless.
Not likely to offend or provoke to strong emotion; insipid and worth consideration.

The first one is the most vicious, and satan has been very successful in decieving men with just this simple question.

"Hath God said"
Ge 3:1 -
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,....

If he can plant doubt in the mind of a man, he knows the right words to use to decieve you completely, and all the while you can be as sincere as you know how to be.

"Seems like its true", is not good enough, whats true is reality at its best.

Pr 14:12 -
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Jesus Christ is the WAY.
There is no other

high five
High five, amigo. What's up, el pastor cool dude. Let's go kick some atheist arse. Whooo hooooooooooo! Bring em on, cowboy. Wanna go drink till we puke and then shoot at beer cans?

I get you, Doug. You're a real he-man, carry a gun to church, hate much of America, and write like an 8th grader. Book sales are very telling... you are preaching to a minority who are not concerned about their neighbors.

Jesus would be so proud.

Your videos are awful. Just awful.

inthemajority
majority of what? Fools?

Stay there and be part of the number, moron.

What have you ever wrote that sold to anyone?

The Church
Hey Doug, next time you see one of those 20 year old kids wearing a white shirt and tie and sporting a civilized haircut, look and see if he's wearing a badge that gives his name and says he's a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Sit down and talk to him for 5 minutes. You want someone with cojones...these guys face rejection and intimidation 24 hours a day 365 days a year for 2 years and they never flinch from their message. A message very much like the one you describe, i.e., God lives, and Governments and Societies will play hell trying to get along without him.

Replies
Dear Talent Scout: That pretty well sums it up!

Dear Minority Report: Yo, dude! You can go back to your Joe Francis DVD collection, now. Have a worthy life, Man!

Dear Joe: I often worry about those kids, too. God bless and keep them.

-
-

steve
"Dear Minority Report: Yo, dude! You can go back to your Joe Francis DVD collection, now. Have a worthy life, Man!"

First, who is Joe Francis? Do you have a copy I can borrow so I too can know what a good Christian watches? Is this anything like Jesus Camp... if so, I'm not up for indoctrination by idiots. And yes, I watched the entire thing, and fear for those children.

Second, I too find Giles' odd use of the language, as though he were trying to energize a bunch of school kids who just want to go home already. So at least we can agree that the following sounds ridiculous:

"my faith was stonkin’" (what the heck is stonkin'?)
"wuss" (from one heckuva manly heterosexual, do doubt)
Next question, hermano. (supposed to be clever or funny? insulting?)
"I told mi amigo" (oh, I see. You speak two languages poorly)
"I went on to edumicate my inquirer" (did the adults leave the auditorium?)
"men who dig being rowdy" (ugh!)
"Allow me to elaborate, my little ones . . ."

Rowdy men get fired
Church 1-What do you mean you don't want to marry the princess of our congregation to a man who says if believing Jesus is Lord and Savior means you're a Christian, well, I'm not a Christian and have no interest in becoming one? That's your job. Just marry them.

Church 2-Elder says: don't preach on sin because it upsets my wife.

Church 3-Oh yes, we want someone who really preaches from the Bible. Translated: Until it challenges the elders to be more than custodians of the church tradition.

After having my family facing homelessness and financial ruin, I preach part-time and work as a temperature control tech/engineer.

What mainstream churches need
Stop the music, sing again.The Scriptures say sing.
Stop the entertainment. Teach the Bible. Most sermons have NO scripture.
How does it help to "feel good" if you are going to hell?

jsingletary is also right. Elders are weak too much.

JS email me at lomaricachurchofchrist.org


Why Xians Are A Joke- from a fallen away
Christians are considered a joke and looked at as a bunch of sheep who follow-the-leader, and then when Mr. Big Mouth t.v. pastor gets caught booking gay prostitutes on his credit card, the rest of you good folks are made to look like undiscerning idiots who are easily fooled. The world judges you by your reckless, ego-driven "leaders" while the countless good deeds of regular Christian folks stays off the radar. The Church needs to get away from the celebrity culture, and its leaders would do well to stay out of the limelight and instead focus attention on their hard-working followers. But fat chance, not while there's bestselling books and t.v. interviews and adulation to be had.

Would Jesus seek the limelight and bother to write best-selling books and conduct interviews, or would he instead exit the stage and devolve power to his followers, and trust his message to weak and flaky people like Simon Peter?


Amen
Very much agree. No where near enough leadership in Christianity today.

totally average joe
Since Jesus Christ kept his ministry very underground.

He didn't change the political stance of the time at all and nurtured his twelve disciples like they were fresh out of the womb.

Go watch some Oprah.

A Bold Church
The biggest problem I have with churches today is that they have a "peace and love" religion. God loves you so you should love everyone. God forgives all your sins so you have nothing to worry about in the future.

God promises to judge and punish as well as love. But too many churches no longer want to tell people that. I've had several people tell me that "God loves me so you have to love me too, regardless of what I do. And since God loves me and forgives me, you have to ignore whatever I do that you think is a sin." I asked one if he asked God to forgive him daily. He said that since God loved him he didn't need to ask for forgiveness. Somewhere along the line God got left out of religion.

We need some hell fire and brimstone preachers again, the ones that can raise the hair on the back of your neck and don't mind doing it. It might get people more interested in obeying God's commands. I said as much to my minister; he gave me a dirty look.

45caliber
Good post. I take issue with only a couple of points:

"The biggest problem I have with churches today is that they have a "peace and love" religion."

Not all churches are like that. Many of them have gone down that road, but not all of them. Some preachers still preach the Bible.

"God forgives all your sins so you have nothing to worry about in the future."

God does forgive sin, but only when we repent. The latter part of that message is missing from many pulpits today.

"Somewhere along the line God got left out of religion."

On that point, I couldn't agree with you more. Very well put!

Missing the message
As usual, many on TH miss the message of Christians, especially when we get serious about what the Bible says God wants from us.

I admit to sometimes being annoyed by Doug myself, but I come back with appreciation because he's writing a lot of what I'm thinking but am too polite to say. Most of the American public is clueless when it comes to Christianity and you're so clueless you think you actually know things you don't. It's like my trying to give directions to someone in Cleveland when I've never set foot in Ohio. My confidence won't make my directions any more informed.

So, Doug is saying rather ascerbically what I and quite a few Christians I know are thinking (we do talk, btw, and most of us are more than capable of thinking a thought without our pastor's guidance). I'll post again to elaborate.

Missing the message Pt 2
Someone up above commented that a militant Christian church is as scary as militant Islam, which just goes to show you what people do NOT know about Christianity but think they do. It's sad that you-all act upon information you've read on the Huffington Post.

Jesus didn't push a political agenda and, to be honest, Christians don't need to. We do need to be involved in politics or find ourselves silenced as nearly happened in the early 70s. But, I have no desire (and don't know any other Christians who do) to hear my pastor preach on whether to vote for Obama or McCain. He doesn't need to and we wouldn't listen anyway. What I want to hear from my pastor (and all Christian pastors) is the "radical" idea that the gospel can change lives if we'll just tell our neighbor about it. Unfortunately, in part because of laziness by churches and individual Christians and in part because of the semi-heretical ideas of the emergent church movement, many Christians don't know what we believe anymore. We don't read the Bible, we don't gather for Bible study, we don't contemplate the Scripture and apply it to our lives. That's apostasy! Reading the BIble and applying it to our lives is what led to the Reformation. Someone else noted that all the denominations in the country couldn't agree. They don't need to. The First Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakening both caused transformations in society ACROSS denominational lines. You people think Evangelicals need some human leadership to tell us what to believe, but we already have a Leader Who takes care of that. Doug is only expressing what many of us in the pews have been thinking for years and that came from the same source -- Jesus Christ's gospel.

What would the results be?
Changed lives.

Maybe abortion would be no less "legal" than it is today, but there would be a whole lot fewer because in a 3rd Great Awakening young people would embrace the idea of sexual purity as an honor to God and wait for the fun stuff until marriage.

Maybe some people would be empowered by their new relationship with Jesus to get off drugs and alcohol, get jobs and establish homes rather than living off the dole.

Maybe scientists would become honest once more, and change their profession to be open to inquiry into subjects that are not "politically correct". You know, like the flip-side evidence against global warming and evolution.

Maybe the character of a presidential candidate would come to mean more than the dollars in his war chest or the color of his skin.

Maybe Christians would take the gospel to Muslims and God would so change their belief system one individual at a time that in 100 years there'd be so few Muslims we wouldn't have to worry about their militancy.

Maybe ...

brazen language
It's a lot to read at once. But I understand his desire to get the 'plain and simple' to be more bold and challenging ! It's certainly needed with the contrasts that are visible these days. The colorful language almost borders on that which is considered impolite at best . But I think he wants to get everyones attention, not those who are just considered 'proper' in their dialog . We do need powerful speakers who are Bold, Men of God, not afraid to face the public's ridicule of themselves. Consider what Moses had to endure, what Paul so long ago went through. How many pastors do we have to day who can honestly say they are willing to be bold, and faithful and stand up to the way of the world, and conqure it by FAITH ? Only Strong men of GOD can do that and I don't necessairly mean 'physical muscle,' I mean spiritual muscle who know how to employ their obedience to God to allow HIM to fully work in their lives and be the ones that God can use to motivate the congregations to do the job they are intended to do !! I am among those who need to be more obedient and be more bold, tough, and yes I am a 'sister' in the FAITH, not a minister . So if we could have bold congregations too, that would indeed have an impact on the 'lost' who need a STRONG example to follow and not the 'weak' as man sees weak, or better yet, let GOD be the ONE who works through their weakness to be STRONG in them. Confound the worldly wise,to bring them to their knees, and seek GOD for the Path they should follow.

No Need to Re-invent the Wheel
The church for which you are longing already abounds in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

True, tough, and transformational.

Don't descend on me with all your tired old complaints. Seek and ye shall find.

Giles for President 2008
Rock on Giles! Everything you say is smack on! Keep up the good work and PLEASE put me on your email list should you give the thought of running for office.

Peace,

JesusFreak

KG
The strength Doug speaks of is not found in legalism, even if it were not birthed in a false teaching.

It is found in a man who have given his all to God. DL Moody said the world has yet to see what God will do with one man fully committed to Himself.

When one is fully aware of the depth of depravity from which he has been saved, the height of love to which he is delivered, and the lengths that love went to rescue him, his only correct response ought to be full and complete surrender.

That is the source of true Christian Strength.

Thank you Doug, as always, for your words and encouragement.
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