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Sunday, June 03, 2007
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Immigration Policy Confronts Reality
by Steve Chapman
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Conservatism, declared George Will recently, "is realism: about human nature and government's competence." It requires accepting human beings as they are, not as we wish they were, and recognizing the limited capacity of government to transform the world for the better. But in the immigration debate, many conservatives are embracing policies that, by this standard, are anything but conservative.

Just as children are nature's way of mocking their parents' best intentions, illegal immigration is one of those phenomena that show the ineffectuality of laws in impeding humans from pursuing their interests. It would be nice if we could lay down lines on a map and expect people to stay on one side or the other. But when forces bigger than geography are at work, the decrees of nations often prove useless.

Mexicans and Guatemalans and other illegal immigrants come here out of an elemental and healthy desire to improve their lot. Once they arrive, they get willing cooperation from Americans who find these foreigners can also enhance our welfare.

Both illegals and natives gain something from this movement of people. To suppose that policies emanating from Washington can overcome these drives is like assuming that laws against sodomy can neutralize libidos.

Conservatives need no instruction on the value of market mechanisms in creating wealth. But the continuing illegal flow of people into this country, which so many conservatives decry, is a product of those mechanisms.

If there are no jobs in Town A and lots of them in Town B, many residents of A will decamp for B. The same holds for countries. Mexicans making $15 a day have a huge incentive to go where they can make $15 an hour. Like water rolling downhill, they are naturally drawn to places where they will be better off.

Of course, we often alter or stop the flow of rivers by damming them. But damming people is harder, since they, unlike H20, have the means and the motive to outwit such efforts. Thus the paradox discovered by Princeton sociologist Douglas Massey: As we have increased our efforts to seal the Mexican border, migrants have been diverted to remote areas that are harder to patrol, so much so that the rate of apprehension has actually fallen.

Even if the border could miraculously be made airtight against trespassers, it would do nothing to stop foreigners from coming on tourist or student visas and then staying on after they are supposed to leave. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, as many as 45 percent of the foreigners here illegally arrived with the blessing of the law. Build a 2,000-mile fence, and more will come that way.

Hardliners think the way to get rid of illegal immigrants is to get rid of the jobs they fill. In the Senate bill endorsed by President Bush, advocates of tougher enforcement got a new system for employers to verify that their workers are entitled to be here. Anyone newly hired (and, in time, anyone with a job) would have to pass a check of federal databases.

It's a fine idea in theory, but note that it requires government authorization for every employment decision in a large, dynamic economy, an approach that is just slightly at odds with the free market. It also presumes a level of efficiency that conservatives do not usually expect of government.

In practice, as a small-scale pilot program begun in 1997, the verification system has proven fallible. Randel Johnson, vice president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, recently testified before Congress that the databases "are not always up-to-date, there is a high error rate in determining work authorization, and the program is incapable of capturing identity fraud." The Society for Human Resource Management estimates the new system will increase the administrative burden on employers tenfold.

Those who endorse a vigorous immigration crackdown are upholding a sound conservative idea -- namely, the rule of law. But for law to effectively rule, it has to accommodate reality. Believing that immigration enforcement can wall us off from people who are prepared to endure huge sacrifices to come here is more in the realm of dreams.

Any benefit a new law can achieve is bound to be modest and incremental, discouraging some illegals from coming, diverting others into legal channels and having no effect on others. Our leaders are better off trying for small improvements than insisting on grand solutions. In this and most other spheres of government endeavor, conservatives should know, it's wise not to expect too much.

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Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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You are right.....
I don't expect too much because for two decades and beyond we got far too little.

Mr.Chapman you are sounding like we can never decrease the flow of illegals just because it may be difficult.

Well it may be difficult to keep our borders solid but it will be even harder to pay for the illegals benefits they are already sucking out of our economy.

You get one check from me because I am not going into tax servitude willingly.

Chapman OLd Boy
How about if we just take a stab at enforcing the law and deprting the illegals ??? We can never get rid of all of them but we can sure get rid of quite a few.
Did you ever hear of the word sovereigny ? Most other countries in the world have it so why can't the U.S.

more apologia for ILLEGALS
Hey, pal-- the solution to the ILLEGAL invasion is NOT to admit defeat-- it is to insist that we change course and enforce our laws before it becomes too late to save America! Some concrete ideas are in my concurrent post below:
_______________________________________________
I have now ineluctably concluded that Presidente Jorge is indubitably TRULY dense! Otherwise there is NO WAY he could prattle some of the silly platitudes about compassion and caring. If we euphemistically call ILLEGAL alien invaders, job thieves, and welfare/tax cheats "undocumented workers," why not call armed robbers who break into our homes and harm us "unexpected guests for dinner"?!

I SHOULD have realized that Jorge was the embodiment of the Peter Principle back in those debates when he stumbled like a drunk who had wandered in off the street, but I didn't want to believe that he was all we had to counter the traitor, do-nothing, equivocating windbag, gigolo, windsurfer with the changed surname.

I voted for Presidente Jorge anyway; all we got to the positive were tax cuts and court appointments, but the REST has been DISASTROUS! [See the neoCON wrong war in the wrong place, No Bureaucrat Left Behind, Rx Care For Seniors (who had no need), drunken sailor spending, ineptitude on S.S., Texas mafia cronyism.]

Middle America MUST get engaged ASAP!!! You can contact your people in Congress (start with your 2 Senators) right here at their official contact addresses-- it is EASY... just a few clicks:
______________________________________________

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Heck, contact LOTS of them in Congress!!!
NOW is the time for all good Americans to speak out-- while there is still an America to save!

As information, here is my letter I have been sending to Congress... feel free to borrow from it as you wish!

[note: credit is owed to Congressman Ron Paul for the basis of the outline below.]
_____________________________________________

Dear Senator xxxxxxx:

While we agree with you philosophically on some key issues, there is one issue where we DISAGREE PROFOUNDLY: your current support of ILLEGAL aliens by favoring a path to citizenship. We believe that there is a lot of misinformation about what Middle America thinks about immigration reform as suggested by detailed polling here:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20530

We know that the Senate is poised to debate Immigration reform and would like to share our summary thoughts. We understand the pressures you face and hope that you will not cave in to the pressures of the special interests when the very
socio-economic future of America is at stake. We agree with the following overview goals:

We MUST secure our borders NOW. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. Potential terrorists can dance across our soft underbelly border
or overstay visas.

1. We should FIRST AND FOREMOST physically secure our borders. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country BEFORE we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals... no more Simpson-Mazzoli Scamnesty shell game "reforms." Only willful neglect by our government could have allowed this ILLEGAL alien crisis to devolve. Quisling "Presidente Jorge" has egregiously violated his oath of office to defend and protect our borders; this is particularly nonfeasance in the wake of 9/11 when we know that militant Islamics have crossed our southern border posing as hispanics.

2. ENFORCE VISA RULES. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays a visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired
visas. A tamper-proof I.D. may be necessary for all NON-citizens to function while VISITING America TEMPORARILY-- to work, get a license, rent an apartment, go to college, seek emergency assistance, pass go, etc.

3. NO AMNESTY-- PERIOD!!! Estimates suggest that 12 to 20 million people are already in our country ILLEGALLY. Border crashing is only the first of what become lives of serial lawbreaking. There should be NO PATH TO CITIZENSHIP for those who have been here ILLEGALLY. It is egregious to speak of ILLEGALS paying a token fine when each ILLEGAL alien household is costing taxpayers $22k annually in deficit taxes versus social services used alone (Heritage). Furthermore, it is insulting to the many who play by the rules to emigrate to America to give ILLEGAL aliens a get out of jail free card.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTUyZjY3NzExYjIxODU0NmVmYWE4MTAxNTZlOWJkNDk=

4. NO WELFARE for ILLEGAL aliens-- PERIOD. America has welcomed LEGAL immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. BUT taxpayers should not pay for ILLEGAL immigrants who decimate hospitals, schools, and social services, and pervade illegitimacy, crime, drugs, gangs, dropout rates, and ethnocentric barrio balkanization. Public financial assistance for higher education for non-citizens should be prohibited; it is simply another form of welfare at the expense of citizen taxpayers and takes away funds from deserving Americans with need.

5. End birthright citizenship. As long as ILLEGAL aliens know that their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong. We need to reinterpret the 14th Amendment as it was intended... it could not have anticipated the current ILLEGAL invasion crisis.

6. Pass TRUE immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. Current reform proposals would allow 60-100 million more immigrants, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is INSANITY. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the SAME rules and waiting periods.

We should emphasize EDUCATED, SKILLED immigrants who can make positive contributions, NOT chain migration of those who become net users of government services-- like MOST ILLEGAL aliens. America CANNOT be the lifeboat to all of the world's less fortunate, lest the boat founder for all.

Thank you for considering our views, and thank you for your service to America. America is watching with GREAT interest what you all do in Washington with regard to this critical issue, which will determine the very future of America.

Reality?
Reality is these people broke into our country. The American people didn't invite them. They may come to improve their lives...so what? Improving the lives of foreign nationals is not our responsibility. But it's become our burden.

I want to improve MY life....your house is nicer than mine. Is it OK for me to break into your house and demand that you feed me and let me stay permanently? And if I do...will you then give me the deed to your house? No, because it's called breaking and entering...no matter how needy I am. And B&E is against the law, as is sneaking into the country illegally. If the politicians refuse to enforce the laws they themselves passed then they are just as guilty.

We are sick of renegades Congressmen, who don't have to live with the consequences of their really bad ideas, telling law-abiding taxpaying American citizens what is best for us. We KNOW what is best for us....to protect our nation, secure our borders, to stop illegal immigration and to oust ALL of these morons in Congress as soon as possible. Kennedy, Kyl, Graham, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, the whole stinking lot of the losers. Including the President and his insults.

Presidente Jorge's nonfeasance
The federal govt. has WILLFULLY created this mess because of quisling nonfeasance as called for by Presidente Jorge. He is like the police inspector in Casablanca who suddenly declares like Brer Rabbit-- I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED! to see that 20 million aliens have crept in here!

Presidente Jorge and his fellow quislings have EARNED the mistrust of Middle America vis-a-vis their unwillingness to stanch the flow of ILLEGAL aliens.

Middle America MUST shout LOUDLY, stop Scamnesty, and throw the bums in office out. There are 50 million MORE disadvantaged Mexicans ALONE who say they hope to come on up and get on the gravy train... they are awaiting the messages we send.
_______________________________________________

speaking truth to power--
Have you noticed how many columnists are speaking out against the BS served up by the apologists for ILLEGAL aliens, speaking truth to the power of the Conspiracy Of Evil? (ILLEGAL employers; scandal-ridden Catholic leaders seeking replacement contributors; open borders, globalists seeking unfettered cheap labor; the weird, anti-America, multicultural, PC crowd; leftists seeking a permanent entitlement Big Brother government).

They say that Presidente Jorge and many in the Senate are dumbfounded that Middle America is so irate about the pending Scamnesty. [Then again, it does not take much to perplex Dubya!] The truth is that the remote "elites" see the ILLEGAL invasion in theoretical terms. The massive, monied organized lobbies they hear most from make them imagine that it is a sure thing that we should naturalize 15-20 million (who would turn into 60-100 million just like them soon enough) undereducated, indigent, ethnocentric, "cheap" laborers... that America "must have them to do all of those jobs Americans won't do." THEIR children do not go to schools enervated by the ILLEGAL invaders... the rich LIKE their cheap ILLEGAL help nodding deferentially as they tend their lawns and mow the fairways at their private clubs as the "elites" walk by to climb into their Mercedes SUV's.

But Middle America in its straightforward wisdom sees through the shell game... it realizes that the teeming masses of uneducated, indigent ILLEGAL alien laborers are really only benefiting a few business owners (who do NOT pass on the "savings") at the unbridled expense of ALL... that the downside of letting them all naturalize here will be CATASTROPHIC... that Americans would be MUCH BETTER OFF if employers simply paid a bit more to hire Americans-- like they always have before. Indeed, the jobs at Armour, etc., are quickly filled by Americans after rare raids clear out infestations of ILLEGALS.

Amazingly, even the new LIBERAL-commissioned CBC/TIMES poll just said that Americans oppose key goals of apologists for ILLEGAL aliens:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/25/us/25poll.html?pagewanted=print

poll excerpts:
"Most of those polled agreed that illegal immigrants should eventually be allowed to APPLY to become American citizens. BUT 59 percent said illegal immigrants should be CONSIDERED for citizenship ONLY AFTER legal immigrants who have played by the rules." [Ergo, no path to amnesty!]

"In the poll, 75 PERCENT of those who responded favored TOUGHER PENALTIES FOR EMPLOYERS of illegal workers, and 82 PERCENT said the federal government should DO MORE TO REINFORCE THE BORDER."

"Among those polled, a majority of 51 percent favored overhauling the American immigration system to make it more attuned to economic demands, GIVING PRIORITY TO JOB SKILLS AND EDUCATIONAL ACCOMPLISHMENT. Only 34 percent said that immigrants with family ties in the United States should take precedence."
_______________________________________________

Middle America reads the dire warnings of Heritage about the TRUE all-in costs and gets righteously indignant against the weird Conspiracy Of Evil which attempts lamely to brand us "racist" and "zenophobic" for common sense reckonings that america CANNOT absorb masses of the undereducated poor without morphing into what those poor people are trying to flea from. SEE HERITAGE SUMMARY HERE:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm

Comprende espanol, amigos?

Keep booing Miss America, "amigos"-- it speaks volumes!
_______________________________________________

CONTACT YOUR PEOPLE IN CONGRESS ASAP FOLKS.... TELL THEM YOU WANT TO STOP SCAMNESTY... AMERICA IS TOO IMPORTANT AND SPECIAL TO ALLOW IT TO DEVOLVE INTO A THIRD WORLD WELFARE STATE... IT IS EASY TO REACH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS RIGHT HERE:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Bookmark it and contact them often! If you want subject specific messages already prepared that you can fax/e-mail, go here (a GREAT site):

http://www.numbersusa.com/actionbuffet

Reality on Immigration
I don't hold to this rhetoric that things have gotten too far to do anything about illegal immigration. That's a defeatist attitude and it's unacceptable. If we can attempt to change Iraq, we can sure change America.

If you elitists in Washington can't enforce the laws of this country, then we'll vote in others who will.

Go after employers hiring illegals. Fine them heavy and put repeat offenders in jail! Without jobs, there's no reason for illegals to stay. They will leave on their own. If they don't, deport them.

Get that wall built and keep your globalist agenda out of our economy! I say no to the NAU!
We didn't elect you to cater to corporate greed! You're there for us! If you're not for us, you're against us!

We do know what's right for America, President Bush. And we used to think it was you. Remember this, I'm a Conservative first and a Republican last. Thanks to you the Independents just won another member!

Chapman Wants 1 Billion By 2050
Look, Chapman. We don't need a lecture from you on the basics of market forces. We understand market forces. The truth is that enforcement HASN'T been tried. For political reasons it's been actively resisted at all levels of our government- starting at the top.
New Zealand has strict immigration rules that are enforced.
So does Autralia.
So does Switzerland.
Try sneaking a pregnant woman into those countries to have an anchor baby and then bringing the whole family in to take advantage of their generous social programs. You won't have much success. Why? Because their public officials actually possess a sense of responsibility to perform the duties for which they were hired. AND because they value the unique culture and traditions that define their countries.

Enforcement WILL work. Bush, Kyle, Kennedy and Chapman are afraid to give Americans the chance to see it.

This is the LAST chapman article I will
EVER READ.

You are WRONG. Eisenhower could deport how many way back in the 1950s? Many people didn't even know about it - at the time. HE JUST DID IT!

With the technology we now have and the better roads, etc - it should be easy enough.

BUT IF WE DON'T HAVE A FENCE, how do we KEEP THEM OUT? That's why I have always said, build the **** fence! Then, start enforcing our laws.

I don't give a royal rip WHY they come - they are NOT wanted, or needed. GO HOME!

Mr. Chapman ARE YOU NUTS?!!
for law to effectively rule, ...
IT MUST BE ENFORCED!!!!!

Chapman
Needs to post this crud on WaPo with the rest of the leftys. Have you guys seen what they are saying about the JFK plot?

Why stop at illegal immigration?
So, if we shouldn't bother creating/enforcing immigration law because people will just break it anyway, what other (currently illegal) behavior should we ignore? Murder? Theft? Tax evasion? Have we ever had a law on the books that was followed absolutely?

Maybe we should just disband the DoJ. And all state and local law enforcement. No need for an FDA since companies are always trying to find a way around all those regulations. Same for the EPA. Oh, and my favorite, say by-by to the IRS. And let's end the Visa program altogether and let people go and go at will because after all, if 20 million illegal aliens are good for the economy, think what we can do with another 700, 800, maybe even an additional billion or two.

Hey, looks like we won't need a government at all. Long live anarchy!

Chapman and Illegals
Steve Chapman is often right in his comments, but on this he is certainly wrong! Illegals find it much easier to come to the US than to work for the reforms in their own country that are needed to make it a land of opportunity.

Our government's unwillingness to enforce our laws, to build fences, to find (in schools, hospitals, jails) the illegals and deport them is the problem. The benefits hanging out there for them to take are like bananas to monkeys -- irresistable.

In addition, our Christian leaders seem to think that we in the US are obliged to accept this invasion and welcome "the stranger" (if only it were one stranger and not millions and millions pushing us aside). Forget the cost that the middle class pays while bearing the burden of making this country work; we're supposed to smile and hand them the knives to cut our throats.

NO THANK YOU!!!

If Mr. Chapman is right,
we need to fire all the border guards and customs agents, and reconcile ourselves to "reality". I wonder if he applies that same logic to, say, drug smugglers.

Is this article just a con
by Chapman to get his article read?

As for his claim that even if we stopped illegals from crossing the border, that we would still have a problem with those who enter on student visas, well, that's just a good reason to end student visas.

here's another BIG LIE testament
How stupid can one person be to put such bunk into print and attach their name to it, forever to invite ridicule?
Has this author ever studied the history of the human race he would dare to comment upon? Populations have been controlled throughout history; people have been kept in and people have been kept out of respective national borders. This guy is just another who desires the end of "nations" and attempts to rationalize in support of same.
Does ANYONE honestly believe that had the US government, with all of its resources, actually enforced the sovereignty of its international borders hour by hour, day by day, year by year, AS PROMISED THE US PUBLIC, after the last BIG AMNESTY that we'd have an "ILLEGALS" problem today; the arguements of the "comprehensive" supporters is mind-boggling.
Drying up the jobs "ILLEGALS" come for wouldn't discourage them? HA! I'm not saying fail to meet the necessities of needed employment either; it would not be difficult to expedite some LEGAL IMMIGRATION if needed (which I have been told is about a $10,000 process for the the immigrant, and what is the paltry amount of this "payment plan" penalty Teddy has agreed to assess those who jumped the line and came here in violation of our laws?), or even institute a TRUE migrant/TEMPORARY worker program, and let's let the employers needing this labor apply for it, supervise it, and be penalized appropriately if they "loose" any bodies to those horrible "shadows" along the way of making their revenues!
Have the Federal government oversea anything properly and cost efficiently? HAHAHAHA!!!! They can't handle what they've, in many cases unconsitutionally, legislated for their fingers and those of their minions to dabble in now!
A 2,000 mile fence wouldn't not stop the flow? Well, it would never have been intended to stop the flow, but it sure would lessen it and coupled with intelligent actions on other fronts in this exercise, it would be a plus....NO DOUBTS ON THAT. Can't build it? Through foreign aid we are, in effect, building Israel's. Isn't the DEFENSE of our borders every bit as important in the "war on terror" as defending the sovereign borders of Iraq? Maybe we should keep some of that "Iraq reconstruction" money for our own reconstruction needs?
Maybe it is impossible to deport 12 million people from our midst; it certainly is a popular line with Bush and the AMNESTY crowd, but then they are the only idiots who evidently believe that anyone ever thought 12 million would be deported tomorrow. This 12 million lawbreakers didn't get into the USA overnight, and everyone I know understands and believes they COULD be deported over the same number of years it took for our ineffective government to have allowed their ILLEGAL entry! Much Quicker would be my guess.
You want to talk stupid arguements; look no further than those of the AMNESTY crowd, lead by Jorge Bush, who DOES need to be IMPEACHED, and I say that as a dumb Republican-leaning dope who voted for him three times...once as Gov of Texas!

President Bush and Congress
have clearly lost their way. The Presidency and Congress is in disarray and disgrace and about to sink our nation....UNLESS........we get off our asses and inundate Congress with protest messages every day next week....2008 is too late.......... here's the site you need http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/ to find anything (phone/fax numbers etc) you need for your Senator or any other Senators....too late for letters and email is not effective.......Congress must hear our voices on the phone or through the faxes.

There's a toll free number 866-272-6622 to call the Capitol Switchboard....can also use Capitol Switchboard: (202)-224-3121 When the operator answers, ask for the Senate office you want to contact....simple as that. Inform whomever you speak with to record your "resounding "no" on the Senate Immigration Bill......

When is it appropriate to stand up and be counted?? After the damage is done and try to correct it, or go on the offensive before the bastards have a chance to inflict their wounds unchallenged?? The Illegal Amnesty Bill is the first fatal blow to American freedom.....you have been warned.

You decide........ as for me I won't stand by and allow the betraying, self-serving, greedy, un-American political stooges to sell out our great Nation that has been purchased with so much blood and life..........

Time to take a stand.........freedom is the only choice..........it may take more blood..........


IMO: Two actions that will work
Remove most of the motivation to come - and a lot of illegals will go home or not come in the first place.

1. Eliminate anchor babies.

2. Jail or fine a few of employers who are hiring illegals or paying under the table to the point where they are put out of business. Jobs will dry up.

In my opinion,just these two things will make a big difference in illegal traffic. Border control will slow to a more managable level, though it will still require considerable effort.

We may have to adjust to a drop in purchasing power due to increased labor costs, but I think it is the price we have to pay for **secure and controllable** borders. The economy will eventually adjust to the situation.

Saxby vs. Cardwell in 08

Do you think more candidates will start declaring against lawmakers like Saxby Chambliss for selling us out on immigration? With Saxby’s voting record on spending, trade and immigration I think he is in trouble if the democrats back the right candidate!

AJC-On Friday, Dale Cardwell ended an 11-year stint as an investigative reporter at WSB-TV.

On Saturday, he became a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, looking to knock off Republican incumbent Saxby Chambliss.

Cardwell said he will run against what he calls the daily, debilitating corruption of Washington, and promises to eschew money from special interest groups and political action committees.

The first issue he mentioned to us was the immigration reform bill now before the U.S. Senate, and hammered out with the assistance of both Chambliss and Johnny Isakson.
Cardwell called it an “amnesty” bill that’s aimed at satisfying corporate interests. “Georgia has to be freed from this illegal invasion that’s holding down salaries,” he said.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/saxby-vs-cardwell-in-08


NO FENCE, 'CAUSE UNION -COMMMMIES
Chapman, you cannot be that stupid - tell us why are you trying to deceive us?
Everybody knows why amnesty is wrong, except you and Medved... Do you guys smoke together??

......Worst of all is that neither party has any intention of dealing with border security...
...But this merely is an old trick that the Congress often uses in order to implement otherwise unacceptable legislation. When the time comes to fund the border enforcement provisions, no monies will be provided. By C.G. Adamo

CHAPMAN - read from a good Senator
Sen. ROHRABACHER: Madam Speaker, a tsunami of illegal aliens is sweeping into our country, crowding our classrooms, closing our hospital emergency rooms, unleashing violent crime, and driving down wages. This is not theory. It is a harsh, threatening reality borne out not by numerous academic studies, but by the life experiences of the American families from California to Georgia and from Iowa to New Jersey. Our middle class is being destroyed. Our communities are not safe. Our social service infrastructure is collapsing. And, yes, it has everything to do with illegal immigration, illegal immigration which is out of control. And year after year, while our schools deteriorate and our jails fill and our hospital emergency rooms shut down, the elite in this country turns a blind eye to the disaster that is befalling the rest of us, their fellow Americans. The elites obscure the issue and maneuver to keep in place policies that reward illegal immigrants with jobs and benefits, and now, of course, being rewarded with citizenship.

This country, the upper class says, can’t function without cheap labor. Well, cheap to the captains of industry and the political elite, but painfully expensive to America’s middle class. It’s our kids whose education is being diminished, our families who are paying thousands more in health insurance to make up for the hospital costs of giving free service to illegals. It’s our neighborhoods who suffer from crime perpetuated by criminals transported here from other countries. And, yes, our livelihoods are being dragged down as wages are depressed and anchored down by a constant influx of immigrants, mostly illegal, some with H1B visas, willing to work at a pittance. Big business, with its hold on the GOP, in an unholy alliance with the liberal left coalition that controls the Democratic Party, have been responsible for this invasion of our country, this attack on the well-being of our people. This coalition gives the jobs and passes out the benefits that lured tens of millions of illegals to our country. It’s no accident. This predicament was predictable. It’s been over 20 years of bad policy in the making. If you give jobs and benefits, the masses of people over there will do anything to get over here. And that’s what we’ve been doing. Give it and they will come. Surprise, surprise. Now the out-of-touch elite has introduced yet another piece of legislation, this so-called comprehensive reform bill that they claim will fix our illegal immigration crisis once and for all. Of course, this is a crisis they created. They are trumpeting the supposedly new enforcement measures and security measures that will be initiated in this bill, the border fence, new agents, new employer sanctions, if only we will swallow hard and give amnesty to those law-breakers who are already here.

Like Lucy holding out the football for Charlie Brown to kick, the bill is yet another effort to trick us. It’s an illusion, a scam that will make things worse, not better. The Senate legislation now being touted by Senator KENNEDY and a few Republican Senators immediately legalizes the status of 15 to 20 million illegals, while offering more border control, yes, fences and Border Patrol agents and such, as sweeteners aimed at getting us to accept this deal. But we’ve already passed legislation addressing border security. It’s already into law. It’s already against the law, for example, to hire illegals. We’ve already mandated a stronger fence and more Border Patrol agents. So, in reality, this legislation isn’t about those other things which they’re trying to get us to support the legislation about; this is only about legalizing the status of 15 to 20 million illegals and then finding new ways to get more immigrants into our country. It has nothing to do with controlling the flow of illegals and controlling the flow of immigrants into our country, as much as it is expanding the number of immigrants, legal and illegal, coming into our country.

In such situations as we find ourselves in today with this legislation, it’s fashionable on Capitol Hill to say ‘‘the devil is in the details’’. And this bill has enough demons to open up a whole new level of hell. Let’s start, first and foremost, with the most obvious lie, the claim that this bill does not give amnesty to illegal aliens. President Bush has done great damage to his credibility by playing such word games. My friends, the first thing this bill does is legalize 15 to 20 million people who now illegally reside in our country. I don’t care what the President calls it, it immediately legalizes the status of millions who are here illegally. Under the proposed legislation, this amnesty, and that’s exactly what it is, is now called a probationary Z visa. Upon passage of this bill, every illegal alien who can claim they were here in the United States by January 1 of 2007 can apply for a probationary Z visa that grants them immediate legal status to be in the United States.

Listen carefully. Immediately upon this bill’s passage, there is no waiting for triggers or clarification or bureaucratic benchmarks, their status is immediately legalized. It is very straightforward. These probationary visas are available immediately upon the passage of this bill, 15 or 20 million illegals immediately legalized in their status here. What message does this send to the 100 million or so people who are waiting overseas? The 15 to 20 million newly legalized immigrants will be quickly followed by 50 to 100 million more illegals flooding our system beyond the point of return. If we let that happen, this will be a catastrophic event of historic proportions. More importantly, for the American people, it will be a calamity for their communities and for their families. According to this so-called immigration reform bill, how does an illegal become legal? Well, first of all, he temporarily, right off the bat, becomes legal once this bill passes. Very simple, if he wants to make himself legal, then beyond that, he or she walks in and applies. Or he or she just, they don’t have to pay back taxes; they don’t have to do anything else. If this bill passes, he or she doesn’t have to go through health checks. They don’t have to have any other process. They will be granted, immediately after the passage of this bill, legal status to be here, legal status that is supposedly temporary. Supposedly. The illegal pays a fine of $1,000 for this probationary visa, not the $5,000 that we’ve all heard about. It’s $1,000. And for $1,000, one can obtain the legal right to work in this country, to participate in our Social Security system, to be protected by our laws, and given benefits from our government, a plenty good bargain for them.

But for the taxpayers it’s worse than a raw deal. Yes, out of the shadows will come 15 to 20 million people who will now be demanding equal rights to live here freely, to get jobs, to consume resources that they are not now entitled to consume because they are now here illegally. There is another detail that makes this process dangerous and unworkable. The government, according to this legislation, has only 1 business day to act once an application has been submitted, and that is just 1 day to look over that application and to approve it. After 1 business day, that’s 24 hours, the government must issue the amnesty to that applicant. Is there anyone who doesn’t understand that this means huge numbers of criminals and, yes, terrorists, who will obtain the legal right to live and work here in the United States under this rule because of this legislation? One day to oversee this applicant? One needs to ask, who is writing such obvious insanity into Federal legislation? Obviously, whoever is insisting on a 1-day review, that must be followed by an approval if one doesn’t object; 1-day review, obviously, the person who’s advocating this doesn’t care about us at all. He’s looking to make sure that we treat those people who are in this country illegally better. This person obviously doesn’t care, who’s written this into our Federal law, or is trying to, doesn’t care if Americans are victimized by criminals who should never have been permitted to come here, but will come here because we’re only requiring 1 day to determine if they can be approved or not. Now, you think that criminals throughout the world and even terrorists don’t see this as a vulnerability? Who’s trying to foist this off on us?

Who’s trying to write this into Federal law? They’re not watching out for the interests of the American people. This Z visa gives illegal aliens exactly what they want, the legal right to work in the United States, and the Z visa is renewable every 4 years, without limits. The way this bill is written, you can live in the United States until you die by renewing your Z visa every 4 years. Fellow Americans, who love this country, word games aside, this is amnesty of the worst possible sort. Millions of illegals who broke the law will be granted legal status and can stay in this country as long as they please. In fact, I predict millions of people who are currently holding valid student and tourist visas will immediately apply for the Z visa. and why not? Student and tourist visas expire. The Z visa won’t expire; every 4 years you can just renew it. Only if the alien wishes to become a citizen do the increased fines, that $5,000 we’ve heard about, only if they want to become a citizen do these fines and other requirements come into play. No serious person in the immigration reform movement has ever said that it is citizenship that defines amnesty. Amnesty is not being held to account for breaking the law. This Z visa goes beyond not punishing law breakers. It actually rewards law breakers. Wake up, America. Someone is giving away our country. Someone is betraying the interests of the American people.

The perpetrators of this crime want low wages for the benefit of business and they want political pawns for the benefit of the liberal left. This legislation will make a bad situation that we all know exists in this country, it’ll make it dramatically worse. Is this what the American people are calling for when they want comprehensive immigration reform? They want something that will make it worse than we have it today? I don’t understand how we can stand and let this happen to our country. It is up to us to make sure that it doesn’t. This legislation is a declaration of war on the American middle class. And not only will this legislation increase illegal immigration, a clause in the bill will create a rush to the border. Section 601H5 states that anyone arrested trying to cross into our country, who then claims to have formerly lived in the United States will be allowed to apply for a Z visa; which means they can be approved in 1 day. This is a mind-boggling incentive for fraud. Who wouldn’t want to come across the border on the chance that they could bluff their way into getting amnesty and becoming eligible for all our government programs and eligible for the jobs that should be going to Americans?

Expect to hear ballyhoo about the tough enforcement mechanisms and the ‘‘triggers’’ built into this bill. But don’t believe it; it’s just so much more fraud, more flim-flam. The triggers and other schemes in this bill are a farce. There is no reason these safeguards against illegal immigration have not already been implemented. They are now simply being used as a ruse to disguise the one goal of the elite, and that is to legalize the status of those millions who are already here illegally and leading tens of millions more to come here.

The bill calls for 18,000 Border Patrol agents. That’s one of the claims of why we have to support the bill. We’re going to get 18,000 Border Patrol agents. But we already have 15,000 Border Patrol agents. And in the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, it’s required that there be 2,000 new Border Patrol agents each year through 2010. So this is simply smoke and mirrors. What this new legislation does is simply reiterate hiring mandates that are already in the system, already mandated by law. This bill simply takes credit for the hard work that’s already been done. Of course, they’re doing that because, again, it’s a cover for their attempt to legalize the status of 15 to 20 million illegals and, yes, to unleash a flood of millions more to come into our country. On another level, how does anyone expect to actually meet the goal of increasing the ranks of the Border Patrol when this administration throws Border Patrol agents into prison and gives immunity to alien drug smugglers? This administration has lost the confidence of the Border Patrol. And I submit at this time a statement by the Border Patrol Agents Council opposing this legislation. I would like to put this into the RECORD at this point, Mr. Speaker.


Great News
John Konop, As a lifelong Republican who has never voted for a Democrat, your information about Saxby vs. Cardwell is great news. The same thing needs to happen in South Carolina as well.

Defeating an incumbent in a primary is almost impossible. I have to believe that a populist sounding right center Democrat that is 4 square against amnesty could annihilate a RINO like Saxby or Lindsay Graham in a general election. Were I a resident of either of these states I would be casting my first vote for a Democrat during the next election.

We live in scary times when the Democrats are more willing to welcome conservatives than Republicans. With the conservative Democrats that won house seats during the last election and the entrance of guys like Cardwell (and hopefully many others) I'm afraid we have reached that point.

embarrassed and appalled
I'm aware that those who have chosen to comment on Mr. Chapman's post are self-selected. That is to say, the readers who had the strongest reactions to the contents of the article were moved to respond to it, however vitriolically. That said, I am floored by the lack of pragmatism in said posts. There is nearly no recognition that labor, often supplied by illegal immigrants, is necessary to maintain America's economic engine. There is little acknowledgement that the immigration system is a product of American trade agreements that have concentrated labor markets and redirected mass migration flows to where labor is most available (read: the US). The politicized debate that claims immigration is actually a national security issue is a rhetorical device that exploits America's fear of terorism and infiltration of any kind. Immigration and terrorism are separate issues, just as the policy responses to each issue should be. This false distinction is not limited to petty debates in the hallowed halls of congress. It so happens that, on this very petty internet debate, we all seem to be hiding something as well. That is, our inherent prejudice. No, it is absolutely not racist to ask congress for a sensible and effective solution to illegal immigration; the right bill would benefit the most people and cause the least amount of harm. Until the day comes when politicians can transcend the limitations of partisan politics and create a workable piece of legislation, we need to leave behind our preconceived notions about who America is and what we want our country to look like.

"Removing the motivation to come," as one post recommended, would mean limiting the labor market so that there are fewer jobs, generally. One of the most fundamental and basic ideas of economics is the law of supply and demand. These two economic forces balance eachother in the long run. It's simply logical to conclude that supply will diminish when demand decreases; if no one is buying apples at the supermarket, the apple vendor will stop selling them/growing them because they aren't marketable. All those who claim that illegal aliens are stealing American jobs are shadowboxing. Individuals without legal status--desperate to feed themselves their families--take the bottom rung jobs. They don't have a blanket negative effect on the economic market, as Conservatives often claim.

When the so-called economic downsides to immigration are eroded, the ugly truth is actually laid bare: the most threatening aspect of illegal immigration is the immigrants themselves. They represent a growing heterogeneity and plurality of American. Many have brown skin and can't claim English as their native tongue. We've long heard the trope that America is a nation of immigrants, through and through. Perhaps this statement is so cliched simply because it is true. It's time that we acknowledge that the most principal factor in the immigration debate is not population concerns, scarcity of resources, or a labor shortage problem, but instead, a deep-seeded sense of xenophobia.

ToWhatDoWeO gives
us the deep thinking or an economist...well call me xenophobic as I believe in the sovereignty of America first and foremost....and yes I am afraid of foreign strangers, particularly those that want to decapitate me...a nation of laws or a nation gone under?

Conservatism, a new home?
After this "reform" was proposed by the Republican president and drunken murderer Kennedy I dropped my Republican affiliation and went independent. This "reform" is the last and final insult! It appears that conservatives may need to find a new home, the Republicans are certainly doing what they can to drive us out of the party. The net effect the Bush immigration policy has had on the Republican party is nothing short of destructive.

To the republicans I say, welcome to your next 40 years in the wilderness, hopefully the left does not finish destroying the nation in the mean time. The republican party has missed it's biggest chance in a century to cement it's place in history as the party of patriots. Promoting a conservative agenda with strength, conviction, and honesty could have really brightened the future of the nation!

To Bush, Chapman, and the rest of the leftist and "moderate" RINOs I say, IDIOTS ALL!

COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATISM MY A**!

The most hardcore conservative individual in a race gets my support regardless of party affiliation.

That Bush siffers from ID-10-T failure is apparent but Chapman, if this is your idea of some sort of "analysis" I want to know what schools you attended. I want to make sure I avoid sending my kids to whatever college you graduated from.

Chapman
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 there were 130 Million Americans, 15 Million of which went to the military. We sent those 15 Million all over the world, supplied them, fed them, trained them and had the beauracratic and military apparatus to make it successful. Now advocates are saying that we can't deport 12 Million law breakers? This nation can do anything it puts its mind do. Trouble is, the effete blowhards in Washington don't have the guts to take the criticism from the press and the rest of the world. This nation is going down in flames and we can't do anything to stop it? Try it. Deport every illegal and their offsprings.

WTF?
Chapman says "It would be nice if we could lay down lines on a map and expect people to stay on one side or the other." It would be nice if we just adopted Mexico's immigration rules (and modified our constitution to reflect theirs). Mexico deports more immigrants every year than we do. Mexico treats illegals as felons. Mexican citizens can arrest illegals. Take a look at http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632. And remind yourselves of this: The rules don't matter if the rules are not enforced. See the previous Immigration Laws granting amnesty. Here is Ted Kennedy commenting on the 1965 immigration bill: "The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants. It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society. It will not relax the standards of admission."

Ted Kennedy on thr 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli Bill: "This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this."

Ted Kennedy(2007) on the current immigration proposal: "The plan will strengthen our borders and our national security while providing a tough but fair path to citizenship for millions of people.

And the illegal alien population continues to grow.


Immigration versus "really?"
Mr. Chapman needs another drink/smoke/pill.

NO, he needs an education.

Let's send him somewhere like South L.A., how many of you knew that L.A. is the second largest of Mexican cities??

Yea, only exceeded by Mexico city..

This guy needs to quit writing for the "government", and come to one of our meetings as to how you do business in the U.S.A.

By the way, I would like to congratulate Virginia Lady,, I totally agree.. Why waste money on other Law enforcement??

Suicidal column
This guy Chapman is one for the books. I never read anything so suicidal in my life. He should realize that the USA is not am employmentr office--it's a nation! And a nation, if it intends to exist, has a responsibility to its citizens to protect its borders, culture, language, etc.

Mexico is a failed country because its culture stinks. So then why should I want that culture mixed with mine? We know that Bush wants this culture mixed with ours because he wants to create a North American Union. For this he belongs in a padded cell...along with this guy Chapman.

Sent to Stevie Chapman
You haven't a clue.
Your old rehash of USELESS arguments that don't even come close to reality is sad.

Try enforcement at all levels.
There are numerous and valid ways to eliminate 75 to 90% of the illegals already here. But the deaf never hear.

And no, they aren't in the fields. Only ONE(1) percent of illegals are in the fields. The rest are taking jobs needed by and wanted by Legal citizens..

Guess when they are having shoot outs in your neighborhood you might come around to looking for different excuses as to what can and MUST be done.

You have no idea how all this bill S 1348 is going down with the public. It is not being swallowed. We will chew it up and spit it back at the dumb suc··rs who brought it up..

Yes, we have a list of those RINOs who will not get their next re-election..

Sayanara pickle pus. Not that you are uneducated; just ignorant or needed work so badly you did this piece for the administration, of whom the rest of us have already written off as poison.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.. That's what you're all about, right, feelings..

Semper Fi..

Mr. Chapman, when you say
"the decrees of nations often prrove useless"...do you mean our US LAWS?

About the only part of his column with which I agree is where he suggests that we not expect too much from our government...I think that we have all learned that, have we not?

He erects a strawman in his approach concerning the proposed new law.... why not tell us how you feel about enforcement of the present law? I contend that harsh punishment for employers will temporarily dry up the jobs and create an enticement for attrition. Once the flow has been re-directed back toward Mexico, secure the border and THEN (and only then) turn to a guest worker program to supply the needed labor.

Note:
ToWhatDoWeO - my objection is twofold: rule of law AND cost of illegal immigration. I feel an obligation to my children to oppose turning the US into a social services oasis for all who desire to feed at our table. What do you say about the potential costs associated with your approach?

This from a recent column by Victor Davis Hanson:
"The lower middle classes complain most about massive immigration, but then they have to compete with aliens for jobs, often live among them and don't use their services. The wealthier, who hire immigrants for low wages and see them only at work, often think mass immigration, even if illegal, is wonderful."

Full article can be found at: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/05/the_global_immigration_problem.html

Mr. Chapman states: "the rate of apprehension has actually fallen".
Do you think that such actions as putting the National Guard into a vehicle maintenance mode; that forbidding the Guard to confront or engage the enemy; that placing the power of the US DOJ on the side of the illegals rather than behind our border guards; that prosecuting our border guards when they try to do their job MIGHT also contribute to the drop in the rate of apprehension?

Finally, do you know a certain Linda Chavez?

Better than a fence
Better than a fence at stopping the flow of illegals our Mexican-haters despise is a growing Mexican economy. The market in Mexican companies is anticipating significant growth. A Mexican index fund is up 73% vs the S&P's 21% for 12 months, with dramatic 3 and 5 year comparisons.

Imagine the growth when the business climate improves after Mexico eliminates its drug and corruption problems. Then our base will complain about all the skilled, US educated workers "turning their back on the country that gave them so much" to take Mexican jobs. They might even be called traitors.

A south of the border Shanghai isn't quite what Ross Perot anticipated. :)



Ted Kennedy
I'm getting real tired of you guys getting down on Ted. Sure he's made a few mistakes, DO YOU REALISE HOW HARD IT IS TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAVE SAID WHEN YOU STAY DRUNK 24\7 365 ?

The political will...

...is lacking to lawfully control our Southern Border. When the Empire of Japan attacked the USA in 1941, the USA responded to the Japanese threat with internment camps. For better or worse, constitutional or unconstitutional, there was the political will to protect the USA. Not so with illegal immigration.

No matter how misleading a term Wash. DC puts on an immigration bill, such as "comprehensive", the political will to enforce its provisions is not just not there.

Comprehensive: It's not.

Immigration: It won't effectively control.

Legislation: That will lack the funds and legal language to prevent pro-immigrant interest groups from litigating the law to the point of uselessness.

Gordon's Fence.

I agree with you Gordon. A new and improved Mexico is the real answer and will profit and better both Mexico and the USA.

But "A Mexican index fund is up 73% vs the S&P's 21% for 12 months, with dramatic 3 and 5 year comparisons." Does not reform make.

Mexico has to evolve its legal system from Napoleonic law to Common law before any company will be confident in making a large investment inside Mexico. Even Harry Truman could not seize the US steel mills during the Korean War. Latin countries are not so understanding of private property. Until they are, Latin America will remain a poor and a risky investment.

Reality: Incompetence is a problem
"illegal immigrants come here out of an elemental and healthy desire to improve their lot."

And if it is not possible for an illegal to prosper here, will they still come?

Problems with the verification system? Try having it written by competent people. I'm a programmer and I can tell you this is not a difficult problem. What's this about increasing "the administrative burden on employers tenfold"? What exactly does the new system require of employers?

ToWhatDoWeO writes:
"It's time that we acknowledge that the most principal factor in the immigration debate is not population concerns, scarcity of resources, or a labor shortage problem, but instead, a deep-seeded sense of xenophobia."

"Xenophobia" is another word, along with "nativist" that I would like to never hear again. It is not Mexican-hating that drives this debate. It is loss of country that drives this debate. The two are very different. I don't believe I'm under obligation to let my country become another Mexico. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I would (maybe - they have strict immigration laws). There is no shame in loving one's country - I see it all the time at soccer games in San Jose, CA. There are nothing but Mexican flags and jeering at US players - but that's OK because you're allowed to hate Americans. You're allowed to boo Miss USA in Mexico City and have no one say anything about it.

I now have to learn Spanish to transfer to another facility where I work. Excuse me? In a country who's language has always been English, in a world where most of the world's business is conducted in English, I have to learn Spanish???

My neighborhood is in decline, the sirens wail every night, I no longer feel safe walking after dark - and I live in the middle of suburbia in the Bay Area of CA. There are parts of my city where one dares not go and that's happened in just the last 10 years. The median price of housing here is in the $500,000 range and I can't walk at night. But we all have cheap gardeners and baby sitters. That's not prejudice. That's reality.

Do you know how many Emergency Rooms have closed in CA? Any idea why?

My screen name tells you something. It may not be immune but at least Idaho is still a few years away from becoming a cesspool. It's too late for CA. I'm retiring to Idaho and I'm not telling any of my neighbors where I'm from because I'm not taking CA values with me.

IdahoGal
Don't worry I don't think if they found out where you're from they'd linch you, just figure you're dam smart!!!

Gordon
...You are into some acceptable ideas I suppose, but as bucko say: "Mexico has to evolve its legal system from Napoleonic law to Common law before any company will be confident in making a large investment inside Mexico.""

This is basically true. The law in Mexico is a real bugaboo.. Justice is bought.. you go to jail or if it's a civil case you sit around while someone takes there friggn time to decide who is going to pay better for justice.. Every Mexican past the age of eight knows that..

I can't see them accepting English common law, but they could make some provisions that would help out..

Still you are back to crooked cops, crooked investigators and crooked judges.

Now I am going to tell you, some American corporations like that just fine.. If you have money the place is yours..

You think you got politics in the U.S.A... Mexico wrote the "how to book for beginners and advanced students".. And that's there big challenge, to get past the old politics to a state of actually moving ahead..

However, that said, their new president, Felipe Calderon, may just be their last big hope.. He's starting out very well.. I just hope the drug lords don't decide to take a ground to air missile after him or a bazooka to his motor cade..

There is hope for Mexico, something I wouldn't have bet on a few years back.. but for now it is just hope..

Some of you saw one of my posts where I offered the Mexicans to trade our southwest for old Mexico, because as sure as God made little green apples, in about thirty years tops, they would all be wanting to come home again after we developed it and gave it a real startup..

Idaho Girl
You are very right..

This is what the scandal is all about, and if they continue with this bill, S 1348, they will get, US against THEM. It will rend the country apart far more than black versus white ever did.

You know blacks are only tolerated in Mexico, and that will definitely carry over with the MIGRANTS..

Bush is totally out of sync is the best thing I can say about his support of this disaster in the making.. if I said anymore I might have a stroke of apoplexy in the process..

Doing it wrong
After reading Chapman's article it suddenly came to me: We have been doing it wrong all along and this illegal alien problem can be fixed so easily. All we need to do is have a worse country here, than any other country in the world and nobody will want to come. Heck, most legal Americans will want to migrate out.

Impossible to achieve? Not at all, just implement this pending amnesty bill and it will not take very long at all to get there.

ToWhat DoWeO & IdahoGal
IdahoGal. My sentiments exactly. The elite of Silicon Valley all benefit economically from the abundance of cheap labor. They congratulate one another on their enlightened, progressive ideas as they sip lattes waiting for armies of Mexicans to wash their Lexuses at the car wash. But have they ever been to East Alum Rock Avenue? Do they have the slightest idea how the City Council has destroyed the Valley of Hearts Delight in the hallowed name of "diversity"?
As an American who does one of the "jobs that Americans just won't do" I have been completely betrayed by my Government at all levels.

ToWhatDoWeO, do you understand that the open border advocates have had exactly that for the past 30 years? Open borders. So we have a pretty clear look at what happens to our country when we simply throw up our hands and declare, "oh well. It's market forces at work. we can't do anything about THAT."
I don't know what you see but I see a country that is going down fast. The middle class is disappearing and the gap between the haves & have-nots is getting wider. It would be different if our government would not hand out freebies to those under the "poverty line". But since they do, it's inevitable that there will always be a segment of the population that is content to languish there. On the dole.
I've reconciled myself to the idea of supporting our homegrown deadbeats. Don't send me new shipments of them from other countries.

THE Reality: Fort Dix 6 instant "legal"
Dear Mr. Chapman:

Here is a reality for you.
Under the Bush-Kennedy-McCain fiasco of a bill on "immigration" the "Fort Dix Six" would have been granted instant legal status, and instant qualification on "path to citizenship"

Here is another reality for you.
We live in a post-September 11 climate on immigration policy.

Here is another reality for you.
The token enforcement by Clinton far exceeded the non-enforcement by "Dubya."

When enforced, borders work very well all over the world. Borders are a central fact of history. Borders are what has shaped nations and
empires for millenia.

THEREFORE - your central thesis that we cannot change human behavior is not valid. Because we know borders work as a fact of human history.

Consistent border enforcement instead of the occassional "media event" will change human behavior.

Here is another reality for you.
This Bush-Kennedy-McCain fiasco of a proposed bill has pushed GOP donors away. The GOP is going broke, fast.

Here is another reality for you.
When McCain-Bush tried to ram an "open-borders" bill down our throats last year - we responded by voting for anyone who was pro-close the borders. Even Democrats promised tough immigration enforcement.

Therefore, Democrats earned their majority by - A POLICY OF TOUGH ON BORDER ENFORCEMENT.

So, Mr. Chapman, get real.
Therefore, Bush-McCain and their ilk deprived the GOP voter of viable alternatives. We stayed home, the GOP lost.

Here is another reality for you:
As Peggy Noonan put it so eloquently, the Bush family has a knack for squandering their inheritance. We GOP foot soldiers gave "Dubya" the House & Senat & White House.

He failed to reform Social Security. He failed to make tax cuts permanent.

euphemistic myths being perpetrated
Have you noticed that when the advocates and apologists for ILLEGALS state their cases that they seem vacuous and facile prima facie/on the surface? Consider:

FALSE PREMISES AND SCARE TACTICS:
The "undocumented" are just doing jobs that Americans won't do that we must have done... they give more than they take... they pay into S.S. funds they will not get back... they have lesser rates of crime than legal Americans... they just want to share in the blessings of America just like the rest of us, which they have ever right to do... resentment against them is racist/xenophobic-- they are really no different from prior waves of immigrants who were also resented, but who assimilated and made America great... the proposed legislation is not amnesty... Americans generally believe in a path to citizenship for those already here... we cannot simply round up and deport 12-20 million... the only crime they have committed is akin to jaywalking

DEMYTHOLOGIZING REALITIES & INCONVENIENT TRUTHS:

1) ILLEGALS ARE INDEED taking many jobs that Americans will gladly do, driving down wages, and permeating myriad concomitant inimical problems (crimes, barrio blight, drugs, gangs, illegitimacies, droputs, balkanization, diseases) like a plague of fire ants or killer bees.

2) ILLEGAL aliens do NOT contribute more than they take, because the government services alone used by the uneducated indigent GREATLY exceed any minimal taxes paid (mostly sales taxes, etc.). Heritage calculates that each household headed by the undereducated indigent (legal OR ILLEGAL) will drain over $1 million in the course of a lifetime:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm

3) Presidente Jorge has already committed to send already unfunded and threatened S.S. funds south to Mexico, and ILLEGALS would become eligible much sooner than American taxpayers... Gaucho Jorge promised THEM while visiting in Mexico recently that he would work for THEM on this Scamnesty legislation! That is TREASON!

4) Latino rates of crime and other social pathologies are, sadly, pandemically troublesome (the reasons are irrelevant to this discussion really-- facts are stubborn things), and worse among the poorer ones like most coming in ILLEGALLY (more than half have only a 7th grade education, assuring the snowballing of the associated social problems):

http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2Q5ZWZiOTU2OTY1YWEyZDFiYTliNTRmMzk0ODIwMmE=
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/index.html

5)they are NOT just like prior waves of immgrants in several ways... there are far more at once, there is no ocean separating them from the old cultures, they are clinging to same with no desire to assimilate, and the PC/multicultural ilk is aiding and abetting the ethnocentricity with bilingualism... furthermore, America is a VASTLY different nation socio-economically than it was when many LEGAL immigrants came historically-- we can benefit on balance today ONLY FROM EDUCATED, SKILLED IMMIGRANTS, which is NOT the norm among the great unwashed running across the border.

6) the pending Scamnesty is PRECISELY that, and the all-in implcations are egregious:

http://www.firesociety.com/article/12134/

7) Americans are rightfully indignant about the nonfeasance of the govt. which has allowed the ILLEGAL invasion to become an infestation. It is NOT that we are afraid of diversity as Presidente jorge lamely and disingenuously opined-- we already are the most diverse nation on earth! Ad hominem braying about "racism" is the calumny of artful scoundrels. When polled HONESTLY, Americans rightfully have profound concerns about unbridled immigration, especially ILLEGAL invaders:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20530

8) the artful ploy that "we cannot deport 12 million" is a false argument-- TRUE enforcement of EXISTING LAWS would result in attritive repatriation at THEIR expense-- the same way they got here... we need only the political will to reflect the desires of Middle America.

9) the facile remote "elitist" PC theories of bilingualism and multiculturalism are doomed to failure. Even in countries with essentially the same ethnicity and culture, bilingualism alone creates crises.

10) as to scurrilous Geraldo-ilk suggestions that "these good people" are committing minor crimes akin to jaywalking in crossing the border, this is but the first of what become serial patterns of lawbreaking including tax dodging, identity fraud, welfare cheating, etc. ad nauseam.

Those Who Don't Know History...
In about 1785 an oft heard slogan in France was undoubtedly, "our economy needs the peasant class because they will do the jobs that French Aristocrats won't do."

Immigration Flood Unleashed by NAFTA

This is why you cannot fix immigration without fixing trade? Do you think Clinton & Gore with bipartisan lawmakers sold out American workers with NAFTA?

CD-The recent ferment on immigration policy has been so narrow that it has excluded the real issue: family-sustaining wages for workers both north and south of the border. The role of the North American Free Trade Agreement and misnamed ‘free trade’ has been scarcely mentioned in the increasingly bitter debate over the fate of America’s 11 to 12 million illegal aliens.

NAFTA was sold to the American public as the magic formula that would improve the American economy at the same time it would raise up the impoverished Mexican economy. The time has come to look at the failures of this type of trade agreement before we engage in more and lower the economic prospects of all workers affected.

While there has been some media coverage of NAFTA’s ruinous impact on US industrial communities, there has been even less media attention paid to its catastrophic effects in Mexico:

NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their ‘death warrant.’

NAFTA’s service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.

Wages along the Mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA, reported a Carnegie Endowment study. An over-supply of workers, combined with the crushing of union organizing drives as government policy, has resulted in sweatshop pay running sweatshops along the border where wages typically run 60 cents to $1 an hour.

So rather than improving living standards, Mexican wages have actually fallen since NAFTA. The initial growth in the number of jobs has leveled off, with China’s even more repressive labor system luring US firms to locate there instead.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/immigration-flood-unleashed-by-nafta

Anchor Babies
Sovereignty, or "The New World Order?" Accountability, or bankruptcy? An admired unique culture and society, or multiculturalism and multilingualism? The "Melting Pot" and assimilation, or sectarian strife and violence? A sound legacy for future generations, or a death-spiral into doom? Citizenship for offspring of legal residents, or anchor babies from illegal alien parentage? Immigration "reform," or enforcement of existing laws? WAKE UP, AMERICA--or follow like sheep in the UK's and Europe's wake. The writing is on the wall... May God preserve us all.

Vallientfortruth
Please tell me the "Token enforcement " of Clinton. Do you honestly believe all these illegals came here in the last 7 years?? Sorry but you need to wake up and smell the Clintons.

people can solve this problem
Steve Chapman claims that America can't realistically stop illegal immigration. Once again a conservative expresses the opinion that only government can solve problems, and since government can't solve the illegal immigration problem, the problem is unsolvable. This is a crock, because its fundamental assumption is wrong - that the only possible solution to verify immigration status is dependent on government.

"Hardliners think the way to get rid of illegal immigrants is to get rid of the jobs they fill. In the Senate bill endorsed by President Bush, advocates of tougher enforcement got a new system for employers to verify that their workers are entitled to be here. Anyone newly hired (and, in time, anyone with a job) would have to pass a check of federal databases.

It's a fine idea in theory, but note that it requires government authorization for every employment decision in a large, dynamic economy, an approach that is just slightly at odds with the free market. It also presumes a level of efficiency that conservatives do not usually expect of government."


It's a terrible idea in theory and would be worse in practice. This is how big-government conservatives and big-government liberals destroy America. Both liberals and conservatives mistake America for the federal government. America was made great by its people, not the government, and the American people can solve this problem. The federal government can't stop illegal immigration, but the American people can.

American employers are more than capable of effectively identifying the citizenship of their prospective employees. We don't need any special ID card. We don't need any big-government plan. All we need to do is provide employers and incentive to verify citizenship of their employees, and that incentive is already built into existing law - send employers who don't verify citizenship to jail.

Mr. Chapman is right that free market forces drive American employers to hire illegal aliens at lower wages than Americans will take for the same work. In the absence of any penalty for hiring illegal aliens, we can't stop the southern invasion. No fence will stop it. Militarization of the border won't stop it.

But when employers are faced the possibility of going to jail, as proscribed by law, for hiring illegal aliens, they will stop hiring them. They will review the IDs and citizenship of their employees and they will thoroughly check the citizenship documents of prospective employees. Currently employed illegal immigrants will lose their jobs, and they will be unable to find new jobs. With no market incentive for being in America, illegal immigrants will go home and work to build the economies of their own countries and Americans and legal immigrants will take the open jobs at fair market wages.

There will still be a problem with counterfeit documents, but the vast majority of illegal immigrants don't buy counterfeit documents. They don't need to because our government refuses to enforce the law against employers. Our government wants illegal aliens to provide labor at sub-market prices.

The government is the problem. The people are the solution. All we need to do is enforce existing laws. By having employers take the jobs for illegal aliens off the market, the illegal alien invasion will be reduced to a manageable amount for existing authorities to handle. Hard-core illegal aliens who won't leave will be caught and deported. Counterfeiters, having a greatly reduced market and comparably reduced funds, will be arrested and convicted.

Mr. Chapman:
Since you work for the Tribune, I have to assume that you live in Chicago. I would also have to assume that you live in a highrise near the Tribune Tower and never venture out into the outlyings or you could never have written this column.

If Mexicans were the first and only immigrants to this country I could agree with you; however, they are set apart by the fact that Mexicans have been living in Chicago since the early 1900s. They, like every other group, came to work the stockyards and steel mills, built churches of all denominations that were the centers of their non-working lives and the keepers of their cultures. Away from home and church, you became an American.

The gateway neighborhoods were literally invaded in the early '90s. In a span of 4 or 5 years, the neighborhoods were overrun by gangs, shootings were taking place nightly, the crime rates shot up, schools were overcrowded, church schools closed for lack of support from the new parishioners who wouldn't pay tuition, large established grocery chains closed to be replaced by lower-quality ethnic ones, signs and billboards became Spanish only, people in entry-level jobs were replaced by barely-bilingual speakers, emergency rooms have become armed camps or walkin clinics, alleys overflowed with garbage attracting rats that had been under control, streets were loaded with trash that kept the sweepers overworked, and graffitti was, and is more than ever, everywhere.

My house was in my family since 1918 but we moved in 1997 to a suburb because the neighborhood wasn't liveable anymore. I had a police radio on 24/7 to keep track of the shootings. More and more Hispanics have followed us because there's no place else in Chicago that they can take over now. So now what do you suggest?

Can we do a Mexican Marshall plan to get Mexico in shape so the large percent of its population will go home? Or perhaps one could twist the arm of the third-richest man in the world to do something for his country.

Enforcing the border
The communists in East Germany demonstrated how effectively a border can be closed off when there is the will to do it. I am not condoning that the US go to the same extremes as the communists did, but certainly there is an acceptable middle ground where we would at least be a little bit serious about impeding the flow of people and drugs across our border. Our current efforts cannot honestly be called anything other than pitiful and anyone who denies this is either dishonest or stupid to the point of being a total moron.

A possible answer
could be for our President to appoint John Bolton as Ambassador to wonderful Mejico. He could tell them that Americas immigration laws will now mirror those of Mexico.Starting now. Watch the changes. Daily.

Nothing But Propaganda
With the stark exception of Lou Dobbs, almost all of the media is in on the sell out of America. Most of what we see on T.V. is designed to manipulate the public. The administration has only recently done enforcement actions with the intent of providing tear jerking pictures of "poor immigrants". The way slanted dishonest polls are being used to sway public opinion and presented as news is stunning. This campaign of disinformation is worthy of Goebbels.

We are being convinced that it would be wrong to insist that people comply with the law.

That it is racist to want foreign nationals to adapt to our language, culture, and laws.

That anyone who can run across the border should be given U.S. citizenship.

That foreign nationals who break our laws sneaking into our country should be entitled to things that citizens cannot get, like in-state tuition.

That citizens who object to abandoning the rule of law are a small minority of restrictionist, racist, bigoted, xenophobic, nativist yahoos.

That citizens who step up to do the job the government won't do are vigilantes.

That we have no choice but to surrender our country.

Wake me up when the world turns right side up.

Chapman
"illegal immigration is one of those phenomena that show the ineffectuality of laws in impeding humans from pursuing their interests."

"illegal immigration is one of those phenomena that show the ineffectuality of UNENFORCED laws in impeding humans from pursuing their interests."

That is the reality you seem to miss.

eastlake joe
gotta side with valiant for truth on this one. Check the numbers at vdare.com. Arrests and enforcement actions declined steadily throughtout Bush's terms. Enforcement went from inadequate to non-existent. The problem has doubled in the last 6 years. 10 million to 20 million.

Good try Chapman
Here is what I hear from Chapman. Illegal immigration is necessary, inevitable, beneficial, natural, market force driven and unstoppable. No line on a map can stop the illegals from coming in.

By his reasoning, if someone is unemployed and needs money badly, that person not only should, but is justified in coming into my home without my permission, eat out of my refrigerator and sleep in my bed. He repays me by cutting the grass once a week. I might as well accept the fact this person will be living with me permanently because there is not anything I can do about it. After all, he is keeping my yard immaculate. How INSANE is that?!

Mr. Chapman, I have a line on my map. It is called a property line. A sign says "NO TRESPASSING". It works quite well, because any potential trespasser understands the consequences of trying to take part of my property.

Jamie pointed out that Mexico uses this exact same tactic in dealing with their illegal immigrants. You come into my house uninvited, you will be dealt with harshly.

ToWhatDoWeO gives us insite.
ToWhatDoWeO writes "It's time that we acknowledge that the most principal factor in the immigration debate is not population concerns, scarcity of resources, or a labor shortage problem, but instead, a deep-seeded sense of xenophobia." I couldn't disagree more. Each and every country on this planet has their own unique culture, language, and borders. Why are we to be called racist when all we want is the same? How can a country continue when there is no longer a sense of togetherness? If we do not speak the same language how are we to understand one another? I am all for LEGAL immigration, BUT not for ILLEGAL immigration. This does not make me a racist.

simon
ToWhatDoWeO is using a standard liberal tactic. When he is finished expressing his point of view, he caps off the diatribe by calling the opponent a bigot or racist. It puts the opponent in a position of having to defend himself, instead of actually debating the issue. Lindsey Graham has learned well from the liberals. When recently booed by an audience opposed to his amnesty bill, he did not want to confront the criticism with substantive arguments. Instead, he said “You bigots need to shut up.” It is a coward’s way of avoiding real debate.

Eastlake Joe & Virginia Patriot
Thank you both for both of your observations.

The almost zero border enforcement under Dubya was what I meant to illustrate.

Did not intend to make Slick Willie Clinton look good. He was a disaster in many other ways.

And - I voted for Dubya twice. I would do so again, given the alternatives. The Dems are hopeless. It has been noted the negatives on Dubya now outweigh the positives.

The Clintonistas wrought terrible havoc on the USA. Clinton sold ballistic missile technology to Red China, which they now use to threaten us.

Hillary, "Barry" Obama, and the boyish trial lawyer with pretty hair are all disasters looking for place to happen.

Which illustrates the need for our second tier GOP candidates to receive your support.

You know my man - Congressman Duncan Hunter.
http://www.gohunter08.com
He has a stellar resume. I trust you will do your own investigation.


Maybe some of the other GOP men can pull through and fly right.

Except McCain. He's with the crazies on the abolish the border fiasco. Not to mention McCain-Feingold abolished free political speech, McCain torpedoed conservative Federal Court appointments, (gang of 14) etc.

Don't give up - the Late, Great, President Reagan came from far back in the pack to a history making victory. And he did much to clean up after Carter. Still more to do there, with the Iran situation.

"United We Stand" - remember 1776 - Vote America first.

Bird Feeder - great analogy for Congress

Bird Feeder

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, and the table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And others birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds we re gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quite, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now let's see . . . our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, and other free programs. Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English. Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties. Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.

Please make sense, rocker
"bigots are out in full force. they have being looking for a reason to show thier bigotry. since it is now frowned upon to be anti-jew or anti-black, they have found a new excuse to show thier true colors."

Aside from your sweeping and unsupported assumption (stated as fact, of course) that anyone against this bill is a bigot, there's also the minor matter that you don't make any sense.

It is just as "frowned upon" to be anti-hispanic as it is to be anti-black, so where's this "new excuse" you speak of?

finally
a grownup on immigration here.

all these ignorant facists trying to remake the usa with a berlin wall on the south and protectionism and unionism and then claim they are not racist and that they are consevative.

what a pathetic joke, there is nothing conservative about anti imigrant anti free trade know nothing yahoos. they are no different than the historical know nothings.


Virginia Patriot
I've saked this before to no avail, perhaps you can explain. How did they asertain that all20 million came here during Bushs tenure? Hells bells man, they can't even agree as to how many are here but they know they came here during Bushs time in office? Get real. Can't find them can't deport them, And don't know where they all are. Sound familiar? I don't try to defend Bush the indefensable but this whole senario sounds like something out of a comic book. Who posteed the numbers you talk about? Dems? MSM? Doesn't wash.

Sorry
That should be ASKED not SAKED.

eastlake joe
numbersusa and vdare have the best numbers on enforcement and estimates on illegals. No one is suggesting the illegals all arrived during Bush's tenure. Enforcement did drop to nonexistent making the problem much, much worse.

For the last time...
The Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain was to keep people IN. Read a history book.

obvious
my knowledge of history is ok. entering or leaving was not relevant to the comparison.

yahoos on this blog want mined walls with machine guns to kill people crossing. that is the similarity and why it works as a comparison.

Virginia patriot
I didn't mean to jump down your throat. Its just that all these estimates are not based on fact. This is proven by the fact that none can agree on the on the number which goes from a low of 5 to t6 million to as high as 50 million. This tells me that they don't have any idea how many actually are here except to say there are too many! Clinton's "token resistance was nothing but a sham to make him look better, and nothing else.

Ridiculous the concept
It's a ridiculous concept that our immigration laws should be conformed to the needs of the very people breaking them. Hardly an inducement to spreading democracy to other nations. Particularly so long as it remains easier and more lucrative for illegals to "slip across the border", rather than work to resolve issues in their native lands. I would note that all "invasions" share the same constituent parts, that of "motivation", and the intelligence to avoid attempts to stop the invasion. Understanding this reality, doesn't argue in favor of accommodating illegals, anymore than increasingly intelligent criminals argues in favor of diminished law enforcement. Make no mistake, only the United States remains so "politically correct" as to jeopardize it's on economic, social and cultural interests as to allow itself to become "the easy way out" for all those to lazy or cowardly to change their own nations policies. Indeed, I daresay that our founders might themselves have opted to slip across a porous border to easy prosperity, rather than confront the crown. The problem remains that America's jobs, infrastructure, quality of life, are all being degraded by unconstrained immigration, this is the reality that American's deal with daily. Apparently, the author, much like this President and Senate Elites, has forgotten the fundamental basis for all democracies, even representational democracies such as our own. Majority rule! The overwhelming majority of America's Citizens, for better or worse, oppose this dangerous, egregious, unrepresentative Senate Immigration reform legislation, it's amnesty, it's guest worker provisions, the whole kit-and-kaboodle! This Legislation is so unpopular, that our Senate and our President fear it will not pass through normal channels, and that's why they are trying mightily to jam this bill down our throats. When the next revolution happens (sooner rather than later is my guess), might I suggest that we throw Legislator's overboard, rather than Tea?

WHY NOT JUST SURRENDER?
We can't stop illegal immigration. People will come here, legally or illegally, as long as the American Dream offers them hope of a better life.

So let's just tear down all fences on the border. Convert the Border Patrol into the Immigration Experience Enhancement Patrol. Take away their jeeps and give them ice cream trucks.

Let's make US citizenship optional. Let's allow anybody who lives here to vote here. Heck, let's offer automatic citizenship to anybody who volunteers for jury duty.

Check this out
I read an article on Washington post about Repubs think this bill will now pass since people aren't yelling as much. I don't get why they think the base has changed thier mind on this issue.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/03/AR2007060301455.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

get a history book
Analogies to the Berlin Wall will only work so long as you suspend disbelief that illegal immigration has reached "invasion proportions"!

In fact, annually, more illegals stream across our southern border, than all the U.S. Troops we put ashore on D-Day. Use of force, in the absence of other "workable" measures, is universally accepted as part of a nations right to protect their sovereignty. Indeed, the potential use of deadly force underpins all law enforcement.

Significantly, once the prospect of "force" is placed on the table, law enforcement seldom requires much use of "deadly force" to accomplish it's ends. Arguing that we cannot or should not enforce our immigration laws is a slippery slope. At what point does all law enforcement finally achieve "diminishing returns". We've allowed ourselves to reach a level of "immigration lawlessness" that some would argue merits no longer trying to enforce the law. Obviously such people fail to understand that American's also have dreams, desires, and aspirations. Often such dreams, desires, aspirations do not countenance congestion, overcrowding, or a diminishing quality of life, or one set of laws for America's Citizens, and another less "prohibitive" set of laws for those willing to break our immigration laws. I'm not advocating "mowing anyone down" who attempts to cross our border illegally. It is not racist, or unreasonable for our immigration laws to reflect an aura of inhospitality to all who fail to comply with our laws. That's why they are called "laws", rather than "loosely enforced guidelines"! However; for our Legislator's to force this egregious immigration reform legislation down our throats, without considering that America's Citizens deserve some say in the matter, seems dangerously short sighted, and sets and even more dangerous precedent. A precedent that just might backfire and result in civil unrest never imagined in the streets of our nation!

OMG!!!!! MEXICAN HOLOCAUST!!!!111
gc writes: Monday, June, 04, 2007 9:35 AM
"obvious
my knowledge of history is ok. entering or leaving was not relevant to the comparison.

yahoos on this blog want mined walls with machine guns to kill people crossing. that is the similarity and why it works as a comparison."

Not one for hyperbole or generalizing are you? Your IED debate tactics are weak as Bush's: claim anyone who opposes this bill wants Mexican immigrants cut down by machine guns at the border. Please support your absurd machine gun thesis or leave room those more credible than you.

We can enforce our laws, we have in the
In the early 1950's almost 1.5 million illegals were deported in less than 4 months, using less than 700 border patrol officers. Given the enormous increase (with more promised) in border patrol resources, couldn't we at least make an attempt at comprehensively enforcing our existing immigration laws? I have yet to see a demonstrable argument for not enforcing our laws. The only appreciable downside (one that most American's would insist isn't a downside) is that employers would again "have to" compete for the employee's they need on a "fair market basis", based on available "legal workers"! Certainly, some businesses, particularly those that lack the requisite products, services, or management skill sets to remain competitive, will fall by the wayside! It is not the responsibility of our government, or the duty of America's tax payers, to assure America's entrepreneurs and endless supply of "cheap alternatives to hiring American workers"! America's Citizens recognize and accept that there will be costs and consequences to enforcing our immigration laws, American Business and our Legislators should likewise accept these same costs and consequences!

lol ed
thanks for the humor. quite a hoot.

how people respond about immigration depends on how the question is phrased. what choices you offer. there is no majority ready to support the extreme solutions proposed here. the people here are a small amen corner re-enforcing each other into thinking that the majority of americans woulds sit still for a berlin wall on our southern border, mass raids at business's and deportations, increased nastiness to foreigners from the nastiest immigration department in the world etc etc. the current legislation may not be perfect, but it addresses the issue in a grownup manner. something not much seen at townhall.

we have already made it so difficult to enter legally that many airlines simply avoid the usa. our embassys are staffed and run in ways to produce a nasty view of the usa. this is done on purpose no less. companies avoid operations here, those here re-organize abroad because virtually all growth for usa companys is outside the usa. these are not accidents.

east berlin isolated itself and relied on its attatchment to a failed association with a failed ideology of a failing nation. as we see the unwise rise of protectionmism and isolationism it is smart to point out that these ideas are nothing but racist, stupid, fearful, and failing ideas.

the only conservatism similar to this protectionism, nationalism and isolationism is mussolini's. so you guys rant all you want here in the amen corner while grownups get the job done.

Taking it too the streets
So many blogs, commentaries, etc... indicate that a majority of American's oppose this legislation. Why aren't we taking this too the streets? Why aren't we crowding into our Senators offices and demanding that the will of the American People be recognized? Sure it might cost a little, or we might miss a days work, but what could possibly be more worthwhile? We can all write, e-mail, phone or fax till we're blue in the face, but nothing impacts a Legislator's thinking like "physical confrontation". Better to confront our Legislators now, than the civil unrest that will result from forcing S. 1348 down our throats!

Want to contact your Senators?
"For those of you having difficulty getting thru to your senator, here is the 800 # paid for by the Mexican Amnesty Activists:

800-882-2005

This will get you directly to your senator unlike the #'s available to the US Citizen.

Press 1 when you hear a Spanish message, then Press 1 again to be transferred to your senior senator's office

OR

Press 2 when you hear a Spanish message, and you'll be transferred to your junior senator's office.

It takes a just a couple of minutes (depends on what you want say), you get through immediately and the call is paid for by the open-borders and amnesty supporters.

SPREAD THE WORD AND CALL NOW BEFORE ITS TO LATE! WE ONLY NEED 7 MORE SENATORS TO CHANGE THEIR VOTES TO STOP IT."

Jeffry P.
Jeff,you just did it, you just described Bubba Land!!!! All right!!

thanks ed
you re-nforce every point i made about you crazys. to the baracades!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL you are one funny guy.

gc: Isolationism and Immigration...
Are two entirely diverse topics that have no relevance to this discussion. Every sovereign nation protects its borders from illegal entry by millions of people. As such, an argument about this country's policies or geopolitical posturing with regard to foreign affairs only obfuscates the subject at hand. More germain to the discussion would be topics such as: "how our government plans to pay for social services for a group that comprises 92% of our country's poor" or "How can the U.S. support a population who will draw three dollars for every one dollar contributed."

bad math from obvious.
since neither of your questions are based in fact. i won't respond. fantasy stats to say the least.

dialing in our population with methods suggested here repeatedly is isolationism in a country becoming more so every day. as to social services, not once have i heard anyone propose to reserve those to citizens, or to non citizen tax payers or anything else. it is a cannard that illegals here contribute little, use up social services etc. but hey, if you wanna restrict that, that is reasonable and fine with me. i don't think govt has any business spending one dime in social services for anyone. unlike most of the protectionism, isolationism and nationalism discussed here that would be reasonable. look, we need a more open and international country. not a more isolated difficult to enter and do business with country. if you have ideas how to do that and make illegals cost less, that is fine. but illegals are not here just to fufill their needs, they are here because of our needs.

Brilliant
We'll never stop the production and import of illegal drugs, so we shouldn't bother. Might as well just accept drug use and not criminalize that behavior either.

Prostitution will continue in one form or another, regardless of laws, it's irresponsible to believe we can end such activity.

Child pornography, even after all teh crackdowns and our best efforts still continues, so why do we bother trying to limit it; the market will find a way. Those involved in that activity have a strong interest in continuing regardless of the consequences.

We can never slow the importation of terrorists either. Their drive and desire to enter the U.S. and kill civilians will surely override our ability to stop them, so there's no real point in trying to catch them.

Heck, we can just cancel all police services right now. I mean, people seem to have incentives to commit activities like murder, theft, arson, rape, etc. and all our attempts to coutner these activities cannot stop these activities from occuring... so we might as well give in.

"Believing that [law] enforcement can [stop] people who are prepared to [risk/endure] huge sacrifices to [commit crimes] is more in the realm of dreams." Right? SO why bother with law enforcement at all... it's just a dream, it can't provide anything useful.

I welcome the coming anarchy and the end of civilization from following the precepts of the plan listed above to it's obvious conclusion.

That, or the plan above is lacking in logical thought. One or the other seems to be the case.

legalizing
drugs would definitely be smart. there is a problem with drugs legal or not. drugs being illegal cause far more problems than people realize.

steve is a moron

So let's get this straight. Both the illegal and the employer benefit and we conservatives should accept that reality.

Steve, steve, steve. You really need to get out of your ivory tower.

We taxpayers are getting hosed big time. We are paying thousands for illegal alien children in our schools, illegal aliens getting food stamps, rent subsidies, etc. We see our health care costs escalate because illegals show up at hospital emergency rooms.

If a business has to have illegals to stay afloat, then it deserves to sink---and the owners should be fined so heavily that they go bankrupt. The 2nd time, it's jail time baby.


Illegal immigration
Sir: You have it so right. This is a political move. I can only hope that the Senate will soon get the word on this the way the Congress has- We will not re-elect you if this bill passes.

I have never felt this strongly about a political subject in my life. I am urging my friends to contact their representatives, and urging them not to support a political party that is in favor of this type of legislation.

In one part, the bill calls for "background checks". Are they kidding? For even a very conservative 8 million people, does anyone have any idea what this alone will do to the grinding bureaucracy? I am presently in month 6 of a multi-agency background check for a certain kind of license, and I am a US Citizen, born and raised! What kind of check are they going to run on these people? Google searches???

Akagi
This has to be one of the most idiotic columns I have ever read on TH. Just because the US is too incompetent to enforce its immigration laws doesn't mean that other countries lack the competence to do so.

Taiwan, Japan among others doesn’t have much of an illegal immigration problem. Yes both countries have illegal aliens but Taiwan doesn't have two million illegals nor does Japan have 8 million illegals. You don't see hordes of people waiting at a CPC gas station waiting for day labor work in Taipei for example. No society can stop 100% of illegal immigration nor can 100% of rapes be stopped, so since we can't stop all rapists, rape should be legalized?

Yes, since both Taiwan and Japan are island nations it is a good deal harder to enter the country illegally, but that is not why illegal immigration isn't an issue in these two states--they both enforce their labor laws, which make it illegal to hire someone not allowed to work inside the country and people who do face stiff fines and jail.

Both countries require a national ID card for its citizens as well as an ID card for non-citizens who are allowed to work in these countries.

No interior enforcement will work in the US without a tamper proof (meaning biometric-based) ID card for people allowed to work in the US (both citizen and non-citizen). The problem with the 1986 law was even employers who tried to follow the law and hire only those legally allowed to work in the US were faced with a flood of easily faked documents. A biometric ID would solve this problem. Once this is done, then you have Draconian-level fines. Say $100,000 per illegal found at a work site for the first offense. A second offense and the company's assets are seized by the government and those responsible for the hiring sent to prison for five years as well as seizing all of their personal assets.

As it is now, the enforcement of illegal employment is light and the fines just a cost of doing business. Put a few companies out of business and a few people in jail while taking every penny they own and we'll see how many others are willing to take the risk. In Chinese there is an idiom “ ????” (sha ji jing hou) meaning to kill the chicken in order to warn the monkey. It means you take severe punishment against those so others will not follow their example.

Another thing that can be taken from Taiwan. You do not allow any person to wire money from the US unless they are a US citizen or in the US as a legal resident (either as a permanent resident or on a non-immigrant visa).

Also (and these might take a Constitutional amendment) end all public services including public schools to anyone not legally in the US--except for emergency medical treatment at which time the person is well enough to travel, they will be arrested and deported and the costs of the treatment billed to the Mexican government.

A constitutional amendment that repeals the part of the 14th amendment giving citizenship to anyone born in the US. Citizenship by birth would be restricted to persons born to at least one US citizen.

Another thing that Taiwan and Japan have is that illegals have no access to their court system. This should be the case in the US, but again would probably take a constitutional amendment.

Since the Congress is owned by various corporate interests who rely on illegal labor, don't expect anything like this to ever happen.


Two small errors
"????" would be Chinese chracters if TH web coding could read the code correctly. And in my suggestion that medical care for illegals should be billed to the Mexican government, I meant billed to the country of the illegal being treated. Obviously if the illegal was from China, the hospital would bill China, not Mexico. But since 65% of all illegals are in fact Mexican, you get the point.


I am embarrassed and appalled too
ToWhatDoWeO:


That so many Americans would sell out their country for a hand full of silver. What are you Americans, a bunch of prostitutes?

If a business can't survive without illegal labor it deserves to fail.

And for that idiot GC:

Illegal alien is not a race. Being against illegal aliens doesn't make one a racist. Just so you know, Hispanics and Mexicans aren't a race either so I could say that Mexicans were close relatives to the sewer rat and it wouldn't make me a racist or that statement racist.

Also, the Berlin Wall was made to keep people in, not keep people out. The US as a sovereign nation (in theory) has the right to keep those that have no right to be in the country out. Are you a racist for having locks on your doors? And those illegals aren't immigrants. Immigrants apply for visas, wait for years and sometimes decades for their visas, go through a criminal background check, etc etc. People that cross the border in the dead of night are criminals--no better than someone that breaks into your house in the dead of night.

Economism
Libertarian types tend to reduce all arguments to economic utilitarianism. This is true of Steve Chapman, Steve Moore, Virginia Postrel, Grover Norquist and scores of others. None have any cultural feelings whatsoever and that is why none care that Third World immigration is radically altering America's culture. Conservatives should work to conserve the American culture and turn their backs on economism. America is much more than a market.

Another out-of-touch voice
Steve Chapman joins the ranks of politicians and pundits who are totally out-of-step with what conservative voters and, indeed, the majority of Americans want: Our laws, borders, and sovereignty respected and upheld.

Hear Here, Akagi!
.

The wall
There is something missing from the wall argument. yo argue that the wall was to keep people in. Well isn't that what we want? to keep the illegals IN Mexico?

Steve Chapman: Crank
Funny, until today, I didn't realize Chapman was a crank and an utter fool.

Thanks Jimmy
Thank you JC--although the very sight of that name makes me slightly ill at the stomach.

Note that Saxby "illegal alien" Chambliss' two potential Democratic rivals are on the right of him on the immigration issue.

Note to GOP members: if your Democratic rivals are to the right of you and the bill is sponsored by Ted Kennedy, you don't have to read the bill. You should know it is a bad bill just from that very fact.


Interesting
"immigration is one of those phenomena that show the ineffectuality of laws in impeding humans from pursuing their interests".

Yeah, unenforced laws do have a tendency to be ineffectual, Steve.

You're "market mechanisms" argument could be applied to the war on drugs as well. Arguing for drug legalization would give you the unbridled support of most Libertarian conservatives. But at least there you could say with some credibility that there's been a robust effort to enforce the law. But illegal immigration ?

How about a robust effort to enforce the border ? It seems to me that the first "reality" that the law should "accomodate" is the reality that laws actually have to be enforced to be taken seriously.


Realism
It is refreshing to see some realism and less of the usual stubborn bigotry regarding such issues. Yes, it would be nice to actually enforce these laws, and yes, we can spend time, money, and effort on troops stopping illegal immigrants at our borders instead of fighting an endless war in Iraq. However, if one was to argue that, that same effort could be spent on something even more important including the usual cliches like ending world hunger (or at least in the states) or achieving peace in the world (or just in the states). Furthermore, seeing as how our country is run by corporations, if the corporations truly do not want any illegal immigrants and labor here, they could have been stopped by now. It's a two-way street.

Also, I'd say don't burn any bridges. Remember that comical spin in the film The Day After Tomorrow where all the Americans are illegally crossing the border to Mexico? Hey, it can happen.

The Wall
No.

The Berlin Wall was to keep people in East Berlin in East Berlin or at least in East Germany. The US wall would be to keep Mexicans (and others) out of the US. The US wouldn't care if a Mexican crossed illegally their southern border or took a boat to say Brazil. The wall is not to keep people in, but to keep people out who don't belong in.


A lefty finds space on Townhall?
This article is so poorly written, that even if Chapman had supporting facts, he would not have proven his point. If he had one. I only have one question. Why is this liberal phony, working for a liberal rag in Chicago, doing on the Townhall website? Aren't there enough left wing websites?

How do you think I feel:
"..although the very sight of that name makes me slightly ill at the stomach."


I have to see it everyday.

Bigotry? Get a life.
Liberal Lips:

Since when is it bigotry to demand that people that have no waited in line , etc be rewarded by residency and perhaps even citizenship?

You don't need troops (well lots of troops) on the border. You need two things--a biometric ID card and enforcement of employment. With no jobs or social services you won't have that much of an illegal alien problem.

You'll still have MS-13 types, etc but not the 20 million you have now.

And illegal immigration is directly related to peace in the states. Mexico where 65% of illegal aliens to the US come from has a crime rate of 13X that of the US. It is not lawyers and doctors from Mexico crossing the border illegally to lay down pinestraw and pick strawberries, it is poor, semi-literate peasants which is the same class of people that are the criminals in Mexico.

As for world hunger, not a US problem and most of that is caused by the governments where the hunger is located--man-made famine. And in the US, the study on hunger was flawed. Few people in the US are actually anything close to starving. Actually you have the opposite problem--lard a $$ es.

Economic interests don't want the flow stopped..so that is why you put them in jail and take away their assets--corporate and private. When the head of company ZZZ is in prison, his company the property of the US government and his family homeless, few others will risk following his fate.

Oh so now the earth is getting cooler again? And all those from the north will have to flee south to run from the ice? Okay. Is typing on drugs against the law? Because you are smoking something.

I am aware that liberalism is a mental disorder, but please!!!


The Amnesty Cabal is probing for weaknes
In reading Chapman’s rehash of repetitious let-market-forces-determine-which-laws-to-ignore-and-enforce apologia, one is struck by the lack of originality contained in his dronings. Not one statement that hasn’t been replayed ad nauseum by every other advocate for illegal immigration. Why then, would he waste his time and ours with this warmed over mush?

It occurs to me that the pro-amnesty camp is probing the secure borders camp for signs of weakening resolve. By posting this piece of recycled garbage that could have (and probably has) been written a dozen times before, Townhall is trying to confirm what it hopes to be a lessening of fervor on this issue. Presumably, once our energies are deemed to be spent, then the pro-amnesty cabal can attempt to ram the bill through again.

Because the secure borders people occupy the moral high ground on this issue, those who find it expedient to their political and business interests to support this pro-amnesty legislation are counting on winning this battle through attrition brought on by conservative voter fatigue.

If this bill was bad yesterday, it is still bad today, and will still be bad tomorrow. So don’t give them the victory through default. Keep the pressure on.

What do you anti-immigrationists think?

Akagi
Unfortunatly, I think you are splitting hairs on this. the wall would keep them in Mexico as far as the U.S. is concerned. There could be gates anywhere you want them, All the personell wuold be there for is to turn back the people that didn't want to go through the proper channels. Try to walk accross the border into Mexico along the border illegally and see what happens. Hope you can speak espanish.

Rupert
Read it and the only thing I can say is: Can you say bleeding heart liberal? That is the most rediculous piece of crap I ever saw.

eastlake joe
eastlake joe writes: Monday, June, 04, 2007 2:28 PM
Rupert
Read it and the only thing I can say is: Can you say bleeding heart liberal? That is the most rediculous piece of crap I ever saw.

Are you serious!!?? It's mathematics! What is liberal or partisan about mathematics!??

Ram it through again???
Sandman:

They haven't even tried to ram it through once yet. And according to the Washington Post, traitors like Saxby Chambliss--yes, "Senator" that is what you are--a traitor--claim that opposition to the bill has died down and that opposition to the bill especially in conservative quarters don't represent the views of the majority of Americans.

I don't care how much flak I take over this statement. If this bill passes and it becomes law, I will no longer consider myself a citizen of the United States. The divorce between me and this country and me and this government and me and this party will be final.


Who cares
First, I am not opposed to immigration. Second, I support a true guest worker program (e.g. like Taiwan's of the mid-1990s). Third, those that cross the border illegally are not immigrants, they are criminals.

And this so-called economist (who are almost always wrong) underestimates the impact of crime, the costs of education, impacts on healthcare which he just dismisses out of hand. Not to mention the quality of life issues. Few people in the US want to live in the barrio which illegal immigration has turned many communities in to.

I dismiss the economic issues. Again. If a business needs illegal labor to survive it deserves to go under. And again, America has basically become a giant brothel--selling out it's values simply for crass economic interests.

You people deserve what you get. Isn't there a phrase in the bible about what would a man gain if he gains the entire world but loses his soul? I think this applies to countries as well. The US is on that very path.


Akagi: Yes, ram it through again.
We may be splitting hairs over what constitutes an attempted “ramming,” but from where I sit, those pushing for amnesty attempted to ram this legislation down America’s throat. The fact that it hasn’t come to a vote yet is secondary under the circumstances. If it had and lost, the issue would be deader than it is now. The way things work on Capitol Hill, the officially tally of votes is anticlimactic and only takes place after the outcome is certain. Take my word for it, this bill will not be voted on until the Dems are certain it will pass. This bill was drafted in private, bypassed the usual committee process, was dropped on Congress with no time to read it initially, and was on a fast-track for a vote within mere days of being “unveiled” to Congress and public.

Rupert
What is rediculous about it is it operates on the assumption that if you are against illegal immigration that you think they are somehow less than human as in 1/10 thof a human that is pure BS! Its just another way to insert the race card and it is crap. I don't think anyone is less than human just because I don't want them comming here illegally. In mathmatics my friend, an equation based on lack of proper formulae is incorrect. No matter how you look at it, 1 plus 1 still equalls 2. Except when you are liberal.

Sandman
You are absitutly correct! The only thing I can't understand is how the government is getting away with not enforcing the laws we already have on the books. This, in itself is a violation of the law and the people blocking the enforcement should be arrested and tried under federal law for impedeing an officer of the law from doing his legal job. NUFF SAID!

The same stuff was said of your ancestor
Whenever your family came to this country - whether last week or on the Mayflower - there was some redneck who was already here who was whining about your immigrant ancestors bringing disease, stealing their jobs, etc. In reality, immigrants built this country and unless you are an Indian you are an immigrant too. Aren't you glad the politicians of your ancestors didn't listen to those whining rednecks then, and lets hope today's politicians don't listen to these redneck whines now.

Rupert
Well, I have a lot of American Indian in me and I say keep the illegal aliens OUT!

Liberty
That's funny, I've never heard of a republican Indian. In fact I don't think they exist - Indians are a nativist, collectivist people. And further, most Mexicans are part Indian. So if you are an Indian, you are coming out against your relatives.

Rupert
Number one lets get something straight. I was born and raised after more generations than I care to recount so I am not an IMMIGRANT. Check WEBSTERS for the deffination of IMMIGRANT!
Number two I still have relatives living in Ireland and England ( hence I'm always at war with myself) Who I would love to see come and live here, but only if they came here legally. I would be just as strongly against them as the hispanics and othrs comming accross our borders now.
And last but not least, like Liberty I have Indian blood from both sides of my family tree so whats your point there? The American Indians were one of the feircest boundary keepers in the world and I'm proud to say I'm related to them. NUFF SAID!!!

Liberty
I am 1/4 Shawnee with NOT A TRACE of Mexican Blood and a Republican.

Chapman is a MEGA-RINO!

Mexico's Southern Border is as heavily armed as it gets!

Rupert
You're an idiot.

Most people that are against this bill (including me) aren't against immigrants. We are against illegal aliens who broke the law and are breaking in line in front of legal immigrants that wait years or more for their visas and right to come to the US.

Oh and while this bill rewards those that broke the law, it will now punish those that have followed the law. Not a very American thing now is it?

And by the way, American Indians are immigrants too.

Akagi
They are immigrants only if you believe the ice bridge theory. It hasn't been proven enough yet for me.

Akagi
After one generation they are not immigrants by the true meaning of the word.They did not travel to settle here if they were born here.

Pawnee
p.s. Rupert...

Ever examine the relations between the Pawnee and Sioux in the mid-19th century as the Sioux pushed into northwest Nebraska? I guess the Sioux (or Pawnee) must have been killing their own relatives then.

How about the Apache and Navajo's relations with the Hopi? The Creek Confederacy and Cherokee? I guess they were all just one big happy family huh?


Indians
Landbridge, but even if they came from Europe (as some research suggests) or the Pacific (as other research suggests) they came from somewhere. They didn't simply appear in the Americas out of nowhere.

As for my use of the term immigrant, I am using it in the context of "we are all immigrants" meaning we all came from someplace outside of the present-day United States.

The Japanese (despite their creation myths to the contray) came to Japan from mainland Asia and displaced the original Ainu from much of the home islands (now mostly found only in Hokkaido). This fact doesn't stop Japan from enforcing it's immigration laws nor does it keep Mexico from "coming out against their own relatives" since Mexico defends its own southern border from illegal border crossers.

Akagi
Since you seem to believe that all life started in the east or middle east, how did it begin there? If you are going by the bible, even it talks of the people of I believe the dark or the dark tribes. Where did they come from. If they can just start there, who says it couldn't happen elsewhere? For instance, The bible says there were only ADAM and EVE they begat Cain and Able.Ccain and Able had offspring but where did their wives come from? Until I see some proof that the indians came from anywhere else, I'll believe the opposite. NUFF SAID !

Chapman
Gee - isn't it amazing how miraculously the 'invisible hand' moves to match third world, illiterate, uneducated peons to laborer positions in this country? Of course, when these third world poor, who have circumvented every domestic law in order obtain these positions, they will be willing to accept wages and working conditions a regular domestic worker would find unacceptable given his overhead, expenses and standard of living.

This is like purposely adding conterfeit money to the money supply. It not only reduces the value of everyone elses money (wages), but the additional costs of subsidizing the the other unfunded social costs of these workers and their families will stress this country's political, social and other economic/welfare support systems to the point of destruction.

Chapman's just another, 'if it's good for the market, it's good for America' fools. For his information, citizenship and the right to work in the US are earned - not to be given away by politicians who have no right to, just for their own selfish political benefit.

Akagi
Current science supports human ancestors arising in Africa--east Africa to be precise. From there they spread to Europe and Asia and then to North America, South America and Australia.

I believe the Bible has no more validy than any other religious text on the subject. Adam and Eve have no more (or less) validity than Pan Gu does.

And if you think that the American Indians just appeared in the Americas, you are mad.

Please then explain why no human remains, artifacts, etc exist (verified) before say 30,000 years b.p. while we have tools in Africa that go back to 1.5 million b.p. or so. Obviously humans (and pre-humans) existed for a long long time before they did in the Americas. Are you saying that until 30,000 years b.p. the Americas were empty and then humans simply appeared out of nowhere? Where were these humans before 30,000 years b.p.? Did "God" despoit them there? Aliens? Elvis? Or are you saying that they have existed as long in the Americas as they have elsewhere and if so then why are the Americas devoid of evidence of human occupation until that date?

You can believe anything you want. Some people believe in the Easter Bunny. You have the right to be an idiot. No one is stopping you.


Akagi
You probably believe we are evolved from the apes also. If so why haven't they found the missing link? One ape evolved into two intofour? I guess there was only one missing link so thats why they haven't found it.

No
Humans and apes have their own evolutionary history, but yes at some point both apes and pre-humans shared a common ancestor.

Still haven't explained to me why the archaeological record stops at around 30,000 b.p. in the Americas.


georgetwin
so george, you have crossed the mexican guatamalan border how many times? you seem to be talking about something you know nothing about. having driven from oregon to costa rica i can tell you the roads near the gringo border are clogged with arms, puntas del control, dogs, xray machines, scales etc. all the mexican cops have gringo guns and you can recognize their different state cops, federales and drug cops by the arms they carry. from hermisillo north to arizona there are multiple moving changing stops. however the southern mexican border out of chiapas is wide open. one night after border closing i went back and forth from salvador and honduras 3 times forging permitos de transito for my van cuz the regulars were drunk the blanks were in honduras, the typewriter in salvador, and back for the stamps and on the way you go. the real world is not found on talk radio. talk about soemthing you know not what you have heard. makes you look stupid. for the record in chiapas you can still buy tacos de barbacoa por cinco pesos. beats big macs with a stick.

i find all the chest beating about the wonders of gringolandia humorous considering the vast majority of you have never lived anywhere else. close minded ignorance is not attractive. but you know ethnocentric nationalistic nativist isolationist yahoo thinking is always based on ignorance so i assume you people cannot help yourselves. que triste.

Not me
Well GC:


Lived in Asia for a number of years so I guess you can not include me in the usual slur of "xenophobic yahoo." If I am xenophobic, I must be a strange one.

The fact is GC is that Mexico actually does enforce its own immigration laws. Entering the country illegally is a felony and violators can be sent to prison for 24 months for the crime.

I never made the claim that the border in the south was well guarded. I said Mexico enforces its immigration law. Try to do the things illegals do in the US--get housing, jobs, driver's licenses, etc as an illegal in Mexico and see how well that works out for you.

It is possible for me to get smuggled into Taiwan from China or into Japan from Taiwan. The coasts aren't crawling with border guards at either locale. But after getting in, you'd have issues getting housing, jobs, the ability to drive, etc. That's the point. Not how easy it is to cross the border.



Bush Derangement Syndrome
During the election campaign we kept hearing that the Dems had Bush Derangement Syndrome.
I now believe there really is such a thing only Bush is the one is deranged.
I wonder how many criminals and potential terrorists will be made legal since the feds have only 24 hours to investigate them before they get their Z Visa (which they can renew for the rest of their miserable lives, or ours)
Can you imagine Bush, Teddy Kennedy, most Dems in the Senate, RINO Repubs. and the liberal news media all teaming up against the American people in favor of these invaders? Did you ever think you would see this? We can't do anything about Bush or the Dems, but these RINO traitors must be made to pay the price come election day.

Scary

If the Democrats had not gained the majority, Bush's immigration bill might be sailing through Congress just as many other bad bills went through without a veto.

But, being in the minority, the Republicans are now telling Bush what they think about his first six years in the presidency.

Incredible how things turn out.

Chucky Schumer thinks he is so smart pulling out all the stops to make sure Bush's administration fails. In fact, he is doing the Conservatives bidding for them.

Thank you, Chucky.

Akagi
I won't claim to have the answer to that suffice it to say, I don't think everything about man has yet been found. I'll admit I don't know everything, but then neither does anybody else. If I am wrong then so be it. As to the Xenophobic remarks if they are directed at me you couldn't be further from the truth. I have friend that would tell you in a newyork moment I am not afraid to mix and live among all races and cultures. If you choose not to believe that ,then again so be it. It doesn't really affect me as to what you think of me as you are just a "handle" so to speak on the internet.

Bush
At this point the less that Bush can accomplish the better and if the Democrats help that along I say more power to them.


eastlake
No. The xenophobic remark was to GC, who seems to claim that anyone that opposes this bill (as I do) is a xenophobic yahoo that has never lived outside the US--and in my case this is 100% untrue.


Akagi
I'm glad as I have lived Or stayed in seven different countries and made good friends in all.

Al Qaeda is in America
How can President Bush refuse to secure our borders, enforce immigration law, and protect ports knowing Al Qaeda is here?

FOXNEWS-WASHINGTON — Al Qaeda is in the United States, former CIA Director George Tenet says, and he’s surprised there have not been more attacks on American soil.

“I do know one thing in my gut,” Tenet writes in his upcoming book. “Al Qaeda is here and waiting.”

Tenet, who served as CIA chief from 1997 to 2004, questioned how Al Qaeda hasn’t sent “suicide bombers to cause chaos in a half-dozen American shopping malls on any given day.”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/al-qaeda-is-in-america

John Konop
Of course they are, but never fear, the Decider has issued a Presidential Directive that he can declare martial law and suspend the Constitution, and he apparently believes he can do it all without consulting Congress.

Bush grants Presidency extraordinary powers
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55825

Bush grants presidency extraordinary powers
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55925

oops
The second link should have been titled,

Emergency detention plan: 'This way to the camps!'

About time to say
Liberty:

About time to take a line from Eric Cartman...

Screw you guys, I'm going home or in this case screw you guys, I'm outta here. Enjoy as the US transforms into something more in tune with the PRC than the USA. I wonder what the American PC term for Lao Gai will be?

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