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Friday, March 09, 2007
Chuck Colson :: Townhall.com Columnist
For the Sake of the Planet?
by Chuck Colson
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Joan Blades describes herself as, among other things, a “nature lover” and a “mother.” She is also a co-founder of the liberal activist group MoveOn.org and a regular contributor to the liberal blog The Huffington Post.

In a recent post, Blades wrote about an article she read in her local paper. It described a group that supports the kind of measures Blades expected liberals like Huffington Post readers to support: health care for children, “fair wages,” and flexible work schedules for moms.

What Blades found surprising were some of the comments that came into the paper’s website. One person “reasoned” that if he has to pay $25 for a dog license, why should parents expect help when they “choose” to have kids. Another commenter simply wrote, “Can’t feed ’em, don’t breed ’em.”

Of course, this is the Internet we’re talking about. Still, Blades felt compelled to refute the erroneous assumption underlying those comments, that “choosing to have a child is purely an individual act” and not “a contribution to society as a whole.”

Their response to Blades’s response was—what else?—more of the same. A “chunk of the replies” objected “to contributing to the wellbeing of children” because they did not want to “reward or encourage” “indiscriminate breeders.”

To be fair, many of the replies were supportive of Blades’s views. Still, there were enough people using terms like breed and critters, terms normally associated with animals, to prompt Blades to write another article.

This anti-natalism is not limited to liberals. A few years ago, at a dinner I attended, a conservative Christian advocated sterilizing poor women as a solution to welfare dependency. And today, leading immigration-reform groups have links to zero-population growth advocates.

The divide is not between Republican and Democrats or liberals and conservatives—it’s between those who regard children as a blessing and those who view them as, at best, a burden.

While Blades is right when she says that plain selfishness accounts for some of the hostility to families with children, there is something else at work here as well. As Catholic writer Erin Manning says, the belief that growth in human population should be controlled is “an important tenet of mainstream environmentalism.”

Environmentalists agree that “there are too many people on the earth,” and that repairing environmental damage requires “aggressive measures to limit and restrict human population.”

In contrast to the Christian idea of stewardship, which “wishes to conserve and protect the natural resources of the planet for the sake of future generations,” this viewpoint “wishes to eliminate future generations for the sake of the planet.”

This is only one example of the cultural message today driven home to Americans: that is, that large, or even medium-sized, families are an impediment to the good life. Even if the kids are not yours, their existence will have a negative impact on you—whether it’s higher taxes or global warming.

Blades was rightly disturbed by the sentiments expressed, but she should not have been surprised—not in a culture where being a “nature lover” and a “mom” is viewed as a contradiction in terms.

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About The Author
Chuck Colson was the Chief Counsel for Richard Nixon and served time in prison for Watergate-related charges. In 1976, Colson founded Prison Fellowship Ministries, which, in collaboration with churches of all confessions and denominations, has become the world's largest outreach to prisoners, ex-prisoners, crime victims, and their families.
 
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Blessings and Burdens
I've always found it strange that the people most able to afford a large family are usually those least likely to have one. In a poor or agrarian society children become workers and economic contributers at a very early age. They also take care of their parents later in life and the only day care available for children too young to work is grandparents. In America children to do not contribute economically until well into adulthood if at all and if they look out for you in your old age you're lucky. I suggest an IRA. The blessing children bring to our society of course is love nad anybody who was kids knows about the burdens.
The other part of this I keep thinking about is the overpopulation piece. When I was a younger Mexico city was a big place, but sleepy compared to New York or Chicago. I was very surpised to learn that Mexico city has become one of the biggest cities in the world over the past fifty years or so and Mexico now has a population of over 100 million. I wonder if American Catholics took the Pope as seriously as Mexican Catholis and didn't use birth conrol is America would have gained more than a 100 million or more souls in the past 40 years. How has this staggering population growth helped the average mexican?

The Irony is that
the people who believe in environmentalism and low population growth are being replaced by those who don't -- because the former aren't replacing themselves.

Divide IS between conservatives and libs
I have to disagree with Mr Colson, to a degree, when he says the divide is not between conservatives and liberals, but between people who see children as a blessing and those who see them as a burden.

I think that people whose worldview is liberal are more likely to be selfish, or better, self-centered, in a fundamental way. That self-centeredness would then tend to make a childless lifestyle appear more logical.

I think that people whose worldview is conservative are more likely to think about their actions and the impact those actions have on others, including producing and raising the next generation.

Of course, this is not a black-and-white division; there are self-centered conservatives and altruistic liberals. But it is sufficient to describe trends, and statistical likelihoods.

The success of the Left in propagating its view of the world is evidenced in the growing number of people who choose not to have children. It is certainly an easier lifestyle, in some ways.

The question is really more one of whether we are liberalizing ourselves out of existance.

PS--I couldn't fit "liberals" into the subject line. Truncating "liberals" to "libs" is not intentional and is in no way meant to imply some sort of disdain for their worldview.

Divide is between....
statists who believe that increasing the size and scope of the federal government is the answer to everything vs. those who believe in individual liberty.

division
Classic. Just classic. Ignore the fundamental points and label a view misaligned with the christian conservative stance as immoral. Let me clue you in Chuck.

Having children is about taking personal responsibility. If you can't take the personal responsibility for having kids, don't have them. Period. I don't want your kids, and no one should have the results of your indescriminate behavior pandered about as a political issue. I don't want my taxes paying for your kids. I don't want my kids growing up with your kids who haven't got parents that want them. These are the kids in general that cause problems for society later in life, are a drain on the government, and generally comprise the current and future welfare state. Their parents are breeders, and it should be a crime punishable by death to bring an unwanted life into existence.

Population controls are not necessary in a nation of individuals who accept personal responsibility.

By bringing an issue like this into the political arena at all, you legitimize it. You bring adgenda after adgenda into the political sphere before the altar of politics in the name of your god. It seems if you had true faith you would leave your personal convictions at the door, and act through the church, which is the true instument of divine intervention.

Instead you strip a party of it's power, pervert the message of true conservatism, invalidate the political process as a whole, disenfranchise countless voters into fractures based on adgenda, and otherwise lose whatever battle you try to wage by way of friendly-fire.

Back off the adgenda, get back to the principle. Let the church do the work it was called to do. Anything less renders the mission of the church ineffective, and the entity of the church an enemy of freedom.


Wow!
I wish I was half as smart as $!

Division II
Perhaps in responding to Blades' argument, the messengers massacred the message with callous rhetoric. And, although I wouldn't agree with everything that "$" said, I believe the basic premise holds true:

While choosing to create a child/family is a personal CHOICE, it has a societal CONSEQUENCE. Are we to be the kind of society that elevates personal liberty AND responsibility? Or, have we chosen to be the kind of society that allows one individual (call him "Paul") to make an irresponsible choice, and then require a second individual (call him "Peter") to PAY the consequence? (Yes, that is robbing Peter to pay Paul - and most of us can agree that such an arrangement is categorically immoral)

I, for one, do NOT want to bear the cost for raising someone else's children - nor do I want you to be required to bear the cost for raising mine. I want the liberty and freedom to raise my children - as soon as you (via the coercive confiscation of tax dollars and redistribution) pay for my children, I am subject to raising them as YOU see fit - and vice versa. That is an arrangement that a moral society should disavow.

Sorry Hillary, it does NOT take a village.

False Dichotomy evident here
I think people are missing the core of the problem pointed out by Chuck. The two worldviews at odds are naturalism vs the Christian Worldview.
Christians rightly understand nature and this world as part of the fallen state and hardly in a 'pristine' or noble condition.
The natural world is not a chilastic bambi playground of happy species cooperating in a native bliss.
Rather, the planet is in a state of disease and conflict and disorder, imposed by sin and the fall.
We live as fallen creatures in a fallen creation which groans and travails in pain, so to speak.
Even if man did not build highways and factories and abuse the environment, it would not become a paradise by virtue of our inertia.
As for the bringing of Children into the world ,it is not only an 'option' but the express will of God, who created this world for the purpose of his crowning achievement, ie mankind.
Naturalists have a disdain for man and woman's place in this world and have turned creation upsided down.

overpopulation is a lie.
be fruitful and multiply.

The crisis of underpopulation is hitting Europe with a veangance now. Read Pat Buchanan's book
"The Death of the West", for more data and statistics.

Peter and Paul
Who is Peter and who is Paul when it comes to todya's children taking care tomorrow's elderly. Even when you take social security and other government programs out of the picture, Somebody else's children will take care of you if you live long enough. Generational interdependence trumps rugged individualism. You may not wish to bear the cost for raising children other than your own, but taxes for public schools and other social programs now are cheaper than dealing with a generation of uneducated, malnurished criminals later.I don't want to bear the costs of raising other people's children, but there is a price to pay if I don't. If Paul doesn't pay to educate Peter's kids, Peter's kids will grow up to steal from Paul. If Paul pays to educate Peter's kids they might just grow up to engineer the roads and provide the gas stations for Pauls R.V. retirement dreams. They may just grow up to cure tha cancer Paul's wife got. Hillary is wrong about so many things. It may not take a village and personal responsibility is important, but were all in this together.

Look at the book
Here is a link to the book by Pat on the Death of the West and the consequences of zero population growth in Europe.

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/?item_no=8548X&p=1010575

$
You say, ". . .it should be a crime punishable by death to bring an unwanted life into existence." Upon reflection, are you sure you want to go with that? Do you want to add any qualifiers, such as who gets to do the wanting? After all, we don't want any unqualified wanters deciding matters of life and death.

Kodiak says it well
Indeed!

Human life is precious in the eyes of God, not because all parents are up to the task. It is rather the very task builds character in those who will humbly accept this check on their self will and ego.
Some 'unwanted' children have grown up to be our best writers, authors and musicians.
The sanctity of life does not hinge on the subjective will at a given moment in time, of any person, but is an inviolable truth.

$
Hear, Hear!

Truth vs naturalism…

‘Behold, children are a gift of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward.’ [Psalm 127:3]


This statement is independent of the attitude of parents. Are children responsible for the irresponsible behavior of their parents?

There is a vain philosophy generally accepted in this culture that reinforces our sinful obsession with self. This philosophy has infected the church, but where Christ rules through His Word and Spirit the church still stands for truth and therefore supports life and family.

The forces of darkness promote self above all else by deceiving men to believe a lie. This lie says that man is autonomous, unaccountable and without moral restrictions. When our children are exposed to this lie as if it were truth why do we wonder that they grow up as irresponsible men? The culture is promoting irresponsible behavior and the most innocent and helpless are suffering.

The existence of the practice of abortion among us answers the question of our view of children. Abortion is accepted because we as a culture believe that it’s best to not have an unwanted child. We see them as something less than a blessing and certainly not as a gift from God. We do no understand that there are worse things than having an unwanted child. Devaluing human life gives license for increased child abuse of all sorts.

At times the birth of a child is used of God to bring a person to his senses. Coming to realize that the universe does not revolve around me and that someone else depends on me can lead to self denial for the good of another.

Herein are the words of life: ‘For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?’ [Matthew 16:25-26]

Baron
There's something to what you say. I too agree that the conservative philosophy tends more toward supporting the family life and the procreation attendant thereto. Liberalism, with all its religious-like concern for the planet, the environment, abortion, the selfish lifestyle, etc., tends to avoid the hardship and sacrifice of offspring.

But there is a major segment of the population that falls in behind the lure of liberalism, simply for the substitute for personal responsibility it offers. How many women have consciously chosen to have kid(s) irregardless of whether the male is going to be responsible or not - many of them are not even capable of any responsibility. And how many men have looked at it as 'if the milk is free, why by the cow'.


Liberalism contributes mightily to creating this irresponsibility, whether by attacking Christianity, its underlying morality or simply making excuses for irresponsible behavior. In addition, the irresponsibility element is huge, simply because, as a society, we have subsidized it - and more and more subsidy is demanded all the time, even from the third world pouring in from the south.

Object to it and you are 'mean-spirited' and a whole lot of other names. What it comes down to is that the irresponsible are overwhelming the responsible, and it won't be long before the former outnumber the latter.

Everyone there will have moved here
In "West Side Story" there's a song in which two groups of Puerto Ricans sing competing ideas about the land of their birth -- nostalgia for the country they left, and reality of the country where they now live. At the end, the competing voices say, "I think I'll go back to San Juan! I know a boat you can get on! Everyone there will give big cheer! Everyone there will have moved here!"

Have you noticed that the result of the persistent overbreeding in Mexico City is that a rising tide of poverty is flooding over the United States borders and overwhelming our hospials, schools, neighbourhoods and places of business to the point of collapse?

If you had ever read any history, perhaps you'd understand that the way to break a siege and defeat your enemy is to overwhelm the enemy with masses of extra mouths to feed, shelter, clothe, transport, entertain, jail and bury.

And also if you had been paying attention in class, you'd understand that "It Takes A Village To [Rear] A Child" did not mean the CASH RESOURCES of a village -- it means The Community Standards of A Village are Vital In Properly Integrating A Child Into The Life Of The Community. Like the misunderstanding of the poem on the Statue of Liberty (whose proper name is "Liberty ENLIGHTENING the world" not "Liberty FINANCIALLY SUPPORTING the world") to mean "Show up and we'll pay." Believe it or not, it's not All About Other People's Cash.

History apart, I cannot believe that Christ would approve of people taking absolutely no thought about who will feed, clothe, shelter, transport, educate, entertain, jail or bury the children they bring forth.

Do you also encourage people to move into a house without considering how they're going to pay the mortgage, the heating bills, the repairs -- or keep it clean and sanitary? Would you tell people it's their Christian duty to take a job with no thought as to whether they're qualified to do the work, and with no idea of how they'll get there on time every day, who will watch the kids while they're gone, if the people at their new position speak or understand the same language, or even what that company actually does? Do you advise people not to plan a vacation -- just show up at the airport without money, tickets, passport, or any idea where they're going?

The admonition to "go forth and multiply" was given to a society not unlike today's Palestinians or Africans -- poor agrarian Bedouins with a very high mortality rate and the expectation that most of their children would die. It wasn't given to people who live in 400 square foot condominiums and pay $10,000 per year per child for a decent education, starting in Grade 1, that will enable those children to take their places in a seriously complex world for which the Mexican in his barrio is completely unprepared. In today's world, whether we like it or not, having children is a trade-off; and when you decide to have children you will have to give up many, many other things for what you have been brought up to understand are 'the best years of your life'. People who squall at the thought of being drafted for two years should understand that having a baby means you have been drafted for 18 years minimum, and there's no running to Canada to claim refugee status if you find that rearing that baby entails work you never understood you were signing up to do. It also means that if your baby is born with serious mental and physical handicaps, there's no Return Desk to hand it in to and get a refund or an exchange. It's yours. Forever. At your own expense of time, talent and treasure.

Yes, many of us make this decision and step forth in faith -- but we realize that it's going to mean sacrifice and that kind of sacrifice is much more easily done when you understsand what you are being required to sacrifice. I spent ten years travelling the world and hobnobbing with educated adults in far foreign lands,learning and listening and enjoying and absorbing with joy; when I decided to have children, I renounced all that for the foreseeable future, for a life of confinement and duty. That's a big step to take, and I did not take it lightly; and even after I had set foot on that irrevocable path, I found plenty of times to ask myself "What on earth gave me the idea I wanted to do this?" as well as all those times when I undersood full well. And believe it or not, your everyday responsibilities and the needs of all the other members of your family and community don't stop when you give birth. The new stuff has to be ADDED to the stuff you already have to do. Work-Life-Balance Be Damned. Take up your cross and trudge on.

In short, don't get all dewy-eyed about pregnancy, childbirth, chid-rearing and the responsibilities attendant thereto. It's hard work, it takes years, and you can't change your mind once you've taken on the job. And no, it's not my responsibility to pick up the slack when you drop it. Just as I won't do your job, won't pay your house payments or fix your furnace, won't buy your airline tickets, pay for your hotel and obtain your passport -- I'm not going to rear your kids.


Children = blessing from God
When I was single, I often asked the question “Why do people have kids?”

Now, having married a woman with two children from another marriage and with three subsequent grandchildren I understand God’s plan.

We are blessed with children because God is teaching us that our lives are not about us but about all the other people around us. Think, when we try to raise children in a proper fashion, how much time do we actually have to be self serving? Our lives are all about our kids. And this then bleeds over into other areas of our lives and we find ourselves living for others as God desires. At least we should be living for others.

“Love your neighbor as yourself.” -Jesus

“Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” -Jesus

And by the way...
...if you want to get rid of peoples lives because of "overpopulation",could you please start with your own? I'm sure that there are painless ways to do this.That way,you could set the example for the rest of mankind,to say nothing of saving the planet.

Any volunteers?

Hello? Is there anyone out there?

Nam 65-66
Why the hostility towards $? I went back and read $'s post after reading yours, and I still don't understand what you are so angry about. What I took from $'s post was that people should not indiscriminately have kids if they are not able to take care of them properly. I would think this is just good common sense.

The Other Side of the Problem
The Commodore & his Lady unto Townhall: greetings.

While we are discussing the bringing of children into the world, let us diverge (slightly) to the other end of the scale: when we shuffle off this mortal coil and in the words of Paul, "put on immortality."

The same arguments over childbirth are the same arguments over preserving ourselves when we are "terminally" ill.

theBaron rightly states that the issue is not necessarily between conservatives and liberals. To quote Lincoln: "Both sides read the same Bible, and pray to the same God: and each invoke His Aid against the other."

And in both ends of the spectrum, Grubby is correct when he states the siren call of the modern liberals and the abscence of personal responsibility; instead, we are encouraged to let the Community (the "Village", in Hillary's works) handle affairs. And "AudiR10" calls us to account in misquoting Hillary (and her ghost writer). It is not the cash ($) involved; we are charged with the responsibility to "train up a child in the way he (or she) should go." The message continues: in today's world, having children is a tradeoff (unfortunately).

To ValiantforTruth, the Commodore concurs in most of the comments expressed, but he adds one caveat: the sins of the fathers may well be accounted for in the lives of the children. And Scripture (especially the accounts of the Kings) can be used to illustrate it: though Ahab, as wicked as he was, repented at the doom pronounced by Elijah the Tishbite, the sins which he had committed (both alone and with Jezebel) came back to haunt Israel and Judah, in the lives of the children of Ahab & Jezebel. (But the Commodore digresses.)

Hillary, though, ignores one thing: the oncoming asteroid with the late great Planet Earth's name on it. Or similar cosmic phenomena, which happens to "the just and the unjust:" also, "the good, the bad, and the ugly." (Cue the movie theme.)

All in all, though, our actions (or inactions) do have consequences, both now, and in the lives of those who come behind us (should the Parousia be delayed).


Another but similar view...

Another view of the "children thing" comes from a little thought about democracy. If we really want to have one man, one vote in government to be "democratic" we had best have children to vote. We in the west are not and muslims and others are and in a generation or so they will out vote us and we'll be living under sharia law enforced by the courts (read clerics and mullahs). Mark Steyn's book explains it as does Mr. Buchanans.

Ed

For the sake of the Planet?
This is just about their style for the "global-warmests" to talk about eliminating people during their discussion of saving the planet. We don't even let ourselves think about killing our unborn, but on the other hand arn't we "breeding" the next generation of tax payers? The whole idea that married people were to get tax relief was that they are "breeding" the next generation of tax payers.

History and remembering it is important.

Please save the planet another way.

Also remember that if all 6 Billion people were in Texas each would have 1500 square feet to stand in (even children). If that happened the rest of the world would be uninhabited.

My Christian principles will still be there to save you and your children if your liberal government gets to euthenize your chlidren in the name of "saving the planet".

No thank you...

Elites like Colson just don't get it
What a pathetic, petty game this column plays. If you're not FOR big families, you're AGAINST them. If you don't want to support other peoples' children, you obviously hate kids. If you're not rich like Mr. Colson and can shrug off the cost and effort of kids, other taxpayers should be forced to help you.

Mr Colson apparently is so elite that he can't be bothered to look out from the limo to notice the teeming cities full of traffic jams, nor the unwanted children left to their own devices, nor the simple fact that WE DON'T PARTICULARLY NEED ANY MORE PEOPLE HERE! How hard is that to understand?

Since WWII our population has nearly doubled. 62 years is a short period in history. Would he like our cities to resemble those of India or China? I guess if you have a walled estate or high rise luxury apt you are above petty things like 1.5 hour commutes and having to wait in lines to get food.

Mr Colson needs a lesson on a thing called FREEDOM. You're free to have as many kids as you like. You're also free to pay for them and properly supervise and care for them. He also needs a reality check. Those w/o the means to do that should not be having them. How hard is that to understand? Not everyone has money for a nanny or even to one parent to remain home to care for them. It's this sort of detachment from the real America that has so many people despising the last two Bush administrations and the Republican elites in general.

I think this may really come down to something Mr. Colson dare not say. He wants mass immigration, like his pal Bush, to provide us with cheap labor. But he's worried about the numbers game, so he wants us to pop out more white Republican babies to counteract them.

Another timeframe to consider

Another reason to keep having children is to keep the Social Security system solvent. The SS "trust fund" is a political sham, there is no such thing. It is a ponzi scheme and, with our lack of statesmen being voted into offices from city to federal governments, a static population will indeed result in the SS system being bankrupt. Be selfish and procreate.

Besides children and grand children are our greatest gift.

Ed

Too simplistic
Most people here are being too simplistic. Alot of the christians think that 'god' will supply us with everything that we need. This is, of course, untrue, which is why there are so many third world nations where children and families are starving. These are also the same people who say 'overpopulation is a lie. be fruitful and multiply' while simultaneously voting to cut welfare and social programs for the poor. Their is a basic rule that keeps any organism from overpopulating. Bacteria divide at a logarithmic rate and would cover the world within days, except for limitations of nutrients and metabolic byproducts that keep their numbers down. Humans are subject to the same basic natural rules. If we overproduce but are not able to provide the resources to maintain the population; starvation and disease will result. This is evident in any population (animal or human) throughout history.

The usual pablum
As usual, Chuck Colson doesn't know what he is talking about and is as socially blind as Rush Limbaugh.

The divide is not between liberals and conservatives. it is between Globalists and Nationalists. The Globalists want a North American Union and eventually a one-world-government, and the Nationalists want to preserve America as is, and that means no multiculturalism, no Mexican flags, no illegal immigrants, etc.

Phony conservatives like the schmuck in the White House are globalists and should be drummed out of office as they are a danger to the country. Yet Colson, like most of the other blind Evangelical Christians, can't see this as he is too busy worrying about babies and abortions.

Kikkimay...
...please define "indiscrimetaly" and "properly" for me.Then maybe I can answer your question.

Can it be that simplistic?
"The divide is not between Republican and Democrats or liberals and conservatives—it’s between those who regard children as a blessing and those who view them as, at best, a burden."
Can it be that simplistic?


Visit: (OsiSpeaks.com) or (OsiSpeaks.org).

My two cents . . .
In late 2003 I watched a Democrat Presidential Debate (there were six of them at that time) and was waiting for them to start bidding for votes. I didn't have to wait long; the subject quickly switched to "Universal Day Care." I made the comment to a friend of mine that people should wait until they can afford kids before they have them. His response was -- I kid you not -- "That's genocide." Needless to say, I didn't take it very well and he is no longer a friend.

And that is the danger of what we are talking about here. Someone earlier said that it was better to pay to raise them than have illiterate criminals later; but you are in fact paying for illiterate criminals. They abound in South Central Los Angeles, Harlem, and all the other areas like that all across the country. Women are having ten or more kids (with no father around) because the government (AKA taxpayers) is paying for it. Now we are to the point that feeding and housing them is not enough; the government (AKA taxpayers) needs to pay for healthcare and daycare because parents can't afford it. Missing in all of this is one of the reasons parents can't afford it; the cost of government. Hopefully, by now, you see the cycle that we are in.

I am personally all for large families for people that want them just so long as I don't have to pay for it because, frankly, if I have to pay for it then I might as well be the one with the big family. While I don't advocate sterilization of welfare women, I do believe that a condition of the first check should be the insertion of a Norplant. All those that want to pay for large families can have one, or find somebody with one and help them out of your own pocket. Leave me alone.

martinbode
-I am personally all for large families for people that want them just so long as I don't have to pay for it because, frankly, if I have to pay for it then I might as well be the one with the big family. While I don't advocate sterilization of welfare women, I do believe that a condition of the first check should be the insertion of a Norplant. All those that want to pay for large families can have one, or find somebody with one and help them out of your own pocket. Leave me alone.-

Have you ever noticed that many people who are so adamently against abortion are also adamently against welfare? Does this seem like hypocrisy? I am pro-choice but by no means pro-abortion. I am also for social programs (social security, limited welfare), because in modern society; we cannot leave the homeless and the elderly to die in the streets (not to mention that this will increase crime).

*BTW, this is not directed towards you, but your ex-friend.

Funny that you should say that . . .
. . . but that's how he tried to explain away what he said. But the word that he used and (eventually admitted using) was "genocide."

Stop and think about that. The current line of thought is that this is the government's money and belongs to the poor. Any move to cut taxes or reduce the size of the government is demagogued as doing it "on the backs of the poor." In reality, it is not the government's money or the poor's money; it is the taxpayer's money and that is lost in the argument. Those people that are trying to live responsible lives and live within their means tend to have fewer kids because of the expense. Then they are told that they have to pick up the tab for those that don't lead responsible lives because (and this is the current thought) this money is owed to them. By doing it this way, we are subsidizing bad behavior.

And the cost of government has a lot to do with it. Europe has a lower birth rate than we do because they are more socialized; their high birth rates are from poor immigrants (many of them Muslim) who are largely dependent on welfare.

I find it interesting that, today, we absolutely have to have all of this because people will otherwise starve in the streets or crime will be rampant when, for most of the history of this country, people were magically able to take care of themselves. As far as crime is concerned, people in New York slept in Central Park during the summer. It wasn't until well into the 20th century that the crime rate changed that. Welfare is promoted as a crime deterrent, but the reality is quite different. If you go to any major city, there is a public housing project at the center of the high crime areas and, quite often, the police won't go in without sufficient numbers.

We're paying for that.

Yes, I adamantly against welfare as a way of life (I am not against helping someone who had something happen to them.) I am also against abortion as a means of birth control; that is the taking of an innocent human life. And, by the way, being pro choice is being pro abortion; that is the choice that is being advocated there. But what I am for is living a responsible life. That means taking care of those that you bring into the world. And if you can barely afford those kids that you have, don't have another. While there are those that have large families, most of them can't afford it and then become a burden to society, which is not right.

But we're straying from the premise of the article. The article stated that the argument against large families is environmental; my argument is that typically it's the taxpayers that have to pick up the tab.

Children don't just happen
How many people have sex because they are *trying* to have a child, compared with those who have sex because it feels good?

If it because law, and were broadcast from every media outlet, that if you have sex and produce a child, YOU WILL HAVE TO MARRY YOUR SEX PARTNER FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE and raise the child, or spend the rest of your life in jail, then, perhaps, people might be more responsible in their behavior. But way too many people today see sex as an entitlement, a drug and recreation they have a God-given right to, and that children are an inconvenient POSSIBLE side-effect. I see it every single day, multiple times a day. People who obviously got "stuck" with children they at some point decided they didn't really want. They give them to strangers to raise in daycare, school, anywhere but having to actually *raise* the children themselves. Then there are the welfare queens who produce litter after litter in order to milk the public for support. Such people exist, and are increasingly common.

DA:
I too am pro-choice; rape should be against the law, you should be able to choose with whom you have sex. But then you MUST BEAR the responsibility for the intended results of your activity. If you turn the ignition key on your car, you can't expect someone else to be responsible for what that car does. If you create a life, you can't just murder it, you have to be responsible for your actions and raise the child.

We have social welfare programs, and yet we still have the homeless, and elderly. How many of the elderly are now the result of people who had sex but didn't really want to have children? How many of the elderly who need social support are those who produced children they didn't want and thereby are alienated by them when they need the children? Sauce for the goose...

I've recently (say, yesterday) seen "homeless" males begging across the street from a business advertising for help wanted. This is after I passed a temp agency advertising for day labor. The problem of the homeless is not unemployment, or lack of social services, but the liberal programs that will not beat an education into children, will not fail them when they fail to learn, and will not teach them that they do not have a right to life, after all, but must earn it with labor of some kind.

As I type this, at 44 years of age, my 75 year old mother watches television in my living room. She's there because, after 3 weeks of dating, she and my father married for 50 years. Lots of fights, lots of hardship. Lots of sacrifice (like eating soup for a week so they could afford lunches for the kids; like working in subfreezing weather with a 100-degree fever and pants-full of frozen diarrhea to keep a roof over our heads.)
She's there because she didn't farm me off to strangers to raise. She's there because she sat me down and taught me the lessons I wouldn't learn in school until later years. She's there because she protected me and RAISED me, as did my father. She's there because I'm paying a debt I can never repay, and one I DO NOT EXPECT YOU TO PAY FOR ME.

There's an old SF story, "The Marching Morons" which outlined the problem of letting the unthinking masses breed and breed while the more intelligent and thoughtful (and responsible) didn't. That's where we're heading if we don't resume teaching maturity and responsibility in grade school.

correction
I tried to proofread...

"If it BECAME law" rather than "If it BECAUSE law"...

martinbode
I agree that welfare as a way of life does not work. We have to have education, jobs and childcare available. No one can support a family on minimum wage; let alone support a family and pay for childcare. Also, many people are not intelligent enough to go to college or have learning disabilities that prevent them from even making it through high school. How do we make accessible an income that is livable for the unintelligent or mentally handicapped?

Point made.
And all that is because your parents were taught to take care of their responsibilities, which they also taught to you.

Unfortunately, people today are taught that it's the responsibility of the welfare state (AKA taxpayers.)

Along the lines of an earlier thread on hypocrisy, have you noticed the people that cry and moan about $50 hammers and $1200 toilet seats for the military (or space program) have no problem with entitlement programs? They completely miss the fact that the government runs on a 400% overhead. 81 cents on the dollar pays for the beaurocracy. Perhaps if we stopped thinking like this, we could get back to single paycheck families . . .

Raising families on the minimum wage
This got slipped in while I was doing the last one and I HAVE to respond to it.

Anybody who is trying to raise a family on the minimum wage had better stop and think carefully about what he/she is doing wrong. Even a job stacking burgers isn't minimum wage for long.

And even if it was, that's not my problem. They should get an education or learn a skill.

Do people mean what they say?

One of the early posts by AudiR10 mentions that the Biblical injunction to "go forth and multiply" was promulgated in a lightly peopled, agrarian world where most families had large numbers of children expecting them to die. Those that did live started work at the age of six and lived to be only 40 or so, until tribal warfare, tooth decay or other common infections took them away.

Folks who get "dewy-eyed about pregnancy, childbirth and child-rearing" tend to skirt these facts. They also skirt the fact that human population is at least 20 times higher now than in 3,000 B.C. when those Biblical words were made public. Or that nearly every large plant or animal terrestrial or marine, except domesticated ones, have drastically declined in consequence of the spread of humanity. So much for the sacredness of God's creations other than human.

Does anyone really suppose that God created all creatures large and small with the expectation that every complex, virgin forest could be leveled in order to grow half a dozen species in rows to make 2 x4's and toilet paper; that nearly every wild animal should be obliterated to make way for cattle; and that every natural landscape should be altered forever to make way for more cornfields, tract homes and shopping centers?

Yes, there are many undeveloped areas visible by plane when you fly over North America. However, North America has only been inhabited by advanced people for a few hundred years. The parts of Asia and Europe that have been inhabited for thousands of years have had their former species composition changed beyond recognition; even beyond the capacity of natural scientists to reconstruct, except by examining pollen grains at the bottom of glaciers and lake beds. Three quarters of the planet is water and nearly all large marine animals have been decimated. Dozens of major species have been driven to extinction since 1800. The injuction to "go forth and multiply" might have been intended as a pep talk, without the expectation that it would actually succeed.

Even people who get "dewy-eyed," seldom live by the injunction. A reasonably healthy woman is capable of bearing a child per year for over twenty years. There is a higher percentage of healthy women now, even in the Third World, than there were 5,000 years ago, thanks to better nutrition and medicine. Yet next to nobody in the advanced world, even "welfare queens," raises 15 to 20 child families anymore. Only where most men and nearly all women are illiterate do birth rates approach those levels. The European and North American societies that are most advanced, mainly as a result of the 18th century Enlightenment, are being systematically menaced by Islamic fanatics who still keep their women barefoot, pregnant and stuck in the scullery, and adhere to a more primitive, aggressive religion than almost anything described in the Bible.

In short, people don't actually reproduce up to their biological potential unless they're ignorant.

Obviously, most people in the world have already effected a compromise among Biblical injunctions, economic necessities and practical realities. Perhaps it's time for reasonably intelligent men such as Mr. Colson to recognize this.

One of my posts ...
...got kicked off.No explanation.Flagged maybe?I don't know who by,but I can guess.

I had a large family,eight daughters and one son and no taxpayer paid for them,just me.All raised and on their own now and PAYING TAXES.Parochial schools and paid their own way through college and many posters on this thread (not all)should be so lucky raising your own 1.3 children.The welfare laws in this country came about through politicians elected by many on this site(not me).I have always voted AGAINST those politicians.Because someone has a large family does not mean they are collecting welfare,it simply means they have a large family,thats all.You don't want one? Don't have one.But you show your ignorance by criticising those who do.

And by the way,I was raising a large family and paying school taxes for some on this site who were sending their 1.3 kids to public school.

You're welcome.

Mis placed priorities
The world as we know it is finite. The main purpose of creation is as a stage for humanity. God created the world for the sake of mankind, not the other way around. What matters is where will your soul spend eternity? You won't be basking on the beach of some organic utopia in the decades ahead, but as we all will, you will grow old and die and decompose physically, while the soul will go to meet its Creator Jesus Christ our True God.
Nature Worship and Paganism are the end goal of the Environmental belief system.
It is a false belief system that denigrates the dignity of men and women and finds a false transcendence in the created order, ignoring the consequences of the fall.
We live in a fallen world and in time it will perish.

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

It's an important issue.
I'm not entirely clear on what all you were saying, but reproductive rates are important in the modern world.

It's considered essential that a society have at least 2.1 children per woman; that's considered the replacement rate. Less than that and the society becomes unsustainable. Many European countries are like that (France, Russia for example) and they are heavily dependent on immigration. That causes societal problems in the culture clashes that ensue.

But this world is nowhere near overpopulated; even India (which has the highest population density) has vast areas that are unpopulated.

martinbode
You were mentioning two homeless men begging for money with several 'help wanted' signs. My question is why are they homeless? Could they get or hold the job? Many people are homeless because they have serious mental disorders; schizophrenia, bipolar, severe depression. Without any type of family support these people quickly lose their homes and jobs.

-And even if it was, that's not my problem. They should get an education or learn a skill.-

What if they can't? What if they are learning disabled or mentally ill?

This always kills me when I hear pro-lifers (not that you are, martinbode), they are so adament that all abortion should be illegal but if you press them on the homeless and mentally ill, they often don't care. If we cannot take care of our disabled citizens now; why do we want to keep adding more to the pot?

My, my, my.
About people that are homeless because they have serious mental disorders; schizophrenia, bipolar, severe depression? Read my earlier post titled "Funny you should say that. . ." About two homeless people begging with help wanted signs?? I haven't a clue what you're talking about. That wasn't my post. And yes -- I am pro life.

But, okay. You're for a living wage. Santa Monica adopted a living wage of $12. The result, if you're interested, is that a lot of people lost their jobs because the work they were doing wasn't worth $12 and many of those businesses left the city.

But this is about raising families. And in Santa Monica, $12 won't cut it. I'd hate to have to raise a family (of even 2.1) on that living wage. Perhaps it should be $15. That comes out to roughly $30000/year. But then, most places in Southern California (especially Santa Monica) that would be tight. $20 (40000/year) would be doable. $25 would be more comfortable. And if you want a large family, then you'd better go $30 or maybe $40 just to be safe.

Now that you've got a living wage up around $80000/year, think about the prices that would have to be charged to sustain it. You're talking about $20 Big Macs. At least.

But then, Big Macs are politically incorrect. How about milk at $25/gallon? Or more?

Yes, I know. That's ridiculous. But that's where this line of reasoning gets you. What's fair? What's enough? Who's to say? Certainly not the poor guy who's business gets hammered because somebody thinks that he/she needs to be compassionate.

How about this? We have a low minimum wage because that makes it easier to get a job when you're young (like maybe a teenager or early twenties.) While they're working that job (and they don't have a family yet) they can continue their education or go to a trade school, then by the time they're in their mid twenties, they can get a job that allows them to raise a family.

And if they're too irresponsible to do that, maybe they shouldn't have a family.

martinbode
That is why I could never be a libertarian. The total lack of social responsibility.

I agree with you, up to a point. But the bottom line is that some people cannot take care of themselves or provide for themselves and those are the people I am talking about. I am not talking about those people who would rather sit at home smoking pot and drinking vodka rather than finding a job and getting an education. I am talking about the people with physical and mental disabilities that cannot take care of themselves.

???
Then, assuming you reread my previous post, there's nothing to argue about.

In 1959, my parents bought a little starter house. Two bedrooms and a den, 1 and a quarter bath, one car garage. $15,000.

Today, that same house goes for roughly $600,000. What happened?

Number one was the Great Society. The Federal Government was going to wipe out poverty. Part of that was Aid to Families with Dependent Children. That was a great program. The unintended message to angry teenage girls (I'm sure that nobody here knows any of them) was that they too could have their own apartment and a check from the government. All they had to do was have a child out of wedlock. And once they got there, what to do to get a bigger check and apartment? Have more kids out of wedlock. But don't ever marry the father; then you lose it all. And, every four years, don't vote for that guy, he'll throw you out into the street and you'll starve.

Then we had Keneseyan Economics; if the economy slows down, just pump more money into it. If you remember the '70s, that's what was going on.

The problem is that whenever the government gets involved in things, it tends to create problems rather than solve them. Then you have additional problems that the politicians feel they have to deal with, with more unintended problems, and it becomes a vicious cycle. That's what I'm arguing to stop.

And no, I won't run for President, so don't ask. I don't have the temperament. I would, however, make an excellent Benevolent Dictator for Life.

martinbode
-benevolent dictator-

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Not at all
I'm neither an ox or a moron.

breeders
'Breeder' is a term used by homosexuals to denigrate heterosexuals.

In awe of thy word
What is needed by that small number of men and women who still fear God and tremble at His Word is to know and find the very Word Of God, which we still to this very day have at hand.
There has been a lot of tampering and changing of the so called New translations of the Holy Bible.
Without a firm foundation, we are so vulnerable to the perennial lie of satan, 'Yea,hath God said?'

http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/home.html

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