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Tuesday, December 09, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Response to Marc Shaiman’s Musical Against Prop 8
by Dennis Prager
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Marc Shaiman, the Tony Award-winning composer of the film and stage musical “Hairspray,” has done the country a major, if inadvertent, service. He has composed a brief musical piece against California Proposition 8 that takes only three minutes to reveal the ignorance and hate that pervades so much anti-Proposition 8 activism.

This short musical, viewed more than 2 million times on the Internet, features major Hollywood talents playing (through song) two groups on a beach -- gay men and women in beach clothes and a stuffy formally dressed church group composed of whites and blacks.

Its message begins with a religious man and woman reacting to the cheerful gay group (celebrating the Barack Obama victory) by singing these words:

“Look! Nobody’s watching

It’s time to spread some hate

And put it in the constitution

Now, how? Proposition Hate!

Great!”

Shaiman puts hateful words in the mouths of the religious proponents of the man-woman definition of marriage: “It’s time to spread some hate and put it in the constitution.” But no one put hate in the constitution. The only words Proposition 8 added to the California Constitution were: “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” What is hateful about that? It may be wrong, but why is it hateful?

All the hate publicly expressed in the Prop. 8 battle has come from activists like Shaiman. For the record, most gays have not joined these radical activists. It is radical gays and radical straights who have led the movement to smear the Mormon Church and to compile blacklists of those who gave money to the Proposition 8 campaign. As one of many examples of their vindictiveness, Shaiman himself is directly responsible for forcing Scott Eckern, the Mormon artistic director of the California Musical Theater, to resign because he made a personal contribution to Prop 8.

As for ignorance, the first distortion follows immediately, explaining the way religious people will succeed in putting their hatred into the Constitution.

“People, listen to our plea
They’ll teach kids about sodomy!”
And then the gay group responds:
“That wasn’t right, that’s a lie!”
And the church group counters:
“But it worked, so we don’t care!”

No one ever mentioned sodomy being taught in schools. But it is in no way a “lie” to argue that when marriage discussions arise in school classes, children will be taught about princes marrying princes and princesses marrying princesses. It has already begun.

To cite one of many examples, in Massachusetts, whose Supreme Court has legalized same-sex marriage, second graders at the Joseph Estabrook Elementary School in Lexington “used the children's book, ‘King & King’ as part of a lesson about different types of weddings Lexington Superintendent of Schools Paul Ash said Estabrook … has no legal obligation to notify parents about the book … ‘Lexington is committed to teaching children about the world they live in, and in Massachusetts same-sex marriage is legal’” (Boston Globe, April 20, 2006).

Likewise, shortly after the California Supreme Court, in a 4-3 decision, overturned an earlier California proposition defining marriage as man-woman, students in a Northern California elementary school were taken to their female teacher’s wedding to her female partner.

The next distortion Shaiman puts into the mouth of a religious man comes when Jesus Christ shows up between the two groups, and the religious man says to Jesus:

“Jesus, doesn’t the Bible say these people are an abomination?”

And Jesus responds, “Yeah.”

It is quite audacious, to put it mildly, to have Jesus tell a falsehood in a musical seen by millions. Yet, no one seems to care about Mr. Shaiman’s distorted depiction of Jesus and of the Bible.

The fact is that nowhere in the Bible are homosexuals called “an abomination.” And no one, beyond one sick fringe family that has no standing in any religious community, refers to gays as “abominations.” On the contrary, religious opponents of same-sex marriage always speak of “hating the sin, not the sinner.” They speak of love for gays; it is the activists for same-sex marriage who express hate -- for the Mormons, the Orthodox Jews, the evangelical Christians, the traditional Catholics, the African-Americans (whose lopsided vote in favor Prop 8 is widely credited with passing the Proposition) and for all the others who seek to keep marriage defined as man-woman.

This is followed by another distortion of the Bible, again from the mouth of Jesus:

“… but you know it says exact the same thing (“abomination”) about this shrimp cocktail!”

Shaiman, one suspects, has not carefully studied Leviticus. As fate would have it, I am currently teaching the Book of Leviticus at the American Jewish University, the West Coast seminary of Conservative Judaism. And Shaiman tells a half-truth. Yes, Leviticus calls shellfish “an abomination” and uses the same word for sexual acts between men. However, the text states that shellfish is an abomination “for you,” i.e., for Jews alone (Leviticus 11.12). The act of a man “lying with a man as with a woman” is labeled “an abomination” without the qualifying words “for you.” And Jews who do eat shellfish are never called or considered “abominations” any more than men who engage in homosexual acts are.

Jews alone are prohibited from killing and eating pork, shellfish, and the other non-Kosher creatures. These Kosher laws of the Torah prohibited Jews from killing and eating most species of animals thousands of years ago. The reasons for why certain species are permitted and why some are not are far too complex for a column. But Professor Jacob Milgrom, author of the three-volume Anchor Bible commentary on Leviticus, convincingly demonstrates that the Torah’s dietary laws are overwhelmingly concerned with ethics and holiness.

But none of that matters. In an age when most college graduates know little or nothing about the Bible -- which, until the baby boomer generation, was the most widely read, most widely studied, and most widely revered book in America -- they will learn all they think they need to know about the Bible and homosexuality from a three-minute musical on the Internet.

Hatred based on ignorance is known as bigotry. Making the bigotry of much of the anti-Proposition 8 activism apparent is Marc Shaiman’s significant, if inadvertent, contribution.

Why can’t Shaiman and his fellow activists acknowledge that there are good people on both sides of this issue? Those of us who supported Proposition 8 readily acknowledge that many good people differ with us. Neither position is inherently hateful, but this little musical is.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Shaiman's Musical
Shaiman should stick musicals like Hairspray...obviously he knows little about the bible, and definitely has no business quoting Jesus. And it is true that if Prop 8 didn't pass, discussions would arise about princes marrying princes and princesses marrying princesses. This is only stating the obvious.

Religious people who are for Prop 8 and keeping marriage defined as between a man and a woman are not the ones that hate. And they are not out there writing hateful songs about it or telling lies about the ones that differ.

Prager is a hypocrite and a fraud
Prager, did you once share with your audience that the "conservative" "Republican" governor of yours Schwarzenegger illegally authorized changes to and issuance of marriage certificates to same sex couples in direct violation of his own sworn oath and Prop 22 which has still not changed?

Why did you suppress this truth for so long Dennis?

Why did you advance the lie that the court "legalized" same sex "marriage" in the first place?

You might think that the "radical homosexuals" pose the more grave threat to our Republic.

I think neo-cons who blithely disregard the law and prop up liberal lies that court can "legalize stuff" are far more dangerous.

Wolves in sheep's clothing are always more dangerous than wolves in wolves clothing.

And you Dennis Prager are a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Fortunately, real followers of the Jewish Messiah Jesus are tuning guys like you, Medved, and Hewitt out.

His sheep shall know His voice...


If I had know about Shaiman..
I might not have gone to see Hairspray several months ago. It was a funny musical, but I hate to think I'm financially supporting someone with such disgusting views (though I wouldn't want to punish the performers over that fool). Talk about intolerant. It's amazing he paints Christians with such a broad brush. Most Christians that I know have very nuanced views and are not the simplistic bigots that he would make us out to be. And frankly I'd bet that most prop 8 opponents do not hold such simplistic views of prop 8 supporters as Shaiman.

Lie?
Dennis writes:
=====
The next distortion Shaiman puts into the mouth of a religious man comes when Jesus Christ shows up between the two groups, and the religious man says to Jesus:

“Jesus, doesn’t the Bible say these people are an abomination?”

And Jesus responds, “Yeah.”

It is quite audacious, to put it mildly, to have Jesus tell a falsehood in a musical seen by millions. Yet, no one seems to care about Mr. Shaiman’s distorted depiction of Jesus and of the Bible.
=====
Later, he writes:
=====
In an age when most college graduates know little or nothing about the Bible
=====
I suspect Mr. Shaiman also graduated from college, and is probably also ignorant of the Bible. Is it a lie if he doesn't know what the Bible actually says?

The left fears Christianity.

Remember the rage directed against Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ” or the critical contempt for 2006's "The Nativity Story."

If one had been influenced by MSN's Dana Kennedy, you'd have burned Mel Gibson and sent Blessed Mary to Planned Parenthood with or without a gift voucher.

The push to 'over secularize’ the Christmas Holiday is propeled by the militant gays and hod carried for them by assorted fringe communities such as the hobby atheists.

This need to assail Christian worship and tradition is driven by those whose personal sexual conduct is not celebrated in scripture.

The gays and their fellow travelers feel the opprobrium and stigma in their soulless lives and hence demand that the tradition that does not condone them be as marginalized as they have rendered themselves.

The attack on Christ is gay driven by those whose psyche is repulsed by their acts and squalid lives.

Is it any wonder that the community where the liquor merchants find the greatest sales is the gay community?

Like outdoor cats, gays live sad, self-worthless lives that cannot accept the joy of the Nativity and therefore seek to neuter it as they have done to their own hearts.

These inveiglers that don't know or understand the difference between the old and new testament just smirk at faith and say, see what I can get away with as they play the martinet for those that cannot face God or be at peace with those that would.

Man, this article...
...is so gay! Seriously though, I've read some gay articles -of which this is one- and boy howdy, I'm 'bout ta spew all over this here key-thinga-maboard! I mean really, STOP THE HOMO-GO-ROUND!, I need to take a leave of absence. Please people, can't we all just get on back to 1966? The world was kind of sane then, wasn't it?

Oh well, who needs God when you got desires and folks willing to gratify them instantly?.... What? Is this being done all in questions? I don't know, what do you think?

I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense anymore. He made us to fit a certain way, physically AND spiritually, and now there is not only people who think that is as disgusting as I think their act of abomination is, but they want to force me and my family to validate and embrace their perversions, lest we be labled hate filled, hate mongerers. And hating, ignorant hate monkeys. And stupendously stupid purveyors of hatefulness. (are you catching a theme here?)

Oh for worldly "morals", just give us the Word and a prayer for those lost souls who, as yet, do not understand it. And give us the patience to bring it to them. Again and again,
amen.


Prop 8
http://prop8isgay.com/

Is It Clear?
I've known Mr. Prager's work and appreciated his writing and debating style for many years. This article is not "up to snuf." (Gee, where'd that expression come from)?

I mean, I'm a pretty good reader, and I really had to slow down, then go back over some of the phrases and sentences, in order to understand just what was each little point Denis was trying to make.

I'm not his teacher, so I am not employed to mark up his paper. I'll just wonder, do any of the rest of you out there feel this is a clumsy bit of writing, for Denis Prager?

Maybe it is because I listened to him on the Internet radio, while he talked these same points, on the issue, and in the talking he came off very clear and sensible.

All I am trying to say is Mr. Prager is not a very good reviewer of theatre, even a short one act.

Yes, I am being picky. But a beter writng critic ought to be able to make a shambles of Shaiman, and Denis certainly did not do that, here.

Gay Manger in Amsterdam
There's a gay activist in Amsterdam who's created a public manger scene in which Mary and Joseph are played by a gay and a lesbian couple. Do a web search on "Pink Christmas."

Gays and lesbians won't get anywhere by deliberately antagonizing Christians. It's counter-productive.

Why Haven't GLBT's Picketed Moslems?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not that strident in its beliefs on homosexuality. In fact, they counsel full fellowship for celibate homosexuals. There is a congregation in Salt Lake City composed of non-practicing homosexuals who wish to keep Christ’s commandments.

So far, no gay-rights activist has had the fortitude to burn a Qur’an on the doorstep of a militant mosque where imams advocate the stoning of homosexuals (even celibate ones).

Oh, I forgot, criticizing Moslems is off-limits for the Politically Correct. The Moslem imams might issue a “fatwa” on all homosexuals.


Why Can't GLBT's Tell the Truth?
The anti-Prop 8, pro gay marriage groups ran ads charging this whole idea that public schools will teach gay marriage is just a "lie."

The same groups now charging it’s a lie (public schools will teach about gay marriage whether parents like it or not) — were just in court in Massachusetts filing amicus briefs arguing parents don't have any right to opt their children out of the pro-gay marriage curriculum.

From the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) Amicus Curiae Brief:
“In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, where the right of same-sex couples to marry is protected under the state constitution, it is particularly important to teach children about families with gay parents.” [p 5]

From the Human Rights Campaign Amicus Curiae Brief:
“There is no constitutional principle grounded in either the First Amendment’s free exercise clause or the right to direct the upbringing of one’s children, which requires defendants to either remove the books now in issue – or to treat them as suspect by imposing an opt-out system.” [pp1-2]

From the ACLU Amicus Curiae Brief:
“Specifically, the parents in this case do not have a constitutional right to override the professional pedagogical judgment of the school with respect to the inclusion within the curriculum of the age-appropriate children’s book…King and King.” [p 9]

Which side is really telling the truth here about its aims? I suspect the “Yes on 8” folks keep many more of the Ten Commandments (including “Bearing false witness”) than the “No on 8” side (some of whom subscribe to the “Ten Suggestions”).

For the record...
The bible does not say to love homosexuals, it says to put them to death:

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as with woman, he has done that which is abominable. He is to be put to death. His blood will be on his own head."

Prager's parsing
Prager writes: "On the contrary, religious opponents of same-sex marriage always speak of “hating the sin, not the sinner.”"

Actually most religious bigots are not so loving. In fact, the command in Leviticus 18:29 is quite clear: "For whoever shall do any of these abominations, the persons that do them shall be cut off from among their people." So, while the Bible may not refer to homosexuals themselves as "abominations," according to its teaching it is perfectly permissible to treat them as if they were.




Proposition 8 Response
Mr. Prager,
Concerning your commentary "A Resoponse to Marc Shaiman's Musical Against Prop 8", your statement "The fact is that nowhere in the Bible are homosexuals called 'an abomination'." is inaccurate. Leviticus 18:22 says: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with wonankind: it is abomination."

Note to self:
Read http://www.reason.com before posting.

My Head Hurts...
It is the "in" thing now to be an activist and force your opinion on others and claim it to be "tolerance". I'm so sick of these stupid, loud-mouth, arrogant activists that I could scream! I guess the loudest wheel gets the grease, and in America it sure seems like the media and Congress are giving it all to the obnoxious activists, whether they are gay, pro-abortion, or global warming fanatics. God help us all.

lTz3Td52 Parsing
Try to understand the OT in it's historical context. The laws explained in Leviticus were given to a specific tribal people (the israelites) necessary for their survival and legal purity. The fullness of the Word of God is in Jesus Christ. Look in the NT.

Where Church and State meet
A “penumbra” (see Griswold v. Conn) casts a decisive legal shadow over the Prop 8 matter. Christians that wish to preserve traditional marriage represent the great majority in California – and their will prevailed in the passage of Prop 8.

It is here that Church and State meet – and for the CA Supremes to deny Christians their right to protect traditional marriage is an intolerant act of discrimination against them – a crossing of the line where the State
interferes with traditional religious practice.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php ?storyid=9345

God created humankind male and female
Why is same-sex marriage a contradiction to true Christians in all denominations? The revelation in Scripture is the intention of the Creator regarding marriage means His original intention. What this was Jesus tells us and Jesus confirmed. At the beginning the Creator "made them male and female" and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." So they are no longer two, but one. Then Jesus added his personal endorsement and deduction: "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

In other words, God created humankind male and female. God instituted marriage as a male-female union, and what God has thus established, no secular civil authority has the right to change without interfering with a religious practice and tradition extending over many thousands of years. God established that the only context which he intended for the "one flesh" experience is a male-female monogamy, and that a same-sex relationship (however loving and committed it may claim to be) can never be considered as a legitimate alternative to traditional marriage. There are no verses in Scripture that condones same-sex relationships or same-sex marriage marriage!

By a decisive majority vote of the citizens, Pro 8 provides a Constitutional Amendment sustaining the legislative intent of Prop 22 that marriage is between a man and a woman.

Gay Madness And Hollywood

The relentless attacks against Christians
and traditional values by radical Gay wackos and the entertainment industry continues.

They got together to make this little film which demeans Jesus and Christians. The mainstream media, of course, could care less. If the film would have insulted Muhammad and Muslims, there would be wall to wall coverage .

What can WE do? Well, Jack Black, who plays Jesus in the film, feels it's just wonderful to mock Christ and Christians. Fine. I'll never buy a DVD starring Black. I'll never go to a movie starring or co-starring Black.

Sean Penn and Jack Black.

If their moives were free, I wouldn't go. If you paid me, I wouldn't go.





WHAT'S IN A WORD?
"THEY ARE AN ABOMINATION"- iT'S NOT THE "THEY", IT'S THE "WHAT THEY ARE DOING" THAT'S THE ABOMINATION. MOST CHRISTIANS RECOGNIZE THIS. UNFORTUNATELY, THE RADICALS GIVE US ALL A BAD NAME.

Civil marriage vs. Holy Matrimony
Legalizing civil marriage between gays and lesbians does not threaten the concept of "Holy Matrimony". Churches and other religious institutions would be able to maintain their right to decide which unions would gain their blessing. Right now, some churches will not marry people who are not members of their church. Some will not marry couples if one of the partners is divorced. This is the prerogative of the church and this would not change.

In essence, all marriages performed by justices of the peace in courthouses are "civil unions". Holy Matrimony is different. Let's not forget the importance of separation of church and state!

my 2 cents
Q: "Why can't Shaiman and his fellow activists acknowledge that there are good people on both sides of this issue?"

Isn't it obvious? If they were to do so it would acknowledge that there are indeed two sides to the question and they couldn't have that.

A Constitution-based system works like
this: 1)a Constitution is passed; 2)subsequent laws are passed; 3)if a law is challenged, the Supreme Court reviews the challenge; 4)the Supreme Court has the final say on a law's Constitutionality.
The California Supreme Court ruled the marriage limits of the state in 2008 to be un-Consitutional.
That should have been the end of it.
It wasn't. For the first time, a specific group of people tried to "amend" the Constitution to take away rights from another group of people which the State Supreme Court had deemed to be inherent in the Consitution.
The Prop 8 instigators and supporters want to change the rules after the game has commenced. They didn't accept the rule of law; they wanted to change that rule.
If Prager wants to discuss ignorance, he might begin with a basic civics lesson: The Supreme Court has the final say on an issue of law. If you don't like that, go to Cuba.

That's great!
"Subject: Gay Manger in Amsterdam
There's a gay activist in Amsterdam who's created a public manger scene in which Mary and Joseph are played by a gay and a lesbian couple. Do a web search on "Pink Christmas."

I love the Dutch, no wonder, I am one myself. Fortunately, in the Netherlands no one is offended by these things anymore. Americans, especially the lunatics here at TH, have long way to go!

It's tough to be called a hateful bigot
Obviously the religious right is so uncomfortable with it that their leading voices write column after column trying to remove hte label from themselves and reattach it to the gay activists and their straight supporters. While it will convince the gay-haters themselves, it will convince no one else.

The reason for this is simple. The religious right is singling out a group for disparate treatment, preventing them from something everyone else has. You are trying to keep a vulnerable minority (and contrary to Mr. Prager's conciliatory words - a despised minority here at Townhall) from being treated like everyone else and having equal protection under the law. The basis for this is either a religious precription on homosexuality, imposed by fiat of law on those with differing beliefs, or a general animus toward homosexuals.

And frankly, Mr. Prager has it backwards. I, a supporter of gay marriage rights, have often recognized that good people can disagree with me, but rarely do people on his side of the issue say the same.


Cherry picking the bible
Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. There blood shall be upon them."

Prager says that the Bible doesn't say homosexuals are an abomination.

The Bible is clearly saying that a homosexual act is an abomination. So homosexuals are not condemned, just homosexual activity? Sorry Prager, that just doesn't wash. The very act that defines a person as a homosexual is an abomination, but the person himself is not? Then why doesn't God say that we should stone the act and not the person?

Question: For all of those who call your selves Bible believing Christians, why don't you call for the death penalty for gays? The Bible could not be more clear about what is to be done.

When are you folks going to admit that your holy book is filled with barbaric, ignorant and hate-filled passages? When are you going to admit that there might be more elevated forms of morality than the Bible?

I would appreciate some open and honest answers to these questions. It seems to me that you folks are intentionally overlooking the less desirable parts of what you call "God's word".

And if you cherry pick this part of the Bible out, why not other parts?

Phylo out.

Gay-haters???
Allen - I'm not a gay-hater, yet I'm a firm believer in Mr. Prager's logical stance. What hateful name would you call those with this view?

Stop the cherry picking
Please, people. If something is an abomination and you want laws to prevent people from committing abominations then a little consistency would be nice...

Contact your legislature to insist on anti-abomination laws against divorce, infidelity, shell fish, improper animals for sacrifice, women wearing pants, certain meats, false idols (sorry all you Buddhists and Hindus), etc. etc...


Curious
"The only words Proposition 8 added to the California Constitution were: 'Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.' What is hateful about that? It may be wrong, but why is it hateful?"

The more fervent on the left read hate into the above. The more fervent on the right read hate into the following.

"Standing alongside the baby Jesus is a giant placard designed by atheists that reads: 'There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.'"

And around and around we go. It seems the intelligent people on both sides of the "culture war" have left the building and are letting the idiots call the shots. I consider myself to be reasonable and moderately intelligent, and I don't see "hate" implied in either case.

The Bible
I love it when predominantly atheistic, hedonistic pro-gay activists quote the Bible to support their point of view. As if by taking one verse out of context they can nullify the entirety of the book to suit their needs. What a tautological load of baloney, "we don't believe in this book, but since you do this passage supports what we do believe."

Marriage is what it is, period; up til now it has never needed a "legal" definition, even in ancient Greece, where homosexuality was rampant. The only reason gays want "marriage" is to force the populace, vis-a-vis government fiat, to accept their aberrant lifestyle. You want acceptance, gay community? Stop trying to ramrod your lifestyle into my (me being joe average) living room.

Why should anyone approve of

or glorify acts of same-sex sodomy? What is socially redeeming about acts of same-sex sodomy?

Why do advocates of same-sex sodomy lie about sexual orientation being discriminated against by marriage laws in the U.S.A.? Do not they know that marriage laws apply to all same-sex pairings or relationships regardless of the sexual orientation of the two wanting to get married? Or, do they know that and just want to keep lying about it to gain an advantage? If the latter, that should tell you all you need to know about the proponents of same-sex sodomy?

Correction
"No one ever mentioned sodomy being taught in schools."
The prop. 8 people definitely did. They made a whole commercial about it right before the election. Also I remember seeing articles on Townhall about that very thing.

Is there a rational reason to extend

marriage to same-sex couples? If so, no one has articulated it yet?

Remember, no where in the U.S.A. does a marriage law discriminate based on sexual orientation.

All same-sex couples are forbidden to marry regardless of their sexual orientation, whether it be homosexual or heterosexual.

andy56
Not everyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong automatically hates gay people, it is true. But a lot of them do. One need only read the posts here on Townhall to see it.

As I have said before, it is not bigoted to have a sincere religious belief that homosexuality is wrong, or that marriage is intended to be between one man and one woman. If that is your belief, I will defend your right to hold it and to worship in a manner consistent with it and your right to be free from having to marry a member of the same sex.

However, it is bigoted when one attempts to legislatively or consitutionally impose that belief on others who don't subscribe to it, and it is both bigoted and unamerican when doing so violates the others' constitutional and fundamental right to equal protection under the law.

Public recognition of gay marriage does not harm those people opposed to it. Forbidding gay people to marry each other harms both them and their children.

In the 1st Book of Liberals...
...it is written: chapter 6, verse 6, para 6, "Man shall not lie to man, about man laying with man. If he does, he shall bare the punishment of a hot springs enema -unless thou has proclaimed this to be a joyful activity- in which case thou will be dressed as an old, believing, faithful woman and put amongst his own to be dealt with as they see fit. If thou likes that, yo a** 'bout to get stoned right to death, fool. Ah-men"

1 Book of Libs,6:6,7 Having been stoned to death, our great messiah will rise 3 thousand years later, in the land of Frisco, to start the beginning of the end. And so it is written...

eddie
Like Donny in the big Leboswki, "you are out of your element."

The argument you are making doesn't hold water. It has been rejected by the United States Supreme Court and every State Supreme Court which has considered the issue. You're clearly not a constitutional scholar.

We're not lying about the discriminatory nature of current marriage laws. You are. Or, you're just ignorant.

Mike
Pi$$ off! Everyone knows that you can find anything you want in the Bible. You just have to take it out of context and it will mean whatever you want it to. It, however doesn't mean that that is what the writer meant.

eddie
I am confused about this:

Why do advocates of same-sex sodomy lie about sexual orientation being discriminated against by marriage laws in the U.S.A.? Do not they know that marriage laws apply to all same-sex pairings or relationships regardless of the sexual orientation of the two wanting to get married? (Eddie 12/9/08)

Are you saying that gay people can get married to people of the opposite gender, just like straight people, and therefore there is no discrimination? Is that the argument you are making?
Because if you are, that is just the point. When the law says that straight people can marry who they want, but not gay people, that is discrimination. We can't stop individual humans from being discriminatory, but we want the law to stop reflecting this bias. We want everyone to be able to marry whomever they want to marry.
I have read many diatribes from conservatives denouncing the concept of gay marriage. The basic argument seems to be that gay marriage will interfere with their own marriages somehow. I still don't see how that could be, but that seems to be the big fear.

Love me and my gayness!!!?????
Why must I approve of something that I find offensive? Is it in the constitution?

Why must society approve and give license to something that society views as immoral?

Why must our children have the amoral philosophy of the gay community taught as the gospel truth in our schools?

Why must the gays label all who disagree with their immoral conduct hateful bigots? Is it because that they hate any who disapprove with all their being?

BTW: Isaiah 5:20-24 has something to say to that "Biblical scholar" CA mike: "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight."



Hyposcrisy thy name is Fundamentalist
The cornerstone of Christians on this site is the inerrant Bible. The Bible is fact in every word and is the Word and Law of God.

Mike from CA cites very nasty passages from the Bible that none of you follow. You allow your holiest of holies to be attacked and ridiculed but will not defend your God. And, Like Prager, if you do defend your Bible it is parsed and not really what the Bible says. What utter hogwash.

The Bible is the inerrant word of God. It says what it means and it means what it says.

fair enough Allen
There are SNL skits, all kinds of humor out there that will offend just about anybody.
Gay people offend just by being honest about being gay.

Gay children offend their peers just by showing up in school and expressing themselves in unconventional accessories. A 15 year old was shot to death by a fellow student who bullied the other, earlier this year for that very reason.
In light of these events, it was candlelight vigils that were held, not loud rallies.

This musical might be one way of laughing to keep from crying.

If you only knew...
The consensus here IS hostile, and convinced of victimization from 'militant homosexuals'.

So WHAT if schools are teaching about the reality and inevitability of gay people in all our lives?

So WHAT?
What the real complaint is, and isn't being honestly discussed, is that you don't want gay people to ever be trusted, cared for or seen as normal.
When gay people do, or want to do what normal people DO do, it's cast as having sinister motive and implications.

You can't LIE to children. They are the bull and contradiction meters in our lives.

To assert that gay people can't be loved or trusted, puts them in the terrible position of being forced to feel that way about their own family and loved ones.
And that, is the nastiest cut of all.

eddie
The rational reason to extend marriage to same sex couples:
In the US, we have a principle of equality under the law.
That is the rational reason. But I have a better idea.
"Marriage" should be made a religious institution, with religions and churches could administering it according to their customs. This institution should have no legal recognition whatsoever.
Meanwhile, for insurance benefits, inheritance rights, tax purposes etc. there should be civil unions that cover hetero and same-sex couples equally.
What do you think of this idea?

I Guess
Ankle Grabbers find Prop 8 HARD TO SWALLOW!

to be clear
Allen, I didn't mean you, but the collective 'you' here with such invective and misinformation regarding what gay people care about and their motives for what they do.

Your statement is fair.

But as someone pointed out, hasn't Prager or any of the other TH contributors seen the hostility and nastiness directed at gay people, LONG before Prop 8 was even at issue?

Nearly every article is a rallying cry and assertion that gay people are 'out to get' normal people, re: heterosexuals.

This is a clear exploitation of already entrenched stereotypes and fear.

And the price paid has such a range of risks, one has to challenge the belief that gay people EVER deserved any of this.

The claims of victimhood from and by the TH majority is ludicrous.
So is the lack of sympathy and empathy for the gay minority, but such sympathy is hijacked, while at the same time...demands for sympathy or censure FROM gay people for the poor heterosexual victims out there of homosexual militancy and threat.

It is beyond mind boggling how things are twisted around to make the majority the only ones to be trusted about gay people and their lives.

While gay people themselves have barely had the opportunity to inform the public of their reality and abilities.

Golda Meir was so right. You can't shake hands with a fist.
And it's not gay people constantly wielding the fist.

Irony.
The video's use of Separation of Church and state...Consider that is exactly what they want to Violate. "Marriage" is a Religious Rite, not a Constitutional Right.

what other cartharsis is there?
It's all too obvious that few here care about what was taken away and what position it put thousands of gay couples in.

It's all to easy to judge harshly the actions that occurred since the amendment passed.
But SOME cartharsis was inevitable, and necessary.

Some people were going to go about it in ways that weren't necessarily positive or inoffensive.

But ARE gay people to do? What if it had been the heterosexual majority who'd been treated this way?

Apparently no one will be honest about that.
Contrary to popular belief here, gay people do love, and cherish each other and their children and whatever creature comforts they can give in that regard.
The pain, confusion and anger out there is LEGITIMATE.

So I'm asking the bunch here: how is a gay person to know what WOULDN'T offend you? And how are they going to avoid doing so?

Invisibility, pretending they don't have feelings, or ambition or passion isn't an option for anything with a pulse.
Gay folks were BROUGHT out for lack of being left alone and treated fairly.
These are the consequences of dealing with real people, not doormats.


Uhm?
I know this article is about same sex marriage, but this passage was what really caught my attention:

"However, the text states that shellfish is an abomination “for you,” i.e., for Jews alone (Leviticus 11.12). The act of a man “lying with a man as with a woman” is labeled “an abomination” without the qualifying words “for you.”"

I've never heard this interpretation of the book of Leviticus before. If Prager's interpretation is correct, how is this not moral relativism? Why would eating shellfish be an abomination for Israelites but no one else?


wrong BiasGirl
It's both. One has the CHOICE of a religious ceremony, but the license to marry is lodged with the state.

Religious institutions can refuse to marry whatever couple meets their religious reprobation. That is ALSO a choice.

The current LEGAL definition of marriage, by consent, by adults and by the non married and related does not change with the inclusion of gay couples.
There is no rational basis to exclude a gay person from marrying ANOTHER gay person who is their most compatible CHOICE.

The state's restrictions are STATUS based, not attribute or condition based.

The typical reasons given by the TH majority are NOT LEGAL, so imposing what isn't legal for anyone on gay people would be wrong and unConstitutional.

And you are from one of those very states that not only will not allow marriage for gay people, but will also void private wills, and any other legal arrangement between a same sex couple ONLY.

And several states have similar law. Exploding all the assertions that such arrangements would be respected and enforced.

We have a supremely MISINFORMED bunch here.
Especially on the basics. Like whether a gay person chooses that orientation.

So stuck on stupid for that alone.

GET IT OUT OF THE CLASSROOM.
Speaking personally schools should be a place for reading, writing, arithmatic, science, and history.

Keep the social feel goody goody crap homosexual education out of my kid's elementary school.

I'll teach my kids about heterosexuality and the "alternative" sexual lifestyle in my own time in my own way.

We are lagging far behind in education. Kids are graduating who can not read, spell, speak properly, and we're concerned about homosexual education?

American schools need to focus on real education, not social, liberal, touchy feely homosexual agendas.

Sex education topics are the responsibility of parents, not elite school boards and teachers with liberal ideas on how my kids should be indoctrinated.

To Mike from CA
Sir, your knowledge of the Bible could be shoved up an ants butt and would roll around in there like a golf ball in a box car.

You may want to take a Bible class from someone who is very knowledgeable about the history, the languages of the time and the context in which the author is writing. It's actually very fascinating and intereseting, if you would just take the time, open up your mind and put aside any preconceived notions you have about the Bible and really learn about it.

It kills me how people who do what you are doing, don't bother to sincerely study and research what you're criticizing. The Bible is an extremely complex book to really get to understand, some spend a lifetime trying to learn it.

It has been my expierience...
...that the people who cry "hate" the most are the most hateful.

You know who you are.

wow
Could Prager really not see why tearing marriages apart through force of law could be seen as an act of hate? That seems hard to believe.

One reason that the label "homophobia" does not seem that inaccurate is precisely because the arguments in its favor seem to require people missing the obvious. Does Prager think that a constitutional amendment forbiding interracial marriage would not constitute an act of hate if done calmly? I would assume not. He seems capable of dressing himself and speaking in complete sentences, so he presumably is not that stupid. And yet he either doesn't see, or pretends not to see, why people whose marriages, or right to marriage or taken away would characterize things in that way.

Dave,
Parents are considerably ignorant, afraid or uninformed TOO. They CANT be the only people left do decide. They are unqualified to teach their children the comprehensive facts about human sexuality, sociology or how kids have to be integrated to GET ALONG with people in the world unlike themselves.

And the incredible misinformation here from this thread is a case in point on how vital that education is.
What if Brown vs. Brd of Ed. had been overturned. And every stupid myth and stereotype had been advanced in schools regarding black people, and black kids never had an opportunity to attend with other kids?

Segregation of gay children and facts on gay people cannot be allowed.
The consequences have motivated anything from school shootings to abuses of gay children from their own parents.
Your way, has a record of terrible failure. So there is no point in fostering fear.

Education is peace and civility too.

Tolerance?
Marriage is a privilege, not a right. Each state has similar yet varying requirements to get married. If one of the state's requirements be that the persons applying for the marriage license be one male and one female, then that's the way it is. You do still have to apply for a marriage License, same as you do for your drivers license. And I think sometimes too much tolerance leads to chaos and anarchy. That is why we have laws that define right and wrong. The state does not tolerate murder.

Krista
You said:

"Marriage is a privilege, not a right."

I think what you meant to say was:

"I don't know what I'm talking about."

Those people who do know what they're talking about (namely, SCOTUS) say this:

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942).

du in CA,
Schools are not for liberal social engineering.

The liberals and lousy parents have ruined the public school system in the United States. Drop out rates, illiteracy, and ignorance abound. We are losing competitiveness in the world and you're concerned about teaching acceptance of sexual lifestyles?

Government is not the answer. Parents that motivate their kids are.

Kids will deal with other kids in their own manner.

Cut the crap and let the chips fall where they may, I'm sick of making excuses for poor parenting and expecting the government to do the job parents.

You are a typical liberal who thinks the government knows what is best for my children.

Let the schools teach the basics and stop playing parent and babysitter.

Listen carefull:
All you anti Prop 8 leftist intolerant creeps:

Consume excrement and expire slowly!!

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Dave you want schools to stop
playing parent and babysitter? Who do you think should do this job? Parents, you say. Well, many of them don't and often for reasons that are not their fault, i.e. they have to go to work and can't afford private day care. Conservatives have forced schools into this role by not funding other programs (nutrition, day care, welfare) that could take some of the burden off public schools. Furthermore, they have forced schools into a position of performing this role poorly by refusing to fund the mandate adequately. If you want schools to step aside, think about your attitude toward social programs designed to care for children.

Too little, too late
Seems the Gay activists started too late, maybe they should have started their campaign BEFORE Nov 4th.

Primavolta - CA
It isn't the job of the federal government to educate our children. Or to have a department of education, let alone public school system, so your argument that it's the republicans fault is moot.

Read the tenth amendment.

Jo
What is your point? You think that the federal government has no responsibility to the citizens of this country? You think illiteracy is a small price to pay for keeping the government out of our affairs? The federal government administers so many programs that are not provided for in the constitution. Do you think we should get rid of all of them, consequences be damned?

Mike and Wrat Wrangler
Well put Mike. One has only to scroll down a bit to Wrat Wrangler's words of wisdom to see where the hate really is. Most of those who post on this site say they don't hate gays. They just wish all of us would die. And then they say that gays are hateful.

hey mike
slavery is already back, its called working and paying your taxes

wonder why most of the post on this article are from ca. when you go back and read them, you can feel the hate coming from them. just because someone has a different feeling or thought, you get shot at on here.

who cares what gays (mads) want to do, let them get married, just dont force it on everyone else. if that is the way you want to live and die, so be it.

just leave me alone and get the heck out of the way, we have more meaningful things to take care of right now.

when the rapture happens, (and it is coming, soon) then there will be no more second guessing. we will all be able to see who is right and who is wrong.

I agree nam65-66
you are 100% correct on that.


tisk
runcible spoon

Matthew
Since most Americans in American history defined marriage as between one man and one woman, does that mean most Americans in American history are hateful?

RE: IF we forget the past...
Hey TX,

I agree 100% with what your saying. The bottom line is, why should anyone care? This is not something that should be or will be forced on anyone else.

And when the rapture comes, if I'm still here... then, I give you all permission to point and laugh. But until then, it's no one elses business.

clean and unclean meats
Hi Dennis.

I like your radio show and your stand on many issues of these trying times.

I do believe it is an error to say the "you" regarding the clean and un clean meats apply only to Jews.
God set the Israelites up to be an example to the world. The word jew and Israelite are not the same. the jews comprised Judah and one other tribe that went with them. The Ten tribes were the Isrealites. There was the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jews). All of these would be instructed not to eat the unclean.
There is another lesser proof perhaps that all of mankind should not eat unclean meats. There were 7 pairs of clean animals on the ark and only two pairs of unclean. This should not go without comment.

thanks for all you do Dennis.

Rich

to: dbz77
To answer your question, Just becasue they did it throughout history does not mean they heateful, it meant they didn't know better.

Were the people who lived before electricity stupid for being in the dark?

Were the people who pooped in buckets in the corner stupid for not having indoor plumming?

No, but they eventually learned a better way, didn't they?

Mike
Haven't you ever heard the saying that it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Before you start calling people idiots who disagree with you, you really should know what you are talking about. Otherwise you just prove the saying quoted above.

In talking about the grade schoolers who attended their lesbian teachers wedding, you claimed "It was not a school function as the Prop-Hate people like to make you think."

Actually, it WAS a school function. They organized and approved the trip. A spokesman for the school called it a "teachable moment". It was done during the school day as part of the childrens regular class time. Like all field trips, they had to get permission slips from each parent for the children to participate. That would not have been necessary if the wedding had taken place on the school grounds.

BTW, the only people who use the term Prop Hate are those intolerant, hateful people who opposed Prop 8. Have a nice day. Unlike you, I don't hate people who disagree with me.

Fighting Stupid With Funny
12 Reasons Why Gay Marriage Will Ruin Society:
1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control are not natural.
2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. That is why infertile couples and old people cannot get legally married.
3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.
4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears's 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.
5. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and it hasn't changed at all: women are property, Blacks can't marry Whites, and divorce is illegal.
6. Gay marriage should be decided by the people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of minorities.
7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are always imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.
8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people makes you tall.
9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage license.
10. Children can never succeed without both male and female role models at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.
11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. We could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to cars or longer lifespans.
12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages will for gays & lesbians.

Kosher Foods in the Bible
You can come up with all sorts of religions reasons for the list of foods the Jews weren't supposed to eat but one thing stands out.

All the foods listed were dangerous to eat since the people then did NOT know the reasons they were unsafe and as such didn't know the solutions to the problems.

Pork contains parasites that are dangerous unless well-cooked. This is particularly true of the pork of that day. Roasting a hog over an open fire does not cook