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Monday, May 19, 2008
Dinesh D'Souza :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gay Rights vs. Democracy
by Dinesh D'Souza
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It is the essence of democracy that people should be able to decide the moral rules that govern the nature of a community. If people don't have that power, then they are living under an autocracy.

True, this majority rule is not unlimited. It is limited by what the government has the power to do. Consequently the majority cannot, in general, vote to seize the homes and accumulated savings of rich people. Leaving aside exceptional cases, government cannot mandate how parents how should raise their children. These kinds of power lie outside the scope of government in a free society.

Majority rule is also circumscribed by individual rights. But these are the rights clearly specified in the Constitution. A majority of citizens cannot prevent an individual from voting because voting is a basic right, as is the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and so on. The state is constitutionally prohibited from undermining these enumerated rights.

Now the high court of California has made gay marriage into a right that is immune from restriction by the majority of citizens in the state. We already know what California citizens think about gay marriage: they oppose it. A referendum outlawing gay marriage was passed with the support of the state's voters. More than 60 percent of voters cast their ballots against gay marriage.

How, then, can a court invalidate the referendum and over-rule the will of the people? Basically through a kind of legal fraud. The court has to pretend that there is a right to gay marriage even though it is nowhere evident in the state constitution. Read the constitution, hold it up to the light, squeeze lemon juice on it--you won't see a right to gay marriage in there. It is simply not an enumerated right, nor is it a right that can be clearly derived from other enumerated rights.

In issuing its ruling the California court appealed to the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The basic logic is that gays have a right to be treated like everyone else. But just like everyone else, gays do have the right to marry. They have the right to marry adult members of the opposite sex! What gay activists want is something else: the right to marry members of the same sex. This is not a right currently enjoyed by anyone. What these gay activists seek is not equal treatment but rather to change the definition of marriage.

But states have a legitimate right to define marriage. State legislatures, drawing on tradition and appealing to the values of their constituents, have defined marriage in a very particular way. Marriage requires a) two people who are b) of legal age and c) not closely related to each other who are d) one male and one female. Note that this definition excludes people who want to marry children, or guys who want to marry their sisters, or Muslims who want to take four wives, or that strange guy who wants to marry his dog.

Now gay activists, with the acquiescence of the California high court, want to remove one of the criteria of marriage while keeping all the rest. Yet if it’s discriminatory to gays to require that marriage be between a man and a woman, why isn’t it discriminatory to Mormons and Muslims to require that it remain between two people? Isn’t incestuous marriage also between “consenting adults” who have a right to equal protection of the laws? And why doesn’t the Fourteenth Amendment protect the fellow who wants to walk down the aisle with his poodle on the grounds that “I love my dog and my dog loves me”?

The point is not that gay marriage is indistinguishable from child marriage or polygamy. The point is that any definition, and marriage is no exception, includes some people and excludes others. Consequently it’s unreasonable to say that gays have a constitutional right to over-ride the definition but other groups do not. The court’s real justification seems to have little to do with constitutional reasoning and everything to do with an assertion of political power.

Political power has its place, and that place is in the legislative and executive domain. So in the California high court decision, we see liberal jurisprudence subverting the legislature and the will of the people in order to achieve its ideological agenda. This is not about whether you think gays should be allowed to marry. If you think they should, go ahead and vote for candidates who support gay marriage. But you should still oppose the manufacture of bogus rights in order to reach a result that democracy would not by itself allow.

Attempting to insulate themselves from the political fallout, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama said very little about California’s legalization of gay marriage, muttering only that they have long opposed the idea. The real question, however, is what they would do to express this opposition. What would a President Obama do, for instance, to protect traditional marriage? Here the answer appears to be: nothing!

In the past Democrats have always appreciated courts doing their dirty work when it comes to issues like abortion, pornography, prostitution and gay rights. This way Democrats can advance their permissive agenda without having to take political responsibility for voting against the values of a majority of voters. It’s time to make the Democrats pay for this in the November election.

I know that there are gays who desperately want gay marriage, and in a way I'm happy for them. But at the same time I'm sad for constitutional democracy, which suffered a grievous blow at the hands of the California high court.

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About The Author
Dinesh D'Souza's new book Life After Death: The Evidence is published by Regnery.
 
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Excellent
This is the best column I've read on this topic. Unlike other columnists, D'Souza resisted the temptation to argue mostly in social and religious terms; this is really about a poor court decision.

But I would have left out the dog example just because it's clear to anyone outside PETA that the dog is incapable of consenting to marriage, and even homosexual activists agree that consent should be required.

Where there's a Will
there's venom. If you read the author's tone as being rabid, you're delusional. The clearly argued thesis, marshaled evidence, and fair tone will not be lost on anyone, save those with their own agenda, who brook no dissent, nor listen to other's ideas.
By the way, "8 YEARS AGO" may seem like Jurassic Park times, but rule by judicial fiat has been on the Liberal's radar much longer than that.

will
"rabidly anti-gay"???

You might try reading the column before you post. You'll notice this sentence:

"I know that there are gays who desperately want gay marriage, and in a way I'm happy for them."

Sounds like he loves the sinner even though he hates the sin. But you don't make such distinctions, do you? I guess you don't get such nuances. Or more likely, it's just convenient for you to ignore what he wrote and indulge your persecution complex. Everyone's out to get you, will.

If someone does not approve of your behavior, that does not mean he must dislike or hate you.

King Liberal writes (sort of):
"You know that the judges behind the deciosn (sic) were Republicans, right?"
-----

Yeah? So what?

The "Governator" of California has an "R" after his name, too - yet he caucuses with the Dems.

In California - everything is bizarre.

Let me qualify
Let's remember that the 9th circuit court, the one that the Supreme Court has reversed more than any other, contains the ilk of judicial fiat more clearly than any other. A Republican judge in that area might qualify as a "Naderite" in most others.

It Will Be Interesting...
...to see how Californians vote this fall on whether or not to make the one/man-one/woman definition of marriage an amendment to the state constitution. No doubt the 61% majority has eroded since Prop 22 of 2000.

However, commentators here in CA are predicting that the large Hispanic and Asian communities will come down on the side of the traditional marriage amendment. This judicial fiat may even be a reason these groups will consider voting for McCain.

Time will tell. In the meantime, there will be a battle royal on all sides of the issue.

K.G.
It's not even verified that it WILL make it on the ballots this year. But I'm ready.

Also. on the ballots by November or no, the marriages will begin next month (just ask Ellen). So many gay couples will become LEGALLY married by November no matter what.

Higene
What are you saying? That according to the constitution anybody can marry anybody? That the freedom to swim in the ocean is equivalent to defining the marriage contract?


Gay Marriage
According to our Lord a man laying with a man is the worst sin against the flesh you can make. I'm not God and cannot judge you but the very instant you die you will know how wrong you were. We are commanded to pray for each other and I will pray for your souls. A perverted heart and perversion on this Earth are not tolerated by our Lord. Don't live for today for your soul lives on and on for eternity. Hell is not a place your soul would ever want to be for just one minute let alone an eternity. So twist it all you like but you cannot change the Lord's will. Hear His words.

AJB
Regarding gay sex as the "worst sin".

Leviticus tells us that gay sex, mixing fabrics and eating shellfish in the Jerusalem area are all equally abhorrent in the eyes of that great dictator in the sky.

Stop being a drama queen. It's just sex. No cosmic significance. Let it go.

AJB
You have a right to your beliefs, but if you cite the Bible to as a rationale for law, to be consistent you would have to have laws preventing divorce, adultery and fornication, just to name a few sins proscribed by the Bible that are far more disruptive to society and society's children than gay marriage.

I'm not defending any of the above. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. It's so much easier to attack gays because there are relatively few of them. Hetero sexual behavior has a far more profound upon society because of the sheer numbers.

I agree but
Lestat 12:32 AM EST
Subject: Excellent


But I would have left out the dog example just because it's clear to anyone outside PETA that the dog is incapable of consenting to marriage, and even homosexual activists agree that consent should be required.
----

I read his point about the dog as the extreme it could be taken if we are not allowed to define marriage in any way.

To gain a marriage lic. everyone has some obligation to live up to its requirements.
And Marriage was created by the Church and recognized by the Law, with specific limits on age and existing relationships for us all.

If its illegal to define marriage as between man and woman, then it holds true its illegal to define marriage for anyone


Re-definition
We live in an era of re-naming and re-defining. Just because someone says they are a squirrel doesn't mean I have to call them a squirrel. To do so takes me, and them, and any children who might be watching, away from truth and into unreality.

I Agree With AJB
There is no hypocrissy in his reply. Any sin without remission will send a soul to Hell. Adulterers aren't openly seeking a protected status like homosexual activists are either. Most adulterers aren't strutting around with their heads in the air, touting adulterer pride either.

From what I gather in the Bible, homosexual behavior is perhaps one of the lowest points of human depravity, because I don't see where God personally wiped a city off the map because of adultery, but there is one example where homosexual behavior triggered such an event. Paul the apostle also expounded at length, in the first chapter of Romans, on homosexual behavior. He referred to such individuals as being given over to reprobate minds.

With California and the nation poised on the brink of disaster, we should be trying to please God, not trying to rile Him.

The U.S. Isn't Governed By The Bible
If homosexuals are condemned to hell (along with the shellfish eaters and the wearers of cotton/polyester shirts), that's God's affair. Similarly marriage is appropriately a religious distinction, and the government shouldn't be involved in religion.

So, let the homosexuals get civil unions from the state, and let the heterosexuals get civil unions from the state. Leave marriage a private affair. The words "mind your own business" used to be proudly spoken among conservatives, but no more.

Silver Lion from Ohio, you are correct about California. It's going to have a massive earthquake. But you'd better be careful about blaming it on that state's sins, because the next time Ohio is hit by an outbreak of tornadoes, people might come looking for the skeletons in your closets.

Or how about Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas? Good, solid Republican states. Constantly getting tornados. God's judgment on Oklahoma for having the highest divorce rate in the country, no doubt. But what are we to say of Hurricane Katrina? Yes, it wiped out the wicked city of New Orleans, but it wasn't terribly kind to the righteous in Mississippi, was it?

If we separated marriage and civil unions, the church gets its way and the state extends equal protection of the law to homosexuals. Not to polygamists or dog marryers, but to homosexuals. I'm o.k. with that. I think it's about time we did it.

But I don't think the state should give the USDA stamp of approval, either. Not their job. Since when do free people need any state to tell them what's sanctified? The only reason this is a problem is because people choose to make it one.

Marriage is a legal contract
The state and church have no business sticking their nose in it.

What was that about separation of ....
church and state? It seems to me that the same folks who cry foul about involving the church in anything at all, are the first to insist the government force the same sacred institution bestow legal rights upon them.

lets be fair
ok ill buy your arguement if you will promise, no finers crossed now, that if the next referendum in california suppoerts the idea of gay marriage. you will do everthing in your power to use your considerable weight to see to it that nothing happens to thae approval??? deal/????

AJB
>According to our Lord a man laying with a man is the worst sin against the flesh you can make.

Leviticus merely demands stoning for homosexuality. Isn’t blasphemy worse, scripturally speaking? If I were to say, for example, that I deny that Jesus is anyone’s saviour and that god is a figment of the imaginations of the deluded, does that not only require death but also guarantee that I have no hope of redemption?

Stuart

Marley
>The state and church have no business sticking their nose in it.

But it would be fun having that on video.

Stuart

Ennumerated Rights
I'll assume that Dinesh is referring to the US Constitution and not that bloated CA Constitution. If so, it is painful to hear a conservative argue for the attenuation of individual rights. Hamilton, in Federalist 84, noted that it was ridiculous to limit a power of government that did not exist. He further argued that just the mention of certain rights stipulated the the existence of governmental power and would lead to regulation of those rights. Does anyone now doubt that all of those rights listed in the first ten amendments have been severely regulated? Even Madison's ninth amendment has not prevented good conservatives like Dinesh for searching for ennumerated rights when he should be looking for ennumerated powers.

That said, Dinesh eventually gets around to the correct argument in this case. Marriage has for hundreds of years been a civic institution, and therefore democratic in nature. As long as citizens are treated equally before the law, the people have the right and responsibility to democratically regulate marriage. This ruling may certainly have the opposite effect that gay-rights folks desire if it produces a backlash similar to Roe v Wade.

Irrelevant and Un Constitutional
As usual the California court is "stuck on stupid". The concept of Marriage is a product religion. The U.S. Constitution (according to the left) mandates a "Separation of Church and State". Therefore the Court has no authority to rule on marriage. If they want to rule on a quasi-marriage (aka civil union) they have every right to do so. But this current decision by the California circus is indeed unconstitutional.

D'Souza = Majoritarian tyranny
--
Says Dr. D'Souza:

"It is the essence of democracy that people should be able to decide the moral rules that govern the nature of a community. If people don't have that power, then they are living under an autocracy....

"Majority rule is also circumscribed by individual rights. But these are the rights clearly specified in the Constitution. A majority of citizens cannot prevent an individual from voting because voting is a basic right, as is the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and so on. The state is constitutionally prohibited from undermining these enumerated rights."



Now that's a curiously *NON*-conservative brand of nominal "conservatism," don'tcha think? Totally ignores the 9th and 10th Amendments of the Bill of Rights, in that it takes a God-damnably restrictive view of individual rights, attempting to use the U.S. Constitution as a choke-chain on the INDIVIDUAL AMERICAN CITIZEN rather than as a restraint upon government power.

As always, the "social" pseudoconservative is nothing more than a baldfaced thug campaigning for the absolute tyranny of the majority.



=========
"BENJAMIN MARTIN: Why should I agree to trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away?"

-- Robert Rodat (screenplay) *The Patriot* (2000)


"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."

-- John Adams


"Does history record any case in which the majority was right?"

-- Robert A. Heinlein

California vs Massachusetts
What happened to the gay marriage ruling from Massachusetts? Isn't it the same thing?

Can other states refuse to recognize gay marriage licenses issue from Calif & Mass? Will this become another Supreme Court battle?

Legal immigrant

Jon - Civil and religious
--
Says Jon:

"The concept of Marriage is a product [of] religion."


Then why does civil government in EVERY STATE OF THE UNION require a government-issued marriage license, and most require serochemical screening for sexually transmitted disease (STD)?

Moreover, does the institution of marriage not pre-date the earliest days of Judaism (not to mention Christianity)?

People have been getting married (including same-sex marriages) for a helluva lot longer than organized religion has been around, and without recourse to anything resembling the "JudeoChristian heritage" of Western civilization.

Why are all you "social" pseudoconservatives such speactacular cement-heads when it comes to anything resembling historical literacy? You guys call to mind the Qur'an-memorizing *fellahin* of World Wide Woggery, blind to anything but your Bible, and stunningly stupid in the bargain.

Is that a pre-requisite? A Stanford-Binet score above 82 disqualifies anyone from membership in the "social" pseudoconservative ranks?




========
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

-- Galileo Galilei

Big Dog
I was going to make a similar point re: Roe v Wade. That decision not only caused a backlash, but it ultimately doused a growing grassroots movement to repeal the ban on abortion - some twenty states had already legalized abortion by 1973. I doubt very much that abortion would have as much opposition as it does today had that democratic movement continue to grow. As it was, with nothing left to fight for, it withered.

I support the idea that homosexuals should be allowed to marry. (Offering heterosexual marriage as a cold, legal substitute seems a bit like offering the salvation of the Catholic Church to a Jew during the time of the Inquisition - shame on you Dinesh.) But I agree with the author that this battle has to been won at the ballot box.

Nature's Perspective
Strictly, from Nature's perspective, the main purpose of marriage is PROCREATION, ergo between opposite sex.
Homosexuality is not a "gender", it's simply deviant behaviour.
We treat animal husbandry with far greater care and respect than our own, but when a bull shows homosexual tendencies we quickly process him into hamburger...

Dinesh D'Souza
Kind sir,

OUR Federal constitution proclaims us to be a Republic.

From the very beginning, there were those who wished to pervert us into a Democracy. A Democracy is essentially 'mob-rule' and cannot last much more than 200 years, as has been proven several times in the past.

We were still mostly a Republic until Pres. Lincoln.

After Lincoln we have steadily, and increasingly become more and more democratic, and this is what clearly explains our dying country.

We only have a few more years (I hope more, not less) left, before the country deteriorates into a Dictatorship.

OBTW,

There is NO RIGHT TO VOTE in the USA Constitution.

The words "Separation of Church and State" are not in the USA Constitution.

And the USA Constitution does not mention Marriage.

Please feel free to prove me wrong, but yelling "Not, Not, Not." will not accomplish this onerous task.

Yelling, "Nanner, nanner, nanner," won't do it either.

Morality
God has already determined morality. God's word is the same today as it will be tomorrow. I find it extremely offensive that the gay community thinks it could set the standards for morality. What you do in your private life is your decision and you will have to answer for it, but please do not give yourself so much credit.

Everyone
Good morning.

Stop by the Abbey, got some new parodies for y'all to enjoy.

Click on my name, or use the following link:

fountainabbey.blogtownhall.com

Dinesh is right
The federal government is only supposed to have the limited powers that are granted to it in the Constitution, with the remainder of the powers remaining in the states or the people. The people of California, acting through the state, have the right to define marriage and to establish rules that go along with marriage. The California court has ignored the law in order to impose its own views on the people. Unfortunately, once the laws have been destroyed, they will not be there to protect any of us.

Good point Will
another reason those of us still sane enough to resist that gay rights garbage wouldn't mind selling Kalifornia to Mexico for some oil.

SJ Doc
Implying, of course, that Dottie has direct and infallible knowledge of what God "has already determined [in terms of] morality."

Its called the Bible. Dottie does indeed have the direct line. Thanks for playing.

Dinesh, where to...
begin? First off, we are a constitutional republic and not a true democracy. That pesky constitution exists to protect the minority from the majority. Any true democracy is an example of might makes right.

Next, this is not a legal fraud. It is a well thought out verdict that is based upon the cal. constitution. Before making such statements you'd do well to read the verdict.

As for the definition of marriage, this is dealt with, ad nauseum, in the decision that you've apparently failed to read.

Your statement that gays are free to marry members of the opposite sex is no different than when persons of different color were free to marry people of the same color 60 years ago before perez v sharp. This puts you in the same category as racists. Are you really this bigoted???

The next statement is the most vile that you've made. You have tried to compare gay marriage to pedophelia. Shame, shame. Gay marriage is about the rights of 2 consenting adults, not child rape. There is a fundamental basis to our legal system that helps to define our personal liberties. It is called the harm principle. You might want to learn about it.

Dinesh, you come off as a bigot who is trying to use his religion to trump the personal liberties of other persons, not to mention other religions. There are some religions that fully support gay marriage in their doctrines. Who are you to walk all over their 1st amendment rights?

This issue is NOT about
gay marraige, it is about forcing the rest of us to accept something that has always been a perversion as normal.

It makes a mockery of the bedrock of society, the family and undermines our historic values like every other liberal idea that ever came out of Ca.

I don't really care what these people do privately, but don't ask me to view it or them as normal, it isn't.

A simple solution
This could all be solved simply by using the following text as the 28th amendment to the Constitution:

"Nothing in this Constitution, nor in the constitutions of the several states, nor in the governing documents of the territories of the United States shall, without expressed and specific wording to the contrary, be implied, inferred, or construed so as to include a right to marry unless the parties to be married consist of one man and one woman, both of legal age, neither closely related to the other, neither in an existing marriage, and both giving their full consent."

This would have the effect of not expressly prohibiting gay marriage at the federal level, while not allowing unaccountable, unelected judges to exceed their authority by making laws. It would put the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the politicians or the people, where it belongs.

I wrote a couple of pieces giving my opinion and observations on this matter in my blog. One before the California Disaster and one after.

http://happyjake.blogtownhall.com/

Solo610 - The Bible? Which edition?
--
Says Solo610:

"Its called the Bible. Dottie does indeed have the direct line."


...which assumes that if Dottie's particular version of the Bible is correct (King James Version, no doubt? Which leaves out a bunch of books and other materials my Douay version includes) and she has indeed RTFM'd accurately, we're supposed to accept *her* word - or anyone else's - for correct interpretation?

And what of other equally holy scripture out there, including the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutra Pitaka, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Rigveda, and the Book of the Dead?

What, you Christian (almost certainly Protestant) "social" pseudoconservatives have the absolute dead-from-the-neck-up certainty that you (and *ONLY* you) have the only conception of God's will that is valid, and you're completely infallible in your stupidity?

Hey, now there's a level of arrogance that supposedly went down the oubliette with the Divine Right of Kings.



=========
"It's an oral history. It was passed down, word-of-mouth, father to son, from Adam to Seth, from Seth to Enos, from Enos to Cainan, for 40 generations, a growing, changing, story, it was handed down, word-of-mouth, father to son. Until Moses finally gets it down on lambskin. But lambskins wear out, and need to be recopied. Copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of an oral history passed down through 40 generations....

"You can't put a grocery list through that many translations, copies, and re-telling, and not expect to have some big changes in the dinner menu when the kids make it back from Kroger's.

"And yet people are killing each other over this written word. Here's a tip: If you're killing someone in the name of God — you're missing the message.

-- Nick Annis

Curtal Friar
Now I will be singing and laughing all day! Good one at the Abbey!

DA
Yes, this is a Constitutional Republic, and the constitutions of this republic put the law-making capacity in the hands of the legislatures (who are elected by the people) not the judges.

Show me anywhere in any constitution in any state in this country that expressly states that there is a right to marry someone of the same sex as you. (Key word: "Expressly")

This issue is completely and utterly unrelated to the issue of interracial marriage. In interracial marriage, the parties were still two consenting adults of the opposite sex who were unrelated. Under any circumstance two consenting adults of the opposite sex who are unrelated should be allowed to marry. THAT ban was based solely on an accidental trait of birth. Even if we allow that homosexual tendencies are an accidental trait (which is not necessarily the case, but that doesn't matter here) homosexual BEHAVIOR is voluntary. The so-called "right" you are seeking is based solely on behavior that is not normal.

Attempts to distinguish gay marriage from child marriage (which IS legal in a number of countries), polygamy (ditto), and other, more perverted forms of "marriage" is little more than a cute marketing technique. You'll claim "Slippery Slope Fallacy" when I say this, but this is only one step in the complete destruction of our value system as a nation. It'll take years, but we'll see major changes in what marriage means if we continue on this path. (By the way the "slippery slope" from tolerating gays to allowing marriage has already happened, just as intended.)

One more thing: the worst dictatorships in the world were based on a small minority, not the majority.

On the Bible
Homosexuality is called "Wicked" every time it is mentioned in the Bible. Both in the Old and New Testaments (particularly Paul's letter to the Romans). That's whether or not you are Catholic (Douay or New American translations) or Protestant (King James or New International Version).

Calif. Clash Over GOP ‘Values’

Is this the new GOP?

NPR-California Republicans are headed for a showdown over the direction of the party that could highlight national schisms over gay rights, gun control and abortion.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger wants the state GOP platform — the party’s statement of core values — boiled down to as little as a single page focusing on lowering taxes, limiting the size of government and building a strong national defense.

A centrist, the actor-governor describes himself as a “post-partisan” who wants to bridge the political divide that often leaves the state capital of Sacramento gridlocked.

But some conservatives see his move as an attempt to undercut party positions on everything from traditional marriage to opposition to abortion rights.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/calif-clash-over-g op-values

Rights v. Democracy
This is truly an interesting subject! From the earliest philosophers (Thales?), the distinctions between laws and mores have been muddled. Perhaps this is a good thing (am I redundant or is this another oxymoron?) The point I try to maintain is that the dialectic is, of itself, a worthy thing.

Good morning,Curtal...
...click on my name,and I will guarantee you absolutely nothing will happen!

Bible Quotes
Gen 19: 4-7
4 Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old--all the people to the last man--closed in on the house.
5 They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them."
6 Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him,
7 he said, "I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing."

Rom 1:27
The males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 "We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,
9 with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,
10 the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

None so blind ...
There are none so blind as those who will not see! Laws should not be designed to legislate morality, but designed to maintain a safe, secure,and free country, while providing for the continuation of our society based on our Constitution and Republic form of government. Thus, the courts have no right to go outside these clear bounds and try to legislate gay marriages.

Slippery slope?
"You have tried to compare gay marriage to pedophelia. Shame, shame. Gay marriage is about the rights of 2 consenting adults, not child rape."

I would suggest you compare the public (and published) stance of NAMBLA with the gay activist community's agenda in the past.

There's nothing wrong with the slope, if we would only stop greasing the soles of our shoes!

Query
Besides disease and societal decay, what does homosexuality offer?...

and why should the normal 95% of the country bow to 5% with a mental disorder?

America is being deceived
It would be wise to remember C.S.Lewis' book, The Screwtape Letters. The devil has so many in America in his grasp. Right has become wrong and vice versa. Calamities and disasters are all around us--chastisements that God, in His Divine Mercy, is still trying to get our attention. But we'll have none of that. The devil's time grows short and he is certainly stepping up his attempts to gain every soul that he possibly can. A good way to do that is through "tolerance" and "diversity." Who could argue with those powerful and morally upright words??

seawolf
you stated "I don't really care what these people do privately, but don't ask me to view it or them as normal, it isn't."

They are no longer ASKING you to view it as normal - they are DEMANDING by force of law that you view it as normal.

California supreme court
Note Small "s" and small "c". This ultra left-wing collection of radicals should be placed in charge of the search for bin Laden as anyone who can find the right to this type of perverted relationship in the United States Constitution could discover the situs of Osama in a flash!

kimberly writes:
"besides more death and immoral lies what does pro-'staying the mistake' country have to offer?"

Your post makes no sense at all, neither did you answer the simple questions I asked.

You must be among the 20% you spoke of, yes?

Homosexual marriage
The Constitution of the United States does not guarentee the right to vote. It does however state that the individual states, who grant the right to vote, can not discriminate about who has the right to vote based on color, creed, sex, or income. But there is no right to vote guarenteed within the US Constitution, this has been discussed in law schools for 150 or more years.

The founding fathers were leaning towards having a test for who had the right to vote. Matter of fact it might not be too bad of an idea. A test of govenment might be a good test to see who votes as well as wo govens.

Sheeeesh: I suppose if you had
a gun to my head I would choose democracy, but " o enlightened one", can I have both. Is that too much to ask for you twit.


The lie of DD
“It is the essence of democracy that people should be able to decide the moral rules that govern the nature of a community.”

No. This is inaccurate and false.

Our Constitution is about the individual civil liberties of the people of the nation. In its most objective view, the individual pursuit of happiness has nothing to do with the subjective morals or values of another individual.

Laws are created to limit others from infringing on each person’s civil liberties to live his or her life as he or she sees fit. While these laws are mere consequences for those who choose to infringe on the civil liberties of others, deterrents at times to be sure, they are objective to each person’s life regardless of gender, religion, et.al.

DD wants you and his cronies to conflate the idea that democracy is about a majority rule of ideas; this is false and if you think it’s not then you need to take a history lesson about what the court system is all about.

The courts are to be objective and impartial on their rulings, seeking to maintain individual civil liberty while protecting an individual from a mob mentality majority. Morals and values are subjective at every juncture and play no part in such rulings.

You can decide what morals/values you have in your life but are in no way are adjudicated the warrant and license to impose them onto others for whatever purpose you conjure up in your mind; be it god, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Shared values/morals are not credential for imposing them upon others.

If marriage is afforded to ANY couple then it is afforded to all who wish to participate. If your distaste for homosexuality drives you to oppose such action, then ALL marriage must be nullified in the eyes of justice for any government benefit/tax allocation.

Pluralistic tax dollars cannot be relegated to non-pluralistic endeavors. When they are, they should be challenged in court to remove such allocations.

Let us not forget...
Justice Scalia's remarks just last fall in which he pointed out that the pendulum does in fact swing both ways. If the homosexual lobbyists continue in their efforts to destroy traditional marriage. If they continue to seek legislation which allows them to peddle their deranged lifestyle "choice" to children as young as kindergarten age. If they continue to support organizations such as NAMBLA, then don't be surprised to find the majority appoint justices that are so conservative that "homosexuality" is once again considered a mental illness and homosexual practice is once again outlawed.

A autocracy will never survive in America.

To the homosexual community, you have opened the floodgates. Better hang on for dear life because you have pushed to far.

Will, where's the beef?
You didn't respond at all to the articles talking points on judicial activism.

You compare a State's referendum vote to polls?

The point of the article was WE THE PEOPLE vs WE THE COURTS!

No matter where you stand on the gay issue, the fact that one court overruled the will of the people AGAIN, should be an alarm for ANY American citizen. It means less power to the people and for the people.

It was an excellent article, and you could lump any ideology or agenda in this article and it still comes down to judicial activism, far far beyond the restraints applied to them in the Constitution.

This is a threat to you too Will, but you're too blinded by your own hatreds to realize it.

Normal?
You are personally deciding what is normal and you want others to live by it?

You need your head examined along with a decent education in sciences.

Definitions
One facet that D'Souza hints at, but doesn't cover, is that there has been no legal recognition of homosexuality as a distinct state of being (much less as a right). Legal acceptance of gay marriage implies legal acceptance of homosexuality itself, which has no judicial precedent (save to outlaw homosxual ACTS).

Lestat
Not to worry about consent. The California Supreme Court can easily rule that wagging a tail is sufficient evidence for consent. Then I could walk down the aisle with Rover, and as long as she (or he, since it doesn't matter now)wags her tail after I say "I do" then we are on our way to marital bliss. I would draw the line though when the minister say "Now you can lick the bride."

Constitutions, statutes and "gay rights"
Marriage is not a constitutional right, so it's not a constitutional question -- the judiciary lacks jurisdiction. Homosexual marriage, like abortion, is properly a statutory matter for the people to decide through their elected representatives.

DD fails to mention, however, that there is no such thing as "gay rights." Everyone has the same rights. You don't acquire extra rights by claiming to belong to one group or another.

America still great...
One of the great things about America, and to refute the argument that we're not a democracy, is that the people can amend the constitution (either state or federal)anytime. Thus, Californians will eventually decide the issue since I'm pretty sure that it will be up for an amendment vote eventually. The people's power also lie in their control of legislatures. When the people don't know enough to vote for the right people, then we suffer the consequences of our indifference. There's still no better way of government in the world.

Will's comment to AJB
Will said: "It's just sex. No cosmic significance."

Then why do gays want/need marriage?

1000 rights
I have heard it said that marriage affords in one way or another 1000 rights that gays who cannot marry do not have. If that's true, then there are 1000 rights that I as a single heterosexual person do not have. Why am I discriminated against? Why can I not "marry" another heterosexual person of the same sex to get those "rights"? Why can I not be the beneficiary of my friend's health insurance she gets through her employer, for example. I need health insurance as much as any gay person. Why does my sexual orientation dictate what rights I may or may not get?

Umm...what democracy?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but we don't live in a democracy. It's not found in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence nor any other founding document. In fact, the Founders specifically did NOT want a democracy.

As for tying this ruling, I wonder if the writer bothered to read the 10th amendment. Anything not granted to the federal government nor prohibited to the States is left up to the states and people. If a state wants to legalize gay marriage, so be it. The federal Constitution does not protect nor prohibit the right to gay marriage.

Nam65-66
whats the deal? Chill out! You should be lambastin whackos here. And maybe you should click on curtal's blog. Theres some pretty good stuff there.

hiomosexulaity has nothing to do with re
all this converstion about homosexual behavior, including the really foolish statement that it is th most evil thing that a man can do (Think about thatb one for awhil) doesnt apply to me at all, many of you sen to have convind=ced yourself that becuse your partricular choice of a religios book says something or other about anything or other i shoulsbow before it and acept it. NO what your book sayas about homosexuallity or anythign else has nothing to do with me so your attempt to wipe out the possiblity of a little more hppiness in this world by usu=ing it as justification is worthless. my book says homesexual marriage i marally,ethically fine. i have a perfect right to believe this and not attach any religious meaning to it at all. if you are going to convince me that you are right you are going to have to use sdomething other than a book which even its practitioners cant agreeuopon the content . read deuterronomy 10-15 then tell me all about your holy book.

Boring
All you have to do is substitute the word race for gay and you are hearing the same arguements that Conservatives made who opposed interractial marrage and civil rights.

"States Rights."

The consitution provides for equal protection under the law. Courts exist in part to protect the minority from majority, but there is such a thing as a supermajority it is called a consitutional amendment. Conservatives don't really want to push for that because they know it would be defeated. The fact is that every year the number of people in support of gay marrage increases, if you look at trend rather than the static numbers you can see where this will eventually lead. The fact is that most millenials have no problem with Gay Marrage. They lack the "Ick" factor that many of us older folks have.

As they take their place in the majority of voters, being gay will become like being left handed, boring.

Conservatives once again will be on the wrong side of history.

Wrong!!!!
A cheif conservative value is "if you are going to do somthing do it the right way".
California is a democaracy and niether is the USA. You are ignorant of the Pledge of Alligence, as well as the Federalist Papers if you think otherwise.

Gay marriage is wrong. But that does not mean we should follow the Neo Con logic and cut off our nose to spite our face. If the majority of Ca residents wanted to ban heteosexual mariage, we would expect protection from the courts.
WE SHOULD NOT BE HYPOCRITES.
We should simply change the constitution when it does not meet our needs we should NOT ignore it.
A democracy is 2 wolves and sheep deciding what to have for dinner. Thank God our founders where not leftist like the Neo Con.

Origin
As far as I can tell marriage is made by God with a purpose stated and definition thereof. Gays have the freedom by God to choose that lifestyle. But, to hijack the institution of marriage and say it is what they want it to be is nonsense. Gay marriage is not marriage. They can have civil unions or make up anything they so choose under the law and define it for a new word under their terms, but no matter what they want it to be it is not marriage. They just want to hijack it for their own political agenda and acceptance. From what I've read Gay marriage was legalized in Canada and in one year only about 2 or 3 got married in a particular providence where they expected to have thousands upon thousands. It seems they didn't really want gay marriage. They wanted to win a political point. Once they won it was a non issue.

SJ Doc, cite your sources
"... does the institution of marriage not pre-date the earliest days of Judaism (not to mention Christianity)? People have been getting married (including same-sex marriages) for a helluva lot longer than organized religion has been around, and without recourse to anything resembling the "JudeoChristian heritage" ...Why are all you "social" pseudoconservatives such speactacular cement-heads when it comes to anything resembling historical literacy?"

What's the "Doc" stand for? Ph.D., M.D., or vet? Perhaps like "Doctor" Phil a piece of paper from a cereal box? Or maybe short for "document."

What historical document states there were people, including same sex, getting married before organized religion was around? I know of none, unless of course, like Will, you confuse marriage with "just sex."

Cement heads? Yours is sufficient to build a skyscraper.


moral relativism
Living in the land of their own reality the California court has attempted to redefine thousands of years of understanding of "normal" and "abnormal" behaviours. This new "morality" is nothing more that the old immorality dressed up in political correctness and moral relativism.
Call it what you wish: normal, acceptable, freedom from religion or religious influence, your agency, whaterver. It is still what it is and to the majority it is still abnormal. When and if the majority changes their view then, in my opinion, come the major consequences.
This thinking would appear to be 'alive and well' in California.
I only hope that we "don't Californicate America" as a bummper sticker of 20 years ago suggested.

Footnote 52
. . . of the opinion states that the State (California) still has a right not to allow polygamy and incest. It's only a matter of time before this same court, or another equally ideological, throws out those taboos as well.

The opinion wasn't really about gay marriage. It was about 4 arrogant members of the bench saying, "Look what we can do".

THIS
..is the kind of crap that has caused me to leave the Republican party.

Parental Rights?
Just wondering if you can point out the constitutional provision that enumerates the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit...

"Hold it up to a candle, squeeze lemon juice on it...you won't find it...."

Perhaps you should read the 9th amendment...

Jesus
If Homosexuality is so central to the New Testiment,why is jesus not quoted oeven nce speaking about it.

Of course, he does speak about the poor something that conservatices seem not to care about.

Californication
very well put.

I disagree with much of the ...
homosexual agenda. However, I'm reminded that all individuals are to be equal under the law. When governments creat special benefits for two people who decide to marry, I have a problem with the government then deciding who has the opportunity to obtain those benefits through marriage.

I am a conservative Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin. I believe thta marriage is a covenant relationship and that it has been ba$tardize by governments desire to promote it and confer special priveleges upon it. But in a free society, two individuals wishing to enter into a legally binding contract, which is what marrriage has become, should not be denied the opportunity to do so.

Big Dog and Karl, good points.
Dinesh D'Souza, thanks for a well thought out article. Living in a country where only four people decide the moral rules that govern the nature of our community is frightening. The issue is ultimately not who's ox is being gored, but who is doing the goring.

bmr
God is the province of the church. No one is forcing chruches to marry Gay People. We are talking about civil marrage and the legal right that accruse from that legal insitution.

Do what you want in your church, leave religion out of government, and government out of religion as the founders intended.

Did the California Supreme Court

explain what good comes to society from sodomy and other sexual perversions? If no good comes from these types of sexual acts, why should government do anything other than try to reduce the incidence of such acts.

The whole debate reminds me of the
line from The Incredibles.

"When everybody becomes super, then nobody will be super."

IOW, if being gay becomes normal to all, then nobody will be considered gay anymore. It will have become normal.

The problem though is there is always the next group waiting to jump on the so called "rights" train waiting to normalize their agenda on society as a whole. Gay's are just the first train car. Others will follow.

The United Nations is already normalizing their policies on capital punishment and abortion (just two examples) Gun control is coming down the pike as well. They can't decide on a definition of terrorist but can decide for all nations that capital punishment is wrong.