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Tuesday, May 06, 2008
Andrew Tallman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is Capital Punishment Loving?
by Andrew Tallman
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Previously, we saw that neither forgiveness nor mercy are compelling reasons to abandon the biblical practice of capital punishment. Now, let’s continue with the religious objections.

Religious Objection: Execution is incompatible with love.

God loves all people, and we are told to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). If we are to love all people, this probably means not killing them.

But there’s an obvious problem here. God, who loves all men, has killed many of them both directly Himself and indirectly through His agents. He killed Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5). He killed Uzzah the priest for mishandling the Ark of the Covenant (2 Samuel 6:3-11). His servant David famously killed Goliath for taunting God’s army (1 Samuel 17). And He seemed quite pleased for Elijah to slaughter the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18:17-40). So, here’s the quandary. Either God doesn’t actually love everyone or else it can be a loving thing to kill someone. Either option moves execution off the list of things prohibited because we are supposed to imitate God’s love. The best solution is both simple and counterintuitive.

Is it possible to love someone and execute that person? My emphatic answer is, “Yes.” Loving someone means wanting what is best for that person. Though I obviously admit that many people advocate execution because of hatred for the criminal, it is also possible to advocate it out of love for him. Loving a murderer means honoring him as a moral agent with accountability for his actions and also allowing him to pay for them with the only payment that is proper. Failing to execute him denies him this opportunity to atone for what he has done. Loving the murderer also means preventing him from further defacing the image of God embodied in himself. Failing to execute him only enables his ability to continue his own self-destruction.

Religious Objection: Only God may decide who lives and dies.

God controls life and death. Since only God can create life, only God has the prerogative to terminate life. When we execute murderers, so the argument goes, we are playing God and usurping powers reserved only to Him.

One illustration will suffice. If a child tells the babysitter that she can’t make him go to bed at 9:30 because she’s not his mother, is he correct? No, because the babysitter has had bedtime authority delegated to her by the parent, within whose natural authority such power resides. If the babysitter walks in off the street and tries to put a child to bed, she is usurping parental authority. If she enforces the will of the parents in absentia, she is honoring that same authority. The issuance of instructions makes all the difference between improperly playing parent and properly discharging duties entrusted by the parents.

How do we know that God controls life and death? The Bible. How do we know that God assigns the authority to execute people to earthly governments? The Bible. Whatever certainty we have about the one equally enjoins us to perform the other. Executing murderers is not playing God. It is obeying Him.

Religious Objection: Execution prevents the possibility of repentance and being forgiven by God.

As Christians, our primary objective in life is to facilitate the reconciliation of sinners to God through repentance and accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins. When we allow our government to execute people, we are deliberately cutting off all chance for those most desperately in need of salvation to receive it. This, according to the objection, is the only thing worse than the homicide itself.

Precisely because I so strongly agree with the spirit of this objection, I am happy to report that it actually endorses just the sort of capital punishment process we currently have in place. Nothing pricks the conscience to consider matters of eternity like the impending danger of death. Foxholes, sinking boats, life-threatening illnesses and death row all serve as excellent motivators to ponder our status with God and do whatever we can to insure the right result.

Knowing you will die on Tuesday at 8:00 a.m. does far more in this way than the general knowledge that you will die at some completely unknowable moment in your incarcerated future. If we really want people to come to Jesus, the best way to raise that likelihood is by telling them when it will happen. Furthermore, people on death row regularly receive visits from the clergy, who are far more motivated to evangelize them than they are the ordinary inmate. Thus, both the murderer himself and those around him are uniquely motivated by capital punishment to secure his salvation. Far from preventing repentance, execution increases the likelihood of it.

Another issue connected to this objection is the idea that people who have genuinely been converted should not suffer execution. Aside from the insoluble problem of distinguishing genuine conversions from forgeries, which would be enough to respond here, there is the fact that anyone who had truly repented for his sins would also be the last one to claim that he deserved to live. If he has embraced the gravity of his corruption necessitating the substitutionary atonement of Christ, he is not going to turn around and seek clemency from the state. More likely, he will embrace the attitude of the thief on the cross, who acknowledged the justice of his own condition during crucifixion beside his Lord (cf. Luke 23:32-43). And, tellingly, the reward for his repentance and faith was the gift of eternal salvation with no reprieve whatsoever for the earthly punishment of temporal death.

In the next column, we’ll look at the three commonly used biblical counter-examples to capital punishment: Cain, King David, and the woman caught in adultery.

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About The Author

Andrew Tallman is host of The Andrew Tallman Show on AM 1360 KPXQ from 5-7PM weekdays in Phoenix, AZ.

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45 caliber
You are correct....too bad it will fall on deaf ears.

Biblical Translations
There is one quote I have heard many times from the Bible: "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately, this is a mis-translation. It actually says, "Thou shall not murder." There is a difference.

When you fight a war to defend your country, when you fight a mugger intend on killing you and your family, when you execute a person who deserves it - you are NOT committing murder even though you may kill. God does not condemn killing for there were plenty of cases of it in the Bible. He does condemn murder. So remember the translation problem - and the correct translation.

eastlake joe
eastlake joe writes:
Talentscout
The lord is not worried about your earthly body, he is trying to save your soul. As far as the argument that it stops them from obtaining forgivness, that doesn't hold water as all you have to do is ask and you shall recieve
-------
ts:
I do not have any idea what you are talking about.
Nor the need to say what the Lord (not lord) is "worried" about, as He is worried about nothing.

So what in the world are you talking about?

Insightingtruth
I look at this subject like this. The Supreme court had before it a question of lethal injection being inhumane and painfull especially to overweight people. Well, how humane was Jeffry Dalmer towards his victims? How humane was the dirt bag that murdered the little girl found floating in a smallsuitcase in Texas? That little girl didn't even know why the scumbag married to her mother wanted her dead. I'm sorry, you want me to feel sorry for scum like that!? To me they are no different than a rabid dog, a 35 cent bullet will do just fine!

Talentscout
The lord is not worried about your earthly body, he is trying to save your soul. As far as the argument that it stops them from obtaining forgivness, that doesn't hold water as all you have to do is ask and you shall recieve. Now, the difference between this and aborting unborn babiesis that the unborn have commited no sin as it was said to breath is to sin. These poor unborn BABIES havn't breathed yet. To kill them is to break a moral as well as the lords laws.

talent scout
Not particularly, no. This is merely a distraction from the boredom of waiting.

Just curious to know whether or not you were aware that you didn't address what was said in the least.

No need to respond; you've more than answer the question.

Don't wait, shoot them


There are two way that the government can take the life of a person. (I was about to say “citizen” but there are thousands of non-citizens who should be shot.)

One is the split decision by a policeman with his gun in his hand, the other takes millions of dollars and dozens of years, caused by the criminal legal system. I mean the system and the lawyers involved are the criminals.

I would much rather pay for a bullet, than for hospital bills for the policeman. The criminal should not be allowed medical help of any kind.

When there is a car chase, I want the driver dead by the time the wheels stop rolling. If someone attacks the police, shoot them.

If you saw the police problem on TV today, the criminals should have been shot. If the policeman gets injured while trying to subdue a criminal, he suffers pain, we suffer taxes to pay for his problem.

If he attacks the police, if he does not correctly respond to the police orders to lay down, or what ever, shoot him.

Forget the three crime nonsense, once is enough.


When Jesus called the Pharisees
Hypocrites
He did so cause they were hypocrites.
Trying to teach the Law, they abused.
And Jesus told them what they did not want to hear, and it offended them.
And caused them to conspire to have Him sentenced to death.
You are like the Pharisees, who do not know what you are talking about and mishandling the Word of God.
You are headed for trouble, unless you wake up, but that is up to you.
----------


religiouslib writes: 1:44 PM
right back at you
God gave you no authority over me to pass your judgments on me to begin with, and I find it offensive simply because I am not what you want
to judge me to be, hypocrite.
---------
Because Jesus was attacked for Teaching the Word of God in Truth, he was called many names by the hypocrites.

The accusations fell off like water off a duck's back cause they were not Truth, they were false accusations, which you are full of.


The Lord Himself said NOT to do what you do here at me or others.

God's Laws will not be Amended by men
Mal 3:6 -
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Christian America recognized God's Laws in Nature, and passed Legislated Law by Due Process of Law in every State, and the Federal Level by Congress.

His Laws were incorporated into our Justice System, and America was Blessed of God for obeying His Voice.
Righteousness Established the Nation all the while sin and crime existed in every place then as it does now.

The CONCEPTS of America is FOUNDED in Law and Rights, all based in Judeo/Christian Faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Moses.
The God of King David
The God of the Prophet Isaiah.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whom the Founders of America Prayed Public to, daily, until the King of England had been disposed of.

Then Established Prayer before every Congress began.
Seeking His Wisdom and Guidance to lead them into UNITY which they listened for how to word.
Finding the perfect words and wrote them down as the Founding Document of the United States of America.

The US Constitution.
Which is ignored today by a Back Slidden group of men in high positions of power.
Who do not seek God as the Founders did, but seek to please men, even the ungodly men of this day, who despise the God who Guided the Founders into the Ideas that gave the world America.

The Church also have backslidden from God, and bowed their knees to Baal and evey idol men can dream up today to love and worship in devotion of their life to the promise of fame or fortune.
They will have their reward of fame, or fortune, and God WILL have His Justice.

Mark it down






talent scout:
I'm sorry, but I have to go. I don't even have time to read your last post. I will get back to this later or you may copy and send your post to insightingtruth@gmail.com
Talk later,

The Concept of Law and Lawgiver, same

If God makes a Law, He does it with the Very same Concept men make Law.

God has made His Judgments and they are found in Nature itself, unimpeachable Laws, pointed out in the Declaration of Independence.


IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary ....
to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,...




InsightingTruth writes: 2:06 PM
talent scout
Like all discussions, this one does not take place in a vacuum. To understand one another we must first agree on some parameters. Then we must define our terms so we both understand what we are talking about.

1. We are talking about man's law. I believe God's law is a different subject altogether. Can we limit our discussion to man's law?
-------
ts:
The concept is exactly the same.
There are God given Laws, and there are men given laws.
But the concept of making a law is exactly the same.

-------
InsightingTruth writes:

2. Can we agree that legislation does not equal law?
----------
ts:
No
This is part of the Due Process for all Nations, unless they are ruled by a King, who is the lawgiver.
Or under such governments as the Nazi's, the Communists and the Fascists.
Who just tell everyone what the law is without and Due Process as is the Method for Law making in the United States.

You have missed the concept, that regardless who makes a law, wether it be God or men, the concept is exactly the same.

God is the TRUE Law Giver, even if men Ignore His Laws.
They will STILL BE JUDGED BY GOD'S LAWS ANYWAY.
As His Laws cannot be Amended or Abolished.

Isa 51:6 -
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished


Identification
Society used to identify with the victim of murder. They put themselves in the place of the innocent who lost their life to another human being. Society empathized with the ultimate insult, the taking of life before the appointed time. They were able to feel the pain and the sorrow of the survivors. Etc.Something has happened. Society no longer feels the same way. There is this thought that the killer must be understood. "Why did he do it?" What were his parents like?" "Was he bullied at school?" The killer has become a thing of fascination, a romantic figure worthy of much concern. This is unnatural. This is upside down. This is hideous. Is there any connection between this softening of feelings toward murderers and our casual attitude and leniency toward abortions? No brainer.

All over the world
A Nation is known by its Laws.

Ge 7:1
And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Noah did not live under any Justice System.
Yet he done what was right anyway, and God Himself declared a righteous man.

There was not even 10 men left on this earth that done right in the sight of God.

Just 4 men and 4 women.

This same situation developed in the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.


If there had been just 5 Righteous men in both Cities, God would NOT have sent His Judgments on those Cities, bringing DEATH.


Genesis 18:
6 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29:...
30:...
31:..
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place

What God has called Sin, men call Crime.
And His Judgments NEVER change on sin.
It is still Condemned and already Judged.

Some sins are sins UNTO Death.


gnosticism
has been a problem for Christians and mankind in general the first century. It is man's weakness to have the need to possess a special knowledge that only the privileged few possess. This constitutes a de facto, special and privileged club. deathstar and others imagine that they have discovered Christianity's dirty little secret, i.e., that many people have over the years perverted the teachings of Christ to do some bad things. This is their talisman to which they can justify their worldview that there are no absolute laws. The reason that they oppose capital punishment is twofold: Christians, with justification argue for it and they virulently anti-Christian and it(capital punishment) represents a relic of the status quo that they are determined to destroy. If the day comes when this nation has been thoroughly communized and atheized, there will be no qualms about capital punishment, unrestricted abortion, rampant euthanasia for many different classes of people, whoever happens to be the unfavored class of the day, literally. I imagine that then many liberals will long for the days of the Christian.

talent scout
Like all discussions, this one does not take place in a vacuum. To understand one another we must first agree on some parameters. Then we must define our terms so we both understand what we are talking about.

1. We are talking about man's law. I believe God's law is a different subject altogether. Can we limit our discussion to man's law?

2. Can we agree that legislation does not equal law?

right back at you
God gave you no authority over me to pass your judgments on me to begin with, and I find it offensive simply because I am not what you want to judge me to be, hypocrite.
The Lord Himself said NOT to do what you do here at me or others.


U and I, both wrong, God is Right
InsightingTruth writes:

I was an adamant proponent of the death penalty for decades. I was wrong.
--------
ts:
Well the fact of the matter is, you are still wrong, as only God and His Word is Right.
And His Judgments will not change cause you do.

-----------

InsightingTruth writes:
It was the revelations provided by DNA testing that caused me to rethink my position. There were a number of people sitting on death row that were eventually exonerated of the crimes for which they had been condemned, through the use of this new evidence. I know the number was small when compared to the total death row population, but it was enough.
-------
ts:
I do sincerely understand your point, and I agree with it basically, but none of this changes God and His Law.
If we had honest men in the Justice System, seeking truth, and not conviction, or accolades of men cause they are so "smart" then the problems you mention from men would not send innocent men to death.

This problem is not the Law, its the same as its has ever been, the evil of men in high places of power.

----------
InsightingTruth writes:
I support the immediate imposition of the death penalty for violent criminals through the judicious application of lethal self-defence. I abhor criminal behavior, be it misdemeanor or felony, and believe in swift and certain apprehension and prosecution. I do not believe the state can be trusted with the power of life and death over its citizens.
---------
ts:
Its the Justice System that is the problem, not the Law itself.

I respect you
InsightingTruth writes: 12:50 PM
talent scout
You and I agree on many things. Most of your posts indicate a keen mind and expansive knowledge. However, you are wrong on this issue.

There is no misunderstanding on my part. I understand the goals of the criminal justice. I also understand the perverse incentives that exist within our political system. The system is full of Nifong's. Politically ambitious men that will suppress evidence, lie, manufacture evidence, and commit any number of immoral and illegal acts to advance their own careers.

--------

I was just making the point that even if there are evil men in the Justice System, and crime sits to Judge Criminals, that still does not make the Laws of God to none effect, as being Righteous.

The Law itself is GOOD.
Evil men ABUSE THE LAW.
As seen in the Trial of Jesus Christ Himself.
Yet and even so, the Lord SUBMITTED Himself to the Law.
Cause the Law is not the problem, the problem is evil men like Nifong.
But look at what the law has given him.
God's Justice may seem to linger, but it will come in God's own time, and it will always bring Justice.

The Law is GOOD
Its men who are evil


Can God be defined with one scripture?
religious lib thinks He can, and she is the one who can do that, as she sums God up with the Scripture God is Love.

Yes He is, but because He loves men, He has given His Laws to keep them FROM DEATH, and Hell.

But if anyone like religiouslib, thinks sin will not send a person to HELL because God is Love, they are nutty than a fruit cake.


Because God is Love, He has GIVEN MANKIND LAWS, to teach mankind what sin is.
Without this Law, no man would know what is SIN and WHAT IS NOT SIN.

The Law was given cause God LOVES men, and the Law is GOOD.
The LAW is not EVIL
Men are EVIL, and the Law is there to CORRECT THE EVIL OF MEN.
Because God LOVES men.
Pauls explains this:

Ga 3:24 -
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Now because I want to do whats RIGHT in the EYES of God, I do not need any Law to keep me from killing another man.
I do not need any law to keep me faithful to my wife.
I do not need any law to keep me from stealing.
I do not need a law to make he HONOR my mother and father.
I do not need a law to keep me from worhiping idols, or men.
I worship Jesus Christ as God, and He loves me for my Faith in him, not needing a Law to do RIGHT IN HIS EYES.


talent scout
You and I agree on many things. Most of your posts indicate a keen mind and expansive knowledge. However, you are wrong on this issue.

There is no misunderstanding on my part. I understand the goals of the criminal justice. I also understand the perverse incentives that exist within our political system. The system is full of Nifong's. Politically ambitious men that will suppress evidence, lie, manufacture evidence, and commit any number of immoral and illegal acts to advance their own careers.

I was an adamant proponent of the death penalty for decades. I was wrong.

It was the revelations provided by DNA testing that caused me to rethink my position. There were a number of people sitting on death row that were eventually exonerated of the crimes for which they had been condemned, through the use of this new evidence. I know the number was small when compared to the total death row population, but it was enough.

I support the immediate imposition of the death penalty for violent criminals through the judicious application of lethal self-defence. I abhor criminal behavior, be it misdemeanor or felony, and believe in swift and certain apprehension and prosecution. I do not believe the state can be trusted with the power of life and death over its citizens.

i DO NOT MIND
religiouslib writes: 12:23 PM
talent scout
you asked a while ago not to respond to you and i have been diligent in doing so but i am going to break my rule just this once.
---------
ts:
Look, when you come to pass your judgments on me, I will never accept that, and that is what I told you to just keep to yourself, as that is what hypocrites DO.

God gave you no authority over me to pass your judgments on me to begin with, and I find it offensive simply because I am not what you want to judge me to be, hypocrite.
The Lord Himself said NOT to do what you do here at me or others.

I am talking about the subject and not here to fight with you over who or what I am, cause I do not care what your puny judgments on me are.
And I know you are extremely ignorant of the Scriptures, as you twist them to your own understanding, and is a sin against God.
And you do not even know it, you are the problem, not the Bible or the Morals of God found in Nature itself that brings the Death Penalty

Now I cannot stop you from posting your personal judgments of me for believing in the Righteousness of God over your righteousness, which is wickedness cause you think you can condemn God Himself for the Death Penalty, and are mad to do so.

You really are not more righteous than God, even if you believe sincerely, you are.
You are just sincerely deceived

Why did God give the Law?
Unless a person comes to understand this much, he will never understand the scriptures, or the Justice System, and why we have it, as well as ALL Nations of the world.

Paul explains this question

Romans 4:
9 faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
---------

Abraham never lived under a Justice System, he had NO Law he was required to observe, in any Ceremonial or Conscientious observance.
Yet he got very close to God.
Through his Faith in God, not any ceremonial observance of a Justice System or what he placed in his mouth.

Abraham simply did not commit theft, murder and adultery.
So why would he need some Law to force him not to do what he never done to begin with?
He DID NOT need any Law to DO RIGHT.

He did Right cause that is what He WANTED TO DO FROM HIS HEART.

So God never placed ANY LAW ON ABRAHAM.
But He did on the Israelis simply because they were not like Abraham and did commit murder, rape, robbery, idol worship and a host of other sins.

But until the Law was Given, there was NO TRANSGRESSION for murder, rape or robbery.

Without a Law, there is NO TRANGRESSION.

Romans 4:15
"for where no law is, there is no transgression."

It was sin against God to commit adultery, murder, rape and robbery,worship devils, idols, but it came naturally and IGNORANTLY to the nature of men who loved these sins and unlearned.

There was NO JUSTICE SYSTEM, until God got tired of the crimes the Israelis were committing and never getting any correction.

God gave Moses the Law to correct the sins of men WITH A JUDGMENT AGAINST THEIR CRIMES.
This is the purpose of the Law.

Paul explains:
Ga 3:19 -
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,........

How many of you out there think we do not need a Justice System?
A Police Force?

Well that is WHY GOD GAVE MOSES THE LAW.






talent scout
you asked a while ago not to respond to you and i have been diligent in doing so but i am going to break my rule just this once.

i went with my son to visit the university he is going to attend in the fall. on the steps of the student union was a young man preaching.
now he was very loud and was preaching doom and gloom and quoting many of the scriptures that you do on a consistent basis.

talent scout, people were avoiding him and running from him because they were literally scared of his manner.

i stood and watched for 15 minutes and not one person approached him and most made rude comments about him.

you are doing the same thing.
you drive people away from you with your attitude and constant negative comments towards anyone who even slightly disagrees with you.

sometimes you come off as a rev. phelps type.

you may know your bible but you don't know how to be a Christian.

Christians don't insult and demean others.
they attempt to talk to others in a loving and teaching way.

you scream and yell and tell them they are going to hell.

well that may be your opinion but that approach tends to drive people away.

i thought Jesus calls us to witness for him and to bring people to him.

if you are driving people away from Gods message you are doing something wrong in my opinion.

now i am sure you will respond with

"they have to understand their eternal soul is at stake and it is my obligation to tell them."

and then you will throw out 10 verses of scripture to prove your point.

there is much more to being a witness for Christ then yelling,insulting, quoting scripture and condemning those who disagree with you.

is that how you were saved by someone yelling at you and insulting you and telling you must be saved or you will go to hell?

even if it is that is not the way most people come to Christ.

God is love.


And you brought it here
stedes writes: 10:51 AM
Twisted Logic..
-----
ts:
You are the very man who is bringing it.

----------
stedes writes:
More Christian Justification for killing. I love you that is why I am going to kill you. What happened to "Thou Shalt not kill"?
--------
ts:
The Laws of Criminal Justice did not come from Christianity, first off.
Capital Punishment is found all over the world in non Christian Nations cause its Natural Law, found in Nature.
But your ignorance comes from you.

--------
stedes writes:
Amazing

I find this logic as scary as the Muslims using God to justify 9/11.

-----------
Nations of the world that have Capital Punishment and just recently changed.
Hardly a Christian "thing" doobie doo
Because God is rejected by fools, there is no longer a Justice System that is about Justice.


Death Penalty Outlawed (year)

* Albania (2000)
* Andorra (1990)
* Angola (1992)
* Armenia (2003)
* Australia (1984)
* Austria (1950)
* Azerbaijan (1998)
* Belgium (1996)
* Bermuda (1999)
* Bhutan (2004)
* Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
* Bulgaria (1998)
* Cambodia (1989)
* Canada (1976)
* Cape Verde (1981)
* Colombia (1910)
* Costa Rica (1877)
* Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
* Croatia (1990)
* Cyprus (1983)
* Czech Republic (1990)
* Denmark (1933)
* Djibouti (1995)
* Dominican Republic (1966)
* East Timor (1999)
* Ecuador (1906)
* Estonia (1998)
* Finland (1949)
* France (1981)
* Georgia (1997)
* Germany (1949)
* Greece (1993)
* Guinea-Bissau (1993)
* Haiti (1987)
* Honduras (1956)
* Hungary (1990)
* Iceland (1928)
* Ireland (1990)
* Italy (1947)
* Kazakhstan (2007)
* Kiribati (1979)
* Liberia (2005)
* Liechtenstein (1987)
* Lithuania (1998)
* Luxembourg (1979)
* Macedonia (1991)
* Malta (1971)



You mis-understand
InsightingTruth writes: 8:58 AM
Capital punishment...
...is too much power to put in the hands of government. Prosecutors like Mike Nifong are the ultimate argument against capital punishment; the rest is just so much sophistry.
--------
The Justice System
The death penalty is not under any Prosecuters power.
Not a single solitary one of them have any power to put anyone to death.

The Law is the power itself, and its due process is what decides life and death.
Not men like Nifong.

Its the Law that puts people in Prison too, not men like Nifong
The Death Penalty is Just and Moral

Twisted Logic..
More Christian Justification for killing. I love you that is why I am going to kill you. What happened to "Thou Shalt not kill"?

Amazing

I find this logic as scary as the Muslims using God to justify 9/11.






Capital punishment...
...is too much power to put in the hands of government. Prosecutors like Mike Nifong are the ultimate argument against capital punishment; the rest is just so much sophistry.

scotbushee writes:

I'd be highly interested in seeing what more you have to say on this TS, as well as others.

Like Religiouslib said, "like most Christians i wrestle with the ideas that are presented here."

I do too. One of my good friends is a theonomist, and I go to a Mennonite church. Religiouslib (and others) I think you might be interested in reading about the Mennonite confession of faith. http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/

That said, I'm getting tired.

Maybe the best way to end this is to just simply say a prayer for each other?

----------
Have sweet dreams my friend
Its been interesting to discuss this issue.
It made me have to dig up the information I knew of that relates to the death penalty.

Just remember this, the Lord is no unrighteous and He has never been so, and His Laws will Never change.
Transgressors with be Judged of God, with the very same Law He gave Moses.
One escape, through the Salvation of Jesus Christ.
For all have sinned and come short, but not all men are killers.

And killers have been judged worthy of death

Have a good night
scottbushee writes: 12:55 AM
Sorry
Talent Scout,

This has been an interesting discussion. It's getting late though, and I work early tomorrow.

Here is a link to an interesting debate on this subject that you might like:

http://forerunner.com/theonomy/theonomy.htm
--------
ts:
I will pass
I done got the answers from the Lord
---------
scottbushee writes:
Short answer is this: The law is still in effect, for those who want to follow it. Those who attempt to follow it won't be saved. You can try, but it leads away from salvation.

Bunch of stuff from Romans and Galations (mostly) point to this.

We are under a different covenant, and have a different law, the law of Christ's liberty. To get it we have to grant it to others.
-------
ts:
No man is in the Grace of God until he repents and believes the Gospel.
You are trying to take the childrens bread and cast it to the dogs.
The New Testament is written to BELIEVERS.
And where the Law is in relation to the Grace of God for all who have received the Grace of God.

Sinners will never know the Grace of God until they come to Him as He has said.
And you cannot give what does not belong to you to them.
God controls this, and will not give it to all men unless they hear and obey His Voice.
REPENT of your sins and Believe the Gospel.
Men like you take the Pearls, the Bread of God and hand it to pigs and dogs.
You are as rebuked for that as the ones Jesus rebuked for thinking as you do.
No man is ever going to get anything from God but damnation unless he comes as the Lord said to come.
And you are not big enough to give what belongs to God to any man.
Its not yours to give.








What God hath cleansed
Acts 11:
5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.


No where will any man find God saying he changed the Law of Moses about Murderers.
Anymore than you will find He now accepts false idols and adultery

Ok
scottbushee writes: 12:46 AM
Which laws
are statutes, and which ones apply today?

"2. A decree or edict, as of a ruler."

Lev 11:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
Lev 11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Per 11:1 and 11:2, these are a decree, as of a ruler (God).
---------
ts:
Did you not notice God gave no Judgment for eating an unclean animal?
He said they were unclean is all.

Then you put up the very Scripture God said HE Cleansed all this, and told Peter to slay and eat.
And to not call it unclean what God had cleaned.

Think man

Sorry
Talent Scout,

This has been an interesting discussion. It's getting late though, and I work early tomorrow.

Here is a link to an interesting debate on this subject that you might like:

http://forerunner.com/theonomy/theonomy.htm

Short answer is this: The law is still in effect, for those who want to follow it. Those who attempt to follow it won't be saved. You can try, but it leads away from salvation.

Bunch of stuff from Romans and Galations (mostly) point to this.

We are under a different covenant, and have a different law, the law of Christ's liberty. To get it we have to grant it to others.

I'd be highly interested in seeing what more you have to say on this TS, as well as others.

Like Religiouslib said, "like most Christians i wrestle with the ideas that are presented here."

I do too. One of my good friends is a theonomist, and I go to a Mennonite church. Religiouslib (and others) I think you might be interested in reading about the Mennonite confession of faith. http://www.mennolink.org/doc/cof/

That said, I'm getting tired.

Maybe the best way to end this is to just simply say a prayer for each other?


Guilt of Conscience
Is not a transgression of the Law.
Murder is



scottbushee writes: 12:33 AM
Innocence
TS,

No, "The Law does not treat an innocent person as it treats a guilty one."

But we're all guilty.
----------
ts:
Yes, but Christians escape the guilt through belief in Jesus Christ.

Ro 8:1 -
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To them who are IN CHRIST, there is no guilt for sin.
Who walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit.
This is not about the Judgment for a capitol Crime as Murder.
Which the Law requires death.
Immediately if not sooner.




-------
scottbushee writes:


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

"Or do you think we should imprison all men innocent or not?
That would be equal treatment, just put everyone in prison for life if we put a murder in."

No, but there are no innocent men, so in God's justice we would all end up in hell. Except he loves us, and he sent his son to take our punishment for us. And his son told us over and over that one condition for us accpeting the reprieve is to give everyone else a repreive too. If you can't do that, then you lose your pardon. Again:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I'm pretty sure no one ever said this would be easy. Might go so far as saying it's like taking up a cross and following the one who was on it. We just have to love the one on it more than our own life, or the lives of our family and friends.

----------
ts:
You are confused
The Cross has provided the cost of Judgment on mankind as to his guilt of conscience.

The Cross does not destroy the Judgments of death on criminals for being Law Breakers.

If you insist they are the same, you will die a confused man.


Which laws
are statutes, and which ones apply today?

"2. A decree or edict, as of a ruler."

Lev 11:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
Lev 11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Per 11:1 and 11:2, these are a decree, as of a ruler (God).


TS wrote,
"But the fact is, he will still pay for his crime, forgiven or not.
Exactly as the Thief on the Cross did Jesus Forgave."

Exactly as you will pay for your sins on the judgement day?

Forgiveness is quite hollow if you say 'oh, I forgive you, but you still get punishment.' I'm not sure it would really matter if our faith in Jesus lead to the forgiveness of our sins then, because, under your theory, we still have to pay for our crime.

I must say, I like how you worded that, 'he will still pay for his crime.' Our sin creates debt toward God. Jesus pays our debt. I accept his payment on my behalf. Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.


scotbushee writes:
Do you also agree that the dietary laws are different?

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Jesus' coming altered Jewish life in every way, including law. He fulfilled much law. Why is it so hard to just read what he says throughout Matthew 5 and accept that he altered the law in this way too?
-------
ts:
Can you find any place in the Law of Moses one was to be stoned to death for eating a piece of bacon?

I never have.
These are known as statutes

stat·ute
n.

1. A law enacted by a legislature.
2. A decree or edict, as of a ruler.
3. An established law or rule

God never issued any Judgment on this but as unclean.

Then he instructed Peter, he cleansed it, read it again

This goes into some much deeper
Studies


scottbushee writes: 12:22 AM
Law
TS,

Certainly you would agree that at least the ceremonial law has changed, wouldn't you? Even hardcore theonomists agree on this.
---------
ts:
I will let Jesus Answer you:
Mt 5:17 -
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Do you think you can dismiss this?
Jesus Himself said plainly: "THINK NOT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW"

(emphasis mine)
You think you can dismiss this scot?

Mt 5:18 -
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

OR this?

Mt 23:23 -
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

JUDGMENT IS NOT TO BE OMITTED, no more than mercy.
God has NO FAVORITE SCRIPTURES.
You cannottake a single Scripture and use it as an ERASER TO ERASE ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE.








Innocence
TS,

No, "The Law does not treat an innocent person as it treats a guilty one."

But we're all guilty.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

"Or do you think we should imprison all men innocent or not?
That would be equal treatment, just put everyone in prison for life if we put a murder in."

No, but there are no innocent men, so in God's justice we would all end up in hell. Except he loves us, and he sent his son to take our punishment for us. And his son told us over and over that one condition for us accpeting the reprieve is to give everyone else a repreive too. If you can't do that, then you lose your pardon. Again:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I'm pretty sure no one ever said this would be easy. Might go so far as saying it's like taking up a cross and following the one who was on it. We just have to love the one on it more than our own life, or the lives of our family and friends.

scottbushee
thank you for your reasoned and scriptural responses.

like most Christians i wrestle with the ideas that are presented here.

through prayer, bible study, and the fellowship of other Christians one can usually sort out moral complexities.

the idea that i should have submitted to the holocaust, for example, because hitler was the state does not make any sense to me.

i would (or at least like to think i would) have exchanged my earthly life to send a message that what was occurring was immoral in the eyes of the Lord.

i don't understand those who, because they live in a democracy and are not threatened, tell me i must follow statist law when it is immoral.

God has no favorite scriptures
scotbushee writes:
I think Religouslibs point about the passion is that we are called to be Christlike. Why wouldn't this mean that we sacrafice our lives (take up our crosses) in order to forgive someone like the murderer, even if it meant losing it. Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
-------
ts:
Who has said he cannot be forgiven?
Not me.
He can be forgiven if he repents.
But the fact is, he will still pay for his crime, forgiven or not.
Exactly as the Thief on the Cross did Jesus Forgave.

--------
scotbushee writes:
He also told us:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
--------
ts:
True enough, and all Christians need to learn forgiveness and not hold grudges.
But I thought we were talking about Law.
Guess I was and you weren't.

---------
scotbushee writes:
Then there is the parable of the debtor forgiven who doesn't forgive others their tresspass against him (Matthew 18:23-35)
------
ts:
Yes
Many scriptures about Forgiveness.
Not as many as there are about Law though.
Its good you have learned the scriptures about Forgiveness, now you just need to learn the scriptures concerning the Law.



Law
TS,

Certainly you would agree that at least the ceremonial law has changed, wouldn't you? Even hardcore theonomists agree on this.

Do you also agree that the dietary laws are different?

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Jesus' coming altered Jewish life in every way, including law. He fulfilled much law. Why is it so hard to just read what he says throughout Matthew 5 and accept that he altered the law in this way too?

Well, its the Judgment already given
scottbushee writes: 12:01 AM
Forgiveness
Talent Scout wrote:

"The death penalty was pronounced on mankind when he learned good from evil, and chooses evil."
------------


scottbushee writes:
We all deserve death. I agree. Jesus put himself in the executioners path for our sakes.
--------
ts:
But Jesus did not overthrow the Law by submitting to the Law.
Nor did His Forgiveness stop the repented thief from dying by the Law, just as Jesus Himself did.
And one thing is certain, all flesh is going to die, one way or another.
Either by Law, Murder or natural cause.
Forgiveness does not overthrow the Laws of God, and every transgression will be rewarded, that is Bible Teaching.
------
scottbushee writes:
It's important to remember that we are all on equal ground in God's eyes. The crazed murderer you mentioned before, you, and me all deserve death. Jesus saved us, and he would save the murderer. After all, as bad as your murder was, he was no Saul of Tarsis.
------
ts:
The Law does not treat an innocent person as it treats a guilty one.
When you speak of Law, I figure you must be speaking about what the Law is designed for, the bring Judgment for the transgression of Law.
Therefore an innocent man does not deserve an equal sentence of the Law the Transgressor deserves.
Or do you think we should imprison all men innocent or not?
That would be equal treatment, just put everyone in prison for life if we put a murder in.
We are all equals to God.
That is what you are saying and is as dumb as it gets.




Response
TS:

"Pure ignorance
Jesus did not say one word against the Law, but spoke directly as to personal vengence, and taking the Law into ones own hands.
You and he are problems, and are teaching error."

Read Matthew 5. Jesus has multiple 'you have heard that it has been said,' after which directly follows a quote from the OT law, such as:
Matthew 5:21: You have heard that it was said to the people long ago 'Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.'"

Or Matthew 5:27: "You have heard that it was said, 'Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.'"

Then he says in Matthew 5:38, "You have heard that it was said, 'Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,' 'Lev 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again,' and/or 'Deu 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.'"

In each of these listed, Matthew 5:21, 5:28, and 5:38, Jesus specifically mentioned an OT law, and then changed it. He also did the same with divorce and oaths.







Forgiveness
Talent Scout wrote:

"The death penalty was pronounced on mankind when he learned good from evil, and chooses evil."

We all deserve death. I agree. Jesus put himself in the executioners path for our sakes.

It's important to remember that we are all on equal ground in God's eyes. The crazed murderer you mentioned before, you, and me all deserve death. Jesus saved us, and he would save the murderer. After all, as bad as your murder was, he was no Saul of Tarsis.

I think Religouslibs point about the passion is that we are called to be Christlike. Why wouldn't this mean that we sacrafice our lives (take up our crosses) in order to forgive someone like the murderer, even if it meant losing it. Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

He also told us:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Then there is the parable of the debtor forgiven who doesn't forgive others their tresspass against him (Matthew 18:23-35)




aACovenant created a different God?
scottbushee writes: 11:41 PM
Response to Talent Scout
Talent Scout said that the most foolish Christians "Are the ones who think the God of the Old Testament is a Different God in the New Testament."
--------

scottbushee writes:
No, just that different covenants have different rules for the people involved.
--------
What rules were changed?
I see an addition to understanding the Law, no change of the Law.
You really think you can dismiss the Law of God?
When Jesus Himself declared it would never Pass Away?
You are 100 percent wrong.
--------


TS earlier responded to religiouslib:
"This subject is about the Death Sentence.
It is not about the Innocence of Jesus Christ.
I do not think any man thinks Jesus was guilty of a crime, let alone the sentence of death.

God in His wisdom, knowing mankind and pre-determined the path to Glory, was right through the heart of the evil of mankind who will kill an innocent man."
-------
scottbushee writes:
Agreed, good point, now stay on topic yourself.
------
ts:
Take a hike sonny boy, I respond to what I decide to respond to, and you can do with it what you want.
I really do not care one way or another.

---------

Religiouslib pointed out a specific objection to the death penalty, namely Matthew 5:38-39,
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
---------
scottbushee writes:

... The law addressed is about this topic, and is specifically changed to not allow Christ's follows to partake in retribution.
-------
ts
Pure ignorance
Jesus did not say one word against the Law, but spoke directly as to personal vengence, and taking the Law into ones own hands.
You and he are problems, and are teaching error.

Seriously, you need to quit trying to teach something you are ignorant and unlearned about.

Great men of the past wrote about this
As the Question of Law, Government, Church and State was examined by great minds, and whose thoughts directed the Founding of America.

Such is this one, and the others already mentioned.

The evidence is overwhelming the death penalty is just.


ON THE DUTY OF MAN AND CITIZEN
ACCORDING TO THE NATURAL LAW (1682)

BY SAMUEL VON PUFENDORF

(excerpt)

CHAPTER XIII

On the Power of Life and Death



1. Power over the lives of the citizens belongs to the supreme civil

authority in two ways, indirectly and directly. The former is for the

defense of the state, the latter to check crimes.



2. For, since the violence of foreigners must often be repelled by violence,

or our rights must be obtained from them by force, the supreme authority

certainly may compel its citizens to carry this out, in which case there is

no intention that the citizens shall lose their lives, but they are merely

exposed to the danger of death. And that in such dangers the citizens may be

able to conduct themselves with energy and skill, the supreme authority is

bound to train and prepare them. Moreover, no citizen may render himself

incapable of military service, from fear of that danger. And the enrolled

soldier will by no means desert his assigned post out of fear, but rather

will fight to the last breath; unless he knows it to be the will of the

ruler, that he preserve his life, rather than the position; or else, in case

the place is not worth so much to the state as the lives of those citizens.



3. On the other hand, the supreme authority can take the lives of citizens

directly on account of flagrant crimes, and as a punishment, which, however,

falls upon the man's other possessions also. And at this point we must make

some general explanations of the nature of punishment....more
http://www.constitution.org/puf/puf-dut_213.txt



Response to Talent Scout
Talent Scout said that the most foolish Christians "Are the ones who think the God of the Old Testament is a Different God in the New Testament."

No, just that different covenants have different rules for the people involved.

TS earlier responded to religiouslib:
"This subject is about the Death Sentence.
It is not about the Innocence of Jesus Christ.
I do not think any man thinks Jesus was guilty of a crime, let alone the sentence of death.

God in His wisdom, knowing mankind and pre-determined the path to Glory, was right through the heart of the evil of mankind who will kill an innocent man."

Agreed, good point, now stay on topic yourself.

Religiouslib pointed out a specific objection to the death penalty, namely Matthew 5:38-39,
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Here is a case of a new covenant with new people, and a section of the Bible where Jesus is specifically laying out new rules for his people. One of them specifically addresses an OT law, and then changes it. The law addressed is about this topic, and is specifically changed to not allow Christ's follows to partake in retribution.

Response to Bullgod
Bullgod said:

"Before Jesus called on "him who is without sin"
to cast the first stone, he said, "The law must
be upheld."

This simple story speaks volumes about the bal-
ance between justice and mercy.

In my view, Jesus acknowledged that in this
world, there will be evil acts done, and those
acts should - "must" - be paid for. This is
justice."

I'm sorry, but I don't recall the part you spoke of. You said that Jesus said the law must be uphold. Read John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

And, according to your interpretation, immediately following this act, Jesus must have picked up rocks and stoned the woman. After all, he did say that the sinless one can cast the first stone.

Now, one might suggest that there weren't two witnesses, but that one might not have continued the chapter when Jesus said: Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


Acts 5:29
Standshisground,

We also have Acts 5:29

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Who is the most moral?
religious lib or God?

I hope that question as posed does not cause any man alive a problem to decide which is which.

God Himself imposed the Death Penalty for certain crimes, Capitol Crimes, He called Sin.


The Mercy Seat of God, is the Altar
Not the Court House, as religious lib wants it to become.

God has chosen the place of Mercy, and no where did He ever say it was to be found from Government or a Court Room.

From those two places, God has Demanded Justice and Execution of Judgment.
Judgment already Given by God Himself on murderers, rapists, etc.

To try and take the Mercy Seat of God away from its place is to fight God Himself and you are going to lose, and lose badly.

The death penalty
Was pronounced on mankind when he learned good from evil, and chooses evil.

Ge 2:17 -
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This is known as Procedural Law, the basis of the Law of Moses.

quote:
Procedural law provides the "process" that the case will go through (whether it goes to trial or not). The procedural law determines how a proceeding concerning the enforcement of substantive law will occur.




Moses was given what is called Substantive Law.
The Ten Commandments.

Substantive law refers to the body of rules that determine the rights and obligations of individuals and collective bodies.

Jesus Christ submitted Himself to the Law.
He fulfilled the Law by doing so.





Jesus was not speaking of the Law when He spoke about of love thy neighbor.

Paul did submit himself to the law, he submitted to both the Law of God as he submitted to the Law of Caesar that put him to death.

There is a time to be disobedient to the Law of Caesar, but be prepared to pay the price it brings with it as Paul did.

There is also a time to rebel, from Biblical Teaching by Samuel Rutherford.

Samuel Rutherford (1600-1661)
Lex Rex
A One of the greatest works on Government, the Civil Magistrate, Church and State ever written.

This, along with the writings of many others, is what guided the American Founders to Declare Independence.

There are many documents such as Lex Rex that went into this very subject in depth.
Like this one too:
A Treatise of Civil Power in Ecclesiastical Causes; Showing That it Is Not Lawful For Any Power on Earth to Compel in Matters of Religion, John Milton (1659).
Many such documents that address Law, Government and Religion, and the proper role of each.



Documents the Founders studied.

http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/primarysources.h tml






standhisground
here is where we differ,
you say this



but the corrupt practices may not necessarily be an infringement to you regarding what you are called to render unto God, and therefore not in themselves a justification for you not to submit to the government's laws

and i understand that but it is incumbent upon us to make an individual decision through prayer and bible reading as to what we feel is immoral and infringes on my rendering to God.

i believe that abortion and the death penalty do so.

hence, i will make a moral stand on those issues.

i find it interesting that many many Christians and Christian denominations have come to the same conclusion.

that is not the reason i believe what i do, but it says i am not alone

religiouslib
There is a simple Scriptural answer to your quandary about how far Christians must go in submitting to the government: Jesus' words of Matt. 22:21 to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. Even if the government is undeniably corrupt, as long as the government isn't demanding of you what only God has the right to demand, then a Christian is still called to submit to it. Remember, in Rom. 13:1-4, which I cited earlier, when Paul called on Christians to submit to the civil authorities, he was calling on them to submit to a government that he well knew wasn't exactly friendly to Christians' beliefs. If a government tells you that you are forbidden to pray or read the Bible, since the government is trespassing unto a prerogative of God, you are free to disobey that stricture - although the Bible never promises you won't suffer repercussions from that government for doing so. On the other hand, even if a government's spending of the taxes you pay to it are undeniably corrupt by any standard, if the government mints the money, the government has the right to call it back. Some things governments do are undeniably corrupt - but the corrupt practices may not necessarily be an infringement to you regarding what you are called to render unto God, and therefore not in themselves a justification for you not to submit to the government's laws.

this whole concept
that the law must be upheld is puzzling to me.

does that hold true if the government is corrupt.

Christians are to submit to the state even if it is morally wrong?

Jesus Christ was told to admit he was not the King of the Jews and he would be set free.

he refused to submit.

likewise Paul was killed for not submitting to the government.

is the premise here that anything the government does i must accept as a good Christian.


i don't buy it.

bullgod and others
It seems to me that this whole issue of capital punishment and the prerogatives of the state is satisfactorily resolved by what Paul said in Romans 13:1-4 regarding the existence of the institution of government and its role. Jesus taught that INDIVIDUALS should turn the other cheek - but He never made this stricture to GOVERNMENT (I don't, for example, recall Him challenging the right of judgment that Pontius Pilate was exercising for the state of Rome when Jesus stood before Him even though the power of the state to carry out an execution was clearly about to be unjustly applied to Jesus Himself, as even Pilate himself conceded). In Romans 13:4 Paul affirmed the right of the holder of governmental authority to wield the sword to inhibit and avenge evil - a power that clearly neither Jesus nor any writer in the New Testament authorized to INDIVIDUALS (as I recall, when Peter himself tried wielding the sword in an act of personal self-authorization, in the Garden of Gethsemane, rather than affirming him for it, Jesus told him to put the sword down). So to me, that's where the issue gets settled. I'm not saying that the Bible necessarily REQUIRES capital punishment for certain crimes - but I also see nothing in it that states governmental use of that practice is evil, either.

exactly, fencerdad
Although I would say the tension is between
justice and mercy.

Lots of problems arise from attempts to codify
mery into systems of justice.

eeegads
"Failing to execute him only enables his ability to continue his own self-destruction."

This kind of talk worries me. It could be used to justify acts that are "for the person's own good."

Capital Punishment has nothing to do with being loving. It has to do with justice. Loving and justice, at least in this world, are somewhat in tension.

religiouslib:
Before Jesus called on "him who is without sin"
to cast the first stone, he said, "The law must
be upheld."

This simple story speaks volumes about the bal-
ance between justice and mercy.

In my view, Jesus acknowledged that in this
world, there will be evil acts done, and those
acts should - "must" - be paid for. This is
justice.

His invitation that a sinless man throw the
first stone was really an invitation for the
mob to look into their hearts and realize that
all of them needed some measure of redemption
from the strict inerpretation of the law. This
is mercy.

The law itself cannot be concerned with anything
other than punishment of wrongdoing, the redress
of grievances.

I think Jesus called on INDIVIDUALS to recognize
their own need for forgiveness, and to be merci-
ful in dealing with others.

The law, however, "must be upheld". Mercy can't
be codified into law without rendering it use-
less and haphazard, as ad-hoc "exceptions" are
made case-by-case.

Speaking more generally, Jesus had little to say
about public policy - but much to say about man's
personal conduct in an imperfect world.

Does God condemn those He loves?


‘God loves all people, and we are told to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). If we are to love all people, this probably means not killing them.’ -Andrew Tallman


Mr. Tallman, the NT is clear that God’s love is demonstrated in Christ…

‘But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us’ [Romans 5:8].


But men outside Christ are under wrath because they are lawbreakers in rebellion against God…

‘God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already…and this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil…’ [John 3:17-21].


The unbeliever should rightly question you why there is so much teaching on hell in the NT if God loves all men. Does God condemn those He loves to everlasting punishment in hell?


Will you comment of Romans 9:13?

As it is written [Malachi 1:2-3], “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

In Romans 1 Paul said that he was not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation. Romans 9 is part of the gospel. Are you ashamed of it?

religiouslib writes
"let me assure you that a majority of Christians bellieve the death penalty to be morally wrong."

if that is true, and I don't know that the majority of American Christians agree with the above statement, it is sad...very bad hermeneutics...it was ok, now its not ok, thus we have now evolved to a more merciful level of consciousness, or something like that right? What does the Bible say? Is it morally acceptable or not? History and good hermeneutics combined compel one toward the knowledge that capital punishment has its place in the world for a reason.

"some very conservative and fundamental protestants support it to the max,"

if by "support it to the max" you mean interpret Scripture to agree with the need for capital punishment, then yes...

"but like slavery which can be justified biblically,"

justified as a historical reality...sure, but using Scripture to justify the American slave-trade is ridiculous...we lost a lot of good men over this argument and thank God those who interpreted Scripture correctly then, prevailed.


"most Christian denominations have come to the conclusion through prayer and soul searching that it is wrong in the eyes of God."

Again, has God changed His mind on the subject...or have we changed it for Him. Let's just admit we aren't governing ourselves by His standards anymore...we are running from them thinking our wisdom is greater than His. This notion that the NT God is somehow sweeter than the OT God is foolishness. Didn't the "Spirit of God" deal with Ananias & Saphira for what...lying? The NT covers a brief period in history whereas the OT covers many centuries of history. God has not changed...we have.



Deathstar chides...
"conservatives" for seeing the world as a "binary system", then paints Christian theology with the world's broadest brush without sensing even a whiff of irony. This from someone who fancies themself as some great thinker.

I really loved the wise crack about TH posters being too busy on their computers to have any influence on "public events". Like deathstar does anything more important with his/her time than go to Star Wars conventions.

One more thing, deathstar
You said that "when these threads degenerate into Bible study, I'm off". By now, you've been coming onto TownHall long enough that you should have realized that a good proportion of the columnists here actually BELIEVE the Bible or are at least sympathetic to it, and that the Bible is the very basis of their worldview. Why does it surprise you that the columnists here - and the conservatives who post to their columns - would quote the Bible? Haven't you seen the statistics that show that church attendance is as reliable a predictor of voting as any measure anyone has been able to quantify? People who take the Bible seriously overwhemingly vote Republican, those who don't overwhelmingly vote Democratic. For someone who has such obvious disdain for the Bible and those who believe it, you still sure seem to want to place yourself in the midst of such people often enough. Why?

If you want sites where you won't be exposed to what the Bible says, try the DailyChaos or HuffandPuff or MoveOn. I have only ever seen any of those sites once - one time not long ago, I went onto DailyKos just to see what it was like - and won't be going back. Frankly, I don't find what liberals have to say, with few exceptions, interesting (I'll admit that even Maureen Dowd OCCASIONALLY actually writes a column that's actually readable even for a conservative) - and I show I'm serious about that belief by declining to place myself amidst their chatter. Let them lie to each other: I'm not going to make myself a captive audience for it. Since you seem to have a similar attitude toward conservatives regarding OUR chatter, why don't YOU do the same?

Deathstar
Stalin and Pol Pot, among others, could hardly have justified their "pogroms and gulags" in religious terms even if they wanted to: they were ATHEISTS!

Did you care?
$ writes: 4:14 PM
talent scout
Wow.

Seriously?

The initial response to Akaqi--I mean, did you duck to make absolutely certain it flew over your head?
-----
kagi is a fool, a moron, an ignorant and complete boor.
You like him?
I am here and in your face as I stay in his, when I feel like it, otherwise I ignore the moron.





talent scout
Wow.

Seriously?

The initial response to Akaqi--I mean, did you duck to make absolutely certain it flew over your head?

Deathstar is typical
Deathstar is a typical liberal who votes for euthenasia, abortion rights, embryonic stem cell research and other means of ending life yet tries to justify allowing justice not to be served. How typically hypocritical. Liberals methods have killed more humans than the death penalty ever did in America, but because he is a kinder, loving liberal he can be intolerant and chastise Christians for their belief, but we are the intolerant ones? Isiaih 5:20 says, "Woe unto those who call evil good and good evil." He can justify anything in his mind and that is what is so sad. The Bible tells us to obey the laws of the land and if the death penalty is legal then so be it. When the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill." You need to go back to the original text because the Enlish language word has so many meanings. It really means not to murder someone. It has nothing to do with times of war, carrying out of justice, etc. So maybe if those, who try to make it something it is not, would study more and be more educated than deathstar, than maybe there would be more understanding in this world. But some people like deathstar, sadly will never get it.

I note that Deathstar
has left the room-apparently he doesn't want to see that the Bible does indeed support capital punishment, so ran off.

And, Deathstar, just in case you're still reading, having spent more time on the computer posting more remarks on this thread than I have, supppose you answer the challenge I issued earlier to show us where in the Bible capital punishment is forbidden.

The Inquisition was about Ferdinand and Isabella keeping Roman Catholic doctrine pure, by the way.

No need to defend or oppose on a
personal level, which is what this article is about.Most of us are not murderers or employed in a firing squad so capital punishment has no effect on us personally so there is not a huge compelling reason to defend or oppose on a personal level. IOW I am not less moral just because some states in our government support the death penalty.

On a national level however, there should be debate. Last year the secretary general of the UN (Ban Ki-moon) was nearly impeached early on in his position for stating that capital punishment should be left up to individual governments to decide even though the UN had already decided this issue for all countries. These small normalizing of the nations are what weaken our interests abroad. Gun control, abortion and capital punishment are stepping stones for further manipulation of US policy abroad, and more importantly at home.

Where to read the entire CP series
Just for the sake of clarity, this column is actually Part 10 in a series of 11. For whatever reason, Townhall never did publish Part 7 (which lays out the Old Testament case) or Part 8 (which lays out the New Testament case). If you want to read them all, you can do so at my articles blog:
http://andrewtallmanshowarticles.blogspot.com/ (Links on the right side)
or at Crosswalk.com:
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/commentary/11574674/(Links at bottom)
I hope this helps those of you who have been following the series. I'm sorry for the inconvenience. Thank you for all your insightful comments both in these posts and by email.

Sincerely,
Andrew

TS
"These voices tell me I am talking to a fool."

Usually a sign of a mental illness, perhaps you need to find someone that can help you. I am told there are many wonderful modern treatments that may can help you.

"The very one who you will get to know, in this life or the next."

Being a polythesis, you'll have to be more specific than that.

The most confused of all Christians
Are the ones who think the God of the Old Testament is a Different God in the New Testament.

With different views concerning sin, judgment and mercy.

Fact is, Jesus is the essence of the Lord God of the Old Testament, with God's Spirit dealing with sin, judgment and mercy.

Same God, the world just never knew Him as Jesus said:
Joh 17:25 -
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Jesus Christ is the very essence of God manifest in the flesh, the very same God who gave Moses the Law of Justice and Judgment on sin.

He has not changed from old to new, and is an Unchanging God.

Men simply do not understand the Mind of God cause they do not seek Him to know.

Deathstar is off...
to wash the Cheetos stains off his/her funny looking face.

What happened? Did you suddenly realize it was time to go to your psych 201 class? Good riddance troll.

You should understand the topic
Before commenting
Otherwise you show you are lacking any knowledge.
-------



Akagi writes: 1:33 PM
Hey TS
The law is totally temporal and your god whatever name you give him has nothing to do with it. And the only clown I see at this point is you.
-------
Law is temporal?
You envision day when men live with a law?
Knew you were nuts, but never dreamed you would give me the proof so convincingly.
--------

"Imagine yourself as a voice that can drown out the Voice of God if you want to."

Akagi writes:
Are you hearing voices now too TS? Perhaps you may want to see someone about that.
------
ts:
Yes
These voices tell me I am talking to a fool.
---------
Akagi writes:
And as for the "voice of god" which god would that be exactly?
------
ts:
The very one who you will get to know, in this life or the next.

deathstar
let me assure you that a majority of Christians bellieve the death penalty to be morally wrong.

some very conservative and fundamental protestants support it to the max, but like slavery which can be justified biblically,
most Christian denominations have come to the conclusion through prayer and soul searching that it is wrong in the eyes of God.


Denomination Membership in millions Position on the death penalty
Roman Catholic Church 60 Near abolitionist 1
Baptist Churches 36 Southern Baptists are retentionist 2; American Baptists are abolitionist 3
Non-religious 23 Mixed.
Methodist Churches 13 United Methodist Church is abolitionist. 4
Pentecostal Churches 10 Mixed. The Assemblies of God have no official stance 22
Lutheran Churches 8 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is abolitionist 5; the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod is retentionist. 6
Eastern Orthodox Churches 5 Abolitionist. 7
Islam 5 The Qur'an supports the death penalty, but there is a strong tradition of mercy within the faith. 8,9
Latter-Day Saints/Mormons 5 No official stance. 22,23
Judaism 4 Mixed; split along liberal and conservative lines.
Presbyterian Churches 4 Abolitionist. 11
Episcopal Church 2 Abolitionist. 12
Reformed Church in America 2 Abolitionist. 13
Jehovah's Witnesss 1.2 No official stance 26
United Church of Christ 1 Abolitionist. 14
Atheists 1 Mixed. 15
Neopagans Perhaps 1 Mixed. 16,17

Hilarious
deathstar writes: 1:43 PM
When these threads degenerate into
bible study, I'm off.

Bye, everybody.
-----
The article itself is a Bible Study, lol.


Feeling serene
About it all myself.
I did not read a word in Tallmans well written article, he critized, mocked or chided anyone.
He has brouhgt up the conflict over this subject in a well written piece.

Lon has no basis to come and attack the man for bring this subject up, let alone what he himself beleives about it.

Tallman's opinion is as legitimate on this subject as any of you posting here.
And more so in my own opinion cause he knows the subject and none of you do, "deathstar",.

When these threads degenerate into
bible study, I'm off.

Bye, everybody.

Confused argument
religiouslib writes: 1:12 PM
Christian rebuttal to death penalty
Finally, Jesus confronted the death penalty in his own passion. He himself was the victim of capital punishment and duly executed by one of the most magnificent legal systems ever constructed. William Stringfellow liked to point out that Jesus was even given an appellate process and a pardon process. Nevertheless, the gospel accounts make clear that Jesus was falsely accused and unjustly condemned. (John 18:38, for example) Jesus knew his innocence and the unjust nature ofhis torture and death. Still he spoke the healing words of forgiveness from the cross: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:24) Jesus broke the cycle of violence, not looking for revenge or harboring any ill will, he forgave those who killed him through the power ofthe state.

Is this not definitive? The cross on Christian Churches signifies not that we should advocate more crosses for others, but that we who are baptized into the death of Jesus have faith that we are raised with him to the new way of forgiveness and reconciliation, the life of resurrections.
--------
ts:
This subject is about the Death Sentence.
It is not about the Innocence of Jesus Christ.
I do not think any man thinks Jesus was guilty of a crime, let alone the sentence of death.

God in His wisdom, knowing mankind and pre-determined the path to Glory, was right through the heart of the evil of mankind who will kill an innocent man.

Just as the Lord knew Judas was a thief, called him to fulfill the prophesy of the book, and to betray the Lord into the hands of the evil men who sit in high places of power.

Try and stick to the subject and not confuse it as you are a confused person.

Talent Scout asks Lon
"Who made you the Judge?"

-------------

TS, there is a difference between judgements and observations.

Or are you just upset that anybody would question Tallman's column?

Hey TS
The law is totally temporal and your god whatever name you give him has nothing to do with it. And the only clown I see at this point is you.

"Imagine yourself as a voice that can drown out the Voice of God if you want to."

Are you hearing voices now too TS? Perhaps you may want to see someone about that.

And as for the "voice of god" which god would that be exactly?

Who made you the Judge?
Lon writes: 12:43 PM
somewhat tortured arguments.
It is not clear whether Tallman finds this argument convincing or simply a hurdle that the christian must get over to accept the death penalty. My guess is that latter. In earlier sections of this thread he advocated limits on the death penalty which in practice would almost end the practice. So it is hard to take him seriously when he gives the arguments which would seem to call for a great expansion of the death penalty.
--------
ts:
Tallman is doing a service to bring this up to talk about.

He is using the Bible for his research.
I think you have mis-judged him.

Where did he make any personal judgments about what a Christian must do?
He gives the ideas that bring this subject into conflict and judged no one on any personal basis.
Why you making a personal judgment on him?

Its a well thought out article on the conflict a typical Bible reader could struggle with.
He is doing a very good job with this subject in my judgment.


Execution is what it is
Whether or not it is necessary, serves a purpose, or is a good idea is certainly up for debate.

But there is something obscene about an attempt to tart it up as an act of Christian kindness.

Christian rebuttal to death penalty
Finally, Jesus confronted the death penalty in his own passion. He himself was the victim of capital punishment and duly executed by one of the most magnificent legal systems ever constructed. William Stringfellow liked to point out that Jesus was even given an appellate process and a pardon process. Nevertheless, the gospel accounts make clear that Jesus was falsely accused and unjustly condemned. (John 18:38, for example) Jesus knew his innocence and the unjust nature ofhis torture and death. Still he spoke the healing words of forgiveness from the cross: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:24) Jesus broke the cycle of violence, not looking for revenge or harboring any ill will, he forgave those who killed him through the power ofthe state.

Is this not definitive? The cross on Christian Churches signifies not that we should advocate more crosses for others, but that we who are baptized into the death of Jesus have faith that we are raised with him to the new way of forgiveness and reconciliation, the life of resurrections.


Christian rebuttal to death penalty
Jesus was confronted by the death penalty in John 8. The scribes and Pharisees made a woman stand before him to be judged. They said, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

His opponents hoped to use the law against him, to put him in opposition with the great leader Moses. They might be able to turn the faithful away from him, or even to bring charges. Beneath this tactic was an assumption that deep down each of us share about Jesus. The woman's accusers knew enough about Jesus to expect that he would be opposed to killing her, even by legal execution. We too know enough about Jesus to expect the same thing. We would be shocked if he had said, "Stone her. It is just to do so. It will deter other acts of adultery." Our expectations are met when he dismisses the question and the accusers by challenging any person without sin to cast the first stone. Then, Jesus turned to the woman and challenged her to repent: "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." again.

Christian rebuttal to death penalty
Jesus, however, reversed this law for those who would follow him. He named this law of retaliation explicitly and rejected it in favor of transforming initiatives that avoid vengeance or violence but instead confront the offender and seek the reconciliation ofrepentance and forgiveness. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said: "You have heard it said, `an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not set yourself in violent or revengeful resistance against an evildoer." (Matthew 5:38)

Jesus now limits the reform all the way down to zero. If "life for life" is seen in any way as justifying or requiring the death penalty, then Jesus directly opposes it. The Apostle Paul makes this clear in Romans 12:19, which most New Testament scholars believe refers to Jesus' teaching against retaliation: "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, `Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Surely, it is only those who are unfamiliar with the words of Jesus who can, with any integrity, quote the lex talonis of "an eye for an eye" as grounds for capital punishment.

However, Jesus refers just as directly and just as definitively to Lamech's Lament itself. He replaces all that this example of vengeance stands for with a higher call. He rejects the use of additional violence in the rationalization that it will be deterence to future violence. Jesus does this by pointing to Lamech's Lament and repudiating it when he replies to a question about forgiveness. He was asked how many times we are to forgive. Seven times? Jesus uses Lamech's figures and his rhetoric in order to contradict and definitively put that attitude aside: Instead of exacting vengeance, "not just sevenfold, . . . but seventy-seven fold," Jesus tells us to forgive, "Not seven times, but seventy times seven."


Justice or mercy?
We execute a murderer or we sentence him to life or a long time in prison. Along with the life sentence we need to provide the murderer food, shelter, medical care (what if he needs a heart, liver, or lung transplant does he get same in the name of humane treatment) and of course most of all we need to provide guards 24/7 to make sure he stays put.

What kind of life does a guard have spending his entire working life around murderers who in many cases would just as soon kill the gurard as look at him. It would seem to be a life sentence for both the guard and the murderer.

What do we do if he kills another inmate, guard or escapes and kills again? Put him back where he started and tell to him he needs to be nice? Saw a true crime program about a Canadian murderer who escaped and killed several more people.

Life gets a little complicated when you confuse justice and mercy. The blood of the murder victim cries out for justice! The only justice for the victim is the execution of the murderer.

Also
Anything can be justified, if one is willing to perform enough contortions.

Christianity has provided permission for many horrors throughout history - the inquisition was not abolished intil the early 19th century.

Lon
"Tallman is right that the Old Testament, which has much less emphasis on God as loving, is clearly supportive of the death penalty."

------------

I'm not sure why this should make any difference. If I had the time right now I could make a fairly long list of acts and practices that were condoned in the Old Testament.

Under the right set of circumstances, people will commit any act, beleive any myth, perform any number of horrors and atrocities and call them "good". We see this right in front of us all the time.

Personally, I'm just happy that many of the posters I see on TH have nothing else to do but sit at their computers and will probably have very little influence on public events.

capital punishment
How many of you who are against capital punishment find it acceptable to kill unborn babies?

I suspect there are a large number of you who are in this the group of people. The obvious solution to your problem with capital punsishment is to look at it as an extremely late term abortion

Showing Love
This week in Toronto a man who was "shown love" by what we in Kanukistan laughingly term "justice" -- and released on bail from a charge of threatening with dangerous weapons, took a couple of kitchen knives and butchered a woman he did not know, in a parking lot of a grocery store, in broad daylight, and then butchered her husband when he rushed to her defence.

Then this butcher compassionately tried to kill himself with these knives but was prevented by police officers with tasers.

The "object of Love" now gets top of the line treatment to bring him back to a healthy, vibrant life, and the children of the butchered couple get to beg the community for enough money to bury their parents and to try to figure out how to save the family home and dispose of the assets of their parents, who died intestate and without insurance in their early fifties. The officer who used the taser on the Object of Love is of course under investigation for Using Force on the Object of Love without saying Mother May I.

When the "object of Love" recovers, he will no doubt be sentenced to Time Served and released into the community secretly so that he can butcher another innocent bystander or two and be Loved once again.

What kind of absolute lunatic outside the "Justice" department of Kanukistan would consider that Love had anything to do with this scene?

Akagi
Law, enforcement, and justice have nothing to do with each other: ask any judge, lawyer, or private citizen who has had to pass through the system.

And you do?
Akagi writes: 12:43 PM
Punishment
but this has nothing to do with Jesus, God, or love. None of the three should have anything to do with it.
--------
Ha ha
Imagine yourself as a voice that can drown out the Voice of God if you want to.

We all will have a good laugh at your ignorance.

Hey pip squeek, yell it out louder and louder, and you will still have no effect on the Voice of God.

What a clown

Punishment
"I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them" ---Judge Smails.

It is not loving, it is not supposed to be. It is about justice and while tempered with mercy, some deserve no mercy. The person who hanged his 10 month old child because his girlfriend (and the mother of the child) broke up with him, the guy who killed the hikers in Georgia and Florida, John Couey who abducted and buried alive Jessica Lunsford--and on and on--none of these deserved mercy, but this has nothing to do with Jesus, God, or love. None of the three should have anything to do with it.


somewhat tortured arguments.
It is not clear whether Tallman finds this argument convincing or simply a hurdle that the christian must get over to accept the death penalty. My guess is that latter. In earlier sections of this thread he advocated limits on the death penalty which in practice would almost end the practice. So it is hard to take him seriously when he gives the arguments which would seem to call for a great expansion of the death penalty.

Many of the arguments above are clever given the restrictions under which they must be made. But the silliest aspect seems to be the idea that someone forcibly strapped to a chair and injected with chemicals has somehow "atoned" for his sins. After all atoning implies free choices, and it is hard to imagine anything less free than that process.

Tallman is right that the Old Testament, which has much less emphasis on God as loving, is clearly supportive of the death penalty. It does not seem surprising that the New Testament, which has much more focus on God as loving can be made barely consistent with the death penalty if one reinterprets it in the light of the Old and is a strongly anti-death penalty work taken by itself.

Aliveinhim
Where did I defend totalitarianism or statism or say anything about atheism? Is it possible for religious conservatives to see anything in terms that are not just opposites? The world is not a binary system, although that is the easiest way to comprehend it.

The Worst, most brutal systems seldom justified their progroms and gulags in religious terms - Stalin never tried to pretend that the murder of millions of political prisoners was an act of "kindness and Love", neither did Pol Pot, or Hitler.

And, if you think that the last bit of justified barbarism committted for religious purposes was the inquisition, you need to spend less time on the computer and more time reading history books.

Who gets the love?
Lets say a violent killer is on the loose, and this man is intent to kill any person who gets in his path.
Now everyone of you place your and you little daughter in this mans path.
He comes upon you suddenly with his face contorted by rage, with blood shot eyes gleaming with hatred, and focused on murdering your little girl.
You stand there and watch him do it to show him love.

Course, the daughter gets murdered and is shown no love by the murderer, but you in all your goodness showed love love love for the man who murdered your little girl.

You are so wonderful, you are my hero, as you are so good.(GOD FORBID!)

If that idea does not make a grown man gag, at the thought of giving this scumbag love, over his own daughter, and showing her the love by killing the scumbag himself to save her, then I would hope you die with her by the same killer, you scumbag.

You idiots do that who do not support the death penalty as God does for the crime of murder.

Spot on
It isn't only God who determines the fate of human life!! We humans have quite a bit to say in the matter. It's so obvious that I don't see how anyone can argue it, Deathstar.

How many get abortions, murder, or declare war--just and unjust--that decide other people's fate? God has given us strict conditions on the use of killing, not murder. Every book of the first 5-7 books of the Bible has one commandment in common: capitol punishment. Look it up.

Personally forgiving a murderer and the State (civil authority) putting him to death are simply not incompatible. Remember, the king carries a sword, in biblical language regarding the state, and not a pillow or pen. Compassion Christians have a hard time reconciling issues of justice and mercy. They presume to know better than God and the Church--they have no problem with euthanasian and abortion, but capitol punishment is out of bounds. Nice reasoning.

Is Capital Punishment Loving?
Yes, if its true Justice, its loving and merciful.

Lets suppose that no man ever murdered another person and we (mankind) was of the same nature of sheep.
Sheep do not kill one another, nor do many other animals.

But then not all men are like sheep or cattle and live and let live.
Content with their own lot in life and are harmless to any creature.

If mankind did not kill one another and be Fatherly, Motherly or Brotherly to one another, as God has said we should be, then no man would ever raise his hand against another man in violence to take that man's life from him.

Mankind is not so peaceful and meek, he is the exact opposite, and is selfish and violent.

By nature we develop wrath, anger, hatred, strife and murder.
Unless a man learns self control, he is subject to these frames of mind, the Bible defines as spirit.

The frame of mind a person is in, is his spirit he projects.
When a person is angry, they are filled with a spirit of wrath, and quite capable of violence.

If mankind himself was not violent, selfish, greedy, hateful, murderous, then we would have no need of a system of courts, jails or policemen.

Every one would just be loving and unselfish, and we would not even know what violence was, as it would not even exist.

So is God the Author of Violence?
This gets into deep Theology, The study of the nature of God and religious truth.

God's Nature is not violence, so where does it come from?
God named it sin.
Because sin exists in the world we live in, God gave us a Justice System to deal with the evil of men who will murder another person.
Its very loving and it warms my heart to see a killer die.
Its a wonderful loving justice to see a murdering scumbag get his just due, and reap what he sowed.

I feel love when the Justice System takes out one of these scumbags.
The quicker, the better


Well, Deathstar,
suppose you show us the Scriptures wherein capital punishment is forbidden?

Suppose you show us how atheistic statism is somehow more compassionate toward those who dissent, never mind those who murder? Last I checked, secularists have been responsible for the deaths of millions just in the last century. The Roman Catholic church hasn't had an Inquisition, in, oh, some hundreds of years, and isn't likely to reinstate that state of affairs anytime soon. Nor do the Massachussetts witch hangings intend to resume, last I knew.

Is Ted Bundy in heaven? Nobody knows for sure, since nobody was able to know his heart at the moment of his death (or any other time). For the record, Christians everywhere might hope so. But it is certain he will never again cause another family heartache through the murder of a beloved daughter. That is the point of capital punishment-to mete out to the murderer that which he imposed on an unwilling victim first.

Tallman is representative
of the Christians I find particularly scary and creepy. They are the ones who find religious
rationalizations for torture, death camps, hydrogen bombs, my lais, electric chairs, and putting sadistic despots into power (i.e., Pinochet).

Ugh.

the bible?
Tallman said, " God, who loves all men, has killed many of them both directly Himself and indirectly through His agents."

God said "Justice is mine, saith the loard"

If you are a bible-belieiving Christian, That means only God gets to decide the fate of human life. If you can make an exception for war, capital punishment, death by torture, then you can make an exception for abortion.

Life is life is life is life is life.

This proves the point
That Christians can spin anything, can interpret the bible to suit any ideology du jour, and can justify even the most un-christian acts.
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