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Tuesday, July 24, 2007
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Cruelty to Animals Leads to Cruelty; Kindness to Animals Doesn't Lead to Kindness
by Dennis Prager
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With the recent charges that a major National Football League player had allowed cruel dog fights on his home property, the issue of cruelty to animals has been brought to national attention.

Nearly everyone acknowledges the obvious -- that a person who is cruel to animals, who enjoys sees seeing an animal suffer, is likely to inflict suffering on human beings. Cruelty to animals is one of the very few predictors among children of later criminal behavior.

So, aside from altruistic concern for animals, we human beings also have a selfish concern about people who enjoy making animals suffer. People who enjoy hurting animals will very likely hurt us, too.

The problem arises when we assume that the converse is equally true -- that just as cruelty to animals leads to cruelty to human beings, kindness to animals leads to kindness to people.

It doesn't. Kindness to animals is entirely unrelated to kindness to human beings -- except perhaps in the reverse order: People who treat people kindly are less likely to treat animals with cruelty.

But there is no connection whatsoever between treating animals kindly and treating people kindly. You know nothing about a person's treatment of people by knowing that he or she is kind to animals or is an "animal lover." Indeed, if there is any connection, it is more likely to be in the opposite direction. It seems that at a certain point of preoccupation with animals, there is a real chance that such a person may well treat people worse.

In his book "The Nazi War on Cancer (Princeton University Press, 1999)," Stanford Professor Robert N. Proctor writes a great deal about the Nazis' antipathy to animal experimentation. For example, the book features a Nazi cartoon depicting "the lab animals of Germany saluting Hermann Goring" for his protection of them.

This Nazi protection of animals is described by the leftist writer Alexander Cockburn:

"In April 1933, soon after they had come to power, the Nazis passed laws regulating the slaughter of animals. Later that year Herman Goering [sic] announced an end to the 'unbearable torture and suffering in animal experiments' and -- in an extremely unusual admission of the existence of such institutions, threatened to 'commit to concentration camps those who still think they can continue to treat animals as inanimate property.' Bans on vivisection were issued -- though later partly rescinded -- in Bavaria and Prussia. Horses, cats and apes were singled out for special protection. In 1936, a special law was passed regarding the correct way of dispatching lobsters and crabs and thus mitigating their terminal agonies. Crustaceans were to be thrown into rapidly boiling water. Bureaucrats at the Nazi Ministry of the Interior had produced learned research papers on the kindest method of killing."

In the case of the Nazis, the moral inversion is particularly dramatic, since the Nazis' opposition to experimentation on animals was accompanied by their support for the grotesque and sadistic medical experiments on innocent Jews and others in Nazi concentration camps.

The ancient Hebrew Prophet Hosea saw this inverted morality in his day as well: "Those who offer human sacrifice kiss calves" (Hosea 13.2).

For those tempted to caricature the argument presented here, I should make it clear that no one is making the absurd argument that animal rights activists are likely to be Nazis. Pointing out that the Nazis were major animal rights activists -- and that Hitler was a vegetarian -- is done only to offer a vivid illustration of how easily kindness to animals and cruelty to humans can coexist.

Human beings are not moderates, but extremists, by nature. Attitudes toward animals provide an excellent example. On the one hand are the innumerable human beings throughout history who have regarded animals as things to be treated as mercilessly as one would an inanimate object. This accounts for the widespread practice of cock fighting and other 'sports' that feature animals painfully killing one another for humans' entertainment.

And on the other hand are those, especially today, who equate animal worth with human worth -- such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), which inaugurated a campaign a few years ago called "Holocaust on your plate." The program equates the barbecuing of chickens with the Nazi burning of Jews.

So, in our appropriate condemnation of those who organize dog fights, let's not fool ourselves about the impact of animal kindness on human beings' character. It simply doesn't exist.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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More On Man and Animals
I have noticed two contradictory views about man offered by secularists.

On the one hand, man is viewed as the most highly developed product of evolution. This view is meant to address the perceived absurdities of the creationist view.

On the other hand, when man wants to drill for oil in ANWR, he is considered an intruder in nature and must yield to the migration patterns of caribou. Or similarly, if a man defends himself by shooting a bear, he may be punished as having entered the bear's habitat, and not vice versa.

Note also that many who wince at a lobster being boiled do not blink at the abortion of the human fetus.

David's article is relevant so long as relativists view animals the way they do.

americangirl
Read David Limbaugh's article Friday July 27, 07 at Townhall or at JWR entitled Saying What "Progressives" Want to Hear.
He did a good job at summarizing the non-logic of the Progressive.


Bearjack
Thanks Bearjack. My grandmother's was hand driven as you probably know.

My niece was put in the hospital for e-coli but the government determined that it came from a salad bar at a restaurant.

I have had food poisoning, once from a cream dessert left out on the counter by a hostess, once from gazpacho at a very expensive restaurant, I believe. When farmers pick produce off the ground and wild animals have passed by and done their business, it is very easy, as the apple juice scare in California a few years ago showed. Now they flash pasteurize.
It is rumored here in California that the spinach people always knew the danger and did nothing to improve the situation until people got sick.





Thanks, Bearjack....
....to the ridiculously illogical outbreaks of emotion on this thread regarding the U.S. food supply. Considering the innumerable much greater risks to our lives in everyday living (e.g. driving a car), the worry demonstrated by some over the ground meat available in U.S. groceries is simply laughable.

Ground Meat
I would like to take issue with AGIB's post regarding the CDC's statistics.

Although the CDC identifies ground meat as a potentially high risk, they DO NOT assert that a high percentage of those 5,000 deaths and 325,000 contaminations came from commercially processed beef. Indeed between 1998 and 2002 the CDC records only 5 known deaths in the entire US tracable to beef contamination. Most of those were the result of errors in food preparation.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5510a1.htm#tab9

The beef industry responds so forcefully to any detected outbreak that the public remembers the beef contamination, but forgets much more deadly outbreaks in spinich, onions, lettuce, strawberries, milk, peanut butter, etc.

You are more likely to encounter e-coli in organically fertilized produce than in comercially produced ground beef.

Bytheocean: Following is a link to a description of the meat grinder I use. (I am not endorsing the site as a place to buy it) It is easy to use and clean.

http://www.ekitchengadgets.com/mammmegr.html?CS_003=740690&CS_010=mammmegr

progressive compassion at work:
see

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1185040507206380.xml&coll=7

or search Google:
unruly schoolboys or sex offenders?

If yow want to donate go to

http://dennisprager.townhall.com/blog.aspx#3393d4d4-3101-4f4d-aa5b-7c9b3719e533

Anyone want to call Prager a sophist now?







mayo
One should buy mayonnaise in the squeeze bottles and squeeze it out of the jar. Putting a knife into the mayo increases the chance of introducing a germ into a medium ideal for growing germs. People who self poison with mayo have usually used the knife approach to the mayo jar.




ground beef
The reason I avoid ground beef is because you are getting meat from a hundred cows thereby increasing your chance of getting Mad Cow Disease. If you eat ground beef that is ground yourself, that one cow has to have Mad Cow Disease to put you at risk.

One has to be scrupulous about keeping the meat grinder clean. Maybe today people use a Cuisinart. In my grandmother's day she used one of those things that screwed onto a kitchen counter, based on the screw mechanism. It was very hard to clean.






Ground Meat
To those of you who worry about the processing of ground meat, I suggest you do as I do... Grind it yourself.

The grocery stores sell 80% lean ground beef at $3.69/lb (Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC), but sell lean top round roasts at $1.99/lb - much leaner than 80%. I buy the roasts, feed them into the grinder, and know how my ground meat is processed.

animalgirl
"You value people's ability to 'communicate' and reach people's emotions, not their ability to reason in a structured way. "

Hello? I value communication. Have you ever noticed that to communicate people need to speak the same language? I am suggesting that you and RHB speak English and not math. Math is a language.
You made a leap of logic by assuming that if people "communicate" they are doing it on emotion. That is a faulty non-logical leap. What is this a new twist on Darwinian law? "There has been evolution. The primitive species on the planet speaks English but the progressive homo sapiens speaks math? We the superior people have inherited the planet and we can make use of it over the inferior people. We can take their resources and rule over them."? Sorry lady, I have the vote, little old me. As my grandmother used to say: futuscrtchemutay. What? You don't understand? Obviously you are given to emotional impulses and are an inferior person compared to my grandeurrrrrr.(sarcasm)
As usual you did not answer. Anyway I am betting your choice is Gore. You insult people and if they respond you say "oh, how emotional you are." I'll remember that the next time there is a march with the progressives on the other side of the street. They had a loudspeaker. We didn't. They used their loudspeaker. I answered them in my voice. Later their leader came over and said "You shouted. Do you think that was fitting?" in the same morally superior way as you. I said "I did not have a loudspeaker." Hey, now I have a loudspeaker.
I agree with you that hamburger is suspect. So is raw fish. I also do not eat veal, which is purely emotional.
So if you want to communicate with me, give me a parable using WORDS.
And I suggest you not go into trial work, nor advertising, nor teaching any subject other than math, nor writing...
The jury would not be impressed with your act.
























Bear Jack -- No Blood for Agri-Crops!

Is there any wonder that AGIB's version of Cain and Abel involves a conspiracy?

Hi Cutter
Whenever I eat bread, I try to think of it as flesh, and when I drink wine I think of blood, as Jesus instructed.

I am glad you had a good laugh - that's what it is all about. You must be eating the right stuff!

Delusional
"Your posts show that you do not understand the principles of logic, and do not value logical thinking."

Your post suggests that you are delusional. I assume you hear voices when you read posts on this board.

I cited my own personal experience; indeed I have known some extremely violent vegetarians. And their wrath was directed against others because they did not share their dietary choices – only this and nothing more. I cited some biblical references, which seems reasonable given the biblical reference in the original article. I caution readers not to read too much into ancient texts.

From this you synthesize that I neither understand nor value logical thinking. Then you reveal your own version of Genesis to the world. I would say that you have a screw loose somewhere.

Maybe you ought to get together with your "voices" and get your own bible written instead on sitting in judgement of the rest of us on this forum.

Bear Jack - "Red Meat" for Vegetarians:

Had to laugh when I read, “[T]he first murder in the Bible was committed by a vegetarian over food.” Talk about serving up “Red Meat?!” LOL

There has been speculation that Cain’s sacrifice was not from his best crops – the verse in Genesis simply noting “Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah,” whereas Abel’s sacrifice was described as “the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering. Implying that Cain’s offering was unremarkable (displeasing) but Abel’s extraordinary and therefore pleasing to God.

The worthiness of their offerings aside, the Bible is filled with typology – forebodings of things to come and symbolisms. Abel’s sacrifice was a “Blood Sacrifice” and signified that nothing less than the future Savior’s (Christ’s) death (a Blood Sacrifice) would be acceptable for the forgiveness of our sins. “Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us and offered himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God.” (Ephesians 5:2)

animalgirl
"Liberals ...are more likely to show compassion towards animals, "

"I do avoid some foods, like ground beef, because the way it is processed in the country is unsanitary and frankly disgusting (I just substitute ground sirloin, which is more expensive, but worth it if I can avoid e. coli.)"


Yeah, geez, "bad" ground beef (miraculously processed differently and not so "disgustingly" as ground sirloin) is a terrible problem in this country; Americans are dropping sick and dead like flies from eating burgers.



Take a page from Spock: relying on emotion and anecdotes is .... illogical.

Most people do not take kindly to finger waggers. How is your finger wagging any different from Prager's?

CB
I agree with you 100%! :)

Biblical Reference
In my experience, I have noticed that vegetarians and vegans tend to be angrier about the feeding habits of others than other groups. They pronounce their beliefs and sometimes try to force their beliefs on the rest of us.

Prager brings up the Hebrew prophet Hosea as an example of people being nice to animals and cruel to humans. But, consider a better example in Genesis 4:1-10. Cain, "a tiller of the ground" killed his brother Abel, "a keeper of sheep" because the Lord didn't have any respect for his vegetarian offering.

Certainly we can only put so much weight on the truths derived from ancient biblical text. But it is interesting that the first murder in the bible was committed by a vegetarian over food.

If the tendency of some vegetarians towards angry outbursts against their meat eating brothers was so great that it made it into such a prominent place in the Bible, maybe there is some basis in fact.

Prager is WRONG!!!
In English, Goering is spelt as Alexander Cockburn spells it. In German it has no e but an umlaut over the o. So there!

Test
I could have sworn I posted a thank you for Dennis for bringing this subject out to such a large audience, but maybe it didn't go through for some reason, or I had a blackout while watching a liberal on Fox.

Romney/Vick '08
Given how Romney treated his dog and his support for torturing human beings, I think he should have Michael Vick as his running mate.

animalfgirl, I won't waste my
time,as you say, insulting you. You do just fine doing it to yourself through your posts.

animalgirlisback, why would you say
"If that were the case, I doubt that Prager would take so much time to state that caring about animals isn't a mark of virtue. Pretty much everything he says is a tact to try to demonize his political opponents"

As far as I can tell you were the only poster who made an issue of liberals vs. conservatives being more superior when it comes to being kind to animals. Mr. Prager never said anything of the kind. Sweeping generalizations about "everything he says" does not help support your argument either.

And don't start with the people in Georgia are such and such because that is where I am from baloney. First of all, that claim is most likely not true since you cannot possibly know everyone in Georgia. Instead of hiding behind that, just say you cannot possibly know how everyone, everyplace, everywhere acts or thinks and you have absolutely NO idea if humane and animal rescue organizations are predominantly liberals.

americagirlisback
You know I am a logical person and an educated person. I just don't happen to speak math. Why don't we speak music? "A C E C B C . What you don't understand me? What a fool you are compared to my magnificent and rare intelligence. The mirror cracks when I look in it because it can't take my stupendousness." (sarcasm)
You accuse me of valuing emotion and not thought? This from someone who is likely to vote for Hlllary or Obama or Edwards??!!?? HA! Hillary lies like a sailor. Obama is a Hollywood creation. Edwards is a trial lawyer. Which one do you want to lead the free world? Kucinich: let's sit down and discuss peace with Iran, Kucinich? "Peace in our time" Kucinich. Gravel? "Oh his Youtube was so deep", Gravel. Uh huh. Oh maybe it's Biden with his small glasses on the tip of his small nose reliving his Watergate days. Or maybe you are waiting for the return of the great one, The Gore, Mr Demagogue himself, Mr. "Scientist". Oh what a mind you have, americagirl.











My personal opinion
Liberalism, Animal rights extremism, and most modern environmentalism, are all based primarily on misanthropy. It is not a selfless desire to help others that motivates most hardcore leftists, but rather that they feel a need to impose their own idea of order on poor, benighted, violence-prone humanity. They seem to believe they are simply much smarter & wiser than the majority of people, and thus they they should be the ones giving the orders. Animal rights extremists are not so much about elevating the status of animals, as they are about debasing the status of people. Environmentalists leaders that get the press all seem to agree that people are the worst thing that ever happened to the earth. They would have us believe that this is based on some scientific understanding. However, in my opinion it is rooted in a disdain for humanity. Frankly I don't really give a darn about the planet, the planet will take care of itself. We have to look out for the human race. While I certainly believe that we should be good stewards of God's creation, the earth is here for us (humanity) to use for our benefit.

animalgirlisback
No they are not in my head. I was reporting actual conversations with real live human beings. I live in the equivalent of Bezerkely. Savage lives in the Bay Area, same area. Oh to add another comment, when we were talking about the chance of mass killing due to a dirty bomb(s) going off in the US and the chance of a couple of hundred thousand dieing, one progressive guy's response was "well who cares, there are hundreds of thousands of children dieing in the US all the time due to poverty and lack of medical attention. What's the difference?" At which point we decided we had nothing further to say to him and he decided he had nothing further to say to us. As I said I don't remember Jesus saying p is the converse of XYZ.
Funny how nothing I've brought up has actually been answered other than the insult: "people like you". Typical.





not ashamed to be right
Wow! Capitalism in action. Not such a good idea though as the visceral response from those of the true faith is sure to give those believers a stroke. They have to lighten up and learn to judge the serious from the silly and the truly dangerous from the yapping curs.

I don't get it.
Well I have met a lot of progressives who would kill to protect a spotted owl but who would not bat an eyelid if the Jewish civilization of 6,000 years was wiped out, in Israel and in the US. They might even have a glass of wine to celebrate. I certainly have met progressives who when it is pointed out that there will be a bloodbath in Iraq, with millions killed and executed, if we leave immediately, that does not bother them either. The fact that Saddam was throwing people into wood chippers feet first, and throwing people off tall buildings, that did not bother them. I have had a progressive say to me "please explain why people are getting upset about beheadings?", and progressives, to whom I have repeated that, agree. It bothers progressives if Israel knocks down a house to destroy a tunnel that was designed to kill Israelis, that will get them all hot and bothered, as will Israel building a fence that saves Israeli lives, that is terrible to a progressive. Somehow our media has failed to report that the Lebanese army destroyed a Palestinian "refugee camp" which is more like a small city of apartment buildings and was home to 400,000 Palestinian refugees. The Lebanese razed it to the ground and killed the criminals they were fighting. Somehow there has been a deathly silence in the news about that, (but we do know that Lohan took cocaine). What is the logic, oh "logical ones", behind getting upset about 1 home destroyed and not getting upset about the homes of 400,000 people? Or are Arabs the only ones who are allowed to take the steps necessary to survive but if the US or if Israel did the exact same thing, we would have hell to pay with Cindy Sheehan? Is that not racist, or ethnicist, when the behavior is the same but the judgment is different? Or is it that the goals are acceptable in one but the goal of survival of the US and the goal of the survival of Israel is not acceptable? I don't get it. And Kerry in the last few days, denying that millions of Vietnamese were slaughtered. Oh yes, that was rich. Where did they disappear to? Oh, re-education camps. Thank you Kerry. They must still be in those camps because their families have not heard from them in 40 years.
I doubt that Prager considers himself a mathematician. I think he considers himself a communicator. He has taken this opportunity to note something he noted on air years ago, before this case of dog fighting came up. He used words like "the converse and "the reverse". You are right. I do not think he wrote it up as a mathematical formula. I doubt that RHB can communicate with many humans, humans being the ones with whom one needs to communicate, an assumption I know. Jesus used parables. He was a leader and a communicator. If Jesus 2,000 years ago talked about p being the converse of c and vice versa, would they still be discussing what Jesus said 2,000 years later? Did Moses speak like that? Did Mohammed speak like that? Did Ghandi speak like that? Did Churchill(the British one) speak like that? Hmmmm they were all leaders. I guess they were all ignorant fools and the only intelligent life in the universe is RHB and animalgirlisback. So what is your dinner conversation like RHB? My guess is: if the train leaves Chicago at 6 pm traveling east and a train leaves New York at 8 pm traveling west and the miles per hour are x and y, when shall they pass each other, is what you would consider to be a scintillating conversation? Too bad you didn't ask the democratic candidates on Youtube last night your question about p and q, RHB. I would have loved to have heard their answers, they being your oh so intelligent leaders and all. Funny, I can read what Einstein wrote and he is fascinating. He did not consider himself a mathematician either.






















animalgirlisback
We should throw LIBERALS to pit bulls!

Also, K I was not the one
who came up with "liberalism is a mental disorder." Clearly I gave credit to Michael Savage for the description (it is the title on one of his books as well.)

Cliff, it has been posted
that some of these liberal posters are actually TH employees hired for that exact purpose.

as for the "ad hominem"
remarks by me to you....hmmm, sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Regardless, I am not afraid to call you on your absurd statements which cannot be supported by fact, nor am I afraid to call you on your supposed liberal superiority over conservatives. Now, back to the subject at hand, which is Mr. Prager's column.

K, maybe before you are so quick to judge my post directed to animal girl (and not to you) you had best address your post to several others who have, as you said, strayed from the subject of the column. Have a good night.

animalgirlisback,
Yes, I most certainly do know many, many conservatives who are involved in humane and rescue organizations. Being involved in these groups has absolutely nothing to do with a person's political affiliation. I would imagine you already know that, but you just could not resist the opportunity to claim liberals are superior to conservatives in yet another way.

You really can't object ...
to the silly and obnoxious liberals who post here. If someone has something serious to say you read. If they are just folks who never left college behind you skip it.
You have to remember that sll the hits and posts allows TH to sell space for advertising. Don't know about you guys, but if I ask my wife for any more money for the measely contributions I am able to make, and they are a pittance, I will have to contribute my meal chit.

So, we love these folks coming aboard and hope that they bring their friends. Ka-Ching goes the TH cash register.

To: Not Ashamed to be Right:
If liberalism is a mental disorder, what is picking on another human being for a couple of her comments which just happen to rub you the wrong way? Is that really the best use of this forum?

I thought we were discussing animal rights groups, extremism, and what qualifies as a caring person. Ironic since some people posting here obviously have no problem hurting someone else's feelings for lousy reasons.

Can we please stick to the subject?

yes
Prager was describing human behavior. One does not need mathematical formulae to figure out how humans act because humans do not act mathematically.
Yes they are more likely to buy something cheap than expensive, and more likely to buy something necessary than something trivial. Tax laws can affect some behavior by providing punishment or reward but you can't even say that 1 + 1 = 2 anymore nor that 1+ 1 = 3 anymore when it applies to humans.





pcon-T, also wouldn't you
like to see supporting statistics/data to
verify animalgirl's quote "Liberals
...are more likely to show compassion towards animals."

Don't hold your breath, since it is an idiotic premise to begin with...kind of like the other misconception that liberals donate more to charitable causes.

pcon-T, beautiful response to animalgirl
You said, "But animalgirl shouldn't dare pretend that liberals are the high and mighty ones and conservatives are troglodytes who care only about themselves."

pcon-T, that is exactly what animal girl does about 80% of the time, the other 20% is spent telling everyone how great she is. Actually, did the column even mention the word liberals or conservatives? And did Prager imply that one or the other is more kind towards animals?

Animal girl can often be found trolling TH telling others what a wonderful, brilliant, kind, fantastic mother of a genius child, etc. mild mannered librarian, liberal she is. Now she has added on that she "works" with animal rights groups and as such knows all about them too. Since none of it can ever be verified, what is posted could be complete make believe. This person often puts down conservatives, but you can get her going with Michael Savage's quote that "liberalism is a mental disorder." Your other quote may have done the same.

Packrat
Packrat writes: Please read the article, not just respond to single sentences.
Mr. Prager said ", I should make it clear that no one is making the absurd argument that animal rights activists are likely to be Nazis. "

End of lesson "

Sorry Mr. Packrat if my post implied that I believe animal rights activists are nazis. I certainly was not intending to suggest any thing of the sort. I believed I was simply validating Mr. Prager's premise that kindness to humans does not always follow kindness to animals. I cited that I have seen this principle born out in a 'handful of people.' I was not even thinking of animal rights activists. Let me repost my comment here.

"I was not aware that the Nazis were concerned about cruelty to animals. In my own unscientific observations I have known a handful of people who treated animals like children but could be extremely cold and/or cruel to even those people deserving of their affection."

Brilliant as always...

Print this article, hand it to the average American, who does not know Prager, and 99% will agree with him.

The common sense and mainstream thoughts of Prager, are attacked by self-absorbed children, afraid to face growing up. And when forced to work for their money... These kids soon become... Pragerites !!!

Yes, young libbies, when you are faced with yourselves 20 years from now, conservatives you will be.

I would like to be the first to welcome you... twenty years early, to the Republican Party :)


The Point of the Article
The point of the article is clear- because people love animals does not necessarily mean they love people. Mr. prager makes his point,weakly, by mentioning certain animal rights organizations. He could have been much stronger in making his point. There are numorous animal rights organizations in this country whose members commit crimes against their fellow humans in the name of animals; activists who place nails in trees for the purpose of killing the tree cutter, all the way to the present day activities of animal rights terrorism where activists threaten companies and employers of companies, and Wall Street with acts of terrorism if they do not stop their medical experimentation on animals. Regardless how you feel about animals, it cannot be disputed that these people have equated their love of animals with a distorted and sick form of protection of animals and hatred of human beings.

PETA
Animalgirl and JC Dean, thank you for backing me up.

This is what I'm hearing from this forum: blah blah blah liberals are nuts blah blah blah the far right is nuts. Am I in a time warp that took me to first grade? Modern television has done a wonderful job in dumbing us down and making us act like spoiled brats. Can we talk about animals for a minute?

The environmental activist, animal rights and animal caregiver folks that I know are busy doing productive things. Cleaning up rivers, untangling whales from fishing nets, cleaning cages in animal shelters, bandaging up pets that have been hit by cars. These are the "radicals" that are stereotyped to be terrorizing our streets.

Just because the Center for Consumer Freedom has some perverted obsession with PETA does not mean that the small percentage represents the animal caregiving community. Stop stereotyping.

Here's a piece of advice for everyone reading: Don't take my word for it. Visit your local animal shelter, vet clinic, or environmental group. Observe for yourselves what they are spending their time doing, and then judge them.

LEFTIES...

Maybe the point to be made is....

The liberals on Townehall are simply societies misfits... unable to fit in...

I feel your pain. I grew up a liberal misfit too. Life seemed easier to others and I didn't know why? After many years of suffering, I began to listen to people on the Right. Soon, I began to feel better and my life became much easier.

Now, I can have happiness without alcohol or prozac. I still don't attend Church or concern myself with the Bible. But, my happiness comes from my honesty. I am honest to myself and others. I can make friendships in under a minute. My positive conservative attitude attracts liberals like a magnet. It's amazing, when I speak as a conservative, everyone likes me. When I was a party-hardy liberal... I had no respect and others used me.

A most unusual angle
I'm surprised that Dennis chose this particular and unusual angle to write about. For most of the time I spent reading, I vascillated between "what's the point?" and "who cares?"

I am also surprised that there hasn't been far more public outrage about Vick's alleged activities. If he received only one-quarter of the public attention that Michael Moore received, I would be more satisfied. For a revered public sports figure to be so engaged is a major travesty. If he is found guilty, he should be stripped of all his money. He doesn't deserve the honor of being a professional athlete. I don't usually welcome media involvement, but Vick's case deserves great publicity. THESE are the kinds of professional athletes we elevate in this country and choose to make millionaires. Stupid us.

Lesson in Logic for Prager
The converse of (p implies q) is (q implies p). The converse of
(cruelty to animals implies cruelty to humans) is
(cruelty to humans implies cruelty to animals).

The converse is not (kindness to animals implies kindness to humans) as Prager suggests.

If we let p denote (cruelty to animals) and let q denote (cruelty to humans), then what
Prager is saying is that ((not p) implies (not q)) is the converse of (p implies q).

This is incorrect. It is important to point this out since Prager pretends to be an
intellectual person who reasons logically. And Prager frequently makes unsubstantiated
comments that others are not using reason. I think one of Prager's major problems is
that he does not reason clearly and logically. In my opinion Prager needs to review
fundamental principles of mathematical logic.

a couple of points
Had Peta not had a campaign called Holocaust on your plate comparing Holocaust victims to chickens consumed by Americans every year I don't know that Prager would have been so against them. How would you respond if say your mother was murdered and then someone said "so what, you ate a turkey at Thanksgiving?"

I rarely listen to liberal TV but when I do CNN does the same thing of pulling out far right wingers with ridiculous positions that the right wing does not take seriously and CNN holds them up as an example of how conservatives think, thereby polarizing their audience.

As for Ghandi, a little bit of skepticism is advised. Yes I know he is considered a saint. However he did not get along with his children and did not have a great relationship with his wife. His plan to separate Hindus from Muslims resulted in a million deaths. (Pakistan and Bangladesh are no older than Israel and yet no one calls for them to be dismantled as a solution to the ongoing violence of Muslims against Hindus.) Ghandi criticized the Jews for not being more pacifist when going to the gas chambers. So much for a sacred cow. This paragraph is sure to get Leftists screaming. Why is it that Ghandi is revered, but if Israel came up with a plan to move all the Muslims out of Israel they would be violently against the plan?












pcon-T

In my liberal (very liberal) Detroit... The lack of morals is amazing. Dogs are chained without water for days, both in blistering heat and freezing tempatures. The apathy toward suffering by liberals is hard to stomach.

I have personally freed dogs and taken cats to a better place. My brother literally broke into a neighbors home (a felony) to rescue a shepherd and several pups, who were left for over a week, locked in a home void of food and water.

Yes, Dennis is somewhat right, the liberals do a much better job at cruelty. Come live in a ghetto for several years and you see the true darkness of the left.

K and AnimalGirl
Awesome points and references. I agree that too much press is given to the extremes. If you take away their mic and their platform to spread their vile, then you take away their power.

It is in my opinion an overal problem with our media and the idea of "If it bleeds, it leads". Somehow we MUST change this and get back to serious balanced news and away from the entertainment and political spin machine news.

For example when talking about this story, all the good organizations need to be on the news talking about how we can realisticly help and prevent animal abuse. Or when the subject of Iraq comes on, lets hear about the good things as well as the bad. Or Global warming, show how some scientist see it as real while others do not. Or when Paris Hilton speaks... turn off the camera! If Rev Al speaks, dont cover it! When Peta makes some outragious statement, ignore them.

Cover the right stories about real news, present both sides fair and let us decide.

simple claptrap
who hired you?

agree with Prager
I usually turn the animal channel off because I can't stand it. I left it on a little bit last night and it showed neglected animals being brought to a HSUS animal hospital in NYC that treated them and mentioned that the charity is supported by donations. So much for the smear by a commenter further up.

I agree with Prager on this as on most issues, and with Charles Krauthammer. I am an animal lover. I consider that other animal lovers are a little bit weird. There is one in my neighborhood. She is a cold fish. I think she had an unloving mother.

Personally if Vick is found guilty, I think imprisonment is too kind. We humans are animals. What he did to those dogs should be done to him, being electrocuted, being thrown into ice baths, basically being treated like _hit. He should be told ahead of time that it is a learning experience for him so that he can meditate on it when he is curled up in a corner licking his wounds in a cage. Maybe after such an experience he can be welcomed back into the human race. Be glad I don't run the universe. For people who do cruelty to animals, so should it be done to them. And adults should teach their children that people take such behavior seriously. At Alcatraz the head of the prison used to strip prisoners of their human rights like the right to wear clothes, and then let them earn the rights back, once by one. Such for Vick.

I have avoided the media on Vick. Anything I know is in the amount of time it took to find the remote to turn it off. Vick has managed to pull the media down even further than it already is. Before they discussed bimbos, and missing women. Now they are cheerily and obsessively discussing methods of torturing dogs. Yes I have emailed the media and told them to stop, as well as turning off the TV.

My feelings do not extend to researchers.
I don't mind meat eaters.
I avoid situations and people that give rise to homicidal impulses. I leave it up to karma to give what is earned. As to what an appropriate penalty for people like Mengele should have been, I have no idea. Yes I do believe in the death penalty. I don't think it has to be absolutely painless. I think the level of pain that they gave their victims sets the standard.
I am very skeptical of nature photographers which is why I avoid magazines like the National Geographic and the nature channel.
Al Qaeda- no I do not think that they should be treated with calfskin gloves as their plans to behead people and their plans to sicken and kill 200,000 people or to blow up kill and maim perfectly nice people are carried out.


animalgirl wrote:
"Liberals are more likely to show compassion towards animals, so Prager must strip all virtue from this kindness and compassion so bolster the lie that liberals are all amoral twits."

Isn't it great that she'd got the handle on how most if not all liberals think and act, and of course, how most if not all conservatives do too? Of course she can throw around all the usual garbage about liberals with PETA and the vigilantism that goes on with breaking into universities to free animals from labs, but is that as much compassion as it is moral misguidedness, where they stupidly equate animals to humans, as with the supremely misguided "Holocaust on your Plate" PETA campaign?

No one champions treating animals decently more than I do. But animalgirl shouldn't dare pretend that liberals are the high and mighty ones and conservatives are troglodytes who care only about themselves.
________________________

When you think you're doing good for others but you're actually screwing things up and making them worse, that's liberalism.

To: Big Black Dog
And others, who may think Hitler was not a vegetarian. I will comment about this only in that I am currently reading a book called "The Bunker", by James P. O'Donnell, who immediately after the Russians took Berlin was among the first Americans at the Nazi Bunker, where Hitler and the surviving Nazi's stayed until Hitler's suicide, and later, interviewed all the surviving Nazi's who lived with Hitler in the Bunker in Berlin at the end of WWII. The person who knew his eating habits the best was the cook in the Bunker, Frau Manzialy, who told O'Donnell that while Hitler was a confirmed vegetarian in the early days of the Nazi movement, so as to prove to his followers that he didn't follow a regular diet like most people and thereby was above them, by the time he was in the Bunker in the last days of the war, he no longer practiced this type of diet and ate what everyone else did.

Wushil - How much have you given in the
last ten years to alleviate the suffering? How many computers have you had in the family household in the last 15 years? How many cars, and the miles on the one sold or traded in? What size of home do you have, by square footage?

WHAT RIGHT DO I HAVE TO ASKED SUCH A QUESTION. Normally none. But in your case, you requested such a request.

So I not only have the right, but the obligation.

Prager, very well written and
entertaining article. The proof is in all the negative comments, from those that profess the article to be a waste of time. Sure is a lot of words used, to defend their position.


Lon’s non sequitur…

“A similar failing can be seen in people who value fetuses over mothers?”

Huh??? Care to provide documentation, i.e., a specific example of what you’re referring too? At that, an example, other than a mother’s overriding sacrifice (given the rare instance that she might die giving birth) for her unborn child. After all, she has every right to choose the life of her child over her own.

PETA
Dennis, please don't forget who is giving credence to violent groups like PETA and Greenpeace. It is the public and media writers such as yourself who refuse to reward good behavior for fear of losing readership.

For every PETA and Greenpeace, there are literally hundreds of peaceful, kind, clever animal rights and environmental groups who feature "win / win" campaigns. But they will never have the status of PETA because no one writes about them.

In other words, these groups use sound scientific evidence to show the benefits of neutering, green living, keeping cats indoors etc. But obviously that's too boring for the Center for Consumer Freedom. They would rather take the hypocritical stand of doing the same thing PETA does: negative campaining and stereotyping (ie calling Vermont organic farmers "hippies").

The NRDC, Nature Canada, CPAWS, Being Caribou, The Wolverine Foundation, the SFASPCA, Alley Cat Allies, and so many others have progressive, intelligent campaigns that not only help animals but also our children and our communities.

It's a shame the media only chooses to write stories about tearing us apart.

Kery E L.W.R., C.V.T.

Here's a sterling example for you...
Any of you little bunny-humpers ever heard of Jerry Vlasak? No? Well let me enlighten you:

This FORMER TRAUMA SURGEON is now America's number one advocate of murdering research scientists, their families, and anyone who works with them in order to prevent experiments on mosquitos, rats, mice and other disease-carrying vermin.

He "loves animals" so much he wants to kill his fellow human beings, and not just the ones who directly do the experiments, but THEIR CHILDREN AND THE CHILDREN OF THEIR BUSINESS ASSOCIATES as well.

Because he's a darling of the Communist American press, he gets an automatic pass every time he solicits murder - and more than that, he usually gets applauded for his "dedication" to "animal rights".

This diseased psycho has TESTIFIED BEFORE CONGRESS that he advocates (and actively solicits and encourages) killing human beings to protect vermin, yet he's not in prison because his "cause" is "Politically Correct".

I'm not sure how much better an example than Mr. Vlasak anyone needs, but if you want more, do a little investigating into ALF and ELF's (failed because they're too stupid to build a working detonator)attempts to kill First Responders with gasoline bombs in California, Oregon and Washington.

You don't have to have a "vendetta" against PETA to understand these wingnuts are dangerous, and the people who agree with them are what Stalin described as "Useful Idiots".

Mostly right but with flaws
I seldom agree with Prager about much of anything, but his two main points seem to be correct. Actually enjoying cruielty to animals does indicate a psychology problem. And while kindness to animals can be a result of general kindness, it also can be a result of a misplaced antagonizm to people or at least a failure to appreciate what is special about people. A similar failing can be seen in people who value fetuses over mothers.

Prager does undercut his argument by spending so much time on the Nazi analogy which does more to make his argument look like a parody than it ddoes to support the argument. And the claim about extermism at the end seems pointless and unsupported. Most people are neither vegans nor torturers of animals, so how does the existence of these two groups show that man is naturally extremist?

Victoria Bauer – Sacred Cows:

You wrote, “.....I think it was Ghandi who said, and I paraphrase.....that you can judge a civilization by how it treats its most defenseless, and he was refering to the treatment of animals....

He wasn't and isn't alone in this thought; Lots of great men too numerous to list feel the same.”

For my part, I do not presume to know, whether or not Ghandi was referring “to the treatment of animals” as you allege. I do however; genuinely hope that he was alluding to humankind, and at that, the weak, the infirmed, the vulnerable and the myriad forgotten. You see, I believe fauna, not unlike flora, are on this earth for our (people’s) benefit. Not, mind you, that we are to be indiscriminant in how we benefit from them. The Bible even cautions in Proverbs 12:10, “The godly care for their animals, but the wicked are always cruel.”

Although Ghandi achieved greatness in his own right, I nonetheless, find my own tastes more closely aligned to Mark Twain (another great man) who said, “Sacred cows make the best hamburger.”

In other words, while I find the atrocities attributed to Michael Vick reprehensible, people who elevate animals to human value or greater, in my estimation, are merely extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum. Neither of which, will dissuade me from throwing a steak on the grille this weekend.


let's think about this
Prager claims that cruelty toward animals indicates cruelty toward human beings. He also claims that kindness toward animals indicates cruelty toward human beings. So no matter how you treat animals, it is an indication of your cruelty toward human beings. Brilliant!

Many animal rights activists are...
... indeed like Nazis. Well more like terrorists than Nazis.

Um,...okay...
A person who is cruel to animals is more likely to be cruel to people.
- Check.

A person who is kind to animals is NOT NECESSARILY going to be kind to people.
- Check.

And Dennis felt the need to warn us about this because..... we were in danger of falling prey to the machiavellian schemes of those who are kind to animals?

I kept hoping this one was going somewhere.

- MuscleDaddy


The real world
is going to a slaughter house or a chicken farm, or any industrial butchery used to feed the masses. Most of us are protected from ever seeing the processing required to feed the world. The other side is that we as americans, unless we have actually traveled to other cultures, which very few ever do, do not realize what humans consume.

The bottom line is that humans will eat anything which won't poisen them to survive. I mean anything, including each other in some cultures or in a need to survive.

rocker...
You can't see the link, because Dennis didn't draw a link. He didn't call Vick a Nazi, or anything like it. His thesis was that being nice to animals doesn't guarantee being nice to humans. Nor did he call PETA advocates Nazis.

But I suppose hatred will allow you to read anything you like into Dennis' article.

Big Black Dod writes;
"...I often am more moved by the suffering of Animals than I am by people, because people bring misery on themselves and each other, while animals are at the mercey of people who use them for labor, for sport, for fighting, for entertainment, for food..."

Isn't that sentiment rather anti-Darwinistic? Shouldn't those animals evolve to overcome the stated environmental stressors?

i get the point
I get the point of this column (as summarized nicely by Shells) but Praeger really isn't a very good writer. I agree with Wushih that he would have made a more compelling argument by pointing to actual research studies rather than his unscientific observations of PETA. My main complaint, however, is the last section. He states that human beings are extremists by nature but then gives the two extreme examples of either animaly cruelty or extreme concern. I find it hard to believe (and, therefore, hard to take Praeger seriously) that most people fall into one of those two categories regarding the treatment of animals. I would guess that most people that eat meat or wear leather want the animals to be treated in a not cruel and painful manner. Also, he didn't really prove that people that are kind to other humans tend to be kind to animals; he merely stated that as fact. Overall, a weak and kind of pointless column.


Kindness to fetuses...
Kindness to fetuses does not lead to kindness. One could employ Prager's misuse of logic to argue that people who are kind to fetuses can also be violent toward people.


Vick / Dog fighting
It was commented that Dennis is wrong and Robert Payne is widely considered to be Hitler’s definitive biographer. (among other rediculous comments)
So! What! do you beleive everything you read? Even he (Robert)can be wrong. Dog Fighting is wrong.
Even Jack the Ripper must have been nice for a moment, to lure. (I usually say this to teens that say "but, he is such a nice guy".)
I Praise God for people like Dennis Prager who will have the courage to make people aware of what is going on right here in the U.S. of A. Dog fighting is the worst of cancers and should be cut out!!
I wish for the people who slam DP to use the same energy to fight against dog fighting.



The innocent.
While I am for hunting, meat, and such... I am 110% being cruel to those animals, making them suffer out of "fun", or the mistreatment of any living thing... especially the innocent.

The more I think about it, the more I have come to understand that my opinion is based upon the intelligence capibility and innocence of the being in question be it animal or human.

Dogs, cats, Dolphins are for the most part smart and loving animals that are innocent to our world. We take care of them and they take care of us. Few things make me as angry as somebody who abuses these unconditionally loving animals for any reason.

Children and babies also are intelligent (yes even those who are mentally handicap) and people who hurt or abuse such loving and intelligent beings deserve the worst. Obviously hurting people is much worse than hurting an animal. However this is why any form of child abuse or the murder of a child (Abortion) is wrong.

wushih, if he has an ax to grind
against PETA, what better target than a group of sanctimonious nitwits that presume to tell everyone else how to feel and act. One can love animals and hate PETA without hating all humans. The violence perpetrated by PETA members are as hypocritical as they are illegal. It should be labeled a terrorist organization at the very least.

BBD
Not absolute proof but multiple claims by other than right wingers

http://veg.ca/content/view/171/113/

http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/

The likely truth is that he was put on a vegan diet by his doctor's but did not spend his whole life that way. Vegetarians are quick to deny his diet for fear of guilt by association, whether or not that ever crossed the mind of the person claiming Hitler was Vegan.


Prager's Ideological Ax
Prager has an ideological ax to grind . . . against PETA. If he wanted to make a case that kind treatment to animals does not necessarily lead to kind treatment to other humans, he could have cited recent psychological studies supporting his argument, if they exist. He certainly could have written about how Americans and Europeans collectively spend over 17 billion dollars a year on pet food alone while over 50,000 human beings die of malnutrition and poverty related causes every day, according to the US economic census from 1997. Clearly, there are plenty of people who believe animals, specifically "cute" ones like cats and dogs, are superior to certain humans and deserve better treatment.

New agers have a lot in common..
with the Nazis--more than just VW bugs. For example they planned to depopulate a great swath of Eastern Europe and turn it into a nature preserve. Nazism embraced, environmentalism, occult mysticism, vegitarianism, anti-smoking, and other stuff I can't remember right now. Oh yeah, Goring was a drug user.

Dennis?
Do you feel like your mommy and daddy treated your pets better than you?

Treatment of defenseless reflect on a cu
.....I think it was Ghandi who said, and I paraphrase.....that you can judge a civilization by how it treats its most defenseless, and he was refering to the treatment of animals....

He wasn't and isn't alone in this thought; Lots of great men too numerous to list feel the same.

He has a good point
Although the naysayers prefer saying "nay" to anything Mr. Prager (apologies if the wrong honorific) writes, the column's central point about "those who are kind to animals are not necessarily kind to other humans" is quite true. Take the California case about 20 years ago of a mother killed trying to save her kids from a cougar. The cougar was hunted down and shot. Trust funds were set up for both the human kids and the cougar cubs left behind, and the cougars received 3 times as much as the humans.

The case also applies where expertise in one field is assumed to carry over to unrelated fields. The best case for this I can think of is the Canadian zoologist (and environmental activist) David Suzuki who is now trying to lead the global warming bandwagon.

To The Trolls:
The point of this article, which was very wonderfully stated, is that we can agree that people who are prone to being cruel to animals are more than likely cruel to people. However, just because a person happens to be kind and a champion to our four legged friends, does not automatically equate them as a person who is kind and a champion to the human race.

Get it? Or regardless of what Prager happens to say, you just tout it simply because you dislike anyone who is a conservative, a Jew, and articulate?


Good Article
I think it's scary how many people in this world equate animals with people; indeed, there are many who feel animals are better/of more value than humans! The author is absolutely correct - animals should be treated well and taken care of in a loving, humane fashion. But nonetheless, humans have the distinction of reason and, dare I say it? being created in God's image. It's frightening how many people put animals on a pedestal yet feel that human beings are worthless.

LizBent

Please read the article, not just respond to single sentences.


Mr. Prager said ", I should make it clear that no one is making the absurd argument that animal rights activists are likely to be Nazis. "

End of lesson

Hateful Critics
It never ceases to amaze me that people who hate conservative editorial writers will never the less read those authors religiously just so they may berate them. Talk about someone who needs to get a life!!

I never fail to read the Rabbi...
...because of insights such as the one he just expounded on.But don't get me started on posters such as booboolane.Such an ignoramus!Nothing whatsoever intelligent to say himself,I would assume he would not miss an article by Dennis Prager in order to demostrate his ignorance.

And by the way, Mr Prager, I have 20 years in the Infantry and I will gladly donate of those years to you for credit if you will only continue writing.And be consoled by the fact that Ben Franlin,Thomas Jefferson,John Adams,Abraham Lincoln,Woodrow Wilson,Franklin Roosevelt,and the great Ronald Reagan,had no military expierience either,and they fought some pretty good wars for us.But I am trying to figure out what wars the great booboolane fought for us.I think it is going to take me awhile.

booboolane
What possible connection with Prager's column is his alleged military history? Unless you have the actual selective service records, you are nothing but a rumor monger. Cruel inuendo in the guise of column criticism is what it is. In fact, the recent revelations about dog fighting in the NFL is an entirely appropriate comment subject by Prager, especially with the protests being "staged" by PETA. All you have to understand about these criminals is see the hate in the faces of these human misfits to know their true intent.

The point of this article is
That Nazism is the foundations of PeTA and HSUS.

By the way, HSUS does not have or run a single animal shelter.

How interesting
I was not aware that the Nazis were concerned about cruelty to animals. In my own unscientific observations I have known a handful of people who treated animals like children but could be extremely cold and/or cruel to even those people deserving of their affection.
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