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Thursday, December 13, 2007
Charles Krauthammer :: Townhall.com Columnist
Knee-Deep in Religion
by Charles Krauthammer
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WASHINGTON -- Mitt Romney declares, "Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone." Barack Obama opens his speech at his South Carolina Oprah rally with "Giving all praise and honor to God. Look at the day that the Lord has made." Mike Huckabee explains his surge in the polls thus: "There's only one explanation for it, and it's not a human one. It's the same power that helped a little boy with two fish and five loaves feed a crowd of 5,000 people."

This campaign is knee-deep in religion, and it's only going to get worse. I'd thought that the limits of professed public piety had already been achieved during the Republican CNN/YouTube debate when some squirrelly looking guy held up a Bible and asked, "Do you believe every word of this book?" -- and not one candidate dared reply: None of your damn business.

Instead, Giuliani, Romney and Huckabee bent a knee and tried appeasement with various interpretations of scriptural literalism. The right answer, the only answer, is that the very question is offensive. The Constitution prohibits any religious test for office. And while that proscribes only government action, the law is also meant to be a teacher.

In the same way that civil rights laws established not just the legal but also the moral norm that one simply does not discriminate on the basis of race -- changing the practice of one generation and the consciousness of the next -- so the constitutional injunction against religious tests is meant to make citizens understand that such tests are profoundly un-American.

Now, there's nothing wrong with having a spirited debate on the place of religion in politics. But the candidates are confusing two arguments.

The first, which conservatives are winning, is defending the legitimacy of religion in the public square. The second, which conservatives are bound to lose, is proclaiming the privileged status of religion in political life.

A certain kind of liberal argues that having a religious underpinning for any public policy is disqualifying because it is an imposition of religion on others. Thus, if your opposition to embryonic stem cell research comes from a religious belief in the ensoulment of life at conception, you're somehow violating the separation of church and state by making other people bend to your religion.

This is absurd. Abolitionism, civil rights, temperance, opposition to the death penalty -- a host of policies, even political movements, have been rooted for many people in religious teaching or interpretation. It's ridiculous to say that therefore abolitionism, civil rights, etc., constitute an imposition of religion on others.

Imposing religion means the mandating of religious practice. It does not mean the mandating of social policy that some people may have come to support for religious reasons.

But a certain kind of conservative is not content to argue that a religious underpinning for a policy is not disqualifying. He insists that it is uniquely qualifying, indeed that it confers some special status.

Romney has been faulted for not throwing at least one bone of acknowledgment to nonbelievers in his big religion speech last week. But he couldn't, because the theme of the speech was that there was something special about having your values drawn from religious faith. Indeed, faith is politically indispensable. "Freedom requires religion," Romney declared, "just as religion requires freedom."

But this is nonsense -- as Romney then proceeded to demonstrate in that very same speech. He spoke of the empty cathedrals in Europe. He's right about that: Postwar Europe has experienced the most precipitous decline in religious belief in the history of the West. Yet Europe is one of the freest precincts on the planet. It is an open, vibrant, tolerant community of more than two dozen disparate nations living in a pan-continental harmony and freedom unseen in all previous European history.

In some times and places, religion promotes freedom. In other times and places, it does precisely the opposite, as is demonstrated in huge swaths of the Muslim world, where religion has been used to impose the worst kind of unfreedom.

In this country, there is no special political standing that one derives from being a Christian leader like Mike Huckabee or a fervent believer like Mitt Romney. Just as there should be no disability or disqualification for political views that derive from religious sensibilities, whether the subject is civil rights or stem cells.

This is pretty elementary stuff. I haven't exactly invented hot water here. The very rehearsing of these arguments seems tiresome and redundant.

But apparently not in the campaign of 2008. It's two centuries since the passage of the First Amendment and our presidential candidates still cannot distinguish establishment from free exercise.

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About The Author

Charles Krauthammer is a 1987 Pulitzer Prize winner, 1984 National Magazine Award winner, and a columnist for The Washington Post since 1985.

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Religion in Politics
Charles:

I think you are missing the point in your discussion of the "No religious litmus test", part of the Constitution. What was intended was that the government could not set up any religious requirement for candidates for President. It was, in no way, intended to mean that I could not use religion as one of the means by which I evaluate a candidate.

Krauthammer's liberalism is showing
As a liberal I'm pretty much in agreement with Krauthammer's take on this issue. However, I think this is because Krauthammer, here at least, is not a conservative at all, but rather a liberal.

Genuine conservatism requires religious orthodoxy, and the Republican candidates are blundering around, bumping into this point without really recognizing it. Many American conservatives have begun to understand that from their ideological position, they should support a candidate who recognizes that a conservative America is a religious America, and that conservatives seek the power of government to maintain the social practices, values, and institutions that embody Christianity.

We liberals can go along with Krauthammer's claim that the " constitutional injunction against religious tests is meant to make citizens understand that such tests are profoundly un-American." Conservatives understand that their ideology calls for them to understand that such tests are the very essence of Americanism.

You seem to have left out one key item
Okay. Fine. But have you noticed who is really stoking the furnace on this issue? Not much from the candidates themselves. After letting people know that he was coming from a Christian world view (a fair enough disclosure to make to the voters) he was later pressed (by the press) to say whether or not he believed Mormons were a cult. He declined and said he did not want to get into theology. What happened? He was roundly criticized by press and pundits for not venturing into the subject. Now he asks a question in a lengthy conversation with the NYT (of all people) and that is considered confirmation that he is trying to appeal to anti-Mormon bigotry! Who is making this into a big issue? Mostly columnists and news people who need a big issue. Huckabee may or may not be the best man for this nation, some of the press's inflation of the issue is ridiculous.

Willsfriend gets it
The background of the No Religious Litmus Test clause has to be considered; and for those of you too young to have been to school when history was taught, this was a reaction to the bloody history of Great Britain where religious war was the race war of the day ... and not unlike every other amendment to the Constitution, it was placed there as A RESTRICTION ON THE GOVERNMENT, AND NOT ON THE PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY.

The clause was written as a warning TO THE GOVERNMENT that they might not require a man to be a Protestant, a Catholic, a Jew, a Mormon, a Druid or a Hindu (for example) in order to hold public office.

What it does NOT do is forbid me, a devout Catholic, from considering Rudy's putative Catholicism as one of the criteria on which I evaluate his candidacy, as a datum equal with his adultery, his multiple divorces, the contract the Mob put out on him, his lack of hair, and his behaviour vis-a-vis 9/11.

People whose education consists of Rock and Roll from a Transgender Perspective and how to put condoms on cucumbers persist in viewing the Constitution and its Amendments as restrictions to INDIVIDUALS. This is wrong.

NYT
I've seen people like this NYT reporter who spend their whole life saying "hey Mike did you hear what Mitt said about you?" Then the next day saying "hey Mitt did you hear what Mike said about you?" They sit at a safe distance and for their own ammusement provoke most of the fights people get into.

I think Huckleberry Hound has something of which he is probably unaware, that will protect him, because he looks like your little brother, and as soon as the big brothers say anything, they appear to be bullying him and everybody wants to protect him. I have not made up my mind yet whom I will support, and it bothers me that I keep having the reaction to protect him, that is clearly from something other than being a supporter, probably not a good reason for choosing the leader of the free world, but I suppose people have voted for reasons that are even sillier, best hair... :)

Jesus and the Devil brothers?
If you ask any Christian leader or theologian that has studied this their entire life three questions it will make my point. 1) How did God the Father beget Jesus the Son of God. 2) How did God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit create spirit beings like the Devil? 3) What is the difference between being begotton of God and being created by God?

Nobody knows how these things happened, but the Christian reality is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit always have been and always will be, three separate persons who have always been one God, in some kind of eternal family. They created a lot of spirit beings that run everything in the universe. Some are good and some oppose God and are evil like Satan. I have never been a Morman nor had any interest in studiying their teachings or theology, but on this one point, I seriously doubt that God will send any of them to hell because they thought Satan was originally a part of the Family less powerful than Jesus that rebelled, instead of the orthodox teaching that he was a created being less powerful than Jesus that rebelled.

My religion is MY business
If you ask me about my religion I have two choices: 1) I can tell you it's a personal matter and decline to answer. 2) I can view your inquiry as an open door to share the details of my faith and pressure you to convert or be in danger of an eternity separated from God.

I will respect a politician who articulates either answer. What I won't respect is someone trying to "spin" the religion issue in a way that tries to please a target constituency in an effort to garner their vote.

The only religious question worth asking
a candidate is, "How does your religion affect your defense and upholding of the Constitution and Bill of Rights?" If (s)he cannot uphold or defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights because their religion then they are categorically unfit for office.

If they can, it is actually a political question, "Do you see the Constitution as a living, evolving document (more of a liberal view), or do you interpret it literally and view it as unchanging?" (more of a conservative view.)The next obvious question is, "What is the role of government?"

People should understand that there are dozens of denominations and hundreds of theological views that fall under the label "Christian." If citizens actually plan to vote with someone who shares their definitions of theological terms and their theological views, they are unlikely to find an acceptable candidate anywhere.

chas
You said: "I have never been a Morman nor had any interest in studiying their teachings or theology, but on this one point, I seriously doubt that God will send any of them to hell because they thought Satan was originally a part of the Family less powerful than Jesus that rebelled, instead of the orthodox teaching that he was a created being less powerful than Jesus that rebelled."

I completely agree with you here and it brings to mind a response to those that ask "Why is asking this question so offensive?"

Yes, asking what one's beliefs are is not offensive in and of itself. But the way one asks it, the kind of words one uses can be. It was obvious that this belief is being bandied around so that evangelical Christians will just shout in horror that one could have such a belief, instead of looking at the way you did, chas.

The point of bringing it up is not to have a discussion about it, it's to create a media frenzy about someone's beliefs, to make it sound worse than it is, without understanding it at all (and understanding it does not mean accepting it or agreeing with it).

I will honestly say that some of the teachings of Mormonism are weird to me and don't sound like the Christian teachings I had in Catholic school. Then again, I've had non-Catholic Christians, Jews, and just non-religious people aske me all kinds of questions about some of the "weird" things that go on at a Catholic Mass.

Part 2
If you don't "understand" something, it will seem weird. Once it is explained, even if you don't share the belief, at least you understand why someone is doing it, it seems less weird and you can have a better relationship with that person because of it.

Bigotry is based on ignorance and it can lead to hate. Why would Huckabee want to push that kind of agenda? Why not talk about the political issues instead of asking such questions?

To quote one of Murphy's Laws: Everybody is everybody else's weirdo.

Just believing that maybe Lucifer was a little bit higher up on the scale of beings, even being Jesus' brother, and then falling from grace, just makes the story a little bit interesting, but I don't think it's automatically a sacrilege to say it. It's not a picture of a cross in urine for heaven's sake! It's not lurid pictures of the Virgin Mary. Now that would be offensive.

But to have a slightly different take on what Satan is about, without praising Satan in anyway (I don't think anyone has said that about Mormons or shown any proof of it), means absolutely nothing and to constantly repeat it and for Huckabee to say it, when he knows damn well what the Mormons believe, is just plain old offensive and unnecessary and only meant for shock value.

Why don't we start asking Huckabee some questions about what he believes? Then can we be shocked about it? Or would evangelical Christians cry "persecution" and "discrimination".

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

knee deep
in stupidity is more like it. All the posturing reminds me of a car salsman. Spin the answers into what you think the majority wants to hear.

I say let each canidate tell us his or her vision for our future, and their take on their responsibilities. It would sure make the choice a lot easier than a bunch of lame questions that have nothing to do with the office they seek.

1 - ladychritsyna
I have been evangelical all my life and it has taken most of my life to make sense out of the nonsense they teach. I have seen a lot of stuff remaining from many battles with Catholics and other Protestants, and trying to convert Catholics, which I have rejected. I think they empower the apostasy by the hostility to your traditions. But the country is splintered irreparably into many small groups. There has been too much focus by the educated experts on the individual rather than the group, too much focus on competition rather than cooperation, too much focus on attacking the man so that everyone will have equal power, too much focus on learning to love yourself and actualization rather than loving and being obligated to family, too much focus on survival of the fittest rather than God's image...

2- ladychritsyna
It takes a lot of force to keep a society together, like all the kids being in Catholic schools, demanding everyone speak the English language with no exceptions. Patriotism and the history of the founding fathers must be imposed. Every kid must be taught economic differences during the cold war between North Korea and South Korea, between East Germany and West Germany, between China and Japan. All of these could make it so that whoever you encountered anywhere in the country, they would have the same basic understanding of what it means to be a US citizen, what it means to be a Christian, and what it means to be a capitalist. Now as a result of too many years of too much freedom, we are splintering into small tribes like the independent mega-churches that have the shortest lists possible of requirements for salvation and for orthodoxy. Now the successful identifying themselves by their school mascot the rest of their lives, how many companies like Enron do we have? Now the losers forming street gangs like Crypts and Bloods every group makes all its own rules and is patriotic to the small group, speaks the language of the small group. Neither political party can find a way to address regional differences it will result in tribalism.

Sorry Charlie
But its way past time for secularist views to take the back seat, and we can talk about important issues as religion.

quote: Krauthammer
"This campaign is knee-deep in religion, and it's only going to get worse"


Much better than being ankle deep in politics of lying politicians, secularists propaganda and ego trips.

Why does the "press" get a pass?
Some of you blame this controversy on Huckabee, as if he runs the press in this country and tells all the pundits what to write about.

I know we all know that is not close to the truth.
If this controversy is now in the public, it came about from the press itself.

No one had to report or write a word about it, but because they thrive on gossip and not reporting on important issues, like the invasion from Mexico, they offer up this bilge.

Knowing the bias out here will fuel the storm, and they sit back and watch with glee filled eyes.

And now come and have the gall to blame it on Huckabee.
And NO, I will not be voting for this liberal dressed up as a conservative anymore than I will vote Rudy or Romeny, two other RINO's.
Hunter/Tancredo/Paul
All better men

I'm a great fan of Krauthammer
but, we can short-circuit the continuing argument on religion. We aren't going to agree anyway, so I'm begging all of us to get off it. The elites and MSM are happy to keep us separated on religion, and ignoring the issues that will determine whether or not this country continues to exist as we have known it.

Instead,I want to see some clear pro/con on the important issues we need to analyze. How about those posting do very brief comparisons of the positions of Huck-Thompson-Romney-Rudy-McCain and share your VERY BRIEF analyses. Compare two by two, perhaps, on immigration, entitlement reform, taxes, Islamist fanatics,Supreme Court appointments, health care. That's a dicussion worth having. And NO emotion or attacks, just info, please.

Reviewing Romney's Candidacy
Conservatives want Conviction & Clarity and Romney has not demonstrated either to be part of his character. Bush informed americans he was born again, believed in the sactity of life and marriage and that is why he was pro-life and defined marriage as one man and one woman - he was re-elected with 51% of the votes. This is what a man of conviction and clarity does - not call people bigots or confused if they question how his faith influences his presidency!!!!!!! ALL AMERICANS should link Romney to his Religion because he vowed "to remain true to the faith of his fathers if elected as president", and his friend Hewitt described him, not as an american in the whitehouse but as a mormon in the whitehouse. Linking Romney to the LDS institution means a clinton presidency with 41-45% of the vote. This strategy of linking a candidate or issue to something "questionable" is very effective - Bush/Cheny used it by linking Gore to the Clinton administration i.e. the clinton/gore administration. They also used it to link Iraq to terrorism and convince americans it was necessary to go into Iraq (over 65% americans supported the war within this context) linking Iraq to terrorism was how americans supported the war and that was all that mattered. If Hugh did not mean for people to take the title of his book seriously - he should have picked a different name. This link will cost the republicans the women voters, and the minority voters in large numbers - never mind the "truth" about polygamy and allowing blacks to become members at the LDS institution (Remember Trent Lott????). Americans may forgive adultry, inconsistent immigration or abortion records but sexism and racism is taken seriously and causes people not to trust the person linked to such an organization.

How arrogant (part 1)
Charles, how truly arrogant of you to suggest that individual voters should not so much as consider the stated faith beliefs of candidates. And how completely absurd to suggest that the constitutional proscription against a government-imposed religious test for office is meant to "teach" individual citizens that they too should not consider religion. Your analogy to civil rights legislation is bizarre. Civil rights legislation is actually intended to legally proscribe individual (not just government) behavior in addition to teaching tolerance. By your logic, the First Ammendment proscription against government establishing religion must also be meant to "teach" individual citizens that they should not establish religion either (in other words, because the government can't promote a particular religion, neither should any individual citizen). That's crazy.

How arrogant (part 2)
Actually, I'm thoroughly confident that even you do not truly subscribe to your own proclomation regarding individual voters considering religion in voting decisions. Think of the wackiest religion you know of (maybe Scientiology, or the John Frum religion). Now, suppose a presidential candidate was a fervent believer in that religion. Wouldn't you say, "Gee, that guy seems to lack the basic rationality and good judgment I'm looking for in a leader of this great nation. I think I'll check out some of the other candidates." My point is that religious beliefs shouldn't be so sacred (pardon the pun). They're just beliefs, like any other beliefs about the world, and they should be subject to the same scrutiny as any other philosophical beliefs that may in any way influence a leader's judgment and behavior in office.

There are some faiths that I consider silly, and I would judge believers in those faiths unfit for office based on their subscription to silliness. There are some faiths I consider immoral, and I would judge believers in those faiths unfit for office based on immorality. That's the power given to the voters in a democracy. The voters get to exercise their preferences and should be allowed to consider any characteristics of the candidates that matter to them and that they think may influence the candidate's performance in office in any way. Surely strongly held religious beliefs (or even a complete lack of religious conviction) influence people's values, principles, judgments, and actions. How then can we say such beliefs are irrelevant when evaluating a candidate?

If the people care about faith, let them care. If you don't care about faith, then don't care -- but don't presume to tell others that they must be like you.

Charles Krauthammer - I disagree...


Charles Krauthammer: “I'd thought that the limits of professed public piety had already been achieved during the Republican CNN/YouTube debate when some squirrelly looking guy held up a Bible and asked, "Do you believe every word of this book?" -- and not one candidate dared reply: None of your damn business.”


It’s not a matter of ‘daring’, it’s a simple question. I realize the question was probably intended to belittle and demean, but shouldn’t anyone who professes to be a Christian answer it simply and honestly, whether he or she is running for public office or not?



~~~



Charles K: "The right answer, the only answer, is that the very question is offensive."


I strongly disagree.


Where is it written that a Christian ought to hide his light under a bushel (cf. Luke 11:33)? Where is it written that it is okay for a Christian to deny Christ before men (cf. Matthew 10:33), or that a Christian should not be ready always to give a reason for the hope that is in him (cf. 1 Peter 3:15)?


No, there is nothing “offensive” about the question, the question is a good one.


What is offensive is the intent to mock that I strongly suspect was behind the question. I cannot know the questioner’s motive or heart, but it seems clear that he was not interested in truth or understanding, he just wanted to put them on the spot and laugh at them when they gave their answer. That was his choice, and he will answer for it (as will we all for our actions, cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10).


The people to whom the question was addressed had their own choice to make, and a Christian would hopefully use the opportunity to glorify God, regardless of the possible negative consequences to his pursuit of public office.



~~~



Charles K. writes: “The Constitution prohibits any religious test for office.”


I don’t believe it was a “test for office”, it was a (minor) test of faith, and there is nothing “un-American” about that…


Sarah couldn't be more wrong
I don't think she has clue 1 as to what she's talking about.
Romney has both Character and Conviction or he wouldn't have been able to accomplish what he has in his lifetime.
If she's inferring that the LDS Church allows polygamy, then she hasn't bothered to study the issue at all as the church disallowed the practice in 1890.
As to racism, there has never been a racist policy in the church. If she's actually studied our history she'd know that too.

Different Gods
The Left and Right see God differently. The Left sees the God of Hillary and Obama as one that demands government be used to produce a society that is equal in outcome. This is a God of extreme structure and little freedom and makes people comfortable by wrapping them in the swaddling clothes of eternal infancy.

The Right sees a God that loves us but puts us out there to make of life what we will. This God allows failure in this life and scares the crap out of those that don't want responsibility for themselves.

The Europeans have abandoned the God of the right and embraced the God of the Left. That has left them unable to defend their society from an invasion by believers in a God that demands such structure to society that the individual ceases to exist. Should that God become dominant in Europe the freedom Charles writes of will disappear.

Europe has an identity crisis
"Yet Europe is one of the freest precincts on the planet. It is an open, vibrant, tolerant community of more than two dozen disparate nations living in a pan-continental harmony and freedom unseen in all previous European history."

No Europe is now overrun by Muslims, who unlike most secular Europeans, know who they are and what they believe.

Doug Giles is that you?
"No Europe is now overrun by Muslims, who unlike most secular Europeans, know who they are and what they believe."

Secularism doesn't cause an identity crisis and Europe is still vibrant & free.

That non-Westerners immigrating to Europe cause problems makes a good case for immigration control, not faith in a higher being.

Were we to allow millions of Moslems to move to America, our general religiosity wouldn't spare us the same problems. Nor is Europe's Moslem immigration policy a product of secularism, any more than our religiosity is responsible for Mexican immigration: proximity is the explanation.

It is none of your business ...
This country has Freedom Of Religion! To everyone, my religious beliews, or lack thereof, is None Of Your Business! So take a long walk on a short pier! IMHO!

Charles, your first page had me going
I was with you all the way; until you started down the "law is our teacher" path, then lost me completely with your praise of the "harmony and freedom" of Europe. Have you been paying attention to what's happening over there?

Charles Krauthammer
The pragmatist argument is strongest. Yet your disproving of John Adam and Mitt’s maxim that liberty requires morals born of religion is too simplistic because your judgement of Europe is short sighted. The wide spread liberties in Europe are existentially ephemeral. As a result of their religionless liberty European’s are refusing to reproduce. It is only a matter of a few generations and the great European liberty will give way to the opposite extreme of Eurabian Sharia. It is then when the pragmatist may pass judgement on religionless society.

Correction on Mormonism
CharlieS writes: "Sarah couldn't be more wrong
I don't think she has clue 1 as to what she's talking about....If she's inferring that the LDS Church allows polygamy, then she hasn't bothered to study the issue at all as the church disallowed the practice in 1890. As to racism, there has never been a racist policy in the church. If she's actually studied our history she'd know that too."

Ah, Charlie, Sarah is right on the mark, and if you had studied just a wee bit of your doctrine and history beyond what the Mormon propaganda machine spews out, you'd know that. The LDS still has D&C 132 as a revelation from God. It claims to be "a new and an everlasting covenant...for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory." God says to "abide the law or he shall be damned." The LDS only put a pause on polygamy for expediency. As for racism, the fact that the LDS teaches the war in the pre-existence is was the reason for the "curse" of black skin sounds pretty racist to me. Until the past few decades the LDS church taught that blacks were not to intermarry with whites, and Brigham Young stated God told him that if a black person and a white person were to have sex they were to be put to death on the spot. But I guess that's not racist in the minds of Mormons.

Gestell
"Genuine conservatism requires religious orthodoxy..."


Not it doesn't. I hate it when someone tells me what I believe. Conservatism does not require any religious belief. What it requires is that our leaders actually follow the constitution of this country and not some "world view" of it. In addition, a conservative sees less government as better. A large government tends to become more dictatorial with increasing power. For example, I do NOT want some government doof telling me how may times I can go to McDonalds in a month.

As a conservative I strongly believe in freedom of religion. What I do not like is this tendency to force freedom FROM religion in all public settings.

here here
well said

reply to kimbergrl
Of course you can believe what you want about conservatism, but you didn't invent the ideology so you can't just make it up as you go along.

Here is an example of what I mean: In "American Consrvatism: An Encyclopedia," a 1000 page book published by ISI (a conservative organization and publisher), the following defintion of conservatism appears on p. 180.:

"Conservatism is a philosophy that seeks to maintain and enrich societies characterized by respect for inherited institutions, beliefs and practices, in which individuals develop good character by cooperating with one another in primary, local associations such as families, churches and social groups aimed at furthering the common good in a manner pleasing to God."

This is what conservatism is about; this is the theme that runs through Burke and the vast majority of genuine conservatives. Note that the only way in which we can know what is "pleasing to God" is if someone, somewhere provides an authoritative interpretation of what God wants, and the rest of society buys into it.

I suspect you're really a libertarian, not a conservative.

HomeschoolMom
I have the same problem. Islam is not compatible with our constitution and at some point I prefer this to be faced head on. I know of no other religion that is so incompatible.

Of course, I know our tolerance of everyone's intolerance greatly exceeds our rationality and that our government will ignore the issue.

Is my admiration for civilizations that hated human sacrifice showing?

reply to Scott
One of the cool things about evangelical Christianity is that you know it all and don't have to do much thinking. Here's my point: there are lots of Christians who don't think that the idea that the Bible should be taken literally is necessary for Christianity. So, only a specific type of Christian--an evangelical Christian--is interested in that issue. And I'm sure you're correct that the preson who asked the question was just doing it to put candidates on the spot.

You, however, believe the question to be a legitimate one; here's what's wrong with that.
The question points toward a very specific kind of "religious test" for office-seekers and office-holders. The existence of Christian communities that do not believe in the literal truth of everything in the Bible is a fact. Therefore, the question comes from a specific Christian tradition, not from Christianity in general. The question is really: "Do you, the candidate, believe what we evangelicals believe?"
The hidden premise is of course that only the evangelical understanding of Christianity is correct, and that, my friend, is what is meant by the word "sectarian." The question imposes a "sectarian" test, and is thus about as anti-American as anything I've seen on TH in the past day or two.

religion in government
Keep at it and we will be like a many Arab nations where religion is dictated by the government. Lets take Iran as example. They have dictated that religion permeate all aspects of their society. If you are an artists you must only express religion themes. Same for authors, religious police stalk the streets and harass women who do not have their head covered.
Or how about the early days of the Catholic church. The Pope's were corrupt and thrived on power, money and punishment for those who deviated form the church's rules.

Government and politics must be kept separate. We have had plenty of examples to show that it doesn't work. Bush is one great example that electing a leader because of his religious background DOES NOT WORK.

Religion yes!
As a Christian it is my duty to say what I believe when asked. It is also my duty to give credit where credit is due. To thank my god that I was born in the greatest country the world has ever known. I also believe it is my duty to defend the principles this country were founded on. Not the least of which is the free expression clause.
Our president believed fully in this when he first took office, and mentioned his beliefs regularly. Now he has surrendered to the lefts incessant harping that he wears his religion on his sleeve, and rarely if ever speaks of his belief. What a wuss! The late great Ronald Reagan wore his religion on his sleeve to his death bed. He still remains the greatest president of my generation, and maybe any generation!
The idea of the establishment clause is for the government not to shove any particular religion down the throats of the people. The idea of the free expression clause was to encourage people to be religious and good. That is really the bottom line! So, if one does not answer such a question, that says something about the depth of ones beliefs.
Be proud of your god! “The God who gave us life gave us liberty” (not sure who wrote that) I thank god for my liberty regularly.
Love ya Charles but we have to make a statement in favor of religion, and keep screaming it from the rooftops!
I know those asking the questions really are not interestet in the answers so much, but are trying to put the candidates in a bad light. We have to answer, and be proud of what we believe.

chicaree, you've got that wrong.
__You wrote, "Bush is one great example that electing a leader because of his religious background DOES NOT WORK." Looks to me like it's working pretty good. When you consider there are over 200 million Christians in this nation, and we're finally fighting the evil the left embraces, it looks like we are finally back on the path. The straight path, without the diversions of those wandering off the path, in search of self prosperity. The wandering gypsies with all their glitz, and glamor, voicing a "change", and to follow me. Those of a singular ideology, who twist the written doctrine, for their own interest. "Evil will always do what is good, in the eyes of evil." Both are of securing power, prosperity, and control to keep it for self.

reply to bobby g
REad my reply to Scott to learn why you are a narrow sectarian.

RELIGION IN POLITICS
RELIGION, THE FIRST HIDING PLACE OF SCOUNDRELS. "IT'S THE CONSTITUTION, STUPID!" THINK ABOUT IT.

Gestell
I agree with your post to Scott. However, there are a couple of tweaks: "Evangelical" literally means to preach the Gospel to the nonbeliever; "Biblical Inerrancy" is the doctrine that every word in the Bible is God-given and therefore indisputable. According to Wikipedia (I know, I know, not everybody on TH respects it as a source), Martin Luther gave us the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy when arguing against Papal Inerrancy. Some, maybe most Evangelicals espouse Biblical Inerrancy; however, there are some Episcopal Evangelicals (and perhaps others) who don't entirely. Many years ago I attended an Episcopal church with an Evangelical minister.

Funny how the Baptist preacher, who one would expect believers trust as the one most likely to recognize Divine Intent is the one who is drawing all the flack from the Conservative Christians. They like his social policies, but are less enthusiastic about his other positions. Guess God only talks to one side of his brain.

I'm not wild about his social positions, but as a FairTax supporter I'm leaning in his direction. I truly wish either Romney or Rudy would get behind the FairTax. Or Ron Paul if he weren't for immediate withdrawal from Iraq.

Let's Worship Krauthammer
His clear-sighted analysis is always well worth reading.
In this column the most important point that he makes is the downside of this religious issue for Republicans. Excessive religiosity is a BIG turnoff for most Americans. The idea that the Born-Agains would be given governmental power to make abortion illegal,censure the media and teach their crackpot Creationism in science classes is repellent to a very large proportion of the American electorate. The Republican Party has been reduced to a very minor player in California politics because of the obsession that the Repubs have with the 'Social' issues. When Arnold was able to bi-pass the primary process in the recall election he was able to win in a landslide. His later move to the left occurred after he was abandoned by the Republican Party's insiders.
The 'Social' issues are as big of a liability to the Reps as immigration, national security and taxes are to the Dems.

THANK YOU, CHARLES

As a conservative I thank you for bringing this issue of religious pandering to the fore. If more conservatives were like you I'd switch from a Democrat to a Republican. What prevents me is this obsession with religion that has taken hold of the party. Keep up the great work.

Democrats do it to, but only because if not they'd be accused by the right of being Godless Communists.

Roger + "Democrats do it to," (too)
__There are both, republican, and democrats, of the Christian faith, but who uses that religion. While most republicans use it as an example of morals, and values, the liberal left enjoys the pleasure of those morals, and values. It's a treasure trove of votes, just waiting to be exploited. The liberal left speaks of the trials, and tribulations, faced by their base of factions in America, and the Christian heart is drawn to the cause. It works good for the democrat left, just as it works good in the eyes of the Christian congregation. It allieviates their burden of assisting neighbors, thus creating a false sense of following the Word. You are correct, demoncrats use religion too.

To Expound Truth

The late philosopher Richard Rorty said that liberals put a premium on suffering above all else. This fits well with your analysis. So why no commonground, then? To your point as well; perhaps it is because the Christian Fundamentalist churches emphasize being saved through faith rather than deeds.


It is hard to say "Jesus is Lord" with
the secular world figuratively throwing you into a coliseum full of hungry lions for the pleasure of a mob bent on enjoying their bread and circus...unless you confessed "Ceasar is Lord". So...I'm very happy and gratified to hear the Christian candidates boldly declaring their faith anyway! I like Mike.

Isn't that the truth.
__I've always wondered why they do not follow in the footsteps of the Word they preach. Can you imagine how much good that could be done if they got over their faith in the temple. I have noticed, in one community, the different congregation leaders holding monthly meetings. Sessions in which they put behind their doctrinal differences, and spoke about solving problems in the community. We have over 200 million God loving people in this nation, and just think what they could do united. "Charity starts at home", creates a strong root that grows beyond the bounds of home. Those piddly attempts to create overseas missions, that produce a little value, could be greatly enforced with a united force. It will never be done with seperate forces attemting to create, and build, single force from the whole of society. The individual needs, of every individual, cannot be united with the, seperate, individual doctrines of temples, politicians, or groups in society. There is one Word, and one Constitution, that unites, while individual passions divide.

GESTELLE* WRONG - KIMBERGIRL RIGHT

.....Gestelle* ...pull your head out ...Conservatism is not a philosophy ...I don't care what your reference book says ...Conservatism is an ideology and one can be as Atheistic as Madalyn Murray O'Hare and still be a Conservative ...

.....Are you trying to say that Atheists, Agnostics or Deists cannot be Political Conservatives? ...I think you have a bias against Christians and that is your right but how many Democrat Christians call themselves Liberals? ...in fact Jesus seemed pretty Liberal to me ...

.....Let's separate Religion from Politics and Philosophy from ideology shall we .....COLOSSUS

My Grandfather Used To Say...
...son you're voting for a (fill in the blank) not a damned preacher! He was one of the most Christian men I ever knew and he loathed Jimmy Carter because "he couldn't keep his religion in church - where it belongs." I miss my grandfather but I'm glad he's not having to put up with the cr*p we've been getting fed to us lately.

CHARLES

.....The Federal Constitution does not mention God ...in fact it does not mention religion until the First Amendment ...by contrast all 50 State Constitutions mention God ...or acknowledge a Creator in their preamble ...maybe we should let the states handle God in the Public Square ...

.....A man's religion should only be of interest to a voter if the voter believes that the President will let his religion dictate how he governs ...if the President allow his religion to override the Constitution then he has broken his oath of office and should not be President ...

.....This is why I can't support Huckabee because I believe he would overrule the Constitution in favor of his religious faith .....COLOSSUS

LDS "Doctrine"
It's amazing how many experts there are on LDS doctrine. I know Evangelicals and other so-called christian churches spend millions teaching their flocks about what some Mormons believe and pass it as official doctrine of the LDS church. FIne, believe what you want, but you are no expert on what LDS doctrine is. Just as you are no expert on anything or anyone but yourself. It is laughable that you correct others on what they believe and what their heritage is based on what one person might have said, or even a few people might have thought. The LDS church has no official creed. They abhor it. However, in order to convert, you must confess that you beleive that God lives, and Jesus is the Christ the only Savior. Perhaps some of the evangelicals should invite the Mormon missionaries in to get a real understanding of what they believe. Stop asking a pastor who is getting paid to preach. There is a real conflict of interest when you get paid for preaching "truth." Good luck.

Gestell - You are mistaken about me...


Hi Gestell,


Gestell writes: “One of the cool things about evangelical Christianity is that you know it all and don't have to do much thinking.”


Why would you address this to me? As I have expressed elsewhere on this Forum, while I certainly believe in sharing God’s Word with anyone who might listen, I don’t believe I fit into the category of “Evangelical Christian” as it is generally used today.


I am non-denominational, neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant. To the extent that I am in agreement more often with Protestants than Roman Catholics, this is because Protestants are generally more in agreement with God’s Word in the Bible than Roman Catholics. The Word of God in the Bible is the highest source of Authority in matters of God, not the Roman Catholic Church or any councils of men in the Protestant denominational churches.


But specifically as to your charge that I “know it all and don’t have to do much thinking”… please make a specific accusation and then back it up.


If your perception is true, then I should be easy pickins ;-)


Gestell - saying it doesn't make it so..


Gestell writes: “Here's my point: there are lots of Christians who don't think that the idea that the Bible should be taken literally is necessary for Christianity.”


Lots of people call themselves Christians, but what matters is whether God considers him or her a Christian, not what they call themselves:


“For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.” (2 Corinthians 10:18, KJV)


So you see, it really doesn’t matter if there are lots of people who call themselves Christians “who don’t think that the idea that the Bible should be taken literally is necessary for Christianity” or not, because those people have identified themselves as not actually being Christians, regardless of what they may call themselves.


Do you understand what I mean? People can call themselves whatever they want, and many people call themselves Christians, but that doesn’t necessarily make it so. It is God who determines who belongs to Him, according to whether we obey Him; it is not for us to simply assert that we belong to Him. God is not obligated to accept us simply because we say we’re “Christians”.


So in order for a person (who is old enough to know right from wrong) to be eligible to be a Christian (i.e., a follower or disciple of Christ), one must necessarily know what it is that Christ requires and expects of us in order to be a Christian. The only place to find that information is in God’s Word in the Bible.


Ergo, if one does NOT believe the Bible contains the inspired Word of God (specifically the underlying Koine Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic documents from which our relatively modern versions are translated), then it is a practical impossibility to know or believe what God requires us to know and understand in order to be a Christian.


Is any of this making sense to you on a simple, logical level?


What “lots of Christians” think doesn’t matter; what God thinks does matter.


There’s a big difference.


Gestell - Not so difficult to understand


Gestell writes: “So, only a specific type of Christian--an evangelical Christian--is interested in that issue.”


Those who are often derisively called “Fundamentalist” Christians would certainly take exception to being excluded from those who take the Bible literally, and then there are also people like myself. You might consider me a “Fundamentalist”, but I don’t belong to any “Fundamentalist” denomination (if such a thing exists).



~~~



Gestell writes: “You, however, believe the question to be a legitimate one; here's what's wrong with that.”


Whether I think the question was “legitimate” (which I do) or not doesn’t really matter; it is a legitimate question as far as the Word of God is concerned (Luke 11:33, Matthew 10:33, 1 Peter 3:15, etc.), and that’s what matters.


Now, a person who doesn’t believe the contents of the Bible are the Word of God can disagree, but people who don’t believe the Bible contains the Word of God cannot be Christians, by definition.


Do you understand? Do you see that it’s not a matter of personal opinion, it’s a practical impossibility?


If you do not believe the Bible contains the inspired Word of God, then you cannot be a Christian according to God’s definition, you can only be a so-called “Christian” according to some man’s (or group of men’s) definition, and men do not get to decide what makes one a Christian and what does not, God decides that (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:18).


This is not complicated or difficult to understand, it’s just not what some people want to hear. Those who disagree with God’s Word necessarily have an argument with God, not with me, but I’m happy to demonstrate what the Word of God in the Bible actually says, to the best of my ability.


To the extent that anyone disagrees with what His Word says, I know they will want to personalize it to me, but their disagreement is necessarily with Him.


At best, I am only a messenger.


Gestell - It's a simple question, really


Gestell writes: “The question points toward a very specific kind of "religious test" for office-seekers and office-holders.”


The question doesn’t point to anything, it’s a simple question: "Do you believe every word of this book?"


The answer is either yes, or the answer is no. No tap-dancing is required, no spin, no loop-holes. Different people certainly believe the Word of God means different things, but you either believe the Bible contains the inspired Word of God, faithfully preserved and transmitted across time, or you don’t.


If you don’t, then you have declared that you are not a Christian as far as God’s Word is concerned, regardless of whatever you might call yourself. It’s like saying you’re a doctor but you don’t think you need a medical degree to perform surgery. You can say you’re a doctor if you like, it’s a free country, but if you try to operate on someone without medical license, you’re going to find out that your perception of your status as a “doctor” is in conflict with the proper legal authorities.


In matters of God, God is the proper legal Authority, and unless He is talking to you directly (and you can prove it!), the only thing we have to go by is His inspired Word in the Bible. If a person does not acknowledge His Word is true, then he does not acknowledge God’s Authority, and if one does not acknowledge God’s Authority, one cannot be a Christian, by definition.


This is not rocket-science, but if you see a flaw in my reasoning or logic, I trust you will not hesitate to bring it to my attention ;-)


Gestell - Any Christian can answer "yes"


Gestell writes: “The existence of Christian communities that do not believe in the literal truth of everything in the Bible is a fact.”


It may be a fact, but it is an irrelevant fact. There are all kinds of people who don’t believe in the literal truth of everything in the Bible; some of those people call themselves Christians, many don’t. None of that has anything to do with whether the men running for president who were asked the question can answer it simply and honestly.


Incidentally, it would help to better clarify what we are talking about. God was not trying to “trick us”; we ought to consider His Word using our ability to reason and discern, just as we would any other written document. Therefore, we ought to take His Word literally, until or unless we have good cause to take a passage or verse figuratively (e.g., if God’s Word tells us that a passage is figurative, or if a passage is figurative by necessary inference), just like we would any other written document.


What I mean is, not all of the Bible is literal, some parts are clearly and obviously figurative, but all of it is true (i.e., God does not lie), and therefore any Christian can certainly answer “yes” to the question "Do you believe every word of this book?".


Gestell - the question was simple...


Gestell writes: “Therefore, the question comes from a specific Christian tradition, not from Christianity in general.”


This could hardly be more wrong.


The belief that the Word of God is true is not from any “specific Christian tradition”, it’s what the Word of God in the Bible actually says. That’s not a “tradition” of men, it’s what the Word of God says, and we can look it up to be sure (Psalm 119:160, etc.).


What do you mean by “Christianity in general”? It is God who necessarily defines “Christianity”, and what God said is necessary in order for one to become a Christian can only be found in His Word. If one does not believe His Word is true, then again by definition, how can one become a Christian?


Can one become a Christian according to what some human says?


On Judgment Day, is what some human said going to matter, or is what God said going to matter?


“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48, KJV)


We can all know what God’s Word says. We all choose whether to believe it or not. We will all find out if men were right or whether God was right on Judgment Day.


It’s not that complicated, it’s just that many people don’t want to come to terms with it.



~~~



Gestell writes: “The question is really: "Do you, the candidate, believe what we evangelicals believe?"”


How could that possibly be the question? How can anyone definitively say they believe what some ill-defined and overly-broad group of people believes, whose positions may change at any given point in time? But we CAN say definitively whether we believe the unchanging Word of God is true.


The question was both personal and direct: "Do you believe every word of this book?"


The question was simple, there is no need to make it more complicated.


Gestell - The choice is ours...



Gestell writes: “The hidden premise is of course that only the evangelical understanding of Christianity is correct, and that, my friend, is what is meant by the word "sectarian."”


You may call it whatever you like, label it any way you want to, it makes no difference at all, except maybe to people who care about such worldly things. It matters not at all what the “evangelical understanding” is (whatever that may be), because “Evangelicals” won’t be deciding who goes to heaven and who goes to hell on Judgment Day.


According to God’s Word, God will be deciding that, and according to God’s Word He wants us to be saved:

"For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4, KJV)


He has promised to preserve His Word for us (Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, etc.), and His Word will accomplish all that He desires (Isaiah 55:11).


What matters is what God’s Word in the Bible *actually says*. We can accept His Word, or we can reject it.


The choice is ours.




Gestell - It is a non-national question.


Gestell writes: “The question imposes a "sectarian" test, and is thus about as anti-American as anything I've seen on TH in the past day or two.”


Despite your attempt to frame the debate in such a way, there is no “sectarian” test involved. I don’t doubt that from your worldly perspective that this is what you choose to believe, but that doesn’t make it true.


There is nothing either “anti-American” or “pro-American” about asking or answering "Do you believe every word of this book?".


It has to do with whether a person believes in God as He has made Himself known to us in His Word contained in the collection of 66 inspired books and letters commonly known as the “Bible”.


The question of whether someone believes every word of the Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with being an American. The same exact question could be asked and answered in any country in the world, or in the middle of the ocean, or while orbiting the earth in the Space Shuttle.


In that sense, it is a non-national question.



That's what the bullfrogs say
knee deep, knee deep, better go round

knee deep, knee deep, better go round

Bravo!
Mr. Krauthammer summarized my thoughts on this issue so well that I feel like I could've written this article myself (except not as eloquently as he has). Yes, as some of you have pointed out, the Constitutional test does not apply directly to individuals -- any person can choose to vote for or against any candidate for any reason whatsoever -- but the idea of basing a person's qualifications for President on his religious beliefs rather than his adherence to the Constitution is misplaced.

I think Homeschool Mom said it best:
"The only religious question worth asking
a candidate is, "How does your religion affect your defense and upholding of the Constitution and Bill of Rights?" If (s)he cannot uphold or defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights because their religion then they are categorically unfit for office."

Amen.

My support for or opposition to any candidate is not based on whether or not we agree the concept of grace or the divinity of Christ, it is for his or her adherence to Constitutional principles, free market capitalism, and individual liberty. A person's relationship with God is his or her own business.

repoly to baseballdoc
As an empirical fact, of course conservatives can be anything. However, note that most TH readers would not say the same thing about Christianity--the Christians who replied to my post made clear that "Christianity" means something very specific, and that for them the Bible has to be read in a very specific way, as literally true. Without that belief in literal truth, they wrote, a person is not a Christian, no matter what that person may actually think.

All I'm doing is applying a similar logic to "conservatism." Conservatism has a doctrinal content, a history, etc. All of this should impose some parameters for what a "conservative" believes. So, just as Christianity is not something you or I get to make up as we go along, neither is conservatism.

Bill Buckley put this much more cleverly than I years ago. In responding to a question about whether a Catholic could be a liberal, Buckely said that the answer was, yes, there were Catholic liberals. However, a Catholic who understands Catholicism correctly cannot be anyting but a conservative.

Let's try for some ideological quality control, so conservatives know what they really believe.
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