Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, October 02, 2007
Alan Sears :: Townhall.com Columnist
"Hate Crimes" Legislation: A License To Kill The First Amendment
by Alan Sears
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Is Congress protecting the wrong victims, or pursuing the wrong enemy?

Maybe both, with the so-called "hate crimes" bill passed this week by the U.S. Senate, under the vigorous urging of Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy (D).

On the surface, this new legislation purports to offer federal protection of those individuals most likely to be endangered by their fellow citizens. But the bill's prime movers have a severely limited view of what constitutes "hate," American style.

House Democrats allowed as much before the bill even left their Judiciary committee.

They ignored the fact that federal law already prohibits acts of violence against individuals on the basis of race, religion, color, or national origin. They ignored the many state laws that already allow for the aggressive prosecution of such "hate crimes."

They spurned efforts by Republicans to expand the bill's protections to embrace such perennially high-profile targets of violence as pregnant women, senior citizens, police officers, and U.S. military personnel.

So, if this legislation is not about stopping "hate crimes" (no law can accomplish that)...

...and it's not about creating needed laws (where the laws are needed, they already exist)...

...and it's not about extending the existing laws to protect the broadest possible array of likely victims (Democrats in committee nixed that idea)...

...what is this "hate crimes" law about?

Primarily, it's about punishing people of traditional faith who dare oppose homosexual behavior.

The full-scale cultural assault just isn't working. For all the constant push for acceptance on television and in the movies, on the cable networks and the evening news programs, in popular magazines and news journals and websites … a significant segment of the American people, like former Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Peter Pace, still declines to embrace homosexual behavior.

They refuse to endorse same-sex marriage. They won't concede that something the Bible condemns is, in fact, morally acceptable and amenable.

Do they believe those who practice immorality should be beaten, flogged, tortured, or shot? No. Do they believe they should be publicly ostracized or humiliated? No. Do they want to see those who practice sodomy mocked or persecuted for their choice? No.

But neither will people of traditional faith say something is okay that God has said is not okay. Nor will they stand idly by while their children are taught to admire, and perhaps experiment with, homosexual behavior. And they won't start editing the Bible to say only what people want to hear.

That puts them on a collision course with those pressing the demands of the homosexual political agenda – including, sadly, many in the U.S. Congress.

So the Christians have to be silenced. That's where this new "hate crimes" law comes in. It is, in effect, a Congressional gag order on anyone voicing meaningful public opposition to homosexual behavior.

Democrats have made that clear. Introducing the bill on March 20, Representative John Conyers (D-Michigan) described it as an effort "to provide basic rights and protections for individuals so they are protected from assaults based on their sexual orientation." Since the legislation includes "intimidation" as a form of violence, it could soon be less of a crime to beat up a pregnant woman than it is to criticize homosexual behavior from a pulpit.

Republican members of the House Judiciary Committee tried to head off that travesty by adding an amendment to protect the rights of people of faith. Their amendment, offered by Congressman Mike Pence, R-IN, said "Nothing in this section limits the religious freedom of any person or group under the Constitution." Every Democrat voted against that amendment, and it failed.

Incredibly, Caroline Fredrickson, director of the American Civil Liberties Union Washington Legislative Office, calls the new law "a milestone for both First Amendment rights and civil rights." Only the ACLU (and its Congressional co-conspirators) could declare legislation that so openly violates the Constitution a triumph for the First Amendment.

And make no mistake: this law is unconstitutional. As former Attorney General Edwin Meese recently wrote, "Congress only has express constitutional jurisdiction over three crimes: treason, counterfeiting, and piracy on the high seas. Because the federal government is one of limited and enumerated powers, Congress must find authority in other constitutional clauses to federalize particular crimes."

Otherwise, Meese says, "such acts would violate federalism principles, the Tenth Amendment, or other structural limits in the Constitution."

In fact, there is no such authority … so Congress has decided it can live with the violation. Its members are flagrantly rewriting the law to suit the extreme and inflexible demands of their politically-correct power base. But don't let them kid you that they're just trying to stop "hate crimes."

What they really want is to keep their most vocal supporters pouring money into campaign war chests. And they can do that by voting to silence those who oppose homosexual behavior.

They won't succeed. Some courts may play along. Some Christians may be intimidated.

But in the end, these politicians' problem is with God. And God won't be gagged.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Alan Sears, a former federal prosecutor in the Reagan Administration, is president and CEO of the Alliance Defense Fund, a legal alliance employing a unique combination of strategy, training, funding, and litigation to protect and preserve religious liberty, the sanctity of life, marriage, and the family.

Be the first to read Alan Sears' column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

part 3
As I read the book of Romans and the Bible, and thank GOD I still have the freedom to read, study, and share the Bible and my faith with others, the fact is the act of homosexuality is an abomination to GOD and if it isn't then He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
You may not agree with me but can you honestly content that I should not be allowed to voice my opinion in this this greatest most free country on the planet. Thank you GOD for the freedoms we have, encourage us to use those freedoms to study your Word to have a ready answer for the Hope we have in your Promise of eternal life with You and strenghten us to use those freedoms to expend your kingdom by sharing what Your Son Jesus Christ did for all on the Cross at Calvary.

part 3
As I read the book of Romans and the Bible, and thank GOD I still have the freedom to read, study, and share the Bible and my faith with others, the fact is the act of homosexuality is an abomination to GOD and if it isn't then He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
You may not agree with me but can you honestly content that I should not be allowed to voice my opinion in this this greatest most free country on the planet. Thank you GOD for the freedoms we have, encourage us to use those freedoms to study your Word to have a ready answer for the Hope we have in your Promise of eternal life with You and strenghten us to use those freedoms to expend your kingdom by sharing what Your Son Jesus Christ did for all on the Cross at Calvary.

part 2
If you censor speech because you deem it to be hateful or hurtful of other people you are directly attacking basic tenets of what it means to be free, and synonymously what it means it be American. Please help keep us the Land of the Free. I do respect the rights of others to say, believe, and worship their god as they choose to do, as long as we all are afforded the same rights. Is it more of a crime or is someone more of a victim because the perpetrated belong to a "protected group". As Shakespeare wrote: If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? Although this was a line to uttered by the villian Shylock is it not just as true. It is my conviction that all life is equally sacred and equally deservering of equal rights and equal protection under the law; the unborn child, the elderly, the autistic, the mentally challenged, the homosexual, the heterosexual, the immigrant, the catholic, the protestant, the Jew, the Muslim, the Hindu, the black, the white, the red, the lawyer, the grocery clerk, the county highway worker, the factory worker. GOD created them all male and female. History shows us that when people groups are singled out and afforded more or less rights than other people groups it isn't long before the ones with less rights are persecuted and the ones with more rights become monsters lording over, punishing and even imprisoning or killing the ones who possess less rights and who are less of a person. GOD's view on equality has never changed, and GOD's view on sin has never changed. While we all fall short of the glory of GOD, we have all sinned, GOD's desire is for us to repent of that sin and that sinful living and to sin no more, to follow him. No amount of U.S. legislation can make sin not sin.

Hate Legislation
Where to begin? Mr. Ted Kennedy you never cease to amaze me or to disappoint me. This legislation, this attempt to regulate the emotions, beliefs and speech of all other human beings is really a new low even for you. What next pass laws against my dog to more severely punish him if the jogger he chases happens to be one of the "groups of people" who you deem need special protection because of the behaviors they exhibit. Do you think my dog is a profiler and more vigorously barks at and chases people based upon their life style choices. Why do you think some people deserve more or special rights or protective laws just because they belong to some very vocal subgroup. As I read the constitution, and thank God I still have the freedom to read such documents,we are endowed by our CREATOR with certain inalienable rights. My creator "GOD", the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the "GOD" of JESUS CHRIST (Matt. 27:46), the GOD of most all the founders of this great nation, is more jealous of his word than HE is of HIS own name. The Bible, GOD's inerrant infallible word, calls sin exactly what it is sin. It is GOD who is the judge of our heart our motives. It isn't man's place to do this. To him that would presume to trespass on the office of GOD, take heed.
The bill of rights guarantees among other things our freedom of speech. This is one of our greatest freedoms it sets our country apart from the oppressive, humanity denying governments around the world. I certainly do not agree with everything that every one says however I will defend some ones right to say it. Yes, I have served my country as a soldier in the military, eight years.

Hate Legislation
The "Hate Legislation" currently before congress amount's to the criminalization of good in favor of the "devirgination of innocence". This is worse than F.D.R.'s appointment of Klan member Hugo Black to the Supreme Court in 1934. This legislation will foment hate and bigotry for decades to come. The Democrat party of course will present it's self as the solution to the atrocity of it's own creation.
The examples of homosexual intolerance are legion. Just one is the ACLU suing the Boy Scouts of America for their refusal to allow activist scout masters. Why would activist homosexuals demand access to adolescent boys? Why aren't homosexuals who claim civil tenants raising a voice against such vivid examples of offensive behavior? I personally have been physically assaulted and harassed by such individuals. Once when young and unexpectedly naive I complained of sexual harassment to the personnel manager at my union job. I asked for help because they persisted even though I'd repeatedly declined any interest. The personnel director pushed his chair back, smiled and fondled himself right in front of me.
I admire a man like Mitt Romney who has never drank, or smoked and hopefully never had such deviation imprinted to memory. I hope for a world better then the one I know. Trusting that hope to the most intolerant and cruel people of my experience portends a very dark future for good in the world.

HereMeNow, thanks
Yes, thanks for the info. Of course, the homosexuals and the homosexualists don't want to hear this.

Luis
....I don't, so why don't you find the link that discusses the brow beating and political pressure that made the APA cave in.."

Go here: http://www.narth.com/docs/normalization.html

~snip~
A task force was set up to study homosexuality, but the members chosen included not a single psychiatrist who held the view that homosexuality was not a normal adaptation.

There followed riots at scientific meetings by gay activists who increased the pressure on the Psychiatric Association.

Bottom line: The APA was intimidated into removing it from the DSM. There is another article (can't find right now) that covers these activists got a list of names & addresses of WHO was attending an upcoming seminar/meeting and FALSELY wrote a letter on APA letterhead stating that the majority of members had already decided to remove it from the DSM. So voting at the seminar was just a formality. But was NOT based on any scientific/medical evidence.

len, you are trying too hard/continued
No, we don't think that homosexuals should be put in concentration camps. Our preference is that they abandon the disease spreading habits, that they go to Exodus or to a good $300-per-40- minute-session psychiatrist who has not been brainwashed by the APA, or become celibate. Or if those options for some reason are not possible we think that homosexuals should reacquire the modesty and discretion that they had 20 or so years ago. We are not trying to save homosexuals at all; we simply are trying to save ourselves from catching AIDS in a restaurant.

As to the obesity problem, two or three people have thrown this out as a distraction: YOU fight the obesity problem and WE will fight the homosexual problem. There are resources to fight both problems. How about that, I have combined all problems as you indicated I should. Great, simple solution.

The rest of your post is almost unintelligible, and whatever it says, it is you who says that unintelligibility should be the conservative message--we don't know what your qualifications are for telling us what the conservative message should be. The conservative message is stop the homosexual whining for special rights, stop the disease spreading, stop the indoctrination of school kids, stop the public perversions.

len, you are trying too hard
len writes: Thursday, October, 04, 2007 11:15 AM
luis dreams of an. sex destroy the cause
According to luis or so it seems, we should put HS in safe, clean concentration camps to stop the health problem from Aids. He does not use those words but sort of the implication of some crusade to homosexuals in their place. Of course, he will say he is trying to save them as did the Christians of old who wanted to save people by forced conversions or death or exile.
The problem is that we have a health problem with obesity, smoking and who knows what else. Louis might make a better case if he combined all problems instead of only choosing one which defeats his purpose because he is going to be seen by most as some nut job. OF course, some conservatives here wont have the cajones to say so. But he is an embarrassment to the conservative cause just as KOs and moveon are an embarrasment to reasonable liberals in the dem party.
A much bigger threat to our society and safety in neighbor hoods are single parent families who end up with unsocialized children. A much bigger threat to our society are the consequences of affirm action, victimology and demise of merit in judgeing people. That should be the conservative message. Luis does damage to the conservative cause because it allows to be seen as having nutjobs fixated on sex.
______________________________________________

"luis dreams of an. sex destroy the cause" What does this mean? continued next post

len
My little personal antecdotes can be statistically translated at large. I have no doubt the lesbians who live near year have some sort of strange upbringing. They probably are not aware of why they are homosexual or are in denial. All the high profile lesbians like Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'Donnel, Melissa Etheridge admit to having been sexually abused when they were young and yet each of them says, "But that's not why I'm gay." Well, whether they consciously admit that that is a contributing factor or not is irrelevant. I'm tired of people being afraid to state the obvious. And whether an immoral behavior is consensual or not, has nothing to do with why it's immoral. Do you believe having sex with animals is normal? Is it the individuals decision whether they want to have sex with an animal? There is not something inside of you that would tell you this is not normal? Perverse? Becareful Len, we all make judgements all the time about things that we know violate nature not just the Catholic Church. Homosexuals need our prayers and our help not our acceptance of their dangerous and harmful lifestyle.

jen
Glad to know you are an expert on HS by relying on your sister's ancedotes. There are two single lesbians with in 5 house of me; i have talked to them and none have the history you report.

Clearly, histories will vary; clearly in a non-accepting hostile evnoronment toward HS, HS will have problems that heteros dont have.

HS between adults is volunatary and consensual to mature adults. Pedophilia is not consensual; it like rape. So dont compare the two. Both those with hetero and HS tendencies are pedos.
You are such an expert what makes you think it is so easy to change. Some of have changed, but it is not easy and many dont want to change and lead productive lives; others dont lead productive lives; and many hetersexuals dont lead productive lives.

You have simple explanatons. Everyone who grows up in a catholic home does not take the religion seriously when older.
The moral is: Life is much more complicated than you make it.

to all homosexual posters . . 2
My sister works in the hospitality industry and for whatever reason there is a disproportionate number of homosexuals in this field. She said EVERY single homosexual she has ever met comes from some sort of dysfunctional upbringing. And just when she thinks this one may be different, it eventually comes out that that person’s mother was an alcoholic, or they were abused by their Uncle, or their father walked out on them, or they were physically abused by their father, or they were exposed to ########### at a very young age, etc. There is always some “reason” that comes out that could explain their homosexuality. And why of course a heterosexual could be raised in a similar situation and not now be gay, they probably too have issues that have manifested themselves in other ways due to their upbringing. I think it’s unfortunate that we are unable to speak about the obviousness of homosexuality. Why is it common to hear stories like the Larry Craig situation occurring with people with same-sex attraction? One would only hear about a homosexual seeking sex with a complete stranger in a public restroom. Why is that? Because there is something intrinsically disordered about such an attraction, where it really becomes a compulsion that they cannot control. They lose all sense of reason in order to fulfill this disordered desire of theirs. If homosexuals are born that way, how does that explain bisexuals? Clearly, homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuality is something that can and should be overcome. I pray for homosexuals all the time, because living a homosexual lifestyle can never bring true peace and happiness.

to all homosexual posters . . .1
I believe homosexuality is a disorder. I believe for whatever reason something happened during the sexual development of homosexuals that resulted in a disordered same-sex attraction. It is not much different really than pedophilia. The pedophile cannot help his/her strong desire to have sex with children. Something, somewhere along the line in the development of the pedophile went wrong. I do not hold the pedophile any more accountable for his/her feelings than I do a homosexual, but of course as a society we cannot allow the acting out of these desires. There has been no gay gene found.

luis dreams of an. sex destroy the cause
According to luis or so it seems, we should put HS in safe, clean concentration camps to stop the health problem from Aids. He does not use those words but sort of the implication of some crusade to homosexuals in their place. Of course, he will say he is trying to save them as did the Christians of old who wanted to save people by forced conversions or death or exile.
The problem is that we have a health problem with obesity, smoking and who knows what else. Louis might make a better case if he combined all problems instead of only choosing one which defeats his purpose because he is going to be seen by most as some nut job. OF course, some conservatives here wont have the cajones to say so. But he is an embarrassment to the conservative cause just as KOs and moveon are an embarrasment to reasonable liberals in the dem party.
A much bigger threat to our society and safety in neighbor hoods are single parent families who end up with unsocialized children. A much bigger threat to our society are the consequences of affirm action, victimology and demise of merit in judgeing people. That should be the conservative message. Luis does damage to the conservative cause because it allows to be seen as having nutjobs fixated on sex.

witch doctors here we come!
Swampfox writes: Wednesday, October, 03, 2007 11:47 AM
APA integrity
Luis writes, "You seem to have plenty of time on your hands, I don't, so why don't you find the link that discusses the brow beating and political pressure that made the APA cave in? Great reading. The APA has become as unscientific as it could be, as political as it could be, especially as a result of its cravenness to the homosexuals."

Luis, do you really think that the American Psychiatric Association lacks integrity? I guess that you would rather have your gay relations go to some evangelical christian to have the demons cast out of him or her?
_____________________________________________

We really think, nix that--we really know that most MDs and PhDs think that they are the greatest gift to the world, that they don't need a god--certainly not the god of the Christians, that they are 99% libs/lefties/secularists/humanists/Darwinists and I would sooner trust my homosexual relations, of which I have exactly none that I know about--on the other hand, if there are any, they are modest, discreet, to some evangelical Christians or even a witch doctor to have the 'demons' cast out of him.

The APA has lost its justification, its science under the pressure of academics, homosexuals, and homosexualists.

justification for anal 'intercourse'
Swampfox writes: Wednesday, October, 03, 2007 11:56 AM
Sewer rats
Alan writes

We have temporarily lost the political war on Homosexuality. It is a massive TACTICAL error in these times to invoke the Bible as Bible lovers are virtually crucified by the media +.

The TACTIC to attack homosexuality is that it is a MASSIVE HEALTH PROBLEM that destroys Gays with the potential to destroy all of society.

If you care about people then you got to care about the health of Gays also. The facts are

Anal and oral sex lead to HIV. If vaginal sex did all the United States would have HIV. We do not.

The gay immune system is vulnerable to pandemic flu's, TB etc and Gay's will be the primary carriers and will have to be shunned by all healthy people.

Yadda, yadda, yap.

Goebbels could not have done any better. Sieg Heil!

And, a little footnote: The 1919 flu epidemic that killed millions attacked just those that you would think that would not, the young and healthy
__________________________________________

There it is, folks: The justification for anal 'intercourse,' the 1919 flu epidemic killed the young and healthy.

I don't know if Goebbels could have done it any better or not, but Alan did a great job of reminding us about one of the main reasons for stopping the homosexual whining for special rights, homosexual indoctrination of school kids, and homosexual public perversions.

To: Ernest Will
I'm not really sure what you are calling me. Are you calling me a Christian, an evangelical Christian, a non-Christian or a radical Christian?
Whatever you have decided that I am, you have completely missed the point of my statement: "Sometimes I think maybe the muslim terrorists have a point".

The muslim apologists that frequent the media talk shows constantly point to our debased culture as an affront to Islam, thereby justifying their assult on America.

To the extent that America has become a country populated by people who are more concerned with the travails of high profile celebrities then they are with the operation of their government, then I agree with them. But, just because I agree with their appraisal of contemporary American culture does not mean that I harbor a justification for their violence; or that I endorse their treatment of gays. I am embarassed by our culture, but it's nobodies business but our own. Apparently you think that since I am opposed to homosexuals receiving special hate crimes legislation, then I must be in league with the terrorists and endorse their treatment of gays.

Would you not agree that a country populated by people obsessed with the likes of Britney, Lindsey and Rosie is not culturally stagnant? How about the vile lyrics of rap, slasher movies, movies that denigrate American history, pornography, the Folsom Street parade in San Francisco, open borders, how about a congress of democrats that denigrates the president and a four-star general. If you agree as I do that these are symptoms of a depraved and declining culture, then maybe you will understand my statement. Realizing that the enemy has an insight into our culture does not make that person an accomplice. There are a whole lot of things wrong with America and the culture is nothing to bragg about, but despite all that, America is still the best country in the world. I hope you agree with that statement.

xa and swamp fox
First, the so called hate crimes all is no help; as liberals do, they like to pass symbolic laws. All that law is add an extra penalty to an existing crime. Well, any jackas s who is going to commit some violence like those who killed mathew shepard or in Tx where 2 white guys pulled a black guy at the end of their pickup truck are not doing to an analysis of the law to figure what to do. I think passing such law backfires because it does not protect HS or blacks any better, but annoys many citizens as special priveleges. A murder is murder.
Social mores change slowly and law is some help but not sufficient

To: Swampfox and Ernest Will
Generally, I do not respond to thoughts that are written in response to my posts. This is not because I don't value feedback, but because I have noticed, when reading other posts, that the dialogue is frequently
off-subject and does nothing to inform subsequent readers as to the substance of the discussion. However, I feel compelled to respond to EW and Sfx.

With respect to Sfx, is the activity that I described not what you do? My statement was nothing more than a statement of fact as I understand it.
I believe that you have every right to live your life in any manner you choose. I would never want to see you, or any other person, harmed by either word or deed because of your lifestyle. Nor, would I decline to be your friend just because you're gay. But, I am completely opposed to any kind of special legislation that benefits one group over another. That is precisely what "hate crime" legislation is all about. Additionally, I am completely opposed to giving homosexual organizatons access to children too young to understand sexual orientation. As far as my thoughts toward lesbians and transgender people go, I don't think about them except when they glorify their lifestyle to children. Lastly, you supposed that I endorsed the treatment of gays in Iran. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I can understand how you came to this conclusion by my statement: "Sometimes I think maybe the muslim terrorists have a point". That statement was intended as an indictment of our sad and self absorbed American culture and not as an endorsement of the cruel culture of Islamic countries. See my response to EW for further clarification.

Homo's and the islam agenda
Conyers was having homosexual relations while in the middle east. As a form of blackmail he is now supporting things that muslim's will murder over.

What hate crime laws say about...
people is the real evil. When the law says some people are deserving of greater protection under the law, for whatever reason, that AUTOMATICALLY implies that the ones NOT covered by the law are INHERENTLY less worthy of protection. THAT is the true evil of Hate Crimes laws. All men are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Len
So, tell me for my own education where you live are you in fear of your life or in fear as blacks were before the civil rights era of going to a movie, a restuarant or what.
___________________________________________

First, thanks for the honest question. I would say that where I live in Chicago, I am not afraid of being beaten up or worse very often. When I used to live in a smaller city (100,000 people) in the Midwest, I did worry a bit when I'd be at a restaurant on what was clearly a date with my boyfriend. It was a college town that was fairly gay-friendly, but it was still clear that it was not acceptable to be openly gay. When I lived in a college dorm, nasty messages were written on my door a few times. Like Swampfox, I was not out of the closet and I was celibate. I was hardly flaunting my gayness. Those acts by the others on my floor certainly made for a sense of possible danger. When I was travelling with my boyfriend in California we tried to stay in an old gold rush town in one of the classic old hotels. The person working at the reception desk did not understand how we could possibly take a room that had just one bed. In the process of explaining it to her, we got many looks from a group of men sitting at the nearby bar. Needless to say, we gave up and went elsewhere for fear of that group. In that same town we had dinner together in a restaurant and were very careful to not appear gay despite the fact that we are two of the most normal looking guys you'll ever meet. I could go on (Jackson, Mississippi was a bit scary and I haven't even mentioned high school!) but you get the point. So in answer to your question, yes there are places where the threat of violence is real. Gays should not be forced to either be completely closeted (and as Swampfox and I have pointed out, even closeted gays get harrassed) or live in the gay ghetto of a big city. Not all gays like the city or like living around only gay people.

I should have moved.
In retrospect, I should have moved shortly after I graduated from college. But, I felt trapped by family obligations.

swamp fox
Now that you can relect with hopeful calmness, what would you do if straight fellow like your father and picked up quickly that you son was gay.
The easy part is what goes on in the confines of loving family. The hard part is what you do to prepare the child to manage outside the home. A simple solution, although not easy if one's living is in the small town, is to move to a city where there are gay networks. but what you do given your knowledge if the same thing happenend now and you were your father.

To len
I am not black. And, I am a college educated. My father was a well respected physician. Growing up I was part of the country club set. I came out the hard way. I had a bout of major, major depression. I became suicidal. I spent seventeen days in the hospital. The anti-depressants, Paxil and Wellbutrin have helped me, along with my family's acceptance.

swamp fox
I hope you are doiong better and are comfortable where you are now. I think if i remember that you are black; and have the impression that middle class blacks are not very acceptiong. Lower class rednecks and lower class of course as par for the course have less manners and politeness toward differences.

Answer
"So when you say in the small town where you were born or lived there are homophobes, what do you mean. Did adults insult you to your faces or was they were uncomfortable with you which of course made you uncomfortable with them."

The small town that I lived in was 50% black and I would say 50% redneck. I was in the closet for a long-time. And, I was celibate. I did not date women and I was not an active gay male. But people put two and two together.

swamp fox
How typical is Alan Keyes. The two lesbians who live quite near have none of this. One who is just moving is obviously a lesbian and her whole family is down here helping her fix up the house. They are quite educated; mother a graduate of Swathfmre, the father a small contractor, one sister, straight graduated standford with a 3.8 and working for microsoft. the other lesbian who parks her motocycle at my house comes from a tradition german family and told me that her father had difficulty with this, but none of the hostility and he has adapted.
I dont how typical this is. But I imagine in the last few years families have adapted just as families adapt to other differences from the norm, such as handicapped. Clearly for a young child growing up HS is a handcapp; if not in his own family in the larger culture. When you are tiny minority you are always subject to that; blacks kids living in the hood who are interested in becoming smart are socially isolated in their own communities. Just look at the venom from liberals, black and white toward Justice Thomas.
I think the solution is that HS should all becomes conservative both politically and conservative in life styles. That would really shake up the so called homophobes and fascist liberals.

Think
Len writes, "I gather than cities are a more friendly place. Of course, that has always been case for any minority.j"

People who are GLBT sometimes have to move away because they are disowned by their own families. Alan Keyes has disowned his daughter Maya, because she is a lesbian.

swamp fox
I wonder if "homophobic" does jusice. For example, if I were dropped into an Amish neihborhood I would be uncomfortable I imagine. I imagine if I were outside with my girlfriend on sunny day where sexy bathing suit for both of us and having a bottle of gin on the table and playing some beatles tunes that I might feel strange as some kind of freak even if they said noting; and amish would say nothing. The christians here might learn something from The Amish. Nevertheless, unless I converted to be an Amish in lifestyle, I would not feel free. Where I live now where people are conservative in the general sense of the word, I would have no problem doing such; there would be limits, I would not be naked; i would not be boisterously drunk nor in your face, And I would not feel uncomfortable of living in sin so to speak with a girl friend, transient or permanent.
I dont want to call the amish homopbobes because they may dissaprove of my life styles and not too happy to have their children hang around me where they might think a bad influence.
So when you say in the small town where you were born or lived there are homophobes, what do you mean. Did adults insult you to your faces or was they were uncomfortable with you which of course made you uncomfortable with them.

swamp fox
I gather than cities are a more friendly place. Of course, that has always been case for any minority.j

To len
I had to move. My small hometown was overflowing with homophobia.

Hate Crimes Legislation
Andrew Carnegie once said this to Mark Twain:

Carnegie: "Mr Twain, like it or not, this is a Christian nation"

Twain: "So is hell, but we've learned to live with it."

swamp fox
I kknw you are against. Let me assure I can read. But go back to my question, I was just trying to inform myself whether in fact what I experience here in phila where I see no obviouis disrespect toward gays, at least adults,
what your exprience is where you live. Educate me

Fear
To len

"So, tell me for my own education where you live are you in fear of your life or in fear as blacks were before the civil rights era of going to a movie, a restuarant or what."

I think that all gays have lived in fear, to some extent. Whether it is real or imagined. Why do we have "to come-out"? We grow for the most part isolated, even within our own family. Afraid to tell them. Most of the GLBT community leave their home towns and go to more friendlier towns or cities.

moral vs legal
the only thing anyone is entitled legally is the right to liberty, property, life.
You are not entitled that people like you. From a moral perspective one might say people should be neihborly, who they are under no legal obligation to do so.

IT seems that much of HS crying out is to get approval--moral approval. IF that is the case, they are going about it in the wrong way by in your face demands they they be treated equally morally; yes, legally they have the same rights as all.

So those religious groups who criticize HS on some moral grounds are withing their rights.
HS should take a hint from the jews. They did not belly ached back in the day when they were ostracized and there was latent anti-semitism. They created their own structures; country clubs; excelled and so forth. They did not ask for hate crimes or special favors.
Cleary, if were gay and live in fundmentalist area which did not approve of my life style, I would not complain, I would do what others have done;
Move to a more comfortable community.





Am. has a low HIV infection rate
for vaginal infection because of the strain of HIV most common here.

That incidence is not true in most of the world, where women are about equally infected as men. Look at Africa and Asia.

So don't crow about the low female infection rate here. It could change.

On the other hand, male homosexuals have lowered their mortality into the low 50s, which is close to the mortality of my grandparents' age. Whereas, most Western mortality is spiraling where into old-old age.

HIV is not the only health problem either, because along with it comes higher rates of all veneral diseases and their side effects which can be damaged liver function, heart, and circulatory functions.

Male homosexuals are more highly educated and have more discretiionary income than most other segments of the pop., so their voices are heard more loudly, but they are killing themselves at a terrible rate and making that choice themselves.

I believe in no hate crime leg. for any group. It leg.'s against thoughts and the First Amend. guarantees sacredness of private thought. We crimninalize actions and should not give diff. verdicts for the same crime because of the mental persuasion of the perpetrator.

As to Teddy K., I write him weekly that JFK must roll over in his grave every time Teddy opens his mouth. What he says is almost diametrically opposed to everything JFK said over 40 years ago. That also shows how much the Dem. Party has veered off a left cliff during that time.

To len
I am against the legislation!

swamp fox
A question for you. First, I live in Phila; i have lesbian neigbhors within 5 hourse of me; i am thnakful because they have driven up the value of property

but the point is here in Phila I see no acts of violence or disriminaton. So, from my vantage point I am lost to what all the noise about is in protecting gays etc

So, tell me for my own education where you live are you in fear of your life or in fear as blacks were before the civil rights era of going to a movie, a restuarant or what.
It seems to me that the threat to HS is way overblown. IF we want to talk about who is threatened it is police and especailly by an element in the black community which percentage wise commits most of police lynchings.

Teddy's Legacy
So the Senatorial Sot from Massachusetts is behind this travesty as well, eh? Quite a legacy Teddy will leave behind: a dead woman at the bottom of a tidal pond, immigration legislation that is tansforming this country into a Third World dumping ground and "hate crimes" legislation. You really have to wonder what he's drinking.

Wayfinder's wrong!
Wayfinder writes, "The APA is a lobbying group, not a society of true scientific or medical discourse." That would be great news to every licensed hospital in these United States.


Sewer rats
Alan writes

We have temporarily lost the political war on Homosexuality. It is a massive TACTICAL error in these times to invoke the Bible as Bible lovers are virtually crucified by the media +.

The TACTIC to attack homosexuality is that it is a MASSIVE HEALTH PROBLEM that destroys Gays with the potential to destroy all of society.

If you care about people then you got to care about the health of Gays also. The facts are

Anal and oral sex lead to HIV. If vaginal sex did all the United States would have HIV. We do not.

The gay immune system is vulnerable to pandemic flu's, TB etc and Gay's will be the primary carriers and will have to be shunned by all healthy people.

Yadda, yadda, yap.

Goebbels could not have done any better. Sieg Heil!

And, a little footnote: The 1919 flu epidemic that killed millions attacked just those that you would think that would not, the young and healthy.

APA integrity
Luis writes, "You seem to have plenty of time on your hands, I don't, so why don't you find the link that discusses the brow beating and political pressure that made the APA cave in? Great reading. The APA has become as unscientific as it could be, as political as it could be, especially as a result of its cravenness to the homosexuals."

Luis, do you really think that the American Psychiatric Association lacks integrity? I guess that you would rather have your gay relations go to some evangelical christian to have the demons cast out of him or her?

du writes:
prove it

Prove it to me that you find the poster for the Folsom Street Festival as offensive and hateful as anything you have read here. Otherwise, you are just another moonbat hypocrite.

Van, a desperate person, flailing...
Van writes: Wednesday, October, 03, 2007 7:41 AM
Wild Bill
How paranoid can you be? Considering how it's Christians who demand that gays should be denied protection from violent crimes
________________________________________________

...like a punch drunk boxer.

There is absolutely no one, anywhere, Christian or Buddhist or Methodist who demands that homosexuals should be denied protection from violent crimes. The existing laws do a nice job of protecting homosexuals from violent crimes already.

APA prostitutes
Swampfox writes: Wednesday, October, 03, 2007 10:45 AM
American Psychiatric Assn.
Here is a link to the American Psychiatric Association position paper on homosexuality. I would suggest that most of you read it.

http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm
_______________________________________________

You seem to have plenty of time on your hands, I don't, so why don't you find the link that discusses the brow beating and political pressure that made the APA cave in? Great reading. The APA has become as unscientific as it could be, as political as it could be, especially as a result of its cravenness to the homosexuals.

Swampfox
Swampfox wrote,

"True, no gay gene has been found, yet."

We haven't found any evidence of pixies yet, either. That doesn't mean they exist. Believing something exists on no evidence whatsoever and pining for the day that you'll find it is not science, it's faith. The notion that homosexuality is somehow inborn is not true, nor is there any evidence to conclude that homosexuality is immutable. The APA is a lobbying group, not a society of true scientific or medical discourse.

Back to the notion of hate crime; what makes additional punishment based on motive different than premeditation is to punish Thought and Feeling, rather than the act. To commit Premeditative Murder, you have planned before-hand to murder another human being, and perhaps planned on a manner to avoid justice. That is an act, not a feeling or a thought. You may plan on murdering someone and not go through with it and this is not a crime to be punished. Premeditation is not the crime. Murder is. One act is followed by another. But punishing on the basis of motive doesn't punish the act, it punishes the motive, and this is wrong. We all have motives to commit crimes, but that doesn't mean we should all be punished for them.

du, great exponent for libs/lefties
du writes: Wednesday, October, 03, 2007 10:59 AM
prove it
Until any of you against this legislation can prove there has actually been prosecution of anyone based on what they've SAID alone, BRING THE PROOF!
_____________________________________________

Gosh, what can I say, du? My crystal ball is on the blink, but I will get it fixed so that I can prove that the libs/lefties are hypocrites who want to shut up those of us who are sick of the homosexual public perversions and whining and want to SPEAK OUT to stop it.

My cousin's neighbor has a futurama techelec screen, though, and I'm going over there to see if Teddy, the Swimmer who left his date to drown in his car because he was too drunk and too concerned about his reputation to attempt to get her out or report the incident, or any bleeding heart judges, like on the Ninth Circus Court, want to stop SPEAKING OUT about the disease that homosexuals spread with this hate crime legislation.

du, great exponent for libs/lefties/homosexualists

I'm against the legislation too
But not in principle, I'm mor worried about it's applications.
But the same people who haven't objected to it protecting those because of religious background, know that such protection won't be reversed.
The hysteria around this covering gay and transgendered citizens looks suspiciously selective and even the lies being spread around it make one wonder at that selectivity of not wanting inclusion of a group that actually IS in physical danger more than the other groups.

As for offensive speech and expression.
The Phelps clan got away with disrupting the most sensitive and emotionally difficult times a family can suffer. Until they started doing it at soldier's funerals.
Then a whole different group of people decided to be offended and muzzle this family.
The dirty laundry of just where selective outrage rears it's head again on that one.

THE GREAT LIE
Alan

We have temporarily lost the political war on Homosexuality. It is a massive TACTICAL error in these times to invoke the Bible as Bible lovers are virtually crucified by the media +.

The TACTIC to attack homosexuality is that it is a MASSIVE HEALTH PROBLEM that destroys Gays with the potential to destroy all of society.

If you care about people then you got to care about the health of Gays also. The facts are

Anal and oral sex lead to HIV. If vaginal sex did all the United States would have HIV. We do not.

The gay immune system is vulnerable to pandemic flu's, TB etc and Gay's will be the primary carriers and will have to be shunned by all healthy people.

They spread all kinds of STDS because they are promiscuous and not monogamous.

7000 people per day are dying per day from HIV/AIDS that is a result of Anal and Oral sex the signature sex of Gays. The GREATEST LIE perpetrated is that the HIV Pandemic is heterosexually transmitted by vaginal sex. The only reason this is not widely known is to protect the Gay community because it would mean saying their type sex is the cause for the already million of deaths.

TACTICS relating to HEALTH must now be the weapon of choice or the terror of this sex cult will continue its triumphant journey to destroy the family, our nation and the health of all.



prove it
Until any of you against this legislation can prove there has actually been prosecution of anyone based on what they've SAID alone, BRING THE PROOF!
Especially where hate crimes laws are in place.
Until any of you usual gay baiters can prove you'd be impartial jurors and would fairly prosecute a violent crime against a gay person, then this legislation wouldn't be needed.

And in some way, the very people protesting the most against it, know that in some way, they are part of the cause of hate crimes.
Considering the kinds of hateful and dehumanizing things that are said by many on this thread...I have no faith that you'd put away someone who'd assaulted a gay person and defended themselves with the typical 'he made a pass at me' line.
Looks like enough of you buy into the propaganda that gay people are sexually agressive and so out of control, that they deserve what they get for having the audacity of existing and not being ashamed of it.

Van wrote
"Considering how it's Christians who demand that gays should be denied protection from violent crimes your claims are bit thick. What gays want is equal protection, similar proetction you enjoy"

Last time I checked there were laws on the books that punished perpetrators of violent crimes against all citizens - gays included. When laws get passed that add additional penalties on because of the victim's sexual preference, or religion or race or gender (must I go on?), that is not equal protection or even similar protection. That is special or preferential protection. That is wrong.

The image of Justice will have to be redone with one with the eye blind half off and the scales tilted.

Wrong
I am gay and against the legislation but what Dr. D writes, is incorrect.

Dr. D writes, "Now, with hate crimes legislation in place, it becomes a crime simply to say things that offend particular groups."

American Psychiatric Assn.
Here is a link to the American Psychiatric Association position paper on homosexuality. I would suggest that most of you read it.

http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm

Nobody Has A Right Not To Be Offended
Hate crimes legislation essentially makes it a crime to offend certain groups. This is entirely incompatible with the concept of freedom of speech. We have long held that freedom of speech was more important than anyones desire not to be offended. If they do not want to be offended, they simply do not have to listen, but that should not silence the speaker. Now, with hate crimes legislation in place, it becomes a crime simply to say things that offend particular groups. We cannot have this and remain a free people. This is a part of political correctness, and that is killing our nation. It must be recognized for what it is, and it must be stopped now.

It is not surprising that Ted Kennedy is the ramrod behind this measure. He is one of the main proponents of PC and all that seeks to destroy America. He is one of the most vicious men in the US today.

I only need to read the name
Ted Kennedy and my blood pressure escalates. He's a criminal...period! Anyone that continues to vote him into office is no better, period.

Swampfox writes: 02, 2007 8:14 PM

Do any of you folks know about Fred Phelps and his little Westside Baptist Church? I don't want to shut down his brand of fundementalist church. I will have to warn you what he preaches is not pretty. Here is his website: http://www.godhatesfags.com/

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

I happen to know a little about Fred Phelps and have had some e-mail communication with him. This guy makes gays look like the Mother Teresa by comparison. His church is really a tax shelter consisting of only family members. He has zero Bible knowledge and liberally misappropriates a few verses of God’s word for his jihad. He only knows those verses. When I got into any verse not dealing with anal sex he had absolutely no clue.

Actually I started an e-mail correspondence to ask him to lighten up on his jihad against the religion of Analtheism. The vile, the hate, that came out of this guy was over the top for merely suggesting he moderate a bit. This was way before he started his protesting soldier’s funerals.

The guy is not a Christian as so many claiming to be are not today and merely use Christianity to advance their private agendas.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Blacks Conservative?
touj. writes:, 02, 2007 8:03 PM

According to numbers kept by the FBI, the overwhelming majority of hate crimes are committed against African Americans. Maybe conservatives are really concerned about not being able to express racism.

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Those crimes are almost all Black on Black and they are a monolithic voting block of 92% liberal.

touj. writes:, 02, 2007 7:57 PM
This columnist said, "Primarily, it's about punishing people of traditional faith who dare oppose homosexual behavior.”

...it implies that people of traditional faith should be able to do whatever they like to Gays (or women, blacks, asians, catholics, etc.)

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Not "do" what they want, but have free speech like everybody else. If I was into the religion of Analtheism, I’d be more concerned about my butt buddy, not some Christian.

“Gay men's domestic violence: Where do we go from here?”
by Ken Stofft
mincava.umn.edu/papers/kstofft.asp

"However, as I continued this search I came across another health issue faced by our community, gay men’s domestic violence. Domestic violence is the third largest health risk for gay men, topped only by HIV/AIDS and alcohol and other drug abuse."

Also:

"When CUAV was founded nineteen years ago, no one imagined that domestic violence was a problem in the community. The truth of the matter is, however, that you are much more likely to be injured by someone you love than by a gay-basher on the street. In fact, research indicates that between 25-33% of us will experience domestic abuse in our lifetimes." cuav.org/dv.htm


Anal sex abuse is rarely documented. Consider:

“…..seven states define domestic violence in a way that excludes same-sex victims; 21 states have sodomy laws that may require same-sex victims to confess to a crime in order to prove they are in a domestic relationship. Barnes, It's Just a Quarrel, American Bar Association Journal, February 1998, p. 24.”

Also

“…same-sex batterers use forms of abuse similar to those of heterosexual batterers. they have an additional weapon in the threat of "outing" their partner to family, friends, employers or community. Lundy, Abuse That Dare Not Speak Its Name: Assisting Victims of Lesbian and Gay Domestic Violence in Massachusetts, 28 New Eng. L. Rev. 273 (Winter 1993).”

To Deskjocey
Thanks for your kind thoughtful input.

We know the ACLU is ...
staffed by pedophiles and are ardent supporters of NAMBLA. We also are totally cognizant of the goal they are intent on achieving.
Does any one truly believe that the people in power aren't carbon copies of the demonic Imperial Senate of ancient Rome, with their attachment to power and vice?
Problem with Americans is that they won't threaten their amusements and commit to the fact that good and evil are not relative but actual and in the end they will be swallowed up by their fantasies and lack of courage.

various responses
Well Meese is wrong because of “incorporation” that did away with Federalism and states rights.

Anyway this isn’t a free speech issue it is a freedom of religion issue for the anal sex folks to worship their religion of Analtheism. People should not be allowed to criticize their god and should be executed immediately without trial.

DevilsPaintbrush 02, 2007 5:56 PM

Is it a hate crime if you leave a floozy to suffocate in a partially submerged car?

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

No, only Christians have hate. Ted considered it a mercy killing akin to abortion.

Swampfox writes: 02, 2007 6:46 PM

Can someone tell me how did Iran get rid of all their GLBT community?

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

The same way they will do it here in 25 years. Conversion. That is conversion from life to afterlife.

Swampfox writes: 02, 2007 7:51 PM

My question to evangelical Christians is, if "the" gay gene was found would they then support abortion of these unborn children?

DESKJOCKEY WRITES

Of course they would.

Seriously, why would they? We know from libtards that being poor causes crime and killing yet you don’t hear Christians demanding poor people have forced abortions. We know alcoholism seems to be genetic and Christians merely ask they abide by the law. There are people with hetero genes that seem to be able to be single without sex and I know the “gay gene” is much more powerful and demands recruitment of new members in the skuls and endless need to find a partner in airport rest rooms, yet I suspect some that believe themselves gay don’t engage in such ventures. So Christians would probably just say, why not follow the law and keep it in your pants.

Janice Shaw Crouse
Janice is a friend of mine. Please quote the article you are referencing about her approval of attacks on anyone, anywhere. I must have missed it.

wayward
You're probably right.

I, personally, think it's time for a limited line-item veto so that the President can get rid of stupid little ammendments like this one.

Fortunately, as I just mentioned, there's no conceivable way that law should stand up in court. Even the 9th Circus should see that.

Absolute Stupidity
The Feds telling a priest, preacher, rabbi, or imam (or you or me, for that matter) that he cannot use "intimidating" language toward homosexuality ("Repent, lest you go to Hell," or some such, I suppose) is so unconstitutional that you don't even have to invoke the First Amendment, the original 1787 text being enough. In any event, I suspect it violates at least three separate provisions of the Constitution: The expressed enumeration of Congress's powers in Article 1, section 8 (which does not include regulating the behavior of the citizens of the several states), the Freedom of Religion and Speech and the Press provisions of the First Amendment, and the Tenth Amendment’s delegation to the States and the People those powers not EXPRESSLY given to Congress nor prohibited to the states. And I'm sure I could find more if I looked hard enough.

The Way to Kill Hate Crimes Legislation
The surest way to kill hate crimes legislation is to threaten legal action against public schools which denigrate my Christian religion by promoting promiscuity ("comprehensive sex ed") and homosexuality ("heather has two mommies", "King and King", etc.) It seems to me that the secular humanists are simply demonstrating their hatred toward Christian ideals when then promote such perfidy.

Am I the only one who...
cant' figure out how hate crimes legislation was added to a defense appropriation bill?

Either oppose homosexual activity or oppose the troops!

I suppose I had better start reading the agricultural bills to find out which books have been banned so i don't wind up on some terrorist watch list.

I think we need to "re-think" our legislative process.


Am I the only one who...
cant' figure out how hate crimes legislation was added to a defense appropriation bill?

Either oppose homosexual activity or oppose the troops!

I suppose I had better start reading the agricultural bills to find out which books have been banned so i don't wind up on some terrorist watch list.

I think we need to "re-think" our legislative process.


Where's the outrage
Where's the outrage in the Muslim Community over this--doesn't their religeon have specific punishments for being gay? Aren't they supposed to be stoning them or something--Oh wait they hang them with Government approaval--but I digress--I would like to know how many Imams will be hauled before the courts for preaching "hate" against homesexuals.


Wild Bill
How paranoid can you be? Considering how it's Christians who demand that gays should be denied protection from violent crimes your claims are bit thick. What gays want is equal protection, similar proetction you enjoy. But that is too much for religious right wing nutjobs who openly endorse violence and other human rights violations against gays abroad and would do it in USA too given the chance.


There's exactly one way...
...and ONLY one way that homosexuals will be able to rule this nation unchallenged, and I don't think they have either the means or the will to do it.

They will have to kill every last Christian and Jew in America... or at the very least, they'll have to try.

First amendment
And by the way: since when has first amendment been about right to beat up or kill gays in the name of religion? Because the bill talka about violent crime ONLY.

Now, why do Sears and other Christianist lobbyist keep on lying about the scope of this law unless thay want to encourage violence? And ifv they don't wihsh to do that they shouldn't have anything against this law. After all Christianists are protected by smilar laws... or are you suggesting that gays should have les protection... but then of course you are.

If there's someone in this world demending special rights, it's religious right wing Christianists.

Hate Crimes NOT Thought Crimes Redux/2
Unless and until the so-called Christians STOP fostering this cycle of violence against gays, there will be a crying need for special protection of gay men, women and children. Such protection does NOT constitute "special rights". On the contrary, such protection merely acknowledges that some people are the specific targets of violence and therefore their ordinary human rights need something a little extra, since the civilized norms of the community have broken down in those cases.

Hate Crimes NOT Thought Crimes Redux
When the law references the idea of "intent" that idea is a THOUGHT. If you commit a crime, the thoughts that motivated you to commit the crime have always been part and parcel of determining how severe your punishment should be. That's just a simple fact of the law and reality. I figure most here can cite their own list of instances. I have already suggested the difference between first degree murder and manslaughter essentially boils down to what thoughts the perp had in his head at the time.

The law also recognizes mitigating factors, such as the age of the perp, on the theory that a typical ten-year-old, let us say, is not capable of making the moral distinctions and the ability to act on them that an adult is expected to make.

I agree, that if we lived in a tolerant society, where citizens were not moved to fever pitch in their irrational hatreds, a so-called "hate crime" would probably not make much sense.

In many respects American society has resolved a lot of its racial hatreds and some of its religious hatreds. Unfortunately hatred of gays is one of those evils that have been and continue to be aided, abetted, and fostered by Christian churches and Christian leaders.

It is not enough for such leaders to say that they do not favor executing gays on the spot when their followers use the Bible and so-called Christian teachings to justify repeated acts of violence and murder against gays, and the emotional abuse of gay children and gay adults by family members. Such abuse, and there is probably not a gay man or woman who has not experienced such abuse, begets violence and hatred. Where do you think homophobic hehavior originates? It begins in the family.

Rejecting a youngster because he is gay is a form of emotional abuse. Other young people see it and see that their parents and other adults feel justified in singling out that odd gay person. Thus begins the cycle of violence and hate.

Swamp, you are being silly again
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 02, 2007 6:46 PM
No gays in Iran!
Can someone tell me how did Iran get rid of all their GLBT community?
______________________________________________

You are being silly again: You know perfectly well that Iran did not get rid of its homosexuals and confused people. They are repressed, oppressed, depressed, intimidated, in the closet. On the other hand, they don't have anything like the Folsom St Fair in Iran, they don't have loose cannons/teachers pushing the homosexulists' programs in schools, and no whining for special rights such as 'marriage' and hate crime legislation.

touj, I'll explain the purpose of the...
touj. writes: Tuesday, October, 02, 2007 7:57 PM
This columnist said,
"Primarily, it's about punishing people of traditional faith who dare oppose homosexual behavior. '

This is an incredibly simplistic and stupid thing to say...it implies that people of traditional faith should be able to do whatever they like to Gays (or women, blacks, asians, catholics, etc.)
_____________________________________________

...law.

You may consider it simplistic, and it is not complicated, but I presume to say what Sears meant: People of traditional faith, and anyone, really, should be able to say whatever they want about homosexuals, and directly to them also, unlike in Sweden and Canada where similar legislation can, and in fact, has, put a person in jail for quoting Scripture. People of traditional faith should also be able to say whatever they want about women, Blacks, Asians, Catholics, etc, that is within the limits of sedition and libel law, and maybe a couple of other instances. What homosexuals and homosexualists want is to shut up anyone who says anything contrary to the homosexualist mission, anything that might hurt a homosexual's feelings, anything that gets in the way of the homosexualists' taking care of the homosexual victims.

I meant "what the answer WOULD BE"
I meant "what the answer WOULD BE"

Swam, you are confused
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 02, 2007 7:51 PM
Gay Gene?
No one knows why someone ends up gay and another one not, at this time. My question to evangelical Christians is, if "the" gay gene was found would they then support abortion of these unborn children?
______________________________________________

Swamp, you are confused and trying too hard. Your question to the evangelical Christians (not to Catholics?) is like, not perfectly like, but like enough, saying if my aunt had wheels she would be a cart. Find the gay gene FIRST, then ask the question. I know what the answer is, but I'm not telling.

Swamp, Jamie and I have told you
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 02, 2007 6:41 PM
American Psychiatric Assn
I just hope people will be able to recognize hate when it is aimed at the GLBT community or any other group of people.
_____________________________________________

Swamp, both Jamie and I have told you 200 or 300 times that only the homosexualists who are using you for their ends (no pun intended) want you to believe that heterosexuals hate you, but that is not so. Of course, there is the occasional person who is driven by hate at a fundamental level, but our motivation is simple: To eliminate the homosexual whining for special rights, the disease spreading, and the public perversions--some of these are easier than the others. But there is no hate. In fact, hate is an emotion that gets in the way of getting the job done. I keep telling Mellor, skinny, Greg, du, you and a couple of others this, but it seems that you do now want to believe what is in front of your eyes--even Jamie knows about the homosexualists' ends (no pun intended).

touj.

touj. says,
(BQ)
This columnist said,
"Primarily, it's about punishing people of traditional faith who dare oppose homosexual behavior. '

This is an incredibly simplistic and stupid thing to say...it implies that people of traditional faith should be able to do whatever they like to Gays (or women, blacks, asians, catholics, etc.)
(EQ)


touj. I oppose you and your attempted normalization of homosexual activity. Have I laid a finger on you in my opposition?

What this bill does is make my opposition to you illegal and punishable. Is that what you what?

elong

elong writes: Tuesday, October, 02, 2007 5:19 PM
Gov't waste at its finest

(BQ)
I wonder how much it cost to get this non-legislation pushed through.
(EQ)


Only the collective soul of the nation. We are now the second Sodom.

Bobaz
When you wrote, "Sometimes I think maybe the muslim terrorists have a point," I was reminded of Rosie O'Donnel's claims that radical Christianity is just as dangerous as radical Islam.

I find her claim reprehensible and indefensible. She is responsible for fomenting hatred.

Though you haven't identified yourself as a Christian, there are some on this board who equate everything they hate in life with "evangelical Christians" and assign what you wrote to that fear and hatred, whether they can back it up or not.

Do us a favor, and stop trying to make Rosie's point for her.


To Big Daddy
True, no gay gene has been found, yet.
-------------------------
Big Dadddy says, "Iranian Gays = Burhka. they're in hiding.

"Gay Gene" = Unsubstantiated. I would vote for gene therapy and forgo the abortion. I turn it around on you though; what would liberals do? Being that they are for unrestricted access to abortion? Would they still be so gung-ho about abortion if there was a rash of women having abortions because the "gay gene" was discovered while in-utero?

Abortion = The Real Hate Crime.
---------------------------
Gay Iranians aren't in Burka's they are living in fear, in the closet.

Gene therapy or abortion would, in my opinion, be wrong. And, I agree that some liberals would opt for abortion if the gay gene was found for perhaps the same reason that you would opt for gene therapy. Who would want to have a child that has to live in a society that is so hostile to them? I have to believe that there has to be a reason why God created GLBT people.

Swampfox
I thought so... I also see you are a history major (on another thread). I hold a degree in anthropology, and I'm the only conservative anthropologist you'll find!

SwampFox...
Iranian Gays = Burhka. they're in hiding.

"Gay Gene" = Unsubstantiated. I would vote for gene therapy and forgo the abortion. I turn it around on you though; what would liberals do? Being that they are for unrestricted access to abortion? Would they still be so gung-ho about abortion if there was a rash of women having abortions because the "gay gene" was discovered while in-utero?

Abortion = The Real Hate Crime.

To YLG
YLG says, "Totally off the subject here, but I wanted to tell you I love your moniker!" I was born in Charleston, SC and raised in a small town is South Carolina. My family on all sides have lived in South Carolina before the American Revolution. Francis Marion was the original Swampfox.

Swampfox
Totally off the subject here, but I wanted to tell you I love your moniker!

To Bobaz
Let me state once again for the record, I don't believe in hate crime laws.

To Bobaz
Bobaz writes, "There's more to this then just prosecuting people who oppose the democrats celebration of one man sticking his erect member in the anus of another man and ejaculating into his lower colon.

What this is really about, is stopping any and all opposition to teaching the activity described above to elementary school children.

We have to be living in the most screwed-up country in the world. Sometimes I think maybe the muslim terrorists have a point."

Bobaz, I am a male who can pass for straight, a lot of us can. Growing up I have had to just sit there and hear the same things that you have just written, time and time, again. From my friends and some family members. What do you think about lesbians and transgenders? I suppose that you think that the Iranian regime has the right idea when it come to the GLBT community? Complete suppression! Summary execution.

You can only take my word for this, but I knew that I was gay at the age of five. I have one older brother and three sisters who are all heterosexuals.

Hate Crimes?
There's more to this then just prosecuting people who oppose the democrats celebration of one man sticking his erect member in the anus of another man and ejaculating into his lower colon.

What this is really about, is stopping any and all opposition to teaching the activity described above to elementary school children.

We have to be living in the most screwed-up country in the world. Sometimes I think maybe the muslim terrorists have a point.

touj. writes:
don't want to get cornered into defending this bill, because I am very ambivalent about it and I see both sides and both arguments. To my knowledge, however, the bill does not criminalize speech, or did I miss something?

Also, as I said before, the ACLU is very expicit about the bill pertaining only to those instances were a victim is chosen because of race, religion, etc.

And you trust the ACLU you maintain any kind of consistency when it pertains to this law. The ACLU makes a living off hurt feelings, and interpreting the law any way it can to make it fit a particular set of circumstances

Seems everyone

Just accepts they have some right to make such a law, either agreeing with it or disagreeing.
Why would we all accept something unconsitutional to begin with?
---------
quote:

And make no mistake: this law is unconstitutional.
As former Attorney General Edwin Meese recently wrote,

"Congress only has express constitutional jurisdiction over three crimes:

treason,
counterfeiting,
and piracy on the high seas.

Because the federal government is one of limited and enumerated powers, Congress must find authority in other constitutional clauses to federalize particular crimes."

Swampfox writes:
"I think we all know that Fred Phelps is a nutcase. Along with the mad mullahs of Iran. And, frankly, I could add a number of evangelical Christians who I think fill their coffers by spewing hatred toward the GLBT community."

Would you mind identifying a few of them, if you've got a minute?


largecaliber
I think we all know that Fred Phelps is a nutcase. Along with the mad mullahs of Iran. And, frankly, I could add a number of evangelical Christians who I think fill their coffers by spewing hatred toward the GLBT community.




Tom writes:
All a so-called "hate crime" does is add extra punishment if the perp commits a crime and is motivated by hated the law finds especially vicious and loathesome. It is not a bad way for the law to express the civilized community's outrage that some of its members still think it is acceptible to commit crimes against certain people, if they are black, or, in this case, if they are homosexual.

If the perpetrator of first degree murder is given a death sentence or life w/o parole, what is the point of adding a hate crimes charge to it?

Lumberjack Mother of 4
"My question to you is once what people believe or feel becomes a crime where does it stop?"

I don't want to get cornered into defending this bill, because I am very ambivalent about it and I see both sides and both arguments. To my knowledge, however, the bill does not criminalize speech, or did I miss something?

Also, as I said before, the ACLU is very expicit about the bill pertaining only to those instances were a victim is chosen because of race, religion, etc. That's different from robbing a black man who happens to be black. What I'm unsure about is how the law will always be able to distinguish the difference.

what traditional people think about gays is irrelevant to this issue. Hurt feelings are irrelevant also, unless the bill explicity states that hurting someone's feeling is against the law, which is what this columnist suggests.


Swampfox
Re: 7:51 Gay Gene. The answer is no to aborting those who might have a gene that causes sexual orientation. Abortion is wrong for birth control, gender control, and/or outcome control.

Re: 8:14 fred phelps, please don't use him or his followers as an example of what Christians are. I am an ambassador of Jesus Christ, Jesus loved sinners of which I am one. Jesus wants me to mirror His behavior to others. My mirror is cracked, dirty, and dull (I am a poor example of Christ's behavior), however, I don't hate sinners.

Judgement is in the realm of the Almighty, phelps is not god, and I call into question his (phelps) behavior, the first fruit of the Spirit is love (Gal. 5:22), and I see no love in phelps behavior.

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2) Please look at phelps in this light, I do, and I know a little of what I'm talking about.

In Him,
lc

Tom
First, gays have all rights except one: marriage. Some states are currently working on that. That's why I always refer to 'gay right'.

Second, ALL CRIMES ARE HATE CRIMES!!!

Swampfox
Yes, there are some Christians that are virulent in their beliefs. And there are some in the gay community that are virulent in their views as well. I normally ignore both these types: if the only way to get their message across is to be hateful, then they have lost the argument.

Hate Crimes NOT Thought Crimes
The law has always recognized the difference between an accidental murder, such as manslaughter, and intentional murder, which is murder in the first degree. Intent (that is, what motivated the perp) is the key distinction between these two crimes. The dead man is dead in either case.

All a so-called "hate crime" does is add extra punishment if the perp commits a crime and is motivated by hated the law finds especially vicious and loathesome. It is not a bad way for the law to express the civilized community's outrage that some of its members still think it is acceptible to commit crimes against certain people, if they are black, or, in this case, if they are homosexual.

In a country where gays are routinely murdered and otherwise victimized by a hate-filled presumably heterosexual and definitely Christian majority, where wingnut preachers preach hatred against gays, yet pretend they are "only" preaching what the Bible says, a hate-crimes bill helping to protect gays and to express the country's particular revulsion toward anti-gay behavior is good news and welcome news.

That Republicans can't find a way to support the rights of gay Americans is further proof that Republicans do not really believe in individual rights for ALL Americans, and that they absolutely do not believe in the Declaration of Independence, where the protection of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is the very reason for government.

Thank you.
YLG says, "That idiot does not speak for the vast majority of Christians." Thank you, YLG.

I consider myself a conservative in my politics but, liberal in my religious beliefs. Yes, I am a Christian. I was raised an Episcopalian. However, I have a hard time understanding what I consider hate that is espoused by some evangelical Christians toward the GLBT community.


Robert writes:
Yeah ok
But neither will people of traditional faith say something is okay that God has said is not okay. Nor will they stand idly by while their children are taught to admire, and perhaps experiment with, homosexual behavior. And they won't start editing the Bible to say only what people want to hear...

but I am not for sure that any of this would fall under the legislation.

I dont quite see the "view with alarm" here...

Sorry

Robert
Yeah ok
But neither will people of traditional faith say something is okay that God has said is not okay. Nor will they stand idly by while their children are taught to admire, and perhaps experiment with, homosexual behavior. And they won't start editing the Bible to say only what people want to hear...

but I am not for sure that any of this would fall under the legislation.

I dont quite see the "view with alarm" here...

Sorry

Robert

Well, there went the neighborhood.

"Hate Crimes" is a Silly Term
"Hate Crimes" is a silly term -- do people think that criminals choose their victim because the like them?

Murder and assault are already crimes. What more is necessary?

"Asinine" is too kind a word to use for people who promote these silly laws -- a donkey knows that it doesn't matter whether someone hits him because that someone hates donkey or just because he was in easy reach.

touj. writes:
This is an incredibly simplistic and stupid thing to say...it implies that people of traditional faith should be able to do whatever they like to Gays (or women, blacks, asians, catholics, etc.)

My question to you is once what people believe or feel becomes a crime where does it stop? Should Howard Dean pe prosecuted for saying he hates all Republicans, or those lovely gentle people at DU and DailyKOS for expressing their hatred for and desire to see death, disease or devastation happen to members of administration should they be prosecuted? Or do hate crimes laws just apply to conservatives and or Christians?

No hate laws for any special group
If I am murdered, prob. by one of my former students, I don't want to have my attacker treated as less deserving of the needle or the hangman or Old Sparky because I wasn't hated enough.


Swampfox
That idiot does not speak for the vast majority of Christians. I was taught to love all my fellow beings. That said, if someone were to do you injury while on my turf, rest assured I would do everything in my power to make sure justice was served. ALL crimes are hate crimes.

Lumberjack7392
And, I have voted for George W. Bush twice.

WHATEVER THE ACLU SAYS --

I'm against. If they've taken up a cause, you can take it to the bank that it is not something in favor of the Constitution -- or the citizens attempting to live within its confines (which are broad, indeed).

Fred Phelps
Do any of you folks know about Fred Phelps and his little Westside Baptist Church? I don't want to shut down his brand of fundementalist church. I will have to warn you what he preaches is not pretty. Here is his website: http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Swampfox writes:
I am gay
I am gay and against this bill. If someone should kill me because I am gay, I would, however, hope that the killer would be vigorously prosecuted

I would hope so too, to the maximum penalty allowed by law. Any crime of violence is at its heart a hate crime.

I remember when James Byrd was dragged to death outside Jasper, TX. Liberals were screaming that Texas needed a hate crimes law. One of the perps got life in prison and the other three the death sentence. As GWB said at the time, "What more can we do to them?"

And
According to numbers kept by the FBI, the overwhelming majority of hate crimes are committed against African Americans. Maybe conservatives are really concerned about not being able to express racism.

This columnist said,
"Primarily, it's about punishing people of traditional faith who dare oppose homosexual behavior. '

This is an incredibly simplistic and stupid thing to say...it implies that people of traditional faith should be able to do whatever they like to Gays (or women, blacks, asians, catholics, etc.)


Citizen
If, for any reason, there was a sudden rash of physical attacks against Christians, what side of this issue would be on?

While I understand the arguments against this legislation, the ACLU has warned against prosecutorial overreaching and said that the law must apply only to crimes where a victim is selected purely for race, religion, gender, etc.

So, with that in mind, how would you feel if, as a Christian you were nervous about going out after dark or alone in a public place?

Gay Gene?
No one knows why someone ends up gay and another one not, at this time. My question to evangelical Christians is, if "the" gay gene was found would they then support abortion of these unborn children?

JASinCA
"Personally my experience is that evangelicals feel like they have open season to attack gay people but have an awfully thin skin when it comes to criticism leveled their own direction."

How many times have you seen or even heard about evangelical Christians physically assaulting a gay person, since you are speaking of personal experience?

I just did a Yahoo search of the words "evangelical, christians, attack, assault, homosexual" and did not turn up a single news story of any such attack.

Criticism, surely. But that is kind of par for the course in the big city. If you are going to define verbal and written disagreement with gay activism as an "attack", then you may indeed believe people need to be prosecuted for thinking a certain way.

Yes, who is pushing for this?
I've not seen great mobs of protestors pushing for this legislation. I suspect that hate crimes legislation doesn't show up in Congressmen's mail or e-mail inboxes.

Who is it demanding that we be saddled with this?

Besides the ACLU?

Why don't we just add a mandatory extra year to any and ALL felony convictions? Make misdemeanor assault and battery for ANY reason now a felony offense?

That would show no favorites. The ACLU would no doubt oppose this as it likely did "mandatory sentencing" and "three strikes, you're out" legislation.

No gays in Iran!
Can someone tell me how did Iran get rid of all their GLBT community?

What about the existing hate crimes law?
This article is completely disengenuous. Current Federal hate crimes laws cover race, color, religion, and national origin. The author claims that the recently passed law is unconstitutional.
Then where is his call for the repeal of existing legislation, which surely must be unconstitutional as well?

And forder's post is of course incorrect. Hate crimes against white male Christians are already the law of the land.

Personally my experience is that evangelicals feel like they have open season to attack gay people but have an awfully thin skin when it comes to criticism leveled their own direction.

American Psychiatric Assn
I just hope people will be able to recognize hate when it is aimed at the GLBT community or any other group of people.

PS
Yes, I know I sounded ridiculous. I have no way to prove it. This just seems surreal.

Something is scratching my brain....
This bill is so ridiculous because who can pass a bill based on Thought Crimes and Preference, so I have to wonder....

Are these libs in office being blackmailed by any militant gay groups? I know it sounds a little tinfoil hat-like, but seriously, how can adults who represent their states who were smart enough to get elected, try to pass a bill like this? Even they MUST know it's wrong.

That's why I think someone or some group is pulling the strings behind this one. I have a feeling that a lot of skeletons in closets were opened up and threatened to be exposed if this was not put through. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Because really, Thought Crimes of Preference....that's not even sane.

I am gay
I am gay and against this bill. If someone should kill me because I am gay, I would, however, hope that the killer would be vigorously prosecuted

chilling
Well, there's always the veto.

Do we really want to start punishing people because they don't think about things in the prescribed manner?

We'll still have that veto ability if we turn out to vote here shortly. Keep it in mind.

A Democrat in the White House doesn't mean we'll be just shifting our course on innocuous things like taxes or $5000 handouts to newborn babies.

It'll mean we could start seeing people penalized for thinking differently.

the hypocritical liberals strike again
I can hardly wait until the Muslims take over America thanks to the ongoing cancerous destructive actions of the liberal/socialists, because then there won't be anymore liberal/socialists, ACLU, Planned Parenthood or homosexuals. In the meantime, how tragic to see our great nation turned into the fulfillment of Orwell's 1984. As 'elong' wrote above, "the Constitution will be rendered completely worthless shortly."


Question

Is it a hate crime if you leave a floozy to suffocate in a partially submerged car?

1984
Today, on its internet news page, MSN had a story with a header that proclaimed that Isiah Thomas had been found "guilty" of sexually harassing an employee of the New York Knicks.

There is just one problem. The story couldn't possibly be true. You see, "sexual harassment" is not a criminal offense. It is not something for which the perp is arrested, charged, arraigned, and eventually tried.

Sexual harassment is a tort. An actionable offense for which the perp can be sued in civil court.

Thomas wasn't "found guilty". The jury found in favor of the plaintiff.

So what does this have to do with "hate crimes"? Simple. If we had a functioning "hate crimes" law in effect, Thomas would be looking at jail time for what he said to the plaintiff.

And if they can do it for "hating" a black, or a "Jew", or a woman, they can surely do it for any other "unacceptable" notion to which a person gives voice.

Just like Orwell's 1984.

Gov't waste at its finest
once again. There was an unconstitutional need for a federal statute, why? Hmmm.....This should not be called a hate crime law. It should be called a thought crime law.

Buckle up folks....the Constitution will be rendered completely worthless shortly.

I wonder how much it cost to get this non-legislation pushed through.

Hate Crimes?
It will soon be law that everyone will have "special" protections under the hate crimes legislation except, of course, white male heterosexual christians.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.