Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, September 04, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Do People Do Evil?
by Dennis Prager
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Decent people have sought to identify the roots of evil since the first indecent person inflicted cruelty on an innocent person. And people have come up with one or more of nine explanations, most of which are indeed valid.

1. The Devil (or whatever name the devil goes by in any given culture). I do not believe in a devil, but when one observes the seemingly inexplicable cruelty engaged in by some people, it is understandable that people have attributed it to some evil being that has taken over that person.

2. Genes. The contemporary term for devil is "genes." Just as with the devil, when we observe a person engaging in evil behavior for which we have no rational explanation, we speak of it as coming from the person's genes.

3. Parents. After genes, parents have become another popular explanation for much evil. "How was he raised?" we wonder when we read about evildoers, especially those who deliberately hurt children. There is no question that parental upbringing has both good and ill effects on children. But there are too many bad people raised in homes that did not abuse them, and too many good people who were raised in awful homes to allow us to make parents the primary explanation for evil.

4. Religion. Religion is a popular culprit these days. And it is undeniable that religion can be a source of evil -- it certainly is in the case of the true believing Islamic terrorist. And it was in the wars over theology that racked Europe for centuries. But two facts mitigate against regarding religion as the primary explanation for evil. One is that religion itself was often developed precisely in order to reduce human evil. Whatever evil individual Christians may have ever engaged in, it is hard to find advocacy of evil within Christian Scriptures. The other is that secular ideologies and regimes -- Nazism and Communism, for example -- have murdered and tortured far more people than any religion has.

5. Money. Money and greed are so widely regarded as causes of evil that the phrase "Money is the root of all evil" has become a cliche. And there is no doubt that people seeking what money can buy -- luxury, status, women and excitement, to name but a few things -- have engaged in much evil. But flawed human nature and a lack of self-control, not money per se, are the causes of evil in these instances.

6. Power. Like money, many who seek power will do anything, no matter how evil, to attain power. However, it is a relatively small number of people that seeks such power and commits evil in its pursuit.

7. Pursuit of the good. The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions. One should never underestimate the amount of evil caused by people thinking they were doing good. Far more evil has been perpetrated by idealistic people than by cynical criminals.

8. Sadism. There are people who simply enjoy seeing others in pain and inflicting it on them. But sadism accounts for few, if any, large-scale evils. It accounts for many individual acts of cruelty.

9. Boredom. Boredom is widely underrated as a source of evil. Yet, it most certainly is. Lack of purpose, not a lack of things to do, is the source of nearly all boredom. People need meaning in their lives. And if they don't, they will pursue visceral excitement instead of meaning or seek meaning in evil causes.

I believe there is a tenth explanation that is greater than all the others and is particularly widespread today.

10. Victimhood. A lifelong study of good and evil has led to me conclude that the greatest single cause of evil is people perceiving of themselves or their group as victims. Nazism arose from Germans' sense of victimhood -- as a result of the Versailles Treaty, of the "stab in the back" that led to Germany's loss in World War I and of a world Jewish conspiracy. Communism was predicated on workers regarding themselves as victims of the bourgeoisie. Much of Islamic evil today emanates from a belief that the Muslim world has been victimized by Christians and Jews. Many prisoners, including those imprisoned for horrible crimes, regard themselves as victims of society or of their upbringing. The list of those attributing their evil acts to their being victims is as long as the list of evildoers.

This is also true in the micro realm. Family members whose primary identity is that of victim usually feel entirely free to hurt others in the family. That is why psychotherapists who regularly reinforce the victim status of their patients do the patient and society great harm.

If my belief is even partially correct, the preoccupation of much of America with telling whole groups that they are victims -- of racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and classism, among other American sins -- can only increase cruelty and evil in America.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Dennis Prager's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
lets see...

Some religious conservatives and some taxpayers feel victimized by the Liberal-Progressives.

What groups do the Liberal-Progressives place in the "Victimhood" status?

Why do people do evil?
I think that all of us have it in us to do varying degrees of bad.

We have to first define what we mean by evil. My idea is that there is a continium from perfectly Godly on one end, to pure evil on the other end. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle. Someone may help a little old lady across the street, and then go home and cheat on their taxes.

There are 2 components to the concept:
(1) The degree of evil we are tempted to do
(2) The degree to which we are able to resist the impulses

One person may only feel tempted to steal envelopes from work or shoplift fruit, and always gives in to the impulses.

Another person may have darker impulses: desiring to commit assault, murder, or other vile things, but never acts on it.

Which person is worse? Which is better?

The second person has only to give in once to his evil temptations, and he is much worse than the envelop stealer, who gives in his whole life.

Like they use to say:
idle hands are the devil's workshop.

I would like to add a category:
IDIOTIC EVIL
where some people are just to stupid to either know any better, or can't see the consequences.

What is evil
I think it would be profitable to have a precise definition of evil before trying to explain it.
My own idea is that there are three types of negative things. Hard things, bad things and evil things. I hope that hard things is self explanatory. Bad things are things that a person does not deserve, and evil things are things inlflected by someone for no other reason than his own selfish desires or whims. If that is what evil is then it would seem that evil comes from the inability to see oneself as part of the whole of humankind and would support Prager's thesis

Why do people do evil
Well to answer the question posed by Carlos. Liberal-Progressives have victimized the entire black community of America. We have moved from wanting equal access and fair treament. To expecting equal results and special treatment. Gays one of the wealthiest and educated minority groups in the country, are now claiming victim status. Why because the majority of the 97% in the country who is not gay are against changing the one social institution "Marriage" which has helped in stabalizing the one natural relationship that's responsible for bringing all humans into existence, even gays (the heterosexual man women relationship) I could go one forever pointing out what the current and ever growing list of victim mind sets. Next on their list are foreign nationals from Mexico. There you go Carlos three examples. Now which group was it again that's encouraged to claim victim status by a Conservative though process?

That's easy Carlos
Carlos writes:
What groups do the Liberal-Progressives place in the "Victimhood" status?


ANY person, or group of people, that is stupid enough to listen to, and believe, what liberals-progressives tell them becomes one of their victims.
And will never be allowed to escape their grasp.

The mechanics of evil
To measure evil, one must look at the knowledge, intent and purpose of the evildoer as well as the outcome the evil act produces for all persons affected by the evil act. Measuring evil this way incorporates three time frames - past, present and future.

To define evil and understand its nature, one must look at the issues of cost and shifting costs from one person to another in three time frames.

For example, smoking crack makes John feel good now, but it also makes him entirely unproductive now such that he can't meet his own needs without resorting to crime, welfare or charity. Sum this up, and you see that John gets a benefit now in exchange for shifting the severe costs of that benefit to himself and others in the future. Multiply this by years and you see that John's pursuit of his good amounts to net evil for himself and others.

Looking now at Mr. Prager's list, one sees that victimhood provides an advance justification for cost-shifting, that is, because I suffered evil, I'm due some benefits from society that would shift the cost of the evil done to me to society to award me some benefits. Only then will justice be restored and the evil that I suffered negated, never mind that today's society had nothing to do with my suffering.

One Criticism
Personally, when I look around this world, I can not conceive of the possibility that there is no satanic power influencing it. When you look at Europe with its rampant anti-Americanism, when you look at Hollywood and the morally bankrupt left-wing cesspool it has become, when you look at the media and the effects they are having on the world, it seems apparent to me that there is some sort of power manipulating things, putting people into power that will slowly but surely undermine the Judeo-Christian underpinnings of our society. That's my only quarrel with Dennis' column.

Society as evil's slush fund
One fatal flaw in socialist (AKA liberal, progressive) thinking is that it treats society as a slush fund for financing the costs of all individual evildoing.

Let's consider the case of John the crack-smoker again. Any socialist worth her salt will argue that due to the overwhelming socio-economic factors predetermining John's evil acts, John is not to be held personally accountable for the evil he does. Instead, John is a victim of society, and for that reason society must not only cheerfully bear the costs of John's evildoing but also pay for reforming John. Only if society does these things can it be called good; otherwise, it will remain the source of all evil.

Notice the socialist themes: (1) Society predetermines the acts of individuals, meaning there is no such thing as individual free will, and (2) society is thus an organic machine with no self-consciousness, direction or free will, which is why society must be engineered and managed by scientists who know how its works and coercive state force, that is, law and its enforcement. Only a society that is engineered and managed in this way can be good.

Ah, but the problem, Dennis.....
.....is that some people ARE actually victims, and to deny this lets the victimizers off the hook. Applying this to family life (your example), what about the daughter who is subjected to sexual abuse as a child? Does she have no right to expect justice for her victimhood? Indeed, one could argue (macro) that the creation of the State of Israel (a very good thing) was a response to Jewish victimhood at the hands of the Nazis. The very holocaust memorials you support also serve to emphasize Jewish victimhood.

I'm not denying that in some ways you're onto something. Just that, in your rather typical recent style, you have worked backwards from a dead body to arrive at a simplistic conclusion consistent with your now rather doctrinaire conservative ideology. I daresay the Prager I so respected a decade or so ago would not have engaged in such facile thinking.

Typical supremacist bigot
So is Prager suggesting that Jews were more evil than nazis because they were "victims" and had "victim mentality". Of course to fascist like Prager any idea that there really is oppression in this world is an anathema and that trying to make that right is "evil".

And this vicious bigot is in board of Holocaust museum? What a joke.

Supremacist and totalitarian ideologies (like those of Prager) have caused most of evil in bthe world.

Whenever
Nazi's are mentioned as atheists I feel that this has to be posted by someone:
http://nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm
http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Also, "it is hard to find advocacy of evil within Christian Scriptures"???
Did Mr. Prager actually try to read some scripture:
----
Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:25-26)

Elaboration posted by someone at a forum:
Christian apologists bring a whole bucket of whitewash to the New Testament. For example, regarding this particular verse, they'll say that "hate father and mother" really means "love God a whole lot more than father and mother" — which is total bollocks. The Greek word miseo means "hate", and is clearly used to mean "hate" elsewhere in the Bible (e.g., Amos 5:15, "Hate evil and love good"). If you say that Jesus couldn't really mean "hate" in Luke 14:26 because he clearly said all that other stuff about "love", then we could say with equal reason that Jesus couldn't really mean "love" in other places because it's obvious he meant "hate" in Luke.
----

And
of course the existence of racism or homophobia is irrelevant to him, after all he supports both. Prager is the one who declared how hating islam and muslims is just rational thinking and how mexicans are taking over America, how muslims shouldn't be free to practice their religion (remember Ellison) but should be forced to take oaths on Bible) and his constant demeaning of gays...

Notice how he didn't mention how Jews believe that antisemitism exist are just evil. only epople who believe in racism or homophobia or xenophobia. All of which this bigot has excelled in.

One more column in the series where Prageer makes excuses for hatred. I hope that he has the audacity to go and say to victims of consentration camps how their "evil" caused their fate.


And if
Prager wants some examples of Christian hatred he doesn't have to go further than Townhall and read to comments to columns about Larry Craig. the amount of anti-gay bile and viciousness Christians vomit in those threads in staggering.

But of course that is "only rational" to zealot like Prager.

Evil in these posts
I noticed one poster here calls Prager a "fascist". If you (like the name-caller) believe good people are evil, you run the risk of becoming evil yourself.
Also, some respondents here say that there are real victims. That is true, but its interesting that the real victims usually have not stooped to evil. The Armenians did not revenge themselves on the Turkish civilians for the Armenian Genocide, the Jews did not revenge themselves on German civilians.
On the other hand, I don't think "victimhood" can be the whole story.

Evil
An excellent article...

Bias
Seems to me there is a lot of "vomit"om both sides. Neither side seems capable of intelligent discussion without name calling and hate speech. Isn't it possible to discuss an issue intelligently and give the other side credit for their beliefs without accusing them of an evil agenda.

A couple of notes
RCB;

I've always been fascinated by the dichotomy you mention. "Progressives" believe that true free will does not exist, and that all actions in society are driven by "irresistible tides of social pressure". BUT, they also believe that the "best and brightest among us" (i.e., themselves) must "guide" society.

But if free will does not exist, what qualifies them to decide for everyone else? Unless of course they believe that they, and ONLY they, have true free will. Which is an elitist position and makes nonsense of their basic argument.


Hm;

I've become rather tired of the "Nazis=Christians" equivalence. While it is true that the Nazis invoked Christianity to appeal to the German people as a whole (notably the image of the Knights of the Holy Vehm vs. the Slavs), they didn't believe in it themselves. The basic belief system of Nazism was Scandinavian Odinism. This is made quite clear by their use of runes, their belief in the ideal of "pre-Christian Germanism", and their practices of replacing Christian festivals with pagan ones. Hitler himself called Christianity a "Jewish fraud". So no matter what they put on a belt-buckle, the Nazis definitely were not Christians.

Lip-service is not the same thing as actual belief.

cheers

eon

Because they can
I think a lot of evil takes place simply because the perps know they can get away with it. Be it throwing rocks through windows, shooting paintballs at cars (or keying them or doing other damage to them), knocking books out of the hands of people on the subway, deliberately blocking doorways, or the worse crimes such as swarming -- heck, here in Kanukistan, even producing three one-ton truck bombs and leaving messages on tape of their intention to behead the Prime Minister and shoot up food courts -- get a pat on the head, instant bail, and no punishment. Two wealthy Indian teenagers street racing their parents BMWs murdered an innocent taxi driver. Punishment: HOUSE ARREST. Pack of gang members arrested (85 total) in one neighbourhood; punishment: AWARDED $2,000 EACH FOR THEIR INCONVENIENCE AND FREED!

People are inclined to evil by nature. It takes a lot of effort to keep them and ourselves from acting on impulses that can quickly turn into Road Rage (orr Office Rage). When you take away all fear of punishment for those times when they do not resist, what else can you expect but increasing degrees of evil?

Liberals Refuse to Recognize Evil
The fascinating thing about evil today is that liberals refuse to recognize evil. Their heads are so cluttered with psychoanalytic rubbish that they always come up with a denial of reality. I've actually heard liberals dismiss the jihadists by insisting that Islam is the "religion of peace" and that the West has mistreated Muslims for decades so it's understandable the Muslims would go out and kill men, women, and children. To me, this situation represents the major quandary of our time: How do you fight and overcome evil when a significant portion of our population refuses to recognize evil?

Prager left out something
He doesn't explain why people do evil out of the belief that what is evil is actually good. Marx is one extreme example; he believed the abolishing private property and private commerce was justice. The reason we have ideological debates is because we can't agree on what's evil. Is euthanasia merciful? Is it moral to force the economically successful to subsidize the economically unsuccessful? (It certainly provides a disincentive for learning how to succeed.) Does appeasing people who want your country to cease to exist encourage the expansion of moral goods such as world peace? Is world peace a moral good if it means tolerating the existence of Christians and Jews?

Dennis
I would like to correct you on one point. Your biblical quote was a common mistake. Jesus did not say “Money is the root of all evil.” He did say, “The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.” There is a big difference.

Since money ultimately leads to power, and in fact the two are inextricably intertwined, it stands to reason that the love of power goes hand-in-hand with what Jesus said.

The article on the whole was good, and this is certainly a topic that we should give more thought to. Of course, Christians have a unique perspective on this. We believe that people do evil because they have a “sin nature” which they have inherited from Adam. As a Sunday school teacher of mine use to say, we aren’t sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. All of us. It is our separation from God which makes us vulnerable to evil; even when we want to do good. This is why Christians believe that a rebirth is necessary.

A lot of theology involved here which many will disagree with, but interesting comments all around.

Green monster

In gloomier moments, I've often said, "The Green Monster rules the world" -- meaning the fires of envy, coveting what other people have, tearing down people who seem better off and so on. It's something like the phenomena Mr. Prager describes as "victimhood." If only these (dot, dot, dot) bums, leeches, dirty rats hadn't taken what is rightfully mine, I'd be sitting pretty.

Mountain Rose makes a good point that there are good & evil in all of us. Very few are at their Sunday School best every minute of every day.

We forget sometimes that we are animals who lived in small isolated bands not too long ago in our social and political consciousness. We scrambled for a short, harsh existence, without the luxury of pondering deep moral questions or thinking long term about much of anything. We competed directly with other wild animals and didn't always have the upper hand. We might be hard-wired to shoot first and ask questions later as a preference for mere survival. Who among us doesn't tend to pump out adrenaline in a tight spot, maybe a little more readily than is good for us?

He left this out, too
Why do people do good? Humans are motivated primarily out of self-interest. Some good is irrelevant to this goal, and some (like handing the stranger the twenty he accidentally dropped) actually gets in the way.

Why do people do evil?
A small correction to an otherwise good column.

It's not "Money is the root of all evil."

It's really, "The love of money is the root of all evil."

And there is no truer root of most evil than the desire to acquire resources at the expense of one's fellow man.

Carlos
"What groups do the Liberal-Progressives place in the 'Victimhood' status?"

Answer: Those who are not white males.

Ahhhh I love our resident Leftists!
Van is here, spewing his usual brand of vile and ridiculous Leftist hyperbole. Good to see you Van! Fortunately your posts are so blatantly silly that there's really no need to "rebut" anything. Just love seeing you stew in your own hatred; it's such a joy on a sunny morning!

Then there's Black Dog, posting the following:

"It's amazing that this dime-store philosopher would mention communisim - in Czarist Russia the people WERE starving"

LMAO!!! I just *love* it when Leftists defend Soviet Communism by misdirection!

Ummmm, Black Dog, you do know that starvation under the Soviets not only killed FAR MORE than Czar-era starvation, but that the former was enacted as FORMAL GOVERNMENT POLICY. You do sense the moral distinction there, right?

"George Bush's whole presidency is predicated on the fear of the right wing towards the rest of the world..."

Wonderful. I could never, in my most inventive flights of creative vim, write such hyperbole. This is marvelous!

So we are afraid of not just Islam, but also France, Iceland, Japan, and the Australian aborigines?

" - the Muslims in particular - and if we have to kill every Muslim child until we get a good night's sleep - so be it..."

Right, right... because the mission in Iraq is ALL ABOUT killing children.

The best part is that Black Dog completely ignores any logical refutation of the idea that Radical Islam poses any kind of threat. So like a Leftist; pose outrageous claims without a shred of evidence.

Tell me, O Negro Pero Stupido, what is your response to the population data regarding the countries of Western Europe, and the population projections for the next twenty years or so?

Why people do evil
Why do people do evil?

Asking why two starving nations would go to war against each other, CBS News commentator Hughes Rudd observed, "Because people are just no damned good."

Oops! I missed another Leftist wackjob!
sentido writes:

"Actions like that make you understand why Hitler prescribed Zyklon-B. Just as the Zionist Jews made war for their purposes, the Nazi hordes made war for their purposes.

Is it "evil?" I won't make that call."

And there you have it! Van, I'm sorry, but I will have to take that trophy away from you, the clear winner in the Left-Wing Hate Grand Prix is *clearly* sentido, who now thinks Hitler was onto something!

It's a fine day when the Leftists make it *this easy*...

Tempter, accuser, denyer
__#1 Devil, the energy of which Mr. Pager does not believe, has he also gives it an unseen material form. He says, "it is understandable that people have attributed it to some evil being..." Falling into the trap that has helped to blind the human race for centuries. This evil has been portrayed, and explained, in stories has a serpent, horned beast, a human form with red skin,horns sticking out the top of its head, holding a pitchfork, and on, and on. Because life is of the physical their stories to explain this evil, has always been, in a vocabulary, of physical understanding. Every society, since the beginning of time, since "the fall of man", have explained, and taught of this evil. Just as the abilities of evil have shrouded the teachings, with a cloak to cover the truths that would end its abilities. Even the word EVIL, itself, has lost its defining force. Evils source of power lies in each, and everyone of us, just as we all deny it. Every decision humans make, in their lives, is made with a choice. This choice is drawn from good, or evil. There is not a serpent in a tree, or a devil with a pitchfork poking your behind. You make the choice to give evil its desired result, for your personal desires.

sentido
"I'm not saying that the Nazi genocide was any more or less evil than the one perpetrated by the Jews"

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself!

Which is what makes you the big, huggable, lovabel, aw-shucks-wotta-guy winner of the Leftist Hate Grand Prix!

As well as first Runner-Up in the Leftist Lies 500! With an Honorable Mention in the Leftist Moral Equivalency Sweepstakes!

Really, you're just the whole package!

BUSH IS NUMBER ONE IN EVIL


George Bush is the first American President expressing Christian certitude in his Presidential decisions. God even speaks to Bush, and as the President told the press, he was guided by “a higher authority,” “another Father” than Bush41 on going to war with Iraq. If true, presumably God would have also told him how to win this Iraq war without all the blunders, suffering and death.

“Good and evil” is a concept common in religion, morality, ethics and philosophy. Obviously the whole world needs more good and less evil. But is there a practical definition that everyone can agree on and that lends itself to objective measurement. How about: GOOD is something that makes the many human lives better and no or few lives worse, while EVIL is something that makes many lives worse, and no or few lives better.

Measuring George Bush’s actions by this definition with objective facts, our compassionate conservative, Christian President does mostly EVIL: from the Iraq disaster to Katrina mismanagement/incompetence to the politics of division and hate to “no child left behind” (children in extreme poverty up 20% since Bush took office) to the $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich. Particulars on this last item: SUPPLY-SIDE (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated.

JohnCitizen
More Leftist hyperbole:

"George Bush is the first American President expressing Christian certitude in his Presidential decisions."

... if you conveniently ignore all the others, that is. Or were you unaware that Presidents Carter, Wilson, Roosevelt, and pretty near every president of the 18th and 19th centuries did so as well?

I love Leftists who are entirely ignorant of history. What a cornucopia of idiocy y'all are providing this morning! And I didn't get you anything...

I hear the victims
Why are you spewing vile putrid etc., etc., stuff about "gays", Well Johnny it might be because they are degenerates and are seeking to corrupt children with a concept that it's not degeneracy but rather a "lifestyle"!

What is untrue about the invasion of illegal aliens into our country particularly from Mexico? And what's more they come to our country (all illegals) and tout how wonderful things are in their country. Why not stay in your country? And take some of the home grown victims from America with you.

The victims have arrived and they are thriving and doing well right here on this site.

Why do people do evil?
sentido writes: Ask the Palestinians whose land the Zionists stole.

Well, you should brush up on your history abit. The land that the Brits gave Israel wasn't the Palestineans to begin with and the all land that Israel claimed after 1948 were won in wars that Israel didn't start.

There wasn't any theft involved.

Prager's column
I think his column, and the subsequent postings, prove my belief that, before something becomes either political or economic, it is almost always spiritual in origin. Mr. Prager makes a couple of mistakes, though. He,like millions of others, does not have an accurate understanding of the Word of God. One, there is a devil. Worse, there are various devil spirits. These are the "fallen angels".They can, and do, possess people, or at least influence them.Even worse, there are those humans who are born of the seed of the devil. It's not necessarily that they bow down to some statue of the devil, although some do. Usually, they worship something more indirect. That's why it is written:"the LOVE of money is the root of all evil". Why is this? Because the love of money- not money itself- is idolatry.They have other idols as well: themselves, power, lust,etc. One need not look too far to observe their influence in such places as Hollywood, the halls of government, the MSM, the legal profession, a lot of Wall Street,and the leadership of many of the leftist special interest groups.Dennis, in the Old Testament, these folks were called "the sons of Belial(I Samuel25:17). In the New Testament, they're referred to as " the child(ren) of the devil...enemies of all righteousness"(Acts13:10).One of their more notable aspects is that they will always pervert or distort the truth. So it is no surprise we have the mess we have today.

All Evil VS All Kinds of Evil
M Sederoff writes: Tuesday, September, 04, 2007 8:10 AM
Dennis
I would like to correct you on one point. Your biblical quote was a common mistake. Jesus did not say “Money is the root of all evil.” He did say, “The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.” There is a big difference.
***************************************

M Sederoff- I would like to point out that the real translation is "The love of money is at the root of ALL KINDS OF EVIL."

There are plenty of evils that do not involve money, or the love of money.

But it is interesting that the Left, who distain commercialism, seem obsessed with the distribution of money, and create all kinds of evil in persuit of their financial vision for the world.

Hm uses literalism
to attack Christianity. My bet is that Hm stands in line to criticize Christian literalists. The worst part of it is that Hm uses isolationist literalism citing Luke 14:26 as some evidence that Chritian exegesis is "whitewash." The principle in Luke 14:26 relates to the cost of "discipleship." Since most Jews around 30 AD can be presumed to "honor their mother and father" the cost of discipleship is indeed high in an allegorical sense. Only a literalist critic of Christianity would make the argument that Luke 14:26 is a commandment to "hate one's mother or father."

first of all
it is the "love" of money that is the root of all evil. Everyone always cuts that cliche short. Secondly, one of the best tricks of the devil is to get someone to believe that he doesn't exist....

There is a devil
John Citizen, you are just silly.

Expounder comes the closest to a rational explanation of evil. It is a force, and it has a name, satan, and an express purpose, to destroy humanity. Jesus came into the world to destroy the works of the devil(an ongoing process that will be finished when He returns).We an either work with Him or with the devi. And we choose whom we will serve. We are given the option of choosing life and blessing or death and cursing.
Maybe you dont believe in the devil but he sure believes in you.

Fergus
Personally I couln't care less about your opinion. or anyone of the resident bigoits here. But calling my posts "blatantly silly" after a weekend of hundreds of posts from apologists of ant-gay violence in this website would make someone who actually cares what Christians do bit worried. But we don't have to worry about that in your case do we.

And based on Prager's logic, yhe people who actually perished because of different totlaitarian belief systems througha ctiosn of men who had found the "absolute truth" were just having a victim mentality and evil and thus their demise was their own fault.

I wonder if Prager believe sthat christians who are hunted down by other regimes are also just showing unduly victim mentality and are in service of evil? Or does his logic only apply to people HE loves to persecute (gays, mexicans, muslims)

sentido
If you wish to know why you didn't also come in First in the Leftist Moral Equivalency Sweepstakes, I suggest you read Pero Negro Stupido's last response to me. I'm sorry, but in moral equivalency, you are a piker compared to him. Though you do show potential...

Black Dog, I am amused by your lack of distinction between "fear" and "contempt" in re: France, but no less amused by your standard-issue "Soviet Russia wasn't *real* communism" deflection.

Finally, I always get a warm feeling in my tummy when Leftists call me "Fergie" or "Ferg"; it is always a clear signal that they have lost the argument, whether or not they know it. Cheers!


The root of all evil.
To respond to fsudenny,

the proper translation really isn't "hate", but "loves more". If one loves his relations more than they love Christ, than they lose their salvation.

2cents, and others
"Mr. Prager makes a couple of mistakes, though. He,like millions of others, does not have an accurate understanding of the Word of God. "

There seems to be a common misconception at work here: namely, that Mr. Prager shares Christian religious beliefs. He does not; nor does he share your conviction that the Christian Bible is the "Word of God." To him, the "Word of God" is found in the Torah, in which the devil is a marginal presence at best, more of a literary metaphor than anything else.

On this I will (surprisingly) agree with many of the Leftists: it is an arrogant presumption for you to chide Mr. Prager for the accuracy of his "understanding of the Word of God."

Van, just out of curiosity
Other than the fact that I have disagreed with you, and identified you as a hater, what evidence, exactly, do you have in support of your assertion that I am a "bigot"?

Please be specific; I know that you have trouble with rational thinking, but this is an occasion in which it would be properly brought to bear.

Does Intent Count?
Are those whose who try to do good but in the long term do bad evil?
Is doing evil a conscious choice?

Jonty30
Point well taken.

A 3 legged dog
__Limping along yapping for a bone. Chew on this, in 2006 there were 13740 drunk driving deaths on American highways. Not a B-52, or box cutter involved in any of those deaths. Only individuals making the choice to fulfill individual passion, and end the lives of others. I believe it is safe to say, this was an act of individuals chosing to do evil! Actions of drunks, liberally drinking, and driving, have killed millions in the past 50 years. I wonder if right wing policy killed all these people.

Pero Negro
"read Marx - if you can - point out the passages that sound like Stalinism"

I have read Marx, a couple times. Barely stayed awake the last time. And there seems to be a pretty consonant theme of State control underpinning both. The distinction would be the usual one underlying Marx and the application of Marx: the complete failure of the author to take into account actual human nature while advocating such a complete loss of individual liberty. But that's hardly surprising, since Marxist theory is so half-baked anyway; anyone who can take seriously Marx's "Labor Theory of Value" already has something wrong with them.

"...if you can...Tell me fergie - which is REAL Chrsitianity - The Roman Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Mormans or the Christian Scientists - because they all claim Christ as their leader"

Nope, not a game I get into. I don't hold any one Christian church to be "more Christian" than any other, though I would say that Mormons (not "Mormans"; women can be Latter-Day Saints too, dincha know?) and Christian Scientists run into trouble in that they are both a) reliant on extra-Biblical support for much of the doctrine that renders them distinct from mainline Christianity, and b) as much manifestations of 19th century Utopianism as re-interpretation of Biblical text.

"Get the point about Stalin and communism?"

Yep: you have very little sense of context or history; that's the point I get.

" 'Finally, I always get a warm feeling in my tummy when Leftists call me "Fergie" or "Ferg"; it is always a clear signal that they have lost the argument, whether or not they know it."

Try a shorter screen name... you might see different results."

*nods* Yes, I can see where typing all six letters of "Fergus" would cause you some intellectual exhaustion. You make a good point.

Why do people do evil?
Un Momento writes: Does Intent Count?
Are those whose who try to do good but in the long term do bad evil?
Is doing evil a conscious choice?

Doing evil, even unintentionally, is a conscious choice.



Christianity
I guess it depends upon how Christianity, or rather, organized religion in general is interpretted.

The Inquisitions were supposed to be done in the name of God, but few can argue that that was an acutley evil time in history.

Islam is generally regarded as a peaceful religion. Indeed during the holy crusades muslims were generally tolerant of other religions whereas the christian crusader regularly slaughtered non-christians. Now, islam is the fuel that feeds terrorists and can be equated with evil.

No, true evil is within the individual and that individual's capacity for doing terrible things without conscience and uses a justification for his/her actions. "God's Will" for example is a very arrogant thing to claim to know.

Thomas Paine, while in general was a complete failure in most of his ventures, wrote about this in Age of Reason. Basically anyone that claims to kow what God's Will is should not be trusted on any level, because they will eventually use this as a justification for evil.

WHY PEOPLE DO EVIL
I haven't seen one mention of an immutable standard from which to DECIDE if evil exists! Without a standard there IS no evil. Everything and ANYTHING goes... "It's all good"... is today's mantra. So then what standard do we use to decide? Yours? Dennis Prager's? An angry homosexual? A peace loving soccer mom? Here's something to consider... If you are intellectually honest you will concede the entire standard for good (and evil) comes from the most widely read book in history... Uh oh! Yes... It's the Bible! Oh my!

johnrojo
No one is questioning the Bible's standard for good and evil. It is how the Bible is interpretted that is the problem.

The inquisitors used the Bible to torture and murder a lot of people. The Crusades did the same.

The Q'uran likewise.

So in essence, it depends on who's reading the Bible, and which interpretation you subscribe to.

In this regard I have to agree with The Black But. It's the individual, not the book...

Also
The "it's all good" mantra is a problem. We in this country have fostered a society that absolves people of personal responsibility.

Whether it's murder or making a bad real estate decision, people are less and less being held accountable.

So we tolerate more and more bad behavior. Whether or not that can be translated into "evil" is debatable, but it can be argued that there is right and wrong.

Why do people do evil?
Because they are evil.

DEFINE EVIL

.....Prager ...

.....Is a suicide bombing an act of terror (evil) or a virtue which guarantees the bomber entrance to a heavenly paradise? ...

.....I guess that would depend on whether you are the bomber or the bombee ...one man's wine is another man's poison ...or to be more specific ...one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter ...

.....You are being too simplistic Prager ...to define "evil" we would have to have a standard of absolute truth that everyone agreed to ...since obviously we do not ...then evil become an opinion or a point of view ...

.....Did you read "Lord of the Flies" ?...did those boys become evil or did they just revert to their natural instincts for survival? ...

.....you disappoint me Prager .....COLOSSUS

Communism
Name one country where communism hasn't had a major negative effect and the people are literally dying to leave.

Van get a grip
You clearly listen to a different Dennis Prager than I do. When did he claim it was totally fine to hate Muslims?

Van your problem is that whenever someone says something you dont agree with, the demonization begins. Prager is naturally a hate filled totalitarian bigot...because his opinions are not identical to yours. Hey here is an idea: rather than attacking those you dont agree with, why not try and defeat their arguments? And I mean THEIR arguments,not those you attribute to them, which they never made.

Root of evil
Years ago, Rev. Ike said, "The LACK of money is the root of all evil."

Why I chose my name
Here's why I chose my name:

Evil Leftists are power-hungry totalitarians who attempt to disguise their predatory nature with sweet words of "liberty, equality, fraternity."

Evil Leftists are anti-Semitic. See examples from Evil Leftist posts on this thread.

Evil Leftists hate America--the world's most potent force for good--and wish to destroy it.

Evil Leftists are allied with Evil Islamofascists against America.

Why are Evil Leftists Evil? They desire what they can't have. A nasty combination of envy, jealousy, and all power over their fellow human beings. And so, they have succumbed to the Dark Side of the Force.

Pero has read Marx
And apparently bought into the nonsense, even though it has been disproven time and time again.

Striving to do better personally is completely out of phase with Marxism, where the needs of the collective are placed above the needs of the individual. Lets forget for a moment that this is completely counterintuitive to the human condition. The fact is, it is based on a false premise, that working to better one's self, automatically harms society. History has proven that this can be correct, but more often than not, just the opposite is true. If I become successful economically, more than likely others will benefit from my success. Anyone who has ever studied the rise of Microsoft as a global economic force knows this to be true. I assure you, no software engineer from that company ever waited in a seven hour line for a roll of toilet paper.

One Possible Conclusion
Wow, Prager finally has resolved an issue which has perplexed mankind for millenia. I am so glad he took a few minutes to write it down and illuminate the answer for teh rest of us. I for one am not the slightest bit troubled by the fact that his tortured logic and a-historical mind reached a conclusion that just happens to allow him to blame everything bad in the world on liberals.


One cause of evil he left off his list is the need to portray those with whom you disagree as evil and yourself as righteous.

sfasu7932
"Islamic tolerance existed only so long as as long as the followers of other religions of the Book accepted second-class status and paid the tax required by the Q'uran."

I don't define that behavior as evil. However, Christian crusaders put many non-christians to the sword without even offering an alternative.

That being said, you missed my point. It's what people are willing to do with the written words and what actions they justify with these words that could be construed as "evil".

No one religion has a monopoly on "evil" behavior. Surely you can see that taxing someone and running them through with a sword are two different acts and one is more likely to be called "evil" than the other?

And no, I'm not calling you Shirley....

One Possible Conclusion
I am so glad Dennis Prager has answered this question: it really has perplexed humanity for millenia and it is good to know we can stop debating it. And I am glad Prager took a minute to jot down his conclusion for us, else we'd never know the problem had been solved.

I for one an not the least bit troubled that Prager reached a conclusion that will allow him to blame his political enemies for all the evil he sees.

Prapger did leave out one very important cause of evil: the drive to label your opponents as evil.

Jack
From Thomas Sowell's "Random Thoughts" column yesterday:

"One of the painful signs of years of dumbed-down education is how many people are unable to make a coherent argument. They can vent their emotions, question other people's motives, make bold assertions, repeat slogans-- anything except reason. "

How do you tell good and evil...
in nations?

Check out how people vote with their feet. One poster above is right. People have been literally dying to get out of Communist nations since 1917. A very clear indication of evil in Communism, if the rest of the horrifying evidence doesn't convince you.

People are literally dying to get INTO America right now.

America is listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as receiving BY FAR the most immigrants in the history of the world. At least 50 million over the past three centuries by the last count I read.

This is the clearest indication of good in nations I could ever imagine.

fergus..
From Thomas Sowell's "Random Thoughts" column yesterday:

"One of the painful signs of years of dumbed-down education is how many people are unable to make a coherent argument. They can vent their emotions, question other people's motives, make bold assertions, repeat slogans-- anything except reason. "

Discribes pero dumb butt, van, and other Libdolts to a "T"

Why do people do evil?
Hemi_Cuda writes:
Islam is/ generally regarded as a peaceful religion. Indeed during the holy crusades muslims were generally tolerant of other religions whereas the christian crusader regularly slaughtered non-christians. Now, islam is the fuel that feeds terrorists and can be equated with evil.

If Islamic conquerors were so tolerant of other religions, why did the Franks under Charles Martel, the Spaniah for over nearly 800 years, and the Austrians and their allies in the 16 and 17 centuries fight so hard to avoid being overrun?
Islamic tolerance existed only so long as as long as the followers of other religions of the Book accepted second-class status and paid the tax required by the Q'uran.


John Paterson writes:

Let us not forget being forced to allow our children to be married off to Muslims or allow them to be enslaved.

LeftIsEvil
I agree with your post in regards to nations.

That doesn't mean our nation doesn't have it's share of "evil" people.

There's a long list of people that fit that moniker. Bundy Gacy, Dahmer just to name a few.

Also, those that use the Bible to justify their obviously insane behavior like those morons that stage protests at military funerals I would put in the "evil" category.

Get your numbers right, Dennis
Dennis said;"Nazism and Communism, for example -- have murdered and tortured far more people than any religion has. "

An estimated 250 million innocent souls have been tortured and murdered in the name of Mohammud, 70 million of the Hindu faith alone. While the Nazis were certainly inspired by Islamic atrocities and barbarities, they were pikers by comparison.

5 people to have dinner with.. dead list
Abraham Lincoln

George Washington

John Adams

Ben Franklin

Plato


Moral Minds
In his latest book, "Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong," Marc Hauser makes a startling claim that I take very seriously. Just as every human brain has an inbuilt "grammar" within it that guides the development of language skills in the child, so does every brain have a "moral grammar" that permits development of moral sentiments and judgments at extraordinarily early age.

I remember about 20 years ago going to a family restaurant with co-workers. The place was packed with workers and families with young children. At one point, a baby started crying. At another table, a toddler got upset and said "Baby kwiiiiiiy," very sadly.

Now why and how do you suppose a two-year-old (my estimate) was upset about a baby crying, a baby she had never seen before. Did she read her Ten Commandments and learn her sense of altruism thereby? Hardly. She wouldn't have even known what most of those words meant. Did her mommy tell her it was sad when babies cried? I doubt it. No, this event constituted one piece of evidence for me that we are born with a moral sense.

This makes sense. If our ancestors didnt' evolve such a sense along with their growing technological and social abilities, they wouldn't have been able to survive and thrive as they did.

Imagine the primeval hunter-gatherer group in Africa, the one we are all descended from, loaded with murderers, thieves, liars, rabble-rousers. How long would that group cohere? How many offspring would they have produced and nurtured to adulthood?

Morality lies at the core of our evolutionary drive to survive, thrive, and extend ourselves into the future with our children and grandchildren. Thus, with some exceptions, such as sociopaths, we all have moral minds, religion or not.

Look People
You're missing my point regarding Islam.

Anytime people use organized religion as a justification for terrible, senseless acts are "evil".

The religion doesn't make them evil, it's their interpretation of said religion that makes the individual evil.

The fact that a muslim will blow himself up in the name of Allah is evil. The fact that he is muslim does not make him evil.

The fact that a Christian will shoot an abortion doctor makes that individual evil. The fact that he is Christian does not.

Clear??

Sally Mclenane
I agree substantially with Sowell, but not entirely. People's inability to reason is a serious problem, but the cause is not the education system. The cause is the undermining of reason by those who seek power, money, and influence. This has always happened, but in my 40 years of studying rhetoric and argumentation, it has nnot been done as effectively as it has been done by teh right wing.


The right wing has, unfortunately, made the avoidance of reason a virtue. Reason,in this context, involves moving from evidence toward conclusion. The right wing has amassed a great deal of power by openly telling people that one need not follow that process: one need only identify a pre-existing truth and then stick by that principle no matter what evidence arises to the contrary.

It's irrational to do so, but the right wing has created an environment where such irrationality is a virtue. Prager's article is an example. Prapger did not conclude that victimology is hte cause of evil. He already felt that way. he just created a specious argument to "prove" it.




dinner guests live list, continued
President Bush

Pope Benedict

Noam Chomsky (as bait)

Ann Coulter

Dennis Prager


Hemi
I totally agree with your points, especially the one about those wackos who protest in front of Walter Reed and military funerals.

I remember reading about how one group of vets dealt with the Walter Reed protesters. They drove there in force on their Harleys and did some serious revving of engines to drown out the chants.

LOVED it. I guess that's just part of my moral sense. :)

Really now?
The right wing has, unfortunately, made the avoidance of reason a virtue. Reason,in this context, involves moving from evidence toward conclusion. The right wing has amassed a great deal of power by openly telling people that one need not follow that process: one need only identify a pre-existing truth and then stick by that principle no matter what evidence arises to the contrary.

Nothing in life is easy.. Truth is not always easy to follow. The right way is not always the easy way. the left's idea of leadership is driving a bunch of teenagers to pizza hut, rather than making them stay home and do their homework...

Van - you ignorant slattern!
Van writes: Tuesday, September, 04, 2007 4:23 AM
Typical supremacist bigot
So is Prager suggesting that Jews were more evil than nazis because they were "victims" and had "victim mentality". Of course to fascist like Prager any idea that there really is oppression in this world is an anathema and that trying to make that right is "evil".

--- Dennis' article said no such thing and you know it. There is a difference between being a victim and self-identifying as a victim. The Jews never want to be in a "holocaust" situation again. They are not playing the victim card.

And this vicious bigot is in board of Holocaust museum? What a joke.

Supremacist and totalitarian ideologies (like those of Prager) have caused most of evil in bthe world.

--- Nah, it is ignorant ideological sluts like you who have. You actually make Dennis' point. You have so thoroughly adopted the victim mantle that lying is not out of bounds for you. You have espoused horrible things happening to others, because as a victim, you believe they deserve no better. Why dont you crawl up out of the gutter and show the rest of us how it should be done, instead using your victimhood status as an excuse to screw others in society first?


sfasu7932
"I'd say that the Islamic conquerors of 650-1600 were no better and in some cases worse than the Crusaders."

Are we discussing the "degree" of evil?

At any rate, you are correct in the symantecs, but my original statement stands. No one religion corners the market on being twisted for evil purposes.

It is how the individual interprets the religious teachings and how he/she puts them into practice.

Do you equate the muslim doctor with OBL? Just because both are muslim are they both evil? One may pray 5 times per day and coach a pee-wee soccer team while the other prays 5 times per day and straps bombs to neighbor at night.

They are not the same because of their religion, they are different because of their interpretation.

Mutty
Thanks for providing an example.

Why do people do Evil?
Hemi_Cuda writes: Look People
You're missing my point regarding Islam.

The fact that a Christian will shoot an abortion doctor makes that individual evil. The fact that he is Christian does not.

Clear??

Jonty30 writes:

Actually I'm not clear on this point, since there isn't and has never been any Christian organization that has ever sanctioned shooting abortion doctors.

Perhaps you can make your point again, using examples of evil that Christian organizations largely supported?

Jack
It's so much nicer to have Leftist mindreaders like you around, who can divine various people's intentions for us. So much less messy that way! Without folks like you and yours, how would we know that Bush is an evil liar, or that Prager formed his conclusion before forming his argument?

God bless the psychic powers of the Left!

Jack: PS
I especially love the newest take on my screen name, "Sally MacLennane", with the extra -e on the end for EMPHASIS.

Nothing beats Leftists for sound, logical reasoning, devoid of passion or prejudice!

No devil?
The encounter in the Garden of Eden would be a fairly good example of the existence of Satan. Other ie..Job 1:6 "One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with with em." Another ie. Jesus' temptations in the desert; there are many more throughout the Bible.

C/o people doing evil; well, there is that whole free-will thing.


This is a great example!
Van writes: Tuesday, September, 04, 2007 4:32 AM
And
of course the existence of racism or homophobia is irrelevant to him, after all he supports both. Prager is the one who declared how hating islam and muslims is just rational thinking and how mexicans are taking over America, how muslims shouldn't be free to practice their religion (remember Ellison) but should be forced to take oaths on Bible) and his constant demeaning of gays...

--- Van is carefully wrapping himself in victimhood, making sure that nothing is exposed to rational thought...

Notice how he didn't mention how Jews believe that antisemitism exist are just evil. only epople who believe in racism or homophobia or xenophobia. All of which this bigot has excelled in.

--- Notice how the article said none of the above. Why let facts get in the way?

One more column in the series where Prageer makes excuses for hatred. I hope that he has the audacity to go and say to victims of consentration camps how their "evil" caused their fate.

--- Unlike your excuse for hatred. "they did it first" is not necessarily a valid argument if you expect to have high moral ground. If you are imbued with such a noble spirit, then why do you act worse than those you criticize? You only harm your own argument. I say worse, because you make unproven assertions, especially about things no one said, yet you dismiss those who would put some evidence and reason with their arguments. That is one of the main reasons, no one takes you seriously. You are practice material for real heavyweights.

jonty30
Perhaps you should read my post more carefully.

I wrote:
"The fact that a Christian will shoot an abortion doctor makes that individual evil. The fact that he is Christian does not."

You wrote:
"Perhaps you can make your point again, using examples of evil that Christian organizations largely supported?"

You completely missed my point, grabbed onto the words "Islam" and Christian", and then ran with it.

I was stating that the INDIVIDUAL'S interpretation of the religion is the problem. NOT the religion. The INDIVIDUAL that uses Christianity as a justification for an evil act is the problem.

Labeling an entire religion as "evil" for the interpretations of individuals is not thinking things through clearly.

NOW are you clear??

Born To Murder.

"And saw its water break, and saw, in fear,
Its quaking muscles in the act of birth,
Between her legs a pygmy face appear,
And the first murderer lay upon the earth."

*********************************************

The above is the last stanza of the poem, "Imperial Adam", by the Australian poet A.D. Hope. It is the ironic birth of the Biblically "First Born" of man, Cain. Who committed the first murder.

The entire poem is an enjoyable read and with the last stanza, the epitome of ironic

http://stuff.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/poetry/poems/imperialAdam.html

Buck*

*Since adding ones screen-name at the end of a post has become the affectation of those who consider themselves to the intellectually superior on TownHall.com, I thought, "What the heck"!

RecknHavic
"The encounter in the Garden of Eden would be a fairly good example of the existence of Satan."

Only if one accepts the Bible as literally true.

Why is it that so many fundamentalists accept the Bible's word as proof of the Bible's authority? Do y'all not see the circularity?

Reckinhavic
"The encounter in the Garden of Eden would be a fairly good example of the existence of Satan. Other ie..Job 1:6 "One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with with em." Another ie. Jesus' temptations in the desert; there are many more throughout the Bible."

This is hearsay. Did you see the devil in the garden of eden?

Know anybody that did? No?

Then it's not revalation. By it's definition, only those that were witness to an event can claim revalation. To all others it is a story or hearsay.

Believe everything your read, do you?

Hemi-Cuda
I said it first! ;-)

Seriously, I like what you've been saying this morning; nothing like an intelligent individual who seems to agree with me 100% to make my morning.

Oh, and I like your taste in cars!

FergusMacLennan
You beat me to it!

We can't be the only two people that use that lump of meat 3 feet north of our rear-ends, can we?

As for the car, all acolades go to my late father. He left me a real beauty...

to Van and Pero el butto
you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts... also... Yes, you both know so much that isn't so..

to paraphrase Ronaldus Magnus.

Victimhood?
Victimhood?

Like when we use 9-11 as an excuse to kidnap innocent people and torture them on the off chance that a few might be guilty?

Or when some claim we were “victims” of the Left and were "stabbed in the back" on Vietnam?

Kuni
Two questions:

1. Can you provide specific names of "innocent people" who were kidnapped AND tortured in the search for terrorists, and can you specify which forms of "torture" were used on them?

2. How do you define "torture"?

The Leftist Dance of the Sugarplum Straw Men continues, with choreography by Marx and Engels.

FergusM, Hemi_ now expand...
...this discussion with the introduction of the Adam + Eve teaching. Literal or factual, accepted according to individual perception of the story, and the place in time the individual heard the story. How the individual understood its meaning, and how its meaning was taught to others. All according to individual choice! This conversation is getting to the heart of temptation, accusation, denial, and all of evils properties. Religious, or atheist, its a part of all humans. One name, evil, with many elements of the whole. This is getting good!

Leo
In the latest flurry of Leftist hyperbole and blinkered moral myopia, Leo pronounces:

"During recent years [Prager] has advocated for all evil under the world."

ALL evil? Really?

Then as an example, Leo offers:

"Forcing muslim to swear oath of office by using Bible."

Interesting that as an example of evil in "the world," that's the first thing that leaps to Leo's mind, as opposed to, say, gay men having stone walls collapsed upon them. One can only presume that Leo either

a) mistakenly believes that Prager has advocated for such, but found the oath of office on a Bible controversy MORE evil,

or

b) believes that the category of "all evil [in] the world" does not include the collapsing of stone walls on gay men as punishment for their homosexuality, and thus confidently asserts that Prager has advocated for ALL evil in the world [emphasis mine].

Interesting worldview you've got, Leo... I just love it when you and Van tag-team like this. Just when he disappears, you show up... hmmm...

Expound Truth
I would be happy to respond to your inquiry, if you would just re-phrase it comprehensible, standard written English. As written, I can scarcely make heads or tails of it.

La la land
JohnCitizen writes: Tuesday, September, 04, 2007 9:37 AM

BUSH IS NUMBER ONE IN EVIL

"the $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich."

Isn't it strange how letting people keep their own property is a "giveaway"? Anybody who lives or works next to dear JohnCitizen has my permission to empty his wallet and don't giveaway to him anything else he thinks he owns.

Rich D
"JohnCitizen writes: Tuesday, September, 04, 2007 9:37 AM

BUSH IS NUMBER ONE IN EVIL

"the $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich."

Isn't it strange how letting people keep their own property is a "giveaway"?

Not only that, but it ignores the fact that under Bush's tax RATE cuts, not only have tax revenues increased dramatically, but that the *amount* paid in taxes by "the rich" has also dramatically increased. So it's hard to see where one can argue that "the rich" were given anything, except possibly the opportunity to find and create greater prosperity.

Leftist myopia is fun! The original Marx Brothers!

Van, you're an idiot.
Van writes:

"Typical supremacist bigot
So is Prager suggesting that Jews were more evil than nazis because they were "victims" and had "victim mentality". Of course to fascist like Prager any idea that there really is oppression in this world is an anathema and that trying to make that right is "evil".

And this vicious bigot is in board of Holocaust museum? What a joke.

Supremacist and totalitarian ideologies (like those of Prager) have caused most of evil in bthe world."

What the hell are you babbling about, Van? WHY is Prager a bigot? Why? Because he dares to expose the truth that there are millions of people in this world who see themselves as victims, either individually or collectively, by their race, gender, class, etc., even though so many of them are not victims, particularly in the USA, where we fight so hard to try to achieve equality of opportunity for all?

And what about so many misguided liberals and leftists who think America should stand for "equality of benefits" as opposed to "equality of opportunity", and see the inequality of benefits as oppression and exploitation?

Do you even know the definition of "fascist", Van? The way you label Prager a fascist in your pathetic post--the way so many lefties love to throw around that term like a punchline--shows that you don't. Just what "supremacist and totalitarian" ideology does he espouse? Get a life, fool.




New Testament word study…

The New Testament brings to full light what is revealed in the Old Testament as types and shadows…

Do a word study on ‘satan’ in the New Testament. Jesus Christ and His apostles held the view that he is no allegory of evil, but ‘the father of lies’ and the ‘accuser of the brethren’.

Mr. Prager cannot take a ‘plain meaning of the text’ approach to the Old Testament, because it becomes a book of unanswered promises and unfulfilled prophecy which only the New Testament can answer.

Valiant
"Do a word study on ‘satan’ in the New Testament. Jesus Christ and His apostles held the view that he is no allegory of evil, but ‘the father of lies’ and the ‘accuser of the brethren’."

So? Why should Mr. Prager care one lick what Jesus said, let alone his apostles? To Jews, Jesus was no one particularly special.


"Mr. Prager cannot take a ‘plain meaning of the text’ approach to the Old Testament"

Sure he can. Just because he believes differently than you regarding how to interpret the Torah scarcely makes him wrong and you right.

Ye gods! What is the matter with these narrow fundies?!?!? They're nearly as bad as Leftists!

Evil, Confirmed
To those who do not believe the Bible, the following will be meaningless, but to those who do believe, evil is personified in the form of Satan, the Devil, the Dragon, whatever you wish to call him.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent (Satan) was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
Ephesians 2:1-2
1 And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air (Satan), the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 4: 25-27
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another. 26...27 neither give place to the devil.
2 Corinthians 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent (Satan) beguiled Eve through his subtlety.
2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Revelation 12: 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels (now demons) were cast out with him.

That does it for me!








Expound
Adam and Eve, Job, Noah, all of it is up for interpretation.

If the individual decides for himself that the story of Adam and Eve paints women as "evil", then this individual can extrapolate from the Bible that it's OK to kill women. That, indeed, it is God's Will because that's what the Bible told him to do.

You or I or Fergus can read that story and the only thing we'd get out of it is that some temptations are more trouble than they're worth.

All of us would be Christians, but only one of us can be described as "evil".

tca
Pray enlighten us: list for us, please, each of the seven "Deadly Sins", and explain how they are embodied in capitalism.

True Captain??
"good point. nobody plays the victim like a socially conservative christian. the "war on christmas" cracks me up each year."

Actually, most groups like the gay and lesbian community, minorities and other groups of people that refuse to take personal responsibility play the victim card than anyone else.

These people are liberals and it is democrats that enable their victim mentality.

And as far as Christmas goes, why is it necessary to desparage people of faith that feel they need to celebrate a holiday in honor of the birth of Christ?

If you think this is so ridiculous, why don't you go to work while others have off? Open Christmas presents do you? You should refuse any gifts on Christmas then, if you are a person of conviction.

To denegrate people because of their beliefs but take advantage of their religious holidays makes you a bigot and a complete hypocrite.

Re: Why Do People Do Evil
A short excerpt from the book, “Man by Nature: The Hidden Programming Controlling Human Behavior,” explains human evil this way:

Historically we have viewed only members of our own tribe as “human” and have viewed all others as something less: early tribes usually identified themselves as “the People,” and other tribes as “non-People.” As non-People, outsiders could be treated cruelly without qualm, conscience, or even awareness. As William Blake wrote in “A Poison Tree”:

I was angry with my friend:
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

This dichotomy in the way we treat tribe members (friends) and outsiders (foes) is the source of endless debates over whether Man is “basically good” or “basically evil.” Those observing the love and sacrifice for one another within a tribe conclude we are by nature good and that evil is an aberration, while those observing our historical compulsion to war with one another conclude we are by nature evil and that good is achievable only through effort.

The truth is that by nature we are both good and evil – good to those who are like us, and evil to those who aren’t: our instinct is to love our friends and to harm our foes. It has been demonstrated repeatedly – sickeningly – that whenever we cease to view others as fellow humans, as belonging to any of our tribes, we can kill them as unconcernedly as we clear land of trees and boulders. Neither Hitler’s henchmen nor Jim Crow lynchers felt the slightest qualm about the murders they committed … nor might you, given proper circumstances and improper programming.

Adam Leonard (Author of "Man by Nature")

FergusMacLennan
TCA will prove our point when he twists his interpretation of the 7 deadly sins to fit his model of capitalism.

I can't wait....

Logic
eon:

I agree with your analysis. Progressive dogmas conflict with one another at every turn, such that there is no way to assemble them into a logically consistent system of thought. It is as you seem to have noticed: Debunking Progressive dogmas is like shooting fish in a barrel if your weapon is logic and your aim true.

Also, your remarks dovetail with another of Mr. Prager's themes: Progressives feel an overwhelming need to be loved, perhaps even worshiped. This need then feeds into their fantasy that they are at the point of the intellectual and moral vanguard that will improve or progress human society into a far better future, for which heroism men will love them. In any event, it's how their dogmas make them feel now instead of whether they'll wreak havoc in the future that matters most to them.

such a vapid column
i guess when you tow the party line, you tend to write stories meant for 4th grade religion classes.

so nice to see FORMER republican Kris Coster of Missouri switch because of failed neo con social policies that favor fanatic extremist fundamentalist "christians" in the gop (the quotes means they're not true christians)

human nature
Man is basically good--
like a rotten apple
is basically an apple.

True Captain
No one's playing the victim.

You're the one attacking people for their beliefs.

It's funny, you're the mugger that stabs someone for their wallet and then whines when the person you're mugging clasims they are the victim.

"don't insult my intelligence."

Wouldn't dream of it, you're doing fine all by your lonesome...

7 Deadly Sins
I believe Fergus was asking how you relate them to capitalism.

This oughta be good...

tca
That's four, and I didn't ask you to simply list them. You have a long way to go to explain how "sloth" plays into capitalism, much less "wrath" or "pride." You do know what the substance of each of those sins are, per Catholic doctrine, don't you? Or were you just talking out of your rear-end, as per usual?

And again, you originally wrote "they are the hallmarks of capitalism," not "some of them are hallmarks of capitalism." Listing four of the seven scarcely supports your point.

Leooser
Leo writes: Tuesday, September, 04, 2007 12:49 PM
crapprotector
"real heavywights"? Like Prager?

Prager is consistent, I give you that. During recent years he has advocated for all evil under the world. Forcing muslim to swear oath of office by using Bible. Declaring how being afarid of islam and muslims is only "rational" (in a same manner nazis thought that antisemitism was about national survival and "rational" people oppose the influence of the Jews"). As practicing homophobe anti-gay zealotry is just good natured family fun. Racism is just a word in Prager's delusional universe.

--- Are you Van in jerk's clothing? Can you people not read? Dennis never said any of those things.

And now he declares that the worst evil in the world are the victims. That recognizing the hatred or disctimination in society, even talking about it is evil. Unless of course the question isn't about fake ourage of limiting Christian's right to discriminate against others in public office. The suddenly being a victim is not evil but a virtue.

--- People who use their victimhood to excuse baser actions against their percieved victimizers. Vigilantism is not allowed in our society for a similar reason. Most people who have been vicitimized do not want their victimhood to be a permanent identifier of who they are. It is evil to say "I am a victim and that gives me a right to victimize others". That is Dennis' message. Duh.

And I agree that Prager's service in Holocaus commission is a disgrace. Absolute and utter disgrace.

--- But then you are comprehension-challenged, so that is no surprise.

tca
Apologies, I only caught the catch-up email listing four... but again, listing them scarcely answers the question I originally asked.

parkprotector
How does your post add anything to the discussion of why people do "evil" things?

I was unaware that this was a thread of hit-pieces on Prager.

Hemi-Cuda
pakprotector was replying to Leo's hit piece... pak's comments are indented with hyphens; he has an odd way of quoting material.

tca
Thank you for conforming to my earlier observation of those who call me "ferg" or "fergy."

Your explanations are laughable, and show little understanding of Catholic doctrine. Your analysis of "Sloth" as a component of capitalism shows absolutely no understanding of what investment capital *is*, let alone how it works. And as for Pride... how, apart from a general, "BOOOOOSH is the source of all EEEEEEVIL! McBushitlerchimpiraq" sense, how is this at all relevant to capitalism as an economic system?

Can you lay off the comic relief for five minutes and answer honestly?

Madison on the nature of man
Madison truly believed in the mixed nature of man. Here, [from The Federalist #10] he deals with those aspects of man that lead to faction, and hence, could lead to evil acts:

"The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government."

The difference between personal and
sociatal evil:

There are personal evils that people do, such at torture/murders and the like, but there are collective evils which are made up of small actions of individuals, when taken as a collective make a great evil.

For example, Thomas Jefferson was not an evil man, in fact, he was a great man. But he participated in a great sociatal evil known as slavery.

I worked at a corporation that used to work people until they had chronic pain, until they started to go blind, until their marriages split up, until their nerves were shot.

At one point, I was working 80 hour weeks, and sometimes slept on the floor by my desk to meet unreasonable deadlines.

But when you would try and analyze who was at fault, there was no one single person you could point to who made a decision to work their employees to death. Each person in the chain of command was afraid for their job, and afraid to say "no" to those above them.

There was no one in management who committed himself to working people beyond endurance.

When there is a collective evil, it is much harder to rectify, because the many small innocuous decisions and actions that add up to the evil can't be easily isolated, since they are each harmless.

True Captain
"sloth- money for nothing. in a capitalist system the hardest workers in the world make the least amount of money. the goal is not to work hard but to make money so that you don't have to work."

Ahh, the first part of your statement is completely false. Americans make the most money per capita in the world. Part of the reason so many people show up on our doorstep. You wish to absolve people of being responsible for their own success/failure?

"wrath- capitalism is dog eat dog. as violent a human construct as has ever been construed, except religion."

Here's your own interpretation, your own opinion at work. My guess is that you've failed at least once in your life and have never gotten over it. But hey, it's a free country, twist away!!

"pride- well you can't spell hUbriS without u.s. look where we are in iraq and then look back to where the bushies said we would be before we invaded."

Now we get to the heart of things!! Just a matter of time before you got around to blaming Bush for capitalism.

You are just a silly liberal, and before one can insult your intelligence, you must display intelligence. But rest assured, when you do I'll be more than happy to insult it!

The degradation of values...
Evil is timeless and will always be part of the human condition.

That stated, traditional values and the cultural consensus that derives from them have become endangered. The cultural anarchy that has resulted encourages aberrant behavior, that ranges from simple lying to amoral acts.

For my full post on the related issue of indecency please see my post at:

http://clearcommentary.townhall.com

Phil Mella
ClearCommentary.com

Hitler's henchmen, Jim Cow lynchers.
Quote Adam:

"Neither Hitler’s henchmen nor Jim Crow lynchers felt the slightest qualm about the murders they committed …"

Hmm. You left out Stalin's starver's of millions of Kulak's. Your exclusive mention of only perceived right wing atrocities begs the question of just who's side you're on. Or am I reading too much into your omission(s)?

Which Group did the most evil?
Whites, Asians, Blacks, Hispanics, or Arabs.

Which Group did the most evil on the earth?

Which Group is the best at justifying its evil?

Which Group will feel the most fear standing in front of God on Judgement Day?
--------------------

When you see an evil person and a savage person fighting, who do you root for?

Better yet, When see an Evil Nation fighting againts a Savage Nation, who do you root for?


sfasu7932
"My feeling about True Captain Anal_orifice is that since he hates capitalism and free enterprise so much he needs to move to one of those "Socialist Paradises," like Cuba, North Korea, Zimbabwe, or Vietnam."

I think you're right. I honestly think he failed in some business venture or was bettered in the business world somehow and wants to blame the system.

tca
Certainly. As soon as you show due courtesy, I will be happy to explain my position to you.

Why a good capitalist must...
...resist the seven deadly sins:

Here, I'm borrowing heavily from thoughts expressed by Michael Novak, this philosophical agnostic's favorite Catholic theologian. He takes the basic goodness of American capitalism very seriously.

A good capitalist, in both senses of the word {competent and ethical] cannot do his job if he succumbs to...

lust--he must maintain proper relationships with employees, customers and suppliers. Lust would truly lead him astray.

greed--he cannot take now what he needs to reinvest to maintain and grow his business. A greedy capitalist cares not for the future.

envy--if a capitalist wants what others have, he will work hard for it. He will not wallow in Prager's victimhood status.

sloth--a good capitalist can't by definition be lazy. Running a business well is very hard work.

wrath--when things go wrong, and they will, the good capitalist must keep a tight rein on his temper. Expressing anger may occasionally be useful, but most of the time it ruins treasured relationships.

pride--a good capitalist will feel pride and occasionally express pride in a job well done. But pride must not degenerate into snobbery or hubris.

gluttony--just as a good capitalist must not be greedy, he must not be a glutton, sucking up all resources (not just food) for his own delight and satiation. A good capitalist must share with a great many people.

To truly know the qualities entrepreneurs must develop for success is to know that they can't possibly succumb [save the occasional lapse] to the seven deadly sins. And so, they must not do evil.

Dixiecrat
It seems as though you wish to assign "evil" to an entire group, whether it's by etnicity or religion or geographical location.

I put to you that it is up to the individual to make choices whether or not to be "evil".

If a Hispanic person kills someone, what makes him/her "evil"?

Is it the fact that they're Hispanic? Or is it the fact that they killed someone?

Those facts are mutually exclusive as are religion, or location.

If there is a judgement day, each person will be judged by their actions, not the color of their skin.

tca
Hard work has never been directly related or inversely related to making money.

You must work smart, not just hard.

Investment is hard AND smart work. You don't just slap a wad of bills on the craps table and walk away a millionaire. That's not how capitalism works.

Consider this: NONE of us works as hard as our great-grandparents while almost ALL of us make more money and enjoy easier lives than they did. Technology has a great deal to do with the difference.

I agree with tomgee, adam above also
Victim hood is partially right, but a major dimension of victim hood is envy. People who are guilty of envy usually think they are victims of something or another. I think envy is a major source of evil in the world. I also believe that people naturally tend to be evil. You do not have to teach children to lie, steal, cheat, hit, bite, or be jealous. They do these things naturally and you have to teach them not to do those things. That’s why I am a Presbyterian/Calvinist.

Evil
What is evil? It seems we are quick to say "why" evil, but it seems everyone has their own definition.

Anyone care to take a stab? Define evil.

Evil
What is evil? It seems we are quick to say "why" evil, but it seems everyone has their own definition.

Anyone care to take a stab? Define evil.

Ken
"You do not have to teach children to lie, steal, cheat, hit, bite, or be jealous. They do these things naturally and you have to teach them not to do those things. That’s why I am a Presbyterian/Calvinist."

Interesting point. this may illustrate man's base instinct for evil behavior.

But just because you're a Presbyterian/Calvinist does not make you an authority on rearing children properly. Perhaps you just know right from wrong.

verbivore
An excellent question.

It depends on who you ask.

If you ask someone like tca, capitalism is evil. Now, I feel this is hysterical nonsense, but he truly believes it.

If you ask me, evil is willfully causing pain and suffering with no other motive than to cause pain and suffering.

This may be simplistic, but hey, who says I'm right anyway?

Amen LaborLawyer
Amen Laborlawyer. You have expressed Dennis' problem very well. I, too, was an avvid listener 10 years ago and developed great respect for Dennis' thoughtfulness. After moving from the area and having to rediscover Dennis all over again through the net, I am surprised that he still holds some of the same veiws that he held 10 years ago. He hasn't grown. He seems to simplify things and work backwards to support his already formed conclusions.

I'll continue to listen even though I don't agree with a lot of things that Dennis considers evil. In a lot of cases, evil is in the eyes of the beholder.

The invasion of another country so that you can maintain your current standard of living is one case in point.

tca
Given that free market capitalism has brought greater material prosperity to more people around the world than any other economic system, the following "witticism"...

""good capitalist"
is that like a "compassionate conservative""

... is singularly ignorant and ill-informed.

Hemi_Cuda
I don't claim to be an authority. I am an old man and a retired teacher. I have raised and help raise many children. Calvinist theology seems to fit my life observations.

tca
"good capitalist"
"is that like a "compassionate conservative"

I defined him as competent and ethical in my post. Try to pay attention. It needs at least minimum wage.

Ken
Just sounds to me that you know right from wrong regardless of what theology you subscribe to.

I did not intend to come off as giving you a hard time about your religion. If I offended, I do apologise.

LeftIsEvil
"I defined him as competent and ethical in my post. Try to pay attention. It needs at least minimum wage."

I believe tca is bankrupt in both areas...

definitions of evil from Encarta
Definitions 1, 2, and 4 are closest to what Prager and I would consider the best definitions of evil:

"1. morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong

2. harmful: deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset
This evil act is clearly the work of terrorists.

3. causing misfortune: characterized by, bringing, or signifying bad luck
an evil omen

4. malicious: characterized by a desire to cause hurt or harm
an evil mood

5. devilish: connected with the devil or other powerful destructive forces
evil spirits

6. disagreeable: very unpleasant
What an evil smell!"

SFA
My favorite oxymoron is "Democratic Socialist."

:)

Yeah, victims, we're all victims...
and there are no perps left.

Madison, as quoted: A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes,...

Could this be related to Prager's notion of victimhood? The farmers want subsidies and protection from being victimized by bad weather and imported food, the manufactures want protection from being victimized by imported cheaper products, the bankers want their loans guaranteed, the laborers victimized by capitalists want guaranteed pensions and healthcare, etc., each claiming "victim" status so we get classes competing for government favors through their victim mongers (read lobbyists and demagogues like Jackson) and politicians who pander to them all. Heck, now even the politicians are claiming victimization by talk radio and political contributers, so they want to limit money and campaign spending.

Why can't the government stay within the bounds of the Constitution so that no favors can be handed out?