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Monday, August 13, 2007
Bill Steigerwald :: Townhall.com Columnist
Cool It - Interview with Bjorn Lomborg
by Bill Steigerwald
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Cool It: The Skeptical Environmentalist's Guide to Global Warming by Bjorn Lomborg (Knopf)

"Cool It" is not the first book Denmark's Bjorn Lomborg has written about global warming. Lomborg's heretical 2001 best-seller, "The Skeptical Environmentalist," drew a firestorm of nasty criticism and unveiled hatred from environmentalists and the global warming crowd because it said most of the bad effects of climate change have been grossly exaggerated. Named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in 2004, Lomborg -- a statistician by training -- believes global warming is occurring. But he also believes we should approach the problem rationally -- which means not wasting all our energy and resources today on global warming's long-run effects when there are more-pressing human-killing problems like malaria and malnutrition we should be addressing.

Q: What does “Cool It” refer to?

A: Well, of course it refers to the idea that we need to find a way in the long term to reverse global warming. But it also -- and perhaps more importantly in the current debate -- refers to the fact that we need to cool and temper our conversation on climate change. Right now there is a lot of hysteria going on, a lot of alarmism going on, and quite frankly, if we only hear one side of the story -- and often an exaggerated side of the story -- it’s unlikely we’ll make good judgments.

Q: Will you give us a brief synopsis of your book?

A: It tries to tell us three things. It first of all says global warming is real. The second point is to say that the effects of global warming are very often vastly exaggerated and one-sided and that doesn’t lead to good judgments. So that’s the third part, where I try to point out that we need a much smarter, much cooler way of talking about climate change and thinking about how we can do something about it in the long run. What I try to say is that we need to focus on things that are both cost-efficient and will solve climate change. Right now we talk about cutting CO2 emissions, which is expensive and which quite frankly will do very little good. What I talk about is cutting the cost of cutting emissions – that is, investing in research and development of non-carbon-emitting energy technologies like solar, like wind, like carbon-capture, energy efficiency – all these things. If we do that, we will leave a world where our kids and especially our grand kids will have a much easier time cutting their carbon emissions, simply because we’ve made it much cheaper. And therefore, both our kids and grandkids -- but also the Chinese and the Indians, who will be much richer in 2050 – will want to cut much more. So at the end of the day, it’s really, “Do we want to cut a little now at high cost or do we want to make sure the whole world will want to cut a lot at low cost because we’ve invested in research and development?”

Q: What is your position on global climate change?

A: I think it’s incontrovertible that it’s happening and that it’s at least partially caused by man. But it’s often vastly over-sold. The idea that we are going to see a 20-feet sea level rise is just simply not in the cards. The UN climate panel tells us it’s going to be about a foot. There’s a huge difference in telling us the sea level rise is going to be a foot over the next 100 years or it’s going to be 20 feet. One is a problem; the other one is a catastrophe. But it’s the problem that will actually happen. To put it in context, remember over the last 150 years sea levels also rose a foot. Yet was it something we noticed very much? Ask a very old person who lived through most of the 20th century what were the important things that happened and she’ll likely talk about the two world wars, the emancipation of women, and maybe the IT Revolution, but it’s very unlikely she’ll say, “Oh, and sea levels rose.”

Q: You aren’t a climate scientist and don’t even pretend to be one like Al Gore. What makes you qualified to write books about global warming?

A: Because I’m a social scientist and I’m a statistician and what I look at is “What are the social impacts of many of these things?” I simply take as a starting point what the U.N. climate panel tells us. But then I say, “We need to remember all the facts.” As I say, “The UN climate panel tell us one foot of sea level rise, so let’s not say 20 feet.” When the U.N. climate panel says we’ll see increasing temperatures that will mean that more people will die in heat waves. That’s absolutely true and everybody points that out. But of course increasing temperatures also means that fewer people will die in cold waves. And since in most parts of the world there are many more people dying from cold than from heat, we’ll actually see more people not dying from cold waves than extra people dying from heat waves. In the UK, it’s estimated that 2,000 more people will die from heat waves each year – a very much publicized fact. But we forget to hear that 20,000 fewer people will die from cold. That’s the point: I’m simply saying we need to hear both sides of that argument. It’s not a very complicated argument, but it’s one that’s absolutely necessary to hear.

Q: The reason we haven’t heard both sides of the argument, some of us would argue, is because the media has let us down by not playing fair and balanced.

A: The media, as you probably very well know, is not necessarily fair, because they love a good story which is often a bad story. I don’t think it’s because anyone is being inherently dishonest or trying to torture the facts. It’s much more that we as a human species have a tendency to only say, “Oh, my God what’s going to happen? Oh, bad things.” But perhaps we are forgetting to say, “If we are going to make good choices, we need to hear the whole story.” So I simply see this as a way of saying, “Oooh, let’s just remember that 2,000 are going to die from heat but 20,000 are not going to die from cold and we need both sides of that information.”

Q: What’s the most dangerous exaggeration about global warming that needs to be debunked or at least put into the proper perspective?

A: I don’t think there is any one. It’s the over all idea that humanity is somehow at stake, that this is a planetary disaster, or that we’re going to see the last remaining couples of humanoids at the end of this century wandering around close to the North Pole where they have a slight chance of survival. Those kinds of scenarios which have been put forward and gotten a huge amount of publicity by eminent people simply are not in the cards. Climate change is a problem, yes. But it’s by no means a catastrophe. Perhaps it’s important to say that in a world where 15 million people die each year from easily curable infectious diseases, it seems to me that we are missing our priorities when we focus so exclusively on one problem and forget that there are many others – and many others, mind you, where we can do much more good. So it comes down to this: What do we want to be remembered as this generation’s big achievement? Do we want it to be that we did a little bit about climate change? Or do we want it to be that we did a lot about many of the other problems in the world, like HIV/AIDS, malaria, malnutrition, clean drinking water, the list goes on?

Q: Who is Julian Simon and how has he influenced your thinking about global warming, its threat and its solution?

A: Julian Simon is a famous American economist who died in the late 1990s who pointed out that contrary to common belief, most environmental indicators, at least in the rich world, were not declining but actually getting better because as you get richer, you actually can afford to get better at dealing with the world’s problems. I set out to disprove him. I’m an old member of Green Peace. I worried intensely, as I think most of my friends did, that the world was coming apart. So I actually set out to disprove Simon. But much to my surprise, I found that much of what he said is actually true. I think what Julian Simon has taught me is that we should not just take whatever we worry very much about today as the final truth. We need to actually ask, “Yes. But what are the other important facts to make good judgments?” Do you remember how we worried intensely about the millennium bug in 1999? Do you remember how we worried about the avian flu just a year or two ago? And acid rain in the 1980s? None of these were incorrect in the sense that were not possible. But we were vastly over-panicked about them. It actually meant we worried about them and forgot about the many other problems. So I think what it really has meant to me is about taking back the perspective and remembering that we can’t fix all things, so we really have to be sure that we worry about the right things and in the right proportion.

Q: So what do we do about GW?

A: We need to realize that global warming is a 100-year problem that will need cooperation between generations, between political parties and between continents. This is something that has to be a political deal that will work throughout decades between different political parties and different countries throughout the world. It’s not one along the Kyoto (Protocol) lines, which basically means cut emissions now at fairly high cost but have very little benefit only 100 years from now. It should much rather be one that says let’s make cost-efficient efforts to make sure we cut the cost of cutting emissions. It’s about research and development and I specifically propose we invest 0.05 percent of GDP in research and development in non-carbon-emitting energy technologies -- this could be wind, solar, you name it. There are many different opportunities. The idea is, it’s 10 times cheaper than Kyoto. It’s likely going to be maybe 100 times cheaper than the follow-up to Kyoto, which is going to be negotiated in my home town, Copenhagen in 2009. And yet it’s a 10-fold increase in the research and development that we commit right now to these issues. So it is one that is doable, it is politically feasible and it is smart. In the long term, it will likely do much more good than Kyoto or son of Kyoto will ever do – and it will actually have the affect in the long term to halt global warming.

Q: Why should Al Gore read your book?

A: (Laughs) That’s a great question. I think Al Gore has done a great service in making global warming cool. He’s basically taken it from a nerdy, almost ignored issue to making it what it is -- namely, a problem. But I think he’s over-sold it in many ways to make people over-worried and therefore has actually done global warming a disservice, because we will end up having one of those fads where we worry very much about it and then it sort of passes out of fashion. If we are going to have a sustained effort over the next 100 years, we need much smarter approaches. Since he is one of the very visible spokespeople, I would certainly hope that he would also read this book and realize if we need long-term progress on climate change and all the world’s other woes, we need to be smart about it and this is one way -- and hopefully a very smart way -- forward that I’m proposing.

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About The Author
Bill Steigerwald, born and raised in Pittsburgh, is a former L.A. Times copy editor and free-lancer who also worked as a docudrama researcher for CBS-TV in Hollywood before becoming a reporter for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and a columnist Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Bill Steigerwald recently retired from daily newspaper journalism..
 
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He has already said enough when he
says he takes the UN Panel findings at face value. He says he is a "social scientist". There is no such science. Social studies is not a science, it is opinion and politics.

The only thing he has going for him is that he isn't a complete fruitcake like Albore.

A Calm Approach
A reasonable way of fixing the limited impact humanity has on global warming. He is destined to disappear.

As noted in the article, when people get richer as a country they can devote more time to the environment because they are not worrying where their next meal is coming from.

Sticker Shock
I may not be inclined to agree with the IPCC and the premise of AGW as much as Lomborg, but a guy like Lomborg can apply statistical, scientific, and economic calculations to problems like these and thereby inject a bit of common sense into the hysterics and doomsday scenarios that are being rammed down our throats.

As a statistician specializing in game theory, Lomborg and people like him are in a position to make statements such as :

"We can spend a trillion dollars globally per year and cut greenhouse gas emissions by 2%. We expect this will save XX million lives over the next century, but will also kill YY lives. We expect this will slow the overall economic growth of industrialized nations by XX% for YY years, and impact developing countries even more profoundly by ZZ%, resulting in an overall cost to society of XX trillion dollars per decade. Or, we can take that same trillion dollars and wipe out malaria. Or fix XX. Or correct YY. Or leave all this money in the hands of the taxpayer which will have XX and YY benefits to society as a whole."

Thus, I think guys like Lomborg provide a valuable function because they start to attach a price tag to this stuff and tell us what we can expect to get for that money. Personally, I think we will not only have major sticker shock, but we will realize that all we are buying is a smug sense that we are "doing something" even though it is too miniscule to make any significant difference. Thus, it will ultimately end up being an "assuage our guilt" tax that does nothing to actually impact climate change.

But I'm also enough of a realist to know that for every guy that says we'll spend a trillion and get virtually nothing in return, there will be an army of AGE proponents with their own figures and statistics, and that the whole thing will remain hopelessly politicized.

NevadaDad
The problem is that the statistician is starting from a false premise to begin with. This results in a case where we spend trillions to fix a problem that is not a problem.

The intent of the AGW peoople is not to fix a problem, it is to transfer money.

Vic
I think we are in agreement here. I'm not convinced AGW is a problem. I don't dispute that we have GW, but it is entirely likely in my mind that we are on the upward swing of a natural sinusoid or that something besides man-made carbon emissions are at the root of the warming.

However, I don't think the political issues are going to just vaporize. If the earth started plunging towards a new ice age tomorrow (remember how Newsweek breathlessly reported this back in the 1970s?), we would still have people blaming man and insisting that no matter what type of climate change occurs and no matter how inconsequential, it is man's fault and we must carry a "leave no trace" attitude into the stratosphere, not just next weekend's hike into the backcountry.

So I have resigned myself that the AGW crowd is not going to just concede, go home, and find something else to be mad and passionate about.

And if that's the case, I'd just as soon have guys like Lomborg to breathe a bit of cost/benefit reality into the equation.

Real Numbers
What this gentleman has done is use the numbers out there and apply a cost to them. That is an essential bit of reality that has been missing from much of the global warming discussion. Too much of it is emotional, and both sides are guilty of this.

Too many of us tend to dismiss or accept statistics just based on who they come from and what side they support.

Worse, many don't understand statistics. In these discussions, I so often read about statistics being lies. While it is certainly possible to make up statistics, that does not make all statistics lies. Unfortunately, it is easier to dismiss statistics than to study them, learn where they came from, and decide what they mean. Lomborg has done this.

From this interview it seems he actually leans toward the global warming crowd. It really surprises me that so many in that crowd hate him.

Waski
If you read his book "The Skeptical Environmentalist" it would not surprise you. He takes all of their so-called Sacred Cows and subjects them to reality. Has the elimination of DDT helped or hurt? Are we in danger of losing the world's forests? And many others. Global warming was just one of many topics he addressed in the book.

The hate doesn't surprise me. He's viewed as a turncoat because he allowed the data to speak rather than pledging allegiance to an ideology that can't be supported by the data. And for that he is hated.

He is, in a nutshell, a heretic to many on the left. He makes no bones about being left-of-center in his politics, but I do admire his courage on this issue. Although he's sold a lot of books he is anathema to many on the left, particularly the big money environmental groups like Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. That must be very disappointing...to speak openly as a scientist, not an ideolog, and to be castigated like he has been.

I consider his voice to be a breath of fresh air. Yeah, it would be nice if we weren't talking about spending money about something that probably isn't even on the top 10 in terms of world problems, but since we may have no choice, we need more voices like his to help moderate the hysteria.

Lefty control
Are you the same Vic from Christians and Islam?

GW'ers like Gore want to be able to pass more taxes on energy, tell you when you can fly on your vacation, tell you if you can purchase a new car, and otherwise run your lives.

That's what the left does. It failed in the USSR, is no longer the primary ec. model in China, died in Eastern Europe, and is barely breathing in Cuba, but leftist control imperatives are alive and well in radical profs., lib. blogs, and the so-called environmental movement, many of whom would croak if they really had to spend a week in the wilderness without Starbucks and cell phones.

The planet has been warming since the last ice age 10,000 years ago. It has been warmer and colder. It's alive, as the lefties keep trying to claim about the Const. The problem is the left really lacks imagination. It wants to return and preserve the US as it was in 1850, before very many of those rotten white Eur. settlers got across the MI. What they don't know is most of its life the North Am. Hemisphere has been a desert (and the West would be today without excessive water management). They seem to forget the Anasazi exp.'d a 300-yr. drought in the SW and died out or ran off.

Nothing remains but change.

renny
I am the same Vic who has been posting on TH for about a year now. There can be only one....Vic.

Another post
You can read me on Consevative Battleline, use Google for CB and Renny.

Unlikely ally
Bjorn Lomborg has every reason to buy into the environmental scaremongering. He is a left-wing vegetarian homosexual. He is certainly not the poster-child for right-wing "deniers".

Yet despite intense pressure to cave-in to the "consensus" on GW, he sticks to what the data tells him. I think we need to look to statisticians and other scientists from outside the "environmental sciences", because the people who choose the "environmental sciences" are usually biased in favor of doomsday before they even take their first class.

Warming Schmarming
There are certain questions that scientists are more qualified to answer than laymen. I don't believe that the question of AGW is one of them.

If you were in a jury and a lot of evidence was presented in a trial and you, as a juror were asked to make a JUDGEMENT based on the evidence you'd been presented with, would 11 jurors bow to the opinion of the one juror who happened to be a scientist? I don't think so.
That's what AGW is. There are too many variables- too many unknowns in this question for ANYBODY to draw a definitive conclusion. It's a question of judgement- more a matter of OPINION than a question of hard science.
Maybe it's happening (I doubt it). Maybe it's not. But NOBODY, not even a SCIENTIST, can state with certainty that it is. And when I hear so many people claim to have that certainty I become very suspicious of their motives.

The real driving force behind the AGW proponents is a pathological desire to tell ME what I can and cannot do and to steal my money in the form of taxes and fees and use it to line their own pockets and the pockets of a bunch of lazy-a**, greedy, corrupt bureaucrats.

If you assume an untruth
there's no telling where you might end up.

As C.S. Lewis pointed out, we did not stop burning witches because we decided burning witches was wrong. We stopped burning witches because we decided there were no witches.

Shouldn't we require proof of a major premise before we start basing our lives on that major premise?

The politics of science
Richard Lindzen is a professor of atmospheric science at MIT, and one of the climatologists who asked that their names be removed from the IPCC report. He spells out his views in this article:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008597

In a column awhile back, Thomas Sowell referred to "The Great Global Warming Swindle", a documentary produced by the BBC which will be aired in this country about the same time the next ice age overtakes hell. If you have a spare hour and twenty minutes, it can be accessed at
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3028847519933351566. (Or just google it.)

I'm deeply uneasy about the extent to which scientific studies in general are being skewed by the agendas of the entities funding those studies. The researcher is essentially beholden to the funders, in a relationship that parallels that of an artist working on commission with his prospective buyer.

The science of climatology is in its relative infancy. It's extremely complex, and there's much that simply isn't known. The politicization of the field only ensures that it remains unknown--which is no doubt how the proponents of man-made global warming prefer it.

I have to admire Lomborg for keeping an open mind despite intense pressure from his peers to close it—and to close his mouth while he’s at it.

Sorry Bill
But Vic's got your number in the very first post on the thread.

Steigerwald writes:

"I think it’s incontrovertible that it’s happening and that it’s at least partially caused by man."

and

"...I’m a social scientist and I’m a statistician and what I look at is “What are the social impacts of many of these things?” I simply take as a starting point what the U.N. climate panel tells us."

Come back and talk to me when you have at least a working knowledge of the physics and chemistry that form the basis of AGW theory.

This guy is AlGore Lite.




A useful position to take
It seems to me that the science is so complicated that it is better (smarter) not to be too dogmatic either way. But if we are to be agnostic, why not look at the trade-offs, like a good economist - or a statistician?

This would actually also be a smarter political position for conservatives to take, as it avoids the pervasive opinion that conservatives are anti-scientific ostriches.

Instead, you take the "consensus" at its word and think it through. And as the sciece continues to come through, as it will, we may be left flat-footed but not entirely without policies.

Look at Bush's position on Kyoto. It probably made a lot of sense in terms of macro-economic policy, but the administration did a lousy job of selling it, so they looked like a bunch of rubes ignoring the sage Europeans and Goreans.

Too little time
Too bad I won't still be around to read the news articles on how wrong the global warming alarmists turned out to have been, unless we get a couple of socko winters soon, which I wouldn't want to wish on anybody.

But before the alarmists back off, I expect my taxes to rise to fund stupid actions to make the Sun cool it. But then again, we've spent money just as foolishly, if not so lavishly, before and will, way into the bye and bye. But so what? As long as we keep getting richer, we can afford such foolishness, and fools.

Thomas Jefferson Climate Change
In his book, "Notes on Virginia", Jefferson mentions that in his present day, temperatures were notably warmer than they had been in the past. Must have been those mechanical clocks or butter churns that did it.

Reason at last!
Though I don't completely agree with his premise, his approach to the "problem" is much more reasonable than the alarmists like Gore and his henchmen. "Hysteria for funding" and the "guilt" angle is driving "warmists" who have now curiously metamorphisized into "climate change" butterflies flitting around trying to save the world.

Mr. Lomborg did touch on a concept that needs to be discussed when he speaks about the number of people dying from cold being higher than those who will die from heat. In relation to that concept--and inherent in any discussion of Man's "control" of the environment as if he were a "creator" of the natural forces on this or any other planet--is once we gain supreme control of all the weather, the disease, the starvation, et al., then who will make the fateful decisions of who and what classes of people will be allowed to live in this perfect environment since overpopulation of this orb we live on will certainly take its toll whether it be naturally--does Nature still have a roll with her wise "Survival of the Fittest" routine?--or by decree with the wise pronouncements of omniscent politicians whipping us into irrelevant frenzies?

After 5000 years of recorded history and civilizations rising and falling on the whims of the moment, it doesn't seem we ever learn from history. We've progressed from caves and Mother Nature still has the final say no matter how much we think we know. Unless a brilliant leader tells us differently or so we've all been hearing . . .

Benefits
Global warming, if it is happening, will bring greater benefits than harm. Let's celebrate it!

PeterE
And it surprises you that the Bush administration did a poor job selling one of their decisions...?

That's the pattern over and over. Make a decision. Do a poor job explaining it, or maybe, don't really explain it at all. Ignore the fact when you put it out there for public consumption that the MSM and Dems will demagogue it to death. Let the hyenas and jackals rip you to pieces in the press and on TV. Then ignore them and let them continue to set the tone and seize the advantage because you want to stay above the fray.
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