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Tuesday, January 13, 2009
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Guess Who Cares about Dead Palestinians? Jews!
by Dennis Prager
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For those individuals -- such as nearly all members of the world news media -- who, in light of Israel’s invasion of Gaza -- see moral equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians, here are some clarifying thoughts.

First, it would be difficult nearly to the point of impossibility, to find Israeli or other Jews who celebrate the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Jews both within and outside of Israel cringe when they see pictures of dead Palestinian men, women, and children in Gaza. For thousands of years at their Passover seders, Jews have removed wine from their cups to ceremonially weep for the Egyptians -- their erstwhile slave owners for 400 years -- who died during the Jews’ exodus. Jews have never stopped weeping for enemies.

The opposite is the case with the large majority of Palestinians. It would be quite difficult to find many Palestinians who do not celebrate the deaths of Israeli Jews or non-Israeli Jews. This is not only reflected in Palestinian polls that show majority support for terrorism -- and terrorism means killing innocent Jews -- it is also reflected in Palestinian media, Palestinian schools, and Palestinian mosques that routinely glorify murderers of Jews, and refer to all Jews as “monkeys” and the like.

Take for example, Palestinian reaction to the 2001 Palestinian terror bombing of a Jerusalem Sbarro pizzeria in which 15 Jews, five of whom were two sets of parents and their children, were murdered and an additional 130 people were injured, some permanently maimed.

As reported by the Associated Press, a month later, “Palestinian university students opened an exhibition that included a grisly re-enactment” of that mass murder. The students built a replica of the Sbarro pizzeria, with fake blood, splattered pizza, a plastic hand dangling from the ceiling, and a fake severed leg wearing jeans and a bloody black sneaker.

“The exhibit also includes a large rock in front of a mannequin wearing the black hat, black jacket and black trousers typically worn by ultra-Orthodox Jews. A recording from inside the rock calls out: ‘O believer, there is a Jewish man behind me. Come and kill him,’” paraphrasing a verse in the Koran. It became a popular tourist attraction for Palestinians, to which Palestinian parents took their little children.

Here’s the question: Can anyone even imagine Jews, in Israel or anywhere else on earth -- no matter how right-wing they are politically or religiously -- doing something analogous to celebrate the death of Palestinian civilians? I have spoken to Jewish groups on both U.S. coasts since the Israeli invasion of Gaza, and when the subject of Palestinian civilian deaths is mentioned, all I hear is regret and sadness.

This moral chasm that separates Israel from its enemies, and separates the Jews from their enemies, merely confirms what Hamas repeatedly says about itself: “We love death more than the Jews love life.” This motto is so true that Hamas not only doesn’t weep for dead Israelis, it doesn’t weep for dead Palestinians. It uses living Palestinians as human shields and uses dead Palestinians as propaganda. The moral disequilibrium is such that Jews weep for dead Palestinian far more than Hamas does.

The second point to be raised is about perspective.

If during World War II, Western news media had reported German and Japanese civilian casualties in the same detail and with the same sympathy they report Palestinian civilian casualties in Gaza, it is doubtful that the Nazis and the Japanese militarists would have lost that war. Certainly, at the very least, the anti-Nazi, anti-Fascist war effort would have been severely compromised.

The analogy is entirely apt. Hamas is on the same moral level as the two World War II enemies. Do those who condemn Israel for its attacks on Hamas fighters that have tragically resulted in hundreds of civilian Palestinian deaths also condemn the Allied bombings of German and Japanese military targets that resulted in far more civilian deaths? I suspect not since most critics of Israel still regard World War II as a moral war. The overriding issue, therefore, is whether fighting Hamas is moral. If it is, then the unintended death of Palestinian civilians is a tragedy, not an evil (except on the part of Hamas, because it situates its fighters and its missiles among civilians, including schools).

Third, if Hamas had the same ability to bomb Israel as Israel has to bomb Gaza, would the number of Jewish civilians be in the hundreds? Or would there be the Holocaust in Israel that Hamas and its Iranian sponsors dream of?

The answer is so obvious that this consideration alone renders moral Israel’s war to destroy Hamas. In a short period of time Hamas will have more accurate missiles and longer-range ones. One of them could kill a thousand or more. Another one could destroy passenger planes coming into Ben-Gurion Airport, thereby causing foreign airlines to stop flying into Israel. It is that inevitability that Israel is fighting to prevent. But in the morally confused world we live in, only with thousands of Israelis dead, would Israel’s invasion of Gaza be “proportional,” and therefore acceptable. But Israel is more interested in living with world condemnation than in dying with world sympathy.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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No, tom in Wisconsin,
..it's not that I love Israel (why can't you say the name?) more than America the way you are an adherent to nazism over Liberty, it's my sense of justice that has me in the throws of "vile hatred".

It's a values thing. You get that, don't you? For instance: that puppy you are about to torture (which serves as a means to relieve your hatred for things and people you can't control) is of less VALUE than your desire to find release from that which tortures YOU.

Also, as for your (not so)secret desire to join hamas and kill "the jooooooos", I think you would find a request, for us TH readers to take up a collection for your "deliverance", to be most gratifying.

Good luck with that and please, couldja lay off the puppies for a while? You make people cry w/ this sickness of yours.

tsk tsk tom in Wisconsin!
Me thinks the lady (that'd be YOU) doth protest too much. Not seeing nazis everywhere, just in Wisconsin...and Michigan...and Illinois...and parts of the northeast where they can't seem to resist electing them and hiring them to teach their kids from Nazi Pelosis' "universal pre-k" schools on up to college.

Man, you don't get out much do you? Oh, that's right: Wisconsin,low temps, nazis, etc.
Almost forgot...

Okay 2spothipshot
I tire of this and you are not much of a challenge. But let's do a little test:

Do you know how to keep an idiot in a state of fear of the future?

I'll tell you tomorrow.

Tom: Is that you?
Seems as though you spend most of your time defending Palestinians,rejecting credible information and critisizing Israel's right to defend itself.
I had to chuckle when I saw your posts here accussing someone, whom by the way, makes an astute observation about the state of the union, of being deluded(paraphrase).

Guess what, I have been around a bit myself. Somehow I don't think it would matter to you what evidence I, or anyone else presented to corroborate the existence of a very real threat to our Democratic Republic.

In this environment of left wing propaganda, presented as news, one must search for the truth on their own.

You refuse to see it. You write off any information that doesn't suit your pre-concieved conclusions. Hey, believe it or not, Many of us are not wackos who thrive on conspiricies. I spent my life in the military and law enforcement so I had a front row seat to to the decline of our nation at the hands of a different breed of politician.

Saw the results on the mean streets and in the courts.

That Groups like the ACLU, CAIR...are trying to subvert the true nature and charcter of America as our founders established it, is obvious to anyone over 50 who is objective and willing to see.

That the Islamic threat, Unmitigated illegal immigration(many whom have no interest in assimilating), a move towards globalism(our constitution will be null and void), will utlimately destroy America as we know it, is obvious to anyone with an ounce of reason and common sense.

Write on Tom. Hey, I'm still waiting for the source of your erudite observations, considering you are so quick to discount opposing views with your subjective gospel of truth.




Useful Idiots
One thing I don't understand about all the useful idiots who ignore the slaughter in the Congo and Darfur, ignore the rockets falling on Sederot, and rise up in huffy-puffy psuedo-indignation when Israel starts fighting back. Don't they know how the Arabs behave, any country they take over, any chance they get? Don't they know that if, G-d forbid, Israel is ever destroyed, EUROPE, where a lot of these people live, is next on the Islamofascist hit list?

One Neat Thing About It All.
Yes, Dennis, you are right about most of what you write.

There is one interesting aspect to this Arab, Muslim vs. Israeli, Jew, though. Ever wonder why the Palestinian terrorists, or the Hezbolla (who cares how to spell that?), or the Hamas, or Iran, or -- you name 'em -- why any of the Jew-haters don't just use chemicals, gasses, you know, those weapons of mass killings, against those they hate so much?

With so many Arab, Muslims, Palestinians among the Jewish population, and the resulting easy access -- to dump a little poison in the water supply, let's say, or a rocket filled with anthrax, other like-stuff -- why there has not been even the slightest attempt to do so?

The answer to that is -- anybody out there ever heard of a "Samson-something?" Is it true?

It must be.

And I think it's neat.

Michael
You are absolutely right, of course. The muslims who could make the decision to really use WMD that could just possibly wipe out Israel are very aware of the submarine boomers and those nuclear tipped warheads. Last believable estimate i've read was between 40 or 50 nukes in Israel's p[ossession. That was years ago, it may well be 2 or 3 times that now. If Israel sees it is going down, it will turn the ME into a sea of glass. The Arab fat cats may finance and encourage suicide bombers, but they are not about to join them. The danger is some idiot like Ahmadinejad who may actually believe his own rhetoric and choose personal suicide, trusting in time and muslim numbers to eventually recover and carry islam to some sort of triumph.

The good old days

Prager leaves out the fact that Arafat himself saw to it that the Sbarro "art show" was closed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1564188.stm

Wouldn't we all now prefer Arafat and his secular PLO over the current crop of Islamic militants? And I wonder what dragon will rear its head after the Hamas dragon is slain?

Until Israel and her allies take steps to address the real and legitimate concerns of the Palestinians - things like statehood, water rights, control of borders, control of airspace, right of return, etc - we'll soon find out.

Pistol FL.
Actually, I've heard that the leaders of all the Muslim nations, especially the Arab ones, the fat cats, have been put on notice, directly and absolutely, by Israel (quite some time ago), that the "Samson Project" means immediate nuclear anhilation for any of these nation's capital cities, the minute after any of these WMDs are used against the population of Israel.

Sort of like our (USA) deal with the Russians, back when.

ITz3Td52 comments...
What do they mean? You are missing his main point while trying to discredit it...odd!! Are you saying that Arafat wasn't a terrorist and unwilling to kill Jews by the hundreds? Would he not fully support Hamas? Would the situation be different now if Arafat were alive and leading Palestine? If so...what proof would you offer?

This Is A Foreigners Fight !

One Man's Terrorist is Another's Freedom Fighter.

Irgun ,Hamas,The Stern Gang,The PLO.

Israel Firsters,Palestinian Firsters.


William....
Is the MSM not reporting incidents of mass celebrations in Israeli streets after a Palestinian is killed? With hundreds of people walking around American streets who have been there, been in Israeli schools; is there a big cover up of the hate-indoctrination of Israeli children against Palestinians?

We are talking about moral equivalency, here, dude. You got nothing.

Rick

If by "Prager's main point" you mean that most Jews or Israelis do not wish to see needless killing of Palestinian civilians, I neither "missed" it nor do I dispute it. I fully acknowledge that this is the case.

My point was that by failing to address legitimate Palestinian grievances, the Israelis have and will continue to radicalize their enemies. Arafat was certainly a terrorist, but he did eventually come to recognize Israel's right to exist and he was willing to negotiate some sort of compromise to the situation. Hamas appears uncompromising, largely because they are driven by religious zeal - zealotry that did not corrupt the PLO.

Tim...
Same questions. "Freedom Fighters" don't blow up children for fun and (eternal or temporal) profit. That's the point where "Freedom Fighters" get a new name: terrorist.

Hamas has been randomly dropping bombs on Israeli children for years. What would you do, oh preening moralist in complete safety?

I hope you guys popped over to read the Sowell comments on the MidEast today too. A steady diet of common sense might help.

The Game's Afoot Watson!
Nope--The current battle stems from Iran pulling Hamas' puppet strings. Now, the world is looking at the conflict, and not at Iran's Nuclear Program.

After Hamas eats it, Iran probably will instigate more Hizbollah kidnappings and rockets.


RK
This Is A Foreigners Fight.

We need to review United States National Interests in this Middle East Tarbaby and review Foreign Economic Aid and Military Aid to Both Parties.


Tell us about Irgun Operation:

Here's just a few:
July 6 1938 18 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab Melon market in Haifa. -
July 8, 1938 4 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem. -
July 16, 1938 10 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem. -
July 25, 1938 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. -
August 26, 1938 24 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. -
February 27, 1939 33 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa
and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem. -
May 29, 1939 5 Arabs were killed by a mine detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem. -
On the same day 5 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.

Koolmuse
I apologize. I read your "apartheid" post before i noticed it was you who wrote it. The most puzzling thing to me about Obama is the level of trust and confidence his supporters have that he will solve our problems. It is not just why they have this confidence (he has no track record of problem solving) but the total lack of understanding of the enormity of the problems facing us. But you have moved into woo woo land. Obama will end the Arab/Israeli War? Wow. Do you have any idea how? He hasn't given me any details, but maybe you can pass on a few. My sincere advice is be pleased he got elected, but wait for some action to praise AFTER not before he does it.

RK

I did as you suggested and read Doc Sowell's Column. I respect Tom Sowell,especially on Domestic Social Economic Issues.

Now, I suggest you read The Former C.I.A. bin Laden Desk Director Michael Scheuer's Article at: http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=13139

Does Doc Sowell's opinion Trump C.I.A.'s Mike Scheuer's opinion ?

To tom
"How can you sleep when you see nazi's all around my nation, the United States of America?"

Want me to start posting links to liberal statements claiming conservatives to be 'nazis'? You castigate a TH poster for 'seeing Nazis all around my nation', but I bet you don't possess enough commitment to principle to castigate your own comrades.

This is why we don't take your ilk seriously. We KNOW you don't mean any of your words; you put on Principles like cheap clothing, and discard them just as easily.

This should make you sick
As an American, the following should make all of us sick to our stomachs:

When Olmert calls, the president of the US jumps. I can't be the only one to have been struck by this:

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel said Monday that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had been forced to abstain from a United Nations resolution on Gaza that she helped draft, after Mr. Olmert placed a phone call to President Bush. “I said, ‘Get me President Bush on the phone,’ ” Mr. Olmert said in a speech in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon, according to The Associated Press. “They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn’t care: ‘I need to talk to him now,’ ” Mr. Olmert continued. “He got off the podium and spoke to me.” ...
Mr. Olmert claimed that once he made his case to Mr. Bush, the president called Ms. Rice and told her to abstain. “She was left pretty embarrassed,” Mr. Olmert said, according to The A.P.

If you want a glimpse of how the government of Israel was treated unlike any other government in the Bush years, look no further.

Andrew Sullivan quoting a NY Times story. (I know I know. Townhallers don't believe anything in the NY Times.)

Phylo out.

You guys didn't let me down again
Every time Mr. Prager writes an article about the Israel/Palestinian situation, I expect the Anti-Semites to come out and impress us with their incredible vocabulary and polite way of making an argument. Once again, I'm not disappointed.
If I didn't know anything at all about the facts of the situation and only had access to the posts on this thread, I would have to say that the Palestinian supporters are the most vile, vulgar group of people that I have ever had the misfortune of reading. Fortunately, all of us know a lot about this situation, and we all realize that the Palestinian's and their supports are the most vile and vulgar group of people on the planet.
The only thing that is going to take care of this situation is complete occupation of their lands and territories and taking away their ability to cause harm to their neighbors. If that is not possible, then they are going to have to be relocated into a friendly neighboring Arab/Islamic country that would be willing to take them in (oh, wait, there isn't one of those).

Tim
I read the entire article at http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=13139.
I did not find anything there that sufficiently argued as to why the U.S. should not stand with Israel. I have no religious interest in protecting or supporting Israel. I am interested in protecting the single functioning democracy in the middle east. There is really no way for the U.S. to withdraw 'support' for Israel and the only way Israel will not survive and prevail in the middle east is if the United States were to actively block the ability of Israel to protect itself. That is what Scheuer seems to be advocating. Clearly, Scheuer believes that the U.S. and Israel have no shared interests:

Scheuer: "I do not cast aspersions, I forthrightly damn, and pray that God damns, any American – Jew, Catholic, Evangelical, Irish, German, Hindu, hermaphrodite, thespian, or otherwise – who flogs the insane idea that American and Israeli interests are one and the same. The nation-state of Israel is an intolerable burden to the treasury and security of the United States, and Washington's current relationship with Israel – sanctioned by the AIPAC-funded political leaders of both parties – is one of several factors that are leading to full-scale American participation in other peoples' religious wars, religious wars that David Horowitz's recent "Islamofascist Awareness Week" manifestly wants to bring to the streets of the United States."

To Tim
Fascinating stuff about the Irgun. But you left a few things out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Yehuda_Street_Bombing

(the above incident ALONE killed 52 Jews)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

(67 Jews massacred)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots

(47 Jews killed; 48 Arabs killed in defense, mostly by British police/army)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre

(129 Jews killed after surrendering)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadassah_medical_convoy_massac re

(79 Jews killed in a medical convoy; including doctors and nurses)

By the bye, all your referenced incidents stemmed from the 1936-1939 Arab uprising, in which the Arabs staged a massive assault on the Jews. It is unfortunate that Irgun retaliated in the way that they did, but it is very telling that you refuse to provide context.

More Arab provocations against Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_ in_Palestine


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots

Phylo out.
"Andrew Sullivan quoting a NY Times story. (I know I know. Townhallers don't believe anything in the NY Times.)"

Mostly I don't trust Sullivan. Ask him who fathered Palin's son Trig.


These post amaze me
All I hear is: It's the Jews fault; no it's the Palestinian’s fault. Instead of arguing and pointing fingers, shouldn’t we be examining this crisis and learning from it? There is no doubt this type of warfare (urban terrorism) is coming to the rest of the world and to a neighborhood near you, especially America. Where, We (Me included) are going about our daily lives like nothing can happen to us. I hope somebody is taking notes, because I know our elected officials are not. So the next time your at a gathering (airport, train station, sporting event, or celebrating new year eve at Time Square) and you spot that unattended suitcase, it may be the last thing you ever see on earth. Then it will be your innocent life that’s commemorated as some sick victory. Arguing about who is responsible is futile, please, can't we come together and demand action! No, we are too busy posting, arguing whose fault it is. Instead, why not try writing your congressman for starters.

Legitimate Grievences
ITz3:(#13 & 20)
ISRAEL isn't preventing the paleo-stinians from having a homeland. Check out the 1921 Balfour Accords, where Trans-Jordan (modern day Jordan, STILL 90% paleo-stinians) was designated for arabs who didn't want to remain in the Jewish homeland. The Hashimite minority (10%) STILL refuse to allow them citizenship! A legitimate grievence would have the pale-stinians killing and terrorizing the Jordanians, rather than Israelis. Read the Hamas, PLO and Hizballah charters for the REAL reason why they persist in their terrorism. (Hint: They vow to continue until the Jews are annihilated or relocated elsewhere.)
Before spewing your venom, please consult history! (And not the Huff-Puff, rewritten version of history)

To Tim
I suspect that you also managed not to learn about the massacres of Jews in Yemen (1947, 82 Jews killed), Morocco (June 1948, 44 Jews killed), Libya (Nov 1945 - 130 Jews killed, June 1948 - 15 Jews killed), Egypt (1948; bombings of Jewish areas killed 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200), Iraq (1941; 180 Jews killed).

Do you want more?

Talk of the Irgun all you want, its existence was brief and the Israeli government suppressed it violently. But you got a lot of explaining to do about the centuries-long Muslim violence toward Jews.

But please don't take my word for it: research the above incidents all you want. You might also look up the Granada massacre of 1066, the Fez massacre of 1465, the Algiers massacres of 1805 and 1815 and 1830, the Marrakesh murders in 1864-1880, forced conversions in Yemen (1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).

There have been centuries of this stuff, but folks like you lyingly try to pretend that it started with Jewish actions in the mid-twentieth century. Do you imagine that EVERYONE is as ignorant of history as you?

I was
"Don't they know how the Arabs behave, any country they take over, any chance they get?"

No tell us. Tell us how awful Kuwait is or Jordan or Bahrain or Qatar. Also, a good number in Europe aren't even Arab. In the UK, the issue is Pakistanis and Pakistan is in South Asia and is non-Arab or do you think Muslim=Arab?

Naughty, naughty Kerry
Fie on you for bringing up HISTORY! Next you'll be pointing out that the Palestinian Arabs would have everything they're now publicly demanding (and more) if they'd have just accepted the 1947 partition plan rather than trying to murder their Jewish neighbors!

To akagi
Ask the former Christian inhabitants of Palestine and Egypt how Arabs behave when they take over.

You can't find them? That's because of how the Arabs behave when they take over!

As for Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar: these states were always Arab (Arabian Peninsula, you know), so they hardly provide examples of how Arabs behave in their conquests. As for Jordan -- it was once Christian as well, in the days of the Roman Empire. What happened to all those folks?

Hint: read the Koran about how Muslims are authorized to treat males and females captured in war.

Why was gaza NEVER palestinian
From 1948/49 until 1967 Gaza was under Egyptian Control. Yet during that time it was never given to the Palestinians by their Arab Brothers. I wonder why?

Israel DID broker a plan to give Gaza to the Palestinians and Israel FORCED the JEWISH settlers to leave.

How did the Palestinians react? With more ROCKET attacks on Israel! Why didn't Hamas spend the money and time to build infrastructure and businesses instead of investing in death? They were given Gaza but that is not enough for them, they only want the destruction of the Jews.

Now I ALWAYS put the interest of America First. Right NOW, America is in a War with ISLAMIC terrorists. Should America back a country that is also fighting ISLAMIC terrorists or should we back an organization funded by a leading member of the Axis of Evil that is on our terrorist list?

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Michael
It is the Samson option. While Israel refuses to admit it, it has between 200 and 450 nuclear weapons (at the high end the same size as China's nuclear stockpile). Any attack on Israel by a state using WMD or even a massive convential attack that Israel saw itself losing would cause Israel to respond using nuclear weapons and no state is going to invite that. For all the talk about Iran's nuclear ambitions, even if it were to get a nuclear weapon Israel would still have many the times of nuclear weapons and sorry to inform all you Islamicphobes Iran is indeed rational and would not invite nuclear destruction on itself by launching a nuclear attack--note that neither Stalin nor Mao used them.

Hamas and Hezbollah may indeed use WMD, but neither have it and no state is willing to give them WMD either. It is known that Iran has or has had chemical weapons, but it never allowed these weapons to fall into the hands of its clients like Hezbollah and even its own use of such weapons such in the Iran-Iraq War is highly suspect in the words of GlobalSecurity.org.

Who Would Choose Islam?
As I read history of Islam's "spread" in the first centuries after its founding, and consistently since, I have to wonder who would voluntarily choose Islam. Its "expansion" has always been at the point of a sword with compulsive conversion, dhimmitude, or death the only "choices." Upon "acceptance" of Islam, nothing resembling free thought or learning is allowed, as I read the record. Is there another reason for its "popularity" besides coersion first and indoctrination ever after that? What is its appeal in any way to a modern mind?

Tallil2long
Yes and ask the native Americans how they fared when the Christians arrived or the Africans as far as that goes.

I wonder, will you accept a partition plan for the US Southwest when the Mexicans there wish to create the state of Aztlan?

Robert
Well since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US and many of these are converts it seems a good many.


Kerry
So would it be fine for the Anglos of the Southwest to move to say Kansas that being majority Anglo for those Anglos that didn't want to live in Aztlan? As for Jordon, read about "Black September (the event not the group) sometime.


Ok, Akaqi, but WHAT is the appeal?
You only repeated the phenomenon underlying my question: I know there is some appeal, perhaps even voluntary or at least without explicit coersion, but WHAT is it?

Rocketeer
Being anti-Israel (or simply critical of it) is not the same as being an anti-semite. If you are anti-PRC, does that make you anti-Chinese? This canard is getting old. Find some new material.

Our Friends the Palistinians
The Palistinians supported the Nazi in WWII, The communists during the cold war and Saddam in the first gulf war. Ozlo opened a real possibility for peace the Palistinians reacted with the intafada. Clinton brokers a peace deal that would have given the Palistinians a state, ended all of the settlements, given Palsistinians lots of cash to compensate them for their injuries and a guarantee of US dollars for the new Palistinians State. Great deal and Arafat said no or rather insisted on what he knew was a deal breaker the right of Palistinians to Return to Israel Proper.

These people don't want peace which makes them ememies of peace. The world should have said enough of your BS make peace. But no, the poor poor Palistinians is still all the rage in left wing circles here in the US and Abroad. Hmas is the worst of the worst and yet it has its defenders within the Tree hugging peacenick community. Go figure.

Dead Jews Are So Compassionate!
Jews seem far more interested in being seen by the world as morally superior than they do in defending themselves. It is this phenomenon that is causing the Jews to commit slow suicide.

Robert
Who knows. I don't find Christianity or Islam all that appealing really or Judaism as far as that goes. I don't like blackeyes peas or hominy or grits either. I like sashimi and miso soup, other people don't. Different strokes for different folks as they say. Not all of Islam's advance has been by the sword (e.g. in Malaya).




harder to explain
It wouldn't be hard to find jews who celebrate Palestinian deaths. One would only have to go to settlements like Hebron where they have tried to make a hero out of the man who walked into a mosque and slaughetered more than 50 Palestinians at prayer. It is harder than with Palestinians, but it is curious that there are any at all.

After all the Palestinians are in a situation in which the status quo means a steady flow of dead innocent Palestinians due to occupation and Israel control of their borders. To them Israeli deaths represent the only sense that they can affect things in ways that might change the status quo.

By contrast the settlers are protected by the Israeli army, they have freedom of movement that the Palestinians around them lack. I find it harder to understand why they would celebrate the deaths of innocent palestinians.

JMO51
It is Oslo firt off. And it would have given them a state that was still occupied by thousands of settlers, checkpoints bisecting the country making travel difficult and under the discretion of a foriegn power nor did it give the Palestinians as their capital Jersusalem. The deal was great for the Israelis, not so much for the Palestinians. No Palestinian leader could have survived agreeing to such a deal. Yes, surrender is always an option and in this case Clinton's Camp David would have been exactly that--surrender.

RK

American Patriots from The C.I.A.'s Mike Scheuer,to former,Reagan and Nixon Administrations Aid Pat Buchanan,to Congressman Dr.Ron Paul and numerous others sincerely question and oppose The Neoconservative Agenda of using United States Blood and Treasure to Force Spread Democracy across the globe.

As an American Freeman,You are entitled to back The Neoconservative Agenda as am I entitled to oppose it.

America First !

Okay, Okay, Akaqi, but WHAT appeals?
"Who knows" is an answer? If you don't know, neither do I. Is that all there is to it? You like Pepsi, I like Coke? Just a matter of taste?
'De gustibus non est disputandum' tells me nothing.
Anyone else able to outline Islam's appeal?

Pistol
"Last believable estimate i've read was between 40 or 50 nukes in Israel's possession."

Try 200-450. According to NTI, Israel has tested submarine launched nuclear capable cruise missiles as well. The 450 number is from Jane's which most find believable. And what YOU find as unbelievable doesn't make it so, are you an expert on the Israeli nuclear program?

Tallil2long !

Are you denying what I wrote in that post ?

If Terrorists/Freedom Fighters from Hamas,to Irgun,to The PLO ,to The Stern Gang want to blow each other apart in The Palestine Tarbaby,Americans need to review our National Interests and Our Economic and Military Aid there.


Robert
If you really want to know, why not ask someone who is Islamic (and I doubt you'll find anyone like that here trolling this right-wing Christian site). You can go ask at your local mosque. I am pretty sure they won't threaten you with any sword. I am just not all that curious why someone picks one faith over another. As I said, I don't find Christianity all that appealing. But not curious enought to ask why someone picks one faith over the other.

Look. Most people's faith are because their father and mother were that faith and were indoctrinated into that faith--yes that is the right word. It is no different why people in China speak Chinese and you speak English.

For you to get the "appeal" aspect you'll need to find someone that was of some faith other than Islam and converted. For someone here that is not Muslim to answer your question would be pure tripe and as valid as me answering why people become Christian.

Greenday !

You are as welcome to support The Neoconservative Israel Agenda,as I am to oppose it.

We have no Written Alliance with Israel,they haven't been able to put "Boots on The Ground" in Iraq or Afghanistan,they have no oil,they are stuck in a perpetual Tarbaby land fight with The Palestinians,who also have no oil.

There's more,but I'll leave it there for the moment.

Ok, Akaqi. Any Islam Converts here?
That is who I was trying to find. There may in fact not be adherents or academics here who can articulate Islam's appeal. You're not one. Your position is clearly one of disinterest (not uninterest), as if regarding from afar the diverse field of religious viewpoints found on funny little Earth, all different - Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, Wackola, whatever - all equal. I just don't quite regard them as 'all equal.' And I'm sure Islamic adherents don't either!
No problem...I'll look around.

Tim
Buchanan was hardly a administrator for Nixon or Reagan--he wrote speeches for Nixon and he was Reagan's communication director (someone that puts out the party line to the media). Basically it can be seen as chief speech writer. He never had anything to do with US ME policy and his expertise in that area is no greater than your average TH blogger.

His books which advocated the US and the west not to challenge Hilter's move into Poland has made some question if he is a closet Nazi and anti-semite. His book "A Republic, not an Empire" upset John McCain so much he called for the GOP to oust Pat from the party. I did support his call to cut off all Israeli military aid (he said the US shouldn't sell Israel another single bullet) when the Python III sale to the PLAAF came to light in 2001 though.

Bush Doctrine 4.0 (the current version) of spreading democracy throughout the world is folly and is seems that Bush Doctrine 4.0 only supports democracy in some cases, for example Bush and his mouthpieces (Rice, Powell, et al) were quite happy to attack Taiwanese democracy. I guess all democracies are equal, but some are more equal than others in Bush's mind. Some are worth defending and others can be attacked at will.

an aphoristic gem
"Israel is more interested in living with world condemnation than in dying with world sympathy."

Robert
No they don't. But neither do Christians who feel that all others are false faiths and the believers of which (who represent 67% of the world)are doomed to hell. But again, there is no local mosque in your part of California? No professor of Islamic Studies at your university you could ask? I am sure they could provide you with an answer.


The Samson option
There is a reason for Israeli's to hold to that. It's very simple. If the Palestinians gave up their weapons and stopped lobbing rockets into civilian populations in Israel there would be peace between them within a week.
If the Israeli's put down their weapons there wouldn't be a live Jew in a week.
Palestinians are more of a pathology than a people. They are raised from infancy to hate Jews and to blame them for all their ills, even those that are self-inflicted.
Nothing you have said in the comments for this post matter a hill of beans compared to that fact.

Akagi,Taiwan Firster !

I used the term "Administrative Aid". It's just a shortcut catchall term,like "Adviser".

Let's not be too clever by one half and play The Parsing Game" here.

Akagi,as far as Buchanan is concerned,I will take his American Patriotism over your Taiwan Firster Act.

Many of We .Real Americans are gettin' fed up with you smart mouthed Foreign Agendists.


Akagi !

Come to think of it,what are you doin' here in America suckin' off The American Teat,if you're such A Taiwan Patriot?

Man,walk the walk,and live there,if ya love it so.

Go On , Taiwan's lovely,this time of year.

Uh-Oh Hu
Somebody's been reading their Mein Kampf and black liberation theology again...

Macattack asked
"All I hear is: It's the Jews fault; no it's the Palestinian’s fault. Instead of arguing and pointing fingers, shouldn’t we be examining this crisis and learning from it? "

Mac, are you new to TH?? When did you EVER see conservative TH posters objectively examine a crisis and learn from it?

That's not the purpose of this blog, its not why people visit it, and, anyway, it's not within the capability of regular contributors.

never have so many...

... been made to do so much for so few, while alienating so many.

The Israel-America relationship is stunning, really. There are times when the U.S. is the ONLY country in the U.N. voting to support some radical action in the region by Israel. Is it not odd that we alone fathom the "justice" in such a case?

We have as many Arabic Americans as Jews, but do you EVER see them among the analysts/experts discussing the M.E.? Seriously, a round table will include Krauthammer, Kristol, David Gregory and Mara Liasson-- no bias there!

Israel is a country of only 5 million, but it manages to be the nexus of continual unrest in a region where opponents outnumber it 200:1. It survives through grit and a FORTUNE in American military support... also, our 3 largest recipients of foreign aid are because of/for the benefit of Israel-- in order, Israel, Egypt and Jordan. None is a poor nation.

Arguably, the Iraq war was engendered by the neoCONS (Feith, Perle, Wolfy, Libby, Wurmser, etc.) then pulling the strings of "Bush Doctrine" policy to fulfill their Project for a New American Century (PNAC) which called as early as 1996 for the takeout of Iraq to establish permanent American bases there for Israel's defense.

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.h tml
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/09/02/john-mearsheimer-a nd-stephen-walt-pro-israel-lobby-influence-over-us-foreign- policy-on-the-recent-israel-lebanon-war/

Presidente Jorge Bush was asked recently about the greatest regret of his presidency-- he said he wished he had had better intelligence about Iraq. Think about that-- and about WHO convinced him to go there-- and REALLY WHY.

Now we have the $3 TRILLION mistake-- helluva time for it! think what that $ might otherwise be used for instead of flushed down a perpetual rat hole.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_c ontributors/article3419840.ece

Boo Hu Is Po
I thought it was the po palis. Get your po people straight, po person.

Pseudointellectual
Akagi, are you capable of parsimony? You are a bore. Think about it, monkey brain eater.

Mac Attack
If you are really interested in unbiased, challenging, objective information about what is going on there you might consider getting the current issue of The Economist, and read "Gaza: The Rights and the Wrongs".

But, it's a little expensive. I wouldn't recommend it to most posters here, because no matter whose side you're on, it doesn't tell you everything you want to hear or insist on believing.

20 years ago
I could stand up for Buchanan. Now I am SURE he's lost it completely. He was a borderline anti-semite before and now he's poll vaulted OVER that border with a sheet on.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Formosa Firsters
I knew a little guy who was a Formosa Firster. He did eat monkey brains and other items that we consider garbage. All this little guy would talk about was "self-determination" ad nauseum.

I don't know what became of this boy. Maybe he came down with Mad Monkey Disease. Or maybe is is Snoozefest Akagi.

Tim
Kinda cool this time of year, Tim. And Taipei is very wet this time of year. I lived in the south (below the Tropic of Cancer) which is warmer and drier. I tend to like the late spring and summer better.

But up in places like Yushan, it will be snowing this time of year, so yes, Taiwan is beautiful all year. I just happen to like the warmer months better.

You can like Pat and his paleo-Republican views all you want. I just happen not to. We agree on Israel, but hard to find people you disagree with 100% of the time right? Look, even you and I agree at times.

Hmmm
rumdon/Minnesota--do you drive a cab and refuse to accept passengers with bottles of wine?

Dead Palestinians
I remember who was dancing in the streets when the WTC collapsed, and it wasn't the Israelis.

The only problem with the dead Palestinians is, there aren't enough of them.

Lou
My posts on this thread have actually be fairly brief. Sorry, but not everything can fit into your mindless Bill O'Reilly world of sound bytes. There is a Chinese saying of "dui niu tan qin" meaning to play music for oxen. Oxen usually don't appreciate music and you don't understand my posts. That's okay, I understand. There is much the dim witted don't understand. Is that parsimoniousness enough? No. How about we boil it down to "You are an idiot." Good enough?

And monkey brains is something you'd find in Guangdong. Did I say I was from there?




Oracle 1
It is astonishing to me that a country that had the brains to raise itself up out of a desert was unable to find another solution to deal with a group of insurrections lobbing tinnny rockets across the border.

Or wait, maybe that isn't the real reason? Could it be true that this is really about an attempt to draw in Iran, so they can bomb Tehran? Or is the real reason that those is charge all need to win the next election by pacifying the Israeli right wing?

Do you suppose that maybe, if Israel had stopped trying to undermine Hamas by clamping an economic blockade on Gaza, preventing all but a trickle of humanitarian necessities from reaching it, that this war might have been prevented? But, then, is that what the Israelis REALLY wanted?

Perhaps that's like saying that Bush REALLY wanted to prevent the war in Iraq. Sure.

For CA Robert @ 09:56
Since Islam first came into the Subcontinent, some numbers of "low-caste" or Dalit Hindus have sometimes done so seeing a picture of Islam as more egalitarian than Hinduism. However, the majority have generally found that Islam (to their surprise) is actually much more oppressive--and many reverted to the old familiar oppression:
(*) during Viceroyalty of George Nathaniel Curzon, 85% of Dalits who initially embraced Islam reverted within two years
(*) India's first Law Minister, B.R. Ambedkar (one of the best-known Dalits) rated Islam's historical record in Subcontinent as "worst than that of Hinduism" (note: this was NOT a pro-Hinduism statement, needing to be taken in realistic context where Ambedkar commented about Hinduism "its name should be infamy as it relegates entire groups to not even such commerce as touching")

Not only do they care
they also tell the U.S. if they should care or not. Bush is Israel's puppet, Prime Minister Olmert tells him how to vote! Great work letting another country decide our foreign policy traitors!

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090112/world/israel_us_r ice_1

Agaki said
"There is a Chinese saying of "dui niu tan qin" meaning to play music for oxen. Oxen usually don't appreciate music and you don't understand my posts"

Here we say "casting pearls before swine".

Interesting how much alike humans are.

oracle
TH is owned though by Salem Communications which is evangelical Christian. It even bounced Boortz off one of its stations in NC I think--I guess they didn't like it that he isn't anti-Gay and is pro-choice.

For some odd reason, evangelical Christians seem to be part of the "NeoCon" coalition which is not just a code word for "Jews."


Israel's enemy is Gaza..not Hamas....
Although we continually hear it in all the media, Israel’s enemy right now is not Hamas. Rather its enemy is Gaza.
read more at http://www.scattershooting.wordpress.com

Rum.dog
It means the exact same thing, yes.


Funny, Bazz
All the Israelis I know are saying it's just Hamas. But, then, how could the American internet be wrong?

A conflict that has lasted 100 years is not susceptible to easy solutions or glib judgments. Those who choose to reduce it to the “terrorism” of one side or the “colonialism” of the other are just stroking their own prejudices.

svpallava, thanks...
It still eludes me as to what specifically the appeal is. I understand that all religions expect adherence to various doctrines, some of which call for sacrifice of what someone else might regard as an important human freedom. But such adherents view the religious strictures as structures for personal meaning.
But modern Islam (if there is such a thing!) appears to require adherence to extremely narrow behavior and belief, rigid if not cruel sanctions for violations, and mandatory hatred or death of non-believers, not to mention of apostates.

Bravo Dennis
You are spot on with your points. Your analogy about Germany and Japan is entirely apt, unlike the ridiculous analogy used by Jacob Heilbrunn in comparing Russia vs. the Ukraine and Israel vs. Islamic jihadists on another website last week.
A few reminders: The large majority of Palestinians – Muslims, Christians and others - live, work, play, go to school peaceably side-by-side with Jews in Israel. The large majority co-exists peaceably while living even in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. All ethnic and religious groups living in Israel, including Israeli Palestinians as they are known have the same rights, privileges and protections guaranteed to and by Israelis Jews and others. Unsurprisingly Palestinians, however, cannot serve in the IDF.
Islamic jihadists have caused the most deaths of Palestinian civilians and it is intended by the Islamic jihadists.
Jimmy Carter, one of the worst Presidents the U.S. has had so far for many reasons, lamented after returning from the region a couple of weeks ago that Hezbollah did not have ground-to-air weapons to shoot down IAF aircraft. It stands to reason then that he laments Hamas not having the same ability, also to bomb Israel. He is showing signs of dementia leading to Alzheimers. He is so wrong on the Arab, Muslim, Palestinian vs. Israel and Israeli conflict. He must be on the payroll of the jihadists, profiteering to line his filthy pockets as he has with his pro-Islamic jihadists books.

Akagi
Did you take a look at the big ad to the right about joining the resistance movement to oppose Obama?

Perhaps American conservatives will form their own Hamas.


Jews have a culture, but no border

Well now here is that often asked, but never answered question.

Who cares that they are called Jews? Would we have all that problem if the people living in Israel were Swedes, Germans, Frenchmen, China men, Indians - - - that is anyone in the world who did not call themselves Jews.

Just the other day, a Letter to an Editor somewhere hollered that Jews are not a race, they are a religion. Or was that the other way around?

Imagine this, we have a hundred people who are not wearing the dinky little hat, or the big black hat, have shaved sideburns, and do not have any other physical feature or dress that would be normal for a bunch of Jews.

Now would that other crowd wearing long ugly sheets, with a yard of cloth wrapped around their head, the very ugly women (faces kept covered so the ugly is not endured), on the other side of the street, care about the first bunch.

Now in that first group add the little dinky hats, the big black hats, the long sideburns, let the nose grow, wearing large black coats, and have them standing there waiting for the walk light to change by itself, because none of them will push the button, and we would have a war.

Has anyone ever been properly been accused of anti-semitism when talking to, or about, a group that were not known as Jews?
Now this is a serious question, why do Jews want to be known as Jews, since they have for thousands of years been prosecuted only, and because they identify themselves as Jews.

Did you notice that in the Madoff story, we heard over and over, “Why would anyone do that to his friends?” Then he was identified as a Jew, and I have not heard one question like that since.”

Yes and I know most of you will discard this comment once I tell you that my best friend for the past 50 years, he died recently at age 93, was a Jew. And that is true.

filtering TH as a medium
re:
--For some odd reason, evangelical Christians seem to be part of the "NeoCon" coalition which is not just a code word for "Jews."--

While there is NO question that TH nominally has a bent that dovetails with certain conservative Christian values, my point is that EVERY columnist except Pat. B. takes ONLY the pan-Israeli/Zionist view about the M.E. here.

While a majority of American Jews officially opposed the War in Iraq, the neoCON/Zionist ilk including ALL TH columnists cannot stop braying about the virtues of the Iraq War, because it was they who engendered taking out Iraq as part of their PNAC agenda, spelled out way back in 1996.

http://tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html

Poor, gullible Presidente Jorge STILL does not fully realize how he got manipulated by Feith, Perle, Wolfy, Libby, Abrams, Wurmser, etc., who then slinked away into the night to leave him holding the bag when it became inescapably obvious that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11... Osama and Saddam had been ADVERSARIES.

When he finally obviated Israel's attempt to attack Iran recently, it was ONLY AFTER he had begun to see the light, which takes a while given his myopia and simplicity.

As for the Christian right, the neoCONS/TH have played them like a Stradivarius by getting them to equate what is the perceived good for Zionism with God's will.

Ronald
"Jimmy Carter, one of the worst Presidents the U.S. has had so far for many reasons, lamented after returning from the region a couple of weeks ago that Hezbollah did not have ground-to-air weapons to shoot down IAF aircraft."

Not that I don't believe you and no fan of his, but care to provide us with a source for that comment.

Only a Few Comments
I skim read the comments here quickly and have only a few comments more of my own to make.
The anti-Israel, Israeli, Jew haters, pro-Islamic jihadists posters here remain true to form. They do not have a grasp of real history, facts and truth or twist them for their evil purposes.

Akagi in GA
"Ronald
"Jimmy Carter, one of the worst Presidents the U.S. has had so far for many reasons, lamented after returning from the region a couple of weeks ago that Hezbollah did not have ground-to-air weapons to shoot down IAF aircraft."

Not that I don't believe you and no fan of his, but care to provide us with a source for that comment."

The Associated Press. And on that point I am curious if anyone here is as concerned as I am the we have only one national news press service left in the U.S. or knows what happened to United Press International? I know but will hold the answer until posters here attempt to answer the latter question.

And on and on and on.

As I scanned the 90 posts on this page, I noticed the word Jew a few hundred times, especially when identifying that so many Jews were killed here and there.

My question is, if they were Swedes, French, Thai, Canadians, and on and on, would this article even exist?

The people here only care that a Jew did this and a Jew did that, and all those other people are so mean to Jews.

I just do not understand. In their hotels, the elevators stop at every floor on weekends, without regard to the other people staying at that hotel. They want the traffic lights to flash yellow all weekend so they don't have to push a button, but care not a wit about the majority of the residents in that area of town who want to live their normal life.

And on and on and on.

And believe me, I don’t care what they do, as long as they are not infringing on others way of life.

I wish there was a country with a strong border that could be the home for all who want to practice their life, their culture, and their religion.

Oh, but come to think of it, a lady was thrown off the bus in Jerusalem because she was wearing the wrong hat, and was sitting in the wrong seat. Could it ever cease.

Oh my Gosh!
They don't want to kill or deny aid to women and children! But, why does Hammas hide among them? To get the sympathy of the world and it is working. Hammas are cowards and are holding their own people as human shields. Christians must unite with the Jews, as they are keepers of the old Testament. The Jews have paid the price of their freedom many times over.

oracle
Plenty of posts on these threads by Christians claiming Israel is God's chosen people and if the US doesn't come running to Israel's side there will be judgement from God, blah blah blah.

Rum.dog:

Never clicked on that. I have no idea what it means, but most conservatives I have heard wish Obama success--e.g. Sean Hannity.

Only those with ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome--a similar affliction to BDS) seem to talk about an Obama resistance, etc.


Ronald
Send us to the exact quote via a link.

Oracle:

To see what I am talking about please see the mindless post by Glass Bead Maker.


JIM
In response to your statement " wish there was a country with a strong border that could be the home for all who want to practice their life, their culture, and their religion."

There is... it's called America. But liberals are slowly destroying that notion...

This article was excellent and the point could have been made in the last two lines.. "Israel is more interested in living with world condemnation than in dying with world sympathy."

Enough said...

Bead Maker
"But, why does Hammas hide among them?"

Gaza is about the size of DC, and is the 6th most densely packed country on earth. Be pretty hard to be anywhere in Gaza and not be around civilians and when you fly in with F15s and AH-64s and fire rounds from armor and SPGs, you are going to hit civilians even if Hamas was trying to be out in the open (which would be pretty stupid on their part).

When you arm Hamas with the SU-27, MI-24 attack helicopters, and T-72 battle tanks, then you can reasonably expect Hamas to fight out in the open. small arms and homemade rockets don't fare too well against F15s and the like.

Akagi !

I thought it over and you can stay here in America.
However,I'm puttin' ya on double secret probation,until we get your mind right.

Nah, You're fun to debate,even when we're down to keyboard eye gougin',and groin kickin'.


reply to: Akagi
re:
"Plenty of posts on these threads by Christians claiming Israel is God's chosen people and if the US doesn't come running to Israel's side there will be judgement from God, blah blah blah."

Exactly!
You are SUPPORTING my premise about TH and neoCONS/pan-Israelis/Zionists using the Christian Right! [See my post @ 1:20 where I summarize with precisely the same point.] How often must we hear about, "The Judeo-Christian tradition," as if they must ALWAYS be inextricably linked? (And who first called Jesus a dangerous heretic?!)

Arrant terrorism was used to establish modern Israel, and today when Israel does the same thing (wanton killing of noncombatants) it is euphemistically called, "Israel's right to defend itself" and "part of the worldwide war on terror."

Tim
"However,I'm puttin' ya on double secret probation,until we get your mind right."

Two movie quotes in one sentence--well done and two good movies to boot. Animal House and Cool Hand Luke.


Oracle &Akagi Have A Point !

While many of Us Real Conservatives recognize Christian Supersessionism and Replacement Theology that trumps Jewish People as "God's Chosen",many Fundamentalist Christians back The Neoconservative Israel Agenda for their Apocalyptic beliefs.

The Neoconservatives pushed,supported and orchestrate The McCain Presidential Campaign and attempted to hijack The White House and hijack The Republican Party again.

Real Conservatives had enough and rebelled against,McCain-Kennedy,McCain-Feingold,McCain-Lieberman,Opposition To Bush Tax Cuts,Gang of 14 ,etc.which sold out Real Conservatism for The Neoconservative Israel Firsters Agenda.

This was Neoconservative Agenda Redux,that compromised The Bush II Administration and We have had it.


Re: Palestinian cheering dead Jews
The palestinians cheered and danced in the streets when thousands of Americans died in the 9/11 attack. It makes me puke to think our government sends biilions of our tax dollars in aid to the palestinians.

Tim and Neocon agenda

Time wrote: You are as welcome to support The Neoconservative Israel Agenda,as I am to oppose it.

We have no Written Alliance with Israel,they haven't been able to put "Boots on The Ground" in Iraq or Afghanistan,they have no oil,they are stuck in a perpetual Tarbaby land fight with The Palestinians,who also have no oil.

Greenday: I don't see it as exclusively neo-con, nor religious, nor at the sole behest of influential jews in the U.S. I see it as Israel being able to counter the clients of Iran (Hizbollah and Hamas) who the U.S. is very interested in keeping in check. That should be obvious.

Furthermore, Israeli destruction of nuclear facilities in Syria is also of great national interest as it assists the U.S. in protecting the oil supply for us and for our allies in Europe until other energy sources come on line.

Nothing neocon about that. just common sense

Another factoid for CA Robert
Islam also has the record of being the only religion to have circulated propaganda labelling descendants of forced converts "heroes" (given that the ethnic groups from which the converts hailed had a historical record of "bowing before invaders" (B)) and those of voluntary converts (whose ethnic group has a long history of unruliness, rebellion and mob-mentality) "cowards" (A).


(A) Robert Stephen Payne, "Massacre", 1972; tracts found on Punjabi and mohajir POW's of 1971 war
(B) "Dawn" (Karachi newspaper) editorial, 2005-12-16, by Ardeshir Cowasjee


Akagi !

Touche' !

That's right, Animal House and Cool Hand Luke.

Definitely Animal House was My Collegiate Career.
I Dub Thee Tiger !

I Dub Me Stallion !

Tim
Not sure how all that can be laid at NeoCons as the term is usually applied it means support of an interventionist foreign policy rather than more isolationist which was the default GOP position for most of its history. I don't see how those three McCain sponsored bills really fit into the NeoCon agenda.




rum.dog
"Perhaps American conservatives will form their own Hamas", you said.

If American conservatives ever DID form such a movement, we wouldn't even need as our example a foreign Arab guerrila movement; we already HAVE as role models right here in America from the 1960's the Students For a Democratic Society (SDS) and their offshoot, the Weathermen - and in more recent times, take a look at the tactics PETA has been engaging in. Funny, none of these groups, to the best of my recollection, was spawned by the VRWC. In point of fact, these came from YOUR side of the political and ideological spectrum.

Greenday !

If you're stating that you are not a Neoconservative Agendist,but rather a Conservative,who supports Israel's agenda, that's your right as a Freeman in America.

As far as Syria's Nuke Facility,and Iraq and Afghanistan and Iran ,etc., The United States Is The Big Dog and We can Fight Our Own Fights and We don't need Welfare Payments from Israeli citizens to give us Economic or Military Aid.

And We sure don't need Israel Spies like Ben Ami Kadish,who just pleaded guilty,nor Illegal Sales by Israel of U.S. Weapons Technology to The Red Chinese,jeopardizing our Allies Taiwan and Japan.There's more but I'll leave it there for now.






Tim
My college didn't have much of a frat presence. At the time, of the 18,000 only 250 lived on campus and the local kids called us University High. There was no frat row. (now more dorm space and a frat row and no doubt more frat oriented).

Animal House and Cool Hand Luke are great. I guess my favorite classic movies are King Rat and Stalag 17.

Don
And if American-made F15s and AH-64s attacked your town it wouldn't matter all that much that they were flown by Israelis, but that they were provided by the Americans. I am pretty sure you'd jump up and down about the Americans getting a tiny bit of their own medicine. And the US gives money to the PA and Fatah who run the West Bank--it cut off Hamas and Gaza when it won in 2006.

You may note also that some in China took glee over it too--even making a video of the planes slowly coming toward the buildings with the music from Jaws in the background. Everyone takes a bit of glee when the top dog gets taken down a notch or two. Human nature.




Akagi !

The point was that Neoconservatives were orchestrating the Campaign of the Serial Traitor to Conservative and Republican Agendas, McCain and were willing to sacrifice,Immigration Conservatism,Judicial Conservatism,Environmental Conservatism,Free Speech in Campaigns Conservatism,etc. for their Neoconservative Agenda of which The Israel Agenda is paramount.
From the likes of Medved,to Brooks,to Kristol,to Podhoretz,to Frum,to many of his own Advisers,these were Neoconservative Israel Agendists.

Here's one for You Akagi.

Define Neoconservatism and it's relation to The Israel Agenda.

Akagi !

Where did you attend University ?

Were you a History Major ?



Akagi
Oslo was a step to peace. It is clear that Isreal is willing to trade land for peace and stable borders. That may have not always been the case but it is certainly the case now.

The Clinton deal was a great deal probably the best deal that the Palistinians will ever get and lets be quite clear, if the Palistians were simply one of the many ethnic minorities on Arab lands they would have about as much of a chance at statehood as Osama Bin Laden converting to christianity.

Arabs don't give up land for peace.

Nor is this conflict really about land. Because if it were Arabs would have helped resettle their Palistinian brothers back in 1948 rather than leaving them in these refugee camps that BTW are run by the UN.

Yes, the Israel's settlements in the West Bank must go, but the Palistinians have to do something. They have to act civilized control their militants, and make peace with Israel. A peace that does not require that Israel protect its citizens from terrorist groups fringe or otherwise.

With a safe and secure border for Israel a palistinians state become very viable and ultimately it is likely that two states like that would become interdependent upon each other.

But are the Palistinians willing to give up their battle for conquest a battle that has been breed into them after several generations in those camp taught to see Jews as Pigs and their conquest as something ordained by God?

And which Palistians leaders are calling for Peaceful co-existance and which Palistinians writers and thinkers in the diaspora are talking about peaceful co-existance.

Listen to their rhetoric it is all about victimhood and conquest. That is Pragers premise that Israelies dream of the day they can live in peace with the Palistinians and Palistians dream of the day they will kill all the jews or at least drive them all from the Middle East.


jim
jim says. "Yes and I know most of you will discard this comment once I tell you that my best friend for the past 50 years, he died recently at age 93, was a Jew. And that is true."

Now THAT'S funny. I haven't heard that disclaimer since the 60's when everyone had an imaginary black friend.

Tim
Out west and no. Anthropology. Took three history classes--Roman History, Latin American History and The US Civil War and Reconstruction. And the required ones--US History (both before and after 1865) and the state required history of that state--it was a public university.






The US is “… one nation, indivisible … ”

Matt Location: AZ
Reply # 93
Date: Jan 13, 2009 - 1:53 PM EST
JIM
In response to your statement " wish there was a country with a strong border that could be the home for all who want to practice their life, their culture, and their religion."

There is... it's called America. But liberals are slowly destroying that notion...
=========

You misunderstood. The only people who should be living in the United States of America are those who are citizens, and proud happy citizens, who live within the culture we have become accustom to.

You know as well as I do that a Jews first allegiance is to the fact that he is a Jew. I want only those whose first allegiance on this earth is to be a citizen of these United States.

I am not talking about the religious allegiance, just their allegiance to a culture, within a border. No that is not boring.

Here’s one of my Gems.

When people say the US is “…one nation, indivisible …” consider the few similarities and the many differences between the Maine lobster trapper and his home and way of life, with the cowboy in Montana, and with the people who live on the mountain-side above Beverly Hills in Southern California!
_______________________________
Not major differences that would make the people incompatible and contentious, but a shade of difference, that adds character and interest to both the people and their land.
_______________________________
The US is “… one nation, indivisible … ” with many differences!

JMO51
The Clinton deal was a great deal--for the Israelis. When you have another country having enclaves of their citizens in your country, with their troops protecting them and checkpoints telling you when and how you can travel in your own country that is not a good deal.

When you let Mexican settlements protected by the Mexican Army with Mexican checkpoints in Arizona? I don't think so.


To akagi
"I wonder, will you accept a partition plan for the US Southwest when the Mexicans there wish to create the state of Aztlan?"

You've tried this apples-and-oranges fallacy before, neighbor.

The U.S. southwhest is part of a sovereign nation -- the United States. The portion of the Levant granted to form the state of Israel was part of what nation in 1948?

It wasn't part of ANY nation. Having been captured from the Ottoman Empire in 1918 (which had since ceased to exist in 1922), it was a UN Mandate administered by Britain. Thus, the UN had every right to apportion it to the Jews to create their homeland.

Do you understand YET?

To akagi
"Yes and ask the native Americans how they fared when the Christians arrived or the Africans as far as that goes."

Nice dodge. If the Arab conquests were so nicey-nice, what DID happen to those Christian cultures? Did you find any of those folks yet?

misleading premise
re:
"Arabs don't give up land for peace."

TIME has a cover story this week about Israel's dilemma... part of that conundrum is that having more land actually ultimately works AGAINST Israel.

They are outnumbered 200:1 by Islamics in the region, and ultimately fear losing control of Israel for Jews if they are not careful, partly due also to birth rate issues vis-a-vis Islamics.

Their REAL issue about land relates mainly to opponents having a base to try to take back what Israel confiscated via terrorism in the late 40's.

They might have lost that effort entirely, but Truman needed the Jewish vote in '48, so he cast his lot with supporting Israel's then nascent nationhood.

Akagi
The current troubles in the middle east all originate from the Balfour declaration of 1919.

The Ottoman empire was in the process of disntegrating, that declaration set the stage for the emigration of Jews.

I believe you are incorrect using a non existent Aztlan as a point in this issue


Jim
So much wrong where shall I start.

"You misunderstood. The only people who should be living in the United States of America are those who are citizens, and proud happy citizens, who live within the culture we have become accustom to."

So what about students on F1 visas? How about permanent residents? Live within the culture you are accustomed to? What culture is that exactly?

Chinatown in SF has existed since the 1850s, the one in NYC the 1880s. Mexicans lived in the SW and continued to live in the SW from the 1840s onward. Then the Germans, Italians, Swedes and on and on. Shall we forget about the Indians?

"You know as well as I do that a Jews first allegiance is to the fact that he is a Jew. I want only those whose first allegiance on this earth is to be a citizen of these United States."

Ah. But don't you just love Jus Soli. Not much you can do about who my loyality is to now can you Jim? And thanks to Afroyim v. Rusk (Afroyim was a Jew who voted in an Israeli election and the US tried and failed to strip him of his citizenship)you can't do anything about their loyalities. You know Jim there are even these things in the US known as dual nationals--they have citizenship in the US and GASP!!! another country and even has more than one passport! Oh the horror! Some can even become dual nationals and have never set foot on the other country's soil--ah the wonders of jus sanguinis.

And before we re-fight the Pacific War again. I'll beat you to the punch. Akagi was the name of an Akagi-class carrier that fought in the Pacific War and was Nagumo's flagship for the attack on Pearl Harbor. Now that that's out of the way.


akagi

The argument that Israel "stole" land from the Palestinians is absurd. Consider that virtually every country in the Americas was founded on land stolen from indiginous people.

If you're going to use that idiotic argument, you'd also have to be in favor of America, Mexico, Cuba, France, Britain, Iran, Iraq, Russia, Turkey, Greenland, and hundreds of other nations giving up their countries or other lands and returning it to those from whom it was stolen.


Actually Tail
It was a League of Nation's Mandate when the UK got its hands on Palestine. So in your view then, the British Empire would have been fine to create Israel in Uganda as their first choice back in 1903? Or say put Israel off in today's Anbar province as both Iraq and Palestine were LON Mandates?

Who knew what a British Imperialist you were.

Bob C.
Agree, but the West Bank and Gaza and the Golan aren't Israel are they? And if it is idiotic to claim Israel stole land in Palestine (and you have a case outside the 1948-borders), it is equally as stupid to argue that the land is the modern state of Israel's based on some 4,000 year old text.

Ronald
You say: "The anti-Israel, Israeli, Jew haters, pro-Islamic jihadists posters here remain true to form. They do not have a grasp of real history, facts and truth or twist them for their evil purposes."

You seem to have a not so solid grasp on reality. I see very, very few (if any) posts that indicate what you say in that first sentence. However, if you would open your eyes, you would see quite a few posts that are from haters who have no qualms about saying that they think the Pals or the Arabs should be wiped off the map. Or that Israel has the right to kill thousands of Pals to punish them for tens or hundreds of Israeli deaths.

As for posters twisting the facts for their "evil" purposes...please give some examples of this? I seldom if ever see the people who question the actions of Israel doing it for any sinister or "evil" reasons.

However, if you want to see a whole bunch of people who seem to support a foreign nation more than our nation, the United States of America, simply look at the often rabid posts of Israel backers.

Not sure if it's religion or ethnicity, or money or what...but for some reason there are people who back Israel but who don't have a clue to either the actions of Israel over the past 50 years or any good reason why the USA should unquestioningly always back Israel.

What's your excuse?

akagi
I am not mindless as you may seem to think. I have listened to your point of view.

You live in America you can spout anything you want. Your freedoms here are protected.

As an American I can pronounce my love of the Lord Jesus Christ and His word.

As believers of the word we know it is our duty to protect the Jewish people and the keepers of the old testament.

anderson659

You forgot to mention The McMahon-Hussein Correspondence , Between The British High Commissioner in Egypt,Sir Henry McMahon and The Sharif of Mecca.

The letter from McMahon to Hussein dated 24 October 1915 is key.

"As for the regions lying within the proposed frontiers, in which Great Britain is free to act without detriment to interests of her ally France, I am authorized to give you the following pledges on behalf of the Government of Great Britain, and to reply as follows to your note: That subject to the modifications stated above, Great Britain is prepared to recognize and uphold the independence of the Arabs in all the regions lying within the frontiers proposed by the Sharif of Mecca."[6]

Bead
I didn't say you were mindless I said the post was mindless. To say the US should automatically run to the modern state of Israel's defense that has no more connection to the Jews of 4000 years ago than I do based on what some text that is claimed to be the word of God says it pure mindlessness.

My freedoms are also protected many places. The US doesn't have a monopoly in that regard.

IT Returns - 1
To question me on: "The anti-Israel, Israeli, Jew haters, pro-Islamic jihadists posters here remain true to form. They do not have a grasp of real history, facts and truth or twist them for their evil purposes."
Did I not only dismiss with an F but also disenroll from class a day or so ago, the illiterate, uneducable dolt so pilloried by other informed, rational posters here that IT is clearly in a small minority of like persons?
I see IT does not see, that IT is illiterate, blind, deaf and dumb. A few clues for IT: 1) Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the one who has called repeatedly for wiping Israel and all its diverse population of Jews, Judaists, Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims and others off the map. 2) It is Hamas and other Islamic jihadists who have vowed to murder all Jews and to destroy Israel since the founding of Islam in the 7th C. 3) It is the Qur’an and other Muslim writings and speeches that teach, indeed demand, that all Jews, Christians and other unbelievers in Islam be converted, subjugated or murdered in pursuit of taking over the world for Allah to establish a worldwide caliphate with Shar’ia law.
All of that is evil as is the latest post from IT to me.
This – “Israel has the right to kill thousands of Pals to punish them for tens or hundreds of Israeli deaths” – is the disproportionate response argument of the Islamic jihadist propagandists. This – “if you want to see a whole bunch of people who seem to support a foreign nation more than our nation” – is the it’s none of our business propaganda argument. I reminded readers here a few days of the story about “when the Nazis in the 1930s leading to WWII came for me there was no one left to help or save me after the author of that story had stood aside saying it’s none of my business.



IT Returns - 2
I have lots of clues based on extensive study and teaching even at the graduate level, 8 lengthy visits to the Middle East since ’04 and meeting both there and here with Jews, Muslims and others. That is my excuse. I wonder what ITs excuse is? I wonder what ITs qualifications are, or if IT has any other than propaganda lies and half-vast opinions in ITs ignorance, most likely willful or part of the Muslim practice of deceiving them until strong enough to take them over.
By the way, I do not back Israel unquestioningly, and Modern Israel celebrated its 60th anniversary, not 50th, last year.

Right, there is no moral equivalence
The Jews have been given the Torah, the jewel of creation yet not of the Jewish comentators here persue war Mitzwas or even mention what the Bible says about war.

Yet the Palestininas with their Koran are faithfully doing what it says.

Right, there is no moral equivalence.

The Jews stand condemend for the millenia haveing the TOrah and not doing it.

To akagi
Nice try. The idea of establishing a Jewish homeland in Uganda is irrelevant. I have shown your Aztlan comparison to be inappropriate and just plain silly. You tacitly admit that fact by abandoning your Azatlan analogy and throwing out the obvious red herring of my 'British imperialism'.

You only reveal the weakness of your own argument.

But while we are on the subject of 'transfers of sovereignty', let's get back to the subject of Isael. Did you know that there are some 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs resident in Israel? They have full citizenship rights including the right to vote, they elect Knesset members, they appeal laws and legal decisions to the Supreme Court and sometimes win over the Israeli government. So the transfer of sovereignty did not involve automatic deprivation of Arab rights or property.
Had their cousins opted to accept the UN's transfer of sovreignty from the Mandate to Israel, this mess would not have occured; instead they opted to launch unprovoked attacks on their Jewish neighors, then fled the expected consequences of their actions. The cause of the bloodshed is NOT the League of Nations, NOT Great Britain, NOT national sovereignty transfer, NOT the UN, and NOT Israel's lust to exile the Palestinian Arabs.

The cause is the preference of so many Palestinian Arabs for misery and violence over any peaceful, prosperous rule of law that involves uppity Jews unsubmissive to Islam.


Comments, Answers to the Questions
Like most articles here, Prager's is simply dishonest propaganda. – You do not have to read here nor Prager’s articles.
If, as he claims, all of the Jews are so distressed by Palestinian deaths, then why in the world do they allow their leaders to continue the massacres? – Because Islamic jihadists since the founding of Islam in the 7th C., the establishment of Modern Israel (thus an Ancient Israel is a given) have vowed and tried to murder all Jews and to destroy Israel.
Does he provide any evidence legitimizing his silly analogy between Hamas and the Nazis? – He would need to do so only to the ignorant too dumb to see the clarity of the excellent analogy and not knowing Islamic jihadists have worked closely with the Germans before the Nazis and since then with the Nazis.
Does he provide any evidence that Hamas and the Iranians are dreaming of a holocaust? – Again, only necessary for the ignorant, apparently willfully so, since all Muslims, especially Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hamas and many other Islamic jihadist groups and leaders have said so. The Hamas words are: “We [Hamas] love death, you Jews love life.”
As usual, it's just hate, hate, hate - this time the Palestinians. Nest time - who knows? – Next time, at this time, right now the Islamic jihadists hate and are coming after all unbelievers in Islam. Perhaps you haven’t noticed their worldwide warfare, 9/11/2001 and the many successful and unsuccessful attempts before and since then.

Contest Entry
This reaches the pit of the most illiterate and dumbest posts ever here. It is hereby entered into the contest - Dumbest Post to Townhall. Not to mention the stupidity of its argument(s)some examples that qualify it as an entry:
"not of the Jewish comentators here," "persue," "Palestininas," "millenia,"
"haveing" and "TOrah."
Rejoice others who oppose Israel and support Islamic jihadists. Rejoice in standing with this one like you.

How About The Stern Gang & The Nazis !


By 1940-41, the "Stern Gang," among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the "Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany."

Immigration be replaced with Invitation

When the United Nations was founded I expected their most important job would be to establish and protect Borders.

Fifty years ago I visited the UN Hq twice, and asked them to prohibit immigration, as we know it, all over the world. You were born someplace, that’s your place.

I suggested that Immigration be replaced with Invitation. If a country asked for you, you could go.

In addition, even if you went by invitation, you have five years to become a real member of that country. You had to know the language, you had to adapt to the culture of that country, you had to forget about the culture where you were born.

If you wanted to leave your country, you must not have liked it, and if you wanted to go to some other country, you must have liked something about that country, so don’t insist on confusing the two.

I suggested this because I believe in diversity. If I want to see how Mexicans live, I would go to Mexico, not Los Angeles. If I want to see how the Algerians live, I would go to Algeria, not to Paris. If I wanted to see how the Greeks live, I would go to Greece, not to Germany or Sweden. And on and on.

If we continue to allow people go where they want, and then allow them to change the country they go to, so it would be like the cesspool they left, there will be no more Diversity.

Look at the problem in France and England. Would you like to visit the “foreign” parts of those countries? Do you visit to see the culture of France and England, or the culture of the people who have moved there from third-world, Muslim countries?

Diversity must be among countries, not within a country.

Islam is not a religion

And by the way, Islam is not a religion, it is a government. When what you eat, and what you wear, and if you are allowed to drive a car, or work here or there, is determined for you and enforced, that is not a religion, that is a government. We should not allow Moslems in our country, any more than we should allow socialists or communists.

“Breathes there a man with soul so dead … ” that he is not gratified by another’s appreciation of his home, his city, and his country. He may grumble in private over the plumbing, the taxes, and his government, but he loves to have the visitors find their surroundings beautiful and interesting. The architecture, ruins from ancient times, gardens with precision plantings, the natural beauty, art and treasures, all can easily be appreciated.

The tourist who comes to “appreciate” will visit and see the beauty, and never notice the negatives seen by the tourist who came to “criticize.”

We have visited about 70 countries, and, “All in all, our travels have proved ‘It’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there,’ is not a cliché, it’s the truth.”

Quite correct, Hamas kills their own
Israel wants to live in peace within its borders, only democracy in the area that allows Palestinians to vote and participate in countries affair. Hamas is a terrorist organization and only exists to annihilate Israel and kill all the Jews.
Hamas deliberately uses innocent Palestinians as human shields.
Real Palestine as 2000 years ago, historically always has been a Jewish land, Arabs never resided in Palestine.

Chloe's response
"Israel should give Palestine
back to the Palestinians. What Germany did to the Jews was reprehensible, but that doesn't mean they get to be brutes too. "

Chloe by what moral platform do you stand on? Yes, they get to be brutes! You missed the entire point of Dennis' column. The point is the Jews regret the loss of life in defending themselves but Islam celebrates the loss of life in killing Jews. Pick a side sweety pie or shut up.

if the issue was that clear
it would be resolved. Prager lets you American Christians run with your hope that Israel gets destroyed so you can have your rapture.

Wade - Palestine
Wade - Please enlighten me, where is Palestine?

Calling Dr. Doolittle!
Your patients, Deranged Potion No. 29 and Call-a-Drunk, are awaiting you in Group Therapy.

Tim and Support of Islamic Terrorists
Why do so many posters on here support the goals and aims of Islamic Terrorists supported by an AXIS of EVIL country?

In 1983 I was at basic training (Infantry)and I was the only Jew in my Platoon. THere was an Armenian in the Platoon also (at the time Armenia was not an independant country but not sure if anyone in the platoon knew that). Anyway the Drill SGT asked me one day, "If israel went to war with Armenia which side would I be on?"

I answered with the only answer any AMERICAN should give. I said which ever side AMERICA is on.

In the current conflict we are at war with Muslim Terrorists and Israel is also fighting Muslim Terrorists. How is it NOT in Amercian interest to side with those countries that fight Muslim Terrorists?

I know some posters like Tim are Muslim terrorist appeasers that want to surrender to them but I just don't see how anyone but a coward or someone who supports the Muslims goals can take that side.

I would not always side with Israel but in this case our interest goes in the same direction as Israel and against ISLAMIC TERRORISTS.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Jim in CA
Jim thinks we should not have immigration but invitation?

Does he not know we ALREADY INVITED others to come here?

Do the words "give us your tired , your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free" mean anything to Jim?

Do we not have a famous lady holding up a torch beckoning foriegners to our shores?

Honestly Jim would you like to tear down the Statue of Liberty?

By the way I am a PROUD American and Carreer Military officer that opposes ILLEGAL immigration. I was lucky enough to be born in AMERICA but if i was not I would do everything i could to legally MOVE to America. Would anyone reading this really rather live as a peasant in Mexico or Guatamala or Ethiopia? Can you fault those people for wanting to come here?

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Ronald, FL- Count Me Out!
"Only a Few Comments
I skim read the comments here quickly and have only a few comments more of my own to make.
The anti-Israel, Israeli, Jew haters, pro-Islamic jihadists posters here remain true to form'

Count me out! Even my Jewish ex-inlaws voted against The One.

I am sending out secret decoder rings to the Jew haters because what they fail to understand is that the destruction of Israel is NOT the true aim of Islamofacists. They will not be happy until Islam is the global religion and culture.

All of the Anti-Jew, Pro-Palestian, Israel haters will convert or die.

And, forget about Akagi, Insane Potion No. 29, Call-a-Drunk, et al. The are about as useless as the long ago Christmas reindeers with broken antlers.

Too much good sense
Here are some remarks containing too much good sense for TH, so I know the resident Jew-haters will come out sliming.

1. Comparisons of Israel with the Nazis are demonstrably false, and serve only to fuel the flames of Jew-hatred. In no sense is israel attempting to destroy the Palestinians as a people. It's loathesome to see conservatives resorting to the smears uttered by the radical left, but, no surprise, some TH folks keep pretty low company.

2. The Israels, the Jews, are not out to destroy either a population (see 1 above) or any Arab state. The same cannot be said for either many Palestinians or the leaders (and large portions of the populations) of the Arab world. The destruction of Israel and of the Jews is a self-evident good. Conservaties who fantasize that Israel could survive by laying down its weapons and making nice (the 'Rodney King' move), show that political realism is something they lack in spades.

3. The common denominator of much of the world's radical left and the old European Right
is hatred of Jews. Today's American conservatives are returning to their deepest ideological roots when they resurrect the old cliches directed against the Jews for centuries.
4. Conservatives should be even more supportive of Israel and the Jews than we liberals are. Much of the Western tradition (hey, that's what you folks are supposed to be preserving--did ya' know that?) is deeply indebted to the Jews (as well as to ancient Greece, and many other sources--although today's American conservatives don't know this any more). The destruction of Israel and the Jews would be a devastating blow to values you guys are supposed to be into--but I guess we liberals will have to step up on this one.

Borders move
cultures change. Weeping and gnashing teeth about armed conflict will only bring dehydration and tooth decay. All nations, tribes and cultures have fought each other, subjugated each other, enslaved and killed each other throughout all time. Balfour, Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Babylonian Empire, etc. are the histories of the above mentioned troubles. Hamas will continue to attack, Israel will respond. As one poster noted, Israel most closely resembles Western Philosophy and government. Arab culture, religion, and values do not. Pick your side, and know why.

Taqiyyotomist and Akagi
This is a FREE site. Seriously, don't you feel a little like the welfare recipient who complains that the check is late? You really are embarrassing yourselves. Read your posts again. Or do you really think that all of the gibberish in the comments section is pertinent to ANYTHING of consequence?

The writers are barely consequential, how can you possibly think that us idiots, and all of our back and forth banter (no matter how smart you may be), matters a single wit in the "grand scheme of things"? Well, I'll tell you, it doesn't so you might as well look at it as the amusing waste of time that it really is. Then maybe you'll have fun like me. I mean, half wits are twice as smart as I, and yet this place is a blast. Go figure...

Tinsldr2
First of all, as a Viet Nam vet I appreciate your service.

But I must ask you about your immigration views. Do you really think that America should accept everyone who wants to come to our nation and everyone who shows up?

Does this include everyone across our Mexican border?

Does it include the Third World nations? They have a much tougher life than most Mexicans.

If so, exactly how many should we accpet? At last report there were about 2 or 3 BILLION worse off than the Hispanics. So...all of them?

You seem to have a very humanistic and caring view but at some point reality and logic must enter into the equasion. Any successful nation with totally open borders and immigration is inexorably doomed to fall.

2spipshot
Are you still here?

Gosh, considering your undying love of ISRAEL (the name you said I didn't like to say) I sure figured that you would have taken advantage of that Israel immigration procedure site that I provided to you.

Another poster and I have a plan to give CA to the Jews of Israel but since that may take a while I would suggest that you go the immigration route to get to your favorite nation. Yes...ISRAEL.

Good luck and God speed.


Actually 2 spot
I must agree with most of your post. I like to read the columnists here and at other sites, cut and paste, and provide them for my students to analyze and critique. Antiwar.com provides some grist, as does Kos. Fair and balanced and so on. What we say is just entertainment and mental exercise.

Profblog
Well, I guess you're the exception. By the way, if it can be proved that you cutted and pasted any of my stuff, I'm gonna sue you till the cows come home! THIS IS MY FREE SITE! All you other mothers keep your freakin' right clickers to yourselves!!!!

And Townhall!!! Why can't I post pictures on my free blog!?!! You #$&%%$(*(%#!$#@!!!ing !!^%#$%@S-holes !!!!

No one loves liberty more than I do

Tinsldr2 Location: GA
Reply # 145
Date: Jan 13, 2009 - 9:23 PM EST
Subject: Jim in CA
Jim thinks we should not have immigration but invitation?

Does he not know we ALREADY INVITED others to come here?

Honestly Jim would you like to tear down the Statue of Liberty?
=========

No one loves liberty more than I do, but it must make common sense for those who are here, and those who want to come.

I can see it now, you are going to have a party at your home, and you send invitations to your friends.

Some one down the street hears of the party and that invitations have been sent, so he notifies the whole neighborhood, and there you are, without enough room, enough food, enough money for everyone who came without a specific invitation.

=========

You: By the way I am a PROUD American and Carreer Military officer that opposes ILLEGAL immigration. I was lucky enough to be born in AMERICA but if i was not I would do everything i could to legally MOVE to America.

Me: Oh my goodness what a racist you are. Did that word just slip through, or did you mean to say “everything i could to legally MOVE to America” that word legally?

=========

Two suggestions: Let's have a school in a foreign country where people can attend and learn about our country, and then it can be determined if they are really interested in the USA, or just want to leave their cesspool.

And so others in that original country have a chance to live a better life, why not, after 5 or 10 years here, we send them back home to apply what they learned here, to their home country?


"The One" has a problem...

Half of his supporters hate Jews... and the other half are Jews.

There's gonna be trouble in the Garden of Eden :-)


2 spot
I'll be sure to not be right click or left click, just middle click... fair and balanced. Gotta let the students read both sides and give them the tools to analyze, right? Oops, Left? Just can't avoid that "R" word, right?

Sounds like they were invited

Akagi Location: GA
Reply # 117
Date: Jan 13, 2009 - 4:05 PM EST
Subject: Jim
So much wrong where shall I start.

"You misunderstood. The only people who should be living in the United States of America are those who are citizens, and proud happy citizens, who live within the culture we have become accustom to."
======

You: So what about students on F1 visas? How about permanent residents?

Me: Sounds like they were invited, doesn’t it?
---
You: Live within the culture you are accustomed to? What culture is that exactly?

Me: The one that includes our freedoms and our normal way of life. And yes that way of life is different in NYC, in LA, in Frisco, in Texas, and in Alaska, and on and on. Isn't that enough diversity for you?

Do you imply that if you visited France you could not recognize the non-France part of Paris?

And if you are in the hundreds of towns that have been invaded by Mexies, you couldn't tell the difference between their way of life, and a normal American way of life?

------

You: Chinatown in SF has existed since the 1850s, the one in NYC the 1880s. Mexicans lived in the SW and continued to live in the SW from the 1840s onward. Then the Germans, Italians, Swedes and on and on. Shall we forget about the Indians?

Me: So we let museums exist in our country, but only a few blocks long.

-----

How about this one. In Los Angeles there is a “Little Ethiopia,” with restaurants and stores of various kinds. Just think, millions of citizens of Ethiopia are starving, but someone opens an Ethiopian restaurant in Los Angeles, instead of helping their own people. Lovely.

Hey Israeli Appeaser Coward Tinsldr2

And only a cowardly Israeli Firster would call posters like me Islamic Terrorist Appeasers.

One reason many of us American Conservatives fell off The Israeli Sled is such things as: Israeli spying by the likes of traitors such as Jonathan Pollard and now recently Ben Ami Kadish ,The U.S. Army Mechanical Engineer,The Illegal U.S. Weapons Technology Sales to The Red Chinese ,jeopardizing our allies Taiwan and Japan.The C.F.I.U.S Investigation which forced The Israeli Company Checkpoint to remove itself from The Sourcefire Deal for U.S. Security reasons,The failure of Israeli Intelligence to inform The U.S. about The Truck they were watching which Blew The Marine Barracks in Lebanon , The deliberate Israeli Attack on The United States Naval Ship,The U.S.S. Liberty ,killing 34 of Our Seamen and wounding 174 other United States Seamen.

You're up Big Mouth.


Unamerican Jim in CA
Did you ever serve in the US military Jim? many of the finest people we have in the military are immigrants or second or third generation Americans! I served with people of many nationalities not all of whom were American citizens. Thats right, legal non-citizens are willing to sacrifice for our country in Iraq and Afghanistan right NOW!

You fail to make any reasonable point why America, which has been a Nation of Immigrants since our forefathers first came from Europe and defeated the locals that live here, would be better off sealing our borders to ALL immigrants like you proposed earlier.

Again I stand by my point, and yes i meant EXACTLY what I said in an earlier post. America was built by immigrants and is a nation that has embraced Immigration. It is the American Dream.

America is the GREATEST country in the world. If I was born elsewhere I would do everything I could to get to the US LEGALLY.

Now "illegal immigration", such as sneaking across a border without documents is different then legal immigration. We should know who is crossing our borders and where.

But I think our great nation does not need to turn the light of liberty off and replace it with a do not enter sign.

I think YOUR views are the ones that do not represent the AMERICAN dream and Ideal that our country was founded on.

Tinsldr2@yahoo.com



2spot
"The writers are barely consequential, how can you possibly think that us idiots, and all of our back and forth banter (no matter how smart you may be), matters a single wit in the "grand scheme of things"? Well, I'll tell you, it doesn't so you might as well look at it as the amusing waste of time that it really is."

I heartily disagree. Some of the commenters here have proven to be more astute than the columnists. And some are raving moonbats. It is entertaining, I'll give you that, and the comments can be a waste of time. The moonbats give me an eye-tic sometimes, with the depth and magnitude of their illogic. But the reasoned commenters who engage these moonbats offer much in the way of "meat" to chew on. Ways to deal with irrational lefties without becoming unhinged, unique perspectives. I've cut-and-pasted things by commenters here into a textfile of really good quotes. Its more than just entertainment.

Tim and America First
Tim I always put America First.

We are at war with Islamic Terrorists not at war with Israel.

Look at the example you use. Islamic Terrorists blew up the marine Barracks in beirut. yet you blame Israel for that? What sick logic can you use to come to that conclusion?

You talk about an incident on the USS Liberty that happened 40 years ago when I was like 5 years old but that is ancient history. You ignore the attack by Muslim Terrorists on the USS COLE 9 years ago.

In May 1968, Israel paid US$3,323,500 as full payment on behalf of the families of the 34 men killed in the Liberty attack. In March 1969 Israel paid a further $3,566,457 in compensation to the men who had been wounded. On 18 December 1980 Israel agreed to pay $6 million as settlement for the U.S. claim of $7,644,146 for material damage to the Liberty itself.

How much have Islamic Terrorists paid the US for the deaths they caused?

I personally have over 27 months on two tours in Iraq, while wearing the US uniform and flag patch, and have been under both direct fire and rocket fire from ISLAMIC TERRORISTS. My best Friend, Major Ed Murphy died in Afghanistan while I was on my first Iraq Tour.

I am proud of my service and he was also. I make no apology for putting AMERICA first in our fight with ISLAMIC terrorists.

Now Tim pointed out several reasons why he doesnt like ISrael but why does he support our bigger enemies the Islamic Terrorists?

I did not like the USSR and have never liked the idea of communism. Yet if I had been alive during WWII, I would have supported them in their fight against the Germans we were at WAR with.

In this case Israel is at war with the same groups we are. yet tim can not explain why he does not oppose the terrorists more then he opposes Israel.

tinsldr2@yahoo.com

Tom and immigration
Tom, thank you for yer service in Viet Nam, that was a very tough experience for the US and I respect our vets of that era.

You guys had it much rougher then we do, no doubt about that.

you asked me "Do you really think that America should accept everyone who wants to come to our nation and everyone who shows up?"

Notice in my post I stressed 'legal' immigration. I have no problem with giving immigrants health screenings, and limits to get entry visas etc. We certainly should be screening people that come here for SECURITY reasons.

Now a healthy debate on the number of immigrants we should allow is reasonable to me although this is not the place for that in my opinion.

It is only when people like Jim attack ALL immigration like he did in his post that it strikes me as crazy.

My wife is ill and I would love to higher a cheap housekeeper. I won't higher an illegal but I do wish there was a legal immigrant that would do the work most Americans won't at a price I can afford.


Tinsldr2 !

Do your homework.

Don't feign ignorance.The Israeli's were watching that truck and had it marked,because they noticed that the truck was reconfigured.
I talk about The U.S.S. Liberty because those are American Seamen and their surviving shipmates are Not "Ancient History". Tell that to The Face of The Survivors of The U.S.S.Liberty and see what happens.
I want those Israelis ,who attacked The U.S.S. Liberty to be eliminated ,the same as I want those Terrorists ,who attacked Our United States Naval Ship The U.S.S. Cole eliminated.Got It.Get It !
The Men of The U.S.S. Liberty are still pursuing Congressional Hearings to fix the blame on Israel and they will have their day.
The Israelis can Stick their Money.
Where in Iraq did you ever close on the enemy and fight him up close and personal.
What's your MOS ?
Where did I ever support Islamic Terrorist Scum,who engage Our U.S. Military,Liar?
I want those particular Terrorist Scum eliminated ,as much as ,I want the Israeli Scum ,who attacked The Liberty eliminated.

And what's with your cutey pie third person word games,I'm right here.
My Dad was a Commander in a Mech Recon. and Ranger Task Force,who linked up with the Russkie Scum in Czechoslovakia.He was ready to take them down too,while we were there in force.
Are you comparing Israel Scum to Russkie Scum ?
Buy The Way,Dad retired as a Combat Field Officer, who fought from Normandy,to Paris,To The Bulge,to The Rhine,to The Link Up.
He retired a Light Colonel,With The Bronze,The Silver, The then Presidential Unit Citation,The Croix de Guerre,The Fourragere. He's in The Book "Is Paris Burning", and stopped The Krauts on The North Shoulder at The Bulge at Monchau.

He didn't need to brag on his Military Accomplishments,He Did Them.




Do your Homework Tinsldr2 !

“Admony, in refusing to give the Americans specific information on the truck, said ‘... we’re not there to protect Americans. They’re a big country. Send only the regular information.’

“At the same time, however, all Israeli installations were given the specific details and warned to watch for a truck matching the description of the Mercedes.

Attribution: http://ariwatch.com/OurAlly/BeirutBombing.htm

Laughing my butt off at Tim
Tim makes a big deal of what went out of style when I was in 4th grade. The "my dad can beat your dad" defense."

Notice I asked him what HE did and he talks about what his dad did. HE did nothing. I had a father in-law that was a pilot in WW II Luftwaffe and Uncle in Viet nam , my diabetic since age 17 father nerver served but his uncles all served.

Tim still avoids the main point. We are at War with ISLAMIC TERRORISTS not Israel but he attacks only Israel.


To Akagi
Come back, Akagi! We have unfinished business.

First you posted examples of how Arabs behave when they 'take over'. I shot down your examples of Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar, as they are located IN Arabia, and thus were not 'taken over' by the indigenous Arabs. I provided examples of Jordan, the ex-Roman province of Palestine, and Egypt and asked you what happened to those Christian populations.

You responded with irrelevant statements about the Amerinds and 'Aztlan' for good measure.

I demonstrated that your Aztlan example had no applicability given the fact that Palestine was under British Mandate, not independent sovereignty, and asked again what happened to the Christians in those conquered lands. I challenged you to read what rights the Koran gives Arabs over the men and (especially) women whose lands they have taken.

You tossed out another red herring about a Jewish homeland in Uganda and my supposed 'British Imperialism'.

I tried to get back onto topic by pointing out that 1.5 million Arabs hold full citizenship in Israel, that the transfer of sovereignty did not rob them of their land or rights, that many Arab refugees would be peaceful and relatively prosperous citizens of Israel today had they eschewed unprovoked violence. I will add now that, had the Arabs accepted the 1947 partition plan like the Jews did, the Arabs would ALSO have all the areas they now claim to be fighting for, and MORE, while Israel would be lodged within much smaller borders. Thus, the source of the problems is NOT a matter of the nonexistent Palestinian Arab sovereignty of 1947, nor was it a matter of 'transfer of sovereignty equals dispossession'.

Now, if you actually want to hold an honest discussion of the issues, come back swinging ON TOPIC. Drop you silly red herrings, they are a pathetic waste of time.

Tinsldr2
The irony is that, if Tim were to alternately spend a week each in Israel and a series of Arab nations, then forced to choose in which nation he would permanently settle, he would pick Israel. That is because Israel, for all its faults, is a recognizable liberal democracy which respects human rights and rule of law. People like Tim would (rightly) fear for their liberties and lives in any other sort of polity.

I wonder if Tim has enough experience of the outside world to recognize this.

Oh, God, Agaki!
Israel defending itself - BAD
Taiwan asking for protection from a Chinese nuclear strike FROM the US - GREAT
Madonna, no Neo-Con herself, needing to protect her head from jihadists is what?

And, all Arab takeovers are pleasant? Islamofacists and AQ want not only to anhilate Israel, but spread Islam all over the Globe.

Brush up on your Farsi and other Arabic languages.

To Denise
Farsi is Persian, not Arabic. Other than that, I agree.

Denise
"Taiwan asking for protection from a Chinese nuclear strike FROM the US - GREAT."

Actually I don't expect much from the US in that regard. The US is a pretty fickle friend and one you rely on at your own peril. The PRC has had nuclear weapons since 1962 and its force has always been a defensive one--aimed as a deterent against more nuclear armed powers in the neighborhood--the US and the USSR/Russia. You might recall that the US basically blackmailed China with the use of nuclear weapons in both 1953 (over Korea) and 1958 (over Jinmen--aka Quemoy).

Taiwan faces no threat from PRC nuclear weapons--you don't nuke your own territory which China claims Taiwan is. The China threat has always been a conventional one and even an invasion being unlikely--the most likely military response (which is very very remote seeing who the president is and which party controls the Li Fa Yuan) against Taiwan was a blockade and raining down hundreds of its ballistic missiles sitting in Fujian as well as economic pressure. Billions and billions of NT have been invested in China by Taiwan businessmen and they wouldn't be happy if Taiwan did something to make China angry enough to make those investments go *poof*.

You might ask yourself also, who put pressure on Taiwan in the early 1980s to drop its nuclear weapons program? Oh that's right, the US. I guess Israel gets to play by one set of rules and the rest of the world another.

Denise
As was pointed out to you, Farsi isn't Arabic. Note also that many Muslims are not Arabs and some Arabs aren't Muslim. Is Malay and Indonesian and Pashto and Urdu Arab languages as well? All Arab takeovers? Do you mean Arab or Islamic? You seem confused on this point, so I have no idea what you mean since you don't either.

To akagi
If you're right that PRC poses no nuclear threat to Taiwan, then why would Taiwan *need* a nuclear program?

If you are correct that PRC only maintains nukes as a deterrent against those who already have them, then Taiwan's development of nukes would not only be needless, it would be actively dangerous, by greatly heightening nuclear tensions in the region (and thus, the world). Therefore, the U.S. would have been right to pressure Taiwan to stop its project. Indeed, Taiwan would have been amazingly foolish, almost suicidal, to court catastrophe in that manner.


Talli
"The irony is that, if Tim were to alternately spend a week each in Israel and a series of Arab nations, then forced to choose in which nation he would permanently settle, he would pick Israel."

On this we agree.

To akagi
"You seem confused on this point, so I have no idea what you mean since you don't either."

I, on the other hand, meant Arab takeovers, since that was the phrase used in the earlier part of the discussion. Bringing us back to my question to you: if Arab takeovers are NOT very coercive and oppressive, what happened to the Christian cultures of the Levant and Egypt? You still haven't answered.

Contrasting the condition of the conquered in Arab nations, the Arabs who remained peacefully in Israel in 1948 are FULL citizens of that nation, their religion is protected and they have equal access to legal protection. Their numbers have increased since the incorporation of Israel, rather than declining and being aggressively assimilated as happens to populations historically conquered by Arabs.

Gotta go for a while </