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Thursday, November 27, 2008
Christopher Merola :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Is the Separation of Church and State?
by Christopher Merola
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With this year’s Thanksgiving holiday at our door, it is fitting that we ask an important question that has so much to do with our Constitutional liberties: What is the Separation of Church and State?

Why is it fitting to ask this question as we approach the Thanksgiving holiday? Well, it’s precisely the Thanksgiving holiday that reminds us of the origins of the phrase, separation of church and state.

In 1620, a group of Christian pilgrims known as the Separatists washed ashore in what came to be known as Plymouth, Massachusetts. They first left England to escape religious persecution there. They landed in Holland but realized Holland was not a place that allowed their faith to flourish. They set sail again; this time for America.

When the pilgrims set up their colony in Plymouth, Massachusetts, they soon employed a policy that came out of their own struggles for religious freedom. They employed the first American policy of a separation of church and state.

This may seem like a counterintuitive decision for a group of deeply religious people. However, the Separatists knew full well that when the power of the church is placed under the control of the government, the government then begins to mandate its own sanctioned religious practice. The Separatists had endured the religious persecution of the state in England and wanted to ensure that no such persecution would occur in America. Unlike the Puritans, who believed in establishing some form of a Theocracy, these Separatists, being true to their name, decided to separate the two entities of the church and the state so as to allow the free expression of religion to flourish. That is precisely what happened. Early America in the 1600’s saw many religious groups and sects set up colonies that were specifically designed for the free expression of their religion without government interference. That is what the separation of church and state is really all about: keeping the government out of the church’s business.

Fast forward to the writing of our nation’s Bill of Rights in 1789. Founding fathers like Patrick Henry and James Madison knew that allowing a mandated government religious practice would stifle religious expression in the new nation. They decided to embrace what is the most harmonious balance between the federal government and the church that the world has ever seen. They wrote the First Amendment of the Constitution.

In the First Amendment we see the balance between the federal government’s role in protecting religious practice and not coercing it. The First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees all Americans the freedom of speech, religion, press, petition and assembly, has this to say about religious practice: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

The federal government cannot mandate a religious practice, nor can they prohibit religious practice. Unfortunately, in the last few decades we have seen many judicial rulings that demonstrate a desire to uphold the establishment clause of the First Amendment at the expense of the free exercise clause. This is completely contrary to the purpose of the First Amendment and a violation of it as well.

The first major case that undermined the balance between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause occurred in 1947. In Everson vs. Board of Education the Supreme Court, led by Justice Hugo Black, an FDR appointee and member of the Ku Klux Klan, reinterpreted the meaning of the First Amendment of the Constitution. This decision set in motion an unconstitutional chain of events that has undermined our First Amendment liberties ever since.

Just what did Justice Black and the other FDR appointees to the Supreme Court do? They hijacked a phrase used by President Thomas Jefferson, “separation of church and state,” found in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association (1802). Jefferson’s letter was actually used by the court to limit religious freedom.

By taking completely out of context the phrase used by Jefferson in his letter, "separation of church and state," the Supreme Court ruled that the freedom of religious expression in the public square was a violation of the “separation of church and state” found in the Constitution. This is an astounding ruling, as the phrase “separation of church and state” is not even found in the Constitution.

In 1947, the Supreme Court actually used Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists as the basis for their decision, even though his letter is not Constitutional law. This is another example of the Progressive Bait and Switch tactic at work that I spoke of in my last article with Townhall.

Another interesting fact concerning Jefferson's use of the phrase, “separation of church and state” is its true meaning. Thomas Jefferson used this phrase as nothing more than a metaphor to express the First Amendment’s role as a protector of religious expression in the public square. So even if Jefferson’s letter was Constitutional law, Hugo Black and the other FDR appointees on the Supreme Court still misinterpreted the meaning of Jefferson’s letter and the separation of church and state.

In his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, President Jefferson said he believed there was a "wall of separation" in the Constitution that was designed to keep the government from interfering in the affairs of the church, not a wall to keep free speech out of the public arena. Thankfully, the Supreme Court finally clarified what Jefferson truly meant in Lynch vs. Donnelly (1984) when they said that the phrase “separation of church and state” is nothing more than the opinion of Thomas Jefferson, a “euphemism” as they put it, not Constitutional law.

While the 1984 case was a breath of fresh air to those who love liberty, the damage of the 1947 case has led to other terrible decisions that defy logic, reason and the Constitution itself. In fact, the 1947 ruling, in spite of being inaccurate and unconstitutional, has become part of the American collective consciousness.

In what has become the most infamous Supreme Court ruling regarding religious speech, Engel vs. Vitale (1962), the Supreme Court reinterpreted the meaning of the establishment clause in the First Amendment and misused its authority to ban the free exercise of religion in schools. This is the famous school prayer case.

According to the Supreme Court in 1962, the free exercise of religion in school somehow violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. The founding fathers would be up in arms to hear that free speech was now censored in the name of protecting the establishment clause.

While it is true that American students who do not want to pray in school should not be forced to do so, it also true that those who do desire to pray should not be denied their First Amendment right to do so. There is a balance in the First Amendment between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. It must be upheld in order for liberty to abound.

Where do these liberal judicial activist judges get this bizarre and erroneous interpretation of the First Amendment and the separation of church state in the first place? Looking back in American history, we find that this same misguided interpretation of the First Amendment was actually the vision of Roger Baldwin, the founder of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) in 1920. Baldwin, it is important to mention, was a member of the Communist Party of the USA.

It was Baldwin’s vision to remove all references to God and religion from the public square, even though the free expression clause of the First Amendment is clear as day. Starting around the 1920’s, a major reinterpretation of the meaning of the First Amendment and the Constitution itself began to make its way into the colleges and universities of the USA. It is this time in history that colleges and universities begin to teach that the Constitution is a “living document;” one that changes with the times.

Regardless of the opinion of radicals like Baldwin, it is important to remember that all Americans do have the Constitutional right of religious expression in the public square as long as the federal government does not coerce that expression. Ironically, what the Supreme Court did in 1947 and 1962 was coerce the limiting of religious expression, in keeping with Roger Baldwin’s dream. As such, the First Amendment rights of all Americans have been threatened and even violated in some cases, because the Supreme Court embraced the opinion of a man who was a member of the Communist Party of the USA, not the Constitution of the United States.

Finally, after more than forty years of cognitive dissonance concerning the free exercise of religion, the Supreme Court re-established the true nature of the First Amendment in Board of Education of Westside Community Schools vs. Mergens (1990). In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the rights of all students to voluntarily pray in school, form Bible study groups and express their religious beliefs provided the government, including government paid officials (i.e. teachers, counselors), do not coerce that religious expression. Yet, even with the Mergens case re-establishing the balance between the establishment clause and the free exercised clause, the damage of the 1947 and 1962 cases still lives on.

Let’s consider the 2002 case of Kala Brotos, a five-year old kindergarten student from Saratoga Springs, NY. Before eating her lunch, little Kala simply prayed out loud and gave thanks for her meal. Her teacher then scolded her before the entire the class, claiming that Kala violated the separation of church and state – Roger Baldwin’s version, that is. The teacher even claimed that Kala committed a “crime against humanity.”

Well, a crime against humanity was indeed committed -- against a little five year-old girl -- who simply gave thanks before her lunch. If this is not tyranny, I don’t know what is.

Take a closer look at our culture today. The propaganda concerning the First Amendment is staggering. Each year thousands of students are suspended, harassed, receive lower grades on their term papers, or even arrested for simply expressing their deeply held religious beliefs in the public forum. I know this personally having endured the discrimination and bigotry of liberal professors during college and graduate school. Such behavior is against federal law. It is called belief discrimination and it occurs more often than you think.

If we take a closer look at just what the Constitution really says, we will see that the religious practice of Americans is the choice of each citizen and cannot be censored even in public. The government cannot mandate religious practice, nor can the government deny that same practice. That is the balance of powers spelled out in the First Amendment. If we fail to maintain that balance then we as a nation are no longer truly free.

When we give thanks this Thanksgiving, let us remember the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said, “The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time.”

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About The Author

Christopher Merola is the Political Director for Political Media, Inc, a political advertising and public relations firm in Washington, DC.

Cavell 12/1
The problem with these so-called transitional fossils is that there is no evidence that they are not merely stand alone extinct species.
Tiktaalik rosae probably did not give birth to a crocodile, but we don't know. Sure its arm like limbs for front flippers (we don't really know what the back end was like due to a lack of fossil evidence) probably helped it survive by enabling it to stabilize itself in shallow waters thereby avoiding larger predetors and making small shallow water life easy prey. However, it did eventually become extinct. What would an evolutionary biologist think about a fossilized seal? Of course in the absence of the knowledge of a species of seal. Obviously a transitional species that could push itself up and climb out of the water. The question of a fish giving birth to a frog or a gorilla giving birth to a man is still out there. We don't know if there is a mechanism by which this happens and the theory that it does skips that detail. Granted things are extrapolated from observable changes within species and similarities between other species. However, though the leap of faith seems to you to be ever so small it is still a leap. This is not to suggest that scientists not attempt to solve this riddle. They should and they may. If or when that happens Darwinian evolution should be the exclusive theory espoused in biology classes. Until then let's explore all of the possibilities. After all why close our minds?

When Churches accept money
from the gov. to spend on themselves, it means they have sold out GOD and turned their backs on him. Which the original baptists refused to do. Oh how the mighty have fallen....

Cavell 12:20 am #3.2
Dr. Diamond's assertion in the study as it relates to Japanese society is that since 1972 and going through 1995 this 23 year period has seen a massive explosion in the availability of pornography. During that same time period violent sex crimes and even arrests for abherant sexual offenses such as indecent exposure have dropped significantly. If his numbers are correct it is more than a significant drop it is an amazing drop. The other societies he studied showed nothing like the drop in sex crimes as that of Japan. Some stayed the same some showed very slight increases and some showed moderate decreases. My concern with this study is that it appears to be set up as a post hoc ergo procter hoc argument. Because the incidence of sex crimes decreased after the uptick in availability of pornography that must be the cause. Well, we could make similar claims about the auto export business in Japan as well. Japan's auto export business was very small in 1972 compared to today's massive market. If I remember the stats correctly they were exporting a few hundred thousand cars per year in the early 70's. Over the ensuing 30 year period those numbers have grown into the millions of cars annually. I could set up a pretty good post hoc argument that car sales abroad must have caused the sex crime rate in Japan to decrease. That doesn't make it valid. He dismisses several possible factors in the study for somewhat gratuitous reasons. Changing mores, reluctance of prosecutors to charge, economic growth, etc. If we could rightly conclude his study as accurate, then we should be saturating the airwaves, newpapers, children's books, every avenue of public expression with porn. Then sex crime would be a thing of the past. Something tells me that there was a flaw in the set up for the study and there were other societal influences at play.

Cavell 12:20 am #3
Concerning Ted Bundy. Perhaps. Except that Bundy claimed that pornography led him into a mind set that opened him up to violent outbursts against women. Eric Rudolf didn't claim that religious materials set him on a bombing rampage. He personally felt that abortion was murder and set himself up as judge, jury and executioner for those who administered it. While in the media Rudolph was portrayed as a right wing Christian nut case, this is more from speculation that Army of God members and other radical so-called Christian sects may have aided him during his time in hiding. After his capture he did receive supportive letters and offers of financial aid from some of these whack jobs. These and other more traditional Christians often wrote him sending him Christian literature and Bibles according to Rudolph trying to "save my soul". He told interviewers that he didn't want to seem ingrateful and appreciated the sentiment of these well intentioned people but that in all honesty he would much prefer reading Nietzsche. Now, you can't get much farther removed from the Bible than the man who proclaimed "God is dead."

Pathos57
And that's why I didn't particularly want to take this all that seriously. It involves a lot of writing, multiple posts, and at the end of the day, it's not going to change anyone's mind. I'd rather have had fun with it, but you started tugging at the heartstrings of my history major soul and forced me to get at least halfway concerned about credibility for a second. Five posts later, can I just go back to trolling?

kleindo2, 4
Truth be told, I'm honestly not sure why we're debating. My initial point was that the Christian right tends to thoroughly enjoy trying to legislate its moral values; porn was an example. Do some non-religious groups object to some of my examples? Certainly, and I even said so, pointing out first-wave feminists with porn. What we're doing right now is what can be done with those types of objections; debate them, back and forth, with evidence, logic, reason, etc. Can the same be said for religious-based arguments? There's my point, right there; if someone points to the Bible as the basis for their argument, there's absolutely no way to refute it, much less debate it. A lot of these are small issues, but they have large consequences. I've used the condoms-in-Africa example several times. Don't you agree that such topics deserve a vigorous examination before we sign off on them? Can they really get it when the objection is solely rooted in a person's understanding of God's will?

kleindo2, 3
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about in a second, after I ask if you really mean to suggest that the average porn viewer is just as unbalanced as Ted Bundy. Wouldn't that be a bit like me suggesting that people shouldn't read the Bible because it prompts them to bomb abortion clinics? Anyway, here we go, University of Hawaii: "The concern that countries allowing pornography and liberal anti-obscenity laws would show increased sex crime rates due to modeling or that children or adolescents in particular would be negatively vulnerable to and receptive to such models or that society would be otherwise adversely effected is not supported by evidence. It is certainly clear from the data reviewed, and the new data and analysis presented, that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan, the United States and elsewhere has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims." His name's Dr. Milton Diamond, and the paper was titled, "The Effects of Pornography: An International Perspective".


kleindo2, 2
Pathos apparently wants me to take this all seriously, so I guess I'll bite for now - though I'm only going to get to about half, since I actually have to get up for work. Yeah, I actually have been on porn sets; a former girlfriend did make-up for three different studios out in California, and I can promise she wasn't receiving healthy paychecks, nor did she have a vested interest in maintaining the veneer of fun and games and cooperation. It was a job like any other. She never worked a twelve-hour day in her life. I'd say easily 75% of the people I met through her smoked pot, but then, so did I, so what do I care? I notice you're still dodging my earlier questions related to that, by the way.

You're also not giving me much evidence for what you claim. There's a lot of, "one woman says," or, "a former porn star asserts," stuff. Let's have names and actual quotes, because then I get to come back at you with names, quotes, and overwhelming numbers of my own.



kleindo2
"That is no fossil link from fish to frog to turtle to dog to horse to monkey to human exists. There is a genetic hinderance from one species producing another. In that sense Darwin makes a leap of faith to connect species adaptation for survival to the production of new species through this process. I see little difference between filling in the blanks with assumption for God on the one hand or Darwin on the other. Incidentally, Darwin was a practicing Christian."

Go look up Tiktaalik rosae, the thrinaxodon, Ambulocetus natans, and of course good ol' Australopithecus afarensis. Species jumps. The assumptions evolution makes are assumptions based on documented, observable evidence, not assertions made on faith. There's a very big difference.

And, again, why is this so hard to understand? Evolution's not fact. It's a theory. It's the best natural explanation we have right now, and so far no natural evidence has contradicted it. That's the fundamental difference between science and creationism; evolution says, "We're pretty sure, but we're not signing off for good until we can absolutely prove it." Creationism says, "We know absolutely, but we can't prove it." There's an inherent difference there, and one approach simply isn't science.


Kleindo2
My goodness Kleindo. What gives you the right to an opinion? According to Cavell, you've never taken drugs or been on a porn set. You've probably never microwaved a baby, had an abortion or committed murder either. I couldn't resist making light of some of the spurious invectives thrust upon you. While I don't subscribe to all of your assertions, I admire the tact, diplomacy & logic you apply to your argument. Your discourse with Cavell has been a revealing glimpse into the character of you both.

Cavell 2:57
Since you apparently have been on porn sets, which you clearly implied in your response, perhaps you can verify the high numbers of drug abuse amongst participants. According to sources within the industry 75% or higher abuse drugs. The 12hour shoot may not be the norm but according to those who have been there it is not uncommon. You choose to believe those who remain in the industry who are collecting healthy paychecks from the industry and therefore owe their livelihood to it. They have a vested interest in maintaining the veneer of fun and games and cooperation. According to one woman who escaped the hold the industry had over her, porn stars are actors and practiced liars skilled at giving a positive impression of what they do.
Evidence indicates that breaking the addiction to viewing pornography is more difficult than kicking cocaine. One prominent porn addict attributed viewing pornography on a regular basis with his murderous outbursts. That claim was made on death row within the final days before convicted serial killer and confessed porn addict Ted Bundy was executed.

The facts...
Darwin's Evolution has many so problems that even Evolution Scientists admit it is so.

Firstly, Darwin's Evolution defies natural law. The 2nd Law of Thermo-Dynamics states that all matter breaks down and devolves over time. It devolves, it does not evolve.

Secondly, discoveries made in molecular biology have shown that every living cell contains an amazing amount of intelligence.

Every human cell contains enough intelligence to replace the Pentium processor in your computer.

Darwin's Evolution is just not reality. What is reality is adaptation (sometimes called micro-evolution), which is change within a species, not change of a species (macro-evolution) as Darwin speculated.

Cavell 2:57
I did not say that there was no evidence for evolution. On the contrary, I said there was evidence that within species evolutionary changes have taken place. However, there is no evidence that evolution OF species has occurred.
That is no fossil link from fish to frog to turtle to dog to horse to monkey to human exists. There is a genetic hinderance from one species producing another. In that sense Darwin makes a leap of faith to connect species adaptation for survival to the production of new species through this process. I see little difference between filling in the blanks with assumption for God on the one hand or Darwin on the other. Incidentally, Darwin was a practicing Christian.

Cavell 5:09
I've enjoyed watching your discourse with Kleindo2 and was merely interjecting that you are choosing specious arguments, long on assertions without substantive objective data or facts (i.e., no one does PCP, or porn is not harmful to society because the women you date enjoy it, etc.).

I chuckled over your assertion that you have "more than a few Christian friends." The stereotype of the racist that claims friendship with a few from a group they choose to marginalize comes to mind. You refer to the Christian right as "Bible-thumping crazy". Your bigotry is showing. Finally, you conclude your post with an assumption and these statements: " 'Bigots and racists always justify their hatred,' as you said. I couldn't agree more, which is why I wish you lot took the Bible a little less seriously; we'd have a lot less easy justification." You are justifying your hatred of Christians in the same way that every bigot justifies hating any group & you are being presumptive in your aspersions about my personal beliefs. Being an atheist, I thought you would realize that not all arguments against societal ills such as porn & drug use are rooted solely in the realm of Christian doctrine or dogma. Whether your "black little heart" as you refer to it cares or not, is immaterial to me. The fact that you choose to spend time rationalizing your choice to argue your case poorly rather than give the effort to back up your assertions is anyone's guess. If it is just to bash Christians, it's an old tired drum of prejudice that you beat. You don't have to be "Bible-thumping crazy" to be an extremist filled with hatred & the misguided opinion that you alone are right.

Kleindo2
I found this study rather interesting in regards to pornography. Granted, I am not basing my opinion about porn upon the likes or dislikes of those that I date, so you will have to forgive this being vicarious information rather than empirical in nature. ;)
"Across the seven studies in which sexual activity after viewing pornography was examined, a relatively strong effect was found. Results revealed that after viewing pornography, criminals were more likely than non-criminals to perform a sex act. " - Dr. Jill Manning
( Allen, M., D’Alessio, D., & Emmers-Sommer, T. M. (2000). Reactions of criminal sexual offenders to pornography

Pathos47
"You're justifying using personal attacks and there's no getting around that and, frankly, it weakens your arguments."

Which would break my black little heart if I chose to care about it. Could you be talked out of your faith? Doubt it. Thus, strong arguments, weak arguments, what's the difference? You're going to see things exactly how you want to see them, and no amount of debate will change that. When you've got the God-colored glasses over your eyes, perfect arguments aren't any more effective than terrible ones.

Oh, and for the record, I was referring to the Christian right, not Christians as a whole. As I've said before, I actually have more than a few Christian friends. But, as I've also said before, they're not Bible-thumping crazy, so I certainly wouldn't include them in this.

Incidentally? "Bigots and racists always justify their hatred," as you said. I couldn't agree more, which is why I wish you lot took the Bible a little less seriously; we'd have a lot less easy justification.

Cavell 5:15
Your response to my question regarding the ad hominem approach you have chosen in your posts to Kleindo2: "Probably because the tried-and-true slippery slope argument is just as useless as personal attacks, but I might as well fight fire with fire." According to you, therefore, the "slippery slope" argument has the same validity (none) as personal attacks. While I could argue that two wrongs don't make a right, that would mean I aggree with your assertion that the two approaches to an argument are equal. However, it is nothing more than equivocation on your part. Certainly, there are historic examples of the validity of the "slippery slope" argument, just as there are historic examples of religious prejudice, discrimination and the results thereof. Bigots & racists always justify their hatred. By your posts, it is obvious that you broadbrush Christians with negative statements such as "that's not the way YOU guys like to do things" (emphasis mine). You're justifying using personal attacks and there's no getting around that and, frankly, it weakens your arguments.

kleindo2, Addendum
And yeah, we are getting away from the point of this thread. My initial argument was that, if you want to debate these issues, I'm all for that. I agree with you, many make arguments on -some- of these issues not from a religious perspective - prayer in school and creationism are ones that only come from the religious, and I haven't seen a serious non-religious anti-porn argument since third wave feminism hit.

Essentially? You can't legislate the Bible. That's all I'm saying. Society progresses and morals change.

kleindo2

Reducing societal costs of prosecution isn't the only reason to legalize drugs, unfortunately. There's also the fact that most of them are inherently no more harmful than already-legal substances. You know people who've destroyed their lives over their need for pot? I find that hard to believe, on the one hand, given its non-addictive nature, but on the other hand, I also know plenty of people who've destroyed their lives through alcohol abuse. I also know plenty of people who can both have a drink or two, and smoke a bowl or two, without going all nutty. Tell me why one's legal and the other isn't.

You're more than welcome to argue anything you like from a non-religious base. My overall point was that as soon as you bring religion into it - as you did with creationism - it immediately becomes an argument from faith, which is simply not how this country ought to be run. Unless you really do think God's up there picking sides, and wants the French to lose and us to win. Talk about absurd.

Kleindo2
You missed my point regarding creationism; it's not science because it relies on a supernatural explanation. Among many other reasons, by the way. Evolution is still a theory precisely because it can't explain everything yet. When it can, it'll become law. Until then? Theory. Creationism, on the other hand, takes what we don't know, and slaps on a supernatural explanation for it all and says, "Done!" There's no merit to discussing it IN A SCIENCE CLASSROOM because it's not science. Go nuts in a philosophy or theology classroom, though. It's perfectly fine in there, and I wouldn't argue against having it. Incidentally? You need to do better research; there actually is a body of evidence for evolution, we've just held off on asserting that we know how every single aspect of it works. Something you guys ought to try.

Porn? C'mon. You really should investigate the testimony of those who love their jobs within the business and have made a lot of money with it. I can tell you've never been on a porn set, by the way, with your whole "12 hour shooting days" thing.

Cavell 5:15 am
Your argument that because Intelligent Design is not provable it is not science also applies to Darwin's theory. While certain evidence points to evolution within species, evolution of species has no evidentiary basis. It is a pure extrapolation of the natural process of adaption in which species adapt to their changing environment. You might call it a leap of faith. The intent of my statement was not that if we haven't got it right to throw up our hands and say "God did it." and stop trying. The point was that if man is able someday to describe the exact process by which we came to be, whether it be Darwin or some other heretofor unknown theory, it will be because we finally discovered God's method. Now to bring that back to the point of Chris' article, discussing the shortcomings of Darwin's theory in the light of a possible intelligent designer discriminates against no one and may cause students to critically examine information.
My argument which you referred to as slippery slope wasn't on the drug issue. That was reductio ad absurdum. I extended your argument beyond your prescribed parameters to demonstrate its absurdity. Legalizing drugs to eliminate the societal costs of prosecution can be extended to almost any law. Laws, after all, ARE made to be broken.

Cavell 5:15 am
We have ventured away from the point of this thread. The point of my last few posts is that the arguments against many of these issues are not religious arguments. Just because people of faith make an argument does not make that argument religious. There are millions of people in this world who are not Christians who would oppose your stance on drugs based on just as much, if not more, anecdotal evidence to the contrary of that which you have sighted. I personally know people who have made devasting choices for themselves and their families based on the need for marijuana. The libertarian argument that legalizing drugs will eliminate all of these problems just doesn't seem to pan out in many of the places it has been tried. The drug industry and the porn industry are inextricably linked. Many women and men are trapped into prostitution and porn to support their addictions and still others who entered the industry for the money anesthetize themselves with drugs against the pain, depression and destruction of their self-esteem
brought on by 12 hour shooting days for a single 45 minute set. They can edit a lot of damage, pain, and coercion out of that kind of ratio. You really should investigate the testimony of those who have managed to escape the industry. Their testimony is a powerful indictment. You're living in a fantasy world if you think pornography doesn't damage people.


Klein
"Intelligent design promotes no particular religion over any other. Darwin... get more than equal time here."

There's huge bodies of evidence for Darwin. There is none for ID. Hence the disparity.

Pathos57, Part Deux
As for his porn argument? I'm still not sure why he thinks it should be opposed. It degrades the performers only in the eyes of those who're terrified of sex. I've yet to date a girl who doesn't like it, so based on anecdotal evidence, I'd say the whole "it's degrading to women," argument is out.

And, finally, creationism. He basically just attempted the Wedge Strategy on me, and I really don't know what to do with that. By the very definition of science, creationism doesn't fit. Yeah, there're a few scientists who think it does - just as there're a few historians who think the Holocaust never happened. The overwhelming majority - the OVERWHELMING majority - believe it to be religion-inspired pseudoscience. Science doesn't say, "Well, we can't explain this yet, so we're gonna be lazy and just say there was some supernatural force involved and call it a day."

Oh, yeah, and stem cells. He ignored what I said, so I'll just do the same.

Pathos57
"Why so personally antagonistic? It seems that Kleindo2 is making reasonable arguments in a NON-ad hominem fashion"

Probably because the tried-and-true slippery slope argument is just as useless as personal attacks, but I might as well fight fire with fire. We go from decriminalizing pot to getting rid of the police and tearing down everything. Sure.

Look at it this way; how many people have died from lung cancer due to nicotine addiction? What about families ruined by alcoholism, or simple abuse? Both perfectly legal. And I think they should be. I also know, from personal experience, about the only drugs on the illicit market these days that're worse in their effects than either of those are crack, heroin, and meth. Plus the weird stuff like PCP that nobody does anymore. Society doesn't break down if we legalize pot. And, chances are, we can get some actual education going, rather than the whole, "OH MY GOD DRUGS ARE THE BOOGEY-MAN!" crap we have now. But, that's not the way you guys like to do things. It's like sex ed; you're convinced as long as you preach abstinence, kids won't figure things out for themselves. The Africa example I used earlier is just, in my mind, the perfect summation of Christian social morality; ignore the blatant reality of the modern world and tell 'em not to use condoms, and expect things to work out peachy.


Cavell 9:11
Why so personally antagonistic? It seems that Kleindo2 is making reasonable arguments in a NON-ad hominem fashion. By contrast, your post insinuates some personal knowledge of his experiences or lack thereof ("But I'm sure you won't agree with me, because you've been told how bad they are - with no personal experience"). Furthermore, your argument is specious. One does not have to USE illicit drugs to have been affected by someone else's drug use. I dare say a vast number of people could offer horror stories to validate their belief that the legalization of drugs is NOT in the best interest of society. Freedom of religion is part of our national heritage. You may choose to base your beliefs on whatever you wish. So may I. So may Kleindo2. Finally. we're all free to vote for those candidates that reflect the values (whether faith based or not) we ascribe to. It amuses me that you seem to feel Christians should be forced into hiding while drug users, pornographers, & homosexuals should be free to practice their beliefs in the public square. Rather Orwellian isn't it? You seem to imply we're all equal, just those practices you find acceptable are more equal than others.

Cavell 9:11
Intelligent design promotes no particular religion over any other. Darwin, Steady State, Big Bang the atheist sects get more than equal time here. There are scientists that disagree with your assessment of the worthiness of Intellgent Design for the science class. My particular theory is that whatever technique God chose to create the universe we've been trying to figure it out for at least 7,000 years of scientific endeavor and still don't have it right.

I'm happy to provide some levity for you. It's unfortunate that it is at the expense of human lives. Scientists disagree on the worthiness of embryonic stem cells as compared to adult stem cell research. Many well intentioned people get up in arms over scientific research which causes death or suffering of animals. How can you expect anything less with scientific research on human subjects which requires their death?
You are unfortunately right about porn. Despite its deleterious effects it will probably continue to thrive. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be opposed.
I've heard this libertarian argument RE drug abuse before. We could just make everything legal and tear down those prisons. Imagine the tax savings. We wouldn't need police either. Despite your presumptive assertion to the contrary, I have seen lives devastated by both drugs (mj included) and alcohol. States and countries who have tried decriminalization have reported mixed results.
Oregon's experiment reported increases in underage drug use while high school and college age consumption did go down. The incidence of addiction did not change. Holland reported large increases in violence including shootings, robberies, car thefts and interestingly enough large increases in the number of organized crime families after they decriminalized drug use.

Kleindo2
Yeah, the vast majority of ID idiots are Christian, though. Also, the reason it shouldn't be taught is twofold; like it or not, it does promote religion. Also? Doesn't meet the definition of science. Keep it for philosophy class.

Also, your stem cell analysis amuses me. They don't "harvest" embryos; the embryos that we don't use for stem cell research? Yeah, they get thrown out anyway. Go right ahead and look it up. In other words, we might as well use stuff we're getting rid of anyway.

I'm not even getting into the Puritanical arguments against porn. Suffice to say, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and the only people fighting it are the religious right and feminists, and the feminists gave up a long time ago after they actually conducted some studies.

As for drugs? Again, just a bizarre argument on your part. Pot's less harmful than alcohol; it's impossible to overdose on, for one thing, and doesn't affect your judgment or coordination nearly as much. Know how I know? 'Cause, a lot like God, I never take someone at their word if they have no way of proving what they're talking about. The problem with drugs isn't their addictiveness; we have plenty of perfectly legal addictive products in our society right now. The problem is the criminalization. Decriminalize them, regulate them, sell them in Wal-mart, we cut the prison population in half, put drug lords and most street gangs out of business, and fulfill one of the tenets of conservative government: personal liberty. But I'm sure you won't agree with me, because you've been told how bad they are - with no personal experience, of course. I suppose you could say you've taken it on faith. Which, I guess, is sort of my overarching point.

Harold
I love the irony of a committed religious telling someone else to grow up.

Reply to #18 Cavell
Sorry couldn't keep up--had to abuse myself at the local mall.

You have a minor in "theology?"

Cavell, I once over a period of several months and about 70 written pages talked a lady into leaving islam & starting to a Christian church. That was about 4 or 5 years ago & she hasn't looked back. Supposedly the lady had about a 150 I.Q. but she had some of the same responses you have.

The ease of talking her into thinking right had to do with the fact that I had once had the same arguments. Similar arguments to the ones I have seen from you. She was also a science major & pre-med. Smart woman but spiritually dead.

The best thing I can say is quit thinking like a human being. Secondly, the "in the middle of a great war" argument is pretty accurate.

I used to use the argument that no God of LOVE would allow what I have been through. [great physical & emotional pain] If God is perfect, He would not send anyone to hell, just for violating some silly 10 "suggestions."

Well, that is thinking like a self centered UNREASONING child. Grow UP!

Quit thinking like a human child.

What we have in EVERYTHING is exactly what a perfect God would do. The whole point is that He has given us everything we need. Quit acting like: #1 It is a game. & #2 It is all about you. [or Me]

When you grow up mentally, emotionally, and spiritually the blinders come off. I can remember just exactly what I was doing when I thought: "I get it." And everything just started to make sense.

Recovering Liberal



Cavell Just a reminder
Addendum to my 12:24 post responding to your 2:26 pm post.

2. My response was to the following statement:
"I haven't seen Jewish radicals ever blow up an abortion clinic."

3. and to this..."I've yet to hear of a Jewish leader suggesting that the Iraq war is God's will."

5. and finally..."If you're portrayed as backward and ignorant, that may very well be because you tend to choose spokespeople who are." While you may not agree with the Pope's policies he (they) are not backward or ignorant. As a matter of fact there is some evidence that condom use may promote the spread of HIV. It may offer false security and therefore dispell the urgency needed to promote essential behavioral changes in battling this dreaded disease.

Cavell 11/29 1:00am Pt.3
The porn and illicit drug industries are so self-destructive and harmful to society that no religious grounds are necessary for opposition. Pornography debases both the participants in its production and its consumers. It robs the spirit of empathy and objectifies both men and women. It removes human emotion from sexuality leaving only animalistic hedonism. It has lead to the current youth culture which throws women away once they reach an age beyond their sexually appealing usefulness. There is no societal benefit for its existence. In fact, its existence drains society of human connections such as empathy and sympathy. This is another societal ill that has many grounds for opposition the least of which is religion.
Just like the illicit drug industry. Thinking humans who look at the human carnage left in the wake of drug abuse and addiction cannot support legalization which would only serve to increase those numbers.


Cavell 11/29 1:00 am Pt. 2
In approaching the issue of gay marriage it is interesting to note that you would support legislation that requires me to practice Christianity in a closet but welcome public advocacy and practice of homosexuality. Why is it that gays may advocate for their "moral values" and Christians may not? Interestingly, I do not oppose gay marriage on religious grounds. Gays may set up their households in any way they want. They just can't call it marriage. I object to gay marriage because it is linguistically impossible. It is an oxymoron two things which are mutually exclusive. Marriage is between a man and woman. Anything else is simply not marriage.
To the issue of stem cell research. I don't know anyone who understands stem cell research who opposes it outright. Adult stem cell research has shown amazing potential and should be pursued with all scientific and economic vigor. Not so with embryonic stem cell research. There is no evidence that there is any more value to embryonic stem cells than to adult stem cells. Embryonic stem cell research which requires the destruction of a human embryo is trafficing in human flesh and I cannot support it. Harvesting humans to service other humans is not an argument from religious belief. It is an argument for humans to remain humane.

Cavell 11/29 1:00 am
First, of the "moral values" you have chosen as offensive the only one that has primarily Christian support would be prayer in school. There are probably as many Christians opposed to it as there are who support it. I oppose any type of teacher or administrative lead prayer in school. I also oppose teacher or administrative lead exposition or sermonizing on the pros or conns of particular religious or non-religious faith. Students who wish to pray are not currently barred from doing so in a non-disruptive way. The old saying goes, they will never eliminate prayer from school as long as they still give exams. When in the course of instruction these issues come up as they inevitably do, it is the responsibility of the state to stay neutral, guiding students to reach their own conclusions. This dove-tails nicely into the issue of creationism. I know of no public school district which is engaged in or debating teaching creationism in lieu of traditional Darwinist theories. Those involved in promoting intelligent design first of all are not all Christian. One of the leading proponents is David Klinghoffer, a practicing Orthodox Jew. The debate when it comes to intelligent design is whether or not it should be offered as an alternative theory. As such, I see no problem with church and state issues. No one's religion is being promoted or disparaged. Evidence examined and weighed in a judicious manner would give opportunity to teach students the scientific method. You know, question, research, develop an hypothesis, test that hypothesis, analyze your data, reach a conclusion and report that conclusion. Maybe even teach some students to think. A novel approach. (cont...)

Cavell
"... I've simply taken my search on a much different course than yours. I refuse to take anything on faith; I'm just not that kind of person."

That reminds me of the guy who asked me to explain the difference between faith and reason. The guy had been reading a book when I walked up to him and asked him what he was reading. He was reading a book on how to stop smoking. He did not recognize that he was exercising faith that in that book he might find some answers to his dilemma.

Everyone takes SOMETHING on faith. You ARE that kind of person. We all are. We just want to be the ones who choose what it is we put our faith in.

"I'll have tried to live a good life, and if that's not good enough for any deity that might be out there...sucks to be me, I s'pose."

Maybe it's not about measuring up.


"Could any amount of debate convince you otherwise? Yeah, me neither."

Depends on what the debate is about. If you think I'm trying to convince you to have faith in God, you are correct
But if the "debate" as you call it, is about presenting alternative ways of looking at the same situation, or about correcting misconceptions you have, then, if you refuse to even consider what is presented, don't blame us or what we believe.

Take care.


No government supported religion
Thanking a god does mean the Christian or Muslim god when referenced in government. But when a government gives special treatment to a religion it is showing support or establishing it as the government’s religion. This is prohibited.
The government should have never used the term the religious term “marriage in any law or granting of privilege. Government should have referred to marriages as a government contracts no different than business “partnerships”. This type of government contract would not limit anyone from entering into “contracts” with any number of people of any sex.
These partnerships could never be referred to as a marriage by the government in law.

kleindo2
1. Well, there're a lot, but I'll pick a couple: prayer in school, opposition to same sex marriage, opposition to stem cell research, creationism, anti-porn laws, keeping drugs criminalized. I could go on, but I'd run out of space.

2. I'm not even sure what we're talking about here, probably 'cause I've been active in numerous threads around here lately, and may have lost the train of this one. What's the deal with bombings and whatnot? I can't recall making a point about it, and I don't feel like wading through thirty posts.

3. Ditto.

4. No, I have a lot of non-crazy Christian friends. They're not part of the Christian right, though, so I obviously have few problems with them. They tend to agree with me on this stuff, too, so, ya know, bonus.

5. What're we talking about Christian spokespeople for? I'm seriously wondering if I missed something here. Incidentally, though, popes? C'mon. "Hey, Africa! Don't use condoms, it's against God's will. Oh, and enjoy the AIDS!" Seriously.

Cavell
1. What "moral values" are Christians demanding be legislated that offends your superior moral sensibilities?
2. Have you heard of the Jewish Defense League? They didn't bomb any abortion clinics but they did blow up a bunch of other stuff. Most of their targets were Soviet embassies and property in the U.S. and abroad trying to pressure the Soviets to release Jewish dissidents. A small percentage of their targets were religious, including a group of Moslems engaged in prayer in the West Bank.
3. I did find one Jewish writer and commentator who felt that the war in Iraq "may be" God's will. No leaders so far, however. You may have me on that one. Some have mentioned a few other things as being the will of God. For example, the existence and well being of Israel, Jewish settlements on the West Bank and Sharon's stroke.
4. Christians are a diverse lot. If the ones mentioned in your post are the only ones you've met you have led a seriously sheltered life. If they aren't (which I strongly suspect from your last post) then you are being seriously disingenuous by lumping us all together.
5. You really should broaden your horizons a bit. I think the following leaders might pass muster as sufficiently credentialed "spokespeople". Have you heard of Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Cardinal O'Connor, Archbishop Chaput, or Rick Warren?

Cavell 11.28pm
Just following you down that slippery slope.


kleindo2
"Your goal?!? To sweep those nasty little Christians into their hovels or their churches to hide their disgusting worship habits from we the purveyors of acceptability. They would probably be more comfortable if they had their own little communities in which to practice their faith away from anyone who might disagree. We could call them "camps". We could put up barbed wire and high fences to keep others from invading their privacy and maybe being polluted by their ideas. We'll probably have to plan on a solution to overcrowding in these "camps" at some point since these backward, ignorant people don't understand the joys, necessity, and sacredness of abortion they'll just over-populate their "camps". Then, we the purveyors of goodness and light will have to solve the problem so no one suffers deprivation or starvation. We could maybe have gas chambers set up to resemble showers. Oh, wait a minute this is starting to sound familiar. Did I get your drift there Cavell? It really isn't a big jump from the attitude in your post to fascism."

Actually, it's a pretty big jump. I said my goal was to get you to keep it in your own house or church; nothing ruins a good Strippers and Cocaine Day parade like some snake-handling Pentecostals picketing the local mini-mart for selling condoms.

You brought in the Nazis, bub, not me. I'd actually be quite displeased with what you suggest. I have some Christian friends - though obviously not the crazy kind who feel it's acceptable to draw attention to themselves by praying everywhere - and I certainly wouldn't want to see that happen to them.

Yeah, yeah, you're so persecuted
Historical revisionism by the right is just as bad as when it is done by the left.

The Separatists were trying to separate from the Church of England. They were not actively persecuted. They moved to Amsterdam, which they also left after a time for ideological and practical reasons that also did not pertain to persecution. Their aim was to preserve their theological identity.

The concept of the separation of church and state was a product of the Enlightenment period. John Locke put forth the notion that government cannot and should not compel individual conscience. Other writers and the Founders picked up on it and its various implications.

Just admit that the separation of church and state is as much about keeping the church out of the state as it is about keeping the government out of the church.

Cavell 2:26pm
Your goal?!? To sweep those nasty little Christians into their hovels or their churches to hide their disgusting worship habits from we the purveyors of acceptability. They would probably be more comfortable if they had their own little communities in which to practice their faith away from anyone who might disagree. We could call them "camps". We could put up barbed wire and high fences to keep others from invading their privacy and maybe being polluted by their ideas. We'll probably have to plan on a solution to overcrowding in these "camps" at some point since these backward, ignorant people don't understand the joys, necessity, and sacredness of abortion they'll just over-populate their "camps". Then, we the purveyors of goodness and light will have to solve the problem so no one suffers deprivation or starvation. We could maybe have gas chambers set up to resemble showers. Oh, wait a minute this is starting to sound familiar. Did I get your drift there Cavell? It really isn't a big jump from the attitude in your post to fascism.

Fine Article
Haven't the Communists subjected us to enough in the last 50 years? Jefferson would spin in his grave if he witnessed the intimidation and verbal assault of that 5 year old girl by that commie pinko teacher in Saratoga Springs, NY. God forbid if that woman ever was elected to Congress or appointed to the Supreme Court. Just imagine having to listen to those daily prayers!!! She'd sh-- a Communist brick.

Chuck
In that, we don't disagree. I've simply taken my search on a much different course than yours. I refuse to take anything on faith; I'm just not that kind of person.

As far as talking to you on my deathbed goes, I strongly suspect we'll both have long since moved on from Townhall.com - I'll eventually get bored, speaking for myself, since as you might've guessed, I'm not exactly a Republican. Still, I can tell you now, I'll have tried to live a good life, and if that's not good enough for any deity that might be out there...sucks to be me, I s'pose. 'sides, chances are I won't even make it there; I drive way too fast and smoke way too much to die of old age.

I think I've said it five or six times in this thread, but this is an issue we're simply never going to come together on. I'm just fundamentally not going to understand your point of view, as it's far too alien to me; you might understand mine, but think I'm being far too short-sighted. Could any amount of debate convince you otherwise? Yeah, me neither.

Cavell
I suspect, like most Westerners, you are indulging in the practice of projecting your own cultural values on the situation.

The fact remains, despite your implications otherwise, that man DOES indeed have a legitimate fear of death and, while it is by no means the sole motivator in man's desire to seek ultimate answers to life's questions, it is not something which can or even should be dismissed so lightly.

Talk to me on your death bed. ok? And then perhaps I can take your position towards those who have, what I consider, a healthy and natural fear of death seriously.

My point is not so much "death" and its attendant anxiety but that regardless of our level of education, the ultimate questions of life are still legitimate and wanting to have and know answers to them is a sign of psychological health, not immaturity.

Wrat Wrangler -- 10:20 AM
This date you wrote:
"The danger is the ease with which losers in the 3rd world buy into this because it gives THEM somebody who has to submit. That's their wife who is held lower than a pet goat."

I may not characterize the above group of people as "losers," but I understand the sentiment.

Now dare I ask you, what do you think of those in the United States who submit to Sharia law here? It's happening all over this country.

Cavell
The documents I checked out claimed to be Jefferson's original draft, and they did indeed contain the word "creator." However, I found those on the Internet, which automatically makes them suspicious.

I later checked out my copy of Jefferson's writings in my own personal library, and it does indeed read as the quote you cited. However, as I noted in my last post, the original draft does contain the word "creation" and "created", both of which imply he believed in a Creator.

"I doubt he was an atheist, but I do think he was a deist."

He was. As I said, he was certainly no orthodox Christian.

"A secularist, if you will."

That depends on how you define "secularist." Like most of our founding fathers, Jefferson believed religion was very important to the health of a free society. In his own words, "God who gave us life gave us liberty." He certainly would not have condoned the kind of secularism we see today. He often attended church services in the House of Representatives, so he clearly saw nothing wrong with using public facilities for religious purposes.

Harold
See, that's the thing; even if I did believe in a deity, I would want no part of one that was a sadist. He laughs at us for trying to figure things out using reason that he supposedly supplied? No reasonable man would rely on a single, 2000 year-old source for anything, much less the meaning of life.

No reasonable man would believe in an entity that, for no reason in particular, decided to make man, endow him with the capability of logical thought, provide him with free will, supply a set of rules only through intermediaries, and then decided to send those who comply to paradise and those who don't to hell. If an omnipotent god wanted everyone to be "good," it was fully within its power to make them good; your conception of God is inherently no different than a kid sitting next to an anthill with a magnifying glass, burning the ants that didn't stumble over a pebble of his choosing.

You can't explain God. Thanks, but no thanks. It's much more rational to believe that everything has an explanation; we just haven't figured a lot of them out yet. Electricity didn't have one two hundred years ago, and long before that, neither did gravity. I'd much prefer to say we don't yet know the answers to questions rather than declaring, on blind faith alone, that we do. And you know what? As more and more of those questions are answered, you'll have to keep on redefining and reinterpreting your faith, until there's nothing left.

Chuck
"Christianity, in particular, shows no signs of being in decline."

That's actually not quite true, especially if we look at Europe. Worldwide, it's arguably on the rise or at least holding where income and education levels are low - much like Islam - and declining where income and education levels are high - again, like Islam.

"I would be on more stable grounds than you if I asserted that your grandchildren, if the world lasts that long, will be Islamic."

I suppose it's possible. Who can say for sure? My point is, the ancient Greeks/ancient Egyptians/ancient Teutons/whoever weren't all sitting around going, "Someday, our religion's going to die out." They believed it as fervently as you believe yours and thought it to be just as immortal. History proves otherwise. Same with societies; the US is likely to be on top forever, for example.

Thanks Cavell
I hate to tell you this but life was really easy before the blinders were removed. The "opiate of [or was it for] the masses" actually has made life a whole lot more difficult. Talk about getting my rear end kicked it didn't start until after I became a Christian, which was by the way about 10 years b4 I became politically conservative.

Ignorance, spiritual and otherwise, is the real "opiate." Talk with the folks who have to come to know real fear when they become Christians.

As for--"They do not in other words make sense."

Of course they don't. My point exactly about being spiritually blind.

But whenever you become spiritually alive [and I will admit there are a lots of "Christians" in name only] then everything makes much more sense, especially when I began to look at the universe as a scene of almost unimaginable warfare.

In all warfare there is propaganda, false information and subterfuge. Imagine a war between unseen almost infinitely powerful beings and you can get an idea of what you are. Warfare in which even the bad guys can manipulate almost every aspect of physical and mental and spiritual life.

Of course you don't get it. You are like an ant battling one of the transformers.

Today I study EACH word of the Bible because that is what it takes. Reminds me of "Forbidden Planet" an old SciFi film in a way, but that is what understanding requires.

It wasn't meant to be "humanly" logical. But the funny thing is that the basics were designed to be accepted by a little ole 80 year old grandma or 6 year old child.

Once again, we men try to make ourselves out to be "wise." And the creator of the universe, who literally spoke and a hundred billion galaxies flashed into being, laughs at us.

Thanks for your reply.

Recovering Liberal

Never understood
the practice of referring to Thomas Jefferson as the final word on the matter.

More Jefferson statements on God:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

DAVID's Afterthought
To see revisionism at its worse we now have DAVID quoting David Barton and trying to pass off these, Barton's words, as Jefferson's:

"The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but that wall is a one directional wall, it keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

Of course nothing could be further from Jefferson's words or intent. The question must be asked, How low will Christian revisionist go?

Cavell
I would be on more stable grounds than you if I asserted that your grandchildren, if the world lasts that long, will be Islamic.

laws / morals
A society's laws are there to preserve the peace and protect the citizens of that society. You can say 'laws are based on morality', but only if your morals are based on the harm principle. Then your morals and laws are both heading to the same goal - preserve the peace and don't harm others.

But these are secular morals. Religious morals aren't necessarily related to consequences at all. Eating the wrong food can be 'immoral'. Doing something on the wrong day of the week can be just 'wrong'. The whole point of religious morals is that you can't reason it out. If you could, you wouldn't need a God to tell you it was wrong. It would be common sense. Laws aren't based on those kind of morals, unless you live in a theocracy.

Cavell
Christianity, in particular, shows no signs of being in decline.

Chuck
"Now that's what I call blind faith. History does not indicate such."

Yeah, you're right. Religions never die out.

Rik -- inalienable rights
We have inalienable rights because we own our own bodies. We don't have to purchase our bodies from any other person or from the State. It's property we were born with. And since we cannot be separated from our bodies. that right of property is inalienable.

Cavell
"Somehow I doubt they'll be the losers. History doesn't indicate such. With the passage of time, we learn more and more - and that's death to religion. Religion is based on fear of the unknown: why are we here? What happens when we die? Why does all of this stuff exist? Zeus was the ancient Greeks' answer to thunder and lightning; God is Christianity's answer to more complex questions. Questions that may or may not ever be answered, but frankly? I think they will. Probably not in my lifetime, unfortunately, but answered all the same."


Now that's what I call blind faith. History does not indicate such.

Ralph
Your Jefferson quote is about slavery, not religious liberty.

Harold
Somehow I doubt they'll be the losers. History doesn't indicate such. With the passage of time, we learn more and more - and that's death to religion. Religion is based on fear of the unknown: why are we here? What happens when we die? Why does all of this stuff exist? Zeus was the ancient Greeks' answer to thunder and lightning; God is Christianity's answer to more complex questions. Questions that may or may not ever be answered, but frankly? I think they will. Probably not in my lifetime, unfortunately, but answered all the same.

Harold, I can tell you from long personal experience - to steal a condescending phrase - that fear is what motivates you. Without it, and the faith it brings, you'd have nothing to reassure you that you are, in fact, a unique and beautiful snowflake, and there's actually some meaning to all of this. You'd have to make your own way, and it's so much easier to defer to a higher authority, real or imagined.

The thing is, I'm not like you. I haven't read a lot of books making fun of the Bible or religion. I've studied them both, however - I even have a minor in Theology, so how's that for irony? - and they're simply irreconcilable with my understanding of the universe. They do not, in other words, make any sense. I won't believe in something that makes no sense, just as I wouldn't believe the guy who tells me he can take all my cash and double it in a week with no proof whatsoever. He could be telling the truth, but chances are he's not.

So I guess I'll stick with the losers. At least we throw better parties.

Cavell
Reasoning Men? That's a laugh!

I used to be one of those "reasoning men" who made fun of "Christians" and their book of fables! I was actively anti-christian.

Oh, to be sure, I believed something made the universe. Only an idiot like Sagan or Asimov would not get the obvious fact that something or someone had to come up with this infinite complexity.

But I read a lot of the books making fun of the Bible and proving all of those "contradictions."

Of course, until I began to study the science I also believed in evolution. UNTIL I BEGAN TO STUDY the false assumptions and circular reasoning. Boy is that a joke for "reasoning men."

I used to teach a "rehabilitation" course in a correctional facility [way b4 I became a Christian] and I would challenge the inmates [most of whom, like you, thought they were the "smart" ones] with this question: "If you are born blind, and lets say you are part of a controlled experiment, and never allowed to find out your handicap,---would you ever know the truth."

With given, controlled elements, the answer should be---"No, you would not know you are, blind, if you were never allowed to find out."

Cavell, I can tell you from long personal experience, you wouldn't know "reason" if it bit you on the rear. You are a blind man never allowed to know the truth.

"Thinking themselves to be wise they have become fools."

I would suggest some materials from former atheists like Stroebel and McDowell.

You need to realize you are a prize in a great war between incredibly powerful forces, and so far you are willingly going with the losers.

Have a nice eternity.

Recovering Liberal



rik
"But in all seriousness we obviously have fundamentally different readings of our counties founding. A difference that cannot be bridged by debate so I'll amuse myself at the small price of misrepresenting your quote!"

I bet it would be more than the founding that's included in our fundamental differences of understanding. That's something I've actually said quite a lot around here. I've made my peace with it; why is it so difficult for your side to accept that arguments from faith will simply never work on people like me? Wouldn't it be more productive to just say, "Alright, look; we're never going to convince them that God's the fount of all human morality, so why not just push our agenda without constantly trying to bring God into it?"

Ralph
I imagine we read that little tidbit very differently. My way is thoroughly amusing, and a delight to a cynic like myself.

But, if you really want to trade Jeffersonian quotes regarding religion, we can.

Cavell
In regard to you 4:36 post, "See, my creator was a social contract established by reasoning men. I don't think so much which provided me with a biological process, Same for every other orgasm." You are free to be who you are!

But in all seriousness we obviously have fundamentally different readings of our counties founding. A difference that cannot be bridged by debate so I'll amuse myself at the small price of misrepresenting your quote!

Jefferson on religious liberty:
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever."

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781

Jefferson was a Deist...
who believed in free expression of religion. That is why as President he ordered the inside of the US Capitol, the rotunda, to be the first location of a national church.

This does not violate the First Amendment as he did not mandate or coerce attendance at the church.

Jefferson simply allowed for free expresssion of religious activity on federal property if a citizen chose to attend.

No coercion there. Just equal access.

rik
"You are correct, in that Inalienable Rights are obtained at birth. More specify and more importantly, they are rights that cannot be taken away. Any right given by man can be taken away by man. We are endowed by our Creator with Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

See, my creator was a biological process. Same for every other organism. I don't think it was so much that which provided me with inalienable rights, but more the social contract established by reasoning men. They're rights that most certainly can be taken away, however.

wrat wrangler...you have
Made a lot of great posts IMHO !
ELVIS

Ken
Actually, the phrase in the original rough draft is, "We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independant, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness..."

I'm not entirely sure where you see "Creator" in there, or anywhere else in the document, but maybe you ought to check it out at the Library of Congress. It's, you know, right there.

I doubt he was an atheist, but I do think he was a deist. A secularist, if you will. Most of his writing supports a somewhat hazy notion of the divine, separate from the affairs of men.

And the bit about the history of the Bible has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is why I pointedly said, "apropos nothing."

Inalienable Rights
You are correct, in that Inalienable Rights are obtained at birth. More specify and more importantly, they are rights that cannot be taken away. Any right given by man can be taken away by man. We are endowed by our Creator with Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Cavell
"I think you may need to go actually look up a copy of the draft, then."

I did, and the draft I read contained the word "creator." Jefferson's rough draft, in his own handwriting, contained the word "creator."

Some people claim Jefferson's "original" draft did not use the word "Creator", but they also claim the original document no longer exists (am I the only one who sees a contradiction here?). They also claim Jefferson used the word "creation", which implies the existence of a Creator, so your argument is weak on all counts.

Surely you're not embracing the myth that Jefferson was an atheist? True, he was no orthodox Christian, either, but his writings contain numerous references to God.

"While you're at it, apropos nothing, might be helpful to discover when the Bible was actually compiled."

I fail to see what that has to do with the topic at hand. I am quite well-read on that subject, though. Your point is---?

Ken
"How do you figure that? From what I've read, the word "Creator" was not added by Puritans or anyone else. It was in Jefferson's original draft."

I think you may need to go actually look up a copy of the draft, then.

While you're at it, apropos nothing, might be helpful to discover when the Bible was actually compiled.

Cavell
"Before the Southern delegation was forced to compromise and add "Creator" to the Declaration to appease northern Puritans, it, obviously, made no mention whatsoever of one. Jefferson wrote that the mere act of being born human provided you with inalienable rights."

How do you figure that? From what I've read, the word "Creator" was not added by Puritans or anyone else. It was in Jefferson's original draft.

First Amendment
Thank you for rewriting about this particular misrepresention which keeps on being misused. We can intrude upon each others liberties but only in ignorance. Good article!!! Thanks!

JC

This is why I love freedom...
Keep it coming. Freedom works.

rik
"I'd like our Atheist friends to tell me what inalienalbe rights are and how we got inalienable rights? Why are inalienable rights important to our Constitution and Bill of Rights?"

I'll use Jefferson's take on that, if you don't mind, since it mirrors my own. Before the Southern delegation was forced to compromise and add "Creator" to the Declaration to appease northern Puritans, it, obviously, made no mention whatsoever of one. Jefferson wrote that the mere act of being born human provided you with inalienable rights.

Why? I'd imagine they were integral to the social contract for him. He viewed liberty as humanity's default state, and in order to have liberty, certain rights needed to be inherent and inalienable. In other words, if we're going to make humanity work, we need to realize there are certain laws or rules we cannot make. They have no supernatural basis, they're instead based in the notion of personal liberty.

To none
"Murder was not a unlawful until a belief in God and the belief in the sanctity of life was etched into humanity."

Wildly incorrect. Once again, history doesn't start with Genesis. You might want to take a look at some codes of law established long, long, long before Christianity was ever even thought of.

"Morality is instilled by a belief and if you do not believe in a higher power, how can you know what morality is? Prove that God does not exist? I'll wait.... Can't do it can you."

Actually, no. Morality isn't instilled by a belief in a higher power. I have my own moral code, and I do not believe in a deity, thus I'm walking denial of your argument. The moral codes put in place by various societies long before the Christian god was invented are as well.

And, as I'm sure you well know, you can't prove a negative. You're the ones claiming the existence of God; burden of proof's on you. Moreover, an atheist wouldn't try to disprove God's existence; it'd be like attempting to disprove Santa Claus exists. Instead, we'd simply try to figure out logical, rational answers, with the awareness that, for example, two hundred years ago we didn't understand electricity. Just because we don't have answers now doesn't mean we won't discover them in the future. And, as always, there'll be a natural explanation rather than a supernatural one. Personally, I think you guys have noticed this trend, and are scared to death of what it means for your religion.

kleindo2
"Secular nonobtrusive government is the ideal. My concern is that Christianity is being singled out as the one religion it is acceptable to ridicule. I do not think that we are a persecuted minority because I don't believe we are in the minority. I do, however, think that a minority of elitists have taken it upon themselves and at times with the aid and comfort of government, to attack the influence of Christians as backward, ignorant, holier than thou, incompetent, etc. fill in the pejorative of your liking. Depictions of religious Christians in the media over the past thirty years or so have been largely unsympathetic and ignorant. My concern is that because of this incessant drumbeat in the MSM most Christians will become content with only practicing their faith inside their homes or in their churches."

That's your concern; that's my goal. You know why Christians get "singled out"? Because they're the only ones getting on TV and insisting that their "moral values" are legislated. I haven't seen Jewish radicals ever blow up an abortion clinic. I've yet to hear of a Jewish leader suggesting that the Iraq war is God's will.

Backward, ignorant, incompetent? Maybe you've never spoken to the type of Christian that honestly believes the earth is 7,000 years old, and that modern medicine is a sin, and that good ol' faith healing and prayer are all we need. Maybe you've never spoken to the type of Christian who fundamentally misunderstands stem cell research, and is rabidly against us pursuing it, despite the fact it only means we'll be buying our Alzheimer's medication from South Korea in the not-so-distant future, and who knows what else? And let's not even get started on creationism.

If you're portrayed as backward and ignorant, that may very well be because you tend to choose spokespeople who are.

inalienable rights
I'd like our Atheist friends to tell me what inalienalbe rights are and how we got inalienable rights? Why are inalienable rights important to our Constitution and Bill of Rights?

They NEVER go after the Muslims!
In fact Boston gave the Muslims a sweetheart deal to build a religious center. They sold land at a fraction of its real value. THAT'S "separation of church and state"? More like dread fear of CAIR and the other screaming maniacs out there.

They have NO problem stomping on a creche in front of a library but will practically GIVE AWAY land to the Muslims.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Cavell (cont...)
Secular nonobtrusive government is the ideal. My concern is that Christianity is being singled out as the one religion it is acceptable to ridicule. I do not think that we are a persecuted minority because I don't believe we are in the minority. I do, however, think that a minority of elitists have taken it upon themselves and at times with the aid and comfort of government, to attack the influence of Christians as backward, ignorant, holier than thou, incompetent, etc. fill in the pejorative of your liking. Depictions of religious Christians in the media over the past thirty years or so have been largely unsympathetic and ignorant. My concern is that because of this incessant drumbeat in the MSM most Christians will become content with only practicing their faith inside their homes or in their churches. As I said in another post, the catacombs are for totalitarian regimes not the United States. The establishment clause was written to protect government and religion from the excesses of eacb. The free exercise clause was expressly written to protect religous practice from government interference. As I have previously stated, it does not establish religion to sing "Silent Night" in a public school choir. It does not establish religion to display a Menorah or Creche on public property.





Cavell 1:21
What is it? Is ridicule the rule in your posts? Does it help your argument to first belittle those you disagree with?
It is amazing to me that you could read my post and conclude that I am in favor of theocratic government.

You said "Your worry seems to be that if we maintain secular government in this country your point of view won't be considered."

No, emphatically not so. If you had actually read the rest of the post you would see this:

"There are many organizations which promote useful dialog in our multi-cultural world. I did say that ALL citizens have a duty to bring their heartfelt issues to the table for consideration in developing a society that functions in a healthy constructive manner. You do know that all means everybody not just Christians or not just atheists?"

And on a previous post:

"No one, of good conscience, is asking the government to support any particular religion. The establishment clause expressly prohibits that. That is precisely what the Founders were protecting against. The government establishment of religion always hurts the religion as much as the government."

(continued...)

Separation of Church and State!
"The government cannot mandate religious practice, nor can the government deny that same practice." The Constitution separates the government from the Chruch... not the Church from government.

Christopher Merola's article is 100% correct! What has been happening in the USA is the beginnings of pure persecuton of the Christian faith. Soon it will be against the law to pray, or preach the gospel of Jesus Christ anywhere, at any time, period.

Destruction of the Christian faith is not only being brought about by the atheistic secular community, but by the mainstream liberal "professing" Christian churches as well. In their Ecumenical movement is toward a one world church in which all the world's religions are equal, but true Christianity has no place.

If you don't believe me, just keep your eyes and ears open, the day will come when Christians are not tolerated anytime, anywhere.

All this debating proves...
that free expression is good for the nation. Whether that expression be religious or not is besides the point.

We are free to express our beliefs openly in the public arena. That is what makes us Americans.

The government can neither restrict nor promote th speech we express. Pretty simple.

more for #116
Dude, how have believers in God pushed their religion on you? If anything, we have forced ourselves to be more vigilant of proselytizing. What president has ever forced the government to play favorites. Your arguments are hypothetical. I argue in the concrete. Geez, you progressives/humanists bring up Hitler all the time to describe us and the present government. How does it not apply in this case? Hitler removed religion from the German society. As did Stalin and Mao and look at what happened. Wiggle that one brainiac.
Go to France's D Day cemetary and Arlington and tell us how many different religions are buried there? They are predominately Christian. So don't bring up one of you weak authors as a point of reference just because they argue your point.
The persons who wrote that debating you is ridiculous are correct. Go play on MoveOn, Kos and Democrat Underground.

dreamer #116
Oh, please. You are a progressive and for you to say otherwise is a lie to yourself and us.
What religious bigotry am I and other defenders of religion demonstrating? Cite an example, oh wise one. Somebody beat me to the next point and that is cite an example of "religious coercion"?
Years ago in this nation Catholics and Christians were celebrating relgious dates without any problems, but then the SCOTUS gave you folks free reign to attack us. And it is about time we fight back. Luckily you still have the SC and the liberal media backing your specious points. Me and my "ilk" are fighting from principle.
Oh please,again, a lie. How are we obtrusive? Does a child saying a prayer really make you feel that insecure? Does the celebration of Christmas really make you feel that marginalized? Geez, grow up. And if you think Islamists in this nation are less "obtrusive" you are only appeasing them in the blind hope they will not "convert" you.
What "favoritism" has the government shown Christians? Cite an example. Who says our law is based on "human law"? Geez that takes some real revisionism on your part to make that argument. You mean life is sacred from you point? Then why does your side agree and support abortion? Murder was not a unlawful until a belief in God and the belief in the sanctity of life was etched into humanity. Here we go again, what part of us defines morality? Is in the hippocampus, cerebellum??
Morality is instilled by a belief and if you do not believe in a higher power, how can you know what morality is? Prove that God does not exist? I'll wait.... Can't do it can you.
I see our problem, you are a humanist which means you believe in humans as the controlling authourity. So if we had it your way, and humans thought that stealing from the better off to give to the lesser was okay, you would be okay. Or killing the less desirable was okay, you again would be okay with that.

Marriage is a Religious Ritual Only
"If we are not able to build into ourselves and our families the brakes of self-restraint and self-discipline, we are apt, unwittingly, to create tyranny in our government or anarchy in our citizenry. If we push onto the government the management not only of our economy, but also the management of our morals, the civil servants of the future will be neither civil nor servants. "

Neal A Maxwell, Masters Degree in Political Science, Multiple honorary and Doctorate degrees. See: http://farms.byu.edu/about/maxwellbio.php

This is not about marriage; it is about the legislation and cancellation of our moral values, which on founded on truth and principles of liberty.

The opposite of liberty is libertinism, and immoral, corrupt acts of infidelity and immorality. Sexual exploit and the corruption of the American way of life, the greatest nightmare of the American people, the death of the American Dream.

Are we going to stand by and let these spiritually sick and corrupt minorities, who claim falsely in the name of liberty, to disguise their wantonness rebellion against the purity and sanctity of marriage, ordained of God, as between a man and a woman? This it not within the pail of state or federal governments responsibility to alter religious, moral values of principle. They are in violation of the first amendment. The moral affairs of the Church and of the people are not subject to whim or lobby but to the fulfillment of divine principle, and obedience to godly injunctions and commandments, that have served us well.

We are not determining marriage we are deterring the free expression of faith, principles of moral conduct that guarantee freedom in the truth. If we fail here to oppose faithfully this initiative fuelled by corrupt passion for an evil end, we can kiss our liberties good bye.

Can we do it? Yes, we can if we do it with the truth, true compassion for the disturbed and addicted persons. They know not what they do.

CALIF SON...JUST WAIT
IF YOU THINK THE CHRISTIANS ARE GETTING BAMMED
NOW, JUST WAIT AND SEE WHAT IS COMING !
PROPHECY HAS IT THAT ALL WHO BELIEVE IN THE
"JESUS STORY" ARE GOING TO BE ATTACKED FROM THE AUTHORITUES (GVMNT.) THROUGH THE LAWS!BAPTISTS,LUTHERANS,CATHOLICS,ETC., AND EVEN MORMONS.
AS YOU WITNESSED LATELY ON NATIONAL TV,ETC.!YOU KNOW THAT BATTLE ABOUT GAY MARRIAGE IN CALIF. IN WHICH THE MORMON CHURCH LED THE WAY AND ALL THE GAY WORLD IS OUT TO GET THE MORMONS!
OTHER CHURCHES JOINED THE EFFORT,TOO!
IT IS GOING TO BE REAL INTERESTING....AND SIMON
SAID A CIVIL WAR WILL STRAIGHTEN IT OUT !
OUCH ! I HOPE IT DOESN'T GET TO THAT POINT!
ELVIS

Impossible and why would we want to.
We came to practise as we choose. For those who don't like it shut-up or go! I see people sneaking in our country not sneaking out.

scooternyc - are you kidding?
"Government ought not to be in the business of legislating morals or values; nor should they have the courts adjudicate morals or values..."

Name ONE, just ONE law that is not based on morals.

Islam NOT a religion!!!
It's a SYSTEM for controlling every tiny facet of everyone's daily life. It has a HUGE religious component, a military component, an economic component, social components etc.

"Islam" does NOT mean "peace" as many apologists have insisted since 9/11. It means SUBMISSION!!! All of Islam is geared toward the domination and control of the masses by the mullahs.

Otherwise WHY are Muslims who leave or try to leave Islam murdered? There can be NO DISSENT with Islam. Islam is ALL ABOUT GLOBAL DOMINATIION AND ALWAYS WAS. Ever since Mohammed cobbled together a "religion" based on misogyny, brutality and "honor" from fragments of Judaism and Christianity this has been the case. He took the name Allah from the old Arabic moon god.

Most Muslims are uneducated and illiterate. That's what the Koran instructs to read and learn as much as is easy for you. For most that's nothing, they rely on some mullah with an agenda to TELL them what's in the Koran.

The danger is the ease with which losers in the 3rd world buy into this because it gives THEM somebody who has to submit. That's their wife who is held lower than a pet goat.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

To understand the liberal "doublethink"
on this issue, read the book "Godless" by Ann Coulter. And to understand what the real objection is, dissect the liberal posts here. They all have no problem with Buddha. They all love that "religion of peace" (lmao) Islam. The problems start when you mention Jesus Christ. This is because liberals HATE Christ and anyone who has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. They know that the church (all TRUE believers in Christ) is the only thing that stands between them and what they want to turn the USA into: The People's Republic Of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Islam IS protected by the 1st Amendment
If the Founders had wanted everyone to be Christian, and just wanted to forbid the "establishment" of any one particular version of Christianity, they would have said so.

But that is not what the First Amendment says. It just prohibits Congress from establishing a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about "Christianity." The word "Christianity" does not appear in the Constitution.

Since Islam is in fact a religion, the Federal Government can do nothing to prohibit the free exercise thereof.

Islam hasn't a 1st Amend.Right
The fact is back in the days of the founding of our republic the presupposition relied on was our nation was Christian. Read that again so that it sinks in.

The First Amendment's prohibition against Congress establishing a religion therefore presumed our republic's faith was Christian. The prohibition is against making a particular Christian denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.) "the" denomination sanctioned by Congress.

It's time Congress protected our republic and outlawed the Muslim religion and send its murderous adherents packing back to the Islamic World which they metastized from.

AnnRKey
See my response in Giles's 11/22/08 column.

Replt #61
Nope your wrong, it is not in the constitution and I did not mis-read, I stated the actual quote.

It's people like you that makes America weak.

Cavell
It never fails to amaze me how one who refuses to argue with intellectual honesty always goes away conviced that the other guy "lost the argument".

Church and State
This was one of the best written articles I have read to date.

dreamer from MN
I disagre.

Taxes are not here to stay.

No Conservatives don't vote to increase taxes.

If they vote to raise taxes, then they are not a conservative.

Reagan went a long way to getting rid of income taxes by reducing them to just 3 tax brackets.

If Congress would have listen to Reagan, the budget would have balanced in 1988 but instead the Liberal Democratic congress wanted to out spend the increases in revenues and proposed 13% increases in spending. Reagan vetoed a couple of the spending bills and the compramise increases ended up at 8% average.

If Bush 41 & Clinton would have held the line on taxes and kept spending in check we would now be in a better position to deal with social security debt.

In summary, you are correct Taxes are here to stay as long as the voters keep voting for a congress that likes to spend other peoples money. But that may change. Especially with the current national debt.

We are in for tough times ahead as a nation.

In a couple years inflation is going to go through the roof because of the national debt. Then lets see what the voters want to do. Remember, Social Security benefits are tied to inflation and the colas are only going to make matter worse.

I am glad I am not a young kid coming out of college today. But I find some peace in the knowledge that young people tend to vote for Liberal democrats who are screwing them in the long run.

kleindo2
"6. Laws must be made with everyone included. If we do not bring our convictions to the table then they will not be considered."

Don't get me wrong, the rest of it was pretty hilarious, too, but this just jumped out at me. I love how much you guys enjoy getting off on the notion that you're some persecuted minority. You have one of only two political parties in lockstep with you, and you still hold the majority in the country - though the latter is, thankfully, changing.

Your worry seems to be that if we maintain secular government in this country your point of view won't be considered. Depends on your point of view. If you think God really does choose sides, from football games to what countries he likes, then yeah, you're probably out of luck. If you want laws that benefit the common good of society without infringing on personal liberties, then you have nothing to worry about. See, that's the thing; nobody ever tries to take away your right to attend church, or speak your mind, or go on a Bible retreat or whatever. We will try to stop you from injecting religion into the classroom - we're falling disgracefully behind the rest of the world in terms of education, after all, and that would only hasten it - or state-run programs, or state-sponsored events, or...well, you get the idea.

Anything you want to be able to do, you better be comfortable with an atheist - or a radical Muslim - doing in the exact same manner. If you're not, then you've crossed the line.

Chuck
"That's the classic atheist attempt to appear to be being scientific when all it is is a cop-out and an avoidance of the issue.

Since there are only two possible answers to the question and since we all know enough of the workings of the world to know into which answer those things we DO know fit, and only fit, saying you see no evidence "either way" is a sign of, either an immature intellect or a head game one plays only on themselves. "

And this is why you guys always lose the argument. There aren't only two possible answers to that question; there are numerous answers. It's not, "God exists," or, "God doesn't exist." There's always, "God exists, but we've fundamentally misunderstood him," or, "God doesn't exist, but something completely different does." And any number of others. The point is? I don't know. I don't have nearly enough in front of me to jump to a conclusion, either.

There's a great quote out there, and I unfortunately can't recall who said it, but it runs something along the lines of, "When you understand why you do not believe in the ancient Greek gods, you will understand why I do not believe in yours. We're both atheists; I simply fail to believe in one more god than you."

"Christian" values were around a long time before there were Christians. The notion that our laws are based on them is absurd; you're welcome to believe whatever you want. You're even welcome to evangelize about it. You're not welcome to try and put it in my government or legislate me into having to follow your creed.


dreamer (cont.....)
5. Certainly there should be no pendulum. That is the point of Chris' article. Until FDR appointees to the SCOTUS began actively interpreting the separation clause of the First Amendment by invoking Thomas Jefferson out of context the First Amendment was interpreted as protecting the free exercise of religion from government interference. Now you can't say "Merry Christmas" without out someone taking offense and a lawyer licking his metaphorical chops.
6. Laws must be made with everyone included. If we do not bring our convictions to the table then they will not be considered.
7. If churches cannot contribute to issue oriented campaigns (not individual candidates) then neither can labor unions or PACs.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend. Thank God for American and the freedom we have to express ourselves.

dreamer 4:20
For someone who doesn't think much about God's existence one way or the other you sure do write about it a lot.
ad seriatim
1. If you wish to disparage your adversaries using verbage like ilk to lump groups together that's your perogative. I will just point out that I have not done the same.
2. If you will re-read my post I did not say FOTF et.al. had a "monopoly" on issues which pertain to an orderly society. There are many organizations which promote useful dialog in our multi-cultural world. I did say that ALL citizens have a duty to bring their heartfelt issues to the table for consideration in developing a society that functions in a healthy constructive manner. You do know that all means everybody not just Christians or not just atheists?
3. Give me an example of "Christian Coercion".
4. If by ideology you mean that Christian groups may object to abortion on demand because they oppose killing people out of personal convenience then I suppose you are right. However, I would argue that that IS an argument given in good conscience. If the millions of people whom we have aborted over the past thirty-five years were alive and contributing to the economy there would be no social security solvency issues for at least another 50 to 100 years. (Continued...)

Cavell
"but until I've seen evidence either way, I'm not going to believe him."

That's the classic atheist attempt to appear to be being scientific when all it is is a cop-out and an avoidance of the issue.

Since there are only two possible answers to the question and since we all know enough of the workings of the world to know into which answer those things we DO know fit, and only fit, saying you see no evidence "either way" is a sign of, either an immature intellect or a head game one plays only on themselves.

stiritup05
"My earlier point was unambiguous. People like you who do not believe in God are more than willing to participate in a day off in a celebration of thanks to a God who you adamantly disavow. If people like you were so adamant that there is no God, you should be outraged and insist that you be allowed to work, simply out of principle. "

Classic. Maybe I just don't like going into work, and will take any opportunity not to do so? If that's duplicitous, then I guess I am. I manage to live with it.

You were right about one thing, though. No amount of debate is going to sway the committed. That's true for both sides. You can't argue against faith with logic, and you can't argue against logic with faith. Anytime a debate reduces to, "Well, you just have to BELIEVE what I'm saying, without proof!" then I simply stop listening.

You guys can keep on misinterpreting atheism all you like. It's not an active belief in nothing; it's a passive lack of belief. That does NOT imply an answer; it simply suggests we don't know enough to know for sure. Put it this way; if some guy told you that if you gave him all your money, he'd double it in a week and give it all back to you, would you believe him without proof? That's the God proposition, to an atheist. The guy could be lying, he could be telling the truth, but until I've seen evidence either way, I'm not going to believe him.

DA
try xanax...or the kool aid... yawn...gone to bed, end of this thread for me...

hang on...are you really from MO? sure it ain't Arkansas? I hear banjos...

One correction to FANTASTIC article!
Perhaps others have pointed this out, but according to authoritative sources, the referenced letter from Jefferson mentioning the "wall of separation" was sent to the *Danbury* Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut. They had written to the newly elected president for reassurance that there would not be a state established religion.

My husband and I went up to Danbury once to see the location of that church, which is no longer there, but is marked by a plaque and photographs of the building before it was destroyed.

Matthew
If I may, I personally think your view of Jesus is too heavily influenced by your culture and not enouigh by Biblical integrity.

proof of liberty
I have been following the debate each of you have engaged in. Something stands out concerning that debate: your opinions, right, wrong, lame or true show that liberty works.

This is why we must allow religious liberty to be expressed. It causes stimulating debates and discussions. That is also why we can't have the government coerce religious expression. The government will water down free speech with politically correct, wishy-washy idle talk.

Express your freedom anywhere you want. Just remember to use your liberty wisely.